28/02/2016 Sunday Politics Wales


28/02/2016

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The Prime Minister rams home his claim that leaving

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the European Union puts jobs, security, even the world

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Many Tories don't like his arguments.

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David Cameron's mentor and former Tory leader Michael Howard will be

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here to tell us why he thinks it's safe for Britain to leave -

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and Labour big beast Alan Johnson will make the case for staying in.

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Labour's not exactly united when it comes to renewing Trident -

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that didn't stop Jeremy Corbyn telling protestors yesterday

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that he believes in a nuclear-free Britain.

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Following the death of young Conservative activist

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Elliott Johnson amid allegations of bullying within the party,

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we've spoken to one of those close to the centre of the story

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It was hailed as the way forward for devolution, but what now

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for the Wales Bill as MPs say it should be paused?

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for the Wales Bill as MPs say it over Europe at the front runners

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take sides on the referendum. We assessed the impact on the male

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race. -- may roll race. All that to come -

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and with me for the duration, three journalists who show as much

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consensus on the big political For balance I should say they fall

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out as often as Jeremy Corbyn's It's Nick Watt, Isabel Oakshott

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and Janan Ganesh. And speaking of cabinet unity,

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there's a distinct lack of it

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in this morning's papers of campaigning since David Cameron

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announced that a referendum on Britain's EU membership will take

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place on the 23rd of June. The Fleet Street hounds have caught

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the scent of a good old-fashioned Conservative feud over Europe,

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and with the party and the cabinet divided over whether Britain should

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stay or go, they're not The Sunday Times says

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David Cameron has been warned that he'll face a leadership

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challenge if he doesn't call a halt to so-called 'blue on blue' attacks

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on fellow Conservatives. The Sunday Telegraph reports

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on the 'battle of wills' between the two sides

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with pieces by David Cameron and Iain Duncan Smith,

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who says 'they can sack me The Observer leads with

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Number 10's main message, which is to say that a British

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exit would spark decades And the Mail on Sunday says

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the Tory feud turned really nasty after Foreign Secretary Philip

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Hammond had what it called So it seems fair to say that

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relations between David Cameron and eurosceptics in his party

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aren't exactly cordial. The welfare secretary

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Iain Duncan Smith, he's one of the cabinet ministers arguing

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to leave, was asked about it You don't think the Prime Minister

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is much of a patriot, do you? This is not about personalities. They in

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campaign's whole strategy seems to be about, it is terrible, it is

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about saying that we are too small, too inconsequential and we cannot do

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what we want. I don't know why anybody would want to run a country

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like this. This country is the greatest honour. I think probably

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the first time a cabinet minister has been asked if the Prime Minister

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is a patriot and he does not reply yes. Is Mr Cameron getting the tone

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and the content of this right? I think he made a big mistake earlier

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this week when he lashed out at Boris Johnson in the Commons. I

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think there was a degree of over interpreting those comments, and I

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understand that there was a fuss about whether or not he had slighted

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Boris Johnson's personal life with a reference to knowing couples that

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had divorced. Mr Cameron thought he had Boris in the bag. He was

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certainly bruised by that. The comment on marriage went over

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Doris's aired, so there was a bit of over interpreting by people on all

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sides. -- over progress's aired. But if Cameron is being called to stop

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these attacks, he is the one who started them. Europe is just another

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word for division in the Tory Party but it almost seems like the manner

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and the tone of what the prime ministers saying, he is almost going

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out of his way to upset those opposed to him. I disagree. I think

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the grievances in the papers today are spurious. It has not been a blue

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on blue campaign so far, not a huge amount of animosity and poison so

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far although it is early days. Do they expect him not to play the

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economic risk card? Do they expect him to go through the next four mums

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using the single most devastating line of attack he has against the

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other side, which is the unknown economic has heard of taking a punt

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on Brexit? But that argument would be true even if he had brought back

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the store from Brussels or brought back nothing from Brussels. The

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economic argument is that this could be a profound shock to the world

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economy. That is either true or not true, regardless of the settlement.

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But that is not the given reason for their frustration with him. At the

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moment they are focusing on the tone and negativity. And you don't feel

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like they have the right to be aggrieved? No. It would be bizarre

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Prime Minister to lead a campaign in favour of staying in without

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deploying his most effective weapon. And what Mr Osborne is doing with

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this argument is have one very simple, crude argument in the

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general election, that Labour was not credible, and in this campaign

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that it is a leap in the dark. He needs to be careful. The idea that

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the world economy is going to tank because Britain leaves the European

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Union, that Britain leaving the union is up there with the Chinese

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fall in growth, it is absurd. What did George Osborne do? Equalled the

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G20 finance ministers to write that into their conclusions. Yes, it will

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be a challenge for the British economy if we leave the European

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Union, but the idea that it is up there as a global risk that will

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lead to some great world economic depression, I think he needs to be

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careful. He has to ensure that what he does has credibility and I am not

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sure that passes the test. What annoys a lot of the Tories is that

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they are using arguments about staying in which I've always been

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true, regardless of whether or not the settlement makes any difference.

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To say that if we came out, there would be a profound economic shock,

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that is true regardless of the settlement. I think that is what

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annoys the Eurosceptics. They are using arguments that were true six

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months ago. And many of the arguments are very thin. David

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Cameron has written for the Telegraph today saying that he can

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describe exactly what people will be voting for if they vote to stay in.

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It is the status quo, it is not very difficult to describe that. It is

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very frustrating for Eurosceptics that there is this constant spurious

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claim by the In campaign that they cannot describe what Out looks like.

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They describe what it looks like everyday. The problem is that it is

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under article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty that exit people cannot

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guarantee the deal. They can say it might be this or that but they

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cannot guarantee it because we are out of the European Council the

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moment we press the button. You wonder whether either side can

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guarantee what the country will be like whether we stay in or come out.

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We have a pretty good idea of who will be fighting on which site.

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Both the Leave and the Remain camps have their own big figures,

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and they wasted little time in putting aside old loyalties

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Let's have a look at some of the big moments of the week.

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I have known a number of couples who have begun divorce proceedings

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but I do not know any who have begun divorce proceedings in order

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This open border does not allow us to check and control people who may

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come and we have seen what has happened in Paris where they spent

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ages planning and plotting so who is to say it is not

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beyond the wit of man that those might already be thinking about it?

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Today almost 200 of Britain's biggest firms including 36

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on the FTSE 100 index published a letter warning that so-called

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Brexit would put the economy at risk.

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We have a great opportunity now to strike new deals for Britain

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to be the hub of new trading arrangements around the world

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and to have a fantastic new future so that is what I am going for.

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In my judgment as Chancellor leaving the EU would represent a profound

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economic shock for our country, for all of us and I am going to do

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everything I can to prevent that happening.

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The European Court of Justice interprets the European Union

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treaties and until this agreement is embodied in treaty change then

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the European Court of Justice is not bound by this agreement.

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You saw there a few of the Conservative allies

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David Cameron has failed to persuade of the case for remaining in the EU,

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and now I'm joined by another one - the former party leader,

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Tory peer and leave campaign Michael Howard.

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Welcome to the programme. Let's start on this idea of a second

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referendum. You have indicated that a vote to leave could jolt the rest

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of the EU into giving us a better and bigger and more compounds of

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deal. That could trigger a second referendum. Mr Cameron says that is

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fiction and Boris Johnson now says the same. Are you sticking to that?

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Yes. I cannot guarantee that would happen but it is a possibility.

