26/03/2017 Sunday Politics West Midlands

It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics.

The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone,

but do the security services have the resources and

We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons.

As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of

Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power

Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job

And in the Midlands, our MPs and and the party's

And in the Midlands, our MPs and their reflections on naturists

outrage. I'll be And with me - as always -

the best and the brightest political panel in the business -

Toby Young, Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting

throughout the programme. First, it was the most

deadly terrorist attack The attacker was shot dead trying

to storm Parliament, but not before he'd murdered four

people and injured 50 - one of those is still in a critical

condition in hospital. His target was the very

heart of our democracy, the Palace of Westminster,

and he came within metres of the Prime Minister

and senior Cabinet ministers. Without the quick actions

of the Defence Secretary's close protection detail,

fortuitously in the vicinity at the time, the outcome

could have been even worse. Janan Ganesh it is four days now,

getting on. What thoughts should we be having this weekend? First of

all, Theresa May's Parliamentary response was exemplary. In many

ways, the moment she arrived as prime minister and her six years as

Home Secretary showed a positive way. No other serving politician is

as steeped in counterterror and national security experience as she

is and I think it showed. As to whether politics is going now, it

looks like the Government will put more pressure on companies like

Google and Facebook to monitor sensor radical content that flows

through their channels, and I wonder whether beyond that the Government,

not just our Government but around the world, will start to open this

question of, during a terror attack, as it is unfolding, should there be

restrictions on what can appear on social media? I was on Twitter at

the time last week, during the attack, and people were posting

things which may have been useful to the perpetrators, not on that

occasion but future occasions. Should there be restrictions on what

and how much people can post while an attack is unfolding? I think we

have learned that this is like the weather, it is going to happen, it

is going to happen all over the world and in every country and we

deal with it well, we deal with it stoically, perhaps we are more used

to it than some. We had the IRA for years, we know how to make personal

risk assessments, how to know the chances of being in the wrong place

at the wrong time are infinitesimal, so people in London didn't say, I'm

not going to go to the centre of London today, everything carried on

just the same. Because we know that the odds of it, being unlucky, are

very small. Life is dangerous, this is another very small risk and it is

the danger of being alive. I think from an Isis Islamist propaganda

point of view, it showed just what a poor target London and the House of

Commons is, and it is hard to imagine the emergency services and

local people, international visitors, reacting much better than

they did. And the fact that our Muslim mayor was able to make an

appearance so quickly afterwards shows, I think, that we are not city

riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice. It couldn't really have been a

better advertisement for the values that is attacking.

OK, thank you for that. So, four days after the attack,

what more do we know The police have made 11 arrests,

but only one remains Here's Adam with the latest

on the investigation. According to a police timeline,

that's how long it took Khalid Masood to drive

through a crowd on Westminster to crash his car into

Parliament's perimeter... to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer,

before being shot by a bodyguard The public are leaving tributes

to the dead at Westminster. The family of PC Palmer released

a statement saying: "We would like to express our

gratitude to the people who were with Keith in his last

moments and who were There was nothing more

you could have done, you did your best and we are just

grateful he was not alone." Investigators say Masood's motive

may have gone to the grave with him. Officers think he acted alone,

despite reports he spent a WhatsApp The Home Secretary now has

such encrypted messaging There should be no place

for terrorists to hide. We need to make sure that

organisations like WhatsApp, and there are plenty of others

like that, don't provide a secret place for terrorists

to communicate with each other. It used to be that people

would steam open envelopes or just listen in on phones when they wanted

to find out what people were doing, legally, through warrantry,

but in this situation we need to make sure

that our intelligence services have the ability to get

into situations like encrypted She will ask the tech industry

to suggest solutions at a meeting this week,

although she didn't rule out But for those caught up

in the attack, perhaps it will be ..not the policy implications that

will echo the loudest. We're joined now from the Hague

by the Director of Europol, the European Police Agency,

Rob Wainwright. What role has Europol played in the

aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I can tell you we are actively

supporting the investigation, because it is a live case I cannot

of course go into the details, but to give you some context, Andrew,

this is one of about 80 counterterrorist cases we have been

supporting across Europe this year, using a platform to shed thousands

of intelligence messages between the very large counterterrorist

community in Europe, and also tracking flows of terrorist finance,

illegal firearms, and monitoring this terrible propaganda online as

well. All of that is being made available now to the Metropolitan

Police in London for this case. Do we know if there is any European

link to those who may have inspired or directed Khalid Massoud? That is

an active part of the inquiry being led by Metropolitan Police and it is

not for me to comment or speculate on that. There are links of course

in terms of the profile of the attacker and the way in which he

launched these terrible events in Westminster, and those that we've

seen, for example, in the Berlin Christmas market last year and the

attack in Nice in the summer of last year, clear similarities between the

fact that the attackers involved have criminal background, somewhat

dislocated from society, each of them using a hired or stolen vehicle

to deliberately aim at pedestrians in a crowded place and using a

secondary weapon, whether it is a gun or a knife. So we are seeing a

trend, I think, of the kind of attacks across Europe in the last

couple of years and some of that at least was played out unfortunately

in Westminster this week as well. Mass and was known to the emergency

services, so were many of those involved in the Brussels, Paris and

Berlin attacks, so something is going wrong here, we are not

completely across this, are we? Actually most attacks are being

stopped. This was I think at least the 14th terrorist plot or attempted

attack in Britain since 2013 and the only one that has got through, and

that fits a picture of what we see in France last year, 17 attempted

attacks that were stopped, for example. Unfortunately some of them

get through. But people on the security services' Radar getting

through, in Westminster, Brussels, Paris and Berlin. There is clearly

something we are not doing that could stop that. Again, if you look

at what happened in Berlin and at least the first indications from

what police are saying in London, these are people that haven't really

appeared on Baha'i target list of the authorities, they are on the

edge at best of radicalised community -- on the high target

list. When you are dealing with a dispersed community of thousands of

radicalised, Senate radicalised individuals, it is very difficult to

monitor them 24/7, very difficult when these people, almost out of the

blue and carry out the attacks that they did. I think you have to find a

sense of perspective here around the work and the pressures of the work

and the difficult target choices that police and security authorities

have to make around Europe. The Home Secretary here in London said this

morning it is time to tackle apps like WhatsApp, which we believe

Massoud was using, because they encrypt from end to end and it is

difficult for the security services to know what is happening there.

