Browse content similar to 24/01/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Jeremy Corbyn calls on Britain to accept more refugees and economic | :00:39. | :00:46. | |
migrants, as the Port of Calais is forced to close overnight | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
after migrants attempted to force their way onto a Channel ferry. | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
David Cameron appears increasingly confident he'll bag a deal on EU | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
reform next month, including new measures to reduce EU migration | :00:59. | :01:01. | |
In the first of three Sunday Politics debates, | :01:02. | :01:07. | |
the leave and remain campaigns go head-to-head on immigration. | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
And speaking exclusively to this programme, Ed Miliband's former | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
pollster Deborah Mattinson criticises Labour's official report | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
into why the party lost the general election for failing to face up | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
Seconds out. and a massive missed opportunity. | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
The Welsh and UK governments are squaring up for another fight | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
This time it's over new trade union laws. | :01:32. | :01:39. | |
The Conservative's 7/7 candidate has now launched his | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
-- the conservative's Mayor candidate has now launched his | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
action plan. And with me, as always, | :01:52. | :01:53. | |
the best and the brightest political panel in the business - | :01:54. | :01:55. | |
Nick Watt, Beth Rigby and Janan They'll be tweeting | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
throughout the programme So, the Port of Calais was forced | :01:59. | :02:00. | |
to close for a while yesterday after migrants managed to breach | :02:01. | :02:07. | |
security and board a ferry. Amateur footage captured | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
the moment a group managed to break through security fences and head | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
towards the P ferry. The incident happened | :02:14. | :02:15. | |
during a protest at the port, The head of the Road Haulage | :02:16. | :02:17. | |
Association here in Britain has renewed demands for the French | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
military to intervene. As it happens, | :02:22. | :02:23. | |
the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, was in northern France yesterday, | :02:24. | :02:25. | |
visiting the migrant camps While he was there, | :02:26. | :02:27. | |
he reiterated his calls for the British Government to do | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
more to help migrants. I talk to people all over | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
the country and not everyone is that cold-hearted, not everyone | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
else has a stony heart. They are prepared to reach out, | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
and I think we need a response And indeed Germany has | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
done an enormous amount, other countries have | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
done varying amounts, and I think we should | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
be part of helping to bring a European-wide support | :02:58. | :03:00. | |
to people, and that's what I'm Jeremy Corbyn yesterday. Beth, what | :03:01. | :03:13. | |
we make of the story, the government will allow unaccompanied children | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
refugees, already in Europe, to come into Britain? Some of my government | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
sources have suggested that is not what David Cameron would like to do, | :03:25. | :03:27. | |
if you think about how he dealt with the crisis in August, he said we | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
will take some Syrian refugees but we will take them from the camps in | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
Syria and around Syria, we will not take them from Calais, because he | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
thinks this is a push factor and it makes people come over. What the | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
government might end up doing, they might agree to take refugee children | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
unaccompanied, but only from Syria and the Middle East, not from | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
Calais. What about the kids who have made it here? They could be bad way. | :03:56. | :04:03. | |
Nick? The signals on government, they have not made any decisions yet | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
and the announcement is not imminent, but Beth makes a very | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
important point, the Prime Minister said you do not want to encourage | :04:12. | :04:14. | |
people to make that journey, therefore the instinct is to take | :04:15. | :04:16. | |
people from the neighbouring countries. Apart from unaccompanied | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
kids, they have come across in terrible conditions, and they are in | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
Calais and Dunkirk. The call to take these children, from that report, | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
that says that is a fair proportion of the 26,000 unaccompanied children | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
that have come to Europe. The figures in that report are | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
terrifying, in 2014, of the 13,000 unaccompanied children that ended up | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
in Italy, 3000 went missing, and of the African children that went to | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
Italy, half of them had been subject to some form of sexual abuse, it is | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
the most horrific figures. That 3000 figure, endorsed by Jeremy Corbyn, | :04:56. | :05:02. | |
also endorsed by the cross-party International Development Select | :05:03. | :05:03. | |
Committee, said there is edible pressure on the Prime Minister on | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
this one. -- formidable. The humanitarian case has been strongly | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
but by Jeremy Corbyn and others, but it is marginal. 3000 children, that | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
would be great for them, but 37,000 migrants have come to Greece in | :05:19. | :05:25. | |
January alone, and the mud has not even ended, ten times the number | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
that came in last January -- the month. The problem is getting bigger | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
and bigger, and the response has been wholly inadequate. It has, it | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
looks marginal, but that is about as much as you can expect, until there | :05:41. | :05:47. | |
is EU wide agreement about how to distribute what you might call the | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
burden of the influx, but there is nothing close to that agreement and | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
there's not even a deal between the EU and Turkey about ceiling borders | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
and dealing with human traffickers let alone a deal within the EU about | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
which country bears how much of the burden. Until then, you just have | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
these improvised solutions, 3000 here, France taking a bit more, and | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
there is no certainty that the unaccompanied children are | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
overwhelmingly Syrian, there is the suspicion that Syrians travel as | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
complete families and the unaccompanied children are | :06:21. | :06:26. | |
disproportionately from Somalia, for example, similarly distress, but not | :06:27. | :06:29. | |
the problem that they think they are dealing with. This plays into the | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
referendum question, there is the nervousness in the in campaign, that | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
a referendum in September, after a summer of large sums of migrants | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
coming in, kids or otherwise, would affect the result one way or | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
another. That is a big story, and we will come back to that at the end of | :06:47. | :06:48. | |
the show. Last week, the long-awaited autopsy | :06:49. | :06:50. | |
into Labour's defeat at the general The report by Margaret Beckett | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
concluded that Ed Miliband wasn't judged to be as strong a leader | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
as David Cameron, and that Labour had failed to shake off the myth | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
that Labour was responsible But parallel research was also | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
commissioned to inform the Beckett Report, | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
and despite being completed in July, The former Labour pollster | :07:08. | :07:09. | |
Deborah Mattinson carried out this research, and has spoken exclusively | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
to the Sunday Politics. We are saying the Conservatives | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
are the largest party. We all know what happened | :07:17. | :07:27. | |
on election night. Instead of a hung parliament, | :07:28. | :07:29. | |
David Cameron walked back into Downing Street | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
with a majority of 12. Labour got it wrong, as well, | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
suffering a net loss of 26 Friends, this is not the speech | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
I wanted to give today. Ed Miliband resigned | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
within hours, but it has taken eight and a half | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
months for the party to publish its own inquiry | :07:47. | :07:49. | |
into what went wrong. Margaret Beckett's report is called | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
Learning The Lessons From Defeat. It doesn't, says one pollster, | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
who has worked for several former I think it was a whitewash | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
and a massive missed opportunity. Just a few weeks after the election | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
defeat, Deborah Mattinson was commissioned | :08:07. | :08:09. | |
by the acting leader Harriet Harman to research | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
why Labour lost. She says the evidence was meant | :08:13. | :08:14. | |
to feed into the Beckett I did brief Margaret | :08:15. | :08:16. | |
Beckett so I was somewhat disappointed not to see some | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
of that reflected back. Yes, I think she picked up | :08:23. | :08:25. | |
