Browse content similar to 20/11/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Morning folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
Theresa May says she'll deliver on Brexit but does that mean leaving | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
the EU's Single Market and the Customs Union? | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
Tory MPs campaign for a commitment from the Prime | :00:50. | :00:51. | |
The Chancellor pledges just over a billion pounds worth of spending | :00:52. | :01:04. | |
on Britain's roads but is that it or will there be | :01:05. | :01:11. | |
Their last leader was just 18 days in the job. | :01:12. | :01:18. | |
Later in the programme, what does the Welsh Government want | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
in London: Is the battle for of AMs, but how many | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
in London: Is the battle for Richmond Park based on the skies? Or | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
is it about a bigger conflict in Europe? | :01:31. | :01:39. | |
And with me - as always - and, no, these three aren't doing | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
the Mannequin challenge - it's our dynamic, demonstrative, | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
dazzling political panel - Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott | :01:47. | :01:48. | |
and Tom Newton Dunn they'll also be tweeting throughout the programme. | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
First this morning - Theresa May has said | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
"Brexit means Brexit" - but can the Prime Minister - | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
who was on the Remain side of argument during the referendum | :02:01. | :02:02. | |
Well, Leave-supporting Tory MPs are re-launching | :02:03. | :02:11. | |
the "European Research Group" this morning to keep Mrs May's feet | :02:12. | :02:18. | |
Are you worried that you cannot trust Theresa May until payment to | :02:19. | :02:28. | |
deliver full Brexit was Magellan like I totally trust Theresa May, | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
100% behind her. She has displayed a massive amount of commitment to | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
making a success of Brexit for the country. | :02:38. | :02:40. | |
We don't know that yet, because nothing has happened. Why, then, | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
have you formed a pressure group? We were fed up with the negativity | :02:45. | :02:51. | |
coming out around Brexit. I feel positive about the opportunities we | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
face, and we are a group to provide suggestions. Who do you have in mind | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
when you talk about negativity - the Chancellor? No, from the Lib Dems, | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
for example, from Labour MPs. This is a pressure group for leaving | :03:06. | :03:12. | |
membership of the single market and customs union, correct? That is what | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
we are proposing. It has a purpose other than just to combat | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
negativity. When it comes to membership of the single market and | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
the customs union, can you tell us what Government policy is towards | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
both or either? Rightly, the Government hasn't made the position | :03:31. | :03:33. | |
clear, and I think that is the right approach, because we don't want to | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
review our negotiating hand. What we're saying... I'm not asking what | :03:39. | :03:45. | |
you are saying. Can you tell us what Government policy is towards | :03:46. | :03:47. | |
membership of these institutions? The Government wants to make sure | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
British businesses have the right to trade with EU partners, to forge new | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
trade deals with the rest of the world. We hope to Reza may speak at | :03:57. | :04:04. | |
Mansion house this week. -- we had Theresa May speak at Mansion house | :04:05. | :04:07. | |
this week. She has been clear, saying it was not a binary choice. | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
And she's right. Let's run that tape, because I want to pick up on | :04:14. | :04:16. | |
what she did say. This is what she had to say about the customs union | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
at Prime Minister's Question Time. On the whole question of the customs | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
union, trading relationships that we have with the European Union and | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
other parts of the world once we have left the European Union, we are | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
preparing carefully for the formal negotiations. We are preparing | :04:35. | :04:44. | |
carefully for the formal negotiations. We want to ensure we | :04:45. | :04:47. | |
have the best possible trading deal with the EU once we have left. Do | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
you know what she means when she says being in the customs union is | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
not a binary choice? I think she's right when she says that. At the | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
moment, and you know this, as long as we are in the customs union, we | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
cannot set our own tariffs or rules, cannot have a free trade agreement | :05:07. | :05:09. | |
with the US or China. We need to leave a customs union to do that. | :05:10. | :05:15. | |
Binary means either you are in or you are out, self which is it? We | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
still want to trade with the EU, and I think we can have a free trade | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
agreement with the EU. That is a separate matter, and it has to do | :05:24. | :05:30. | |
with the single market. What about the customs union? We need to leave | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
the customs union. We do it and properly. That is how to get the | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
most out of this opportunity. Summit is a binary choice? The Prime | :05:40. | :05:42. | |
Minister is right when she says it's not a binary choice. Both can't be | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
right. We can leave the customs union, get their benefits, and have | :05:48. | :05:55. | |
a free trade agreement with zero tariffs with the EU. So it is a | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
binary choice an either be stale really. Yellow like I am saying the | :06:02. | :06:03. | |
Prime Minister is right when she says it is not a binary choice. -- I | :06:04. | :06:10. | |
am saying the Prime Minister is right. We need clarity. Youth had | :06:11. | :06:18. | |
said -- you have said it is a binary choice. We need to leave the | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
constraints of the customs union. It pushes up prices. The EU is not | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
securing the right trade deals, and if we want to make the most of it, | :06:28. | :06:30. | |
we need to get out there and get some deals going. Do you accept that | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
if we remain in the customs union, we cannot do our own free-trade | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
deals? Yellow right 100%. That is why we have to leave. -- 100%. Do | :06:42. | :06:56. | |
you accept that if we leave the customs union but stay with | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
substantial access, I don't say membership, but substantial access | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
to the single market, that goods going from this country to the | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
single market because we're no longer in the union will be subject | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
to complicated rules of origin regulations, which could cost | :07:13. | :07:20. | |
business ?13 billion a year? I would like to see a free-trade agreement | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
between the UK and the EU. Look at the Canadian deal. I give you that, | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
but if we're not in the customs union, things that we bring in on | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
our own tariffs once we've left, we can't just export again willy-nilly | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
to the EU. They will demand to see rules of origin. Norway has to do | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
that at the moment and it is highly complicated expensive. I think if we | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
agree a particular arrangement as part of this agreement with the EU, | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
we can reach an agreement on that which sets a lower standard, which | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
sets a different level of tariffs, which protects some of our | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
industries. Let's suppose we have pretty much free trade with the EU | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
but we are out of the customs union, and let's suppose that the European | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
Union has a 20% tariff on Japanese whisky and we decide to have a 0% | :08:11. | :08:19. | |
tariff - what then happens to the whisky that comes into Britain and | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
goes on to the EU? The EU will not let that in. That will be part of | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
the negotiation. I think there is a huge benefit for external operators. | :08:30. | :08:35. | |
Every bottle of Japanese whisky, they will have to work out the rules | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
of origin. There have been studies that show there is a potential for | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
50% increase in global product if we leave. We're losing the benefits of | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
free trade. I understand, I am asking for your particular view. | :08:51. | :08:51. | |
Thank you for that. Is it not surprising Mr Hannan could | :08:52. | :09:00. | |
not bring himself to say we would leave the customs union? It is | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
messy. The reason there is this new group of Tory MPs signing up to a | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
campaign to make sure we get a genuine Brexit is because there is | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
this vacuum. It is being filled with all sorts of briefing from the other | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
side. There is a real risk in the minds of Brexit supporting MPs that | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
the remaining side are going to try to hijack the process, not only | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
through the Supreme Court action, which I think most Brexit MPs seem | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
to accept the appeal will fail, but further down the line, through | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
amendments to the great repeal bill. This is a pressure group to try to | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
