Browse content similar to 28/02/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The Prime Minister rams home his claim that leaving | :00:41. | :00:48. | |
the European Union puts jobs, security, even the world | :00:49. | :00:50. | |
Many Tories don't like his arguments. | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
David Cameron's mentor and former Tory leader Michael Howard will be | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
here to tell us why he thinks it's safe for Britain to leave - | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
and Labour big beast Alan Johnson will make the case for staying in. | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
Labour's not exactly united when it comes to renewing Trident - | :01:05. | :01:07. | |
that didn't stop Jeremy Corbyn telling protestors yesterday | :01:08. | :01:08. | |
that he believes in a nuclear-free Britain. | :01:09. | :01:17. | |
Following the death of young Conservative activist | :01:18. | :01:18. | |
Elliott Johnson amid allegations of bullying within the party, | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
we've spoken to one of those close to the centre of the story | :01:22. | :01:24. | |
It was hailed as the way forward for devolution, but what now | :01:25. | :01:37. | |
for the Wales Bill as MPs say it should be paused? | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
for the Wales Bill as MPs say it over Europe at the front runners | :01:41. | :01:42. | |
take sides on the referendum. We assessed the impact on the male | :01:43. | :01:44. | |
race. -- may roll race. All that to come - | :01:45. | :01:52. | |
and with me for the duration, three journalists who show as much | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
consensus on the big political For balance I should say they fall | :01:56. | :01:57. | |
out as often as Jeremy Corbyn's It's Nick Watt, Isabel Oakshott | :01:58. | :02:07. | |
and Janan Ganesh. And speaking of cabinet unity, | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
there's a distinct lack of it | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
in this morning's papers of campaigning since David Cameron | :02:14. | :02:14. | |
announced that a referendum on Britain's EU membership will take | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
place on the 23rd of June. The Fleet Street hounds have caught | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
the scent of a good old-fashioned Conservative feud over Europe, | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
and with the party and the cabinet divided over whether Britain should | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
stay or go, they're not The Sunday Times says | :02:27. | :02:28. | |
David Cameron has been warned that he'll face a leadership | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
challenge if he doesn't call a halt to so-called 'blue on blue' attacks | :02:33. | :02:34. | |
on fellow Conservatives. The Sunday Telegraph reports | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
on the 'battle of wills' between the two sides | :02:38. | :02:39. | |
with pieces by David Cameron and Iain Duncan Smith, | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
who says 'they can sack me The Observer leads with | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
Number 10's main message, which is to say that a British | :02:48. | :02:53. | |
exit would spark decades And the Mail on Sunday says | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
the Tory feud turned really nasty after Foreign Secretary Philip | :02:57. | :03:06. | |
Hammond had what it called So it seems fair to say that | :03:07. | :03:09. | |
relations between David Cameron and eurosceptics in his party | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
aren't exactly cordial. The welfare secretary | :03:14. | :03:15. | |
Iain Duncan Smith, he's one of the cabinet ministers arguing | :03:16. | :03:17. | |
to leave, was asked about it You don't think the Prime Minister | :03:18. | :03:29. | |
is much of a patriot, do you? This is not about personalities. They in | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
campaign's whole strategy seems to be about, it is terrible, it is | :03:34. | :03:40. | |
about saying that we are too small, too inconsequential and we cannot do | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
what we want. I don't know why anybody would want to run a country | :03:44. | :03:46. | |
like this. This country is the greatest honour. I think probably | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
the first time a cabinet minister has been asked if the Prime Minister | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
is a patriot and he does not reply yes. Is Mr Cameron getting the tone | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
and the content of this right? I think he made a big mistake earlier | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
this week when he lashed out at Boris Johnson in the Commons. I | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
think there was a degree of over interpreting those comments, and I | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
understand that there was a fuss about whether or not he had slighted | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
Boris Johnson's personal life with a reference to knowing couples that | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
had divorced. Mr Cameron thought he had Boris in the bag. He was | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
certainly bruised by that. The comment on marriage went over | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
Doris's aired, so there was a bit of over interpreting by people on all | :04:33. | :04:40. | |
sides. -- over progress's aired. But if Cameron is being called to stop | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
these attacks, he is the one who started them. Europe is just another | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
word for division in the Tory Party but it almost seems like the manner | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
and the tone of what the prime ministers saying, he is almost going | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
out of his way to upset those opposed to him. I disagree. I think | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
the grievances in the papers today are spurious. It has not been a blue | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
on blue campaign so far, not a huge amount of animosity and poison so | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
far although it is early days. Do they expect him not to play the | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
economic risk card? Do they expect him to go through the next four mums | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
using the single most devastating line of attack he has against the | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
other side, which is the unknown economic has heard of taking a punt | :05:25. | :05:27. | |
on Brexit? But that argument would be true even if he had brought back | :05:28. | :05:33. | |
the store from Brussels or brought back nothing from Brussels. The | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
economic argument is that this could be a profound shock to the world | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
economy. That is either true or not true, regardless of the settlement. | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
But that is not the given reason for their frustration with him. At the | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
moment they are focusing on the tone and negativity. And you don't feel | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
like they have the right to be aggrieved? No. It would be bizarre | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
Prime Minister to lead a campaign in favour of staying in without | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
deploying his most effective weapon. And what Mr Osborne is doing with | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
this argument is have one very simple, crude argument in the | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
general election, that Labour was not credible, and in this campaign | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
that it is a leap in the dark. He needs to be careful. The idea that | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
the world economy is going to tank because Britain leaves the European | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
Union, that Britain leaving the union is up there with the Chinese | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
fall in growth, it is absurd. What did George Osborne do? Equalled the | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
G20 finance ministers to write that into their conclusions. Yes, it will | :06:35. | :06:37. | |
be a challenge for the British economy if we leave the European | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
Union, but the idea that it is up there as a global risk that will | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
lead to some great world economic depression, I think he needs to be | :06:46. | :06:48. | |
careful. He has to ensure that what he does has credibility and I am not | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
sure that passes the test. What annoys a lot of the Tories is that | :06:53. | :06:55. | |
they are using arguments about staying in which I've always been | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
true, regardless of whether or not the settlement makes any difference. | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
To say that if we came out, there would be a profound economic shock, | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
that is true regardless of the settlement. I think that is what | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
annoys the Eurosceptics. They are using arguments that were true six | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
months ago. And many of the arguments are very thin. David | :07:19. | :07:20. | |
Cameron has written for the Telegraph today saying that he can | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
describe exactly what people will be voting for if they vote to stay in. | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
It is the status quo, it is not very difficult to describe that. It is | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
very frustrating for Eurosceptics that there is this constant spurious | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
claim by the In campaign that they cannot describe what Out looks like. | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
They describe what it looks like everyday. The problem is that it is | :07:43. | :07:48. | |
under article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty that exit people cannot | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
guarantee the deal. They can say it might be this or that but they | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
cannot guarantee it because we are out of the European Council the | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
moment we press the button. You wonder whether either side can | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
guarantee what the country will be like whether we stay in or come out. | :08:02. | :08:09. | |
We have a pretty good idea of who will be fighting on which site. | :08:10. | :08:17. | |
Both the Leave and the Remain camps have their own big figures, | :08:18. | :08:19. | |
and they wasted little time in putting aside old loyalties | :08:20. | :08:22. | |
Let's have a look at some of the big moments of the week. | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
I have known a number of couples who have begun divorce proceedings | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
but I do not know any who have begun divorce proceedings in order | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