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Everybody who wants us to vote Remain is going to say it is for the

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birds, and I understand that. There want us to vote to remain. Mr

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Johnson is saying that, too. And I don't agree with him. We have

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reached the same conclusion by different routes. The European Union

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has form on this. They have done it before in relation to Ireland and

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Denmark. The very things that make it certain that we would thrive as

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an independent country, the fact that we are the fifth biggest

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economy in the world, the strongest military power in Europe, the fact

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that we are the second-biggest contributor to the European Union

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budget, those things would mean that we would be sorely missed if we left

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and that is why I think the countries in Europe, the European

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leaders would say that if we voted to leave, let's have some more talks

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and let's think again. Would they? Brexit, I think, if it happens would

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happen at a time of what is clearly crisis for the EU, perhaps the worst

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crisis in its history. If it responded by giving us everything

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that the Eurosceptics wanted, there could be a rush to the door by other

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countries. Why would the EU risk that? The very fact they are in a

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crisis means they need us all the more. I cannot guarantee that they

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would. It is an unknown. There is a chance of that but if they don't

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come back, if all we are left with is the current under formed European

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Union, I think we are better out than in. OK. Turning to the

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economics. Last week we saw some of Britain's biggest companies,

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household names, warning against the dangers of leaving the EU for jobs

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and investment. Why should the British people not listen to them?

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First of all, they were a minority even of the bosses of the FTSE 100

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companies. Moore did not sign them signed. Secondly, don't take it from

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me, take it from someone with real authority, someone like Mervyn King,

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the former governor of the Bank of England, who pointed out yesterday

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that we ought to take what these people say with a pinch of salt.

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Many of them were strong adherence of us joining the euro and predicted

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economic disaster for us if we did not. But not all of them. How many

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FTSE 100 chief executives are on your side? I don't know. But many

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business people are, particularly small business people. And

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particularly business people who do most of their business with

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countries outside of the EU and who are very hampered in doing so by the

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rules to which we are in thrall. The kind of people who signed this

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letter saying we should stay in, they are also the same kind of

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people who signed the same kind of letters backing the Tories come

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election time. If you want us to listen to them, when it suits you,

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but not when they don't agree with you? They can be right about one

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thing without being right about another. He wants to pick them up

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when it suits you and disparage them when it doesn't. Can I make a point

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about this? I think we are in danger of looking at these issues through

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the wrong end of the telescope. If we leave, there are some things that

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I can absolutely guarantee. Number one, we will have our democracy

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restored, our courts and our Parliament will no longer be

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subservient to the European Union. Number two, as part of that, we will

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recover control of our borders and we will have control over who comes

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in and who doesn't. Number three, we will no longer have to contribute

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billions of pounds a year to the EU's budget. Those are certainties,

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indisputable. The onus is on those who wish us to remain 2.2 similar

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indisputable arguments which outweigh those and so far I have not

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seen them. But does it not worry you that all of our allies in the G20

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want us to stay in. Only President Putin among world leaders once asked

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to leave? Does that not cause you concerned? The British people are

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the best people to decide what is in our interest. You could also site

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the Attorney General of the United States, who said that of the

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European Union was undermining the intelligence sharing that is so

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crucial in our fight against terrorism and crime. So now, it is

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the British people who are the best people to decide what is in our

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interest. The Prime Minister says there are 3 million jobs that depend

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in some way on our trade in the European Union. He says we would not

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go training -- we would go on trading with the EU, if we left, but

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would the trade be at the same level? How many of these jobs would

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be truly safe? Can you answer that question? They want to continue

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trading with us and we are the biggest export market for the rest

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of the European Union. And we run a great deficit on trade with them so

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it is very much in their interest to continue to trade with us. We could

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do some jobs, couldn't wake Umax -- we could lose. I do not think the

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Germans would not continue selling as BMWs, or the French wine. If they

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want to continue to have access to our market, we need to make sure we

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have access to theirs. It is in our mutual interest. You say that all 3

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million jobs are guaranteed? I cannot offer you any guarantees and

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neither can the banister. The great arts profit of integration as he did

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very well, when he said that if the British do not want to sign up to

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further integration in the European Union, we can have a very friendly

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relationship with them, we can sign up to a free-trade agreement with

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them and that would be the way forward.

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Let me show you what the current Home Secretary who is the longest

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serving Home Secretary says: I have great respect for her, I

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don't quite know why she says that. I believe that we can continue to

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have a very good and constructive working relationship with the member

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states of the EU on security matters if we leave. The reason I say that

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is simply this, we contribute a great deal to that relationship, our

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intelligence services are the best in Europe. They want the help we can

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give them and so there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why we should

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not continue to have a close relationship with them on these

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matters on an intergovernmental basis. The declaration of the

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European Council, which I know you have read as carefully as I have,

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says in terms, national security is our responsibility of the nation

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states. One thing we would not have access to is the European arrest

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warrant. We could come to an agreement on that. Let's say what

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you said on that: it wouldn't be if we left. It could,

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because we could easily reach an agreement with the Europeans that

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the essentials of the European arrest warrant continued in force.

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Not all my friends on the leading side with that that I think it would

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be possible to reach such an agreement. No other non-EU member

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has use of the arrest warrant. No other nonmember is in the same

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relationship as we are. We don't know. It was used to bring back one

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of the failed London bombers from Italy and it came back quickly and

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the arrest warrant. He is now in jail, how would we do that? That is

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why I was in favour of it at the time and I think because we offer so

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much to our European neighbours in terms of the capacity which we bring

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to these issues they would be keen to continue in that sort of

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arrangement with us if we left the European Union. Let me show you what

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Rob Wainwright, the head of Europe all -- Europol said. The head of

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Europol, British, the longest serving Home Secretary, both think

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that our security would be more at risk. And the Attorney General of

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the United States accuses the European Union of undermining the

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fight against terrorism and I think in all of these issues we need to

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have some self confidence and self belief. We are a big country, an

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important country and we have a huge amount to offer in terms of

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cooperation with our neighbours. It is in the interest to continue to

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cooperate with us and I have no doubt we could reach perfectly

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satisfactory arrangements with them if we voted to leave. Finally, Mr

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Cameron was once your special adviser, you were his mentor and you

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told his mother one day that he would be Prime Minister, what did he

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say when you told him you are joining the league side? We had a

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difficult conversation, I find it difficult to be on the opposite side

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of the argument to David Cameron. He was very disappointed I had come to

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this conclusion and I understand and respect that. Michael Howard, thank

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you for being with us. So that's the case for leaving put

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by an elder statesman Let's turn now to an elder statesman

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of the Labour Party - although he's a fresh-faced one -

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it's Alan Johnson and he is leading the Labour In for Britain Group,

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and he's in Hull. Your side of the argument stresses

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the risks and uncertainties of leaving the EU, do you accept there

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are risks and uncertainties with staying? No. Not in the sense that

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Michael Howard was suggesting. I thought what he said was wrong, he

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said he could guarantee we would not be contributing to the European

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Union and could guarantee there would not be free movement but he

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cannot. If we take the Norway option which many of those on the leading

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site promote then we would indeed be paying them, Norway is the 10th

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biggest contributor. They have free movement. Why would we have to

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follow what Norway does? They are a small economy and we are the second

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largest in Europe? I am just saying that there are other options, the

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Swiss option once again. Michael cannot guarantee it. We are the

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fifth biggest economy, we were the fourth when we were in government,

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but people say that only leaving side but they do not equate it at

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all with 41 years of membership of the EU. Part of that economic

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strength, I am in Hull where there is the biggest investment any where

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in the world by Siemens, billions of pounds and 1000 jobs. They are

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building wind turbines for offshore Britain. It was fierce competition,

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if you take... They are building stuff Britain, why would they not do

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it here? If you take Britain outside the EU you have all kinds of

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uncertainties and all kinds of possible barriers. The Society of

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motor manufacturers point out that whilst sales to China and Russia

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have declined their sales to Europe are up by 10% because we don't pay

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any tariffs to export into Europe. The other point I wanted to mention

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was that Michael was part of a government which opted out of

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something called the social chapter, basic protection for workers. In

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this huge market, the biggest commercial market, bigger than China

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and America, there are protections for workers. Michael opted out of

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those and I believe that he and many others think that is good to not

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have those protections. We opted back in. For us those protections

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for workers, to avoid this country becoming a race to the bottom,

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anything goes kind of free-market experiment, are very important. Hold

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on, why couldn't the British government, why wouldn't a British

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government outside the EU replicate these rights if it was so minded,

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what would stop us from doing that if the government got the democratic

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will of the British people? The first point is as I have explained

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that a British government chose not to do that. That was Alex Goode

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British government. The British government that we were part of

:24:01.:24:06.

opted into those arrangements. There is nothing to suggest in the history

:24:07.:24:09.

of Conservative government that if we left the EU that they would opt

:24:10.:24:14.

into all this. That would be a matter for the British people to

:24:15.:24:17.

choose if they wanted that government. If we let the EU at the

:24:18.:24:23.

next election Labour would promise four weeks paid leave, rights for

:24:24.:24:27.

workers, paid maternity at the next election and if that is what the

:24:28.:24:30.