hold the Prime Minister to account. There is plenty of pressure on the | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
Prime Minister effectively to stay in the single market and the customs | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
union, and if you do both of these things, de facto, you have stayed in | :09:53. | :09:59. | |
the EU. She is in a difficult position because there is no good | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
faith assumption about what Theresa May wants because she was a | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
Remainer. There is all this talk about a transitional arrangement, | :10:09. | :10:11. | |
but she can't sell that as someone who voted to remain. The way Isabel | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
has characterised it is interesting. There is a betrayal narrative. | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
Everyone is looking to say that she has betrayed the true Brexit. Since | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
the Government cannot give a clear indication of what it once in terms | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
of the customs union, which sets external tariffs, or the single | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
market, which is the free movement of people, capital, goods and | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
services, others are filling this vacuum. Right. The reasons they | :10:40. | :10:46. | |
can't do this are, first, they don't know if they can get it or not. We | :10:47. | :10:49. | |
saw this with the renegotiation the last Prime Minister. What are they | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
hoping to get? The world on a stick, to get cake and eat it. You go into | :10:57. | :11:06. | |
a negotiation saying, let's see what we can get in total. Are they going | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
to ask the membership of the single market? Yellow I think they will ask | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
for a free trade agreement involving everything. You can demand what you | :11:16. | :11:27. | |
want. The question is, do they stand a cat's chance in hell of getting | :11:28. | :11:33. | |
it? They don't know. Welcome back. We will be back, believe me. It is | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
150 day since we found out the UK had voted to leave the EU, but as we | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
have heard, remain and leave campaigners continue to battle about | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
what type of relationship we should have with the EU after exit. | :11:49. | :11:56. | |
Leave campaigners say that leaving the EU | :11:57. | :11:57. | |
also means quitting the | :11:58. | :11:58. | |
Single Market, the internal European trading bloc that includes free | :11:59. | :12:01. | |
movement of goods, services, capital and people. | :12:02. | :12:03. | |
They point to evidence that leading Leave supporting | :12:04. | :12:05. | |
politicians ruled out staying in the Single Market during | :12:06. | :12:07. | |
Andrea Leadsom, for example, said it would almost | :12:08. | :12:10. | |
certainly be the case that the UK would come out of the Single Market. | :12:11. | :12:19. | |
When asked for a yes or no on whether the UK should stay | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
"No, we should be outside the Single Market." | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
And Boris Johnson agreed with his erstwhile ally, saying, "Michael | :12:28. | :12:29. | |
Gove was absolutely right to say the UK | :12:30. | :12:31. | |
They've released a video of clips of Leave campaigners speaking before | :12:32. | :12:42. | |
the referendum apparently saying that the UK should stay in the | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
Nigel Farage, for example, once said that on leaving | :12:46. | :12:48. | |
the EU we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
Owen Paterson, the former Environment Secretary, | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
once made the startling statement that only a madman would actually | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
And Matthew Elliott, the Vote Leave chief, said | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
that the Norwegian option would be initially attractive for some | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
But do these quotes create an accurate picture of what | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
To cast some light on where these quotes came from we're | :13:13. | :13:19. | |
joined by James McGrory, director of Open Britain | :13:20. | :13:21. | |
Welcome to the Sunday Politics. . Your video has statements from leave | :13:22. | :13:35. | |
campaigners hinting they want to stay in the single market. How many | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
were made during the referendum campaign? I don't know. Not one was | :13:39. | :13:46. | |
made during the referendum campaign. Indeed, only two of the 12 | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
statements were recorded after Royal assent had been given to the | :13:52. | :13:54. | |
referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum. | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
Throughout the campaign am a leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
model. Norway are in the single market but not in the EU. They went | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading | :14:10. | :14:11. | |
arrangement they want to see in the future with Europe, when the | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
Treasury model the different models it was the EEA or a free-trade | :14:16. | :14:21. | |
agreement. I understand. Does it not undermine your case that none of the | :14:22. | :14:24. | |
12 statements on your video were made during the campaign itself, | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
when people were giving really serious thought to such matters? The | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
Leave campaign weren't giving serious thought to such matters. | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
They did not set out the future trading model they wanted to see. | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
But you cannot produce a single video with somebody saying we should | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
stay in the single market during the campaign. Daniel Hanna had talked | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
about the Norwegian model as a future option. One comment from | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
Nigel Farage dates back to 2009, when we didn't even know if we would | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
have a referendum or not. Does it not stretch credibility to go back | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
to the time when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister? The overall point | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
stands. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of the options. | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
Daniel Hannan, described as the intellectual godfather of the Leave | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
movement is saying that no one is talking about threatening our place | :15:20. | :15:22. | |
in the signal market. I think it's legitimate to point out the Leave | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
campaign never came forward with a credible argument. We have | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
highlighted some of the quotes you picked out from leave campaigners | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
over time. Do you think you have fully encapsulated their arguments | :15:34. | :15:40. | |
accurately? I don't think in a 92nd video you can talk about the full | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
thing. -- a 90-2nd video. Some of them want to seek a free-trade | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
agreement, some to default on to World Trade Organisation tariffs. | :15:51. | :15:58. | |
There is a range of opinion in the Leave campaign. Let's listen to the | :15:59. | :16:00. | |
clip you used on Owen Paterson first. | :16:01. | :16:02. | |
Only a madman would actually leave the market. | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
Only a madman would actually leave the market. | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
It's not the EU which is | :16:14. | :16:14. | |
a political organisation delivering the prosperity and buying our goods. | :16:15. | :16:17. | |
It's the market, it's the members of the market and we'll carry on | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
I mean, are we really suggesting that the | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
economy in the world is not going to come to come | :16:25. | :16:26. | |
to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU? | :16:27. | :16:28. | |
Are we going to be like Sudan and North | :16:29. | :16:31. | |
It is ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
What he said when he said only a madman would leave Europe, was that | :16:36. | :16:48. | |
we would continue to trade, we would continue to have access. Any country | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
in the world can have access. What the Leave campaign suggested is our | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
trade would continue uninterrupted, they are still at it today, David | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
Davis used the phrase, uninterrupted, from the dispatch box | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
recently. You misrepresented him by saying only a madman would leave the | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
Single Market and stopped it there, because he goes onto say that of | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
course we want Leave in the sense of continuing to have access. I don't | :17:12. | :17:13. | |
think he was about axis, he is talking | :17:14. | :17:31. | |
about membership. He doesn't use the word membership at all. He talks | :17:32. | :17:34. | |
about we are going to carry on trading with them, we will not leap | :17:35. | :17:36. | |
off, we will carry on trading. Anybody can trade with the EU, it's | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
the terms on which you trade that is important and leave campaigners and | :17:40. | :17:41. | |
Patterson is an example of this, saying we can trade as we do now, | :17:42. | :17:44. | |
the government saying we can trade without bureaucratic impediments and | :17:45. | :17:46. | |
tariff free. The viewers will make up their mind. Let's listen to the | :17:47. | :17:49. | |
views of Matthew Elliott, the Chief Executive of Vote Leave. | :17:50. | :17:50. | |
When it comes to the Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that | :17:51. | :17:53. | |
it might be initially attractive for some business people. | :17:54. | :17:55. | |
So you then cut him off there but this is what he went on to say in | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
the same clip, let's listen to that. When it comes to the Norwegian | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive | :18:04. | :18:06. | |
for some business people. But then again for voters | :18:07. | :18:08. | |
who are increasingly concerned about migration in the EU, | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
they will be very concerned that it allows free movement | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
of people to continue. Again, you have misrepresented him. | :18:16. | :18:27. | |