What do you say, are you up for that? Across the hundreds of cases

we have supported in recent years there is no doubt that encryption,

encrypted communications are becoming more and more prominent in

the way terrorists communicate, more and more of a problem, therefore, a

real challenge for investigators, and that the heart of this is a

stark inconsistency between the ability of the police to lawfully

intercept telephone calls, but not when those messages are exchanged

via a social media messaging board, for example, and that is an

inconsistency in society and we have to find a solution through

appropriate legislation perhaps of these technologies and law

enforcement agencies working in a more constructive way. So you back

that? I agree that there is certainly a problem, absolutely. We

know there was a problem, I'm trying to find out if you agree with the

Home Secretary's solution? I agree certainly with her calls for changes

to be made. What the legislative solution for that is of course for

her and other lawmakers to decide but from my point of view, yes, I

would agree something has to be done to make sure we can apply more

consistent interception of communication in all parts of the

way in which terrorists invade our lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol,

thank you very much. Here with me in the studio now

is the Leader of the House What did last week's attack tell us

about the security of the Palace of Westminster? It told us that we are

looked after by some very courageous, very professional police

officers. There is clearly going to be a lessons learned with you, as

you would expect after any incident of this kind. That will look very

carefully at what worked well but also whether there are changes that

need to be made, that is already under way. And that is being run by

professionals, by the police and security director at Parliament...

Palace authorities, we will get reports from the professionals,

particularly our own Parliamentary security director, and just as

security matters in parliament are kept under constant review, if there

are changes that need to be made as a result, then they will need to be

made. Let's look at some of the issues it has thrown up, as we get

some distance from these appalling events when our first reaction was

always the people who lose their lives and suffer, and then we start

to become a bit more analytical. Is it true that the authorities removed

armed guards from Cowbridge gate, where the attacker made his entry,

because they looked to threatening for tourists? -- carriage gate. No,

the idea that a protest from MPs led to operational changes simply not

the case. What happened in the last couple of years is that the security

arrangements in new Palace Yard have actually been strengthened, but I

don't think your view was would expect me to go into a detailed

commentary upon operational security matters. Why were the armed guards

removed? There are armed guards at all times in the Palace of

Westminster, it is a matter for the security authorities and in

particular for the police and direct command of those officers to decide

how they are best deployed. Is it because, as some from Scotland Yard

sources have reported to the papers this morning, was it done because of

staffing shortages? I'm in no position to comment on the details

of the operation but my understanding is that the number of

people available is what the police and the security authorities working

together have decided to deploy and that they think was commensurate

with the threat that we faced. Is it not of concern that as the incident

unfolded the gates were left unguarded by armed and unarmed, they

were just unguarded, so much so that, as it was going on, a career

with a parcel on a moped at was able to drive through? -- up career. I

think we will need to examine that case as part of looking into any

lessons learned, but what I don't yet know, because the police are

still interviewing everybody involved, witnesses and police

officers involved, was exactly who was standing where in the vicinity

of the murder at a particular time. We have seen pictures, the gates

were unguarded as people were concentrating on what was happening

to the police man and to the attacker, but the delivery man was

able to come through the gates with a parcel?! You have seen a

particular camera angle, I think it is important before we rush to

judgment, and we shouldn't be pointing fingers, we need... We are

trying to get to the bottom of it. To get to the bottom of it means we

have to look at what all the witnesses and all the police

officers involved say about what happened, and then there needs to be

a decision taken about what if any changes need to be made in light of

that. We know the attacker was stopped in

his tracks by the Defence Secretary's bodyguard, where was the

armed roving unit that had replaced the armed guard at the gate? I

cannot comment on operation details but my understanding is there were

other armed officers who would have been able to prevent the attacker

from getting to the chamber, as has been alleged it would be possible

for him to do. Were you aware that a so-called table top simulation,

carried out by Scotland Yard and the Parliamentary authorities, ended

with four terrorists in this simulation able to storm parliament

and killed dozens of MPs? No, that is the first time that has been

mentioned to me. You are the leader of the house. These matters are

dealt with by security professionals who are involved, they are advised

by a security committee, chaired by the Deputy Speaker, but we do not

debate operational details in public. I'm not asking for a debate,

I raise this because it's been reported because it's quite clear

that after this simulation, it raised serious questions about the

security of the palace. Actions should have followed. What I've said

to you is that these matters are kept under constant review and that

there are always changes made both in the deployment of individual

officers and security guards of the palace staff and other plans to

strengthen the hard security of the perimeter. If you look back at

Hansard December last year, they was a plan already been brought forward

to strengthen the security at carriage Gates, looking at questions

of access. Will there be armed guards now? You need to look not

just at armed guards, you need to look at the entirety of the security

engagements including fencing. There's lots about the security we

don't need to know and shouldn't know, but whether or not there are

armed guards is something we will find out quite soon and I'm asking

you if you think there should be. If you think the judgment is by our

security experts that there need to be more armed guards in certain

places, then they will be deployed accordingly, but I think before we

rush to make conclusions about lessons to be learned from

Wednesday's appalling attack, it is important the police are allowed to

get on with completing the interview of witnesses and their own officers,

and then that there is considered view taken about what changes might

need to be made and then they will be implemented. Let me come onto the

triggering of Article 50 that begins our negotiations to exit the

European Union. It will happen on Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told

