Browse content similar to 21/02/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :00:37. | :00:39. | |
So after protracted negotiations, David Cameron has finally named | :00:40. | :00:42. | |
the day when voters will decide whether or not the United Kingdom | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
The Prime Minister said the country would be "safer, | :00:46. | :00:58. | |
stronger and better off" by staying in a reformed European Union - | :00:59. | :01:01. | |
on the terms he agreed with EU leaders in Brussels late | :01:02. | :01:03. | |
But about a quarter of the ministers who sit with Mr Cameron | :01:04. | :01:11. | |
They've said they'll campaign for the UK to leave. | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
We'll be talking to one of those wanting out, Leader of the House | :01:16. | :01:18. | |
We'll be deliberating over which way this man will swing. | :01:19. | :01:24. | |
The Mayor of London has apparently been "agonising" over his decision, | :01:25. | :01:31. | |
although apparently all the smart money's on him supporting | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
The party wants to stay in the EU, arguing it will be better for jobs, | :01:35. | :01:44. | |
We'll be joined by the Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hillary Benn. | :01:45. | :01:54. | |
And with me, three of Fleet Street's finest, who've survived | :01:55. | :01:56. | |
Nick Watt, Melanie Phillips and Tom Newton Dunn. | :01:57. | :02:03. | |
So David Cameron's done a deal and named the date. | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
Not everyone's convinced, even one of the Prime Minister's | :02:09. | :02:16. | |
best Cabinet buddies, Michael Gove, has decided to campaign | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
Both camps, those who want to stay in the EU and those who want | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
to leave have come out all guns blazing this morning. | :02:25. | :02:26. | |
Let's hear what David Cameron had to say on the Marr show | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
If we remain in a reformed EU, you know what you will get communal how | :02:30. | :02:36. | |
to do business, create jobs, continue with our economic recovery. | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
If we leave, seven years potentially of uncertainty and at the end of | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
that process you still cannot be certain that our businesses will | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
have full access to the market. So it could cost jobs, mean overseas | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
companies not investing in Britain. It would be a step into the dark, a | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
real risk of uncertainty. And that is the last thing we need in our | :02:58. | :03:00. | |
country now. Let's talk now to the BBC's | :03:01. | :03:02. | |
Political Editor, Laura Kuenssberg. The town and the language has | :03:03. | :03:09. | |
changed, it was fighting talk from Mr Cameron yesterday, all the other | :03:10. | :03:16. | |
comments were about a friendly cabinet meeting, convivial, honest, | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
now the gloves are off. It was described by Theresa Villiers, one | :03:22. | :03:24. | |
of the ministers for Out, as emotional. I think today is the | :03:25. | :03:27. | |
first time we will see those emotions spilling into the public | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
domain. As you say the Prime Minister has moved into campaigning | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
language, that fighting talk, because the stakes are so high for | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
him. He knows fine well that he's taking a huge gamble with own | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
leadership. Is taking a huge gamble with the country's membership of the | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
European Union, and she always said he might in the end argued to leave, | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
very few people who believe that come also taking a gamble with his | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
own party unity and that fighting talk we heard from him on that is | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
still in part a last-minute plea to those waverers to get on his side | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
rather than going to the other. This is something we will see play out, | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
perhaps Tom at Italy, this kind of blue on blue action. Cameron isn't | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
going to stand up and debate directly with those opposing him. He | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
will do it through another way. Another thing he said to Andrew Marr | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
today was quite strong, and a bit sharp, he suggested that those come | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
including perhaps Boris Johnson, want to campaign for Out, were | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
linking arms with George Galloway and Nigel Farage. For most people in | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
the Conservative Party, hardly a compliment. What about the waverers, | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
Boris Johnson for example, he wasn't able to be swayed with Michael Gove, | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
George Osborne, a close friend, and that will have been a big blow, how | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
big a blow will it be Boris Johnson campaigns for Out? One thing about | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
this, some people wonder why the media seem obsessed with one | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
politician. The reason is this. It is not often that politicians have | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
single name recognition. It's not often as, if we do from time to time | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
you go out campaigning in action with politicians, if it is Boris | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
Johnson people come out of their houses and their businesses and | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
shops, to see him and talk to him. They want to have pictures taken | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
with him. He's a rare politician, the kind who can actually add a real | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
fizz to a campaign and cut through to the public. Some people love him, | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
some despise. But the point is, his addition to the Out campaign, if | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
that's the way he goes which is what we expect, it would change the | :05:40. | :05:42. | |
dynamics of the campaign. Particularly for the Out side, who | :05:43. | :05:48. | |
have not landed on one obvious leader, it would be a significant | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
boost for them, real shot in the arm. We are finally going to cure | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
from Boris Johnson at 10pm this evening. He will lay out his | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
arguments in his regular Telegraph column. The surprise would be if he | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
decided to stay in. But of course you never know with him, he is | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
unpredictable, and instinctively many who know him well say that at | :06:12. | :06:17. | |
heart he is a YouGov file, not naturally a sceptic. Theatrical to | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
the end! Briefly, how will it play out between Cabinet ministers on | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
either side? Will they really be able to hold it together over the | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
weeks of campaigning? One extraordinary thing about this is | :06:31. | :06:37. | |
that they have an officially divided Cabinet, and the normal way of | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
politics working is that they have to stick together come hell or high | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
water. I think most people will do their best to be polite but | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
friendships and loyalties will be tested. Clearly what it means is | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
that there won't be much going on here apart from this. The focus will | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
be Europe. The Challenger David Cameron, whatever the result, is | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
whether he can keep the party together after the vote. Thank you. | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
So after a near sleepless night on Friday, European leaders | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