This open border does not allow us to check and control people who may | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
come and we have seen what has happened in Paris where they spent | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
ages planning and plotting so who is to say it is not | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
beyond the wit of man that those might already be thinking about it? | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
Today almost 200 of Britain's biggest firms including 36 | :08:51. | :08:53. | |
on the FTSE 100 index published a letter warning that so-called | :08:54. | :08:55. | |
Brexit would put the economy at risk. | :08:56. | :09:06. | |
We have a great opportunity now to strike new deals for Britain | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
to be the hub of new trading arrangements around the world | :09:12. | :09:14. | |
and to have a fantastic new future so that is what I am going for. | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
In my judgment as Chancellor leaving the EU would represent a profound | :09:19. | :09:20. | |
economic shock for our country, for all of us and I am going to do | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
everything I can to prevent that happening. | :09:25. | :09:27. | |
The European Court of Justice interprets the European Union | :09:28. | :09:30. | |
treaties and until this agreement is embodied in treaty change then | :09:31. | :09:32. | |
the European Court of Justice is not bound by this agreement. | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
You saw there a few of the Conservative allies | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
David Cameron has failed to persuade of the case for remaining in the EU, | :09:42. | :09:44. | |
and now I'm joined by another one - the former party leader, | :09:45. | :09:47. | |
Tory peer and leave campaign Michael Howard. | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
Welcome to the programme. Let's start on this idea of a second | :09:52. | :09:57. | |
referendum. You have indicated that a vote to leave could jolt the rest | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
of the EU into giving us a better and bigger and more compounds of | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
deal. That could trigger a second referendum. Mr Cameron says that is | :10:06. | :10:08. | |
fiction and Boris Johnson now says the same. Are you sticking to that? | :10:09. | :10:15. | |
Yes. I cannot guarantee that would happen but it is a possibility. | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
Everybody who wants us to vote Remain is going to say it is for the | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
birds, and I understand that. There want us to vote to remain. Mr | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
Johnson is saying that, too. And I don't agree with him. We have | :10:33. | :10:35. | |
reached the same conclusion by different routes. The European Union | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
has form on this. They have done it before in relation to Ireland and | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
Denmark. The very things that make it certain that we would thrive as | :10:43. | :10:49. | |
an independent country, the fact that we are the fifth biggest | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
economy in the world, the strongest military power in Europe, the fact | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
that we are the second-biggest contributor to the European Union | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
budget, those things would mean that we would be sorely missed if we left | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
and that is why I think the countries in Europe, the European | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
leaders would say that if we voted to leave, let's have some more talks | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
and let's think again. Would they? Brexit, I think, if it happens would | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
happen at a time of what is clearly crisis for the EU, perhaps the worst | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
crisis in its history. If it responded by giving us everything | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
that the Eurosceptics wanted, there could be a rush to the door by other | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
countries. Why would the EU risk that? The very fact they are in a | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
crisis means they need us all the more. I cannot guarantee that they | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
would. It is an unknown. There is a chance of that but if they don't | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
come back, if all we are left with is the current under formed European | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
Union, I think we are better out than in. OK. Turning to the | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
economics. Last week we saw some of Britain's biggest companies, | :11:55. | :12:03. | |
household names, warning against the dangers of leaving the EU for jobs | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
and investment. Why should the British people not listen to them? | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
First of all, they were a minority even of the bosses of the FTSE 100 | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
companies. Moore did not sign them signed. Secondly, don't take it from | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
me, take it from someone with real authority, someone like Mervyn King, | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
the former governor of the Bank of England, who pointed out yesterday | :12:29. | :12:30. | |
that we ought to take what these people say with a pinch of salt. | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
Many of them were strong adherence of us joining the euro and predicted | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
economic disaster for us if we did not. But not all of them. How many | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
FTSE 100 chief executives are on your side? I don't know. But many | :12:45. | :12:51. | |
business people are, particularly small business people. And | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
particularly business people who do most of their business with | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
countries outside of the EU and who are very hampered in doing so by the | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
rules to which we are in thrall. The kind of people who signed this | :13:04. | :13:06. | |
letter saying we should stay in, they are also the same kind of | :13:07. | :13:09. | |
people who signed the same kind of letters backing the Tories come | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
election time. If you want us to listen to them, when it suits you, | :13:15. | :13:21. | |
but not when they don't agree with you? They can be right about one | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
thing without being right about another. He wants to pick them up | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
when it suits you and disparage them when it doesn't. Can I make a point | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
about this? I think we are in danger of looking at these issues through | :13:35. | :13:36. | |
the wrong end of the telescope. If we leave, there are some things that | :13:37. | :13:44. | |
I can absolutely guarantee. Number one, we will have our democracy | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
restored, our courts and our Parliament will no longer be | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
subservient to the European Union. Number two, as part of that, we will | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
recover control of our borders and we will have control over who comes | :13:56. | :14:01. | |
in and who doesn't. Number three, we will no longer have to contribute | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
billions of pounds a year to the EU's budget. Those are certainties, | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
indisputable. The onus is on those who wish us to remain 2.2 similar | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
indisputable arguments which outweigh those and so far I have not | :14:16. | :14:22. | |
seen them. But does it not worry you that all of our allies in the G20 | :14:23. | :14:29. | |
want us to stay in. Only President Putin among world leaders once asked | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
to leave? Does that not cause you concerned? The British people are | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
the best people to decide what is in our interest. You could also site | :14:39. | :14:46. | |
the Attorney General of the United States, who said that of the | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
European Union was undermining the intelligence sharing that is so | :14:52. | :14:54. | |
crucial in our fight against terrorism and crime. So now, it is | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
the British people who are the best people to decide what is in our | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
interest. The Prime Minister says there are 3 million jobs that depend | :15:05. | :15:07. | |
in some way on our trade in the European Union. He says we would not | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
go training -- we would go on trading with the EU, if we left, but | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
would the trade be at the same level? How many of these jobs would | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
be truly safe? Can you answer that question? They want to continue | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
trading with us and we are the biggest export market for the rest | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
of the European Union. And we run a great deficit on trade with them so | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
it is very much in their interest to continue to trade with us. We could | :15:36. | :15:42. | |
do some jobs, couldn't wake Umax -- we could lose. I do not think the | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
Germans would not continue selling as BMWs, or the French wine. If they | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
want to continue to have access to our market, we need to make sure we | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
have access to theirs. It is in our mutual interest. You say that all 3 | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
million jobs are guaranteed? I cannot offer you any guarantees and | :16:02. | :16:07. | |
neither can the banister. The great arts profit of integration as he did | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
very well, when he said that if the British do not want to sign up to | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
further integration in the European Union, we can have a very friendly | :16:18. | :16:19. | |
relationship with them, we can sign up to a free-trade agreement with | :16:20. | :16:22. | |
them and that would be the way forward. | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
Let me show you what the current Home Secretary who is the longest | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
serving Home Secretary says: I have great respect for her, I | :16:32. | :16:48. | |
don't quite know why she says that. I believe that we can continue to | :16:49. | :16:55. | |
have a very good and constructive working relationship with the member | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
states of the EU on security matters if we leave. The reason I say that | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