Germany's most popular newspaper that he wants to make an example of

the UK to make everyone realise it's not worth leaving the EU. What do

you make of that? I think all sorts of things are said in advance of

negotiations beginning. Clearly the commission will want to ensure the

EU 27 holds together. As the Prime Minister has said, that is a British

national interest as well. She has been very clear... What do you make

of President Juncker's remark? It doesn't surprise me ahead of

negotiations but I think if rational mutual interest is to the fore that

it's perfectly possible for an agreement to be negotiated between

the UK and our 27 friends and allies that addresses all of the issues

from trade to security, police cooperation, foreign policy

co-operation, works for all countries. The EU wants to agree a

substantial divorce bill before it will even discuss any future UK EU

relations, what do you make of that? Article 50 says the terms of exit

need to be negotiated in the context of the kind of future relationship

that's going to exist between the departing country and the remaining

member states. It seems it is simply not possible to separate those two.

Clearly there will need to be a discussion about joint assets and

join liabilities but I think if we all keep to the fore the fact we

will continue to be neighbours, we will continue to be essential allies

and trading partners, then it is possible to come to a

deal that works for all size. The question is do you agree the divorce

bill first and then look at the subsequent relations we will have or

do you do them both in parallel? Article 50 itself says they have to

run together. Do you think they have to be done together or sequentially?

I think it is impossible to separate the two but we will get into

negotiations very soon and then once David Davis is sitting down with

Michel Barnier and others and the national governments become involved

too, then I hope we can make steady progress. An early deal about each

other's citizens would be a good piece of low hanging fruit. Is the

Government willing to pay a substantial divorce bill? The Prime

Minister has said we don't rule out some kind of continuing payments,

for example there may be EU programmes in the future in which we

want to continue to participate. 50 billion? We don't envisage long-term

payments of vast sums of money. So 50 billion isn't even the Government

ballpark? You are tempting me to get into the detail of negotiation, that

is something that will be starting very soon and let's leave it to the

negotiations. During the referendum there was no talk from the Leave

side about any question of separation bill, now the talk is of

50 billion and I'm trying to find out if the British government thinks

that of amount is on your radar. The Government is addressing the

situation in which we now are, which is that we have a democratic

obligation to implement the decision of the people in the referendum last

year, and that we need to do that in a way that maximises the

opportunity, the future prosperity and security of everybody in the UK.

Let me try one more thing on the Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper

will be published I think on Thursday, is that right? We haven't

announced an exact date but you will see the white Paper very soon. Let's

say it is Thursday, it will enshrine thousands of EU laws into UK law, it

will use what's called Henry VIII powers, who of course was a

dictator. Is this an attempt to avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny?

No, we are repealing the Communities Act 1972, then put existing EU legal

obligations on the UK statutory footing, so business know where they

stand. Then, because a lot of those EU regulations will for example

refer to the commission or another regulator, you need to substitute a

UK authority in place so we need to have a power under secondary

legislation to tweak the European regulators so it is coherent. This

is weather Henry VIII powers come in. It is secondary legislation and

the scope, the definition of those powers and when they can be used in

what circumstances is something the parliament will have to approve in

voting through the bill itself. And if it is as innocuous as you say,

will you accept the proposal of the Lords for an enhanced scrutiny

process on the secondary legislation? Neither the relevant

committee of the House of Lords, the constitution committee, nor anyone

else has seen the text of the bill and I think when it comes out, I

hope that those members of the House of Lords will find that reassuring,

but as I say the definition of those powers are something the parliament

itself will take the final decision. David Lidington, thank you for being

with us. So, Ukip has lost its only MP -

Douglas Carswell. He defected to Ukip

from the Conservative Party almost three years ago,

but yesterday announced that he was quitting

to sit as an independent. His surprise defection came

in August 2014 saying, "Only Ukip can shake up that cosy

little clique called Westminster". But his bromance with Nigel Farage

turned sour when Mr Carswell criticised the so-called "shock

and awful" strategy as Then, during the EU referendum

campaign last year, Nigel Farage was part of the unofficial Leave.EU

campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell opted to support the official

Vote Leave campaign. Just last month, former

Ukip leader Nigel Farage accused Douglas Carswell

of thwarting his chances of being awarded a knighthood,

writing that, Announcing his resignation

on his website yesterday, Mr Carswell said, "I desperately

wanted us to leave the EU. Now we can be certain that

that is going to happen, I have decided that I will be leaving

Ukip." When Mr Carswell left

the Conservative Party in 2014 he resigned as an MP,

triggering a by-election. "I must seek permission

from my boss," he said referring This time, though, Mr Carswell has

said there will be no by-election. We're joined now from Salford

by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall. Welcome back to the programme. Are

you happy to see the back of your only MP? Well, do you know, I'm

always sad when people leave Ukip at a grass roots level or Parliamentary

level, but I'm sad but I'm not surprised by this. There has been

adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the past couple of years, his

