26/06/2016 Sunday Politics Wales

Here we are on Westminster Green. The Shadow Foreign Secretary has

been sacked. The Shadow Cabinet is resigning at the rate of one an hour

this morning. Is it all over for Mr Corbyn? Not at all. Jeremy isn't

going anywhere. He was elected nine months ago. The biggest mandate of

any political leader in our country and he isn't going anywhere. What

does he do if half the Cabinet will walk out on him today? He will

replace them. What is so disappointing in this is that we

have no government at the moment. Those promises that were made in the

referendum have been reneges upon almost on an hourly basis. The

country is in a difficult position now is the time for the opposition

to hold together. Hilary Benn says Mr Corbyn is not the leader and you

cannot win an election with him. I think they should calm down and

listen to their members. Who trust polls any more? I have seen polls

saying we are on the path for victory. Calm down and

And the confidence of the Parliamentary Labour Party? People

who are softer or party members. I am saying to all members of the

Shadow Cabinet, respect the wishes of the members. In that way, we can

hold together and win the next election. This is all about one of

the basic principles of our party, solidarity. The membership may not

be representative of the wider Labour family in terms of labour

voters. Labour voters on Thursday did not listen to Jeremy Corbyn or

the wider membership? That is true. We argued in the campaign that we

should campaign for remain and reform. We lost by a close margin.

Hilary Benn was the leader in the Shadow Cabinet of that campaign. We

did everything to support it but we lost. We have to respect that. It

does not mean that those people who voted to leave the European Union

will translate that Broad against Labour in the future. Every

electoral test Jeremy Corbyn has faced he has one. Apart from the

referendum. That was on pole at -- one issue, it was not party

political. Jeremy was told he has to deliver two things, Labour voters

and young people. Seven out of ten Labour voters voted for Remain. He

delivered. Take London out of that and remember the fact that young

people did not vote mate in large numbers and it can hardly be a

success. If he's going to fight back, how does he do it today. I

have heard to Michael Moore Shadow ministers resigning before we came

on air. How does he do it? He puts forward the policy programme that we

need to negotiate a better deal with Europe on. He shows leadership in

that way, which is doing, and he mobilises the membership to go to

the Labour supporters to back that programme. We have got to listen to

the Labour supporters that did not Broad for the remain campaign and

listen to their views. Lots of that is about communities being left

behind, the issue he has been highlighting for the last decade.

Does anyone like to Jeremy Corbyn for a lead on this no? 24 hours ago,

maybe more, he was saying we should trigger Article 50 immediately, but

within 12 hours, he was saying, maybe we should not do that? What we

want to know is what the deal will be with Europe. What Jeremy will be

doing with the rest of the Labour Party, the rank and file in

particular, is shaping that the land campaigning around it. We will be

hoping that in the absence of government leadership we will be

able to get the best deal we can. Our relationship with the European

leaders, and social and democratic parties, has been enhanced by

Jeremy's leadership. We think we can negotiate a better deal than this

government. What would you say to any shadow ministers watching who

are thinking of following in the foot steps of Hilary Benn, resigning

and triggering a leadership crisis? I know how disappointed people are

at the loss of the European referendum but now is the time that

we hold together. There is no government in place. We've got to

provide that leadership. Listen to your party members who voted in

overwhelming numbers for Jeremy nine months ago. Solidarity is key. Some

people have been telling us that you have been on leadership movers. No.

I will never stand for leadership of the Labour Party. If Jeremy stands

for another leadership election I will cheer his campaign. I think the

party members will like him again. It is unnecessary. The next few

months are key for the Labour Party. We can lead the country but we need

to hold together. If Jeremy Corbyn was to fall on his sword tomorrow...

He is not. You would not stand? He is not. And any circumstances would

you stand as leader of the Labour Party? Jeremy is not falling on his

sword. He is not going anywhere, and if you did, I would not be standing.

Let's be clear, he is not going anywhere. Over the last 48 hours, on

-- over 200,000 people have signed a petition to support Jeremy Corbyn.

His new style of caring, compassionate, honest politics, I

think it has a grip in the country. As a result, we have one on every

electoral test on it comes to a party campaign and we will do it at

the next general election -- the next general election. Why has part

of your shadow team been going around Labour MPs canvassing support

for John McDonnell to be leader? She has not. I am told she has. She has

not, but if she has, let me make this clear, she has not spoken to me

about this. I am not standing as leader of the Labour Party. She is

part of my team, as a loyal supporter of Jeremy, and has been

until now. If she's phoning around, I think that is wrong. I think it is

disinformation. I do not want to blame the media for this. Some in

the party have tried to divide and rule all the time. It is never going

to happen. Jeremy and I have been close friends for 30 years, the best

political allies. I will always have his back. If he has to stand for

another leadership election, I will be his campaign manager. If he does

not stand again, there are no circumstances in which you would

stand for leader of the Labour Party? Norway. He is going nowhere.

You have said that, I am not arguing. I am not standing and he is

not going. He was elected with an overwhelming mandate. So your

colleague, if she's doing it, she should stop? She is not. She would

not do it without asking me. She is wasting her time? She would not do

it without asking me, it is a myth. Propaganda against us. I wonder

where that would come from? John McDonnell, thank you for being with

us. Thank you to Andrew Marr. This is now the Sunday Politics, coming

live from Westminster. The sun is now coming out, and what a week,

what a date has been in politics, from the moment the referendum

result was confirmed, events have leapt forward at an alarming speed.

Ellie Price has been watching it unfolds. The British people have

spoken and the answer is we are out. It is a victory for ordinary people,

decent people, it is a victory against the big merchant banks,

against big businesses and against big politics. I will do everything I

can as Prime Minister to steady the ship over the coming weeks and

months. But I do not think it would be right for me to try and be the

captain that steers our country to its next destination. We are well

prepared for this. Her Majesty's Treasury and the Bank of England

have engaged extensive contingency planning and the Chancellor and I

have remained in close contact, including through the night at this

point. I am fully aware of how this series and dramatic this moment is

politically. There is no way of predicting all the political

consequences of this event. Especially for the UK. It is a

significant and material change in circumstances, and it is therefore a

statement of the obvious that the option of a second referendum must

be on the table. It is on the table. It was the morning that changed

everything. But the day belonged to the Leave campaign, even if not

everyone agreed. Shame on you, Boris, you are a parasite. The man

who could well be next try minister made a victory speech with a

conciliatory tone. To those who may be anxious, at home or abroad, this

does not mean that the United Kingdom would be in anyway less

united. Nor does it mean it would be any less European. I want to speak

to the millions of people, directly to the millions of people, who did

not thought for this outcome. Especially young people. You may

feel that this decision in some way involves pulling up a drawbridge, or

any kind of isolationism, because I think the very opposite. Whoever

becomes the new Conservative leader will have to find a way of dealing

with the opposites in their own party. The morning after the night

before, Tory MPs insisted they were already looking forward. I am not

really interested in the sense that the deep Windsor in the real world.

I am not interested in the party. For the first time since the 1970s I

have seen people speak in a way that I had not seen in the last 40 years,

Colin, get these immigrants out, calling me a traitor. I have never

seen such unpleasantness unleashed. We have got to heal. That is where

we have got to do the work, the restoration we have to do. Is this

the moment the Conservatives stop banging on about Europe? I suppose

it might be. Do you fancy yourself as leader? I am not going to make

any decision about that until we have rested over the weekend, we

have had a chance to speak to colleagues. I would not rule

anything out. Only of my colleagues thought there was a chance of

reaching over from that Leave side to the other side of the party in

what would be a healing process. I hope you have a woman in the final

two. It is important in 21st century Britain. Whether it is near one of

my brilliant female colleagues, that will be for the party to decide.

Plenty of talk about the future of the Tory leadership at Westminster.

They will be a meeting on Monday of the influential backbench 1922

Committee to discuss that. It will not be the only meeting of MPs. The

Parliamentary Labour Party will be having a catch up with Jeremy

Corbyn. That can often be acrimonious and Mandy could

be the most acrimonious yet. Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn watched on when

David Cameron resigned, but his leadership was called into question

by some of his own MPs. He should not escape the result, they say and

there may be a motion of no-confidence. If we have the

prospect of an early general election, these are serious times,

and we have to make sure that we have leadership that can a chance of

reaching beyond our corner. It is not clear that are currently the

ship can even mobilise our core support, looking at the results we

have had so far. Yesterday Jeremy Corbyn sought to confront is

critics, announcing a review of the party's immigration policy and

answering questions about his leadership. If there is a leadership

contest, William and again? Yes, I am here, thank you.