is simply this, we contribute a great deal to that relationship, our | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
intelligence services are the best in Europe. They want the help we can | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
give them and so there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why we should | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
not continue to have a close relationship with them on these | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
matters on an intergovernmental basis. The declaration of the | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
European Council, which I know you have read as carefully as I have, | :17:28. | :17:33. | |
says in terms, national security is our responsibility of the nation | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
states. One thing we would not have access to is the European arrest | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
warrant. We could come to an agreement on that. Let's say what | :17:43. | :17:43. | |
you said on that: it wouldn't be if we left. It could, | :17:44. | :17:57. | |
because we could easily reach an agreement with the Europeans that | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
the essentials of the European arrest warrant continued in force. | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
Not all my friends on the leading side with that that I think it would | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
be possible to reach such an agreement. No other non-EU member | :18:11. | :18:17. | |
has use of the arrest warrant. No other nonmember is in the same | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
relationship as we are. We don't know. It was used to bring back one | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
of the failed London bombers from Italy and it came back quickly and | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
the arrest warrant. He is now in jail, how would we do that? That is | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
why I was in favour of it at the time and I think because we offer so | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
much to our European neighbours in terms of the capacity which we bring | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
to these issues they would be keen to continue in that sort of | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
arrangement with us if we left the European Union. Let me show you what | :18:54. | :19:07. | |
Rob Wainwright, the head of Europe all -- Europol said. The head of | :19:08. | :19:19. | |
Europol, British, the longest serving Home Secretary, both think | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
that our security would be more at risk. And the Attorney General of | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
the United States accuses the European Union of undermining the | :19:30. | :19:36. | |
fight against terrorism and I think in all of these issues we need to | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
have some self confidence and self belief. We are a big country, an | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
important country and we have a huge amount to offer in terms of | :19:47. | :19:49. | |
cooperation with our neighbours. It is in the interest to continue to | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
cooperate with us and I have no doubt we could reach perfectly | :19:55. | :19:57. | |
satisfactory arrangements with them if we voted to leave. Finally, Mr | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
Cameron was once your special adviser, you were his mentor and you | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
told his mother one day that he would be Prime Minister, what did he | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
say when you told him you are joining the league side? We had a | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
difficult conversation, I find it difficult to be on the opposite side | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
of the argument to David Cameron. He was very disappointed I had come to | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
this conclusion and I understand and respect that. Michael Howard, thank | :20:27. | :20:29. | |
you for being with us. So that's the case for leaving put | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
by an elder statesman Let's turn now to an elder statesman | :20:34. | :20:35. | |
of the Labour Party - although he's a fresh-faced one - | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
it's Alan Johnson and he is leading the Labour In for Britain Group, | :20:40. | :20:42. | |
and he's in Hull. Your side of the argument stresses | :20:43. | :20:54. | |
the risks and uncertainties of leaving the EU, do you accept there | :20:55. | :21:01. | |
are risks and uncertainties with staying? No. Not in the sense that | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
Michael Howard was suggesting. I thought what he said was wrong, he | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
said he could guarantee we would not be contributing to the European | :21:11. | :21:13. | |
Union and could guarantee there would not be free movement but he | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
cannot. If we take the Norway option which many of those on the leading | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
site promote then we would indeed be paying them, Norway is the 10th | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
biggest contributor. They have free movement. Why would we have to | :21:28. | :21:33. | |
follow what Norway does? They are a small economy and we are the second | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
largest in Europe? I am just saying that there are other options, the | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
Swiss option once again. Michael cannot guarantee it. We are the | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
fifth biggest economy, we were the fourth when we were in government, | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
but people say that only leaving side but they do not equate it at | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
all with 41 years of membership of the EU. Part of that economic | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
strength, I am in Hull where there is the biggest investment any where | :22:04. | :22:10. | |
in the world by Siemens, billions of pounds and 1000 jobs. They are | :22:11. | :22:17. | |
building wind turbines for offshore Britain. It was fierce competition, | :22:18. | :22:28. | |
if you take... They are building stuff Britain, why would they not do | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
it here? If you take Britain outside the EU you have all kinds of | :22:34. | :22:36. | |
uncertainties and all kinds of possible barriers. The Society of | :22:37. | :22:43. | |
motor manufacturers point out that whilst sales to China and Russia | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
have declined their sales to Europe are up by 10% because we don't pay | :22:49. | :22:56. | |
any tariffs to export into Europe. The other point I wanted to mention | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
was that Michael was part of a government which opted out of | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
something called the social chapter, basic protection for workers. In | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
this huge market, the biggest commercial market, bigger than China | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
and America, there are protections for workers. Michael opted out of | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
those and I believe that he and many others think that is good to not | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
have those protections. We opted back in. For us those protections | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
for workers, to avoid this country becoming a race to the bottom, | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
anything goes kind of free-market experiment, are very important. Hold | :23:33. | :23:39. | |
on, why couldn't the British government, why wouldn't a British | :23:40. | :23:42. | |
government outside the EU replicate these rights if it was so minded, | :23:43. | :23:45. | |
what would stop us from doing that if the government got the democratic | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
will of the British people? The first point is as I have explained | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
that a British government chose not to do that. That was Alex Goode | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
British government. The British government that we were part of | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
opted into those arrangements. There is nothing to suggest in the history | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
of Conservative government that if we left the EU that they would opt | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
into all this. That would be a matter for the British people to | :24:15. | :24:17. | |
choose if they wanted that government. If we let the EU at the | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
next election Labour would promise four weeks paid leave, rights for | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
workers, paid maternity at the next election and if that is what the | :24:28. | :24:30. | |
British people want they will vote for you? The people who want us to | :24:31. | :24:36. | |
leave, the argument I am making, is that the people who want us to leave | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
consider all of that to be red tape. They consider all of that to be | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
bureaucracy. We believe in that kind of market that there has to be | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
protection for consumers, for the environment and for workers. That is | :24:51. | :24:53. | |
an important part of what Europe gives us. Non-EU countries, Norway, | :24:54. | :25:01. | |
Australia, Canada, Iceland, they all score highly even on the trade | :25:02. | :25:04. | |
unionist global workers rights index. Why wouldn't an independent | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
UK, if voters were so minded to do so and I don't see any mainstream | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
politician saying they would want to take away four weeks paid leave, why | :25:15. | :25:22. | |
does it need Europe to do it? That's a very good question. In this | :25:23. | :25:31. | |
country alone, it is a political consensus in countries like Norway | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
and Sweden that there should be decent basic rights for workers. In | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
this country it is an election issue. Why shouldn't it be an | :25:39. | :25:49. | |
election issue? I believe if you are trading into this huge market and | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
have got all those opportunities to trade then one aspect of that must | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
be that you don't undercut each other on the basis of terms and | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
conditions. I believe it's an essential part of being in Europe | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
and that is why it is an important part of our campaign to maintain | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
those rights and protections. Moving on to immigration, people are | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
concerned about the scale of it, is there anything in the settlement of | :26:16. | :26:18. | |
David Cameron that'll make a material difference to immigration | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
from the EU? Yes there is, it is very underrated nice to. Two points | :26:24. | :26:31. | |
which were negotiated by Theresa May that were not in the package that we | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