relationship with Nigel Farage certainly hasn't helped, and it is a

hangover from the former regime which I inherited. I try to bring

the party together, I thought I had done that for a few months but it

seems now as if I was only papering over the cracks. Douglas has gone

and I think we will move on and be a more unified party as a result. Did

Douglas Carswell jump because he expected to be pushed out your

national executive committee tomorrow? He came before the

National executive committee to answer questions regarding issues

that have come to the fore over the last couple of months. There was the

knighthood issue, the issue surrounding the Thanet election and

his comments in a book which came out regarding Brexit. So was he

under suspicion? He was coming to answer these questions and they

would have been difficult. So he did jump in your view? No, I'm not

saying he would have been pushed out of the party but he would have faced

difficult questions. What is clear is that a fissure had developed and

I'm not surprised by him leaving the party. You have also lost Diane

James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks, you failed to win the Stoke by

election, Mr Carswell is now a pundit on US television, Ukip now

stands for the UK irrelevance party, doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday

on 12%, membership continues to rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4

million people voted for Ukip. Over the summer exciting things will be

happening in the party, we will rewrite the constitution,

restructure the party, it will have a new feel to it and we will be

launching pretty much the post Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used

to pay quite a lot of your bills, he said the current leadership, that

would be you, couldn't knock the skin off a rice pudding, another way

of saying you are relevant, isn't it? I don't think that's fair. I've

only been in the job since November the 28th, we have taken steps to

restructure the party already, the party is on a sound financial

footing, we won't have a problem money wise going forward. It is a

party which can really unified, look forward to the post Brexit Iraq,

tomorrow we are launching our Brexit test for the Prime Minister. If it

wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have been a referendum and we wouldn't

have Brexit. Every time you say you will unified, someone else leaves.

Is Arron Banks still a member? No, not at this moment in time. He has

been a generous donor in the past, he's done a great job of ensuring we

get Brexit and I'm thankful for that but he isn't a member. He has just

submitted an invoice of ?2000 for the use of call centres, will you

pay that? No. That should be interesting to watch.

In the aftermath of the Westminster attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News

that it vindicates Donald Trump's extreme vetting of migrants. Since

the attacker was born in Kent, like Nigel Farage, can you explain the

relevance of the remark? I personally haven't supported Donald

Trump's position on this, but what I will say, this is what Nigel has

said as well, we have a problem within the Muslim community, it is a

small number of people who hate the way we live... Can you explain the

relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr Farage also made the point

about multiculturalism being the problem as well and he is correct on

that because we cannot have separate communities living separate lives

and never integrating. How would extreme vetting of migrants help you

track down a man who was born in Kent? In this case it wouldn't.

Maybe in other cases it would. But, as I say, I'm not a supporter of

Donald Trump's position on extreme vetting, never have been, so I'm the

wrong person to ask the question too, Andrew. That has probably

become clear in my efforts to get you to answer it. Let me as too,

should there be a by-election in Clacton now? Douglas has called

by-elections in the past when he has left a political party, I know

certain people in Ukip are keen to go down this line, Douglas is always

keen on recall and if 20% of people in his constituency want a

by-election then maybe we should have won. Ukip will be opening

nominations for Clacton very soon. Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have

Douglas Carswell here in the studio. Why not call a by-election? I'm not

switching parties. You are, you are becoming independent. There is a

difference, I've not submitted myself to the whip up a new party,

if I was, I would be obliged to trigger a by-election. If every time

an MP in the House of Commons resigned the whip or lost the whip,

far from actually strengthening the democracy against the party bosses,

that would give those who ran parties and enormous power, so I'm

being absolutely consistent here, I'm not joining a party. It is a

change of status and Nigel Farage has just said he will write to every

constituent in Clacton and he wants to try and get 20% of constituents

to older by-election. We are going to testing, he says, write to every

house in Clacton, find out if his constituents want a by-election, if

20% do we will find out if Mr Carswell is honourable. I'm sure

they will be delighted to hear from Nigel. There have been several

by-elections when Nigel has had the opportunity to contact the

electorate we did -- which did not always go to plan. If you got 20%,

would you? Yesterday I sent an e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I

have had a lot of responses back, overwhelmingly supported. Recently

you said you were 100% Ukip, now you are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa

May triggering article 50, we won, Andrew. You knew a few months ago

she was going to do that. On June the 24th I had serious thought about

making the move but I wanted to be absolutely certain that Article 50

would be triggered and I think it is right. This is why ultimately Ukip

exists, to get us out of the European Union. We should be

cheerful instead of attacking one another, this is our moment, we made

it happen. Did you try to sideline the former Ukip leader during the

referendum campaign? Not at all, I have been open about this, the idea

I have been involved in subterfuge. You try to sideline him openly

rather than by subterfuge? I made the point we needed to be open,

broad and progressive to win. I made it clear in my acceptance speech in

Clacton and when I said that Vote Leave should get designation that

the only way Euroscepticism would win was by being more than just

angry natives. What do you make of that? I am over the moon that we

have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas I rarely have that much confidence

in Theresa May because history proves that she is good at talking

the talk but in walking the walk often fails, and I'm disappointed

because I wanted Douglas to be part of the post Brexit Ukip where we

move forward with a raft of domestic policies and go on to take seat at

Westminster. Do you think you try to sideline Mr Farage during the

referendum campaign? Vote Leave certainly didn't want Nigel Farage

front of house, we know that. They freely admit that, they admitted it

on media over the past year. Nigel still was front of house because he

is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for Nigel, as I said earlier, we