He said the Norwegian model has attractions but there are real | :18:28. | :18:29. | |
problems if it involves free movement of people, which it does. | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
But you cut that bit out. I challenge anyone to represent them | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
accurately because they took such a range of opinions. I don't know what | :18:38. | :18:40. | |
we are supposed to do. You are misrepresenting them. He is saying | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
the Norwegian option is attractive to business, I understand why. It | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
might not be attractive for voters. But then he said if it allowed free | :18:50. | :18:55. | |
movement of people it could be an issue. You took that out. You are | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
saying this is a definitive position. I'm suggesting you are | :19:01. | :19:03. | |
distorting it. This is what you had Mr Farage say. | :19:04. | :19:05. | |
On D+1 we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area | :19:06. | :19:07. | |
This is what he then went on to say in that same clip that you didn't | :19:08. | :19:15. | |
run. There is absolutely | :19:16. | :19:16. | |
nothing to fear in terms of trade from leaving | :19:17. | :19:18. | |
the on D+1 we'll find ourselves part | :19:19. | :19:19. | |
of the European Economic Area and we should use our | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
membership of the EEA as a holding position from which | :19:25. | :19:33. | |
we can negotiate as the European Union's biggest export | :19:34. | :19:36. | |
market in the world, as good a deal, my goodness me, | :19:37. | :19:38. | |
if Switzerland can have one we So there again, he says not that we | :19:39. | :19:48. | |
should stay in the Single Market as a member, but that we stay in the EA | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
as a transition until we negotiate something. -- EEA. This whole clip | :19:54. | :20:03. | |
is online, how would you get away with this distortion? It is not a | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
distortion, the whole point is to point out they do not have a | :20:08. | :20:10. | |
definitive position, he is arguing for membership of the Single Market, | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
for a transitional period. For the transition. How long does that go | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
on, what does he want to then achieve? Not very quickly but he | :20:19. | :20:21. | |
does not say we should stay members of the Single Market and you didn't | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
let people see what he went on to say, you gave the impression he | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
wanted to stay in the one it. It would not be a video then, it would | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
be a seven-week long lecture. They took so many positions, and the idea | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
now that they were clear with people that we should definitely leave the | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
Single Market I think is fictitious. You are trying to make out they all | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
had one position which was to remain members of the one it. You see the | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
full clips that is not what they are saying. We are trying to point out | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
there is no mandate to leave the Single Market. The idea the Leave | :20:54. | :20:56. | |
campaign spoke with unanimity and clarity of purpose and throughout | :20:57. | :20:59. | |
the whole campaign said we will definitely leave the Single Market | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
is not true. That is the whole point of the media. We showed in the | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
montage in the video just before we came on, we said that then Prime | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
Minister, the then Chancellor, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, being | :21:12. | :21:14. | |
categorical that if you vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
membership of the Single Market. What bit of that didn't you | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
understand? Under duress they occasionally said they wanted to | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
leave. Some of them wanted to leave the Single Market. All of the other | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
promises they made, whether ?350 million for the NHS, whether a VAT | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
cut on fuel, points-based system. You do not have a single quote of | :21:36. | :21:38. | |
any of these members saying they want to be a member. Daniel Hannan | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
has said consistently that Norway are a part of the Single Market. You | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
spend the referendum campaign criticising for Rim misrepresenting | :21:48. | :21:49. | |
and misrepresenting and lying and many thought they did. Having seen | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
this many will conclude that you are the biggest liars. I think it is | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
perfectly reasonable to point out that the Leave campaign did not have | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
a clear position on our future trading relationship with Europe. | :22:01. | :22:03. | |
That is all this video does. It doesn't say we definitely have to | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
stay in the Single Market, it just says they do have a mandate to drag | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
us out of our biggest trading partner. | :22:12. | :22:13. | |
Now people have seen the full quotes in context our viewers will make up | :22:14. | :22:15. | |
their mind. Thank you. Now - voting closes next week | :22:16. | :22:17. | |
in the the Ukip leadership contest. The second Ukip leadership contest | :22:18. | :22:20. | |
this year after the party's first female leader - Diane James - | :22:21. | :22:23. | |
stood down from the role Since then the party's lurched from | :22:24. | :22:25. | |
farce to fiasco. It's a world gripped by uncertainty, | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
split into factions. Yes, 2, because they're | :22:29. | :22:44. | |
having their second Watch as the alpha male, | :22:45. | :22:54. | |
the Ukip leader at Nigel Watch as the alpha male, | :22:55. | :23:02. | |
the Ukip leader Nigel Farage, hands power to the new alpha | :23:03. | :23:04. | |
female Diane James. The European Parliament | :23:05. | :23:06. | |
in Strasbourg, October. Another leading light and possible | :23:07. | :23:20. | |
future leader, the MEP Steven Wolfe, | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
has been laid low after an alleged tussle with a colleague | :23:24. | :23:25. | |
during a meeting. A few days later he is | :23:26. | :23:28. | |
out of hospital and I will be withdrawing my | :23:29. | :23:30. | |
application to become I'm actually withdrawing | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
myself from Ukip. You're resigning from the party? | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
I'm resigning with immediate effect. And this week a leaked document | :23:39. | :23:44. | |
suggested the party improperly spent EU funds on political | :23:45. | :23:47. | |
campaigning in the UK. Another headache for whoever takes | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
over the leadership of the pack. One contender is Suzanne Evans, | :23:53. | :23:59. | |
a former Tory councillor and was briefly suspended for | :24:00. | :24:02. | |
disloyalty. Also standing, Paul Nuttall, | :24:03. | :24:10. | |
an MEP from Liverpool who has been by Farage's side | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
as his deputy for six years. There's another big beast | :24:14. | :24:19. | |
in the Ukip leadership contest, and I'm told | :24:20. | :24:21. | |
that today he can be spotted He's John Rees-Evans, | :24:22. | :24:24. | |
a businessman and adventurer who is offering members the chance | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
to propose policies via a website We've got really dedicated | :24:30. | :24:32. | |
passionate supporters who feel like they're not really | :24:33. | :24:46. | |
being listened to and are not even Typically what happens | :24:47. | :24:49. | |
is they just basically sit there until six months before | :24:50. | :24:52. | |
a General Election when they are contacted and asked to go out | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
and leaflet and canvas. Even at branch level people feel | :24:56. | :24:57. | |
there is not an adequate flow of communication | :24:58. | :24:59. | |
up-and-down the party. Are you not going to take part in | :25:00. | :25:01. | |
any hustings? He left a hustings saying | :25:02. | :25:10. | |
the contest was an establishment coronation and has | :25:11. | :25:13. | |
made colourful comments in the past. He's in favour of the death penalty | :25:14. | :25:16. | |
for crimes like paedophilia. I think there is a clear | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
will amongst the offences should be dealt with | :25:20. | :25:20. | |
decisively. But again, on an issue like that, | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
that is something that Our members are not | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
going to agree with me on everything and I don't believe that | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
I would have any authority to have the say and determine | :25:33. | :25:35. | |
the future What method would you use | :25:36. | :25:37. | |
for the death penalty? Again, that is something that could | :25:38. | :25:40. | |
be determined by suggestions made So you'd have like an online | :25:41. | :25:43. | |
poll about whether you use the electric chair, | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
or lethal injection? For example, arguments would be made | :25:48. | :25:53. | |
in favour of This is such a small aspect | :25:54. | :25:55. | |
of what I'm standing for. Essentially, in mainstream media | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
they try to by focusing on pretty irrelevant | :26:00. | :26:01. | |
details. This is one vote that | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
the membership would have. What I'm actually trying to do | :26:08. | :26:09. | |
in this party is to revolutionise the democratic | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
process in the UK, and that's really what your viewers should | :26:14. | :26:16. | |
be concentrating on. With him at the helm he reckons Ukip | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
would win at Meanwhile, in New York, | :26:21. | :26:22. | |
on a visit to Trump Tower, Nigel Farage admired the plumage | :26:23. | :26:30. | |
of the President-elect, a man he has described as | :26:31. | :26:39. | |
a silverback gorilla, a friendship that's been condemned by some | :26:40. | :26:42. | |
in this leadership contest. There are also elections | :26:43. | :26:44. | |
to the party's National Executive Committee, a body | :26:45. | :26:47. | |
that's been roundly criticised by And we're joined now by two | :26:48. | :26:49. | |
of the candidates in the Ukip leadership election - | :26:50. | :27:04. | |
Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall. We are going to kick off by giving | :27:05. | :27:14. | |
each of them 30 seconds to lay out their case as to why they would be | :27:15. | :27:17. | |