on the economy but there was actually no analysis, | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
it is reduced effectively to one And there is a lot of quite | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
defensive stuff about the fact this does not necessarily | :08:32. | :08:41. | |
mean that anti-austerity is wrong. "Of course we had a great business | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
strategy, what a pity the voters "That was probably | :08:45. | :08:47. | |
the fault of the media". Quite apologetic, | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
lots of defensive stuff in there, but nothing that actually | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
really shone a light on what had Do you accept that when Labour | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
was last in power it No, I don't, and I know | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
you might not agree with that Margaret Beckett's report | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
acknowledges that Labour failed to shake what she | :09:08. | :09:15. | |
describes as the myth that the party caused | :09:16. | :09:17. | |
the financial crisis. But she concludes that Labour | :09:18. | :09:19. | |
was not seen as anti-aspiration Deborah Mattinson says that | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
for people in her focus groups Frankly, they did not trust Labour | :09:24. | :09:26. | |
to manage the economy effectively, they were very | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
concerned about that. In their minds, they | :09:32. | :09:34. | |
are seeing a conflation between the financial crisis, | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
which they do blame Labour for, rightly or wrongly, | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
and their sense that Labour would waste money, | :09:46. | :09:46. | |
their money, and run the economy Voters could not see | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
him as Prime Minister. But Margaret Beckett | :09:50. | :09:56. | |
concluded that Ed Miliband faced an exceptionally | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
vitriolic and personal attack People looked at Ed Miliband | :10:01. | :10:03. | |
and did not see him And if you look at every | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
election since the 70s, what we see, the party that has | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
the leader with the best ratings is the party that wins, | :10:14. | :10:16. | |
there is no exception to that. I get it, that people weren't | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
prejudiced against immigration, I get it and I understand | :10:21. | :10:23. | |
the need to change. The Beckett Report acknowledges that | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
Labour did not quite get it on issues like immigration | :10:30. | :10:32. | |
and benefits, and that the fear of the SNP propping up a minority | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
government scared off many voters. But Deborah Mattinson says Labour | :10:37. | :10:47. | |
was losing support in Scotland well before the independence referendum | :10:48. | :10:55. | |
and the surge in SNP support. Put simply, she said | :10:56. | :10:58. | |
voters did not feel that Labour was on their side, | :10:59. | :11:00. | |
and the party still does not I feel very concerned | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
that the lessons will be learned and I can't see how | :11:07. | :11:14. | |
they will be learned, because that was the vehicle, | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
that was the moment, and if this report does not address | :11:18. | :11:19. | |
those issues then I'm not No political party has a divine | :11:20. | :11:22. | |
right to exist and unless Labour really listens to those voters, | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
that it must persuade, it stands no chance | :11:28. | :11:29. | |
of winning the next election. And we've been joined by the former | :11:30. | :11:31. | |
Shadow Cabinet minister Michael Dugher - you might remember | :11:32. | :11:33. | |
he was sacked by Jeremy Corbyn Deborah Mattinson says the better | :11:34. | :11:41. | |
report is a whitewash, is she right? -- Beckett Report. That is a bit | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
harsh, does it have all the answers, though, of course not, and I think | :11:48. | :11:50. | |
Deborah Mattinson make some very fair observations in that piece, but | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
what Margaret concludes in her report, it is not a massive shock to | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
those of us that were knocking on doors last May and have thought long | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
and hard about it since, we were not trusted enough on the economy, and | :12:04. | :12:06. | |
that was the big issue, but also on immigration and welfare, we were | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
seen as out of touch, and also leadership being the most important | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
thing in any race. She makes those conclusions, in the report, and I | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
think the key thing now, is to listen to the issues that she | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
raises, but also listen to Debra and many others who have made a | :12:24. | :12:25. | |
contribution since the report came out. We have got to face up to the | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
difficult issues as to why we lost, if we are going to win again. Voters | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
found Ed Miliband the personification of the Labour brand, | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
that was the problem, well-meaning but ineffectual. I'm likely to | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
deliver -- and likely to deliver on promises. Did you detect that at the | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
time? I was very close to Ed Miliband and I gave him some advice, | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
some of which he took and some of which he didn't. I wanted him to be | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
a success, I saw him in private and you have strong he did beat, and | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
often he got very unfair coverage in the media and often he did not do | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
himself justice in his performances -- I saw him in private and how | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
strong he did beat. The real lesson here, for any lead at the Labour | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
Party can you have got to play to your strengths and you have got a | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
fundamentally address your perceived weaknesses. The private polling | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
showed the Tories were in the late, was that not a warning that things | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
were going wrong? -- in the lead. I'm not sure how much private | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
polling I was shown. You did not see this? The year before the election, | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
I was appointed Shadow Secretary of State for Transport, I was not so | :13:44. | :13:46. | |
much part of the central operations and I did not see private polling. | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
Many of us thought that we were getting difficult conversations on | :13:53. | :13:55. | |
the doorstep, but we were told consistently, including by the | :13:56. | :13:58. | |
pollsters, that we were neck and neck and there was a perception that | :13:59. | :14:01. | |
we were doing better in the marginals, as well. That turned out | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
to be catastrophically wrong, but one of the things that is not in | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
Margaret's report is about the organisational lessons, that does | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
speak, if you have a million conversations, what are you doing | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
with the data? I remember in the last two days of the campaign, I was | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
sent to Derbyshire, Amber Valley, and in Yorkshire, to Rothwell, but I | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
should have been sent to Morley to help Ed Balls, and Derby North to | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
help Chris Wood this. The campaign has got to base what they do on the | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
information, and in 2010 we took very hard decisions, six months away | :14:39. | :14:41. | |
from polling day, based on the information we had about prioritise | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
in resources, but are not sure that happens this time. -- I'm not sure. | :14:46. | :14:53. | |
Deborah Mattinson looks at the boundary changes before the next | :14:54. | :15:04. | |
election, and she thinks the Beckett Report made a failure to confront | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
why you lost enough. Her conclusion is this, Labour's future is in | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
profound jeopardy - is it? I think we have a massive challenge at the | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
next election. I don't think any political party has a right to be | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
successful in the future. I am an optimistic person. Labour, when we | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
have got our act together, when we have been in touch with the public | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
we have shown we can win. Is Labour's continued existence a | :15:37. | :15:44. | |
question mark? We have got to start getting in touch with the public. | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
One thing the report did slightly skirt around, the question over | :15:51. | :16:02. | |
politics as an identity. People like myself have been banging on about | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
this, not just in the weeks before the election but for months and | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
years before, and we need to face up to that. No political party has a | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
right to exist, but I think if Labour gets our act together, if we | :16:16. | :16:22. | |
stop picking fights with ourselves, if we face up to the difficult | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
issues in this report and elsewhere, we can be successful in the future. | :16:27. | :16:33. | |
In what ways, as things stand at the moment, what ways will Labour be | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
better, in better shape, under Jeremy Corbyn heading into the 2020 | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
election than it was in the 2015 election? What is one of the main | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
conclusions from the Beckett Report, it said we did make some gains, | :16:49. | :16:57. | |
1.5%, but we were stacking up area -- support in areas where we were | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
already strong. If they think you are out of touch on immigration and | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
welfare, you had better start talking about immigration and | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