wouldn't have at the referendum and we wouldn't have achieved Brexit

because Nigel Farage appeals, like Ukip to a certain section of the

population. If our primary motive is to get us out of the European Union,

why are we having this row, why can't we just celebrate what is

happening on Wednesday? We can, but you are far more confident that

Theresa May will deliver on this than I am. Ukip may have been a

single issue pressure group ten years ago, it wasn't a single issue

pressure group that you joined in 2014, it wasn't a single issue

pressure group that you stood for in 2015 at the general election, and

I'm disappointed that you have left us when we are moving onto an

exciting era. What specifically gives you a lack of confidence in

Mrs May's ability deliver? Her record as Home Secretary, she said

she would deal with radical Islam, nothing happened, she said she would

get immigration down to the tens of thousands, last year in her last

year as Home Secretary as city the size of Newcastle came to this

country, that is not tens of thousands. I think we need to take

yes for an answer eventually. The problem with some Eurosceptics is

they never accept they have won the argument. We have one, Theresa May

is going to do what we have wanted her to do, let's be happy, let's

celebrate that. But let's wait until she starts bartering things away,

until she betrays our fishermen, just as other Conservative prime

ministers have done in the past. Let's wait until we end up still

paying some sort of membership fee into the European Union or a large

divorce bill. That is not what people voted for on June the 23rd

and if you want to align yourself with that, you are clearly not a

Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip to have relevance, it has to go

wrong? I'm confident politics will come back to our terms but -- our

turf but there will be a post Brexit Ukip that will stand for veterans,

book slashing the foreign aid bill and becoming the party of law and

order. Finally, to you, Douglas Carswell, you say you have

confidence in Mrs May to deliver in the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't.

You backed her, you were Conservative, you believe that

Brexit will be delivered under a Conservative Government. Why would

you not bite the 2020 election as a Conservative? I feel comfortable

being independent. If you join a party you have to agree to a bunch

of stuff I would not want to agree with. I am comfortable being

independent. So you will go into 2020 as an independent? If you look

at the raising of funds, what Vote Leave did as a pop-up party... We

only have five seconds, will you fight as an independent in the next

general election? Let's wait and see. Very well! Thank you both very

Hello again. much.

Welcome to the Sunday Politics in the Midlands after a

And sadly, yes, confirmation that this

latest terrorist outrage has clear links with Islamist extremism

So, can Parliament remain a public meeting

place, or must it become even more of a fortress?

Well, our guests today both endured that five hour

lockdown of Westminster and both, thank goodness, are safe

With us here today, game Dame Caroline Spelman, the Conservative

MP for Meriden, and Richard Burden, Labour MP for Birmingham Northfield.

Good to have you both with us here today.

So, we begin, of course, with the horror visted upon

Westminster from here in the Midlands on Wednesday.

Parliament bristles with armed police, CCTV and

In the event, though, all it took was one man with a

Islamic State, so-called, say he was one of their

But one of our Muslim MPs assured the Prime

Minister this outrage had nothing whatsoever to do with the religion

This attacker and people like him are not of my

religion, nor are they of our community.

We should condemn all of them who pretend to be of a particular

religion, because they are not of religion.

If they were of religion, they wouldn't be carrying

We have to say united and show them that they can't win on these

And I do realise it must have been a dreadful ordeal, so

in a way, I hesitate to ask you to relive it, but can I

ask you first of all, Caroline, exactly what happened to you on

Well, I'd just been talking to three groups of

schoolchildren from Walsall Common junior school, who had made

the journey to London, and I went to the chamber

to vote because we had a vote at 2:40pm.

So, one of my main concerns, as I had no phone signal,

But I'm very pleased to say, when I rang the head

once I had a phone much later, he told me they had got away safely

and he said something I think which was

He said, "Caroline, this would not stop me

from bringing children to visit Parliament another year."

You say you were locked down, as it were, yourself.

Yes, well, I voted and I found myself in the corridors where quite

a lot of my colleagues were locked into the chamber of the House of

So, I wasn't quite sure where I should go

from the corridors but, actually, we were directed to a secure room

below the chamber and, yeah, that's where

Well, I had some guests down in connection

with my work as part of the All-party Motor Group and, like

Caroline, I'd been called to vote, I'd just been in to vote,

was going back to meet them and that's when all the doors

were shut and I was locked down in central lobby with my guests,

which is the dead centre of the building.

It's were the term "lobbying your MP" comes from.

I did have a phone signal, so, unlike Caroline, we were

able to pick up a bit of what was going on about that had to

When we realised the whole of what was going on outside

unfolding, obviously it was chilling for all of us.

Making it very isolated, as we are hearing, where you were.

You had plenty of time, obviously, to reflect on your

predicament, possibly the significance of what was going on.

I desperately wanted to contact my family to tell them

that I was safe and I also wanted to be sure that my staff were safe.

We do practice the procedure and I knew

that my staff would be evacuated to another part of the building.

I was just hoping and praying they were

safely there but, when we were all let go, the first thing we did

was head back to try and find our

members of staff and I gave them a very big hug.

We heard Khalid Mahmood speaking, I thought, with great

The community response in terms of social cohesion

in and around Birmingham has been very strong in the days since

Wednesday, and yet we do hear these reports about jihad

and those seven wards that have a particularly big

concentration of people who have had terror related convictions.

How do we balance how to make sense of all this?

I think Khalid had it absolutely right there.

Yes, clearly, were police enquiries lead

out of this incident and others, they need to be followed up, whether

that is in Birmingham or anywhere else, but the idea that the person

who committed this atrocity in Parliament or indeed other

atrocities are anything to do with the vast,

Muslims in this country, it's an aberration of Islam

and I think Khalid did speak with great force in

saying, "This is not in my religion."

I would really like to add that the local imam from Solihull is

one of the first people to e-mail me and say,

I'm so glad you're safe, I condemn absolutely these attacks

Muslims who are misinformed about their faith, this

is the hijacking of religion, it's been known in the

past the world, it's a prime example of it

Birmingham, the Church of England receive a ?1.5 million of funding

for a "near neighbours" programme to help people of different faith

better understand their differences and also to draw closer together.