the less leader starting with Suzanne Evans. | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
Ukip is at its best when it is scaring the political establishment, | :27:22. | :27:23. | |
forcing it to address those problems it would rather ignore. But it | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
really change people's lives for the better and fast, we need to win | :27:29. | :27:31. | |
seats and elections right across the country. To win at the ballot box we | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
need to attract more women, more ethnic | :27:36. | :27:55. | |
minorities, and more of those Labour voters who no longer recognise their | :27:56. | :27:57. | |
party. I know how to do that. Ukip under my | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
leadership will be the same page about it, common-sense, radical | :28:02. | :28:03. | |
party it has always been, just even more successful. Thank you, Suzanne | :28:04. | :28:05. | |
Evans, Paul Nuttall. I'm standing on a platform of unity and experience. | :28:06. | :28:07. | |
I believe the party must come together if it is to survive and | :28:08. | :28:10. | |
prosper. I believe I'm the best candidate to ensure that happens, I | :28:11. | :28:12. | |
am not part of any faction in the party, and beyond that I have done | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
every single job within the party, whether that is as head of policy, | :28:16. | :28:18. | |
whether that is Party Chairman, deputy leader for Nigel for the past | :28:19. | :28:20. | |
six years. I believe Ukip has great opportunities in Labour | :28:21. | :28:22. | |
constituencies where we can move in and become the Patriot invoice of | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
working people, and beyond that we have to ensure the government's feet | :28:27. | :28:29. | |
are held to the fire on Brexit and we get real Brexit, not a | :28:30. | :28:36. | |
mealy-mouthed version. How will you get a grip on this? People have to | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
realise that the cause is bigger than any personality, we have to get | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
together in a room and sort out not just a spokespeople role but roles | :28:45. | :28:47. | |
within the organisation, Party Chairman, party secretary, and | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
whatnot. But as I say, Ukip must unite, we are on 13% in the opinion | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
polls, the future is bright, there are open goals but Ukip must be on | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
the pitch to score them. He says he's the only one that can get a | :29:02. | :29:04. | |
grip on this party. I disagree, I have a huge amount of experience in | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
the party as well and also a background that I think means I can | :29:09. | :29:11. | |
help bring people together. I have always said nothing breeds unity | :29:12. | :29:22. | |
faster than success and under my leadership we will be successful. | :29:23. | :29:24. | |
There is concern about the future of our National Executive Committee | :29:25. | :29:26. | |
going forward. Mr Farage called it the lowest grade of people I have | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
ever met, do you agree? I think he must have been having a bad day, I | :29:30. | :29:32. | |
think we need to make it more accountable to the membership, more | :29:33. | :29:35. | |
open, more democratic. What would you do with the National Executive | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
Committee? I have been calling for the National Executive Committee to | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
be elected reasonably since 2010 giving the members better | :29:45. | :29:47. | |
communication lines and make it far more transparent. Would you have a | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
clear out of the office? I wouldn't, I think the chairman of the party, | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
Paul Upton, the interim chairman, is doing a good job and the only person | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
who has come out of the summer with his reputation enhanced. Let me show | :30:00. | :30:02. | |
you a picture we have all seen of your current leader, Mr Farage, with | :30:03. | :30:09. | |
President-elect Donald Trump. Paul Nuttall, you criticise Mr Farage's | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
decision to appear at rallies during the American election and called Mr | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
Trump appalling. Do you stick by that? I wouldn't have voted for him. | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
I made it clear. Do you still think he's appalling now that he is | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
President-elect? Some of the things he said were appalling during the | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
campaign that he said. But he would be good for Britain, trade, | :30:32. | :30:34. | |
pro-Brexit and he is an Anglo file and the first thing he did was put | :30:35. | :30:37. | |
the bust of Winston Churchill back in the Oval Office. You, Suzanne | :30:38. | :30:43. | |
Evans, called Mr Trump one of the weakest candidates the US has had. I | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
said the same about Hillary Clinton. They cannot both be the weakest. The | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
better candidate on either side would have beaten the other, that is | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
quite clear. Do you stand by that, or are you glad that your leader Mr | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
Farage has strong ties to him? I am, why wouldn't I be? For Ukip to have | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
that direct connection, it can be only good for a party. Were you not | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
out of step and Mr Farage is in step because it looks like your vote is | :31:10. | :31:12. | |
according to polling I have seemed like Mr Trump and his policies? Let | :31:13. | :31:18. | |
me finish. If I am the leader of Ukip I will not be involving myself | :31:19. | :31:21. | |
in foreign elections, I will because in trading here in this country | :31:22. | :31:25. | |
ensuring we get Ukip people elected to council chambers and get seats in | :31:26. | :31:27. | |
2020. The other thing your leader has in | :31:28. | :31:37. | |
common with Mr Trump is that he rather admires Vladimir Putin. Do | :31:38. | :31:43. | |
you? I don't. If you look at Putin's record, he has invaded Ukraine and | :31:44. | :31:50. | |
Georgia. I am absolutely not a fan. I think that Vladimir Putin is | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
pretty much a nasty man, but beyond that, I believe that in the Middle | :31:55. | :32:00. | |
East, he is generally getting it right in many areas. We need to | :32:01. | :32:06. | |
bring the conflict... Bombing civilians? We need to bring the | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
conflict to an end as fast as possible. The British and American | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
line before Donald Trump is to support rebels, including one is | :32:15. | :32:21. | |
affiliated to Al-Qaeda, to the Taliban. We need to clear these | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
people out and ensure that Syria becomes stable. This controversial | :32:26. | :32:33. | |
breaking point poster from during the referendum campaign. Mr Farage | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
unveiled it, there he is standing in front of it. You can bend it - do | :32:37. | :32:42. | |
you still? Yes, I think it was the wrong poster at the wrong time. I | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
was involved with the vote Leave campaign as well as Ukip's campaign, | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
and I felt strongly that those concerned about immigration were | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
already going to vote to leave because it was a fundamental truth | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
that unless we left the European Union we couldn't control | :32:58. | :32:59. | |
immigration. I thought it was about approaching those soft wavering | :33:00. | :33:08. | |
voters who weren't sure. I don't think I said it was racist, but it | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
was about sovereignty and trade and so forth. That was where we needed | :33:14. | :33:16. | |
to go. I was concerned it might put off some of those wavering voters. | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
People may well say, it was part of the winning campaign. It was Ukip | :33:22. | :33:27. | |
shock and all, which is what you stand for and what makes you | :33:28. | :33:34. | |
different. I said I would know how that I said I would not have gone | :33:35. | :33:37. | |
for that person and I thought it was wrong to do it just a week out from | :33:38. | :33:40. | |
the referendum. However, I believe it released legitimate concerns, | :33:41. | :33:47. | |
with a deluge of people making their way from the Middle East and Africa | :33:48. | :33:55. | |
into the European continent. Where is the low hanging fruit for you, | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
particularly in England? Is it Labour or Conservative voters? I | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
want to hang onto the Conservative voters we have got but I think the | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
low hanging fruit is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn won't sing the national | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
anthem, Emily Thornbury despises the English flag. Diane Abbott thinks | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
anyone talking about immigration is racist. Not to mention John | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
McDonnell's feelings about the IRA. Labour has ceased to be a party for | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
working people and I think Ukip is absolutely going to be that party. | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
It is clear, I absolutely concur with everything Suzanne has said. I | :34:31. | :34:36. | |
first voiced this back in 2008 that I believe Ukip has a fantastic | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
opportunity in working-class communities, and everyone laughed at | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
me. It is clear now that we resonate with working people, and you have | :34:45. | :34:46. | |
seen that in the Brexit result. Would you bring back the death | :34:47. | :34:53. | |
penalty? It wouldn't be Ukip policy. Absolutely not. Would you give more | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
money to the NHS and how would your fanatic? You like it is important to | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
fund it adequately, and it hasn't been to date. We promised in our | :35:02. | :35:11. | |
manifesto that we would give more money. Where does the money come | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
from? It is about tackling health tourism. I think the NHS is being | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
taken for a ride at the moment. That may be right, but where does the | :35:21. | :35:26. | |
money come from? It is about scaling back management in the NHS, because | :35:27. | :35:29. | |
that has burgeoned beyond control. They are spending far more money on | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
management. Where would you save money? We need to look at HS two, | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