British people want they will vote for you? The people who want us to

:24:31.:24:36.

leave, the argument I am making, is that the people who want us to leave

:24:37.:24:40.

consider all of that to be red tape. They consider all of that to be

:24:41.:24:45.

bureaucracy. We believe in that kind of market that there has to be

:24:46.:24:50.

protection for consumers, for the environment and for workers. That is

:24:51.:24:53.

an important part of what Europe gives us. Non-EU countries, Norway,

:24:54.:25:01.

Australia, Canada, Iceland, they all score highly even on the trade

:25:02.:25:04.

unionist global workers rights index. Why wouldn't an independent

:25:05.:25:10.

UK, if voters were so minded to do so and I don't see any mainstream

:25:11.:25:14.

politician saying they would want to take away four weeks paid leave, why

:25:15.:25:22.

does it need Europe to do it? That's a very good question. In this

:25:23.:25:31.

country alone, it is a political consensus in countries like Norway

:25:32.:25:34.

and Sweden that there should be decent basic rights for workers. In

:25:35.:25:38.

this country it is an election issue. Why shouldn't it be an

:25:39.:25:49.

election issue? I believe if you are trading into this huge market and

:25:50.:25:53.

have got all those opportunities to trade then one aspect of that must

:25:54.:25:57.

be that you don't undercut each other on the basis of terms and

:25:58.:26:02.

conditions. I believe it's an essential part of being in Europe

:26:03.:26:06.

and that is why it is an important part of our campaign to maintain

:26:07.:26:11.

those rights and protections. Moving on to immigration, people are

:26:12.:26:15.

concerned about the scale of it, is there anything in the settlement of

:26:16.:26:18.

David Cameron that'll make a material difference to immigration

:26:19.:26:23.

from the EU? Yes there is, it is very underrated nice to. Two points

:26:24.:26:31.

which were negotiated by Theresa May that were not in the package that we

:26:32.:26:36.

saw in the Donald Tusk exchange were very important. First of all

:26:37.:26:39.

tackling sham marriages and secondly to say that people coming into this

:26:40.:26:44.

country who we suspect might be engaged in the future in activities

:26:45.:26:50.

we would find criminal or perhaps terrorism, that we can stop them

:26:51.:26:54.

coming in. That is important, at the moment it is based on what we know,

:26:55.:27:00.

not on what we predict. Sham marriages with their largely to the

:27:01.:27:04.

subcontinent and is very little to do with Europe. You asked me for two

:27:05.:27:09.

things... I don't know what difference it would make to the

:27:10.:27:15.

numbers, it is about 100 is to 5000 per year net migration coming to

:27:16.:27:18.

this country and it will continue at that level if we stay in want it?

:27:19.:27:28.

There is nothing we can do about net EU migration at that level.

:27:29.:27:33.

Absolutely. I have said that before. It was David Cameron's package. In

:27:34.:27:40.

fairness of people making contributions before taking

:27:41.:27:42.

working-class tax credits but I never thought this was a draw for

:27:43.:27:46.

people to come -- taking working tax credits. We can do something to stop

:27:47.:27:53.

the expectation and we don't need the rest of Europe to do that, I

:27:54.:27:59.

think David Cameron was right, you are right about free movement within

:28:00.:28:03.

the European Union but people are worried about movement coming from

:28:04.:28:07.

outside the European Union and outside the European Union ourselves

:28:08.:28:11.

I think we would be weaker. Not just because we'll would the protection

:28:12.:28:16.

of the Dublin accord -- not just because we will lose. The most

:28:17.:28:20.

honourable point is Calais to Dover and that operation of the Border

:28:21.:28:26.

Force moving to Calais, the mayor comes over and says teacher border

:28:27.:28:33.

backed every couple of months. That is between France and Britain, it is

:28:34.:28:36.

nothing to do with the European Union. This is the point and I think

:28:37.:28:42.

this is what Michael missed, if we wrench ourselves away from the

:28:43.:28:48.

European Union after 41 years of membership, does anyone think there

:28:49.:28:52.

will be huge goodwill out there for Britain? Here is another point about

:28:53.:29:00.

French politics, the French presidential right wing campaigns

:29:01.:29:03.

who might well win next year are saying they will get rid of it even

:29:04.:29:09.

if we stay in the European Union. There you are. So what is the point?

:29:10.:29:16.

Nothing to do with the EU. I don't think anybody doubt that if we left

:29:17.:29:22.

the EU it would seriously bring into jeopardy that arrangement and that

:29:23.:29:27.

is the most vulnerable entry point. Jeremy Corbyn believes we should not

:29:28.:29:33.

look upon immigration as a problem. Do you agree in the context of this

:29:34.:29:42.

debate about Europe? Only in the sense that it is not the driving

:29:43.:29:46.

force, people don't come here, they come here to work by and large, they

:29:47.:29:52.

don't come here to claim benefits. In that respect I do. I think as

:29:53.:29:57.

Jeremy accepts the exploitation which comes with it needs to be

:29:58.:30:03.

addressed. So to be clear the scale of immigration if we stay in the EU

:30:04.:30:09.

does not change. It might do. I will tell you why it might do, I was Home

:30:10.:30:14.

Secretary before Theresa May, the net migration figure was around

:30:15.:30:21.

165,000, very low. Because we had just gone through the collapse of

:30:22.:30:25.

Liman brothers and the economy was doing badly. If we come out of the

:30:26.:30:31.

EU and are in such a state as far as our economy is concerned it might

:30:32.:30:36.

stop people wanting to come here. OK, you said we have the best

:30:37.:30:40.

lyrics, meaning your side, but we are still struggling to put them to

:30:41.:30:45.

music, why can't you find the right chin? What I meant by that is they

:30:46.:30:52.

have simplistic let's regain the borders and regain our sovereign

:30:53.:30:58.

three and it's quite a complex argument to say actually we have got

:30:59.:31:04.

the best of both worlds. Yes we have some sovereign tree into Europe but

:31:05.:31:10.

that gives us influence over other member states and gives us a louder

:31:11.:31:14.

voice and a more powerful voice in the rest of the world. We will give

:31:15.:31:20.

you that, you love your music so we will give you time to find a tune

:31:21.:31:26.

until we meet again. Alan Johnson, thank you.

:31:27.:31:31.

Let's turn now to the bullying allegations surrounding the death

:31:32.:31:33.

of young Conservative activist Elliott Johnson.

:31:34.:31:34.

An inquest is due to open this week after the 21-year-old was found dead

:31:35.:31:38.

It's thought he took his own life weeks after raising allegations

:31:39.:31:42.

about the way he was being treated in the Conservatives' youth wing.

:31:43.:31:45.

He left behind a suicide note naming two other activists.

:31:46.:31:52.

Today, one of them, a man called Andre Walker,

:31:53.:31:57.

speaks out about his relationship with Elliott Johnson

:31:58.:31:59.

and the bullying allegations for the first time.

:32:00.:32:01.

For nearly six months a grieving family, friends,

:32:02.:32:10.

colleagues and the media have been trying to fathom why a young

:32:11.:32:13.

conservative activist, 21-year-old Elliot Johnson,

:32:14.:32:14.

lay down on a railway line and took his own life.

:32:15.:32:17.

The student vote is really important.

:32:18.:32:20.

Just months before, he had been an enthusiastic volunteer for Road

:32:21.:32:23.

We are going to be deciding the general election.

:32:24.:32:26.

This was the brainchild of a former Conservative candidate,

:32:27.:32:30.

Mark Clarke, that would bus young conservatives around the country

:32:31.:32:33.

to campaign on doorsteps during the 2015 general election.

:32:34.:32:36.

Are you going to help change the future of our country?

:32:37.:32:56.