APPLAUSE I ran a campaign which travelled the

length and breadth of this country. I pointed out there were

difficulties with the European Union, that is obvious, but I also

pointed out that we would achieve better social protections, better

levels of employment, investment, in my view, if we remained part of the

European Union. It was not enough. This morning that Shadow Foreign

Secretary, Hilary Benn, was sacked by Jeremy Corbyn, after plans

emerged to coordinate front bench resignations. After that the Shadow

Health Secretary, Heidi Alexander, resigned. It is understood up to

have the Shadow Cabinet could follow. The ripple effect of the

referendum result is still being felt. Westminster may look the same

on the outside, but politics here has changed forever. Our panel of

the best and the brightest are here to help this page as the events of

the last few days. I think the got the referendum along -- wrong.

Isabel Oakeshott, Janan Ganesh, Helen Lewis. Let's start with

Labour, the breaking story this morning. Hilary Benn fired, Shadow

Cabinet ministers resigning. John McDonnell telling me that Jeremy

Corbyn will fight on and that he is never going to be a candidate for

the Labour leadership. Reaction. It is fair to say there is scepticism

among Labour MPs about the words of John McDonnell. This has been

brewing since the referendum result came in. Labour MPs feel the Jeremy

Corbyn's heart was not in the campaign. They feel they are in tune

with Labour activists, not necessarily Labour voters. They are

very pro -- EU. They want to act before the national executive

committee may change the rules. There is a possibility that if there

is another leadership election it will not be automatic that Jeremy

Corbyn to get on the ballot. The Kubot came there. If Jeremy Corbyn

is going to fight on but is facing the resignation of up to 50% of his

Shadow Cabinet today, we do not know, some have gone, how does he

fight on? With great difficulty. By Monday you could end up in a

scenario where Jeremy Corbyn cannot populate his Shadow Cabinet and the

second year shadow ministerial positions. If you cannot deliver the

numbers to form a viable opposition it becomes difficult for him to

remain. During my lifetime the two great political parties have taken

it in turn to meltdown. Labour did it in the 1980s, the Tories did it

in early 2000. It is unprecedented to have both melting down at the

same time. The implications for government are obvious. John Kerry

is visiting soon. It is a measure of how noticed across the world our

disorder in public life is at the moment. The referendum has been a

massive international story, not just a European one. John McDonnell

says there are plenty of other Labour MPs ready to join the Shadow

Cabinet and Jeremy Corbyn has the support of the membership. Clearly

Jeremy Corbyn thinks he can brazen it out. The big question is what is

Tom Watson going to do, his deputy? He is a big figure within the party.

He is trying to make his way back from Glastonbury. It looks like his

mobile phone is about to run out of juice. Here's a couple of hours to

wait until he can get the train back. Total pandemonium. On any

other day, this meltdown in the Labour Party would be the biggest

Tory, but to a lot of people today, it feels like a sideshow to the key

question is, what happens after Brexit and two will be the next

Prime Minister? Who will be the next Prime Minister?

I think he would be a fool to make a prediction. It is hard to see

someone being able to come from relative obscurity as David Cameron

did, in order to join the front rank of politicians. The question really

is if everyone gets behind someone like Theresa May, because she is

seen as the only viable big beast who could take on Boris. Norris was

the face of the winning side. There will be a stop Boris candidates, I'm

sure, among MPs. Is that Theresa May? I'm flattered you're still

interested in my opinion, having got the prediction on the referendum so

horribly wrong. I don't see how a country which has just voted to

leave the European Union can have a Prime Minister who believes it is a

bad idea because the Prime Minister has to negotiate the terms of exit.

I would say the Prime Minister, chancel and Foreign Secretary all

have to be committed believers now. They have all got to be on the same

page. That is almost certainly right, isn't it? Yes, I always

thought Boris would be a shoo-in particularly with the accelerated

timetable the Prime Minister has given this leadership contest. I am

having a moment of doubt as to whether Boris is a shoo-in. It is

strange that in the last 24 hours he doesn't seem to have been on

manoeuvres like so many of his colleagues. He has been flat-footed,

we haven't seen much of him, and already we have seen quite strong

signs of a backlash against Boris. I wouldn't say he is a shoo-in. But if

it comes down to the final two, and goes to the country, he wins, does

he not? All of the polling suggests he is wildly popular with the

members, however that breaks down in an interesting way. He's incredibly

popular when you want to say who do you have a beer with? During a

national crisis, he scores less well and people might feel this is a time

of national crisis but he's very hard to beat among the membership.

We thought we would get a rest after the referendum, that is never going

to happen. You may currently be

unfamiliar with Article 50 You won't be alone, with half

the civil service scrabbling to read It is actually an amendment to the

Treaty of Maastricht. But given it's the key that

unlocks our membership of the European Union,

chances are we will all become very familiar with it over

the next months and years. The UK will be the first country

to trigger Article 50, and it has been left deliberately

vague so that each member state can decide how

and when it wants to leave. As soon as it is invoked,

it opens a two-year window However, David Cameron has

effectively paused the process until the Conservative leadership

contest is over. Once Article 50 is invoked,

the terms of negotiations will be set by our 27 counterparts

in the European Commission. What will be the substance

of the talks? Our budget contributions will be

discussed, as will transition arrangements for expats

and cross-border companies. It is also likely to cover how EU

financial programmes in the UK are phased out,

and whether there should be transitional arrangements and rights

conferred by the EU, But a new trade deal would have

to be arranged separately, could take significantly longer,

and will require ratification from each of the 27

national parliaments. Once a British exit deal has been

hammered out, it will be put to the European Council

and will need support from a qualified majority,

at least 20 of the 27 members, If a deal is reached,

it will then be subject to a vote If a deal cannot be reached,

the two-year period can be extended, but only through a unanimous vote

of the council. There we are, much more of that to

come in the weeks ahead. Earlier I spoke to the former

Labour Prime Minister, Tony Blair. I began by asking him if he accepted

Thursday's result that we are now out of the European Union

for the forseeable future. I accept the result was to get out

of Europe, that is clear. What do we do now? What I also think is that we

have got to be very careful now to take our time and work out what the

consequences are of exit and what our new relationship with Europe

will be. Here is where I think it is important we don't rush this

process, there is no need to rush it. I think in the next two or three

months, the present by Minister has got an important role to play in

shaping how that negotiating framework will proceed, and I think

it is important for the country to see what are the actual

consequences. What's the reality of leaving, and what possible options

are there for new relationships. The leaders of Europe, including

President Jean-Claude Juncker, have said there is no point waiting, just

apply for Article 15 out, start the process, let's get on with it. What

do you say to that? I understand their frustration and dismay at the

result in Britain but it is not in the interests of Europe or Britain

to rush this. We are dealing with vast consequences, and we have got

to take it very carefully. I have worked very closely with Angela

Merkel, I know her very well. She is a very sensible person. I mean, she

has those good German qualities of practical common sense and realism,

and she will want to do this, I think, in a way that gets the best

for Europe and indeed for Britain because people want to retain that

relationship with Britain. I don't know how much room for manoeuvre

these people that have led the Leave campaign have. But I think they also

have a big responsibility to help our country get itself through what

is going to be an agonising and highly complicated process of

defining a new relationship with Europe. The odd thing about this

referendum, when you think about it, it's like saying to someone, right,

you are going to swap your house. You know where you live but you will

swap it for another house. And right now, we can give you two people, you

cannot see that the house but we can give you two people who tell you

what they think. One says this house will be fantastic, great for you,

and the other says this house is structurally on sound, you will hate

it. We have taken the decision to swap homes, if you like, without

having seen what the other thing looks like. Over this period of

time, we will see what it looks like. We will then get right into

the detail because the detail matters. For example financial

services, if we don't have the EU passport for our financial services,

what does that mean for the City of London? You could get thousands of

jobs going so how do you preserve it? What does the car industry do?