were meant to agree a deal over a civilised English breakfast. | :07:10. | :07:11. | |
They didn't bother with afternoon tea. | :07:12. | :07:21. | |
In the end they came up trumps over dinner. | :07:22. | :07:23. | |
History starts with a lot of waiting around, as I discovered on Friday. | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
Waiting for news from the EU summit, Westminster had ground to a halt. | :07:30. | :07:35. | |
Over there, European leaders were on their second | :07:36. | :07:43. | |
The French president was worried about the city of London getting | :07:44. | :07:53. | |
a special deal, the Polish Prime Minister feared her citizens living | :07:54. | :07:55. | |
in the UK would lose their benefits, and the Greek PM was | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
David Cameron said he was battling for a better deal for Britain, | :07:59. | :08:06. | |
which involved lots of talk, quite a few croissants, | :08:07. | :08:08. | |
Suddenly, back at Westminster, a thing happened. | :08:09. | :08:19. | |
One of the Leave campaigns, Grassroots Out, held a rally | :08:20. | :08:22. | |
where it was rumoured they would reveal a surprise supporter. | :08:23. | :08:24. | |
Who would be your dream Eurosceptic special guest? | :08:25. | :08:27. | |
Sorry, it was actually George Galloway. | :08:28. | :08:37. | |
When he turned up, a bunch of people left. | :08:38. | :08:44. | |
They were people who were waiting for Nigel and had | :08:45. | :09:02. | |
The only thing more exciting was happening back in Brussels, | :09:03. | :09:12. | |
where finally, a deal designed to keep Britain in the EU | :09:13. | :09:14. | |
The hacks were briefed by a clearly knackered Prime Minister. | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
Within the last hour, I have negotiated a deal to give | :09:21. | :09:28. | |
the United Kingdom special status inside the European Union. | :09:29. | :09:31. | |
In the midst of it all, Angela Merkel was snapped | :09:32. | :09:34. | |
That is what I call a working dinner. | :09:35. | :09:44. | |
Now, it's Saturday morning in Downing Street. | :09:45. | :09:53. | |
More waiting, this time for the first Cabinet meeting | :09:54. | :09:55. | |
on a weekend since the Falklands, and David Cameron's chance | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
This is the deal and here is what it amounts to. | :10:00. | :10:11. | |
for the City of London, when it comes to in-work benefits, | :10:12. | :10:13. | |
the UK will be able to apply the emergency brake, | :10:14. | :10:28. | |
they would get in their home country. | :10:29. | :10:30. | |
Time for ministers to give their verdict. | :10:31. | :10:32. | |
Home Secretary, are you a remain-ian? | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
Chancellor, I am guessing you are an inner, aren't you? | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
Each gave their answer during a two hour meeting in Number 10. | :10:43. | :10:50. | |
Then the PM appeared to press the button marked "Referendum". | :10:51. | :10:52. | |
The choice is in your hands, but my recommendation is clear. | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
I believe that Britain will be safer, stronger and better off | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
And apparently it is now totally fine for members of the Cabinet | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
What was it like when Michael Gove spoke, was he a bit sad? | :11:07. | :11:14. | |
Of course, because he and the Prime Minister, he and the rest of us, | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
One of the interesting and remarkable things about this | :11:18. | :11:27. | |
government is we all know each other and we like each other, | :11:28. | :11:29. | |
We have each other's mobile phones and we text and talk to each other. | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
Please join me in welcoming Vote Leave's... | :11:35. | :11:35. | |
But the six ministerial Tory outers headed straight to the HQ | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
It is Iain Duncan Smith, I am a member of the Cabinet. | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
I will be voting to leave the EU because I am profoundly | :11:45. | :11:54. | |
optimistic about the UK, I believe we can flourish | :11:55. | :11:57. | |
outside the European Union, so I think the better option | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
is to take back control, and restore the ability | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
to make our own laws and control our own | :12:05. | :12:06. | |
Happy, happy, here we go, big smiles. | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
Now the referendum campaign will be brought to a street near you, | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
like the Britain Stronger In Europe team did in rainy Bath this weekend. | :12:15. | :12:17. | |
There is one more thing we are waiting for, which side | :12:18. | :12:20. | |
The Mayor of London will reveal his intentions tonight. | :12:21. | :12:30. | |
Exciting. Let's pick up on that. Tom Newton Dunn, will he campaign to | :12:31. | :12:37. | |
come out? It looks very much like it. People close to him this morning | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
that I've spoken to, some pro-European MPs who hoped he would | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
go their way, have now resigned themselves to Boris going from Vote | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
Leave. Apparently it was down to this big dinner he had with Michael | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
Gove on Tuesday night as revealed by the Mail on Sunday today. Horace was | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
really given an argument he found hard to refuse. It would certainly | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
appear that they have done a deal to do this together. Is it not more | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
about leadership ambitions than about his true feelings to do with | :13:07. | :13:13. | |
the EU? Everyone will presume that now is not simply because Boris | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
Johnson is known for being inside Europe, he is an internationalist, | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
born in New York, he's lived in Brussels, he has always been in | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
favour of reform but not leaving. He was telling people openly one month | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
ago that he would campaign to stay in. He has clearly worked out that | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
the electorate that matters for him other grassroots Tories and the MPs | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
who ask up to Cork and who will therefore hopefully propel him | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
towards being Prime Minister. The thought he will have is, does he | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
look sincere in doing this? He will have to have a very good argument | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
tonight to make it look why he has done this apparent turnaround. Let's | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
look at some of the substance, Melanie Phillips. Some will say that | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
not many people in the public will look at the details, they will do it | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
on gut instinct and emotion. Do you think that is true, or are there | :14:08. | :14:13. | |
salient issues that could capture the imagination? I think the two are | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
not necessarily in contradiction of each other, gut instinct and | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
emotional part of it and fear will have a lot to do with this campaign. | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
The fear, we must cling on for fear of something worse which is what the | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
Prime Minister has played on and will continue to do so | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
significantly. I was struck by the interview with the Prime Minister | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
this morning in which he addressed the most important issue, | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
sovereignty. And he redefined it. He was so keen to slip away from it | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
because it is so dangerous him. The odd comment is that Britain will | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
still have no control over its own stash might be argued is that | :14:52. | :14:54. | |
Britain will still have no control over its own laws, they will be | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
dictated in significant measure. Users they are looking at a | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
mechanism... He is clinging to his apparent concession that he has run | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