Since the death of Elliott, lurid headlines have reported

:32:57.:32:59.

complaints being made against Mr Clarke

:33:00.:33:00.

of bullying, sexual impropriety and blackmail in relation

:33:01.:33:03.

All of which Mr Clarke vigorously denies.

:33:04.:33:06.

Accusations of a Conservative cover-up have led to the resignation

:33:07.:33:08.

of former party co-chairman Grant Shapps, pressure

:33:09.:33:10.

on the current chairman Lord Feldman, Mr Clarke banned

:33:11.:33:13.

from the party for life, and an internal party investigation

:33:14.:33:16.

underway already widely criticised by the Johnson family.

:33:17.:33:19.

Elliott left a note to be read after his death directly accusing

:33:20.:33:23.

Mr Clarke of bullying him and another person,

:33:24.:33:25.

The note was not all that Elliott left, there was also a secret

:33:26.:33:34.

recording of a night at a pub with all three of them

:33:35.:33:38.

in which Andre Walker appears aggressive and threatening over

:33:39.:33:41.

an official complaint Elliott was going to make about Mr Clarke.

:33:42.:34:02.

In the six months which have followed, Andre Walker has been

:34:03.:34:07.

portrayed in the media as Mr Clarke's henchmen,

:34:08.:34:10.

ready to strongarm those who stood in his way.

:34:11.:34:21.

Now in his first interview Mr Walker gives his side of events

:34:22.:34:24.

nature of his friendship with Elliot Johnson.

:34:25.:34:26.

The Andre Walker that the public has seen so far in relation to this

:34:27.:34:30.

story, is that an Andre Walker you recognise?

:34:31.:34:32.

If I take you back to the day that the covert recording took

:34:33.:34:36.

place, Elliott asked me to come with him to meet with Mark Clarke

:34:37.:34:39.

which was a meeting that he wanted to discuss the problems they had.

:34:40.:34:42.

I met Elliott beforehand and we went to the pub together and met Mark.

:34:43.:34:45.

What you hear is me getting frustrated partway through

:34:46.:34:47.

What you don't hear, what wasn't released to most

:34:48.:34:51.

of the media was at the end Elliott inviting me back to his place

:34:52.:34:54.

because I had missed the last train and us leaving the pub together.

:34:55.:35:00.

If you look at that secret recording, it sounds

:35:01.:35:02.

like you are some kind of hatchet man for Mark Clarke.

:35:03.:35:07.

I think everyone who is fat and from the North of England

:35:08.:35:14.

and involved in politics gets accused of being a bruiser

:35:15.:35:17.

and it is something I never took particularly seriously,

:35:18.:35:20.

I don't recognise the criticism and I think the media has called

:35:21.:35:25.

almost everyone I have ever met in politics and who are these

:35:26.:35:28.

people that I bullied or threatened or harangued?

:35:29.:35:29.

Nobody has come forward, in fact there is plenty of evidence

:35:30.:35:32.

that I didn't do any of those things.

:35:33.:35:34.

What was the nature of the relationship

:35:35.:35:36.

So, Mark Clarke introduced me to Elliott because we both had

:35:37.:35:40.

We hit it off straightaway and the relationship started

:35:41.:35:43.

It lasted until the day he died, as far as I was concerned.

:35:44.:35:50.

The reason I have been coy about that is I know that saying

:35:51.:35:53.

I'm very sorry about that and it is not my intention to go out

:35:54.:35:58.

We have got to discuss this issue, we have to discuss the issue

:35:59.:36:04.

of homophobia and why people, even as close to him as me were not

:36:05.:36:07.

told about the mental health problems.

:36:08.:36:09.

This is a reference to a British Transport Police report

:36:10.:36:11.

prepared ahead of this weeks inquest seen by Mr Walker.

:36:12.:36:20.

The Daily Mail has reported that it suggests:

:36:21.:36:30.

But also that Elliot Johnson had made previous

:36:31.:36:32.

health issues relating to his being accepted as gay.

:36:33.:36:38.

Speaking to the BBC in response to the story, his father denies

:36:39.:36:41.

It is not relevant, Elliott took his life because he had been

:36:42.:36:51.

bullied and picked on generally by certain persons and let down

:36:52.:36:54.

by other organisations around the Conservative Party.

:36:55.:36:56.

He was treated badly, that is why he took his life.

:36:57.:37:02.

He was treated appallingly by people and organisations and we want

:37:03.:37:11.

to make sure that he receives justice for what happened to him.

:37:12.:37:14.

Many of Andre Walker's old friends have blamed him and shunned him.

:37:15.:37:16.

He says that has prevented him from being able to grieve.

:37:17.:37:19.

I was not able to go to the funeral service.

:37:20.:37:21.

Because of the things which were said about me.

:37:22.:37:24.

That was very hurtful because I would have liked

:37:25.:37:26.

Similarly I don't know where Elliott's final resting place is,

:37:27.:37:29.

I would like to visit it, whether that is going to be possible

:37:30.:37:32.

The one memorial service I was able to go to somebody screamed at me

:37:33.:37:39.

and I was effectively thrown out which has just made it impossible

:37:40.:37:43.

for me to pay my respects in the way that I feel I ought to.

:37:44.:37:46.

How would you describe Elliott as a person?

:37:47.:37:49.

He was great fun, we used to go out and have a real laugh and I think

:37:50.:37:54.

that this sort of sad life which people have characterised him

:37:55.:37:58.

as having in London where it was all very depressing and he didn't have

:37:59.:38:07.

many friends and people were bullying him on a day-to-day

:38:08.:38:10.

basis, to my mind is surely not him at all and I think it is sad that

:38:11.:38:14.

It's just gone 11.35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:38:15.:38:17.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:38:18.:38:20.

we'll be talking about Jeremy Corbyn's appearance

:38:21.:38:26.

at a rally for CND, and a big week in the race to the White House.

:38:27.:38:39.

Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics Wales.

:38:40.:38:42.

Must do better - a year after it was announced,

:38:43.:38:44.

MPs say the Wales Bill should be put on hold so it can be improved.

:38:45.:38:48.

And why thousands of women like Elizabeth are having to wait

:38:49.:38:50.

It was hailed as the way to decide what's devolved once and for all,

:38:51.:38:56.

but now there are more questions than answers over the Wales Bill.

:38:57.:39:00.

It claims to devolve more powers to Cardiff Bay but today

:39:01.:39:03.

the Welsh Affairs Select Committee of MPs says it should be put on hold

:39:04.:39:07.

because there are too many issues which need to be sorted out.

:39:08.:39:10.

Here's what its chair, the Conservative MP David Davies,

:39:11.:39:12.

Here it was difficult to get a collective consensus

:39:13.:39:18.

because there are some members of the committee who,

:39:19.:39:20.

at one end, would like powers taken away from the Assembly,

:39:21.:39:24.

there are others who would like an independent Wales,

:39:25.:39:27.

so what I would say as somebody who sits as chair is that there

:39:28.:39:32.

are concerns over how the decisions had been arrived at on all sides

:39:33.:39:38.

and we thought that perhaps some of the decisions about which powers

:39:39.:39:42.

should go towards the Assembly could be better explained.

:39:43.:39:46.

Well, joining me now to explain what's going on is Manon George

:39:47.:39:50.

who's an expert in the law governing Welsh devolution.

:39:51.:39:58.

Thank you for coming in. We have heard what the committee said but as

:39:59.:40:05.

you see it, what are the main problems? It is good to see that the

:40:06.:40:10.