We have hundreds of thousands of jobs dependent on it. I think the

detail will really matter and we need to take our time over this so

that the country also carries on being engaged in a debate about what

this really means. But what would you advise Boris Johnson and Michael

Gove to go for in terms of the overall relationship? The details

will take a long while, I understand that, but broadly what kind of

relationship would you advise them to have going forward? I think one

that preserves as much as we can of our access to the market in Europe

because that is essential, I mean half of our trade is with Europe,

but secondly which allows us at least some decisions that will be

made that have a direct bearing on Britain. One of the things that so

curious about this whole process is that we are an independent country,

we are an independent country now. I say to people, I think the ten years

I had as by Minister, I cannot think of a single decision that Europe

said to me I had to make or I couldn't make other than those to do

with Europe specifically. We will now be in this new relationship with

Europe, we have got to work out what is in our interests. We have got to

understand something as well, I think it is very important about

where the country is today. I think it is deeply divided. The Leave camp

won, but 48% voted Remain. I think there was a lot of dismay and anger

among that 48%. I think a lot of young people particularly feel their

future has been changed in a way they profoundly disagree with. And

so, if there is a desire in the Leave camp to try to bring the

country back together, if there is a maturity there in the politics of

Leave, we have also got to show a majority for the politics of Remain

and work out how we do this best for the country but that argues for a

negotiating process which allows the country at every stage to see, this

is the reality. It is no longer about claims and counterclaims. Do

you rule out another referendum? As I'm looking at it here, I can't see

how we would do that. You will have a reality to test yourself against.

For example, in the last few days there has been this vast crash in

the financial markets, something like $3 trillion has been wiped out

financial markets globally, the pound has obviously fallen

dramatically, but maybe studies itself in the days to come. The

British people and the Europeans need to see that reality. Maybe as

we get into it, there are companies that say, we are perfectly happy, we

can live with the new arrangement, others say, we can't. If we finally

see the structure, what is in the new house, we see the house we will

now move into outside the EU, should that go for a referendum? As I say,

I cannot see how you would go through the mechanics of another

referendum now, but on the other hand there will be a lot of people

in the country that say, let's have a look at this. Parliament will want

to look at it. Remember, the one thing, again what was strange and

unsatisfactory about the referendum campaign is the devil really is in

the detail with this. I was trying to say to people, if you are

deciding whether to join the European Union, that is one kind of

debate, but when you are deciding whether to leave after four decades

of membership, with intricate relationships, we need to see that.

We need to see for example who will win that battle in French politics

between those who say the border should go back to Dover now or the

border will stay in Calais. All of these things I think are low us now

to be, now we are going to see the new home, now we will look at it and

test it, we will be going round it, we will be seeing what it really

means. And so in a sense, what I'm saying is we have a divided country

but I think there is the possibility of bringing people back together if

we are sensible about it and don't let our dismay on either side of

this argument get the better of our judgment. Why did Remain lose? I

don't think that is very hard to work out. You could buy the wake of

this type of referendum anywhere in Europe at the moment and you would

have the potential for the result to be the same. One of the things I

think is important for us as we go into this European negotiation, it

is Europe can take one of two views. They can say, get out as fast as

possible. The other thing they could do and maybe they should do when

they reflect about it, if we approach this negotiation sensibly,

is to think the British had their referendum but actually we have the

same strains of opinion and the same anxieties in our own countries,

let's think about how we deal with those and let's not look upon the

Brits as outliers. They were always difficult in Europe, now we have got

rid of the difficult people. No, every country is anxious about the

effect of globalisation on jobs and so on. I think it is not hard to see

why Leave won. Personally I think it is a very serious mistake for us but

there it is. It's not hard to see how they win. You still haven't told

me why they won. Because when you take a dissatisfaction with the

status quo politically and anxiety about flat-lining incomes, worries

about immigration particularly, and immigration has always been... Let's

be very clear, you and I go back 30, 40 years. Immigration has always

been an issue. Where you mobilise opinion around it, particularly when

the British media are prepared to take your platform and run with it,

a referendum in those circumstances is going to be a tough thing. But

immigration has never been bigger and a lot of the British people felt

not so much about the numbers coming in, as it is very well for these

politicians to let the people in but they are not building the schools

and hospitals. They are not building the public services that we need if

these numbers are to go and they felt the British political elite on

the left and right were not listening to them and they may have

been right. I thought my last election campaign

on immigration. I know what a strong issue it is. But the answer to the

problems and the pressures from Eastern Europe in particular,

because I think the Eastern European is make a good contribution to this

country. You did not build the houses for them coming in, neither

did the last Labour government, and this government has not built

enough? That was the reaction. I would suggest it is also why the

Labour Party could not mobilise its vote for a massive turnout for movie

Mac. -- Remain. You were the man that made the Labour Party love the

EU. That is true. We invested massively in these communities, in

education and health care care particularly. What not in housing?

Housing is a real issue. We have to take it seriously. The right way to

deal with it is to have a housing policy for the population as a

whole. The other thing about immigration, it all gets lumped

together. I think a lot of people's anxieties about immigration were not

centred around those from Europe of those from outside Europe, however,

I do except there were communities, and when people see their

communities changing around them as a result of an influx of people, you

have got to deal with that. Yes, I agree, but the answer is not to get

out of Europe. Would your side perhaps have won if Labour had not

fought such a half hearted campaign? I have made my comments on the

campaign. What is important for us is to make sure that our own people

understand why we were so passionate about staying in Europe. None of the

problems that our voters face, problems and pressures on housing,

jobs, health care, education, they will might be resolved by leaving

Europe. One of the things that will also happen over the months to come

is that as this reality, I keep seeing, now you can test this by

reality, as that sinks in, there will be lots of Labour voters that

realised this was not a smart move that the country has made. This

morning, after the sacking of Hilary Benn, a prominent supporter of movie

Mike -- Remain in the Shadow Cabinet, there seems to be amounting

to inside the Parliamentary Labour Party against Jeremy Corbyn. Should

there be at two? I was coming on this programme to talk about Europe.

-- a coup. I understand why you have to ask me. I know nothing more than

I have read in the newspapers and seen on in years. This is for the

Parliamentary party. It is not helpful for me to intervene, so I am

not going to. The former Prime Minister Tony

Blair, speaking to me But not about Labour's mounting

troubles today. They have just got more serious. Another Labour MP,

Ivan Lewis, who is running for M -- for me than Manchester, has called

on Jeremy Corbyn to step down. -- for mayor.

Now Jo Coburn is here with us this morning.

She's high up on the rooftops, casting her eye over events

Events are so fast moving politically, the next Prime Minister

in the Conservative Party leadership, and what happens to the

UK after Brexit. Let's get some reaction from a former cabinet

minister. With me now is the former

Cabinet Minister Francis Maude, who was a Europe minister under

Margaret Thatcher and negotiated You never made it clear before the

referendum what side you were wrong. Can you tell us no? I am not going

to see which way I voted until May direct my memoirs many years from

now. You surprised by the result? I thought it would be a narrow victory

for Remain but there was lots of anxiety around. My concern is that

this is not a binary thing. The referendum result? The referendum

clearly was, and it has to be, all or nothing, yes or no. The reality

is, for quite some time, we have been a 65% per participant in the

European Union. We are not part of the currency, or the Schengen

agreement. At the end of this process, we should not be a

nonparticipant. Boris Johnson said yesterday we are European nation. We

will continue to be. The result of this cannot be pulling up the

drawbridge into some sort of isolation. That is the language

you're using, but the fact is the UK has voted to leave the European

Union. Negotiations will start. They should not be rushed. They should

not be rushed? No, Tony Blair was right when he said it is neither in

Britain's or in the EU's interest for it to be rushed. There is a

debate in the EU. People are talking about what happened in Britain on

Thursday, but that is not a completely unique British

phenomenon. But no one else has left the EU. There is anxiety about the

direction of the EU in other countries, for example, the

Netherlands. When I was doing European stuff 24 years ago, that

was the most deeply pro-EU country that there was. That debate within

the EU that someone spotted, Donald Tusk has spotted it, Angela Merkel

has spotted it, that carrying on and assuming that this rigid doctrine,

one size fits all, that approach, assuming that is the only way you

can go, if that continues to be the case, there is a severe danger that

the EU will spring apart. You think this could trigger a series of

events that could be the beginning of the end for the EU? Unlettered

reacts in a grown-up, sensible way. Why would it do that? I have heard

European leaders saying that actually we have to see Great

Britain, the United Kingdom, heard by leaving the EU, or what signal

does it send to the one else? The signal it would send is it as an

organisation which is willing to self harm in order to protect the

very narrow, rigid approach to how countries collaborate and work

together. Britain is the fifth biggest economy in the world, the

biggest trading partner with our partners in the EU. To do something

which damaged our economy deliberately would actually damage

the European Union as well. Talking of harm... Europe would pretty soon

start sneezing if we caught the cold. What about the Conservative

Party? Lots of people were shocked when David Cameron resigned on

Friday morning? Where you? I was disappointed. He has been an

excellent Prime Minister and has led some excellent reforms. I sat round

the Shadow Cabinet table with him for ten years and I am full of

admiration for the leadership they give the party. It has to be his

decision. I understand his view that the negotiations about the new

arrangements of Britain's relationship with Europe has to be

undertaken by someone who has been in the campaign. Like Boris Johnson?