from them not to sign up to ever closer union. That is a meaningless | :15:10. | :15:12. | |
thing. The thing is that we in Britain will continue to be bad but | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
the judgments of the European Court of Justice. Although the Prime | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
Minister is floated some kind of constitutional settlement, this is a | :15:21. | :15:23. | |
nonsense because nothing can override that superiority. While we | :15:24. | :15:26. | |
continue to be signed at the EU. Opponents are vexed that we appear | :15:27. | :15:37. | |
not to have the ability to make her own laws, but we do not seem to be | :15:38. | :15:40. | |
vexed whether we have the ability to decide whether to go to war not. You | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
could have a situation in the next few months where Turkey and Syria, | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
sorry, Russia and Turkey could find themselves at war. What happens | :15:52. | :16:00. | |
then? We are bound to go to war on Turkey's behalf, the cause Turkey is | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
a member of Nato. Opponents of the European Union do not seem to be too | :16:04. | :16:06. | |
vexed about that. Do you think security will be the overriding | :16:07. | :16:09. | |
thing that will convince people? It is simple who is clicked to win this | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
campaign. The winners will be the safest option and the losers will be | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
the riskiest option. That is why the Prime Minister is talking about risk | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
and uncertainty. He's saying what can you, the outers, what is your | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
vision for what Britain would be like outside the European Union. We | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
will hear more from you later in the programme. | :16:33. | :16:34. | |
Well, as we've been hearing, as soon as David Cameron announced | :16:35. | :16:37. | |
the date of the referendum, members of the Cabinet were given | :16:38. | :16:39. | |
free rein to campaign on either side of the argument. | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
So who'll be campaigning to stay in and who'll be | :16:43. | :16:44. | |
It is time for ministers to pick a side. | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
No surprises that David Cameron, George Osborne and Philip Hammond | :16:50. | :16:51. | |
And they will be pleased that potential outers Theresa May, | :16:52. | :17:00. | |
Liz Truss and Sajid Javid have also all opted for the remain team. | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
Chris Grayling, Priti Patel, John Whittingdale, Theresa Villiers | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
and Iain Duncan Smith will be campaigning to leave. | :17:10. | :17:12. | |
They will be cheered that Michael Gove, after much | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
soul-searching, has also plumped for the leave campaign. | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
However, there is one big name waiting on the sidelines. | :17:21. | :17:27. | |
Pollsters claim his support could sway a lot of voters. | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
Surely it cannot be long to wait now. | :17:32. | :17:33. | |
And the Leader of the House of Commons, Chris Grayling, | :17:34. | :17:35. | |
Welcome. Hello. Why do you not think the deal that the Prime Minister | :17:36. | :17:43. | |
secured was enough? The Prime Minister has made some progress in | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
his discussions in Brussels, and we give him credit for that, but does | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
this represent a transformation that says to me, we should stay within | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
the European Union? It does not. Our membership of the European Union | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
holds us back. There are decisions that we should be taking for the | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
benefit of her country that we cannot take when wearing the EU, | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
like how many people, and live and work your, like forming free-trade | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
deals around the world, and we are spending millions of pounds a week | :18:16. | :18:18. | |
in subscriptions to the EU that should be spent on the National | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
Health Service are bringing their beds. Some of that does not take | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
into account the rebate that the UK gets. In your mind, the prime and it | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
has failed in his ambition to secure fundamental reform? The Prime | :18:32. | :18:34. | |
Minister has worked hard at this. He has failed, in your mind? What he | :18:35. | :18:37. | |
has brought back is a deal that he and others believe it is | :18:38. | :18:56. | |
sufficient for us to stay in the European Union. I do not think that, | :18:57. | :18:59. | |
I think we should leave. That is the essence of the debate. What did they | :19:00. | :19:01. | |
have secured to get your support? You're talking about risk. All the | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
National statisticians are saying that our population is on the way to | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
rising from 75 to 80 million people. I do not think we can cope with | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
that. We do not have the houses, the school places, the hospitals. Your | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
government has failed to do anything about net migration figures? Letting | :19:21. | :19:23. | |
that happen is a huge risk. We cannot do anything about it because | :19:24. | :19:30. | |
of the free movement you -- rules in the European Union. If we did not | :19:31. | :19:33. | |
have free movement, what level of movement would be acceptable? We | :19:34. | :19:36. | |
should bring it down to the tens of thousands. If the UK pulled out of | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
the EU, you would get the level down to the tens of thousands? We would | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
have the ability to set limits. We would look at the reality of the | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
migration pressures we face. We could take decisions in the | :19:52. | :19:54. | |
interests of Britain. At the moment we cannot do that. So there is not | :19:55. | :19:59. | |
anything that David Cameron could have secured to get your support, | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
because you always wanted to come out of the EU? I believed for a long | :20:04. | :20:05. | |
time it was likely I would decide to come out of the EU. I have | :20:06. | :20:24. | |
sat through European meetings for five years. We are not able to look | :20:25. | :20:26. | |
after our national interest properly, our citizens are business | :20:27. | :20:28. | |
interests. Too many decisions have been passed to Brussels. Michael | :20:29. | :20:30. | |
Gove spoke yesterday about the decisions that cross the desks of | :20:31. | :20:32. | |
ministers. Give me one example of something that has come across your | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
desk that you could not in act because of the EU? When I was | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
Minister for health and safety, there were changes being brought in | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
that would cost British business money. Which ones to G1 to bring -- | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
want to not bring in. You always talk about regulations. Which | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
specific bills were you not able to pass, which laws were foisted on you | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
by the EU? I would not have imposed massive change to the North Sea oil | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
industry, which is the best safety record in the world. It took three | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
years of intense negotiations to reduce a package which would have | :21:09. | :21:11. | |
been damaging to one that simply cost extra money for the industry. | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
You want to strip away health and safety regulations? We have the best | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
resume in the world. Across the board you would like to get rid of | :21:21. | :21:31. | |
health and safety regulations that are brought in as a result of not | :21:32. | :21:34. | |
just our government but the EU? I want us as a nation to decide what | :21:35. | :21:37. | |
health and safety rules we get in the UK, not have been imposed. I | :21:38. | :21:39. | |
want the right regulation. I want proper safety in the workplace but | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