Welsh office committee have conducted this pre-legislative crew

:40:11.:40:14.

tinny because it is not happy with all the Parliament bills so people

:40:15.:40:18.

have had their chance to have their say about the Bill and the Secretary

:40:19.:40:22.

of State has consulted widely. They have raised the same concerns as we

:40:23.:40:27.

did at the Wales governance Centre, so the main issue would be the list

:40:28.:40:31.

of reserved powers. The list of things that the Assembly cannot

:40:32.:40:36.

legislate on. It is generally considered to be the best way of

:40:37.:40:39.

devolving power so devolving everything except for particular

:40:40.:40:42.

matters which are reserved to Westminster. But whether it is a

:40:43.:40:48.

better model or not depends on the list of reservations and the width

:40:49.:40:55.

and depth of those reservations and they argue there are too many

:40:56.:41:01.

reservations. General reservations and specific reservations. So it is

:41:02.:41:04.

a very complex list of things they cannot legislate on. So Whitehall

:41:05.:41:10.

departments have just decided, we are not going to give away those

:41:11.:41:15.

powers. If that is the case, how has that been allowed to happen? It

:41:16.:41:20.

seems to be a process of a trawl through Whitehall departments of

:41:21.:41:23.

what they are willing to devolve and what they want to keep and one of

:41:24.:41:27.

the reasons for keeping so many powers back is that desire to

:41:28.:41:33.

maintain a unified legal system for England and. But legislating in

:41:34.:41:39.

Wales, those laws become part of the laws of England and were. There is

:41:40.:41:43.

quite a complex system and legislating can have a knock-on

:41:44.:41:47.

effect on how the law operates in England. But shouldn't the Wales

:41:48.:41:52.

Office and Stephen Crabb, the Secretary of State for where is, be

:41:53.:41:58.

more hands-on? Just say, you justify why you should be allowed to keep

:41:59.:42:03.

that. Is that a way around this? There needs to be justification for

:42:04.:42:07.

every reservation. Reservations should be based on principles, so

:42:08.:42:13.

why do these reservations need to be reservations, why are we keeping

:42:14.:42:17.

these things back? The important thing is to have a clear and

:42:18.:42:22.

sustainable devolution settlement. This is the fourth proposal now for

:42:23.:42:26.

devolution in Wales so I am sure people are fed up of talking about

:42:27.:42:30.

the constitution and it is a time to have a settled settlement for Wales.

:42:31.:42:36.

Therefore, the Wales Bill, this current set of... Should it be

:42:37.:42:43.

scrapped and started all over again or can it be salvaged? It is time to

:42:44.:42:49.

take Wales seriously and we need to think about the devolution

:42:50.:42:52.

settlement that will last. I think there are things that can be done

:42:53.:42:57.

with the Bill. It does not have to be scrapped but it is time to take a

:42:58.:43:01.

step back to revise the Bill and think about those big questions. The

:43:02.:43:07.

list of reservations, also the necessity test. There is a test as

:43:08.:43:11.

to whether it is necessary to legislate on something. The criminal

:43:12.:43:17.

law and the private law are also reserved, which cause huge

:43:18.:43:20.

difficulties for the Assembly in legislating because to make the law

:43:21.:43:26.

in forcible, you need to be able to provide sanctions. Also, the

:43:27.:43:32.

question of a legal system for Wales. That question is not

:43:33.:43:35.

addressed in the Bill so whether Wales should have its own legal

:43:36.:43:41.

system. Do you think that legal system, the courts and those things,

:43:42.:43:45.

should be run from Wales rather than on an England and will basis? Is

:43:46.:43:52.

that necessary to move forward? I think it needs to be identified that

:43:53.:43:56.

there is a body of Welsh law and laws made in Wales for the people of

:43:57.:44:00.

Wales should only extend to Wales so that only Welsh judges could be able

:44:01.:44:06.

to decide on cases involving Welsh law. The purpose of devolution was

:44:07.:44:11.

to bring government closer to the people so decision-making should

:44:12.:44:14.

also be brought closer to the people. Is there a problem with

:44:15.:44:18.

having a distinct Welsh legal system, it has been tangled up with

:44:19.:44:22.

England for so long, and picking that might be difficult. I think it

:44:23.:44:26.

would be more straightforward than we think because if we are making

:44:27.:44:33.

laws that apply only to Wales since before the days of devolution, acts

:44:34.:44:37.

of the UK Parliament which apply only to Wales, and judges are very

:44:38.:44:41.

used to applying different bodies of law. We have two apply EU law, human

:44:42.:44:46.

rights laws, so I don't think it would be as difficult as people

:44:47.:44:51.

think, and we would not necessarily have to have a completely separate

:44:52.:44:56.

system. We would not have to have a separate court system, separate

:44:57.:45:00.

prisons, we don't even have two devolve the administration of

:45:01.:45:08.

justice. We could have courts in Wales only applying Welsh law. But

:45:09.:45:11.

that is not included in this Bill so that would have to be another

:45:12.:45:13.

commission on devolution. The Welsh government have proposed an

:45:14.:45:16.

amendment to the draft Wales Bill which would provide for a distinct

:45:17.:45:21.

jurisdiction so they suggest it is just a matter of amending the Bill.

:45:22.:45:25.

That is what I would like to see in the next draft of the Wales Bill.

:45:26.:45:31.

The next draft of the next draft! Thank you very much.

:45:32.:45:33.

It must be a pretty good time to be a Ukip supporter.

:45:34.:45:36.

The party's main aim - a referendum on our membership

:45:37.:45:39.

of the EU - is around the corner, and if you look at the opinion

:45:40.:45:42.

polls, they're also set to get their first Members

:45:43.:45:44.

So why do we hear so many stories of back stabbing and

:45:45.:45:49.

Well, this weekend, Ukip have been spending some time at the seaside

:45:50.:45:54.

at their Spring Conference in Llandudno.

:45:55.:45:55.

Ukip's Welsh Leader, Nathan Gill, has been speaking to our reporter

:45:56.:45:58.

Nathan Gill, welcome to Sunday Politics Wales.

:45:59.:46:04.

Let's start with a question about Ukip Wales' identity.

:46:05.:46:07.

Many voters in Wales who are perhaps sceptical about devolution have seen

:46:08.:46:10.

Ukip as the party that most mirrors their views.

:46:11.:46:12.

You took to the stage this weekend and told members to vote to leave

:46:13.:46:16.

the EU to give the Assembly more power.

:46:17.:46:18.

Does Ukip Wales have an identity crisis?

:46:19.:46:21.

There is no difference in the fact that we are sceptical

:46:22.:46:25.

about devolution but we want it to work.

:46:26.:46:28.

We have seen for ourselves how 15, 16 years of Labour-run devolution

:46:29.:46:34.

has not delivered for the people of Wales so no wonder the people

:46:35.:46:37.

of Wales are not very happy with devolution.

:46:38.:46:40.

Not very happy with the institutions, with

:46:41.:46:43.

the Cardiff-centric politicians, and we see and we feel

:46:44.:46:47.

that we have a place in widening that and allowing people to feel

:46:48.:46:52.

more a part of devolution by devolving things closer to them,

:46:53.:46:57.

which is obviously at the council level.

:46:58.:47:00.

But on one hand you talk about more power for the Assembly,

:47:01.:47:03.

at the same time you have policies announced this weekend saying no

:47:04.:47:06.

more AMs and no tax powers without a referendum.

:47:07.:47:10.

Absolutely, but as we have said, we've got the fishing waters,

:47:11.:47:14.

200 miles of fishing around Wales, which right now,

:47:15.:47:19.

through the Common Fisheries programme, anybody from all over

:47:20.:47:23.

Europe can come and fish and take our natural resources.

:47:24.:47:29.

Absolutely the people of Wales can have those resources taken back

:47:30.:47:35.

when we leave the EU because that is the reality of it.

:47:36.:47:39.

Another thing that has characterised the conference this weekend

:47:40.:47:42.

is the split within the leave camp between grassroots out,

:47:43.:47:46.

Ukip-backed and Nigel Farage-backed, and Vote Leave, your MP

:47:47.:47:50.

Douglas Carswell a part of that campaign.

:47:51.:47:53.

They even had a fringe event at the same time

:47:54.:47:55.

What are you going to do to make sure there is a united leave

:47:56.:48:01.

What we need to wait for is the designation,

:48:02.:48:06.

the official designation, because as soon as that happens,

:48:07.:48:08.

everybody who wants to leave, all of the Brexiteers,

:48:09.:48:12.

we will all galvanise behind that and we will all push forward.

:48:13.:48:16.

It is obvious that is what we are going to do.

:48:17.:48:19.

Have you had discussions with Andrew RT Davies about a united message

:48:20.:48:21.