I have worked closely with Boris, Michael Gove, I am full of

admiration for him. There are some very serious candidates. They would

give the right leadership in the country and the party. Is Boris

Johnson unstoppable? I have no idea, I am not in the House of Commons, so

I do not know. In terms of advice, let's imagine Boris Johnson and

Michael Gove are part of the negotiating team once there is a

leadership contest. What would you say to them? The starting point, so

far as economic relationship with our current partners in the European

Union is concerned, the starting point should be that others need to

show why we should not be able to trade on the same kind of bases that

we do at the moment. Bielik Norway, or Switzerland? Nothing has to be

quite so one size fits all as you're suggesting. There is no single

model. Britain is the fifth biggest economy in the world. It is a

different kind of relationship. It has always had a different kind of

relationship within the European Union. This will be another

different relationship in the future, unique and distinctive. When

people start saying, of course, Britain cannot be part of the single

financial market, the answer is, why not? You need to show why. Everyone

has been saying that Europe as well as Britain benefits from being in

the single financial market. Why would you want to commit an act of

self harm to deny that? You sound as though it will be smooth and

straightforward, Britain will get what it once in terms of the

benefits of being in the EU, despite having left, and none of the things

that the goal voted on, freedom of movement for example? Freedom of

movement is coming under criticism, absolute freedom of movement, as it

is framed at the moment, it has been coming under criticism from many

parts of the political spectrum, both in Britain and across the EU.

What was part of their original deal was freedom of movement of labour,

people moving to where they had jobs. That is different from what we

have seen at the moment, which is what is cause such concern, not just

in Britain but in other parts of the European Union. I'll do surprise but

the reaction of European Union, -- European Union leaders, foreign

ministers, who are saying that this is not an amicable divorce, telling

Britain to get on with it? It depends on who you talk to. Donald

Tusk has not been speaking in that kind of language. Angela Merkel has

not been speaking in that kind of language. It depends on who you

listen to. There is no sense for European neighbours to be acting in

a way that deliberately harms Britain because, by harming Britain,

they harm themselves. If you inflict deliberate damage and your nearest

neighbour, your biggest trading partner, that has a blowback effect

on them as well. When tempers cool, I understand they are irritated by

all of this, but when it comes down, and people start to think about what

is in their collective self-interest, then I think you

start to get a more rational, more sensible approach, which does not

need to be full of hostility and anger. Have you been approached to

be part of the negotiating team? I have not. Would you say yes? You

have had experience and you're familiar with negotiating within the

EU. I am not pitching for that. I have left the front line in politics

and I am happily engaged in a new phase of my life. But it really

matters that we get this right and I would be happy to advise whoever is

the new government, if they wanted to hear advice. Should the key

negotiating team be full of people who campaigned to leave? I think it

needs to be pretty broad. This was not a massive vote. It was decisive

and clear, there is no room for argument, but it was not a massive

vote to leave. I think the new government and Prime Minister will

need to take his or her role as leader of the nation as seriously as

the role as leader of the party. Francis Maude, thank you very much.

Back to you, Andrew. I have the words of Ivan Lewis, the Labour MP

who is running for the mayor of Manchester. It is clear Jeremy

Corbyn cannot lead us back to government and there is a real risk

we will suffer worse election result than in 2015. Ivan Lewis, MP. No

more shadow ministers have resigned so far. Maybe some of them having

second thoughts after they watched interview with John McDonnell. I am

joined now by one of the Conservative's leading Leave

campaigner, Liam Fox. What is your road map for getting out of the EU?

We need to have the establishment of the unit in Whitehall, which I would

like to see Derek Rae answerable to Number 10 rather than the Foreign

Office of the Treasury, to begin discussions with our European

partners ahead of what would be a trigger for Article 50. Presumably

when we have a new Prime Minister in place. You go along with the

existing prime ministers's timetable, that Article 50 begins

the formal Brexit process? You do not want a trigger that before the

autumn? No. It makes sense to decide our position in the UK. We have to

put mechanics in place, increase the size of the Foreign Office,

established a trade department. We will want to see as members of

Parliament tomorrow what work has been done in preparation for a

Brexit. This idea that no contingency planning was done is

preposterous. That would have been responsible. We will want to see

what work has been done and we will have to get such a unit under way so

that there is no vacuum being created. I have heard some people in

the Leave campaign saying it could be later than the autumn that we

begin the formal process. The end of the year, the beginning of the new

Year. That would be difficult. You would be looking to get an exit from

the European Union at the beginning of the year. The financial year of

the European Union is at the start of the calendar year. That would

bring added complications. You want to get it tidied up. We want to see

a process that means we can leave the European Union on the 1st of

January 2019. That seems like a reasonable timetable. European

leaders, particularly those in Brussels, the president of the

commission and so on, they do not want to wait. They want to start the

discussion is now. They may not want to agree to your ideal formal

discussions therefore we present the Lisbon Treaty button. -- informal

talks. Article 50 only gets triggered when there is a letter or

a clearer definition. It is only Britain that can trigger it? Yes.

What the European bureaucrats on, the ones that are on elected and not

answer book to anyone, their attitude is different to the

Chancellor of Germany, who herself is facing real action next year. You

will see an increasing split between the on elected bureaucrats with no

one to answer two and politicians with real economies to manage. You

are confident we can get meaningful, informal discussions to sketch out

some principles, not necessarily details, this side of triggering

Article 50? Yes and we need to begin soon

because there will be a willingness from our elected parliament to be in

those discussions. The brothel -- Brussels bureaucracy regard as

impertinent to wanted to have leave the European Union, but we have got

to do it quickly because we have got to show we have some momentum in

this. Otherwise, if we create a vacuum it is a recipe for

instability. Who should head up our negotiations? That is up to the

Prime Minister but I think there needs to be a mixture of people who

understand the views of trade experts... But who should lead,

Michael Gove? He is an excellent suggestion, we also have Peter

Lilley, who was involved in one of the most recent trade rounds, but we

need to get it under way and Parliament needs to see what

preparatory work needs to be done. Since we voted to leave, Nigel

Farage has said it was a mistake to promise more money for the NHS. Dan

Hannan, Tory MP, has said the leave campaign never promised a radical

decline in immigration. So continuing with the Department of

honesty, can we now agree that there is an extra 350 million quid a week

to spend on other public services? An extra 10 billion per year, but of

course that is only available once we have actually left the European

Union, which will be 2019, and those decisions have to be taken by the

Government of the day. That will be very different from the one we have

now. It is a long time in the future but what the Leave campaign, and

what people didn't grasp was that it wasn't an election, they were

reluctant to give future governments greater choice over the actions they

could pursue if they wanted. So I will log that the 350 is more like

160. Will the Tory department whittle down the leadership hopefuls

to a short list of two by the time the Parliament across the road goes

off to the summary says on July the 21st? It is a decision that will be

taken by the 1922 committee. I think we should have a timetable similar

to the one we had in 2005, not least because our party membership will be

involved in the decision. What was that timetable? We didn't have the

MPs' ballot until after the party conference so people could see a

range of candidates they might have. So you would like a beauty parade at

the Tory party conference in the first week of October that includes

all of the Tory candidates? That is what we did last time, that was the

system that produced David Cameron's election. Then the party... Know,

first the House of Commons would have to reduce five or six

candidates down to two, then the party and the country would have to

decide who is right so the Prime Minister may be there until

November. Potentially, under that timetable. I don't think that has

huge drawbacks because we need to get that period of the pre-talks

under way, then you have the new Prime Minister and can trigger

article 50. Is it realistic to have a lame duck government from the end

of June until the beginning of November? My view is that having

that period does not make a huge difference to the process, but it

might make a better choice for leadership and a better process for

the party. And if it is a beauty parade at the party conference,

William Fox be part of that beauty parade? I don't know, I haven't

decided yet. I am thinking about it, I will make a decision once I have

spoken to my colleagues in Parliament this week. And if you're

hat is not in the ring, do you have a favourite you would support? I

might have and you will be among the first million to know, Andrew! Thank

you for that, Liam Fox. Well, Friday was a

pretty dramatic day. But Thursday was also

a pretty dramatic night. Adam Fleming once again

behind the scenes at It is referendum night, so call in

someone who has done it all before. How does this compared to presenting

it in 1975? I cannot remember anything about 1975 except my hair

was brown and not white. What were you doing in 1975? Were you born? I

was a twinkle in my father's eye. We are going to have to do things the

old-fashioned way, wait for the results to come in one by one. Early

to declare Sunderland went Leave's away by more than they had expected.