saw in the Donald Tusk exchange were very important. First of all | :26:37. | :26:39. | |
tackling sham marriages and secondly to say that people coming into this | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
country who we suspect might be engaged in the future in activities | :26:45. | :26:50. | |
we would find criminal or perhaps terrorism, that we can stop them | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
coming in. That is important, at the moment it is based on what we know, | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
not on what we predict. Sham marriages with their largely to the | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
subcontinent and is very little to do with Europe. You asked me for two | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
things... I don't know what difference it would make to the | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
numbers, it is about 100 is to 5000 per year net migration coming to | :27:16. | :27:18. | |
this country and it will continue at that level if we stay in want it? | :27:19. | :27:28. | |
There is nothing we can do about net EU migration at that level. | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
Absolutely. I have said that before. It was David Cameron's package. In | :27:34. | :27:40. | |
fairness of people making contributions before taking | :27:41. | :27:42. | |
working-class tax credits but I never thought this was a draw for | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
people to come -- taking working tax credits. We can do something to stop | :27:47. | :27:53. | |
the expectation and we don't need the rest of Europe to do that, I | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
think David Cameron was right, you are right about free movement within | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
the European Union but people are worried about movement coming from | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
outside the European Union and outside the European Union ourselves | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
I think we would be weaker. Not just because we'll would the protection | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
of the Dublin accord -- not just because we will lose. The most | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
honourable point is Calais to Dover and that operation of the Border | :28:21. | :28:26. | |
Force moving to Calais, the mayor comes over and says teacher border | :28:27. | :28:33. | |
backed every couple of months. That is between France and Britain, it is | :28:34. | :28:36. | |
nothing to do with the European Union. This is the point and I think | :28:37. | :28:42. | |
this is what Michael missed, if we wrench ourselves away from the | :28:43. | :28:48. | |
European Union after 41 years of membership, does anyone think there | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
will be huge goodwill out there for Britain? Here is another point about | :28:53. | :29:00. | |
French politics, the French presidential right wing campaigns | :29:01. | :29:03. | |
who might well win next year are saying they will get rid of it even | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
if we stay in the European Union. There you are. So what is the point? | :29:10. | :29:16. | |
Nothing to do with the EU. I don't think anybody doubt that if we left | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
the EU it would seriously bring into jeopardy that arrangement and that | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
is the most vulnerable entry point. Jeremy Corbyn believes we should not | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
look upon immigration as a problem. Do you agree in the context of this | :29:34. | :29:42. | |
debate about Europe? Only in the sense that it is not the driving | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
force, people don't come here, they come here to work by and large, they | :29:47. | :29:52. | |
don't come here to claim benefits. In that respect I do. I think as | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
Jeremy accepts the exploitation which comes with it needs to be | :29:58. | :30:03. | |
addressed. So to be clear the scale of immigration if we stay in the EU | :30:04. | :30:09. | |
does not change. It might do. I will tell you why it might do, I was Home | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
Secretary before Theresa May, the net migration figure was around | :30:15. | :30:21. | |
165,000, very low. Because we had just gone through the collapse of | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
Liman brothers and the economy was doing badly. If we come out of the | :30:26. | :30:31. | |
EU and are in such a state as far as our economy is concerned it might | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
stop people wanting to come here. OK, you said we have the best | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
lyrics, meaning your side, but we are still struggling to put them to | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
music, why can't you find the right chin? What I meant by that is they | :30:46. | :30:52. | |
have simplistic let's regain the borders and regain our sovereign | :30:53. | :30:58. | |
three and it's quite a complex argument to say actually we have got | :30:59. | :31:04. | |
the best of both worlds. Yes we have some sovereign tree into Europe but | :31:05. | :31:10. | |
that gives us influence over other member states and gives us a louder | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
voice and a more powerful voice in the rest of the world. We will give | :31:15. | :31:20. | |
you that, you love your music so we will give you time to find a tune | :31:21. | :31:26. | |
until we meet again. Alan Johnson, thank you. | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
Let's turn now to the bullying allegations surrounding the death | :31:32. | :31:33. | |
of young Conservative activist Elliott Johnson. | :31:34. | :31:34. | |
An inquest is due to open this week after the 21-year-old was found dead | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
It's thought he took his own life weeks after raising allegations | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
about the way he was being treated in the Conservatives' youth wing. | :31:43. | :31:45. | |
He left behind a suicide note naming two other activists. | :31:46. | :31:52. | |
Today, one of them, a man called Andre Walker, | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
speaks out about his relationship with Elliott Johnson | :31:58. | :31:59. | |
and the bullying allegations for the first time. | :32:00. | :32:01. | |
For nearly six months a grieving family, friends, | :32:02. | :32:10. | |
colleagues and the media have been trying to fathom why a young | :32:11. | :32:13. | |
conservative activist, 21-year-old Elliot Johnson, | :32:14. | :32:14. | |
lay down on a railway line and took his own life. | :32:15. | :32:17. | |
The student vote is really important. | :32:18. | :32:20. | |
Just months before, he had been an enthusiastic volunteer for Road | :32:21. | :32:23. | |
We are going to be deciding the general election. | :32:24. | :32:26. | |
This was the brainchild of a former Conservative candidate, | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
Mark Clarke, that would bus young conservatives around the country | :32:31. | :32:33. | |
to campaign on doorsteps during the 2015 general election. | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
Are you going to help change the future of our country? | :32:37. | :32:56. | |
Since the death of Elliott, lurid headlines have reported | :32:57. | :32:59. | |
complaints being made against Mr Clarke | :33:00. | :33:00. | |
of bullying, sexual impropriety and blackmail in relation | :33:01. | :33:03. | |
All of which Mr Clarke vigorously denies. | :33:04. | :33:06. | |
Accusations of a Conservative cover-up have led to the resignation | :33:07. | :33:08. | |
of former party co-chairman Grant Shapps, pressure | :33:09. | :33:10. | |
on the current chairman Lord Feldman, Mr Clarke banned | :33:11. | :33:13. | |
from the party for life, and an internal party investigation | :33:14. | :33:16. | |
underway already widely criticised by the Johnson family. | :33:17. | :33:19. | |
Elliott left a note to be read after his death directly accusing | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
Mr Clarke of bullying him and another person, | :33:24. | :33:25. | |
The note was not all that Elliott left, there was also a secret | :33:26. | :33:34. | |
recording of a night at a pub with all three of them | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
in which Andre Walker appears aggressive and threatening over | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
an official complaint Elliott was going to make about Mr Clarke. | :33:42. | :34:02. | |
In the six months which have followed, Andre Walker has been | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
portrayed in the media as Mr Clarke's henchmen, | :34:08. | :34:10. | |
ready to strongarm those who stood in his way. | :34:11. | :34:21. | |
Now in his first interview Mr Walker gives his side of events | :34:22. | :34:24. | |
nature of his friendship with Elliot Johnson. | :34:25. | :34:26. | |
The Andre Walker that the public has seen so far in relation to this | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
story, is that an Andre Walker you recognise? | :34:31. | :34:32. | |
If I take you back to the day that the covert recording took | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
place, Elliott asked me to come with him to meet with Mark Clarke | :34:37. | :34:39. | |
which was a meeting that he wanted to discuss the problems they had. | :34:40. | :34:42. | |
I met Elliott beforehand and we went to the pub together and met Mark. | :34:43. | :34:45. | |
What you hear is me getting frustrated partway through | :34:46. | :34:47. | |
What you don't hear, what wasn't released to most | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
of the media was at the end Elliott inviting me back to his place | :34:52. | :34:54. | |
because I had missed the last train and us leaving the pub together. | :34:55. | :35:00. | |
If you look at that secret recording, it sounds | :35:01. | :35:02. | |
like you are some kind of hatchet man for Mark Clarke. | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
I think everyone who is fat and from the North of England | :35:08. | :35:14. | |
and involved in politics gets accused of being a bruiser | :35:15. | :35:17. | |
and it is something I never took particularly seriously, | :35:18. | :35:20. | |
I don't recognise the criticism and I think the media has called | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
almost everyone I have ever met in politics and who are these | :35:26. | :35:28. | |
people that I bullied or threatened or harangued? | :35:29. | :35:29. | |
Nobody has come forward, in fact there is plenty of evidence | :35:30. | :35:32. | |
that I didn't do any of those things. | :35:33. | :35:34. | |
What was the nature of the relationship | :35:35. | :35:36. | |
So, Mark Clarke introduced me to Elliott because we both had | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
We hit it off straightaway and the relationship started | :35:41. | :35:43. | |
It lasted until the day he died, as far as I was concerned. | :35:44. | :35:50. | |
The reason I have been coy about that is I know that saying | :35:51. | :35:53. | |
I'm very sorry about that and it is not my intention to go out | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
We have got to discuss this issue, we have to discuss the issue | :35:59. | :36:04. | |
of homophobia and why people, even as close to him as me were not | :36:05. | :36:07. | |
told about the mental health problems. | :36:08. | :36:09. | |
This is a reference to a British Transport Police report | :36:10. | :36:11. | |
prepared ahead of this weeks inquest seen by Mr Walker. | :36:12. | :36:20. | |