No, I have had no discussions with him at all.

:48:22.:48:27.

Is that something you would look to do?

:48:28.:48:29.

Everybody who wants to leave the EU, we should join forces and we should

:48:30.:48:34.

combine our skill set and the activists we have got

:48:35.:48:39.

to make sure we get the vote out and that we sell the positive

:48:40.:48:43.

Let's turn to the months of internal rowing in Ukip Wales ahead

:48:44.:48:51.

of the Assembly election candidate selections.

:48:52.:48:55.

John Atkinson, a close colleague of yours, you have worked with him

:48:56.:48:59.

for some years on election campaigns for Ukip Wales.

:49:00.:49:03.

He resigned on Thursday saying that, frankly, all the infighting had

:49:04.:49:06.

become a distraction from what he sees as the prime focus

:49:07.:49:10.

Nobody gets into politics to infight, nobody gets

:49:11.:49:21.

into politics in order to fight your own people.

:49:22.:49:23.

What we want and what we need is a cohesive direction with regards

:49:24.:49:28.

to the two big campaigns that we need to fight.

:49:29.:49:31.

The Welsh Assembly and the biggest one of our lives, leaving the EU.

:49:32.:49:36.

I completely agree with John, there is a distraction.

:49:37.:49:41.

Many people joined Ukip not so we could get Assembly Members

:49:42.:49:44.

elected but because they knew the biggest battle of our political

:49:45.:49:48.

Part of that destraction has been a petition calling for you to step

:49:49.:49:57.

There has been a drip, drip of negative stories.

:49:58.:50:02.

How personally draining has that been?

:50:03.:50:05.

Have you considered walking away like John has?

:50:06.:50:07.

Look, I got into politics, the main reason being I wanted us

:50:08.:50:14.

to leave the EU and I could see that politics in Britain was broken

:50:15.:50:18.

and certainly politics in Wales is broken.

:50:19.:50:21.

The Welsh Assembly has not and is continuing to not deliver

:50:22.:50:24.

for us so I believe there is a very important job for us to do,

:50:25.:50:29.

I really believe that we can do that so I don't want to walk away

:50:30.:50:37.

from that, I want to make sure that we get that job done.

:50:38.:50:41.

So if you get elected to Cardiff Bay and then the group has

:50:42.:50:44.

a leadership election, you would throw yourself into that?

:50:45.:50:47.

Who knows how you will feel tomorrow?

:50:48.:50:54.

What should Ukip's role be in the Assembly?

:50:55.:50:58.

You have talked about opposition, providing scrutiny of

:50:59.:51:00.

Nigel Farage on BBC Radio Wales this weekend said you would be open

:51:01.:51:05.

to working with other parties, open to coalition deals.

:51:06.:51:08.

Well, if there was a chance for us to work in a grand coalition to get

:51:09.:51:15.

rid of the failing Labour administration and to actually

:51:16.:51:20.

improve the lot of the people of Wales, we would have to do that

:51:21.:51:24.

because the reason why we got into politics, each of us,

:51:25.:51:28.

is to improve the lot of our fellow man here in Wales.

:51:29.:51:31.

That is why Nigel talks about that, but whether that would be

:51:32.:51:35.

Plaid Cymru would need to work with us and I am not sure

:51:36.:51:43.

When we say that we need to be a strong opposition,

:51:44.:51:48.

it is because we are being realistic and honest about this with people.

:51:49.:51:52.

We know that we are not going to be running Cardiff Bay by ourselves.

:51:53.:51:58.

We know that, so what we are saying is, we will be that strong

:51:59.:52:02.

opposition that is needed for any government to behave properly.

:52:03.:52:06.

Next Sunday is Mothering Sunday, and while many women will be looking

:52:07.:52:16.

forward to being spoiled by their families, others are facing

:52:17.:52:19.

Thousands of women across Wales say they were not told they'd have

:52:20.:52:25.

to wait longer to get their pensions as part of plans to equalise

:52:26.:52:28.

It's a part of the world that we will never see again.

:52:29.:52:36.

I don't suppose we will ever go back to Australia.

:52:37.:52:39.

Spending more quality time with her husband Brian is exactly

:52:40.:52:43.

how Elisabeth Conway expected to spend her 60s.

:52:44.:52:47.

Elizabeth, from Tonteg near Pontypridd, retired as a nurse

:52:48.:52:50.

when she was 58, expecting to start receiving a state pension

:52:51.:52:55.

when she turns 63 later this year, but soon after leaving work

:52:56.:52:59.

she was forced to go back after finding out she would not be

:53:00.:53:03.

getting her state pension for another three years.

:53:04.:53:06.

You think you are going to have your pension at a set age,

:53:07.:53:10.

which would add again if you have got a pension,

:53:11.:53:14.

add to that, and it would give you a reasonably good life.

:53:15.:53:18.

But now I have to work to get money to do the things we want to do.

:53:19.:53:28.

The confusion has come from efforts to bring the state pension age

:53:29.:53:33.

For years, as men got their state pension at 65, women

:53:34.:53:39.

Legislation passed 20 years ago set out a timetable to equalise those

:53:40.:53:46.

ages at 65 by 2020, but then in 2011, the UK Coalition Government

:53:47.:53:53.

brought that deadline forward to 2018.

:53:54.:53:56.

The state pension age will increase further to 66 for both men and women

:53:57.:54:02.

For Elizabeth and many thousands like her, the main issue has been

:54:03.:54:09.

My daughter expects to work until she is 66, even 70.

:54:10.:54:15.

More than 2.5 million women, an entire generation, are affected.

:54:16.:54:32.

Thousands have signed a petition and expressed anger

:54:33.:54:35.

on social media pages set up by the Women Against State Pension

:54:36.:54:40.

It has been pointed out many women are already disadvantaged

:54:41.:54:46.

in retirement, having been paid less in the workplace and often having

:54:47.:54:51.

The government thought this was a group of women that

:54:52.:54:56.

could be pushed to one side so that they could save a few pound

:54:57.:54:59.

What has happened in reality is, they have been proved to be

:55:00.:55:05.

The simple answer would be for the government to look at this

:55:06.:55:10.

and make some kind of offer to these ladies to fill the gap between now

:55:11.:55:14.

and the time when they are entitled to their state pension.

:55:15.:55:18.

And that is exactly what campaigners are calling for but the Department

:55:19.:55:22.

for Work and Pensions insists it has no intention of revisiting the state

:55:23.:55:26.

Prolonging the inequality between men and women would cost

:55:27.:55:32.

It also insists letters were sent to all the affected women advising

:55:33.:55:39.

The DWP's Cardiff office shares a site with the Equality

:55:40.:55:45.

and Human Rights Commission, which supports the principle

:55:46.:55:49.

of equal state pension ages for men and women.

:55:50.:55:52.

However, the commission is disappointed with the way

:55:53.:55:56.

What has been a serious problem is the failure to communicate

:55:57.:56:01.

properly with women to let them know the situation.

:56:02.:56:04.

Unaware of the fact that women who have planned their retirement

:56:05.:56:07.

for a long time, suddenly have discovered that they are not

:56:08.:56:10.

going to get their pensions as quickly as they thought and have

:56:11.:56:13.

had to carry on working longer so this is a failure

:56:14.:56:16.

Although we support the change, it should have been

:56:17.:56:20.

The commission is now calling for more action to address

:56:21.:56:25.

inequalities it claims still exist between men and women

:56:26.:56:28.

in the workplace, including salaries and access to senior positions.

:56:29.:56:32.

Elizabeth is still trying to find the time to do the things she enjoys

:56:33.:56:36.

like carving gifts for her grandchildren.

:56:37.:56:39.

As the country tries to cope with an ageing population,

:56:40.:56:42.

future generations will have to work longer still before they can

:56:43.:56:46.

Ian Thomas is Chief Executive of Age Cymru.

:56:47.:56:57.