welfare. Jeremy Corbyn seems to want almost no limit on immigration, it | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
is hard to detect if he would have any limits, and he is rather against | :17:18. | :17:25. | |
welfare reforms. I'm not sure that is an election winning strategy. On | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
immigration, I made this point to him, you have got to understand this | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
is the second biggest issue nationally, it is the biggest issue | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
in many constituencies including mine, and I said that many of the | :17:40. | :17:48. | |
answers are about stopping pressure on wages and conditions. There are | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
good centre-left solutions to these problems, about Europe dividing more | :17:53. | :17:59. | |
help for communities facing these changes. I made the point to him, on | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
welfare he is right to say we should be standing up to help the most | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
vulnerable, but in my experience you only get heard on those issues if | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
the public think you are for real in terms of wanting to be tough on | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
people who are frankly making decisions not to go into work so you | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
have got to get the balance right. Do you accept, given his huge | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
support among party members, that Jeremy Corbyn will lead you into the | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
next election? He faces a big test in May. We have seen the polls and | :18:34. | :18:40. | |
the ratings, any big test is a real election. He faces a big test | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
because he was clear that a left-wing agenda is the key to | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
transforming our fortunes in Scotland, I hope he's right. We need | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
to win in London but we have got to show we can make big gains in the | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
rest of London as well and we have got to hold onto power in Wales as | :18:57. | :19:03. | |
well. But even if he fails these tests, do you think there will be an | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
attempt to remove him? We have got to get behind Jeremy and he has got | :19:08. | :19:13. | |
to show us that he can deliver and turn things around. We need to get | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
behind him. People are very clear about what Jeremy stands for. He has | :19:19. | :19:29. | |
achieved remarkable cut throughs. Over the next few months we will see | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
more of that so he has got to be given a chance because he has a huge | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
mandate by the party members but he has got to show he can turn that | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
into real support from the public. That means also winning the support | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
of people who voted Conservative last time. It is not an easy | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
challenge, we are behind him in that but he has got to show he can learn | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
the lessons that Margaret Beckett has talked about and Debra and | :19:55. | :19:59. | |
others as well. We have got to stop it there, thank you. | :20:00. | :20:01. | |
The hole Labour is in is deepest in Scotland, where the once-mighty | :20:02. | :20:04. | |
party now holds just one Westminster seat. | :20:05. | :20:06. | |
If Jeremy Corbyn is to win the general election in 2020, | :20:07. | :20:08. | |
he needs to claw back support from the SNP, | :20:09. | :20:11. | |
and the first test of his appeal north of the border is coming up | :20:12. | :20:14. | |
fast in elections to the Scottish parliament in May. | :20:15. | :20:16. | |
Speaking to Andrew Marr this morning, the leader of the SNP took | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
aim at Mr Corbyn, criticising a plan he's floated | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
to keep Britain's Trident submarines minus their nuclear warheads. | :20:24. | :20:26. | |
I wonder what you made of Jeremy Corbyn's suggestion that | :20:27. | :20:29. | |
you could keep the Trident submarines, therefore keep the jobs | :20:30. | :20:31. | |
in Scotland, but not have nuclear missiles on them. | :20:32. | :20:34. | |
I think it was ridiculous and I think it's a sign of just how | :20:35. | :20:37. | |
tortured these debates are becoming within the Labour Party. | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
On Trident, I agree with Jeremy Corbyn. | :20:41. | :20:42. | |
I'm not in favour of the renewal of Trident, and we might have a vote | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
on that in the House of Commons sooner rather than later. | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
I think the real challenge for Jeremy Corbyn is, | :20:51. | :20:57. | |
can he get his party into the position he wants it to be | :20:58. | :21:00. | |
in so we can have any chance at all of stopping | :21:01. | :21:03. | |
For Labour to sit on the fence on this issue or have a free vote | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
on this issue will leave them without a shred of credibility. | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
And I've been joined now by the Shadow Scottish Secretary, | :21:12. | :21:14. | |
Let's pick up on the point from Nicola Sturgeon about Trident. In | :21:15. | :21:25. | |
Scotland the electoral choice on this is clear, if you are unilateral | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
disarmament, you vote SNP. You couldn't vote Labour on this issue | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
because people don't know what you stand for. The Labour Party has been | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
clear, a motion was passed almost unanimously to reject the renewal of | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
Trident on that policy basis. But it is not party policy. There is a | :21:47. | :21:53. | |
policy review happening at the moment so the Scottish Labour | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
Party's policy on this is clear. It is a Scottish election don't forget. | :21:58. | :22:05. | |
These Trident issues are diverting us away from big issues of policy in | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
terms of public services. The Deborah Mattinson research found | :22:11. | :22:18. | |
Scottish voters felt abandoned by the Labour Party. When did Labour | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
start taking Scottish voters for granted? It has been clear from a | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
number of reports that have been done that there has been a process | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
in the party where we have not devolved the party as much as | :22:32. | :22:38. | |
Scotland. The Scottish party, in 1999 it was a tremendous opportunity | :22:39. | :22:41. | |
for the Scottish Labour Party but I don't think we have caught up with | :22:42. | :22:55. | |
that. I think under Kesia's leadership she is refreshing that. | :22:56. | :23:06. | |
You face further electoral disasters in Holyrood in May. No one is under | :23:07. | :23:14. | |
any illusion this will be a difficult election, but what Kesia | :23:15. | :23:21. | |
is trying to do is get a positive policy platform together, reconnect | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
with Scottish people, respond to what Scottish people have been | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
saying on the doorsteps, and she's doing that on the basis of | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
responding to what the Scottish people want. That's what people want | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
to have. What the Shadow Cabinet was told by your own election director | :23:39. | :23:45. | |
is that he expects you to lose all of your constituency MSPs, just as | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
you lost all of your constituency MPs bar you last May. What can you | :23:50. | :23:56. | |
do to avoid that? The important thing is to go back to Kezia | :23:57. | :24:07. | |
Dugdale's policy. She wants to change the policies of the Scottish | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
Labour Party in order for us to have a policy platform that is incredibly | :24:13. | :24:19. | |
positive. What is the most distinctive Scottish policy | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
initiative since Jeremy Corbyn became leader? This isn't about | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
Jeremy Corbyn, it is about Kezia Dugdale. We have helped to buy | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
scheme for first time buyers, we want to build 60,000 affordable | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
homes, we want to put the 50p tax rate back in to close the | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
educational attainment gap, they are just a few of the policies she has | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
announced already. She is one of the few people in this election campaign | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
actually talking about the policy issues of Scotland. Nobody is | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
talking about these kinds of issues. Do you think that collection | :24:58. | :25:00. | |
policies you have outlined are enough to stave off a further | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
electoral humiliation? It is just the start of a policy platform she | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
will be announcing in the run-up to the elections. Help to buy is a Tory | :25:10. | :25:17. | |
policy. This is about resolving a housing crisis that has been created | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
by an SNP government. We are not holding them to account because | :25:22. | :25:29. | |
people are obsessing over things like polls. The transport system is | :25:30. | :25:34. | |
creaking at the seams. This has got to be dealt with and there is a real | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
opportunity to talk about the powers the Scottish Government currently | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
has and new powers. Let's talk about tomorrow's Scotland. How much would | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
a top rate 50p tax for Scotland raised? Up to 10 million, depending | :25:50. | :25:55. | |
where you would have any change but every single penny would go into | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
educational attainment. When the Conservatives cut the tax rate to | :26:00. | :26:07. | |
45p, the Treasury were projecting it would cost ?3 billion a year to | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
satisfy. That was for the whole of the UK, so 60-110,000,000 is a lot | :26:12. | :26:18. | |
of money we can use to cut the educational attainment gap. Why is | :26:19. | :26:27. | |
Jeremy Corbyn not cutting much ice north of the border? He has won a | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
significant mandate within the party, he needs to win that now | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