The Daily Mail has reported that it suggests: | :36:21. | :36:30. | |
But also that Elliot Johnson had made previous | :36:31. | :36:32. | |
health issues relating to his being accepted as gay. | :36:33. | :36:38. | |
Speaking to the BBC in response to the story, his father denies | :36:39. | :36:41. | |
It is not relevant, Elliott took his life because he had been | :36:42. | :36:51. | |
bullied and picked on generally by certain persons and let down | :36:52. | :36:54. | |
by other organisations around the Conservative Party. | :36:55. | :36:56. | |
He was treated badly, that is why he took his life. | :36:57. | :37:02. | |
He was treated appallingly by people and organisations and we want | :37:03. | :37:11. | |
to make sure that he receives justice for what happened to him. | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
Many of Andre Walker's old friends have blamed him and shunned him. | :37:15. | :37:16. | |
He says that has prevented him from being able to grieve. | :37:17. | :37:19. | |
I was not able to go to the funeral service. | :37:20. | :37:21. | |
Because of the things which were said about me. | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
That was very hurtful because I would have liked | :37:25. | :37:26. | |
Similarly I don't know where Elliott's final resting place is, | :37:27. | :37:29. | |
I would like to visit it, whether that is going to be possible | :37:30. | :37:32. | |
The one memorial service I was able to go to somebody screamed at me | :37:33. | :37:39. | |
and I was effectively thrown out which has just made it impossible | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
for me to pay my respects in the way that I feel I ought to. | :37:44. | :37:46. | |
How would you describe Elliott as a person? | :37:47. | :37:49. | |
He was great fun, we used to go out and have a real laugh and I think | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
that this sort of sad life which people have characterised him | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
as having in London where it was all very depressing and he didn't have | :37:59. | :38:07. | |
many friends and people were bullying him on a day-to-day | :38:08. | :38:10. | |
basis, to my mind is surely not him at all and I think it is sad that | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
It's just gone 11.35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics. | :38:15. | :38:17. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now | :38:18. | :38:20. | |
we'll be talking about Jeremy Corbyn's appearance | :38:21. | :38:26. | |
at a rally for CND, and a big week in the race to the White House. | :38:27. | :38:39. | |
Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics Wales. | :38:40. | :38:42. | |
Must do better - a year after it was announced, | :38:43. | :38:44. | |
MPs say the Wales Bill should be put on hold so it can be improved. | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
And why thousands of women like Elizabeth are having to wait | :38:49. | :38:50. | |
It was hailed as the way to decide what's devolved once and for all, | :38:51. | :38:56. | |
but now there are more questions than answers over the Wales Bill. | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
It claims to devolve more powers to Cardiff Bay but today | :39:01. | :39:03. | |
the Welsh Affairs Select Committee of MPs says it should be put on hold | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
because there are too many issues which need to be sorted out. | :39:08. | :39:10. | |
Here's what its chair, the Conservative MP David Davies, | :39:11. | :39:12. | |
Here it was difficult to get a collective consensus | :39:13. | :39:18. | |
because there are some members of the committee who, | :39:19. | :39:20. | |
at one end, would like powers taken away from the Assembly, | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
there are others who would like an independent Wales, | :39:25. | :39:27. | |
so what I would say as somebody who sits as chair is that there | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
are concerns over how the decisions had been arrived at on all sides | :39:33. | :39:38. | |
and we thought that perhaps some of the decisions about which powers | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
should go towards the Assembly could be better explained. | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
Well, joining me now to explain what's going on is Manon George | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
who's an expert in the law governing Welsh devolution. | :39:51. | :39:58. | |
Thank you for coming in. We have heard what the committee said but as | :39:59. | :40:05. | |
you see it, what are the main problems? It is good to see that the | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
Welsh office committee have conducted this pre-legislative crew | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
tinny because it is not happy with all the Parliament bills so people | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
have had their chance to have their say about the Bill and the Secretary | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
of State has consulted widely. They have raised the same concerns as we | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
did at the Wales governance Centre, so the main issue would be the list | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
of reserved powers. The list of things that the Assembly cannot | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
legislate on. It is generally considered to be the best way of | :40:37. | :40:39. | |
devolving power so devolving everything except for particular | :40:40. | :40:42. | |
matters which are reserved to Westminster. But whether it is a | :40:43. | :40:48. | |
better model or not depends on the list of reservations and the width | :40:49. | :40:55. | |
and depth of those reservations and they argue there are too many | :40:56. | :41:01. | |
reservations. General reservations and specific reservations. So it is | :41:02. | :41:04. | |
a very complex list of things they cannot legislate on. So Whitehall | :41:05. | :41:10. | |
departments have just decided, we are not going to give away those | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
powers. If that is the case, how has that been allowed to happen? It | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
seems to be a process of a trawl through Whitehall departments of | :41:21. | :41:23. | |
what they are willing to devolve and what they want to keep and one of | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
the reasons for keeping so many powers back is that desire to | :41:28. | :41:33. | |
maintain a unified legal system for England and. But legislating in | :41:34. | :41:39. | |
Wales, those laws become part of the laws of England and were. There is | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
quite a complex system and legislating can have a knock-on | :41:44. | :41:47. | |
effect on how the law operates in England. But shouldn't the Wales | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
Office and Stephen Crabb, the Secretary of State for where is, be | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
more hands-on? Just say, you justify why you should be allowed to keep | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
that. Is that a way around this? There needs to be justification for | :42:04. | :42:07. | |
every reservation. Reservations should be based on principles, so | :42:08. | :42:13. | |
why do these reservations need to be reservations, why are we keeping | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
these things back? The important thing is to have a clear and | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
sustainable devolution settlement. This is the fourth proposal now for | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
devolution in Wales so I am sure people are fed up of talking about | :42:27. | :42:30. | |
the constitution and it is a time to have a settled settlement for Wales. | :42:31. | :42:36. | |
Therefore, the Wales Bill, this current set of... Should it be | :42:37. | :42:43. | |
scrapped and started all over again or can it be salvaged? It is time to | :42:44. | :42:49. | |
take Wales seriously and we need to think about the devolution | :42:50. | :42:52. | |
settlement that will last. I think there are things that can be done | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
with the Bill. It does not have to be scrapped but it is time to take a | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
step back to revise the Bill and think about those big questions. The | :43:02. | :43:07. | |
list of reservations, also the necessity test. There is a test as | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
to whether it is necessary to legislate on something. The criminal | :43:12. | :43:17. | |
law and the private law are also reserved, which cause huge | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
difficulties for the Assembly in legislating because to make the law | :43:21. | :43:26. | |
in forcible, you need to be able to provide sanctions. Also, the | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
question of a legal system for Wales. That question is not | :43:33. | :43:35. | |
addressed in the Bill so whether Wales should have its own legal | :43:36. | :43:41. | |
system. Do you think that legal system, the courts and those things, | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
should be run from Wales rather than on an England and will basis? Is | :43:46. | :43:52. | |
that necessary to move forward? I think it needs to be identified that | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
there is a body of Welsh law and laws made in Wales for the people of | :43:57. | :44:00. | |
Wales should only extend to Wales so that only Welsh judges could be able | :44:01. | :44:06. | |
to decide on cases involving Welsh law. The purpose of devolution was | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
to bring government closer to the people so decision-making should | :44:12. | :44:14. | |
also be brought closer to the people. Is there a problem with | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
having a distinct Welsh legal system, it has been tangled up with | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
England for so long, and picking that might be difficult. I think it | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
would be more straightforward than we think because if we are making | :44:27. | :44:33. | |
laws that apply only to Wales since before the days of devolution, acts | :44:34. | :44:37. | |
of the UK Parliament which apply only to Wales, and judges are very | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
used to applying different bodies of law. We have two apply EU law, human | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
rights laws, so I don't think it would be as difficult as people | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
think, and we would not necessarily have to have a completely separate | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
system. We would not have to have a separate court system, separate | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
prisons, we don't even have two devolve the administration of | :45:01. | :45:08. | |
justice. We could have courts in Wales only applying Welsh law. But | :45:09. | :45:11. | |
that is not included in this Bill so that would have to be another | :45:12. | :45:13. | |
commission on devolution. The Welsh government have proposed an | :45:14. | :45:16. | |
amendment to the draft Wales Bill which would provide for a distinct | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
jurisdiction so they suggest it is just a matter of amending the Bill. | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
That is what I would like to see in the next draft of the Wales Bill. | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
The next draft of the next draft! Thank you very much. | :45:32. | :45:33. | |