Thank you for coming in. You talk to older people throughout Wales every

:56:58.:57:08.

day. What is the scale of the problem? This is a big problem. I

:57:09.:57:13.

think that story very well illustrates the dilemma these women

:57:14.:57:20.

face at the moment. Many things said in that piece are important,

:57:21.:57:25.

particularly the lack of communication and the need for these

:57:26.:57:28.

better transitional arrangements. The state pension is by far the

:57:29.:57:32.

biggest proportion of benefit that comes to people. It is a right

:57:33.:57:39.

anyway. It is so important for people in later life. When you talk

:57:40.:57:44.

about transitional arrangements, the Department of pensions said they are

:57:45.:57:47.

not going to consider that but the point would be, this has been 20

:57:48.:57:52.

years in the making. It is not as if it has come out of the blue. That is

:57:53.:57:58.

not strictly true because they accelerated the convergence of

:57:59.:58:02.

pension ages very quickly at a much later stage. Many people feel very

:58:03.:58:09.

aggrieved, older people we talk to feel very aggrieved that the

:58:10.:58:12.

communication was poor around that and that many people have been left

:58:13.:58:17.

in the lurch. Elizabeth's story is quite telling. So there are

:58:18.:58:22.

thousands of women in Wales who were not aware of the changes? We think

:58:23.:58:28.

even tens of thousands. We operate a helpline and we took 35,000 calls

:58:29.:58:36.

between 2014-15. 25,000 's of those calls were concerning welfare and

:58:37.:58:40.

health. We have done a lot of work with older people in order to get

:58:41.:58:44.

their pension rights up there. We talked to a lady recently who

:58:45.:58:50.

believes she is going to lose up to ?10,000 in pension benefits. That is

:58:51.:58:54.

very significant for an older person. When you refer to the

:58:55.:58:57.

transitional arrangements, what could be done? For those women in

:58:58.:59:05.

particular who fall in that two-year period between 1951 and 1953, they

:59:06.:59:10.

should be more money in the system to support them. We must not forget

:59:11.:59:16.

as well that men and women between those two dates will have different

:59:17.:59:20.

pension arrangements. One will be from the old system and one from the

:59:21.:59:25.

new system. We are not trying to make value judgments about which is

:59:26.:59:28.

the best system but they should be money to help women like Elizabeth.

:59:29.:59:34.

Women born after the 6th of April 1951 will get this new settlement.

:59:35.:59:40.

Let's assume that nothing you want to see happens, it goes along as

:59:41.:59:44.

planned by the UK Government, what should those be doing if this is the

:59:45.:59:52.

first day are hearing of it? I think anybody coming close to pension age

:59:53.:59:56.

should get in touch with the Department for Work and Pensions.

:59:57.:59:59.

They can ask for it pension statement so they can see to what

:00:00.:00:03.

they are entitled. They can also ring our helpline. And we have got

:00:04.:00:09.

skilled advisors to help people on that. It is really about no win, and

:00:10.:00:14.

older people just need to know where they are going to sit. The current

:00:15.:00:19.

arrangements, where there is a lot less money in the system, means a

:00:20.:00:24.

lot of older people come to us and ask us for advice around pension

:00:25.:00:29.

credits. In time, if the new system works, that will be alleviated, that

:00:30.:00:33.

problem, which will mean more money in the economy for Wales and for

:00:34.:00:37.

older people generally. I am assuming what you agree with what

:00:38.:00:44.

Kate Bennett said about a lack of communication. Did the UK Government

:00:45.:00:52.

get in touch with you? No. Subsequently, someone from the

:00:53.:00:54.

Department for Work and Pensions contacted my office last week to

:00:55.:00:57.

help distribute leaflets and information but it is a bit like

:00:58.:01:03.

shutting the gate after the war -- horse has bolted because as we saw

:01:04.:01:07.

this afternoon, many older people across Wales have ended up in some

:01:08.:01:12.

dismay about where they sit financially. Thank you very much for

:01:13.:01:14.

coming in. Don't forget to follow

:01:15.:01:17.

all the latest on twitter Diolch am wylio, thanks

:01:18.:01:20.

for watching. and Andrew Rossendale, thank you as

:01:21.:01:26.

well. Back to Andrew. We were talking earlier about

:01:27.:01:38.

divisions in the Conservative Party over Europe, but of course they're

:01:39.:01:41.

not the only party that's split over Yesterday Jeremy Corbyn addressed

:01:42.:01:44.

thousands at a rally for the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament

:01:45.:01:49.

in London, where he condemned Trident - a nuclear weapon

:01:50.:01:52.

that his party still They reckon it is the biggest

:01:53.:02:08.

anti-nuclear weapons March for a generation. Which means it is like

:02:09.:02:13.

the Oscars. For people with causes. The civil service union, it is one

:02:14.:02:19.

of the few unions against Trident instead of four Trident. We are

:02:20.:02:24.

giving free food for the people. We are from Hare Krishna. Don't make

:02:25.:02:30.

weapons, make food. We are here to draw attention to the links between

:02:31.:02:34.

nuclear power and nuclear weapons. This country should not have gone in

:02:35.:02:38.

for either of them but now we have the chance to get out of both of

:02:39.:02:42.

them. The only good bomb is a Yager bomb. You might disagree this

:02:43.:02:52.

morning. We have had a better time than anyone who has had to deal with

:02:53.:02:58.

Trident. Also there, Caroline Lucas and Nicola Sturgeon. This lady had

:02:59.:03:03.

an amazing knitted Jeremy Corbyn but the big draw was the man himself,

:03:04.:03:08.

who has devoted his adult life to the staff. Many of us have marched

:03:09.:03:12.

for many years and met for many years with the view that we bring

:03:13.:03:18.

about a peaceful world by arguing peacefully for it, putting forward

:03:19.:03:21.

the logical alternatives and showing two people the horror of war and the

:03:22.:03:27.

total horror of nuclear weapons, should they ever be used by anybody.

:03:28.:03:32.

A lot of Jeremy Corbyn's party agree with him. A survey of Labour members

:03:33.:03:38.

published this week showed that more than two thirds of them want to

:03:39.:03:43.

scrap Trident. The issue is that quite a lot of Labour MPs and trade

:03:44.:03:47.

unions do not think that way. I think he would have something better

:03:48.:03:50.

to do than being there along with the leaders of the Green Party, the

:03:51.:03:55.

SNP and Plaid Cymru. There was a conference just a couple of days ago

:03:56.:03:59.

with the GMB union who represent the workers in the shipyards, and they

:04:00.:04:05.

are proud of their skills and worried about their future. They

:04:06.:04:08.

want that sorted out quickly. That is a strong message to David Cameron

:04:09.:04:14.

and to Jeremy Corbyn. This week, the Labour branch of the campaign for

:04:15.:04:18.

nuclear disarmament was criticised after publishing a fact file that

:04:19.:04:22.

appears to compare Trident with World War II gas chambers. I think

:04:23.:04:29.

alluding to the gas chambers in this context is utterly grotesque. The

:04:30.:04:32.

truth is that the gas chambers were never a form of deterrent, they were

:04:33.:04:38.

never a method of war. They were not legitimate. In the 40s or at any

:04:39.:04:42.

time. They were about genocide, about wiping out a race of people.

:04:43.:04:47.

And to compare those things with the discussion that we are having here

:04:48.:04:52.

about a nuclear deterrent, I think it is utterly grotesque. The task of

:04:53.:04:58.

clearing it all up falls to the Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily

:04:59.:05:01.

Thornbury, reviewing party policy. Although that might not be done

:05:02.:05:08.

before the Commons as to vote on new in Trident submarines later this

:05:09.:05:15.

year. And reporting for the -- from the CND demo. Yesterday was supposed

:05:16.:05:19.

to be Labour's day of campaigning for the European Union. But Mr

:05:20.:05:23.

Corbyn went to this big rally and that is what has been in the news.

:05:24.:05:29.

Discuss. Well, in his heart of hearts, it is not so much that

:05:30.:05:32.

Jeremy Corbyn does not want Britain to be in the European Union, he just

:05:33.:05:36.

does not want the European Union to exist. He thinks it is part of the

:05:37.:05:40.

global liberal capitalist conspiracy, and you heard him in the

:05:41.:05:45.