within the country but what we are concentrating on now is Kezia | :26:36. | :26:42. | |
Dugdale as a new leader. I am interesting that you stress all the | :26:43. | :26:50. | |
time Kezia Dugdale, is Jeremy Corbyn and asset or a liability in May? He | :26:51. | :26:59. | |
is an asset because she wants us to invest in public services, he wants | :27:00. | :27:02. | |
to use the powers in the Scottish bill to transform the Scottish | :27:03. | :27:08. | |
Parliament... So why are the polls, if you have got Kezia Dugdale and | :27:09. | :27:15. | |
Jeremy Corbyn doing all the right things, why are the polls so dire | :27:16. | :27:22. | |
for you in Scotland? We will fight for every single vote and seat, we | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
fight to win every election but whilst we are talking about polls | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
and not holding the Scottish Government to account for a dreadful | :27:31. | :27:33. | |
record in Government for eight years and not talking about positive | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
policies being put forward, we will not get any traction in the polls. | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
Let's get this campaign onto real issues that ordinary Scots want to | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
talk about on the doorsteps, which is about holding the Government to | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
account for a dreadful track record, and get some policies on there that | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
says to the people the Scottish Labour Party has changed and we can | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
talk about tomorrow's Scotland and how we can transform people's lives. | :28:02. | :28:03. | |
Thank you. The huge influx of migrants | :28:04. | :28:06. | |
into the EU from Syria and elsewhere is putting the future | :28:07. | :28:09. | |
of the EU in "grave danger", that was the stark warning | :28:10. | :28:11. | |
from the French Prime Minister Tomorrow, EU interior ministers | :28:12. | :28:13. | |
will discuss a possible two-year suspension of the Schengen system | :28:14. | :28:16. | |
of passport-free travel. It all comes as David Cameron seeks | :28:17. | :28:18. | |
to put the finishing touches to a new deal for the UK | :28:19. | :28:21. | |
inside the EU before But how is the migrant crisis | :28:22. | :28:24. | |
affecting his renegotiation? Since January 2015, nearly 1.1 | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
million migrants have arrived in Europe, the vast | :28:30. | :28:32. | |
majority coming by sea. The International Monetary Fund | :28:33. | :28:34. | |
estimates that nearly 4 million migrants will have reached | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
the EU by the end of 2017. Tomorrow, EU interior ministers | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
will discuss a possible suspension of the passport-free Schengen area | :28:45. | :28:47. | |
and the re-introduction of border The EU is also considering tearing | :28:48. | :28:49. | |
up the so-called Dublin Convention and introducing a new dispersal | :28:50. | :28:58. | |
scheme to distribute migrants more It's an extra headache | :28:59. | :29:00. | |
for David Cameron as he seeks to renegotiate the terms | :29:01. | :29:07. | |
of our membership of the EU. The Prime Minister's preferred | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
option is a four-year ban on new EU migrant workers claiming | :29:13. | :29:15. | |
in-work benefits. But that's unlikely to satisfy many | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
Conservative backbenchers. Former Cabinet minister Liam Fox, | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
who has already said he will campaign to leave the EU, | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
said yesterday that he "didn't expect a British prime minister | :29:28. | :29:29. | |
to have to take the political begging bowl around the capitals | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
of Europe just to change our own Over the next three weekends | :29:34. | :29:36. | |
we will be staging three debates Joining me now to discuss | :29:37. | :29:43. | |
immigration and the EU are the Ukip MEP Diane James, who's campaigning | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
for Britain to leave the EU, and the Conservative MP | :29:49. | :29:50. | |
Damian Green, who supports The French prime ministers as the | :29:51. | :30:07. | |
future the EU is in grave danger, so why would we want to stay in it? -- | :30:08. | :30:13. | |
Prime Minister says. It is useful to as, it makes us safer and more | :30:14. | :30:16. | |
secure and more prosperous and therefore it is worth saving, from | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
our perspective and to the other member countries. Why does it make | :30:21. | :30:26. | |
us more secure? The way that we cooperate with other European | :30:27. | :30:29. | |
countries, the European institutions, things like the | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
European arrest warrant, data share, these are very useful to our police | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
and security services. We share data with the United States, as well. But | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
not on the same automatic basis as we do with Europe. There is | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
automatic sharing of intelligence between Britain and the United | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
States. There is can we have a separate treaty with them, it is not | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
as automatic and quick. -- there is, we have a separate treaty. We can | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
change information within minutes with other European countries, and | :31:01. | :31:08. | |
it takes days and weeks with other countries, and that means in cases | :31:09. | :31:14. | |
of terrorism and sadly we live in a dangerous world, with global | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
terrorism, that kind of European cooperation is increasingly | :31:19. | :31:26. | |
important. Diane, we face a migration crisis, what is your | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
solution, to turn Britain into a fortress Britain? No, it isn't, but | :31:30. | :31:36. | |
it is to regain border control for the United Kingdom, and that is a | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
position endorsed by a number of countries, and number of member | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
states across the EU, you have five countries which every imposed border | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
controls to some extent. There is still free movement of people. | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
France said last week they will extend their border control, their | :31:54. | :31:56. | |
passport control as an emergency measure because of the terrorist | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
attacks in Paris. Border control is needed because under the current | :32:01. | :32:06. | |
system freedom of movement, people, services, transport, that also means | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
freedom of movement for terrorists and weapons, that come from the | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
Balkan states. We don't have border controls? Yes, but not sufficient, | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
if someone comes in from the Mediterranean states or from the | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
Balkan states, they have gained entry into the European member zone. | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
They can't then move around. If they get their passport, ultimately... | :32:29. | :32:36. | |
That can take ten years. It is five years in Germany, it can be granted | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
sooner if the Dublin agreement is changed and asylum seekers get a | :32:41. | :32:43. | |
faster processing, they can then come to the United Kingdom. It is | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
not five years in Germany, it is a comment if you have a criminal | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
record, you can't get one, and the things that Niger Farage was saying | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
about the scenes in Cologne, that was wrong. -- Nigel. The out | :32:58. | :33:04. | |
campaign is saying that border controls are what we need, strong | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
border controls, and pulling out of Europe would have the practical | :33:09. | :33:11. | |
effect, our border controls which act have a, thanks to the treaty | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
with the French government, they would certainly come back to Dover | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
-- our border controls which we have at Calais. Migrants would find it | :33:21. | :33:25. | |
much easier to get to this country and claim asylum here. But if they | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
couldn't get in, they did not qualify, we would have the power to | :33:31. | :33:36. | |
deport them? We were, after a legal process, but they would be stopped | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
not at Calais, it would be at Dover, when they are in Britain, and once | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
they are here they can claim asylum and because we have proper legal | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
processes it takes a lot of time and expense to deal with that. He has | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
all the accused me of getting my facts wrong, but he has got his | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
facts wrong. The agreement in terms of stationing our teams and our | :33:58. | :34:00. | |
support staff and control, in the French ports, that is a France UK | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
agreement, it has nothing to do with the European Union. If you are | :34:06. | :34:08. | |
suggesting that the agreement between France and the United | :34:09. | :34:15. | |
Kingdom gets torn up because we leave the EU, that is fanciful and | :34:16. | :34:17. | |
misleading and I don't agree with you. France signed the treatment | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
with us as a fellow member of the EU and the French interior minister has | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
said that they would look at the treaty, of course it would be at | :34:28. | :34:30. | |
risk, do you think the people of Calais want that camp on their | :34:31. | :34:36. | |
doorstep? Of course not. The French are doing us a favour. How would the | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
renegotiation by the Prime Minister help address any of this? The area | :34:42. | :34:47. | |
of renegotiation and this is about the extra pull factor that comes | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
from the perception that the British benefits system is easier to access | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
compared with other countries, and therefore there are people coming | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
here simply to make the benefits system and I think what many people | :35:02. | :35:04. | |
think about immigration, they are moral axed about people coming here | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
to work and pay taxes but they don't like people coming to use the | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