foreign aid. Now we have Brexit and we will be saving on the membership | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
fee. We need to cut back on management, as Suzanne says. It | :35:45. | :35:47. | |
cannot be right that 51% of people who work for the NHS in England are | :35:48. | :35:54. | |
not clinically qualified. The NHS needs money now - where would you | :35:55. | :36:01. | |
get it? From HS two. That is capital spending spread over a long period. | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
Where will you get the money now? OK, another one. We spent ?25 | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
million every day on foreign aid to countries who sometimes are richer | :36:11. | :36:15. | |
than ourselves. Through the Barnett formula. You would take money away | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
from Scotland? Yes, I think they get far too much. PG tips or Earl Grey? | :36:20. | :36:35. | |
Colegrave. PG tips. Strictly come dancing or X Factor? Neither. | :36:36. | :36:43. | |
Strictly. I would love to be on it one day. There you go. Thank you | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics. | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now | :36:53. | :36:55. | |
Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead. | :36:56. | :37:04. | |
In a few minutes, what are ministers doing about climate change, | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
But first, the Welsh Government says the Chancellor should boost | :37:10. | :37:18. | |
investment and ditch austerity in his Autumn Statement this week. | :37:19. | :37:20. | |
Just before we came on air I spoke to the Finance Secretary Mark | :37:21. | :37:23. | |
I am glad to see Philip Hammond confirmed that there is likely to be | :37:24. | :37:37. | |
new investment in infrastructure, that is very important to us in | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
Wales, together with the Finance Minister is from Scotland and | :37:42. | :37:43. | |
Northern Ireland we have urged him to turn his back on failed policies | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
of austerity and to focus the Autumn Statement on growth in the economy. | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
Let's hope that what he said today gives us some hope that that is what | :37:53. | :38:01. | |
the statement will contain. But we are also led to believe these are | :38:02. | :38:04. | |
very uncertain times and we are told that the official forecasts may well | :38:05. | :38:07. | |
be predicting ?100 billion as a black hole in the economy because of | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
Brexit. Is this really the best time to be increasing investment if we | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
have that back already in the economy? I think it certainly is | :38:16. | :38:18. | |
because if you have predictions of a downturn in the economy as a result | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
of Brexit then the government must act. Now is the time for governments | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
to invest to try and counter the effect of Brexit, to put the UK | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
economy back on a firm growth path, that is how you get increased tax | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
receipts, that is how you have money available for public investment, you | :38:38. | :38:40. | |
create a virtuous circle. I hope that this Chancellor has understood | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
that and that his Autumn Statement will be a statement dedicated to | :38:46. | :38:51. | |
growth and fairness in the UK economy. Some of the things that you | :38:52. | :38:54. | |
say you would like to see, Swansea Bay, the barrage and the city | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
region, a growth deal from North Wales, I am assuming you are not | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
even hoping to see all of these things delivered. What are the main | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
priorities you would like to see, rather than a scatter-gun approach | :39:08. | :39:12. | |
of hoping for everything? The main thing is investment, investment in | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
the long-term future of the economy. In what, specifically? If you are | :39:18. | :39:20. | |
talking about spending plans from the UK demand, what do you want to | :39:21. | :39:25. | |
see? We want to see money come to Wales for capital expenditure and | :39:26. | :39:28. | |
then it will be for the Welsh Government to set out our own | :39:29. | :39:34. | |
priorities, whether that is in transport, economic restructure, | :39:35. | :39:37. | |
research bases of the future of the Welsh economy. We will make those | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
decisions when we know the quantum of investment that will come to | :39:43. | :39:45. | |
Wales. Alongside that there are a series of things that were promised | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
by the previous Chancellor and the Swansea City deal and the growth | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
deal for more fools are both things that the previous Chancellor | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
embarked on. We want them both to be embarked on. We want to see the | :40:00. | :40:07. | |
North Wales growth deal moved to the next phase and these are all things | :40:08. | :40:09. | |
that which the UK Government has already identified as important | :40:10. | :40:15. | |
investments for Wales and in my letter, I sent to the Chancellor, | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
now is the time to push forward on those items. We have also heard this | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
morning from John McDonnell, Labour's Shadow Chancellor for the | :40:24. | :40:26. | |
UK Government saying he was to see an extra ?500 billion spending over | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
the next ten years. Is that something, the scale of that, | :40:32. | :40:33. | |
something you would be supporting as well? We need an ambition for the UK | :40:34. | :40:40. | |
economy. But ?500 billion, is that something you would support quite | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
categorically? The figure is for John McDonnell to identify. I would | :40:46. | :40:48. | |
be interested in the consequential that for Wales but I definitely do | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
share that sense of an ambition to invest, to move away from the failed | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
policies of austerity that have dragged our economy down rather than | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
taking it forward. We need to see a party at Westminster that has that | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
sense of positive future ambition for Wales and for the UK economy, | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
investment while interest rates are at historic low, governments will | :41:12. | :41:18. | |
never borrow money more cheaply to Dave, that is definitely a passport | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
that I endorse. How much more one needs would you like -- how much | :41:23. | :41:29. | |
more money would you like to see the Welsh Government therefore being | :41:30. | :41:36. | |
given? A chance to borrow more money? As we take on greater | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
tax-raising responsibilities in Wales, so I am in negotiation with | :41:41. | :41:45. | |
the Chief Secretary to the Treasury to increase the borrowing limit for | :41:46. | :41:48. | |
the government in Wales. That is a simple and sensible equation. It is | :41:49. | :41:54. | |
what is done in Scotland. I was heartened by what Lord Nick Bourne | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
said on the house of the -- the floor of the House of Lords | :42:00. | :42:02. | |
recently. That is part of the overall negotiation on the fiscal | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
framework but we definitely expect to see a rise in the level of | :42:07. | :42:09. | |
borrowing that the Welsh Government will be able to undertake in the | :42:10. | :42:12. | |
future, as we have revenue streams to support it. | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
Climate change is still a priority for the Welsh Government, | :42:17. | :42:18. | |
so says Wales's Environment Secretary. | :42:19. | :42:19. | |
She has rejected claims that she has taken her foot off | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
the gas on the issue, after claims by green campaigners | :42:23. | :42:24. | |
that Brexit was now dominating the political agenda. | :42:25. | :42:26. | |
The Eiffel Tower shone bright green as the Paris agreement came into | :42:27. | :42:45. | |
force earlier this month. Less than a year after representatives from | :42:46. | :42:52. | |
nearly 200 countries gathered in the city to thrash out a global deal for | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
tackling climate change, Welsh Assembly Members recently gave the | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
document their backing to, but what progress has been made in Wales over | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
the past 12 months to help limit global warming? A year after we last | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
met on the day that agreement was signed, environmental campaigner | :43:12. | :43:18. | |
gave me her assessment over a coffee. We now have framework for | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
tackling climate change in Wales with the act adopted earlier this | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
year but now we really need to see action. We have a new assembly and a | :43:28. | :43:31. | |
new government and we have not seen the size that they are actually | :43:32. | :43:38. | |
working within a carbon budget. So there needs to be action across | :43:39. | :43:41. | |
government. How confident are you that climate change is a real | :43:42. | :43:48. | |
priority for this Welsh Government? Certainly as a result of Brexit, | :43:49. | :43:53. | |
other issues have been the priorities. That is the number one | :43:54. | :43:59. | |
issue for government and across Wales. But we do have to tackle | :44:00. | :44:10. | |
climate change and it has to be the top priority. Those are legal | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
obligations. We cannot leave it go a few years because of Brexit. | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
Meanwhile a recent report shows emissions in Wales have fallen by | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
18% compared to 1990 levels. That is still a long way off the target of a | :44:26. | :44:31. | |
40% reduction by 2020. Scotland and England have seen much greater cuts. | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
But when it comes to recycling, Wales leads the way in the UK with | :44:36. | :44:39. | |
55% of all waste collected in 2014 being recycled, reused or compost | :44:40. | :44:47. | |
it. What Wales needs to do is it needs to take lessons in the areas | :44:48. | :44:50. | |
that it is successful and take the lessons from elsewhere in the UK | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
where we have seen policies that the Scottish Government and the UK | :44:55. | :44:57. | |
Government in Westminster has been putting into place for example | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
around low emission vehicles, charging infrastructure support for | :45:02. | :45:08. | |