not massive burdens put on business. What was the atmosphere like in | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
Cabinet yesterday. It was cordial. It was constructive and friendly. | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
The Prime Minister accepted we had different views around the table. We | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
are all committed to working in the next few months for the cause we | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
believe in. We will do it in a constructive and friendly way. You | :22:00. | :22:07. | |
will not be able to do that. We do not have to attack each other | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
personally insult each other. It is already happening. You have said the | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
Prime Minister is your mongering, it will be project fear. | :22:16. | :22:18. | |
Prime Minister is your mongering, it friendly? I have not said the prime | :22:19. | :22:20. | |
and is to is scaremongering. friendly? I have not said the prime | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
have implied it will friendly? I have not said the prime | :22:25. | :22:33. | |
airlines thing, we have cheap airfares all around the world. There | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
are airports in continental Europe that would go bust if it was not for | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
low-cost aviation from United Kingdom. You can guarantee that to | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
the British people, can you? All these things will be there the day | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
after Britain votes to leave the EU? Why would people in continental | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
Europe cost themselves money? You cannot guarantee it? Aske yourself | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
the question. Do you think the day after Britain leaves the | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
the question. Do you think the day no longer sell BMWs to the British? | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
the question. Do you think the day It will not happen. There will be a | :23:13. | :23:14. | |
trade deal. Countries will want to trade with the UK. The issue is, | :23:15. | :23:17. | |
will it be the same trade with the UK. The issue is, | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
be full access for the UK to the same markets? For goods and | :23:22. | :23:27. | |
services? Are you saying this will be a utopia where the same deal will | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
be struck, we will not have to be part of freedom of movement rules, | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
and we will not have to pay a penny towards the EU? We are the most | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
important customer of the European Union. Can you guarantee that we | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
will have full access to trade and services in the way that exist now, | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
without freedom of movement and without paying into a EU fund? Aske | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
the question the other way around, why would they take a risk with jobs | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
in Germany, France and other European countries, by not agreeing | :23:59. | :24:07. | |
a proper modern free-trade agreement in goods and services? They run a | :24:08. | :24:10. | |
massive trade surplus with us. They sell more to us than we sell to | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
them. They lose out financially of those arrangements do not continue. | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
I am not seeing the arrangements would not continue, they would | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
continue. I am talking about the Thames. Everyone says we do not know | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
what out would look like. I am trying to see how long it would | :24:26. | :24:31. | |
take, would it look like Canada, and would it be on the same terms we | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
have no? Why would it not be on a free-trade basis? It costs them | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
money if it is not. It is not ours who loses money, it is Germany and | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
France and other European countries. That is why there would be a | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
free-trade agreement that would allow all businesses to trade. How | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
long would that take? A relatively short period of time in my view, | :24:53. | :24:58. | |
because they lose financially. If it took Canada seven years, how long | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
would it take the UK? There is a process of negotiation set out in | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
the treaty that is estimated to take two years. I would not expect those | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
countries to take a risk. They would lose out financially, not us. Even | :25:13. | :25:15. | |
over the negotiations, President Hollington said that he will not | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
give special treatment to Great Britain. Why would these countries | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
who have been pulled through the ringer over these negotiations | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
suddenly want to immediately, on your timescale, set up favourable | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
terms of trade with the UK? Does anybody seriously think that | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
President Hollande will say to the French farmers, who we know are | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
fairly lively bunch when they want to be, you will no longer have | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
free-trade agreements to sell your wine, cheese and other agricultural | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
products to British supermarkets? Why would you take that political | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
risk? We do not know the terms, that you admit. We know what you would | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
like. We know you're saying you cannot believe there would be | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
another option, but it is a risk. The Prime Minister is right? It is a | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
risk for the French not to have an agreement with us. Otherwise their | :26:08. | :26:09. | |
businesses lose out. Sajid Javid does not agree with you and use the | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
Business Secretary. Is he wrong when he says, my head says it is too | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
risky for business? I think the risk is on the other side. Inside you jab | :26:20. | :26:26. | |
the drum? I have a different view. -- is Sajid Javid. Continental | :26:27. | :26:32. | |
Europe are the ones who would lose if we do not have a free-trade | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
agreement with them. He is the Business Secretary. What do you know | :26:38. | :26:40. | |
that he does not? We have different views around the Cabinet table. We | :26:41. | :26:46. | |
set them out yesterday. Some of us are in Yahn Sommer out. We will have | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
that debate over the next few months. The Business Secretary is | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
very good at his job. He is also clear in his article that he is | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
deeply unhappy about the European Union. But he is being loyal to the | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
Prime Minister. We are taking different views. We are both loyal | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
to the Prime Minister. Not on this issue. The Prime Minister has been | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
clear that government ministers are free to take different sides. It is | :27:14. | :27:22. | |
a bold decision, the right decision. If you lose the argument, are you | :27:23. | :27:25. | |
worried about your job? I think that is relevant. While? It will only | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
happen on June 23rd? Wanted easily see a situation where David Cameron | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
feels strongly about this. He will say to you and your colleagues or | :27:33. | :27:38. | |
canning for out, that is it, it is over? David Cameron will do what he | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
believes is right. This is a matter of principle for me. It is not about | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
my career, my job. I am doing what I believe is the right thing for the | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