welfare system -- they are more relaxed. But it has been said this | :35:14. | :35:19. | |
will not have a big impact, you might marginalise one pull factor, | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
but with rises in the national minimum wage, you have increased the | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
pull factor on the other hand. It's a boiler fairness, that is what -- | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
that is a boiler fairness, that is what people want... It is unlikely | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
to have a big impact. This will have very little impact on the numbers. I | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
think people can make a distinction between those who are coming here to | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
work, who benefit our economy and benefit all of us. But we have | :35:50. | :35:55. | |
agreed it is unlikely, even if it is fair, it is unlikely to have any | :35:56. | :35:57. | |
impact on the numbers. We don't know. The OBR has had a good guess. | :35:58. | :36:05. | |
They are guessing, it is a guess. Nigel Farage said he would cut | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
immigration even if that meant lower economic growth, do you agree? There | :36:11. | :36:15. | |
are two parts to your question, George Osborne has predicated his | :36:16. | :36:22. | |
fiscal strategy on high numbers of immigration, but we have done this | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
on individuals who come here on a points system to deliver real value | :36:28. | :36:30. | |
to this country, who are not subsidised by the tax credit option | :36:31. | :36:36. | |
and who actually meet the needs that we have in the United Kingdom, and | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
currently, as we know, we want engineers and medics and nurses and | :36:41. | :36:45. | |
lawyers. Ukip strategy has never been to stop those individuals | :36:46. | :36:48. | |
coming, but what we are saying, the impact of low skilled immigration on | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
this country is negative. That is our position. Even if it meant slow | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
economic growth, you would still cut the numbers? It would not mean | :37:01. | :37:07. | |
slower economic growth. We have made our position very clear in terms of | :37:08. | :37:10. | |
the value of the money that we would not be paying in terms of membership | :37:11. | :37:17. | |
of the EU, coming back to the United Kingdom's economy, and balancing the | :37:18. | :37:20. | |
whole position, that would be a positive for us as a country. The | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
Prime Minister has refused to leave a group of 40 Eurosceptic | :37:26. | :37:30. | |
backbenchers in the Conservative Party, who want to asking to do much | :37:31. | :37:36. | |
more. Should he not make them? The Prime Minister meets backbenchers | :37:37. | :37:39. | |
all the time. He has not meant this group, they wrote to him in November | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
and he has not met them. -- he has not met this group. Anyone who would | :37:44. | :37:49. | |
like to meet the Prime Minister has ample opportunities to do so, I'm a | :37:50. | :37:52. | |
backbencher, I can speak to the Prime Minister, and all of these | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
points have been raised. It is possible that this story is slightly | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
overblown. Thank you very much. We will be coming back to these stories | :38:03. | :38:05. | |
in the weeks ahead. And next week we'll be debating | :38:06. | :38:07. | |
the economic effects of leaving It's just gone 11.35, | :38:08. | :38:10. | |
you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers | :38:11. | :38:13. | |
in Scotland who leave us now Hello and welcome to | :38:14. | :38:16. | |
the Sunday Politics Wales. The Welsh and UK governments | :38:17. | :38:27. | |
are on another collision course. This time it's over | :38:28. | :38:34. | |
new trade union laws. We have the first interview | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
with the Education Minister since he announced his intention | :38:39. | :38:41. | |
to stands down as an AM And it's 35 years since | :38:42. | :38:44. | |
the SDP was formed. We talk with one man | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
who was at the centre. There's another fight on the way | :38:50. | :38:52. | |
between Wales and Westminster, The UK Government wants to tighten | :38:53. | :38:55. | |
the ability of unions to call Ministers in Cardiff Bay oppose | :38:56. | :39:01. | |
the move and say that power Bethan Lewis now on what's likely | :39:02. | :39:07. | |
to be a messy scrap. It wouldn't be the first time that | :39:08. | :39:16. | |
a dispute about who is in charge of what has ended up | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
in a legal fight. The UK and Welsh Government went | :39:21. | :39:23. | |
head to head in the Supreme Court. Last week, First | :39:24. | :39:34. | |
Minister Carwyn Jones raised the possibility | :39:35. | :39:36. | |
it could happen again. If it comes to the point where that | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
bill is passed and its provisions are applied to devolved public | :39:41. | :39:43. | |
services, then we will seek to introduce a bill in this chamber | :39:44. | :39:46. | |
to overturn sections of the bill It's a matter for the UK Government | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
as to whether they then wish to go to the Supreme Court | :39:51. | :39:57. | |
in order to frustrate the will of this democratically | :39:58. | :39:59. | |
elected Assembly. And this Trade Union Bill provokes | :40:00. | :40:02. | |
strong passions on both sides. The Conservatives | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
feel there should be tighter rules on unions' | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
power to call strikes. The unions and Labour see it | :40:11. | :40:12. | |
as an ideologically driven When it comes to strikes, | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
the law, if it is passed, would allow employers to use agency | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
workers to replace striking staff. 50% of a union's members would have | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
to vote in a ballot calling 40% of those eligible | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
to vote would have to support a strike to make it | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
legal in key areas such The Welsh Government argues | :40:36. | :40:38. | |
this would affect public sector employees in devolved areas | :40:39. | :40:43. | |
and they say they will fight to overturn the measures | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
if they are introduced. It's very clear that we have very | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
strong relationships with trade unions in our public | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
services in Wales. It is very clear to us that | :40:57. | :40:59. | |
responsibility for the public services lies with the Welsh | :41:00. | :41:01. | |
Government under the This is an intrusion | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
into the devolution settlement I think they should now agree | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
with us on the amendments we want to see to exclude Wales | :41:11. | :41:17. | |
from the Trade Union Bill. I think that is a spurious argument | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
because everybody knows that employment legislation is not | :41:22. | :41:24. | |
devolved, end of story. I think we have to | :41:25. | :41:28. | |
look at trade unions legislation across the world | :41:29. | :41:34. | |
in that we have modernised ours and this is part of that | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
modernisation to get the recognition to the individual | :41:38. | :41:39. | |
member that their vote counts This week, the Assembly's | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
likely to vote against giving the UK Parliament permission | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
to pass the new law If, as expected, it's | :41:49. | :41:51. | |
still brought the stage will be The Welsh Government | :41:52. | :41:57. | |
will vote against granting consent to the UK | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
Government and I know other parties I'm confident the Assembly will not | :42:03. | :42:05. | |
give authority for the UK Government The UK Government may take the view | :42:06. | :42:11. | |
that they are able to do so in which case, we will seek | :42:12. | :42:18. | |
to reverse the effects of the bill in the next Assembly | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
as the First Minister has said. If it is defeated in the Assembly | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
all it is giving is the views of the National Assembly by | :42:27. | :42:32. | |
majority, but as it is on a matter which the United Kingdom Government | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
still believe we have any particular Do you think you'll be right | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
to ignore the Assembly's Go back to the original | :42:42. | :42:50. | |
position, employment legislation is not devolved | :42:51. | :42:53. | |
to the National Assembly. Therefore, issuing | :42:54. | :42:56. | |
an opinion on it As well as the constitutional | :42:57. | :42:59. | |
clash, the Welsh Government and the wider Labour Party | :43:00. | :43:05. | |
are fundamentally opposed to another At the moment union | :43:06. | :43:08. | |
members opt out rather The government would reverse | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
thatbut putting a huge debt in the Labour Party's | :43:14. | :43:19. | |
offers as the party gets a substantial | :43:20. | :43:22. | |
amounts from the unions. The House of Lords has raised | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
concerns about that. In the meantime, the | :43:27. | :43:29. | |
Welsh Government says a legal fight can be avoided | :43:30. | :43:31. | |
if the UK Government listens. But at the moment it looks like both | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
sides are standing firm. It's been just over a week | :43:36. | :43:41. | |
since the surprising news that Huw Lewis, the Education Minister, | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
would be stepping down as an AM It's a brief which will, | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
no doubt, be central during the election | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
campaign and afterwards. Well, in his first interview | :43:56. | :43:57. | |
since his announcement I visited Huw Lewis in his | :43:58. | :44:00. | |
Merthyr constituency. I asked him about standards in Welsh | :44:01. | :44:03. | |
schools and underfunding The spend per pupil in Wales has | :44:04. | :44:05. | |
been rising year on year. For the last year or so, | :44:06. | :44:12. | |
it's been impossible to figure out actually | :44:13. | :44:15. | |
what the spend is England. They have stopped collecting | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
the statistics in the plain straightforward way | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
we do here in Wales. The academy and free school system | :44:24. | :44:25. | |
in England means there are wild variations in terms of spend | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