Newcastle opted for remain by not -- but not by a lot. It felt very

close. Look, both on 50%. Do we know what is happening at this point? No,

and I have just responded to a tweet sent by a colleague. And still we

start to see results from the south east, because the Remain come out

predicating a win on a good showing in London, Surrey, East Sussex,

Hampshire, that sort of area. Until I see some results elsewhere, no,

not yet. In between, politicians did radio interviews in strange places.

Come round here, and there is Amber Rudd, a member of Parliament, in the

kitchen. I am waiting to do an interview, it is living the dream. I

will have an Americano with a dash of milk. Labour areas, lots of them

voted out, but according to Labour that was actually a good thing. What

do you think when you see that? It is what I was expecting. I have been

saying all the way along it will be touch and go, really close. This has

demonstrated exactly where the country is, fairly Eurosceptical but

pragmatic and wants to remain within. Whichever way it goes, I

think there will be a few percentage points either way and Jeremy will be

a reflection of how the country feels and that is what you want in a

leader. The percentages were not going Remain's away, as proved by

the miserable faces up their party. Brexit campaigners like Jacob

Rees-Mogg started to think about dreams of their own.

I'm opening a fete on Saturday and that will be a great celebration

Actually, I promised to take my four-year-old to the toy

shop because it was his birthday yesterday and he can

He may get a slightly better present if there is a Brexit.

Finally, just before 5:00am, David Dimbleby declared

The decision taken in 1975 by this country to join the Common Market

has been reversed by this referendum to leave the EU.

The action moved from the studio to Westminster and they denouement

I love this country and I feel honoured to have

The Prime Minister going, Britain's destiny changed,

David Cameron's early morning announcement of his resignation

on Friday fired the starting gun on the first Conservative leadership

To stand for the party leadership, candidates only need to be

If more than two candidates stand, a ballot of MPs whittles that down

via first past the post, until they are left

Those two are then put to the full membership of the party,

said to be about 150,000 strong, who decide the winner

David Cameron has said he wants a successor in place

by the Conservative Party conference in Birmingham, which starts

But it will be the backbench 1922 Committee which decides

They will meet tomorrow to set the process in train.

I'm joined now by the Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party

Is it not inconceivable, given that the country has voted to leave the

EU, that it can be anything but a Brexit leader to take over? That may

be the case but it will be up to the members and Parliamentary party to

decide. My point is that, given the way the country has voted, given the

Conservative Party voted even more that way to leave, that you need to

have a leader that embodies... Was there for the fight on that side. It

may be that the party membership decides for those reasons to vote

for a Brexit leader, but it may be that they vote for someone over all

who they think will best serve the country and party, it is just

unknown. Will they be likely to trust somebody that said vote to

remain to head up the divorce negotiations to leave? I don't think

that will come into the equation because the country has voted to

leave, I don't believe in the second referendum. I believe our party has

moved forward now so people want to consider a range of things. Who are

the main candidate in your view? Who knows, because no one has put

themselves forward yet. Clearly Boris will be one of them, maybe

Stephen Crabb, who knows. What about Theresa May? We haven't heard from

her. I'm sure we will hear from people over the next week. Including

Theresa May? She seems to be missing in action. We will see. Are George

Osborne's leadership hopes now in toast? We will see. The country has

made its decision. You are reluctant remainer, is that fair? Yes, because

with the terrorism I believe it is better to be in an alliance of

democracy. I think as a party we have faced three existential

challenges. One is in terms of how people perceive us and whether we

are seen as a passionate Conservative Party, second way in

terms of our infrastructure. If we are honest or infrastructure is

dying in the country and our membership is ageing, and thirdly it

will be best at restoring party unity. I want someone who will deal

with those serious issues that really threaten our existence as a

party. They are even more relevant because the Labour Party will get

its act together and get rid of Jeremy Corbyn. The European issue

has destroyed the careers of the last three Conservative prime

ministers. Margaret Thatcher, John Major, now David Cameron. Is there

any chance now the country has taken the decision to leave that it

doesn't become the toxic issue it has been for your party? I think we

should follow perhaps the 11th commandment for every conservatism,

pessimism is a luxury know one should allow themselves. Obviously

the renegotiations will be difficult but we need to move on and discuss

other issues that are facing the country. Finally, what do you make

of what Liam Fox has told this programme, that rather than MPs

rushing to create the short list of two names that then goes to the

wider Conservative Party and the country, to do that by July the 21st

with summer hustings and a combination of the Tory conference

if I can put it that way, that in fact it should all be on hold until

the Tory conference and that you should have hustings there, then

whittle it down to two, and have a new leader by the beginning of

November. My own feeling is that it will be up to 1922 and the

membership to decide. I would prefer that we don't go on forever choosing

a leader. I think we need a new leader for the stability of the

country, but we need someone who will put compassionate conservatism

at the forefront. Your fellow MPs have to get a short

list of two by July the 21st? Am not telling them, but we should have a

leadership contest sooner rather than later, because the country

needs stability. I will take that as a yes. Robert Halfon, thank you very

much. It's not just Her

Majesty's Government feeling the after-shocks

of Plates also appear to be

shifting for Her Majesty's Opposition, with Jeremy Corbyn

sacking Hilary Benn from his Shadow Cabinet last night

and facing a vote of no confidence at tomorrow's meeting

of the The secret ballot will not

have any formal status, but backers hope it will embolden

others to speak out, and build an unstoppable momentum

against their leader. So far, MPs, including

Stephen Kinnock, Frank Field, Caroline Flint and Tristram Hunt,

have already said they However, in order to depose

a sitting Labour leader, a challenger will have

to put themselves forward, and receive the support

of 20% of the party's MPs. There are currently 229 Labour MPs,

so 46 would have to back the leadership challenge by writing

to general secretary Iain McNicol If a nominee secures

that level of support, a contest will be held

at the party's autumn conference, taking place in Liverpool

at the end of September. If any further MP wanted to enter

the race, they would also need Voting takes place on a one member,

one vote basis by Labour members, affiliates and registered

supporters. If more than two candidates stand,

voters will rank their preferences. If no candidates get above 50%

on first preference, the last placed candidate

is eliminated and their vote is transferred until one gets

above the threshold. We are now hearing that another

Shadow Cabinet minister has resigned, Gloria del Piero. One of

the younger intake of Labour politicians from the North, ought to

be in tune with what Labour needs to do in the North.

With me now is the Shadow Defence Secretary Emily Thornberry.

Are you going to resign? No, and I can tell you why. I think that at a

time like this, when the Tory party is pulling themselves apart, when

nobody has any idea with the country ought to go next, the challenge for

the Labour Party is to show some leadership. And to be a centre of

composure, to think about where we are going, and I think we should be

thinking about the nation first. What is happening in your Shadow

Cabinet? Why is this happening? I do not really understand it. We had a

Shadow Cabinet meeting on Friday and there were lots of opportunities

than for people to express what they thought. I made it clear that the

defence of UI have been working on for the last 56 months would need to

be redrafted. I would need to think again about it. In light of what is

happening? Yes, it has a big impact on defence. It was disappointing for

me but the important thing is we remain unified as a party and focus

on what is important. The important thing is what are we going to do

now. The pound is falling, look at what is happening to share prices.

We need to be calm, and we need to show a bit of foresight and

leadership. Focus. Now, or fall times now, people think it is a good

idea to go for a leadership challenge? It is extraordinary. It

seems that lots of your colleagues in the Shadow Cabinet and even more

in the parliamentary party, they seem to be angry that there was not

enough leadership during the referendum campaign from Jeremy

Corbyn, and they do not think that Hilary Benn is a leader and they do

not think he can take you to victory in 2020. That is all coming from

Hilary Benn given that he ran the campaign. I'll so think that if

Jeremy had been allowed, David Cameron, if he had stepped aside and

let Jeremy take a leadership role in this campaign, I think we would have

done better. In what way did David Cameron stop Jeremy Corbyn? David

Cameron made it all about him, about his brilliant deal, getting onto the

media all the time, always being blue on blue. When I spoke to David

Cameron during the referendum campaign, he was complaining he was

having to do all the heavy lifting. He was not just complaining about

the lack of support from the Labour Party, but from the Tories as well.