country. What happens to me is neither here nor there. I believe it | :27:54. | :27:56. | |
is the right thing for the country and I also believe it is the | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
low-risk option. Is it right for a Conservative majority government, | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
for the first time in many years, fighting and divided over this | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
issue? People expect mature democracy, the expect is as | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
politicians to debate and discuss. They do not expect us to agree all | :28:14. | :28:20. | |
the time, we are not robots. We will have a constructive debate but we | :28:21. | :28:23. | |
will stay friends, we will stay respectful of the Prime Minister, | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
and work to make sure that we carry on gather -- governing the country | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
well. If you win, does the Prime Minister have to go? Absolutely not. | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
So you trust him to renegotiate bilateral trade agreements with the | :28:40. | :28:42. | |
EU as the Prime Minister the campaign to stay in the EU? I trust | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
him as the Prime Minister that was bold enough to give the country the | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
choice. If the country decides to stay, he will lead us in government | :28:51. | :28:58. | |
in 2020. He would really be your favourite person to lead these | :28:59. | :29:01. | |
negotiations? You would still trust and? I would still trust them. In | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
terms of your colleagues, do you think it would be possible for him | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
to stay either way? Absolutely. The last thing we need at the end of all | :29:10. | :29:16. | |
this, regardless of the result, is a political bloodbath. We have a good | :29:17. | :29:20. | |
team and the team needs to carry on. How big boost would Boris Johnson be | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
to your campaign? It would be great if he | :29:25. | :29:31. | |
to your campaign? It would be great more than anybody else, but | :29:32. | :29:32. | |
to your campaign? It would be great you will join. If you lose, will | :29:33. | :29:33. | |
this issue be settled? you will join. If you lose, will | :29:34. | :29:35. | |
will have decided, so we will not be you will join. If you lose, will | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
able to return. We will not be urging for another referendum. Is | :29:40. | :29:42. | |
that it for a generation? The people On this momentous weekend, | :29:43. | :29:58. | |
what does the EU referendum How would we be affected | :29:59. | :30:00. | |
if the UK left and what are And Carwyn Jones says he wants five | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
more years to start the work he begun, but has he done enough | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
to inspire his party at their last conference before | :30:09. | :30:11. | |
the Assembly election? In just four months' time, | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
we'll get the the chance to do | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
something that hasn't been on offer for more than 40 years - to decide | :30:20. | :30:21. | |
whether we want to leave or remain The campaign seems to have been | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
going on for months, But how does being a member | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
of the EU affect us here in Wales? The EU is often called the biggest | :30:29. | :30:36. | |
trading block in the world - So what better place | :30:37. | :30:39. | |
to discuss it than the biggest indoor market in Wales | :30:40. | :30:47. | |
with the people who sell here? The vast majority of meat from Wales | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
is exported to the EU and according to the Welsh government, | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
the red meat market alone is worth at least | :30:57. | :30:58. | |
?175 million a year. If the UK left the EU, | :30:59. | :31:04. | |
that market would still be there but what isn't | :31:05. | :31:06. | |
clear is what exactly This butchers is run by a married | :31:07. | :31:08. | |
couple with very different views But he does have to make | :31:09. | :31:15. | |
the changes and if he doesn't stand his ground, | :31:16. | :31:24. | |
we are done for. The way I look at it, | :31:25. | :31:31. | |
they want our stuff and we want their stuff so we go back | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
to where we were before. Farmers get their share of around | :31:38. | :31:40. | |
?200 million of European Union The average dairy farmer gets | :31:41. | :31:43. | |
?22,000 of grants with the average sheep farmer getting | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
around ?19,000 a year. One gripe we have | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
heard today is about immigration because any EU citizen | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
can come and live in Wales. When we look at | :31:59. | :32:01. | |
immigration, it is worth bearing in mind that Wales | :32:02. | :32:03. | |
is the part of the UK with the lowest proportion | :32:04. | :32:05. | |
of people born abroad. But people do come here to live | :32:06. | :32:07. | |
and the two countries at the top of the list are both | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
from within the EU. Parts of Wales, like Swansea, | :32:12. | :32:13. | |
also benefit from EU It was worth almost | :32:14. | :32:16. | |
?2 billion between 2014 and 2020, helping | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
to create thousands of jobs. Opponents say it is not | :32:22. | :32:27. | |
European money, it is our money and if we didn't have to send | :32:28. | :32:30. | |
funds to the EU every year, it could come from | :32:31. | :32:33. | |
the UK Government. Supporters of the EU say there is no | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
guarantee that the UK Government would keep giving so | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
much money to Wales. If they leave, I suppose it | :32:41. | :32:51. | |
would just tell every other sort of major player like | :32:52. | :32:54. | |
Germany and stuff like that to just cause them | :32:55. | :32:56. | |
to leave and if they all leave, it might bring instability | :32:57. | :33:04. | |
to the economic front. The EU regulates how much fishing | :33:05. | :33:06. | |
there is off the coast of Wales, Here they say it could | :33:07. | :33:09. | |
damage the industry. Everybody put sanctions on them | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
apart from us and our waters We should be allowed | :33:14. | :33:15. | |
to do that ourselves. Opponents say if they left the EU, | :33:16. | :33:18. | |
there would be much more freedom to trade with emerging | :33:19. | :33:21. | |
export markets like India and China, rather | :33:22. | :33:23. | |
than having to go through Brussels. So it is clear the | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
debate is heating up but until there is agreement | :33:28. | :33:29. | |
in Brussels and a date for the vote, I am joined by people from either | :33:30. | :33:32. | |
side of the argument. Joining me now are two women | :33:33. | :34:00. | |
from either side of the argument - the chief executive of Leave EU, | :34:01. | :34:03. | |
Liz Bilney, and the Lib Dem AM Eluned Parrott, who's | :34:04. | :34:06. | |
with Britain Stronger in Europe. We would be able to negotiate our | :34:07. | :34:12. | |
own trade agreements and re-establish our links with the | :34:13. | :34:16. | |
Commonwealth. We could put in place appropriate policies such as | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
migration. We could look to an Australian style system which we all | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
agree is fair. We could welcome people from all over the world. | :34:25. | :34:30. | |
Why would the UK be better to remain in the EU? | :34:31. | :34:33. | |
It is nonsense to suggest it prevents us from trading with the | :34:34. | :34:36. | |
rest of the world. 50 or 60% of our trade is with the rest of the world. | :34:37. | :34:42. | |
The most compelling reason for me is the European Union has given us 60 | :34:43. | :34:45. | |
years of peace in a continent that has known 2000 years of | :34:46. | :34:51. | |
uninterrupted war. I am not going to gamble with the futures of my | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
children. I am going to vote with my heart to stay in and keep talking to | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
our neighbours and friends. The point about peace. If the UK | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
decided to leave the EU, it would still be there. That element of | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
peaceful cooperation on mainland continental Europe would still be | :35:12. | :35:13. | |