between one school and another. With some schools | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
being favoured simply because they fit with the | :44:35. | :44:37. | |
government's political programme. Free schools, for instance, | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
having money lavished upon them in areas where there is actually | :44:42. | :44:44. | |
a surplus of school places. It is no way to run a system | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
really if you are looking And yet they are still ahead | :44:49. | :44:51. | |
when we look at the GCSE results. That was something this | :44:52. | :44:57. | |
time last year you were suggesting maybe Wales | :44:58. | :45:00. | |
would overtake England on some We very nearly did | :45:01. | :45:03. | |
it by the way, we're talking about fractions now | :45:04. | :45:14. | |
of percentage points when it comes What is very, very | :45:15. | :45:17. | |
interesting about the last couple of years in GCSE results | :45:18. | :45:20. | |
is, Wales's results just They are pretty much | :45:21. | :45:23. | |
stagnant at the moment. It'll be very interesting | :45:24. | :45:31. | |
to see how that plays out. So this year, do you want | :45:32. | :45:34. | |
to make another forecast? Will it happen this | :45:35. | :45:36. | |
year do you think? No, I think my successor | :45:37. | :45:38. | |
will make that prediction. I'm confident, actually, | :45:39. | :45:41. | |
we will see a further uplift. One thing that has | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
been a major part of the policy side of education | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
in Wales over the last few years has been the tuition fee | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
grant where pupils and students in Wales only | :45:54. | :45:55. | |
pay the first ?3500, Is it something you would | :45:56. | :45:59. | |
like to see continue during the lifetime | :46:00. | :46:08. | |
of the next Assembly? The central principle | :46:09. | :46:11. | |
of it is something indispensable Essentially, what we have done | :46:12. | :46:13. | |
in Wales is to continue to invest in the prospects of young | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
people by supporting them through university, which I think | :46:20. | :46:22. | |
should be the central principle that any reasonable | :46:23. | :46:27. | |
government should stick to. It has meant that our young people | :46:28. | :46:30. | |
now have ?22,000 less debt on average when they come through | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
the end of their graduation year. It's being reviewed at the moment, | :46:36. | :46:38. | |
we won't know until after the Assembly elections what that | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
review will recommend. But do you think that | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
principle of a student from Wales should be able to go | :46:46. | :46:48. | |
anywhere in the UK and not have to worry about those | :46:49. | :46:51. | |
additional fees, the ?5,500 you currently spent, | :46:52. | :46:53. | |
should that remain? Yes, is very simple | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
and definite answer to that. Again it comes down to the central | :46:58. | :47:00. | |
principle, what are you primarily My argument would be, | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
it is the life chances That takes primacy, even over | :47:05. | :47:09. | |
the very real priorities that you need to address | :47:10. | :47:17. | |
around institutions, The person comes first, | :47:18. | :47:19. | |
the individual comes first and then, of course, | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
we do reasonable and common sensical things to make sure | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
we have a sustainable system. I'll have one last pop | :47:29. | :47:31. | |
at this, for the manifesto, it will remain as it is, | :47:32. | :47:34. | |
not as a universal element rather than something which | :47:35. | :47:39. | |
will be means tested? Well, we will have to see | :47:40. | :47:42. | |
what the manifesto will I think the central principle, | :47:43. | :47:44. | |
as I say, needs to be, we will invest in your | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
ambition as a young person. We will not curtail your ambition | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
particularly when it If you really think you're | :47:53. | :47:56. | |
best served across the border or in Scotland or Northern Ireland, | :47:57. | :48:01. | |
that is OK. You talk about belt tightening | :48:02. | :48:03. | |
in public services, something we have heard God | :48:04. | :48:09. | |
knows how many times. As Education Minister, | :48:10. | :48:12. | |
do you ever think, here we are once again in this year's budget, | :48:13. | :48:17. | |
the health service getting Perhaps too much money goes | :48:18. | :48:19. | |
into the health service when actually here you are trying | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
to drive up standards for schools, trying to give us world | :48:25. | :48:27. | |
leading higher education statements and having to take money out | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
of your budget to put I think everybody, the settled | :48:32. | :48:33. | |
will of the Welsh people would always be that the NHS | :48:34. | :48:39. | |
is a top priority and needs to be So we have to meet the needs | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
of the health service. But I am proud that we have seen | :48:44. | :48:50. | |
an upward investment also in education, particularly | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
in our schools despite the very difficult times we have | :48:55. | :48:59. | |
been since 2008. How hard do you have | :49:00. | :49:04. | |
to fight for the budget? Gives an insight into Cabinet now | :49:05. | :49:07. | |
when different ministers are saying, I need this, | :49:08. | :49:10. | |
that and the other. As Education Minister, | :49:11. | :49:13. | |
how hard do you have to fight? We all make our | :49:14. | :49:15. | |
argument and I try to put mine as best I can and fight | :49:16. | :49:17. | |
forcefully for our priorities. You have to remember | :49:18. | :49:20. | |
that you were talking about a Welsh Labour | :49:21. | :49:23. | |
Cabinet with people And although there can | :49:24. | :49:26. | |
be can be discussion, for sure, in the end everyone around | :49:27. | :49:35. | |
that table wants to see good A decent standard of service | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
delivery right across our communities and we are | :49:40. | :49:45. | |
all as one on that. You are standing down | :49:46. | :49:48. | |
in May at the elections, It's been a tremendous honour | :49:49. | :49:51. | |
to represent the community To have served as Education | :49:52. | :50:00. | |
Minister which in many I will always walk out | :50:01. | :50:06. | |
a little taller, I suppose, But it is time for fresh | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
horizons I think. Huw Lewis there starting a series | :50:11. | :50:17. | |
of programmes here on BBC Wales on How Wales Works, | :50:18. | :50:24. | |
starting with education. Tomorrow night, Lucy Owen looks | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
into whether she should send her son to a Welsh or English-medium | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
secondary school? Now, it was the party that was meant | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
to break the mould of British 35 years ago tomorrow, | :50:37. | :50:43. | |
the gang or four walked out of David Owen's house to say they'd | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
walked out of the Labour Party. It had a phenomenal start | :50:49. | :50:53. | |
but within a few years But what parallels, if any, | :50:54. | :50:55. | |
are there with the arguments Will there be a new SDP anytime | :50:56. | :50:58. | |
soon? In a moment, I'll be speaking | :50:59. | :51:04. | |
to former Labour MP turned SDP now But first, Rhodri Lewis, | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
a mere schoolboy at the time, May 1979, and it is all | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
change in Downing Street. Cardiff's Sunny Jim Callaghan | :51:15. | :51:26. | |
was out and the grocer's girl Where there is despair, | :51:27. | :51:29. | |
may we bring hope. Meanwhile, the Labour | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
Party was coming apart. Its conferences more about pantomime | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
and punch-ups than policy. At Labour's special conference | :51:38. | :51:39. | |
in Wembley today historic decisions The meeting in November | :51:40. | :51:45. | |
1980 saw Michael Foot This was the final straw for many | :51:46. | :51:50. | |
on the Labour right. Agonising, it was like divorcing | :51:51. | :51:55. | |
once beloved husband. There was a lot of emotional | :51:56. | :51:58. | |
pull in the whole thing. But once you've made your mind up it | :51:59. | :52:04. | |
becomes different and becomes challenging, exciting, | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
a test of your strength and a test # There comes a time | :52:09. | :52:12. | |
for making your mind up. # And the Gang of Four did | :52:13. | :52:20. | |
make their minds up. They decided to walk | :52:21. | :52:23. | |
out of the Labour Party At the centre of it | :52:24. | :52:25. | |
all, the former MP for Labour to begin with, | :52:26. | :52:30. | |
he joined the fledgling The SDP scored a string | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
of by-election successes in the days when canvassing through a car | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
roof was still allowed. But the boy from Pontypool | :52:40. | :52:43. | |
always had time Your life would be a living | :52:44. | :52:46. | |
hypocrisy, and that's what's wring with Mr Healey and Mr Hattersley, | :52:47. | :52:53. | |
when you advocate policies, major policies | :52:54. | :52:56. | |
you don't believe in. Just a year after its launch | :52:57. | :52:58. | |
the Falklands War happened and attention shifted | :52:59. | :53:02. | |
to the south Atlantic. The result, the Tories got back | :53:03. | :53:04. | |
in in 1983 with a huge majority and the SDP, well it got 25% | :53:05. | :53:09. | |
of the vote but only a miserable Another of the Gang of Four | :53:10. | :53:14. | |
with strong Welsh connection says the party failed because it | :53:15. | :53:19. | |
needed time to develop. When you look at the electoral | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
system, first past the post makes it very, very difficult | :53:24. | :53:28. | |
for a party to create, start and in one fell | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
swoop become government. That was, in my view, | :53:33. | :53:35. | |
never possible. We had to build it up and we had | :53:36. | :53:38. | |
to build it up by taking Labour votes, and we had to smash | :53:39. | :53:42. | |
into labour in the '83 election because they deserved | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
to be smashed into. The failure to do that | :53:47. | :53:48. | |
was namby-pambyism. As Labour move to the right, | :53:49. | :53:56. | |
the SDP saw its hour had passed and the party merged | :53:57. | :54:00. | |
with the Liberals. Gwynoro still kept the flame burning | :54:01. | :54:02. | |
back in Carmarthen under a new banner, happy to field | :54:03. | :54:05. | |
questions about his change of party. One or two people have drawn | :54:06. | :54:11. | |
attention to it but it hasn't been The reality is, | :54:12. | :54:14. | |
Carmarthen has been well acquainted with that | :54:15. | :54:17. | |