It must be a pretty good time to be a Ukip supporter. | :45:34. | :45:36. | |
The party's main aim - a referendum on our membership | :45:37. | :45:39. | |
of the EU - is around the corner, and if you look at the opinion | :45:40. | :45:42. | |
polls, they're also set to get their first Members | :45:43. | :45:44. | |
So why do we hear so many stories of back stabbing and | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
Well, this weekend, Ukip have been spending some time at the seaside | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
at their Spring Conference in Llandudno. | :45:55. | :45:55. | |
Ukip's Welsh Leader, Nathan Gill, has been speaking to our reporter | :45:56. | :45:58. | |
Nathan Gill, welcome to Sunday Politics Wales. | :45:59. | :46:04. | |
Let's start with a question about Ukip Wales' identity. | :46:05. | :46:07. | |
Many voters in Wales who are perhaps sceptical about devolution have seen | :46:08. | :46:10. | |
Ukip as the party that most mirrors their views. | :46:11. | :46:12. | |
You took to the stage this weekend and told members to vote to leave | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
the EU to give the Assembly more power. | :46:17. | :46:18. | |
Does Ukip Wales have an identity crisis? | :46:19. | :46:21. | |
There is no difference in the fact that we are sceptical | :46:22. | :46:25. | |
about devolution but we want it to work. | :46:26. | :46:28. | |
We have seen for ourselves how 15, 16 years of Labour-run devolution | :46:29. | :46:34. | |
has not delivered for the people of Wales so no wonder the people | :46:35. | :46:37. | |
of Wales are not very happy with devolution. | :46:38. | :46:40. | |
Not very happy with the institutions, with | :46:41. | :46:43. | |
the Cardiff-centric politicians, and we see and we feel | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
that we have a place in widening that and allowing people to feel | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
more a part of devolution by devolving things closer to them, | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
which is obviously at the council level. | :46:58. | :47:00. | |
But on one hand you talk about more power for the Assembly, | :47:01. | :47:03. | |
at the same time you have policies announced this weekend saying no | :47:04. | :47:06. | |
more AMs and no tax powers without a referendum. | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
Absolutely, but as we have said, we've got the fishing waters, | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
200 miles of fishing around Wales, which right now, | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
through the Common Fisheries programme, anybody from all over | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
Europe can come and fish and take our natural resources. | :47:24. | :47:29. | |
Absolutely the people of Wales can have those resources taken back | :47:30. | :47:35. | |
when we leave the EU because that is the reality of it. | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
Another thing that has characterised the conference this weekend | :47:40. | :47:42. | |
is the split within the leave camp between grassroots out, | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
Ukip-backed and Nigel Farage-backed, and Vote Leave, your MP | :47:47. | :47:50. | |
Douglas Carswell a part of that campaign. | :47:51. | :47:53. | |
They even had a fringe event at the same time | :47:54. | :47:55. | |
What are you going to do to make sure there is a united leave | :47:56. | :48:01. | |
What we need to wait for is the designation, | :48:02. | :48:06. | |
the official designation, because as soon as that happens, | :48:07. | :48:08. | |
everybody who wants to leave, all of the Brexiteers, | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
we will all galvanise behind that and we will all push forward. | :48:13. | :48:16. | |
It is obvious that is what we are going to do. | :48:17. | :48:19. | |
Have you had discussions with Andrew RT Davies about a united message | :48:20. | :48:21. | |
No, I have had no discussions with him at all. | :48:22. | :48:27. | |
Is that something you would look to do? | :48:28. | :48:29. | |
Everybody who wants to leave the EU, we should join forces and we should | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
combine our skill set and the activists we have got | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
to make sure we get the vote out and that we sell the positive | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
Let's turn to the months of internal rowing in Ukip Wales ahead | :48:44. | :48:51. | |
of the Assembly election candidate selections. | :48:52. | :48:55. | |
John Atkinson, a close colleague of yours, you have worked with him | :48:56. | :48:59. | |
for some years on election campaigns for Ukip Wales. | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
He resigned on Thursday saying that, frankly, all the infighting had | :49:04. | :49:06. | |
become a distraction from what he sees as the prime focus | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
Nobody gets into politics to infight, nobody gets | :49:11. | :49:21. | |
into politics in order to fight your own people. | :49:22. | :49:23. | |
What we want and what we need is a cohesive direction with regards | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
to the two big campaigns that we need to fight. | :49:29. | :49:31. | |
The Welsh Assembly and the biggest one of our lives, leaving the EU. | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
I completely agree with John, there is a distraction. | :49:37. | :49:41. | |
Many people joined Ukip not so we could get Assembly Members | :49:42. | :49:44. | |
elected but because they knew the biggest battle of our political | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
Part of that destraction has been a petition calling for you to step | :49:49. | :49:57. | |
There has been a drip, drip of negative stories. | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
How personally draining has that been? | :50:03. | :50:05. | |
Have you considered walking away like John has? | :50:06. | :50:07. | |
Look, I got into politics, the main reason being I wanted us | :50:08. | :50:14. | |
to leave the EU and I could see that politics in Britain was broken | :50:15. | :50:18. | |
and certainly politics in Wales is broken. | :50:19. | :50:21. | |
The Welsh Assembly has not and is continuing to not deliver | :50:22. | :50:24. | |
for us so I believe there is a very important job for us to do, | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
I really believe that we can do that so I don't want to walk away | :50:30. | :50:37. | |
from that, I want to make sure that we get that job done. | :50:38. | :50:41. | |
So if you get elected to Cardiff Bay and then the group has | :50:42. | :50:44. | |
a leadership election, you would throw yourself into that? | :50:45. | :50:47. | |
Who knows how you will feel tomorrow? | :50:48. | :50:54. | |
What should Ukip's role be in the Assembly? | :50:55. | :50:58. | |
You have talked about opposition, providing scrutiny of | :50:59. | :51:00. | |
Nigel Farage on BBC Radio Wales this weekend said you would be open | :51:01. | :51:05. | |
to working with other parties, open to coalition deals. | :51:06. | :51:08. | |
Well, if there was a chance for us to work in a grand coalition to get | :51:09. | :51:15. | |
rid of the failing Labour administration and to actually | :51:16. | :51:20. | |
improve the lot of the people of Wales, we would have to do that | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
because the reason why we got into politics, each of us, | :51:25. | :51:28. | |
is to improve the lot of our fellow man here in Wales. | :51:29. | :51:31. | |
That is why Nigel talks about that, but whether that would be | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
Plaid Cymru would need to work with us and I am not sure | :51:36. | :51:43. | |
When we say that we need to be a strong opposition, | :51:44. | :51:48. | |
it is because we are being realistic and honest about this with people. | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
We know that we are not going to be running Cardiff Bay by ourselves. | :51:53. | :51:58. | |
We know that, so what we are saying is, we will be that strong | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
opposition that is needed for any government to behave properly. | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
Next Sunday is Mothering Sunday, and while many women will be looking | :52:07. | :52:16. | |
forward to being spoiled by their families, others are facing | :52:17. | :52:19. | |
Thousands of women across Wales say they were not told they'd have | :52:20. | :52:25. | |
to wait longer to get their pensions as part of plans to equalise | :52:26. | :52:28. | |
It's a part of the world that we will never see again. | :52:29. | :52:36. | |
I don't suppose we will ever go back to Australia. | :52:37. | :52:39. | |
Spending more quality time with her husband Brian is exactly | :52:40. | :52:43. | |
how Elisabeth Conway expected to spend her 60s. | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
Elizabeth, from Tonteg near Pontypridd, retired as a nurse | :52:48. | :52:50. | |
when she was 58, expecting to start receiving a state pension | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
when she turns 63 later this year, but soon after leaving work | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
she was forced to go back after finding out she would not be | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
getting her state pension for another three years. | :53:04. | :53:06. | |
You think you are going to have your pension at a set age, | :53:07. | :53:10. | |
which would add again if you have got a pension, | :53:11. | :53:14. | |
add to that, and it would give you a reasonably good life. | :53:15. | :53:18. | |
But now I have to work to get money to do the things we want to do. | :53:19. | :53:28. | |
The confusion has come from efforts to bring the state pension age | :53:29. | :53:33. | |
For years, as men got their state pension at 65, women | :53:34. | :53:39. | |
Legislation passed 20 years ago set out a timetable to equalise those | :53:40. | :53:46. | |
ages at 65 by 2020, but then in 2011, the UK Coalition Government | :53:47. | :53:53. | |
brought that deadline forward to 2018. | :53:54. | :53:56. | |
The state pension age will increase further to 66 for both men and women | :53:57. | :54:02. | |
For Elizabeth and many thousands like her, the main issue has been | :54:03. | :54:09. | |
My daughter expects to work until she is 66, even 70. | :54:10. | :54:15. | |
More than 2.5 million women, an entire generation, are affected. | :54:16. | :54:32. | |
Thousands have signed a petition and expressed anger | :54:33. | :54:35. | |
on social media pages set up by the Women Against State Pension | :54:36. | :54:40. | |
It has been pointed out many women are already disadvantaged | :54:41. | :54:46. | |
in retirement, having been paid less in the workplace and often having | :54:47. | :54:51. | |
The government thought this was a group of women that | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
could be pushed to one side so that they could save a few pound | :54:57. | :54:59. | |
What has happened in reality is, they have been proved to be | :55:00. | :55:05. | |
The simple answer would be for the government to look at this | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
and make some kind of offer to these ladies to fill the gap between now | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
and the time when they are entitled to their state pension. | :55:15. | :55:18. | |
And that is exactly what campaigners are calling for but the Department | :55:19. | :55:22. | |
for Work and Pensions insists it has no intention of revisiting the state | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
Prolonging the inequality between men and women would cost | :55:27. | :55:32. | |
It also insists letters were sent to all the affected women advising | :55:33. | :55:39. | |
The DWP's Cardiff office shares a site with the Equality | :55:40. | :55:45. | |