there? It would be there but we wouldn't be | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
a part of it and I think we would be weaker if we weren't a part of that | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
union. We helped create a system whereby we talk to our neighbours to | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
help prevent what happened in the first and second world Wars, where | :35:26. | :35:34. | |
this multilateral military only agreement centres into the First | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
World War because we toppled into those situations. | :35:39. | :35:41. | |
Would you like to come in there? I would suggest we are a member of the | :35:42. | :35:44. | |
wrong club because we are a member of Nato and the UN Security Council. | :35:45. | :35:57. | |
We also have seats in the 20. -- G20. We don't need to be part of the | :35:58. | :36:03. | |
EU if security is our main concern. David Cameron was speaking to the | :36:04. | :36:11. | |
BBC this morning, saying that the UK likes to be part of these | :36:12. | :36:14. | |
organisations. Why not be part of this huge single market, the biggest | :36:15. | :36:20. | |
in the world? Why not be in there, able to influence things. | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
The EU cost us ?350 million a week and doesn't give us any benefits in | :36:26. | :36:31. | |
return. When you look at trade, we are part of the World Trade | :36:32. | :36:34. | |
Organisation so we have the right number shipped in different clubs. | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
Why are we paying all this money? -- membership in different clubs. | :36:39. | :36:47. | |
If the UK leaves, what would the nature of the trading relationship | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
between the UK and the rest of the EU be? | :36:52. | :36:57. | |
We buy more from the EU than we sell. When we look at the deficit | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
figures, ?80 billion of deficit sat there and 50 million -- 50 billion | :37:02. | :37:07. | |
is with the EU. In the event of the UK leaving... | :37:08. | :37:13. | |
Trade won't change. We were going into the supermarket and buy... | :37:14. | :37:16. | |
You can guarantee that? People will still want to purchase French wine | :37:17. | :37:24. | |
and hoovers... Because of that, there will be no impact on jobs. | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
You don't know that. We will want to buy the same products. We want to | :37:29. | :37:35. | |
sell the same services. You would come to an agreement and when you | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
have a seat on the World Trade Organisation, you will come to that. | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
It doesn't sound cast-iron. Canada is a country trying to have its own | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
free-trade agreement with the EU at the moment and has taken seven | :37:50. | :37:51. | |
years. And I said, a country of fewer | :37:52. | :37:58. | |
people, negotiated a trade agreement with China. Are you suggesting we | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
are not capable? That was the argument from Nigel | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
Farage this morning. There is a difference. Iceland is a small | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
country and the UK is the fifth largest economy in the world, | :38:11. | :38:13. | |
trading with all of these countries in the EU. China is one country. How | :38:14. | :38:20. | |
can you guarantee we have a similar trade nature with the EU? | :38:21. | :38:25. | |
Because we buy more from the EU than we sell so when we come to the table | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
and they want to carry on that trading relationship, the cards are | :38:30. | :38:31. | |
in our hands. It gives us the freedom to have a | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
better deal for us? How can you argue with that? Is a | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
fairy tale. How is it logical to say it is logical to be part of some | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
clubs but not other clubs? There is no logical basis for that. When you | :38:46. | :38:48. | |
think about the trade relationship with Europe, yes we will trade with | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
them but there may well be terrorists in place and costs. We | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
will not trade at the same price with the same ease. If there is no | :38:58. | :39:00. | |
difference, why do you want to leave? What is the difference? There | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
will be change and risk and difference and independent estimates | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
reckon that UK consumers will pay ?3000 a year more for services and | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
goods that we buy from the EU, such as flights, roaming charges on | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
mobile tariffs and all those kind of things that have been lowered as a | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
result of our membership of the EU. If you are looking for a new | :39:25. | :39:27. | |
relationship, let's look at the relationships that exist for | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
countries in Europe but not the EU like Norway or Switzerland. Are you | :39:33. | :39:36. | |
basing your argument on a model they follow? | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
I think we are more complex than that. You can take elements of what | :39:41. | :39:45. | |
different countries have put I think it is a very simplistic way of | :39:46. | :39:47. | |
looking at the world to say, let's take the Norway option. You can take | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
elements of different countries and come up with a structure that | :39:52. | :39:57. | |
reflects our make-up that makes us different and that is why we have to | :39:58. | :40:00. | |
be out. Can you not described to me the | :40:01. | :40:03. | |
model of the new relationship you want to broker? You want to broker a | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
relationship with Europe but you can't tell me what that looks like? | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
You want the voters of this country to throw away what they have for an | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
unknown and uncertain future? It is risky for our children. I want my | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
children to grow up in a world where they have jobs to go to... | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
I would suggest that staying in the EU is the unknown. We have seen it | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
evolved from what it was in 1975 to what it is today. We joined the | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
Common market and now it is the EU. It will progress and we are seeing | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
the decline of the euro so in a couple of years it could even | :40:42. | :40:46. | |
collapse itself. I would suggest it is better to build outside the EU, | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
make friends with the Commonwealth, the guys we left behind, and | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
negotiate our own trade agreements. We will prosper. We find the | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
prospect of leaving exciting. Eluned Parrott, you said the average | :41:01. | :41:07. | |
consumer would be ?3000 worse off out of the EU, why is that? | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
There are savings to be had by the fact there are no import charges and | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
tariffs and for example... But you don't know what they would | :41:17. | :41:18. | |
be. We have calculated it the other way | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
round we think it would be ?3000 better off by coming out. | :41:24. | :41:29. | |
We will come back to you. The kind of things that are cheaper | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
as a result of the EU for consumers are food because we have a system | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
that supports farming. It gives this food security. It is likely to be | :41:39. | :41:44. | |
more expensive as a result. There are flights within Europe because of | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
agreements within the airline industry and the European Union. | :41:50. | :41:52. | |
Roaming charges for mobile phones and making sure there is access to | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
mobile networks overseas. There are things with the average cost if we | :41:58. | :42:05. | |
leave the UK is around ?3000 a year, it is estimated. | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
You say ?3000 a year better off. Why is that? Let's say that if we | :42:10. | :42:14. | |
are not in the EU, we will be saving ?55 million per day. | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