kind of politics before. Lady Megan Lloyd George switched | :54:18. | :54:19. | |
from Liberal to Labour and that has always been my answer to some | :54:20. | :54:23. | |
of the Labour people that we accepted someone | :54:24. | :54:25. | |
from another party who served Quite frankly it's a nonissue | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
because the broad mass of even Labour supporters well | :54:30. | :54:32. | |
understand there is something fundamentally at fault | :54:33. | :54:37. | |
with the Labour Party of today compared to the Labour Party | :54:38. | :54:40. | |
of when I was last 35 years on, the parallels | :54:41. | :54:42. | |
with the situation in today's Does the example of the SDP offer | :54:43. | :54:53. | |
Labour way forward or is it a warning from history that voters | :54:54. | :55:00. | |
don't like parties who can't even There we are, a trip down memory | :55:01. | :55:24. | |
lane there. Gwynoro Jones, we heard Shirley Williams in that piece | :55:25. | :55:27. | |
saying that walking out of the Labour Party was like leaving your | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
family. How difficult was it for you? | :55:32. | :55:34. | |
It wasn't easy. If you had it in a party for 20 years, even I was as a | :55:35. | :55:42. | |
young man, to leave you thought often about it. It is easier for me | :55:43. | :55:47. | |
because I lost that election. But I can imagine for them, the second | :55:48. | :55:53. | |
half of the 1970s in Shadow Cabinet positions, indeed in government some | :55:54. | :55:59. | |
of them, it was not easy at all. It is like leaving a family. You regard | :56:00. | :56:05. | |
-- you are regarded as a traitor. The times I was called in the 1980s | :56:06. | :56:10. | |
as a traitor. Similar Labour Party would think it was a treaty even | :56:11. | :56:17. | |
today. We took a lot of time. Jenkins had gone to Brussels. He was | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
ready to make the move. Shirley and David waited until the last moments | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
because they were hoping the Labour Party would change in Europe, change | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
on first past the post, change or nuclear weapons and they didn't. | :56:31. | :56:37. | |
Then they went out. Roy Hattersley says in the film last week, what you | :56:38. | :56:43. | |
should have done, the people who left, was stay within the party and | :56:44. | :56:46. | |
tried to change things from within. Should you do that? Roy did that. | :56:47. | :56:55. | |
Roy was one of Jenkins's people. Billy Sealey was the social | :56:56. | :56:57. | |
Democrats commit he didn't come over. Cledwyn Hughes was a Democrat | :56:58. | :57:04. | |
but he didn't come over. They were offended people who were a social | :57:05. | :57:07. | |
democrat in the Labour Party. Only 35 made the jump. Why? Because of | :57:08. | :57:13. | |
the previous question. It wasn't an easy thing to do for. They have been | :57:14. | :57:22. | |
struggling for 20 years and enough was enough by 1980. One of the | :57:23. | :57:29. | |
points that labelling of a treaty would be there was a belief in the | :57:30. | :57:32. | |
Labour Party they lost the 90 23 election so money mentally because | :57:33. | :57:37. | |
the SDP split the Labour vote. Is that a fair characterisation? That | :57:38. | :57:46. | |
is true. The Alliance, the SDP Liberal Alliance had 25% of the | :57:47. | :57:51. | |
vote. We almost came second within 1%. I maintain to this day if it | :57:52. | :57:56. | |
hadn't been for the Falklands War the history of British politics in | :57:57. | :57:59. | |
the 80s would have been completely different. Had it not been for the | :58:00. | :58:05. | |
SDP, maybe Labour would have won in 1983 the stop possibly. We didn't | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
help their cause. The question somebody had raised that we had | :58:11. | :58:17. | |
failed, we didn't fail. Labour had to change. Neil Kinnock changes. | :58:18. | :58:23. | |
Tony Blair, SDP Mark two. The SDP did not fail. When they are looking | :58:24. | :58:29. | |
at 35 years tomorrow since the SDP was formed, are the parallels | :58:30. | :58:36. | |
between the Labour Party at the end of the 70s and the Labour Party now, | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
just to irresistible to ignore, do you think is Mac there are some | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
parallels but they are different this user stop back then, it is the | :58:46. | :58:52. | |
power of the trade unions, it is anti-Europe and a number of other | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
things. The Labour Party isn't anti-Europe now, the power of the | :58:57. | :59:00. | |
unions has gone because it is one member, one vote. It is about social | :59:01. | :59:04. | |
policies, economic policies and that is one link, defence, Trident. It | :59:05. | :59:10. | |
was there in the 1970s and 1980s and it is there now. But a social | :59:11. | :59:15. | |
Democrats within the Labour Party will without question. The problem | :59:16. | :59:19. | |
for them is they are not as well-known as Jenkins and a and | :59:20. | :59:24. | |
Shirley Williams. They can't attract attention. There is those problems. | :59:25. | :59:31. | |
-- David Owen. There is a rift within the left and right of the | :59:32. | :59:35. | |
Labour Party and quite a lot of issues. It is coming to the service | :59:36. | :59:39. | |
time and time again. Do you think that could lead to a similar | :59:40. | :59:46. | |
breakaway group? Eventually, yes. Jeremy Corbyn and his people are in | :59:47. | :59:52. | |
control and you can't deny that. He has got 60, 70% of the vote and he's | :59:53. | :59:56. | |
entitled to be the leader. It is up to the others how they will cope | :59:57. | :00:00. | |
with it, how they will live within that system. Are they going to be | :00:01. | :00:04. | |
quiet? Are they going to say like the SDP did, we can cope with this. | :00:05. | :00:14. | |
You see yourself as an outsider with the Labour Party, what would be your | :00:15. | :00:20. | |
advice for anybody within Labour thinking, they are not happy with | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
the direction of the party. I can't give them advice about what they | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
should do. But I'll tell you one thing if we're talking about | :00:31. | :00:33. | |
realignments, it's got to be about is used they would agree with the | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
Liberal Democrats. Constitutional reform, Europe, the environment, a | :00:38. | :00:45. | |
lot of this use. Not too interested in social Democrats on the right of | :00:46. | :00:47. | |
the Labour Party who disagree with Jeremy Corbyn because he is an out | :00:48. | :00:53. | |
and out left. They've got our principles they believe in. What do | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
they believe in? The gang of four had clear principles. They had clear | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
principles on Europe, the one member one vote, there were many clear | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
things. The social Democrats and the Labour Party need to have that. | :01:09. | :01:09. | |
Don't forget you follow all the latest on Twitter, | :01:10. | :01:11. | |
But for now that's all from me, diolch am wylio, | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
we will have Sadiq Khan, Labour's candidate in the hot seat, until | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
then, back to you, Andrew. Can David Cameron keep his party | :01:21. | :01:27. | |
together in the run-up Will the SNP stymie the PM's | :01:28. | :01:30. | |
plans for a summer vote? And who will go along to | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
John McDonnell's economics roadshow? Nick, Damian Green downplayed the 40 | :01:37. | :01:53. | |
Eurosceptics who have written to the Prime Minister, asking for a | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
meeting. Is he right? Is there a serious division for the Tories? It | :02:00. | :02:03. | |
was a very diplomatic response from Damian Green, but what Downing | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
Street would say about the letter from John Barron, what is the point | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
of meeting him and his 40 merry friends, because I want to get | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
Britain out and they have always wanted to do so and the demands they | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
are tabling in that letter, to have primacy of the UK Parliament over EU | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
law is not in the negotiation and is not going to happen, but there is a | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
port in point. David Cameron was dismissive of John Barron in the | :02:28. | :02:30. | |
House of Commons and he needs to maybe occasionally show a bit more | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
charm and listening to those kind of people. -- important point. They are | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
on the other side of the prime Minster, but he has got to manage | :02:40. | :02:42. | |
the process carefully and he needs to avoid a civil war, and he can | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
avoid that if all sides are respected in this debate. Presumably | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
the 40 that signed our hard-core Eurosceptic but there are more | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
Eurosceptics. Even if David Cameron gets all of what he is asking for, | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
how many Conservative MPs will still want to come out? Going back to the | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
John Barenboim, the 40 that have signed that letter, Downing Street | :03:09. | :03:15. | |
have put them to one side -- John Barron point. The battle for the | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
party, what do you do with those, maybe a third of the party, that | :03:20. | :03:29. | |
would be minded to leave, maybe 100-100 and 50 MPs, George Osborne | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
was talking about emergency brakes on legislation, if things are coming | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
through from Brussels which the British don't want. They still think | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
that the negotiation really is in play and what we have to do is try | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
and pick off moderate Eurosceptics and give them a package which they | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
can get behind and then we need to accept that there will be 40 | :03:52. | :03:54. | |
hard-core people that we could never placate. In the David Cameron | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
nightmare, that is the potential backdrop to the referendum, the | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
French Prime Minister has said Europe is in grave danger and we | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
have had President task of the council say that we have only got a | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
couple of months to sort out the immigration issue -- Donald Tusk. | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
The Dutch Prime Minister has given warnings, as well. If there's a | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
sense that Europe is falling especially regarding migration, | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