Where did he stop Jeremy Corbyn making his mark? Jeremy made 30

speeches up and down the country. There was very little space us to

get inserted into that debate. People criticise Jeremy for saying

that he was only in favour of the European Union, 7.5 out of ten. I

think that was truthful and real, and it reflected the views of lots

of people in the country. Lots of people will have voted to remain.

Those on the fence would have questioned whether they were in

favour. Jeremy's voice was more truthful. Does that mean he is a

better leader than David Cameron? I suspect it does. When did Jeremy

Corbyn complain he was not been allowed to do more? We were always

complaining. I went to Birmingham with half of the women from the

Shadow Cabinet. We spoke to women in workplaces and so on. What was the

coverage we got? There was a little clip, a film of us going into

summer, and the voice-over being, nobody knows what Labour says on the

referendum. Nonsense. You can complain you did not get the media

coverage you wanted. That is true. I do not remember Mr Corbyn rushing to

accept one-on-one interviews. There were plenty of offers. In the end, I

think he did one on Sky News in the evening. If he was champing at the

bit to get it across, why did they not agree to do more interviews and

programmes like this? The truth is that Jeremy had a straightforward

response to the referendum. I think he should have been given an

opportunity to get that out more. If he had been able to, that would have

rung true with the country. I'll so think the Jeremy was also elected

less than a year ago and 60% of the membership voted in his favour. Now

is not the time for us to go for a leadership challenge, this is

nonsense. We have you here, arguing your case, effectively as always. It

is not true of all Labour people. I think that Mr Watson has been to

Glastonbury. I am not quite sure what the silent disco is. There he

is, the deputy leader of the Labour Party. Would you rather be there

with him or here with me? I would always rather be with you. I knew

you would say that. What would use it to your colleagues in the

Parliamentary Labour Party to face this motion of no confidence that

could be placed before the PLP tomorrow night? I am told there

could be a majority forehead. I do not think there will be a motion of

no confidence tomorrow night. They could vote the next day? Or the week

afterwards, depending on how you interpret it. Could you lose? I

think members of Parliament need to look at what the country is calling

out for. The country is calling out for the Labour Party to step up and

show an alternative. We must do that in a unified way. There is not the

time for internal fighting. It is quite marketable we have a Prime

Minister who has just resigned, there will not be a new Prime

Minister at least until the beginning of October, if Liam Fox

gets his way, it may not be until November. And the Labour Party is in

the middle of its own turmoil as well. I have covered situations

where one party has been in turmoil and the other one has taken

advantage, but you are now both in turmoil. It is unprecedented? I

agree, and the future is in hands. It is up to us, what we decide to do

in the next few days. I will urge my colleagues to take a responsible

view of this and think of the country first. The country needs us

to be there. You're right, the Tories went into this, the two parts

of the Tories, the Brexiteers went in not knowing what would happen if

we got the Leave vote, and the government went in with no plan B.

There is no plan at the moment, and our country needs a party to step up

and do that role. That is what we should be doing. What do you say to

those Labour supporters, not members, but supporters and voters,

in the heartlands of the North and the Midlands, who did not follow

your party's advise? They voted in substantial numbers to leave. They

do not think that this Labour Party represents them. What do you say to

them? One thing that came out clearly from this Brexit vote, is

that half the country feels that the system does not help them. They are

getting a raw deal, and whether that is because they cannot get their

kids housing, or because they are having problems with their jobs and

their terms and conditions, weather data not get access to public

services, all these things are wrapped up in the vote. The tragedy

is that we have answers to that nationally, and if we have a decent

government prepared to address those issues, perhaps people would have a

slightly different view. Now we have to reach out and speak to them. We

must not do what happened after the Scottish referendum, when the Labour

Party turned in on itself. We have running out of time. Can you give me

a one sentence inkling of how your defence review might change? There

is a question of how we defend borders now. If the GDP goes, we're

2% of GDP being spent on defence. What happens if GDP goes through the

floor? Will have cuts? I also think that the EU and Nato two sides of

the same coin. International relationships will change. A whole

range of things will be affected. Thank you very much, Emily

Thornberry. Now, as one union was broken

with the vote on Thursday, the fate of another

came into sharp focus. In Scotland, First Minister Nicola

Sturgeon of the SNP said the option

of a second referendum on independence was now very much

back on the table after Scotland voted by a significant margin

in favour of remaining within the EU,

only for votes elsewhere in Britain to swing

Here she is speaking earlier on the Andrew

At this stage I am not prepared to accept that certain things are

inevitable. I have a job to do to protect Scotland and negotiate the

best way forward. I look on at what is happening at Westminster with a

sense of utter despair and a half of people across England and other

parts of the UK, as the vacuum of leadership in the Tories and Labour

develops. There is no vacuum of leadership in Scotland. As First

Minister I will do everything I possibly can to prevent Scotland

been taken out of the European Union, because the consequences of

allowing us to be so will be devastating.

Well, Scotland's not the only part of the

UK where there are calls for constitutional change

In Northern Ireland Sinn Fein have suggested that British

withdrawal from the EU has strengthened the case for

I'm joined now from Londonderry by the Deputy First Minister

of Northern Ireland, Martin

Welcome to the programme, Martin McGuinness. Thank you. First of all,

what makes you say that the 56% vote to remain as overwhelming? It is a

very clear vote by a majority of people in the North, which are made

up of unionists, nationalists and Republicans, who wished to remain in

Europe. I think that cannot be ignored, either by the British

government, the Irish government, or the powers that be at the European

Union. What we do need in the immediate future is an all Ireland

solution to the problem. That requires the attention of the

Taoiseach in particular. I was very disturbed over the last couple of

days, when the Taoiseach focused on how sympathetic the Irish government

would be to British government that was negotiating its way out of

Europe over the course of the two years. Rather he should have been

focusing on how the democratically expressed wishes of the majority of

people in the north, to remain in Europe, could be catered for. I

spoke to the Irish government Foreign Minister on Friday and I

have requested an urgent meeting with the Taoiseach on this matter.

Right, but to get back to this idea that there is an overwhelming

desire, following that vote to remain in Northern Ireland, to

remain in the EU, why would that translate to an overwhelming, to use

your word, to have a referendum on Irish unification? The border poll

was part of the Good Friday Agreement. It is something I think

you'd be conducted in a very civilised and cordial fashion, just

as the debate on Scottish independence was conducted in

Scotland. There is not an overwhelming desire, stated just

from the vote last Thursday, from what you're calling for? I did not

say that there was. What I did say was that I do believe that that

exercise is one that should be undertaken at some stage in the

future. The immediate focus, the immediate focus needs to be on how

we continue our relationship with the European Union? That is where my

focus is. That is where my focus is on that is why I think discussions

with the Taoiseach are urgent and require immediate attention, as the

discussions with the powers that be at the European Union are. When you

consider the position of Scotland, which is also overwhelmingly voted

to remain in Europe, there is a massive responsibility no given that

we have these two massive centres of population that want to remain in

Europe. The powers that be within the European Union need to take

account of the democratically expressed wishes of the people of

Scotland and Northern Ireland. That is to do with the relationship with

the European Union. Enda Kenny, the Irish Taoiseach, seemed some

distance from welcoming your demand for a border poll. He said, we have

more serious issues to deal with in the medium term and that is where

our focus lies. My focus lies on how we can continue

to maintain our relationship with the European Union. So you are not

against holding this border poll? No, we do believe there should be

one in the future. In the immediate future the focus needs to be on the

whole issue of how we can maintain our relationship with Europe, which

has been so beneficial over the course of the last number of

decades. Whenever you consider the dangers for us in terms of the

dangers to our ability to develop our economy, the dangers to the

prospect of border controls, which I think would represent a very serious

undermining of the Good Friday Agreement, the whole issue of

foreign direct investment which is now threatened by the decision to

pull out of Europe, particularly from Northern America. But you

cannot do that, can you, unless there was some sort of referendum on

Irish reunification. You cannot do that from within the UK, since the

UK has voted as a whole to leave. I'm saying there needs to be special

arrangements which take account of the democratically expressed wishes

of the people of Northern Ireland and the people of Scotland, who

wished to remain and maintain our contacts and ability to work with

very senior officials and governmental authorities within

Europe. So I think that from my perspective, although you are

focused on the issue of the border poll, the immediate task has to be

how the democratically expressed wishes of the people here in the

north of Ireland can be catered for in the context of these huge debates

which will consume over the course of the next number of months. Of

course we are very disturbed that the British Prime Minister has

clearly indicated that there will be no engagement with Europe on the

whole issue of article 50 until there is a new British Prime

Minister. Martin McGuinness, thank you. It is a fast-moving story here

this morning. We now have Gloria De Piero's

resignation letter, and a letter from Margaret

Hodge. We need to believe Jeremy Corbyn should consider his position.