That doesn't take into the account the fact there is a UK rebate that | :42:19. | :42:24. | |
comes in so it is closer to ?45 million a day. | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
It is still a lot of money. It could still help towards schools, | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
hospitals and it could make this country great. It is a huge cost | :42:34. | :42:36. | |
saving for our economy. But not for farmers in Wales. 15,000 | :42:37. | :42:44. | |
farmers in Wales get around ?20,000 a year in EU subsidies. They will | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
lose that, won't be as Mac only if the government chooses not to give | :42:49. | :42:51. | |
it back. It is uncertain. It is a different | :42:52. | :42:55. | |
issue, saying you don't trust the fact the government would give us | :42:56. | :42:58. | |
the rebate back. It is not trust, it is a lack of | :42:59. | :43:01. | |
certainty. You are gambling it is better to | :43:02. | :43:08. | |
have a bird in the hand. We know we can sort ourselves out and be better | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
by being out. There will be cost savings by coming out. Jobs will not | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
be affected. There are a lot of mist on the inside campaign but we are | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
here to present the facts and we know that once people see the | :43:23. | :43:25. | |
information, they will vote to come out of the EU. | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
This is the first of many debates to come. Thank you both for coming in. | :43:30. | :43:32. | |
In the middle of the huge story of an EU referendum, | :43:33. | :43:35. | |
spare a thought for Welsh Labour, trying to set out their stall | :43:36. | :43:38. | |
The Party has led the government in Wales since we've | :43:39. | :43:41. | |
It's fair to say it's been a mixed bag as far as services go - | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
ministers admit to having taken their eye off the ball | :43:47. | :43:48. | |
Well, our political editor Nick Servini has been at the party's | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
annual conference in Llandudno and spoke to the leader, | :43:53. | :43:54. | |
He began by asking him what he made of the European deal. | :43:55. | :44:05. | |
I can live with what has been proposed. I think the important | :44:06. | :44:08. | |
thing is the principle that Wales should be part of the UK and the EU, | :44:09. | :44:14. | |
to get access to the big single market that sustains so many jobs in | :44:15. | :44:20. | |
Wales. And yet, and also Jeremy Corbyn again, today, a kind of | :44:21. | :44:27. | |
mealy-mouthed acceptance. It could be tight. A bit of old-fashioned, | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
tribal party politics is perhaps not is what is required if you want the | :44:32. | :44:38. | |
UK to remain. The problem is the referendum in May and then the vote | :44:39. | :44:44. | |
in June makes it hard to differentiate. The European campaign | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
is different to the election campaign. Those that want Wales to | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
remain part of the EU, we have an election on the 5th of May and the | :44:53. | :44:55. | |
parties will be on their knees in terms of energy levels and they will | :44:56. | :45:04. | |
have to campaign. There is a logistical difficulty. Senior Labour | :45:05. | :45:08. | |
figures spoke to me, saying you should have a pact with the other | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
parties whereby you don't talk about the EU because it gets in the way of | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
the assembly campaign. Is this unrealistic? I won't be talking | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
about the EU as a central part. We will be talking about health, | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
education, the economy. We shouldn't conflate the EU referendum with the | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
assembly election campaign. You know, let's be realistic. They are | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
going to run into each other at different stages. Let's talk about | :45:36. | :45:41. | |
your speech and the assembly campaign. Interesting, I thought, it | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
was very personal at times. You had your wife as the warm up act. She | :45:46. | :45:52. | |
volunteered, bless her! There was definitely a personal element. I | :45:53. | :45:58. | |
wonder, particularly in terms of the content, you talked about it being a | :45:59. | :46:04. | |
fight between who you want as a First Minister - yourself or Andrew | :46:05. | :46:08. | |
RT Davies. I get the sense this is going to be a presidential style | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
campaign. Is that what you want? First of all, we stand on what we | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
have done and what we are going to do. We kept the promises we made in | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
2011 and we are telling the people of Wales we will make our promises | :46:21. | :46:26. | |
in 2016. In the age we live in, of course people look at party leaders | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
and they will judge them according to whether they think they are up to | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
the job that they are aspiring to get. Yes, there is an element of | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
people looking at party leaders. They want to see them as people who | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
look the part as First Minister. It is inevitable. You also have the | :46:45. | :46:50. | |
policies. In terms of the policies, what are you going to do about | :46:51. | :46:53. | |
hospital waiting list if you are in power? See them come down even more. | :46:54. | :47:01. | |
We see bed blocking come down and cancer figures doing better than | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
England. There are areas where we want to see improvement. Most | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
hospital waiting lists are longer in Wales than England. Some are and | :47:11. | :47:16. | |
some aren't. The OECD gave us a report last Friday that showed us | :47:17. | :47:19. | |
there was no difference between the English and Welsh NHS. It didn't | :47:20. | :47:25. | |
look at waiting times. It looked at what was being delivered. We have | :47:26. | :47:30. | |
heard the Tories say the Welsh NHS is worse than the English NHS. It | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
isn't. We have no junior doctors strike. We don't want that chaos. It | :47:36. | :47:44. | |
is worse on waiting times. There is work to do. Not an cancer. Not | :47:45. | :47:51. | |
cancer but most of them. You are right to say we want improvements to | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
continue. We have seen ambulance waiting times improved and we want | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
the same on waiting times. What are you going to do? It hasn't worked so | :48:00. | :48:05. | |
far. It is making sure we put resources into the NHS. The NHS is | :48:06. | :48:11. | |
not far off half of our budget. Demand goes up and the challenge -as | :48:12. | :48:13. | |
it will be in the rest Demand goes up and the challenge -as | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
meet the demand. You covered Demand goes up and the challenge -as | :48:18. | :48:24. | |
of the M4 relief road. It is the only biggest construction project | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
since the start of devolution. Are you going cool on it? There has to | :48:30. | :48:35. | |
be a relief road. Why didn't you mention it? There are several things | :48:36. | :48:42. | |
we didn't mention. We have a manifesto. It will be in the | :48:43. | :48:50. | |
manifesto? Yes. You talked about taking flak for difficult decisions. | :48:51. | :48:51. | |
I want to take you back to a taking flak for difficult decisions. | :48:52. | :48:56. | |
he made to the NHS Confederation a couple of weeks ago. You said, it is | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
impossible to spend more on the NHS and an council 's and anyone who | :49:03. | :49:03. | |
says otherwise risks taking the and an council 's and anyone who | :49:04. | :49:10. | |
Welsh public for fools. So are you prepared to take the flak here, that | :49:11. | :49:18. | |
the new administration and you, the priority will be the NHS and | :49:19. | :49:22. | |
will be less money for cancelled? That was aimed at other parties, | :49:23. | :49:27. | |
particularly the Tories. I am told to put | :49:28. | :49:33. | |
particularly the Tories. I am told defences. You can't do it all. It | :49:34. | :49:35. | |
was aimed at defences. You can't do it all. It | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
there is a magic money tree somewhere and difficult decisions | :49:40. | :49:42. | |