and Human Rights Commission, which supports the principle | :55:46. | :55:49. | |
of equal state pension ages for men and women. | :55:50. | :55:52. | |
However, the commission is disappointed with the way | :55:53. | :55:56. | |
What has been a serious problem is the failure to communicate | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
properly with women to let them know the situation. | :56:02. | :56:04. | |
Unaware of the fact that women who have planned their retirement | :56:05. | :56:07. | |
for a long time, suddenly have discovered that they are not | :56:08. | :56:10. | |
going to get their pensions as quickly as they thought and have | :56:11. | :56:13. | |
had to carry on working longer so this is a failure | :56:14. | :56:16. | |
Although we support the change, it should have been | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
The commission is now calling for more action to address | :56:21. | :56:25. | |
inequalities it claims still exist between men and women | :56:26. | :56:28. | |
in the workplace, including salaries and access to senior positions. | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
Elizabeth is still trying to find the time to do the things she enjoys | :56:33. | :56:36. | |
like carving gifts for her grandchildren. | :56:37. | :56:39. | |
As the country tries to cope with an ageing population, | :56:40. | :56:42. | |
future generations will have to work longer still before they can | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
Ian Thomas is Chief Executive of Age Cymru. | :56:47. | :56:57. | |
Thank you for coming in. You talk to older people throughout Wales every | :56:58. | :57:08. | |
day. What is the scale of the problem? This is a big problem. I | :57:09. | :57:13. | |
think that story very well illustrates the dilemma these women | :57:14. | :57:20. | |
face at the moment. Many things said in that piece are important, | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
particularly the lack of communication and the need for these | :57:26. | :57:28. | |
better transitional arrangements. The state pension is by far the | :57:29. | :57:32. | |
biggest proportion of benefit that comes to people. It is a right | :57:33. | :57:39. | |
anyway. It is so important for people in later life. When you talk | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
about transitional arrangements, the Department of pensions said they are | :57:45. | :57:47. | |
not going to consider that but the point would be, this has been 20 | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
years in the making. It is not as if it has come out of the blue. That is | :57:53. | :57:58. | |
not strictly true because they accelerated the convergence of | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
pension ages very quickly at a much later stage. Many people feel very | :58:03. | :58:09. | |
aggrieved, older people we talk to feel very aggrieved that the | :58:10. | :58:12. | |
communication was poor around that and that many people have been left | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
in the lurch. Elizabeth's story is quite telling. So there are | :58:18. | :58:22. | |
thousands of women in Wales who were not aware of the changes? We think | :58:23. | :58:28. | |
even tens of thousands. We operate a helpline and we took 35,000 calls | :58:29. | :58:36. | |
between 2014-15. 25,000 's of those calls were concerning welfare and | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
health. We have done a lot of work with older people in order to get | :58:41. | :58:44. | |
their pension rights up there. We talked to a lady recently who | :58:45. | :58:50. | |
believes she is going to lose up to ?10,000 in pension benefits. That is | :58:51. | :58:54. | |
very significant for an older person. When you refer to the | :58:55. | :58:57. | |
transitional arrangements, what could be done? For those women in | :58:58. | :59:05. | |
particular who fall in that two-year period between 1951 and 1953, they | :59:06. | :59:10. | |
should be more money in the system to support them. We must not forget | :59:11. | :59:16. | |
as well that men and women between those two dates will have different | :59:17. | :59:20. | |
pension arrangements. One will be from the old system and one from the | :59:21. | :59:25. | |
new system. We are not trying to make value judgments about which is | :59:26. | :59:28. | |
the best system but they should be money to help women like Elizabeth. | :59:29. | :59:34. | |
Women born after the 6th of April 1951 will get this new settlement. | :59:35. | :59:40. | |
Let's assume that nothing you want to see happens, it goes along as | :59:41. | :59:44. | |
planned by the UK Government, what should those be doing if this is the | :59:45. | :59:52. | |
first day are hearing of it? I think anybody coming close to pension age | :59:53. | :59:56. | |
should get in touch with the Department for Work and Pensions. | :59:57. | :59:59. | |
They can ask for it pension statement so they can see to what | :00:00. | :00:03. | |
they are entitled. They can also ring our helpline. And we have got | :00:04. | :00:09. | |
skilled advisors to help people on that. It is really about no win, and | :00:10. | :00:14. | |
older people just need to know where they are going to sit. The current | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
arrangements, where there is a lot less money in the system, means a | :00:20. | :00:24. | |
lot of older people come to us and ask us for advice around pension | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
credits. In time, if the new system works, that will be alleviated, that | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
problem, which will mean more money in the economy for Wales and for | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
older people generally. I am assuming what you agree with what | :00:38. | :00:44. | |
Kate Bennett said about a lack of communication. Did the UK Government | :00:45. | :00:52. | |
get in touch with you? No. Subsequently, someone from the | :00:53. | :00:54. | |
Department for Work and Pensions contacted my office last week to | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
help distribute leaflets and information but it is a bit like | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
shutting the gate after the war -- horse has bolted because as we saw | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
this afternoon, many older people across Wales have ended up in some | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
dismay about where they sit financially. Thank you very much for | :01:13. | :01:14. | |
coming in. Don't forget to follow | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
all the latest on twitter Diolch am wylio, thanks | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
for watching. and Andrew Rossendale, thank you as | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
well. Back to Andrew. We were talking earlier about | :01:27. | :01:38. | |
divisions in the Conservative Party over Europe, but of course they're | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
not the only party that's split over Yesterday Jeremy Corbyn addressed | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
thousands at a rally for the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
in London, where he condemned Trident - a nuclear weapon | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
that his party still They reckon it is the biggest | :01:53. | :02:08. | |
anti-nuclear weapons March for a generation. Which means it is like | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
the Oscars. For people with causes. The civil service union, it is one | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
of the few unions against Trident instead of four Trident. We are | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
giving free food for the people. We are from Hare Krishna. Don't make | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
weapons, make food. We are here to draw attention to the links between | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
nuclear power and nuclear weapons. This country should not have gone in | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
for either of them but now we have the chance to get out of both of | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
them. The only good bomb is a Yager bomb. You might disagree this | :02:43. | :02:52. | |
morning. We have had a better time than anyone who has had to deal with | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
Trident. Also there, Caroline Lucas and Nicola Sturgeon. This lady had | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
an amazing knitted Jeremy Corbyn but the big draw was the man himself, | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
who has devoted his adult life to the staff. Many of us have marched | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
for many years and met for many years with the view that we bring | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
about a peaceful world by arguing peacefully for it, putting forward | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
the logical alternatives and showing two people the horror of war and the | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
total horror of nuclear weapons, should they ever be used by anybody. | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
A lot of Jeremy Corbyn's party agree with him. A survey of Labour members | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
published this week showed that more than two thirds of them want to | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
scrap Trident. The issue is that quite a lot of Labour MPs and trade | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
unions do not think that way. I think he would have something better | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
to do than being there along with the leaders of the Green Party, the | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
SNP and Plaid Cymru. There was a conference just a couple of days ago | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
with the GMB union who represent the workers in the shipyards, and they | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
are proud of their skills and worried about their future. They | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
want that sorted out quickly. That is a strong message to David Cameron | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
and to Jeremy Corbyn. This week, the Labour branch of the campaign for | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
nuclear disarmament was criticised after publishing a fact file that | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
appears to compare Trident with World War II gas chambers. I think | :04:23. | :04:29. | |
alluding to the gas chambers in this context is utterly grotesque. The | :04:30. | :04:32. | |
truth is that the gas chambers were never a form of deterrent, they were | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
never a method of war. They were not legitimate. In the 40s or at any | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
time. They were about genocide, about wiping out a race of people. | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
And to compare those things with the discussion that we are having here | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
about a nuclear deterrent, I think it is utterly grotesque. The task of | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
clearing it all up falls to the Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
Thornbury, reviewing party policy. Although that might not be done | :05:02. | :05:08. | |
before the Commons as to vote on new in Trident submarines later this | :05:09. | :05:15. | |
year. And reporting for the -- from the CND demo. Yesterday was supposed | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
to be Labour's day of campaigning for the European Union. But Mr | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