And so, like Parliament itself, let's get back to business.

When the Bromsgrove MP and communities secretary,

Sajid Javid, approved the council's plan for 6000 homes on the green

belt near Sutton Coldfield, he put himself on a collision course

Well, Mr Javed did promise tough decisions, didn't he?

Well, our political correspondent explains why this is getting

A green and pleasant land, but not for long.

This particular bit of green belt in Sutton Coldfield is shortly to

Where we are walking is actually just the start.

If you look to the left, over there, that's one of the

borders and behind you again, it goes right the way to the A38,

another two or three fields that way.

It's the only way, Birmingham City Council said, to

Campaigners argue it is short-sighted.

In Birmingham, we actually haven't got

It has been released into brown field effectively,

so we have no urban fringe, we have no green belt remaining.

And it's created a political row between

your local Conservative MP and the Conservative minister

responsible for giving it the go ahead.

Where the independent planning Inspectorate

has said that it meets all the rules and regulations, then the Government

has no valid reason to stand in their way.

And this may not be the only green belt land that disappears

The West Midlands combine authority has a vision.

It wants to increase the region by more

than 500,000 people over the next 15 years.

An independent report said, for that to happen, the region needs

That's 50,000 more than currently planned for by local

Let's use brown field, that's what we keep hearing.

That means sites like this, Friar Park in Sandwell,

Just to prove this in context, the report says, to meet

the West Midlands housing need, you'd need 70 more of these sites

They take a long time to clear up and that means

Last week, the combined authority announced it was putting ?53

million into reaching brown field land with more on the way.

But the report said it is green belt that must

I think there's a misunderstanding about what green belt land is.

I don't think we will need, as people will try to argue,

We need to concentrate on the brown field land sites

first because those are the ones that blight all our communities

Green belt was originally put in place to prevent

urban sprawl and protect the character of certain areas.

Some say times have changed and a 21st-century problem

-- As we've heard, Sutton Coldfield MP Andrew Mitchell

is fighting this proposal all the way, but given the need to

accommodate a growing population, I suggested

to him down the line to

Westminster that this meant some green belt development was

Well, it made you got the case certainly wasn't made in

I attended part of the public enquiry, the case was never

There is a very strong feeling that there were

alternatives and that the views of the 100,000 people who live in Royal

Sutton Coldfield have been completely ignored.

These are Labour proposals from Labour Birmingham

City Council, but we're also dismayed that the Government wades

through these are Labour proposals without calling them and looking

Have you had any further conversations with Sajid

Javid about this and have you had that set to in the House of Commons?

Well, you know, he is a friend of mine, but I stand up for

Sutton Coldfield and anyone who, in my view, of whatever party, does

something that will damage Sutton Coldfield, I express myself

politely, but forcibly in that context.

What do you say about the accusation

I say that Sutton Coldfield, its residents, protest

movement, cancel, Conservative councils, have made clear

want to build more homes but we are determined that the

next-generation have the same advantages in terms of home

ownership and rental, and so forth, that our generation has had.

But they've got to go somewhere and the

lesson, again and again is that we have people say, well,

There nwere a whole series of alternatives that were

properly discussed and examined and, above all, we came up, as a

community, with the proposal that there should be an HM

moratorium of all the green belt was built on it,

so that better statistics, knowledge, would be available with

which to make the decision to spoil the green belt.

Once you build on the green belt, it is removed for ever from

the enjoyment of future generations and that proposal was not even

properly examined, let alone granted.

The community in Sutton Coldfield have been incredibly

Richard, as a Birmingham MP, of course, you

have a real feel for the pressures actually in the city.

Do you have sympathy for the folk then Sutton

Coldfield to feel that the valuable bits of green space is going to be

The presumption should always be that you don't build on green fields

I absolutely understand where they are

The pressures are real and Birmingham, for example, at the

moment, has over 20,000 people waiting for homes.

We need between 80,000-90,000 new homes over the

So, these things need to be looked at strategically.

It needs to have a situation whereby if

plans are made to build on green field sites,

then there needs to be a proper procedure for considering

There is actually what has happened in relation to Sutton Coldfield and,

as your report showed, it's the Government

Birmingham plans to build on that land were sound.

Your colleague, Andrew Mitchell, is convinced that Sajid Javid

should have called it in, that

he wasn't satisfied with the way the Government

Well, Andrew Mitchell and I both suffer from the problem we don't

have much Brownfield in either of our constituencies.

You've got the Garden Village in your area, haven't

But I think the right approach to this is a strategic one and Andy

There's a full list of all the candidates

Well, he has pointed out there are 1600 hectares of

Now the West Midlands combined authorities do need to get to see

strategically the region's housing need added as possible to bring

these sides that have languished for decades into use.

I've taken you, Patrick, to an estate in my

constituency, where Solihull managed to build 1000 extra homes.

There are more ways of finding new, affordable

housing without tearing up green field and green belt which, in

Caroline mentioned who is about to be elected actually

and the Institute for Public Policy Research who elect

that they may should have a bigger role in housing

actually to ensure that the team unity voices heard.

What they may position gives us is the opportunity

to have a strong voice for the West Midlands.

There's far too many decisions, frankly, made in London

and that's why the Labour candidate for West Midlands Mayor, Sean Simon,

is making the return of local control.

Of course, and there are other candidates, as I was saying,

but isn't the danger that, when you involve

they just say, not here, thank you very much?

We've been consulting on our local plan and, in

my constituency, the council has been very transparent about where

all these sites are and people say, very clearly, we recognise we need

affordable housing in our own backyard.