the industrial -based to create the low emission vehicles, we need to | :45:09. | :45:11. | |
take the lessons from elsewhere in the UK as well as from areas that | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
have succeeded in Wales. This year 's summit was held in Marrakesh and | :45:17. | :45:20. | |
the Welsh Environment Secretary was there. She insists the Welsh | :45:21. | :45:24. | |
Government takes its environmental responsibilities very seriously. It | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
is a huge priority for Welsh Government right across government | :45:29. | :45:32. | |
or my Cabinet Secretary colleagues are very aware of the | :45:33. | :45:35. | |
responsibilities they have. I have just been through a series of | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
meetings with them prior to my attendance at the meeting and I will | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
be meeting them again following being out in Marrakesh because as | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
you can imagine, it was an absolutely inspirational event so I | :45:48. | :45:49. | |
have come back with lots of ideas that I want to discuss with them. Of | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
course Brexit is an issue for us. It will have a profound effect | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
particularly within my portfolio on the agricultural young fisheries and | :45:59. | :46:01. | |
environmental sectors. It is very important that I balance the two | :46:02. | :46:07. | |
things. Last year your predecessor said the Welsh Government could | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
still reach that target of a 40% reduction in emissions by 2020. Do | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
you think that is possible? Yes, I do. It is an ambitious target and it | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
is challenging but if we are to have that transition, we need to make | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
sure that we do it. The Marrakesh talks were of course dominated by | :46:27. | :46:31. | |
reaction to Donald Trump 's win in the US. America's next president | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
once called global warming a hoax and promised to cancel the Paris | :46:37. | :46:39. | |
agreement. There are others closer to home will feel governments should | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
not waste time and money trying to stop climate change. I don't think | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
that human beings can tackle climate change. This is the point. We don't | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
know to what extent the climate has actually changed and is likely to | :46:55. | :46:57. | |
change any foreseeable future and even if we did, would we be able to | :46:58. | :47:01. | |
do anything about it as remark we think not. These campaigners making | :47:02. | :47:11. | |
their voices heard in Paris a year ago will continue to demand action | :47:12. | :47:17. | |
and here in Wales, the new future generations Commissioner is expected | :47:18. | :47:20. | |
to play her part in the fight against climate change. | :47:21. | :47:23. | |
I put some of those points to the Sophie Howe and asked her | :47:24. | :47:26. | |
whether she agreed that Brexit was pushing climate | :47:27. | :47:28. | |
Brexit is obviously the big issue and challenge that is facing the | :47:29. | :47:39. | |
government at the moment. It was something that they were not | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
expecting. Not just in terms of the Welsh Government, it has obviously | :47:44. | :47:47. | |
spun governments across the UK and abroad into a bit of a tailspin. I | :47:48. | :47:53. | |
suppose the situation varies to be expected. We are going to have to | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
however make sure that all of those other issues that we are expecting | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
the Welsh Government to act on don't fall down to the bottom of the pile. | :48:03. | :48:08. | |
How do we ensure that? We saw back in June, you wrote a very strongly | :48:09. | :48:10. | |
worded letter to the economy secretary of the M4, outlining your | :48:11. | :48:16. | |
concerns and telling him how you thought he should be going ahead | :48:17. | :48:19. | |
with it. Has anything changed since that? I have had a response in which | :48:20. | :48:27. | |
the government in my view shows that they are trying to retrofit the | :48:28. | :48:33. | |
principles of the act. There is an issue therein that the part of the | :48:34. | :48:39. | |
decision they can process on the M4 came into effect before the future | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
generations at did but nevertheless, it is the government 's own | :48:44. | :48:46. | |
legislation so they should be applying those principles. I think | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
what that issue demonstrates and of course the issues around the M4 are | :48:51. | :48:53. | |
very much linked back to our approach on climate change as well, | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
but what that demonstrates is that what the future generations are | :48:58. | :49:00. | |
going to require is a massive cultural change in the way that we | :49:01. | :49:03. | |
start to think about taking decisions in Wales. That needs to | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
come from the top but it seems from what you are saying, the Welsh | :49:09. | :49:10. | |
Government is not really showing that leadership that they should be | :49:11. | :49:14. | |
showing? I think the Welsh Government probably need to do more. | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
I think they have got their own challenges in doing that because | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
they have an infrastructure which for very many years have been taking | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
decisions in a particular way, sometimes in a silo would wave, not | :49:29. | :49:35. | |
necessarily understanding the impact of an issue in another area. | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
Budgetary pressures are a massive issue. But then, as the | :49:40. | :49:48. | |
Commissioner, where does your role coming to a question mark I guess | :49:49. | :49:51. | |
you can write a letter and tell them they should be improving but as you | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
say, they have budgets to think about and other considerations. | :49:57. | :49:59. | |
Where is your influence coming into this? There is a few things that I | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
can have and will continue to do. I think I can highlight the areas | :50:05. | :50:09. | |
where they really need to be taking action and upping their game and I | :50:10. | :50:12. | |
think climate change is one of them. I can help in terms of providing the | :50:13. | :50:18. | |
evidence. I can help them in terms of supporting them around the | :50:19. | :50:21. | |
culture change that is needed so that is by taking an issue and kind | :50:22. | :50:24. | |
of modelling out what would it mean to apply the future generations act, | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
to be thinking about the long-term and prevention and all the knock-on | :50:30. | :50:33. | |
effects around a range of policy areas and so on and then ultimately, | :50:34. | :50:38. | |
I have powers to challenge. I cannot compel public bodies or the | :50:39. | :50:43. | |
government to do particular things or to take particular decisions but | :50:44. | :50:46. | |
I can challenge the way in which they approach their decision-making. | :50:47. | :50:49. | |
There have been complaints for years that more are needed to cope | :50:50. | :50:53. | |
In a moment two AMs give us their view, | :50:54. | :50:56. | |
but the Presiding Officer says she's already convinced. | :50:57. | :51:04. | |
This place is taking on more responsibility, both legislatively | :51:05. | :51:12. | |
and fiscally and therefore there is... There will be a price to pay | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
if we don't do our work effectively here because of too few Assembly | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
Members and that is why the time is absolutely right for this assembly | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
to look at increasing the number of members. | :51:25. | :51:26. | |
Here with me are two new AMs who have different | :51:27. | :51:28. | |
Labour's Hefin David and Mark Reckless from Ukip. | :51:29. | :51:35. | |
Thank you both for coming in this morning. You have just started as an | :51:36. | :51:42. | |
Assembly Member. Was it more work than you had anticipated? No, it was | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
about what I expected. I was working full-time and I was a councillor and | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
chair of the committee. It is a different vocation to being a | :51:53. | :51:56. | |
councillor. My working week would be Monday is constituency day with | :51:57. | :52:00. | |
constituency meetings, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, chock-a-block | :52:01. | :52:03. | |
with assembly business and Friday and Saturday mornings, I am working | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
on casework. You used to be an MP, Mark. How does it compare? I think | :52:09. | :52:15. | |
there is a better working culture in the assembly. In Parliament, outside | :52:16. | :52:19. | |
of Prime Minister's Questions or a controversial statement, it would be | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
rare to have even one in ten MPs in the chamber, whereas in the | :52:24. | :52:26. | |
Assembly, it is the norm that most people are therefore most business | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
and people also then serve on two or sometimes three committees. I am one | :52:31. | :52:37. | |
of these people that watch as primary very often. And you see | :52:38. | :52:40. | |
people there, they are not contributing all that much to | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
debate. Perhaps they could beat doing some more scrutiny work | :52:46. | :52:47. | |
elsewhere rather than being sitting in a debate that might be of | :52:48. | :52:52. | |
interest -- might not be of interest to them. Maybe but it is a good | :52:53. | :52:55. | |
culture that you have most people therefore most items of business. | :52:56. | :53:05. | |
But in Parliament, there is an awful lot of hanging around and just | :53:06. | :53:07. | |
waiting for votes and the opportunity to do constituency work | :53:08. | :53:11. | |
perhaps in your office but you don't have that central of most people | :53:12. | :53:16. | |
being in the chamber and coming to almost all their committees and from | :53:17. | :53:19. | |
that sense, I think the Assembly, people do actually work hard. We | :53:20. | :53:24. | |
have been hearing for years, the Richards commission backing 2002, | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
saying there needs to be more Assembly Members. With the | :53:30. | :53:31. | |
additional powers that you have, possibly on taxation coming up very | :53:32. | :53:36. | |
soon, do you agree that there needs to be more Assembly Members can mark | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
far be it for me to disagree with the presiding officer but it is not | :53:41. | :53:43. | |
something that keeps me awake at night. In my constituency I am | :53:44. | :53:48. | |
concerned about how we are going to bring jobs and good jobs to the | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