When he did engage she was half-hearted, and in the end of

Labour Party members and voters didn't know where the leader really

stored. That is the latest from there. We have reassembled just for

a few minutes before we go to the nations and regions our dream team

panel. So we have a lame duck government, the dysfunctional

opposition, and we voted to leave the EU. Anything else happening in

politics today? It doesn't look like these resignations are petering out.

It is only about an hour since the last one! I think Gloria De Piero is

very significant because she was a close ally of Tom Watson, it looks

like it is picking up steam now. She is one of those Labour MPs from the

north. She had been in the media but seemed to be firmly rooted in the

north, away from the Metropolitan chattering classes so that is

significant. Not from a privileged background. She is going, there is a

rumour Charlie Faulkner is also going, and he was always the bridge

between the moderates and the Corbyn supporters. You ask if anything else

is going on in politics at the moment, there is the potential

unravelling of the UK itself. In the vacuum of leadership which has

emerged since Friday morning, David Cameron going, Jeremy Corbyn being

weak in his position, the closest thing I have seen in leadership is

Nicola Sturgeon north of the border. You may or disagree with her

position but she has a plan. The markets will be opening at 7am

tomorrow here in London. The sterling, the FTSE could take a

knock. Doesn't the Prime Minister now have to give a clear idea of

where Britain goes now? Of the beginning of the informal talks, the

process. Even though he is on his way out, isn't his duty to steady

the ship? The biggest question is where on earth is the Chancellor in

all of this. He is responsible in overseeing what will happen in the

next few days in terms of the economy. We have that dignified and

reassuring statement from Mark Carney, the governor of the Bank of

England on Friday morning. Since then, where is George Osborne. He is

nowhere to be seen, I find it extraordinary. It is no good to say,

I don't think, that he's busy talking behind the seems to the

people that matter. He should be showing some leadership. Maybe he's

sharing the same safe house is Theresa May, maybe they are holed up

together working out how to stop Boris Johnson as being the next

leader of the Tory party. Over the coming weeks there will be the

so-called ABBs, Anyone But Boris. They didn't keep out Jeremy Corbyn

so they may have a fight on their hands.

It's just gone 11.30, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics Wales.

At the end of the biggest political week for decades,

this morning the fallout shows no sign of waining.

Hilary Benn's sacking has led in several other shadow ministers

either standing down or considering doing so.

The pressure on Jeremy Corbyn to go is now increasing.

The Labour MP for Aberavon, Stephen Kinnock, has backed calls

for Jeremy Corbyn to face a no confidence motion.

I spoke to him a few minutes ago and asked him why Corbyn had to go.

It will require a Labour leader who is a negotiator.

I have a huge amount of respect for Jeremy as a

long-standing and committed constituency MP, campaigning on

I do not see him as a negotiator with the skills and experience we

need to take us forward during this unprecedented time.

We have heard from John McDonnell, the Shadow

Chancellor this morning, saying Jeremy Corbyn

The membership of the party have given

him an overwhelming majority to Jeremy Corbyn as leader

I accept the membership gave Jeromy a huge

mandate but that was then and this is now.

Everything has changed and I hope that our membership will see...

Why has Brexit changed everything in terms

of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership in the eyes of your members?

The Brexit has changed everything because it is going to

completely dominate British politics for the next three to five

Also there will be a general election.

I think this autumn the new leader of the Conservative Party will have

That election will take place completely in the context

We need a leader of the party who understands

the European Union, understands the implications of being in or out

of the single market, what it means for business,

what it means for workers' rights, jobs, growth,

If there is a general election, one of your colleagues, a

Welsh Labour MP, has told us today you could lose as many as 70 MPs.

With Jeremy Corbyn in a general election, perhaps

later this year, you could lose a serious number of your

That is absolutely central to our concerns.

We have to ensure we go into that general election with

a leader who is right in the context of a post Brexit

The job description has changed, the mandate Jeromy got

from the membership when he was elected was in a different

Who is the right personfor the job to take

over and use that mandate for the future?

You are not going to draw me on that.

If you're going to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn

you can't think nobody is there ready to take over as a leader.

It will be up to those candidates to come forward

They have to explain to the membership why.

You are not going to draw me on that.

There are some strong candidates out there.

the debate in the Parliamentary Labour Party tomorrow

We have the motion of no-confidence vote and then we have

It will be up to each of the candidates

to set out their stall, to explain why they are the right leader to

take us it into the general election which is almost certainly coming

Stephen Kinnock, thank you very much for coming

Our political editor, Nick Servini has been speaking

On the record, a lot of them have gone to ground this morning. Clearly

what we are seeing that as a fall assault by the party on Jeremy

Corbyn. To Shadow Cabinet members are gone. Any more will follow

today. There are two things at play. As you heard from Stephen Kinnock,

deep concern among many MPs that if it is a general election and in all

likelihood they will be sooner rather than later, as a result of

what has happened with that result, then an element of self-preservation

here. A lot are going to lose their jobs or they feel they could lose

their jobs. Then you've got the wider question. We have to remember

Jeremy Corbyn was overwhelmingly backed by your own, grassroots

members fired up about the principles he stood for. I've spoken

to figures in the party who said they have had e-mail after e-mail

saying in effect, agreeing with Stephen Kinnock, the Brexit of

results a game changer because so many of these people as well as

being very supportive of Jeremy Corbyn, they are fiercely

pro-European and they feel Jeremy Corbyn did not run a good campaign.

Now everything that has happened this morning is linked directly

to last week's referendum vote to leave the EU.

So what now for Wales' relationship with Europe?

The Welsh Secretary has told this programme that AMs should look

at why voters in Wales voted for Brexit when so many communities

have had so much EU grant aid spent on them.

More from our Political Correspondent, Daniel Davies.

Keep going, keep going, keep going, keep going!

After a bruising encounter, Brexit won out.

Blaenavon in Torfaen, one of two counties,

along with neighbouring Blaenau Gwent where the Leave vote

Late in the campaign, one senior Labour politician told me

some of his constituents were using the referendum to whinge

But in places like this, they did more

than just whinge, they went to the ballot box and let

You voted to leave, I guess?

Yes. Definitely.

I just feel with grandchildren and great-grandchildren coming up we

No, I couldn't make up my mind so I decided not to.

I felt like I'd woken up in a foreign country, it is absolutely

Wales gets lots of grants from the EU for things the central

government won't even dream to think of.

It was Heritage Day in Blaenavon yesterday and there is a solid

Labour was plunged into turmoil in the early hours today

when Shadow Foreign Secretary Hilary Benn was sacked

Some MPs say attacking the leader is a distraction.

I've supported Jeremy during his leadership and what I

think is really important now is we don't focus on an individual.

It is very important that as a Labour Party we have a period

of reflection, we have to look at what the voters have said

The really important issue isn't about individuals

but how we respond now as a party.

Others say this to Mr Corbyn's critics.

There have been groups in the Labour Party who have been

saying this since the day Jeremy was elected.

Every pretext has been carried out to undermine you.

Labour's Welsh leader says the timing of this

I warned it was a mistake to have a referendum six weeks after an

Mr Jones's Welsh Government has spent billions of

pounds of EU aid in Valleys communities including on projects

like this, dualling the Heads of the Valleys road.

Yet, most people there still voted to leave.

I think everyone has to look at the sorts of

European policies that were being developed by the Welsh

Government but by the UK Government that didn't have that connection

The public did not recognise the outcomes that were

At the very moment when the party should be ganging up

on the Conservatives who will soon need a new leader.

A Welsh MP, Work and Pensions Secretary, Stephen Crabb is tipped

as a contender to succeed David Cameron.

Well, it is far too early to speculate.

Only a short period of time has passed since the

Prime Minister announced his resignation.

I don't think there are any names out there formally.

There is pure speculation at the moment.

I'm not going to enter any speculation.