Let's leave that there for the moment.

Well, of that Government climb-down on national insurance contributions

recently, I wonder if we sense and U-turn coming on.

When they saw the close of the consultation period on

the Government's controversial national funding formula for

Its planned replacement system for the present

Ministers say it's fairer than the existing poscode lottery,

but it has triggered a storm of protest inside

Hundreds march against cuts to school budgets

proposed under a funding formula advocated by ministers in the name

They say lump-sum payments to individual schools will better match

The National Audit Office calculates its

an 8% cut their people over this Parliament with urban areas,

including Coventry and Birmingham, fairing worst.

Birmingham, where 96% of schools will lose a total of

Windsor and Maidenhead gained ?300,000.

But Tory shires are not happy either.

Even though the lowest funding would get more.

The Conservative MP Geoffrey Clifton Brown had

a deputation of nine Conservatives to lobby Prime

Minister and later won the Education Secretary

their formula would not be carried in its present form.

I can tell you and this programme that the Government whips

office also think she could well be right.

So, look, this isn't a final solution.

clear that Staffordshire should be at least getting, AT LEAST getting

I hope they will respond and I hope they go back,

Justin Greening will go back to the Chancellor of the Exchequer

and say that this is not going to work.

The Government say they are spending more on schools

than ever but the current system is unfair, opaque and outdated.

That message may be difficult to sell any

typical secondary school facing a ?300,000 a year cut.

I wonder if another Government climb-down is

Do you think they will tweak that formula, Caroline, and

because the present formula formula simply isn't fair.

Solihull pupils get 22% less per capita then

-- than wards that are adjacent to these, and identical

That is ?989 less per pupil right now.

For a long time, there has been a commitments to try

and improve the formula is, as a result of

this, Solihull gets an

uplift of 3% and Birmingham overall reduces by 2.4%.

It has benefited by 22% more than we have to this

I think it's a consultation, the Government will do the work unit

again, but there does need to be changed.

And only happening, as Caroline said, only because Labour

in office neglected to update this very out of date system.

When Labour was in power, our priority

Major increases in the schools' budget.

This new formula simply isn't fair and it's not

All but seven will actually lose money per

The equivalent of one, two, three, four in some

Where do you find the extra money for all this?

Reversing the cut in corporation tax, for example, will

Only find the money to keep school happy

there are more winners than losers in this

but obviously it's the losers that

There really isn't more winners than losers in this.

96% of schools will lose and, as you have in your

report, the National Audit Office has recognised and decided that

there will be about an 8% the pupil in schools.

We need to be able to grow our economy.

That is what we have been consistently arguing.

Frankly, if we were to talk about levelling up of

But don't take money away from schools in some

Including parts of Caroline's constituency.

Emphasises yet again the power of these

backbencher revolts at the

moment and the group carries nation of the 17 seat majority.

No wonder there's talk about a general

It's not easy with a small majority but let's not get,

the Government is actually spending more money on education.

Yeah, but there is more being spent on education.

It's what the National Audit Office say.

In my most deprived wards, they get 22%

unless funding per capita converted the pupils

just over the border in

There has come from Birmingham to be educated in

Solihull to bring the money with them,

the money they would God have

I wish we could pursue this further but I'm afraid we are being counted

Right, let's get up to speed now with the rest of the

political development is making the news here over the past week

with our round-up in 60 seconds, brought

A Chinese company opening a factory in giving

making electric versions of London taxis creating 1000 jobs.

This is now being run by the National Trust.

Staffordshire County Council has handed over control to

The NHS Trust which runs the whilst out on county hospitals

has been placed into special financial measures.

The University hospitals of north midlands is one

of ten trusts listed as failing to meet spending targets.

The Conservative MP for Solihull, Julian

Knight, organised a letter to the BBC

signed by 72 MPs accusing the

cooperation of being "pessimistic and skewed"

in its Brexit coverage since

Labour's deputy leader claims there's a

secret plot by hard left to seize control of the party.

He said the momentum group is trying to increase

its influence by obtaining funding from the Unite union.

If this is a hard left plenty take over the

Labour Party coming to Paris, then our very

electoral existence is in

This interim place into that Unite leadership

election in which the Midlands Secretary Gerard Coyne is

challenging the Len McCluskey, who we just seen is one of Jeremy

A dire warning, Richard, from your deputy

There has always been differences and

different wings of all political party.

What Tom, I think, is concerned about here and this is what he said,

is that it is the danger is that go beyond that and you could actually

end up with a change in the character of the Labour Party.

Well, I don't know, but my concern about

this is these things need to be looked at.

Tom has made some serious allegations and they need to be

As far as the viewers are concerned of this programme and the

people are concerned, what they hear is a row

within a political party and frankly, that is no use to

anybody and I think they would be saying to ask, get your act together

And get behind Jeremy Corbyn, presumably.

For the Conservatives, your colleagues would really rather like

to see Jeremy Corbyn still there as leader in the time

of the next election, so you're keeping a close

They say that to govern well, you need

a strong opposition and actually, what is happening to the Labour

I was disturbed to hear what Tom had to say and he said that there seems

to be more will to be a British protest movement and TV be serious

-- more will to be a protest movement than take part.

In our democracy, we need an opposition.

Thanks, as I say, to Caroline Spelman and Richard Vernon.

can see you nodding in agreement but we don't have any more time! Thank

you both for coming in, Andrew, back to you.