northern valleys and other Assembly Members are concerned about similar | :53:54. | :53:55. | |
things in their constituencies but if we are to achieve these things, | :53:56. | :53:59. | |
we need a functional democracy. Asking the question is a good thing. | :54:00. | :54:03. | |
Do we need Assembly Members to be taking on more work and one of the | :54:04. | :54:07. | |
things I would also say is let's take a nonparty government minister, | :54:08. | :54:13. | |
does a government minister want more or less Assembly Members | :54:14. | :54:19. | |
scrutinising their work, more or less Mark miraculous examination | :54:20. | :54:21. | |
what they are up to and also I speak for myself as a backbencher in the | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
governing party, people like me with a job to do as a critical friend, is | :54:27. | :54:31. | |
that a good thing to have more scrutinising government policy? | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
Presumably, yes. So you are in favour of having more. But maybe not | :54:36. | :54:42. | |
on the streets campaigning for it. It is not something that keeps me | :54:43. | :54:45. | |
awake but it is something I would like to have a conversation about. | :54:46. | :54:53. | |
Mark Reckless, Ukip 's manifesto was quite clear, saying you would oppose | :54:54. | :54:57. | |
any more Assembly Members. Now that you are an Assembly Member, does | :54:58. | :55:04. | |
that still hold? That is the position we have taken. And I think | :55:05. | :55:07. | |
it is really difficult to make the case that we should have more | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
politicians, let alone that people should get less money spent on | :55:13. | :55:16. | |
public services or pay more in taxes in order to pay for more politicians | :55:17. | :55:19. | |
and I think that is the real difficulty and partly we have, I | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
think, underemployed Welsh MPs at Westminster who cannot vote on the | :55:26. | :55:28. | |
laws we vote for most of the devolved areas but also cannot fault | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
on most stages of laws that only affect England and there is 40 of | :55:33. | :55:35. | |
them with much smaller constituencies than average. But | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
there will be fewer of them by possibly the next election. You are | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
answering it it with a different question. Do there need to be more | :55:46. | :55:55. | |
semi-members? We suggest MPs, perhaps also a panel of local | :55:56. | :55:58. | |
councillors to help with some of the work but we are prepared to engage | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
with the debate. I do respect the presiding officer and I want to | :56:03. | :56:06. | |
listen to what she says but it does unnerve me when I hear some people | :56:07. | :56:12. | |
talking that we should have 80, 90, 100, with no regard to the cost of | :56:13. | :56:16. | |
that. If people wanted to make a case for ten or 15 or some much | :56:17. | :56:21. | |
smaller number and say this is where we would make savings in order to | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
pay for it then I would want to listen to what they say. It is not a | :56:26. | :56:30. | |
know on a matter of principle from you then. No more costly increases | :56:31. | :56:38. | |
was the manifesto. But he would be happy to have a few more. We are not | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
convinced because we do not think it is to easy to justify the spending. | :56:44. | :56:50. | |
I cherished committee where most of the areas where we work are in | :56:51. | :56:55. | |
theory devolved but in practice, the power lives at European level and I | :56:56. | :56:58. | |
want to see those powers properly used and I would like to see it | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
possible to do it with the existing budget that we have. There were 108 | :57:03. | :57:10. | |
Assembly Members in Northern Ireland serving a smaller population. We are | :57:11. | :57:15. | |
the smallest Parliament in the UK. One of the things that Mark Reckless | :57:16. | :57:18. | |
has raised is the number of MPs and there are going to be fewer MPs and | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
I was at a seminar with Mark on Tuesday morning in which they were | :57:23. | :57:25. | |
raising legal concerns about the capacity of the assembly to deal | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
with Brexit and Mark was concerned with that. I think there is a | :57:30. | :57:35. | |
legitimate case. I agree with what he says about the chamber. There is | :57:36. | :57:40. | |
clearly a working... Although he was not there for my debate last | :57:41. | :57:46. | |
Wednesday. The short debates are the one exception. But in terms of use | :57:47. | :57:54. | |
saying there need to be more, be a number. Northern Ireland with a | :57:55. | :58:02. | |
different set of needs therefore the legislative year. How many are | :58:03. | :58:07. | |
needed? I think we need to open a conversation. What is the | :58:08. | :58:16. | |
realistic... Open it with a number. David Rowlands said to me, I didn't | :58:17. | :58:19. | |
expect the work to be this hard and I wasn't expecting it to be so much. | :58:20. | :58:23. | |
To be fair, he did also say he was enjoying it. We need to have a | :58:24. | :58:27. | |
conversation about what that working tales before we talk about numbers. | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
I am not going to give you a number because it is up to the public | :58:33. | :58:37. | |
conversation to indicate the kind of assembly and democracy we want but | :58:38. | :58:41. | |
we need a democracy that enables us to do our work. One of the big | :58:42. | :58:45. | |
difference is I guess between Westminster and Cardiff Bay are the | :58:46. | :58:49. | |
hours, far longer hours in Westminster, family friendly hours | :58:50. | :58:54. | |
in Cardiff Bay. Before we look at more Assembly Members, increasing | :58:55. | :58:57. | |
the numbers, should we look at few days off, fewer holidays and longer | :58:58. | :59:02. | |
hours? I think the longer hours at Westminster are particular the well | :59:03. | :59:07. | |
used. But you say the working conditions in the Sevilla better. If | :59:08. | :59:10. | |
you could lengthen those hours but still be working in a more efficient | :59:11. | :59:16. | |
way? It is different if you can live... I represent an area close to | :59:17. | :59:22. | |
Cardiff and that makes it much easier to maintain a family life and | :59:23. | :59:27. | |
other Assembly Members commuting from North Wales or West Wales. | :59:28. | :59:34. | |
Darren Millar was saying it takes in four hours to get to Cardiff Bay. If | :59:35. | :59:40. | |
he was an MP, his trip would be easier. It is not universally family | :59:41. | :59:45. | |
friendly. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday night, I am back quite | :59:46. | :59:50. | |
late. Thank you both for coming in this morning. That is it from me. | :59:51. | :59:54. | |
Diolch am wylio - thanks for watching, time | :59:55. | :59:55. | |
never happened and will not happen in four years. It is subject we | :59:56. | :00:01. | |
should spend more time on. Back to you. | :00:02. | :00:10. | |
What will the Chancellor have to say in his first big economic statement? | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
What impact will the forecasters say Brexit will have on the economy? | :00:15. | :00:17. | |
And who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in | :00:18. | :00:20. | |
Well, the Shadow Chancellor and the Chancellor have both been | :00:21. | :00:35. | |
touring the television studios this morning. | :00:36. | :00:36. | |
Let's be clear, a lot of this is going to be gimmicks and press | :00:37. | :00:43. | |
As I've said, in the pipeline, we've only | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
seen one in five delivered to construction, that's all. | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
So a lot of this will be a repeat of what | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
I'm not going to reveal what I'm going to say on | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
We don't have unlimited capacity, as one might | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
imagine from listening to John McDonnell, to borrow | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
hundreds of billions of pounds more for discretionary spending. | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
That simply doesn't exist if we're going to | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
retain this country's hard-won credibility in the financial markets | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
if we are going to remain an attractive place for business to | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
We didn't learn very much, Helen, but the papers were briefed this | :01:19. | :01:32. | |
morning that there will be another ?1.3 billion for roads and things | :01:33. | :01:40. | |
like that. ?1.3 billion is 0.08% of our GDP. Not exactly an | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
infrastructure investment programme, is it? Yellow like I have to say, it | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
was not thrilling to read the details. -- I have to say... It is | :01:50. | :01:58. | |
the first big financial statement that is going to come and I think | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
there will be a big row about the OBE are forecast because they cannot | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
set out a range, they have to commit to one forecast. Everything they do | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
is incredibly political. DOB are is on a hiding to nothing. -- DOB are | :02:12. | :02:20. | |
-- the Office for Budget Responsibility. I don't know how | :02:21. | :02:28. | |
they will square the circle. It is an interesting week. It is all about | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
the economy and public finances and we don't have to talk about Brexit | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
until next Sunday, but no, I have a terrible feeling that by the end of | :02:37. | :02:47. | |
Wednesday afternoon we will be screaming and shouting about how | :02:48. | :02:50. | |
Brexit is going to be for the economy. Just imagine the Treasury | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
comes out with his forecast that it is going to collapse growth and | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
collapsed Treasury takings, people will be apoplectic. Until now, the | :02:59. | :03:05. | |
economy has continued to grow strongly. Pretty well. They cannot | :03:06. | :03:12. | |
say, we have noticed it slowing down and that will continue. They have to | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
take a punt if they think it will slow down. It affects the | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
Chancellor's figures, because the more they say it is slowing down, | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
and I have seen that it will go from 2% down to 1.4%, the more the | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
Chancellor's deficit rises even without any more tax cuts and | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
spending. Absolutely. I think Tom is right. What we will see this week is | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
a continuation of the debate we have been having all along. If the Office | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