don't have to be taken. They want to cut education funding by 12%, local | :49:43. | :49:51. | |
government by 12%. That is an 38% increase on tax. In terms of your | :49:52. | :49:58. | |
spending plans, you have said you cannot increase NHS and councils. | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
You made it clear in the speech you are going to keep increasing | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
spending on the NHS so it is a difficult message for cancelled and | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
council spending. You seem to think this is a message I was giving on | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
the half of our party. It was aimed at other parties because they claim | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
you can do both. You are right to say that as we find more resources | :50:22. | :50:24. | |
for the NHS, you have to find them from elsewhere and that is where the | :50:25. | :50:30. | |
difficult decisions to come in. It sounded to me it is one or the | :50:31. | :50:36. | |
other. We are not looking to raise council budgets, which seems to be | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
the suggestion. When we look at where to find money, we look at | :50:41. | :50:45. | |
schemes that are coming to an end and rationalising things. Sometimes | :50:46. | :50:48. | |
we have to take difficult decisions where funding is kept in certain | :50:49. | :50:53. | |
areas because there is a limited pot of money. What we have tried to do | :50:54. | :50:59. | |
is prioritise spending on what the people of Wales will want. | :51:00. | :51:01. | |
You have talked about a ten year plan and we are halfway through it. | :51:02. | :51:07. | |
What is left to do? What have you failed to achieve in the first five | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
years that needs to be done in the second? It isn't failing, you get | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
five years delivering for people and you get a sense of what you can do | :51:16. | :51:22. | |
next. We have come up with six pledges -help older people, people | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
who need childcare, those who want training, people in the NHS and | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
education. These are the areas that are important for the people of | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
Wales. They are costly. We can deliver on them. We think they are | :51:36. | :51:41. | |
understandable and will make a difference to people's lives. | :51:42. | :51:46. | |
A ten year plan. Are you going to be First Minister after ten years? | :51:47. | :51:50. | |
I want to be First Minister in May. I think it is wrong for politicians | :51:51. | :51:54. | |
to say, I want to be there for a certain amount of time. I want the | :51:55. | :51:58. | |
people of Wales to put me back in charge as First Minister in May. | :51:59. | :52:05. | |
Thank you. I am pleased to say Nick has come down from Llandudno to join | :52:06. | :52:08. | |
us now. What was the mood of the conference? | :52:09. | :52:14. | |
It was a very busy conference. It would have been intense before an | :52:15. | :52:17. | |
assembly election and throw into the mix Jeremy Corbyn, throw into the | :52:18. | :52:23. | |
mix the fact that as things were unfolding in Llandudno, we had | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
events in Westminster playing out and the story was unfolding about | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
the confirmation of the date for the EU referendum. In terms of the set | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
piece speech from Carwyn Jones, I think there was the view in the | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
room, not just from party hacks, who would you -- who you would expect to | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
say this but from independent observers-it was one of his | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
strongest set pieces as he has given as a leader. It opened up the | :52:52. | :52:55. | |
personal element. His wife was the warm up act talking about family | :52:56. | :53:02. | |
holidays and the times they have met. He came in and talked about the | :53:03. | :53:05. | |
aspirations that his mother and father had for him. That was | :53:06. | :53:11. | |
introducing a new element. On the fundamental message of the decade of | :53:12. | :53:18. | |
delivery and being halfway in, asking for more time, there are pros | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
and cons. The clear strength for them is it brings Labour into the | :53:23. | :53:26. | |
here and now. Welsh Labour don't want to be defending failed policies | :53:27. | :53:32. | |
from 2002 in 2016 so it was not a triumphalist, look at our record | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
after 17 years of Welsh Labour since evolution came into being. It comes | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
into the here and now. The inevitable risk is it is an appeal | :53:42. | :53:47. | |
for more time and inevitably, the response from a lot of people will | :53:48. | :53:51. | |
be, you've had nearly 20 years! In the middle of the conference, bless | :53:52. | :53:57. | |
them, comes this huge news we are going to have a referendum. What is | :53:58. | :54:00. | |
your take on how the campaign will go in Wales. You know, I think a lot | :54:01. | :54:08. | |
of people are not ready for it yet. I was in Merthyr last week and I | :54:09. | :54:11. | |
spoke to a lot of people in relation to this and it is striking how many | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
people have not made up their mind. Maybe I should be more specific. | :54:16. | :54:18. | |
They haven't had the time to read Maybe I should be more specific. | :54:19. | :54:22. | |
on it and be in a Maybe I should be more specific. | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
make an informed choice. I have got an unscientific theory on this and | :54:28. | :54:28. | |
it is the date in an unscientific theory on this and | :54:29. | :54:32. | |
once you have a date in the calendar you then become a | :54:33. | :54:37. | |
on the issues that are involved. I think the war in terms of broadcast | :54:38. | :54:43. | |
and newspaper obsession with this over the months | :54:44. | :54:48. | |
and newspaper obsession with this I don't know if you were born | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
and newspaper obsession with this 1975, I was three. It | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
and newspaper obsession with this generation opportunity and will be a | :54:57. | :54:58. | |
huge story. I think people don't know what the | :54:59. | :55:00. | |
huge story. I think people don't be like. What is it going to feel | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
huge story. I think people don't like? I was in Swansea on Friday, | :55:06. | :55:07. | |
looking at the EU. Overall like? I was in Swansea on Friday, | :55:08. | :55:10. | |
more people wanted to leave than remain. You think of Swansea as a | :55:11. | :55:13. | |
place remain. You think of Swansea as a | :55:14. | :55:16. | |
million pounds of EU funding. remain. You think of Swansea as a | :55:17. | :55:23. | |
it surprise you, looking at the poll last week, more people in Wales | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
wanted to opt to leave than remain? Wales probably being the greatest | :55:29. | :55:34. | |
beneficiary of EU money than the best of the UK? There has | :55:35. | :55:37. | |
historically been a sense that Wales is more pro-Europe. There has been | :55:38. | :55:44. | |
some research to back that up. Then we had the European elections. We | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
have seen the rise in Ukip in Wales, really aiming for the assembly | :55:50. | :55:56. | |
elections. The EU aid issue will give a Welsh dynamic to this picture | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
because its presence is everywhere in so many communities and will have | :56:01. | :56:07. | |
to be addressed by both sides. There will be an overlap between the | :56:08. | :56:11. | |
referendum and the assembly election campaign. How will they deal with | :56:12. | :56:17. | |
that? Hugely. At the Labour conference in Llandudno, people were | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
deeply pessimistic. Stern warnings for people like me and other | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
journalists -you have a duty to separate the two. One said the | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
parties should form a packed and not talk about EU issues for fear of it | :56:32. | :56:36. | |
being a distraction in the assembly campaign. Inevitably, that is going | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
to be unrealistic. When assembly candidates knock on doors, people | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
are going to want to know what they think about the EU and not the | :56:45. | :56:47. | |
assembly. That is all from us. Goodbye. | :56:48. | :56:51. |