Corbyn went to this big rally and that is what has been in the news. | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
Discuss. Well, in his heart of hearts, it is not so much that | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
Jeremy Corbyn does not want Britain to be in the European Union, he just | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
does not want the European Union to exist. He thinks it is part of the | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
global liberal capitalist conspiracy, and you heard him in the | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
TV debates of the leadership contest, he does not really like the | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
ewe but he is boxed into a corner and he has to pretend that he does. | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
I was told at one stage she toyed with coming out against Britain's | :05:53. | :06:01. | |
membership. Another edition -- in the leadership campaign he made some | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
tortured remarks. I remember asking him to clarify his thinking and then | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
there was a slightly awkward statement in which he said he would | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
campaign for reform from within. And then later in the TV debates he was | :06:16. | :06:17. | |
very harsh against the European Union. He does not really like it | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
but he is boxed into a corner because for Jeremy Corbyn, there are | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
more important battles and the more important battle is Trident. He has | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
been a member of the CND since 1966 and that is what he thinks. He has | :06:31. | :06:37. | |
been entirely consistent on this. He's strike the Parliamentary Labour | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
Party. He does not go to the meetings. And he wants to get the | :06:42. | :06:47. | |
membership, this new membership in the country behind him, maybe even | :06:48. | :06:49. | |
the party conference behind him, and that is how he would get his way. | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
The macro that is absolutely right. If you talk to moderate figures in | :06:55. | :06:57. | |
the Labour Party, privately they will say that this is not actually | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
about Trident although there is no doubting Jeremy Corbyn's sincere | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
beliefs. A lot of this is about control of the Labour Party. I think | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
the problem for Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party as a whole is this | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
reinforces the impression of a party that is talking to itself. Of | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
course, all parties in opposition need to do that to some extent, but | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
with a view to renewing and coming out stronger. And that is not going | :07:23. | :07:25. | |
to be the outcome of this very divisive debate. What are your | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
thoughts on this? It is a typically caught the night thing to do, | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
because it is more focused on transforming the Labour Party than | :07:36. | :07:37. | |
on policy outcome. He cannot seriously believe that this country | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
is not going to renew Trident. He cannot seriously believe that the | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
other nuclear powers would do something similar. What matters most | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
to those around him is redefining what the Labour Party is | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
permanently. It is a catastrophe for the party because it is not as if | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
the political problem only kicks in if he successfully changes party | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
policy. Just having the debate on Trident is problematic in and of | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
itself. It was barmy in the 80s and to do it now when the number of | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
nuclear powers is higher and the number of people who are rational is | :08:12. | :08:14. | |
lower, it will strike voters as curious. Let's hope he goes to the | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
DLP tomorrow because it is always fun when he does. Speaking of that, | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
the American presidential elections went along with through in the | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
process yesterday. Yesterday was the Democratic primary in South Carolina | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
and Mrs Clinton won against Bernie Sanders and this is what she said | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
after her landslide victory. Despite what you hear, we do not need to | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
make America a great again. America has never stopped being great. | :08:42. | :08:54. | |
CHEERING. But we do need to make America whole | :08:55. | :09:02. | |
again. Instead of building walls, we need to be tearing down the | :09:03. | :09:08. | |
barriers. Hillary Clinton in South Carolina. They move on super | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
Tuesday, this coming Tuesday. I would suggest that the significance | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
of that is twofold. That is a woman who thinks she has won the | :09:18. | :09:25. | |
nomination and she probably has. Secondly, she is turning her | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
attention to Donald Trump because make America great again is his | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
campaign slogan. She thinks she is up against Trump in the election. | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
All the indications are that she has won of the Democratic nomination. | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
Marco Rubio could win the Republican nomination but it would take quite a | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
circuitous route, maybe going to the convention floor. Which it has not | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
done in my lifetime. And you can imagine how poisonous that would be | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
for the party. I think it will be Hillary Clinton versus someone, | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
probably versus Donald Trump. And I think the thing I take away from it | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
is that as farcical as Trump is, as much of a blowhard as he is, and as | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
crazy as this memory campaign is, it shows that a country can succeed | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
despite its politics. And America has been doing this for decades. In | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
the Texas debate, Mr Trump did not do so well. He was attacked on both | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
sides from Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz, the junior senator for Texas. | :10:24. | :10:26. | |
Although Trump must still be the favourite, he is not yet at the | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
unstoppable shoo-in that Mrs Clinton has become. He is not unstoppable. | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
Make no mistake, there are many within the party machine who would | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
like to stop them. There could well be a very aggressive operation to | :10:40. | :10:45. | |
stop them becoming the candidate. So far, it has not worked. There is an | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
important point to make about Trump from a global point of view. We sit | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
here and say, what a terrifying prospect, but remember, he will not | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
be a democratically elected dictator if he ends up as president. Congress | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
will have a lot of power to fetter him, even if he wants to build that | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
wall he will have to get a vote through and that is very unlikely. | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
He could still do a lot of damage as president, even with Congress | :11:10. | :11:12. | |
against you. You are a powerful person. But Marco Rubio has finally | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
got a good line of attack on him. If you had not got that $200 million | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
from your father, you would be selling watches in Times Square. But | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
it was only two weeks ago that he was duffed up by Chris Christie, who | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
has now endorsed Donald Trump. And he does not like Marco Rubio. | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
President Obama said the other day, I am absolutely convinced that the | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
American people will not vote for Donald Trump as president. And you | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
must assume he is right. We have learned two things about Hillary | :11:44. | :11:46. | |
Clinton in 2008 and this time around, she will probably make an | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
excellent president but she is a deeply flawed candidate. You assume | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
that she should beat Trump as the nominee but we have seen some flaws | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
in her as a candidate. And maybe he would manage to beat. This could be | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
the last opportunity for the Republicans. There is no Democratic | :12:06. | :12:13. | |
frontrunner since McGovern in 1972 with bigger negatives than Hillary | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
Clinton. The White House is convinced that this would be a | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
victory if it was Trump against Clinton. I wonder where grand and | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
impressive reputation comes from because from an outsider's | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
perspective, the bullet points on her CV were messing up Hillary care | :12:28. | :12:36. | |
in 1993, which caused the Republican clean sweep in the Congress, and the | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
second was blowing a 20 point lead over Barack Obama at the end of 2007 | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
in the primary campaign. She was an OK Secretary of State but nothing | :12:48. | :12:49. | |
world is changing. To have the reputation she does as a very grand, | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
conquering figure on the basis of that career seems overdone. We will | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
leave it there. If Ted Cruz cannot win on super Tuesday, he is | :13:02. | :13:09. | |
finished. If Trump is at all in the polls, Marco Rubio is finished. -- | :13:10. | :13:12. | |
if Trump is ahead in the polls. The Daily Politics is back | :13:13. | :13:14. | |
on BBC2 at midday tomorrow, and we'll be back here | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
next Sunday at 11am. Remember if it's Sunday, | :13:19. | :13:20. | |
it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:21. | :13:26. |