for Budget Responsibility has negative and gloomy predictions, | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
there will be howls of agony, and rightly howls of frustration from | :03:47. | :03:54. | |
Brexiteers who will say that all the dire predictions from before the | :03:55. | :03:57. | |
referendum have not come to pass and now you are talking things down in a | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
way that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The money for roads, you | :04:02. | :04:08. | |
were dismissive about it, but every little helps. I don't dismiss it, I | :04:09. | :04:15. | |
say it doesn't amount to a fiscal stimulus in macro economic terms. | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
I'm sure if you are on that road, it will be useful. They are going to | :04:21. | :04:28. | |
build a super highway between Oxford and Cambridge. I would like to see | :04:29. | :04:38. | |
them go out to Japan and learn how to fill a hole in two days. I would | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
suggest the road from Oxford to Cambridge is not for the just | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
managing classes, even though it goes through Milton Keynes, and that | :04:47. | :04:55. | |
simply freezing due freezing fuel duty isn't going to hack it, either. | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
These just about managing people are potentially quite a big band. With | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
income tax rises, it means anything you do to help them is incredibly | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
expensive. The universal credit freeze is an interesting example of | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
that. Philip Hammond sounded ambivalent about it after | :05:14. | :05:21. | |
pre-briefings that it might not, the cuts might not go ahead. There are | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
people who are in work but because they are low paid don't have the | :05:27. | :05:32. | |
number of hours, they require welfare benefits to top up their | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
pay, and these welfare benefits, as it stands, are frozen until 2020, | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
and yet inflation is now starting to rise. That's a problem for the just | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
managing people. Correct. It is worse than that, because we are | :05:47. | :05:55. | |
talking about April 2017 when tax credits become universal credits, so | :05:56. | :06:02. | |
the squeeze will be greater. We will get a small highway between a couple | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
of university towns, but if he has any money left to spend at all, it | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
will be on some pretty seismic jazzman for the just about managing | :06:10. | :06:16. | |
people. I am so glad we're not calling them Jams on this programme, | :06:17. | :06:25. | |
because it is a patronising tone. What the Chancellor and Shadow | :06:26. | :06:32. | |
Chancellor did not confront is that Mr Trump's election is a watershed | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
in terms of being able to borrow cheaply. The Federal Reserve is | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
about to start raising rates. The days of cheap borrowing for | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
governments could be coming to an end. You can feel a bit sorry for | :06:46. | :06:48. | |
labour here because after having had six years of being told that we need | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
a surplus and these things are important, we can't deny the | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
deficit, we have switched now and the first thing that Philip Hammond | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
did was to scrap George Osborne's borrowing targets. He has given | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
himself more wriggle room than George Osborne had. He has and it | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
will cost them more. Debt servicing will now rise as a cost. Where is | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
the next political earthquake going to happen? | :07:18. | :07:24. | |
It could be Italy, or the French elections coming up next spring. | :07:25. | :07:31. | |
Now, who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in next | :07:32. | :07:33. | |
year's French Presidential elections? | :07:34. | :07:34. | |
Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans, | :07:35. | :07:36. | |
are selecting their candidate in the first round of | :07:37. | :07:38. | |
Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans, | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
are selecting their candidate in the first round of | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
Let's speak to our correspondent in Paris, Hugh Schofield. | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
Welcome to the programme. Three main candidates, the former -- two former | :07:49. | :08:01. | |
prime ministers and Nicolas Sarkozy, the former president. It is not | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
clear who the front runner is. Robbins it is quite an exciting | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
race, because four weeks it did look as if it was going to be Juppe. It | :08:10. | :08:24. | |
is a two round race. Two go through and the idea is that they rally all | :08:25. | :08:27. | |
the support together. It looked like the first round would be dominated | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
by Juppe and Nicolas Sarkozy, and there was a clear binary combination | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
there, because Sarkozy was looking for squeamish far right voters. In | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
other words, veering clearly to the right and far right on immigration | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
and identity issues. And Juppe is the opposite, saying we had to | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
appeal to the centre. That was what it looked like. But the third | :08:53. | :08:59. | |
candidate has made this really quite staggering surge in the last few | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
days. There was a debate on Thursday and he was deemed to have won it on | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
television. He is coming up strongly, and I wouldn't be at all | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
surprised to see him go through, which would be interesting from a | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
British perspective, because if the becomes president, he will be the | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
first president with a British wife. His wife Penelope is Welsh. | :09:22. | :09:29. | |
We will have to leave it there. I would suggest that the reason it is | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
fascinating is that whoever wins this primary for the centre-right | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
party is likely to be the next president, and who the next | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
president is will be very important for Britain in these Brexit | :09:42. | :09:43. | |
negotiations. Nothing will really happen until it is determined. Then | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
after the German elections in October. I would add one more | :09:48. | :09:53. | |
constituent part. The most important thing about the race is who can stop | :09:54. | :10:02. | |
Marine Le Pen. Marine Le Pen will almost be one of the ones in the | :10:03. | :10:10. | |
run-off. The Socialists don't expect much. Francois Hollande is done. | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
There is too much of a cliff to climb. Which one of these three | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
centre-right candidates can stop Marine Le Pen? We have had Brexit | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
and Trump, but we could also have Marine Le Pen. If it is Sarkozy, it | :10:26. | :10:34. | |
is the battle of the right. In some areas, he has moved to the right of | :10:35. | :10:41. | |
marine Le Pen. I suppose he feels he has do in order to take the wind out | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
of our sails. You wonder if she could succeed later on if she does | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
not this time. Talking to French analysts last night, there was | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
suggesting that she could not do it this time but could win the next | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
time. All the events in France over the last year seemed to provide the | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
most propitious circumstances for her to do well, and particularly if | :11:01. | :11:07. | |
you throw in Trump and Brexit. Suppose it is Mr Sarkozy, and he | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
goes through and wins the Republican nomination, and he and Marine Le Pen | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
go through to the second round, that would mean, think about it, is that | :11:15. | :11:22. | |
a lot of French socialist voters and those on the father left would have | :11:23. | :11:29. | |
to grit their teeth and vote for Nicolas Sarkozy. They might not do | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
it. We might see what we saw in America, where lots of potential | :11:36. | :11:46. | |
Clinton voters did not turn out. You got politicians like Melanchon on | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
the far left saying there are foreign workers taking bread out of | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
French workers' mounts. We sometimes forget, because we tend to emphasise | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
the National of the National front, but actually, there are economic | :12:00. | :12:14. | |
policy is quite Bennite. Sarkozy is the Hillary Clinton of the French | :12:15. | :12:23. | |
elections. He is Mr establishment. Juppe and the other third candidate | :12:24. | :12:30. | |
are the same. You have to re-establish candidates running | :12:31. | :12:32. | |
against an antiestablishment candidate. There are populist | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
economic policies from the National front. The other three want to raise | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
the retirement age and cut back on the 35 hour week, which are not | :12:42. | :12:50. | |
classic electoral appeals. Mr Juppe used to be the Mayor of Bordeaux. | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
And we are the biggest importers of claret, so that could have an | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
effect. In 2002, it was Jack Shear against John Marine Le Pen, and the | :12:59. | :13:05. | |
socialist campaign slogan was, vote for the Crook, not the fascist. We | :13:06. | :13:12. | |
will see what they come up with this time. | :13:13. | :13:14. | |
The Daily Politics is back at noon tomorrow on BBC Two, | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
where on Wednesday I will have full coverage of the Chancellor's Autumn | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
But remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:23. | :14:01. | |
That could be a pile of workers on't scrapheap. | :14:02. | :14:07. | |
It's not just the end of an industry - | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
Everybody's absolutely devastated by it. | :14:11. | :14:13. |