Schengen is swept away, as it might be tomorrow, that is not a way to | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
win a referendum. It is a huge advantage for the Brexit campaign | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
and it distinguishes them from their predecessors of 20 years ago, | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
leaving the EU back then was seen as a pessimistic thing to do, but now | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
you can almost support Brexit because you think, why chain | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
yourself to a continent which is losing, when there's so much | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
dynamism in the world elsewhere? The characteristic of the Brexit | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
campaign is the challenge David Cameron has got to summer, it cannot | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
say they are entirely insular any more. -- has got to surmount. I | :04:59. | :05:05. | |
thought the internal Tory problem with the explosive, if not a big | :05:06. | :05:12. | |
split, but like a rolling crisis from the 1990s, but I no longer | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
think that is true, the fact they know they can expect to be in | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
government until at least 2025, they can maintain basic adhesion because | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
of the weakness of the Labour Party and that is a contrast with the 90s | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
-- basic cohesion. Cameron will look like he is losing control, but there | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
will not be anything existential going on for the party. We believe | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
the government is anxious to get it out of the way by the end of June, | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
may be the first week of July. Nicola Sturgeon said some | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
interesting things on the Andrew Marr show, about the timetable for | :05:49. | :05:56. | |
the referendum. We had a negative feeling campaign from the no | :05:57. | :05:59. | |
campaign and they almost lost, in the referendum for Europe, the | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
campaigns are much closer to start with, and if the in campaign falls | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
into the trap of the no campaign I fear it will lose. Nicola Sturgeon | :06:09. | :06:15. | |
has said that she does not want a June referendum and she feels that | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
is too soon. You can say, that is the view of the First Minister, she | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
doesn't have a vote in parliament, but it have more significance. I was | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
briefed last week by senior Scottish Nationalist who said this, "Many | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
conservatives will not want a June referendum and the risk epics want | :06:37. | :06:43. | |
more time to layout their case -- Eurosceptics want more time to | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
layout their case". The Scottish Nationalists will not help to vote | :06:50. | :06:57. | |
by voting for a June referendum. The SNP could try and turn this into a | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
vote in the house and then it depends on what Labour do, do they | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
want to have it in June or later? I think the Eurosceptics are so | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
focused on trying to get this referendum through, I don't think | :07:10. | :07:16. | |
them as long as they feel they have the campaign in time that they want, | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
the four-month period, I think they will go for it. I'm not sure that is | :07:21. | :07:27. | |
true. Given the divisions in the Eurosceptics side at the moment, and | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
the out campaign, I think they need longer to get there ducks in a row | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
and they feel the best time for them to fight is after there has been | :07:38. | :07:44. | |
another major migration crisis in the summer, people will not on their | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
side of the ardent when that happens. That might be true. -- of | :07:48. | :07:56. | |
the argument. But they cannot argue for a delay in some ways, but I do | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
feel that Nicola Sturgeon's intervention is significant and the | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
pressure on the Prime Minister to listen to what she is saying, will | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
not so much come in parliament, it could come from the electoral | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
commission, which has already said they cannot have the referendum in | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
May as the same time as the devolved elections, and if you have Nicola | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
Sturgeon, Arlene Foster, the First Minister of Northern Ireland, and | :08:21. | :08:23. | |
Karen Jones can be First Minister of Wales Coulibaly said they think this | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
is over complicating -- First Minister of Wales, if they all said | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
they think this is over, catering, because it would happen at the same | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
time as the devolved elections -- if they all said this is | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
overcompensated. That would be significant, we could be bouncing | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
into September. They have said they do not want the overlap, there | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
should be a clear gap between the referendum campaign and the local | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
elections, the assembly come and the Parliamentary elections in Scotland. | :08:55. | :09:01. | |
They have a low view of the ability of the electorate to distinguish | :09:02. | :09:03. | |
between elections, I do think Nicolas -- Nicola Sturgeon is an | :09:04. | :09:12. | |
obstacle, but the biggest obstacle will be David Cameron and what he | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
can get from the EU. You don't think it will be a done deal pretty much | :09:18. | :09:24. | |
they are putting a lot of weight white -- you don't think it will be | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
a done deal? They are putting a lot of weight on one summit, but the | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
next summit that matters, it only takes one delay for us to move | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
beyond June and then into September. I thought 2017 would be more likely, | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
I have slightly revised that view, but I don't think June is possible. | :09:42. | :09:53. | |
We have leave, and several out campaigns, and we have got one which | :09:54. | :10:01. | |
is called grassroots out. Liam Fox, Conservative, Nigel Farage, Kate | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
Hoey from Labour was there, it was launched yesterday. At some stage | :10:07. | :10:13. | |
they have got to consult them if they want to be serious and marshal | :10:14. | :10:16. | |
their resources, they have got to have a single campaign? And by law | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
they have got through, the electoral commission is going to have two | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
designate a campaign on either side. It is pretty clear that the inside | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
are coalescing around the Britain stronger in Europe group, but on the | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
outside there is not that agreement and there is feuding between these | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
groups and they're going to have to reach agreement. The problem they | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
have, who is going to lead them? Nigel Lawson is a key figure and he | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
says they will get a senior Cabinet minister, but I said the most senior | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
Cabinet minister who will go for Brexit, in Duncan Smith, do his own | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
thing, which leaves you with Chris Grayling -- Iain Duncan Smith. And | :10:54. | :11:00. | |
also Theresa Villiers. They will go up against the leader of the in | :11:01. | :11:07. | |
campaign who is someone called David Cameron, and so they really do need | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
to get unity. Vote Labour say they are more grown-up, -- vote leave say | :11:12. | :11:20. | |
they are more grown-up, for example. Some are said to me the other day | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
that Chris Grayling's view is that many senior figures in the party | :11:25. | :11:30. | |
should be voices. In other words he was suggesting he did not want to | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
leave and they would not be one senior Cabinet minister that was | :11:34. | :11:36. | |
going to champion it which gives them another problem. The | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
organisational, factional differences make much less | :11:40. | :11:47. | |
difference in who you have as your voice, it could be a very prominent | :11:48. | :11:50. | |
businessperson, for example, the head of a major company. Who knows | :11:51. | :11:59. | |
how to bend opinion. That is not true of many business people. They | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
could talk about the economic risk. The state in campaign was launched | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
by Stuart Rose. And it was a disaster. It was a disastrous launch | :12:09. | :12:18. | |
will stop you going to John McDonnell's economic seminar? I'm | :12:19. | :12:25. | |
washing my hair. He was to get out of the -- he says he would like to | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
get out of the Westminster bubble, he has only got to the West End, but | :12:30. | :12:36. | |
he has got out there. You don't want to come? There are many people | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
worried about Jeremy Corbyn's leadership in the Labour Party, but | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
they are encouraged about the seminars, the economics panel, he | :12:46. | :12:48. | |
has got an incredibly serious group of people, is opening up these | :12:49. | :12:55. | |
seminars and they are encouraged. There was a good piece in the Sunday | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
Times about whether there is a good deal with Google and whether this is | :13:00. | :13:02. | |
such a good deal for the British taxpayer. I can feel I'm going to be | :13:03. | :13:09. | |
on my own. Anyway, it has sold out, there is no room for you. | :13:10. | :13:12. | |
Jo Coburn will be back with the Daily Politics | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
And I'll be back here on BBC One next Sunday | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:22. | :13:32. |