TV debates of the leadership contest, he does not really like the

:05:46.:05:48.

ewe but he is boxed into a corner and he has to pretend that he does.

:05:49.:05:52.

I was told at one stage she toyed with coming out against Britain's

:05:53.:06:01.

membership. Another edition -- in the leadership campaign he made some

:06:02.:06:05.

tortured remarks. I remember asking him to clarify his thinking and then

:06:06.:06:10.

there was a slightly awkward statement in which he said he would

:06:11.:06:15.

campaign for reform from within. And then later in the TV debates he was

:06:16.:06:17.

very harsh against the European Union. He does not really like it

:06:18.:06:22.

but he is boxed into a corner because for Jeremy Corbyn, there are

:06:23.:06:26.

more important battles and the more important battle is Trident. He has

:06:27.:06:30.

been a member of the CND since 1966 and that is what he thinks. He has

:06:31.:06:37.

been entirely consistent on this. He's strike the Parliamentary Labour

:06:38.:06:41.

Party. He does not go to the meetings. And he wants to get the

:06:42.:06:47.

membership, this new membership in the country behind him, maybe even

:06:48.:06:49.

the party conference behind him, and that is how he would get his way.

:06:50.:06:54.

The macro that is absolutely right. If you talk to moderate figures in

:06:55.:06:57.

the Labour Party, privately they will say that this is not actually

:06:58.:07:02.

about Trident although there is no doubting Jeremy Corbyn's sincere

:07:03.:07:05.

beliefs. A lot of this is about control of the Labour Party. I think

:07:06.:07:09.

the problem for Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party as a whole is this

:07:10.:07:13.

reinforces the impression of a party that is talking to itself. Of

:07:14.:07:17.

course, all parties in opposition need to do that to some extent, but

:07:18.:07:22.

with a view to renewing and coming out stronger. And that is not going

:07:23.:07:25.

to be the outcome of this very divisive debate. What are your

:07:26.:07:31.

thoughts on this? It is a typically caught the night thing to do,

:07:32.:07:35.

because it is more focused on transforming the Labour Party than

:07:36.:07:37.

on policy outcome. He cannot seriously believe that this country

:07:38.:07:41.

is not going to renew Trident. He cannot seriously believe that the

:07:42.:07:45.

other nuclear powers would do something similar. What matters most

:07:46.:07:49.

to those around him is redefining what the Labour Party is

:07:50.:07:53.

permanently. It is a catastrophe for the party because it is not as if

:07:54.:07:59.

the political problem only kicks in if he successfully changes party

:08:00.:08:04.

policy. Just having the debate on Trident is problematic in and of

:08:05.:08:07.

itself. It was barmy in the 80s and to do it now when the number of

:08:08.:08:11.

nuclear powers is higher and the number of people who are rational is

:08:12.:08:14.

lower, it will strike voters as curious. Let's hope he goes to the

:08:15.:08:19.

DLP tomorrow because it is always fun when he does. Speaking of that,

:08:20.:08:25.

the American presidential elections went along with through in the

:08:26.:08:29.

process yesterday. Yesterday was the Democratic primary in South Carolina

:08:30.:08:33.

and Mrs Clinton won against Bernie Sanders and this is what she said

:08:34.:08:37.

after her landslide victory. Despite what you hear, we do not need to

:08:38.:08:41.

make America a great again. America has never stopped being great.

:08:42.:08:54.

CHEERING. But we do need to make America whole

:08:55.:09:02.

again. Instead of building walls, we need to be tearing down the

:09:03.:09:08.

barriers. Hillary Clinton in South Carolina. They move on super

:09:09.:09:13.

Tuesday, this coming Tuesday. I would suggest that the significance

:09:14.:09:17.

of that is twofold. That is a woman who thinks she has won the

:09:18.:09:25.

nomination and she probably has. Secondly, she is turning her

:09:26.:09:28.

attention to Donald Trump because make America great again is his

:09:29.:09:33.

campaign slogan. She thinks she is up against Trump in the election.

:09:34.:09:37.

All the indications are that she has won of the Democratic nomination.

:09:38.:09:41.

Marco Rubio could win the Republican nomination but it would take quite a

:09:42.:09:45.

circuitous route, maybe going to the convention floor. Which it has not

:09:46.:09:50.

done in my lifetime. And you can imagine how poisonous that would be

:09:51.:09:55.

for the party. I think it will be Hillary Clinton versus someone,

:09:56.:09:59.

probably versus Donald Trump. And I think the thing I take away from it

:10:00.:10:04.

is that as farcical as Trump is, as much of a blowhard as he is, and as

:10:05.:10:09.

crazy as this memory campaign is, it shows that a country can succeed

:10:10.:10:13.

despite its politics. And America has been doing this for decades. In

:10:14.:10:17.

the Texas debate, Mr Trump did not do so well. He was attacked on both

:10:18.:10:23.

sides from Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz, the junior senator for Texas.

:10:24.:10:26.

Although Trump must still be the favourite, he is not yet at the

:10:27.:10:31.

unstoppable shoo-in that Mrs Clinton has become. He is not unstoppable.

:10:32.:10:35.

Make no mistake, there are many within the party machine who would

:10:36.:10:39.

like to stop them. There could well be a very aggressive operation to

:10:40.:10:45.

stop them becoming the candidate. So far, it has not worked. There is an

:10:46.:10:49.

important point to make about Trump from a global point of view. We sit

:10:50.:10:53.

here and say, what a terrifying prospect, but remember, he will not

:10:54.:10:57.

be a democratically elected dictator if he ends up as president. Congress

:10:58.:11:01.

will have a lot of power to fetter him, even if he wants to build that

:11:02.:11:05.

wall he will have to get a vote through and that is very unlikely.

:11:06.:11:09.

He could still do a lot of damage as president, even with Congress

:11:10.:11:12.

against you. You are a powerful person. But Marco Rubio has finally

:11:13.:11:18.

got a good line of attack on him. If you had not got that $200 million

:11:19.:11:22.

from your father, you would be selling watches in Times Square. But

:11:23.:11:26.

it was only two weeks ago that he was duffed up by Chris Christie, who

:11:27.:11:31.

has now endorsed Donald Trump. And he does not like Marco Rubio.

:11:32.:11:35.

President Obama said the other day, I am absolutely convinced that the

:11:36.:11:39.

American people will not vote for Donald Trump as president. And you

:11:40.:11:43.

must assume he is right. We have learned two things about Hillary

:11:44.:11:46.

Clinton in 2008 and this time around, she will probably make an

:11:47.:11:50.

excellent president but she is a deeply flawed candidate. You assume

:11:51.:11:56.

that she should beat Trump as the nominee but we have seen some flaws

:11:57.:12:00.

in her as a candidate. And maybe he would manage to beat. This could be

:12:01.:12:05.

the last opportunity for the Republicans. There is no Democratic

:12:06.:12:13.

frontrunner since McGovern in 1972 with bigger negatives than Hillary

:12:14.:12:16.

Clinton. The White House is convinced that this would be a

:12:17.:12:20.

victory if it was Trump against Clinton. I wonder where grand and

:12:21.:12:24.

impressive reputation comes from because from an outsider's

:12:25.:12:27.

perspective, the bullet points on her CV were messing up Hillary care

:12:28.:12:36.

in 1993, which caused the Republican clean sweep in the Congress, and the

:12:37.:12:41.

second was blowing a 20 point lead over Barack Obama at the end of 2007

:12:42.:12:47.

in the primary campaign. She was an OK Secretary of State but nothing

:12:48.:12:49.

world is changing. To have the reputation she does as a very grand,

:12:50.:12:55.

conquering figure on the basis of that career seems overdone. We will

:12:56.:13:01.

leave it there. If Ted Cruz cannot win on super Tuesday, he is

:13:02.:13:09.

finished. If Trump is at all in the polls, Marco Rubio is finished. --

:13:10.:13:12.

if Trump is ahead in the polls. The Daily Politics is back

:13:13.:13:14.

on BBC2 at midday tomorrow, and we'll be back here

:13:15.:13:18.

next Sunday at 11am. Remember if it's Sunday,

:13:19.:13:20.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:21.:13:26.

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