There was one question on the ballot paper but it has

The Welsh Government's cabinet starts its

search for answers when it meets tomorrow.

Plenty to talk about then with my guests, the Leader

of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew RT Davies, and the former

MEP and current AM and Peer, Eluned Morgan.

Thank you both for coming in. I will start with Eluned Morgan, what went

wrong on Thursday? The entire Labour Establishment in Wales were all pros

remain and have been given a bit of a bloody nose. There was a

disconnect between the people leading the Labour Party and the

traditional communities we can usually rely up to support us. I

think it was more than just the European Union. People were focused

on it but I think it is also about globalisation, the fact the world

has changed and they don't feel they have got control any more. Now, they

think they will have control. It is interesting to see already it is the

market that are determining what our future is going to be and that

control will be even less, I fear. We spoke during the course of the

evening on Thursday on our overnight programme and you said there needed

to be some serious soul-searching for Labour in Wales. We have heard

Carwyn Jones saying, it wasn't my referendum, it was all about the

timing, it was all about giving the Tories are kicking. He isn't

entering a period of soul searching and reflection. Until we reconnect

with our working class voters are in serious trouble. We didn't listen to

them and they were not listening to us. We need to get a better method

of communication, we need to be in listening mode and we need to act.

Is that coming from the leadership? Do you think Arwyn Jones is aware of

that? Carwyn Jones luck that the results and the results of the

Assembly elections. We did well in the terms of number of seats but we

did badly in then number of votes. That is a real problem for us. Until

we respond we are going to be in deep trouble as a political party.

Andrew RT Davies, looking ahead, what happened Thursday morning was

the pound had a terrible drop, the market reacted badly. Was that worse

than you expected? Did you anticipate that would happen or were

you concerned about what happened was Mike the market was down by 3.5%

closed on Friday. None of the deals that were in place on Thursday

morning had gone by Friday morning. They will not be gone by Monday

morning. The project is funded, the schemes that they will begin to ring

and the jobs will be continuing. Negotiations now start and it'll be

up to the UK Government to enact Article 50. Now was not the time for

hotheads. Now is it time for reflection and vision. There is a

lot of work to be done. In terms of the money coming into Wales our

viewers will be concerned, hundreds of millions of pounds came to Wales

the EU grants. At that will continue. Is that definite? It is a

fact that when people go to work on Monday morning, when they go to work

in 18 months' time, that many were still becoming an eco-zit is a

seven-year programme up to 2020 and that many is guaranteed to come in

and stop what if we have left a 2018? What happens between then and

2020. It will be for the government of the day to continue with the

programmes and make the money available. How's that many is

distributed will be up to the UK Government and the devolved

governments. Let me explain the point in time to make. The central

argument that was on the ballot paper was allowing people to take

decisions and vote politicians in to enact those decisions. The general

election in 2020 will be mapping out the territory we will will be

undertaking. It will be for people the length and breadth of these

islands to vote on the government they wish to serve. The other point

I was making was about reflection, vision for the future and where we

want to be. That is big game we're doing now. Where we want this

country to go because the public have spoken. There is plenty of

reflection about who should have done this and that. I was on a

programme with a First Minister this morning and he said this wasn't his

election. We have heard from Nicola Sturgeon,

there are plans in place and stop those Carwyn Jones have plans in

place? Wherein a situation of economic coal

and constitutional meltdown. There's no point shying away from that. We

need is strong leadership. But is there a plan?

Nobody foresaw this situation in quite the way it is panning out.

What we did have is a whole load of promises that were made by people

like Andrew RT Davies that we were going to see three and ?50 million a

week coming into how our NHS. That many would still come in to the

Buddhist communities stop Nicola Sturgeon is engaging with other

countries, making plans and moving ahead. It seems to me we are still

licking wounds and saying that money has to come from somewhere rather

than going after that. Carwyn Jones has set out clear

radius of what he once to be involved in. He was to make sure

that money keeps on coming to Wales. The first thing we have to do is to

stabilise the economy. People are pulling money out out of our

economy. Jobs are being lost and many will not be graceful tax. Our

services... Is Carwyn Jones showing leadership?

Is he a strong enough leader for this turbulent period?

Carwyn Jones came out fighting the next day. He set out clear proposals

and one of those was he wants to be at the negotiating table. What we

know is we cannot leave the European Union without the endorsement of the

Welsh Government. That is something that have to be sought and which

means he will be... You are happy Carwyn Jones

continues? Absolutely, without question. He is

showing the leadership. It is difficult because Wales voted no

Mac. It puts him in a difficult city ratio. We cannot come in all good

conscience, go to Brussels and make the same case that Nicola Sturgeon

is making. We will wait to see who the next

leader of the Conservative Party has. You say then needs to be a

prime, surely people at home will be asking what on earth is the plan?

You well hoping for this. This referendum was in our manifesto

in 2015. It isn't an unforeseen referendum. There were lots of other

commitments made in that manifesto that was endorsed by the public.

What is the plan after Brexit? To go into negotiations with European

Union over balancing our relationship will stop we trade

globally, we trade with our allies that that is a bright future for

this country. We have a fifth-largest economy. We are not

any more. We are the sixth. People want to talk down the democratic

decision now was taken on Thursday. It was endorsed by 17 of the 22

areas counted in Wales. What happens next? You are talking in platitudes

of being the sixth largest economy. That isn't something you can go to

Brussels and saying. There is nothing...

We will continue to trade and have access into market whether they be

European or global and we will have the money available to send around

the regions and countries as committed to stop that happen. Every

five years there will be an election. The government will give

their priorities. People will speak through the ballot box for the first

time in 45 years. It is important politicians raise their game, don't

look back with acrimony and work on vision for the future, a future that

looks very bright. Eluned Morgan, you said the Welsh Government has to

give its stamp of approval in this referendum. Nicola Sturgeon has said

she's not sure if the Scottish parliament will do that. If this was

government refused for this to be ratified it be huge betrayal for the

people of Wales who voted for it. We've got two years before we get to

the end of the negotiation. The EU will be a different place within two

years. Issues like the free movement of people whisper on the table

within DEV. We shouldn't really press ahead to quickly here. Now was

the time for calm heads, we need stability in the markets, we need to

make sure people feel they can invest in our economy and that is a

long-term prospects for our country. We have got much time left. Andrew

RT Davies, if it turns out the Welsh Government, Scotland and Northern

Ireland use the power to stop the referendum going ahead?

These discussions need to take place first. Ultimately, it'll be for the

deal to be put before the legislators and Parliament and

assemblers of the UK and it could be there was a general election in 2020

that would determine it by a vote of the whole country. We have a

government in place only recently elected with key commitments, key

manifesto pledges which it will continue to deliver. This

referendum, the people spoke. 48% of the population chose to remain Mac.

It is vital that views Alison to. Thank you both are coming in. We

have two knock it on behalf of there.

This morning's events prove that nowadays a day

is a long time in politics, never mind a week.

Frankly, no-one knows how the next few days,

never mind the next few weeks and months, will pan out.

We do however know that there are events this week

which will affect the direction the UK takes in the long run.

Get your pens out and find me a window in your diaries as we look

First thing tomorrow morning, Carwyn Jones will meet his cabinet

to discuss the Welsh Government's latest reaction to Brexit.

MPs will return to Parliament to feverish speculation

about who will be Prime Minister when David Cameron stands down.

Will it be Boris Johnson or Theresa May?

Or do others, like Stephen Crabb, stand a good chance?

Equally feverish will be the speculation about the future

Tomorrow night is the weekly meeting of Labour MPs.

You would pay good many to be a fly on the wall there.

On Tuesday, AMs from all parties will get the chance to quiz

Carwyn Jones about his reaction to Brexit during First

In Brussels, a special sitting of the European Parliament

will discuss what has happened and David Cameron

will address the leaders of the other 27 EU member states.

On Wednesday, those states will meet without the UK for the first time to

Back in the Commons, MPs will have their first chance

to question the Prime Minister since the vote.

who can say where we will be at that point?

But this is an enough for is be to getting on with, I think.

Well, I can't think of a week where there has been more

to talk about in politics, so we thought we'd invite two

stalwarts who know all the main players and have got their finger

The Sonny and Cher of political punditry!

The analyst Valerie Livingston and our political editor,

One of the things I listen to this morning, is the current government,

is that strong and stable enough for the tumultuous period to come?

Opening the door possibly to some kind of formal coalition between

Labour and Plaid Cymru which is the kind of questions being asked. In