So yesterday the European Union celebrated its 60th birthday

at a party in Rome, the city where the founding document

Leaders of 27 EU countries were there to mark the occasion -

overshadowing it, though, the continued terrorist threat,

And on Wednesday Theresa May, who wasn't in Rome yesterday,

will trigger Article 50, formally starting

The President of the European Council, Donald Tusk,

made an appeal for unity at the gathering.

Today in Rome, we are renewing the unique alliance of free nations

that was initiated 60 years ago by our great predecessors.

At that time, they did not discuss multiple speeds,

they did not devise exits, but despite all the tragic

circumstances of the recent history they placed all their faith

Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that has the Council of ministers, and on

that council where every member of the EU sits he is an important

figure in what is now about to happen. We have got to negotiate our

divorce terms, we've got to agree a new free trade deal, new

crime-fighting arrangements, we've got to repatriate 50 international

trade agreements, and all of that has to be ratified within two years,

by 27 other countries. Can that really happen?! I don't think it is

inconceivable because it is in the interests of those 27 EU member

states to try and negotiate a deal that we can all live with, because

that would be preferable to Britain crashing out within two years. But I

think this is why Labour's position is becoming increasingly incoherent.

Keir Starmer has briefed today that he will be making a speech tomorrow

setting out six conditions which he wants the deal to meet, otherwise

Labour won't vote for it, but if Labour doesn't vote for it that

doesn't mean we will be able to negotiate an extension, that would

be incredibly difficult and require the consent of each of the 27 member

states, so if Labour votes against it we will just crash out, it is

effectively Labour saying no deal is better than a poor deal, which is

not supposed to be their position. Labour's position may be incoherent

but I was not asking about their position, I was asking about the

Government's position. The man heading the Badila said he wants it

ready by October next year so that it can go through the ratification

process, people looking at this would think it is Mission:

Impossible. It seems impossible to me to be done in that time. The fact

that it is 27 countries, the whole of the European Parliament as well,

there will be too many people throbbing spanners in the works and

quite rightly. We have embarked on something that is truly terrible and

disastrous, and the imagery we can have of those 27 countries

celebrating together 60 years of the most extraordinary successful

movement for peace, for shared European values, and others not

there... We were not there at the start either, and we are not there

now! And we have been bad partners while we were inside, but now that

we are leaving... They did not look like it was a birthday party to me!

I think it was, there was a sense of renewal, Europe exists as a place

envied in the world for its values, for its peacefulness, that is why

people flocked to its borders, that is why they come here. Can you look

at the agenda that faces the UK Government and EU 27, is it not

possible, in fact even likely, that as the process comes to an end they

will have to agree on a number of areas of transitional arrangements?

I think they will and they will have to agree that soon, I would not be

surprised if sometime soon there is an understanding is not a formal

decision that this is a process that will extend over something closer to

buy or seven than two years. On Wednesday article 50 will be filed

and there will be lots of excitement and hubbub but nothing concrete can

happen for a while. Elections in France in May, elections in Germany

which could really result in a change of Government... That is the

big change, Mrs Merkel might not be there by October. And who foresaw

that a few months ago? So you might be into 28 Dean before you are into

the substantive discussions about how much market access or regulatory

observance. I cannot see it being completed in two years. I could see,

if negotiations are not too acrimonious, that transitional

agreement taking place. Let's look at the timetable again. The council

doesn't meet until the end of April, it meets in the middle of the French

elections, the first round will have taken place, they will need a second

round so not much can happen. President Hollande will be

representing France, then the new French government, if it is Marine

le Pen all bets are off, but even if it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a

party, he will not have a majority, the French will take a long while to

sort out themselves. Then it is summer, we are off to the Cote

d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian elite, then we come back from that

and the Germans are in an election, it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no

longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr Schultz, he may have to try to form

a difficult green red coalition, that would take a while. Before you

know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and no substance has taken place, yet we

are then less than a year before this has to be decided. It is a big

task and I'm sure Jana is right that there will be transitional

arrangements and not everything will be concluded in that two year

timetable, but in some respects what you have described helps those of us

on the Eurosceptic site because it means they cannot really be a

meaningful parliamentary vote on the terms of the deal because nothing is

going to be agreed quickly enough for them to be able to go back and

agree something else if Parliament rejects it, so when the Government

eventually have something ready to bring before Parliament it will be a

take it or leave it boat. How extraordinary that people who have

campaigned. Indeed give us our country back and say, isn't it

wonderful, we won't have a meaningful boat for our

parliamentarians of the most important... We don't know what the

negotiation, the package is, day by day we see more and more complicated

areas nobody ever thought about, nobody mentioned during the

campaign, all of which has to be resolved and the European Council

and the negotiators say nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

You lead us into a catastrophe. There will be plenty of opportunity

for Parliament to have its say following the introduction of the

Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if there will be no Parliamentary time

devoted. The final package is what counts. We have two years to blog

about this! There was a big Proview -- pro-EU

march yesterday... I was there! Polly Toynbee was there, down to

Parliament Square, lots of people there marching in favour of the

European Union. We can see the EU flags there on flags, lots of

national flags as well, the British one. Polly, is it the aim of people

like you still to stop Brexit, or to soften Brexit? I think the aim is

for the best you can possibly do to limit the damage. Of course, if it

happens that once people have had a chance to see how much they were

lied to during the campaign and how dreadful the deal is likely to be,

if it happens that enough people in the population have changed their

minds, then maybe... There is no sign up yet. But we have not even

begun, people have not begun to confront what it is going to mean.

Wait and see. I think it is just being as close as we can. Is that

credible, do you think, to stop it or to ameliorate it in terms of the

Remainers? I think it is far more credible to try and stop it but even

then the scope is limited. It is fairly apparent Theresa May's

interpretation of the referendum is the country wants an end to free

movement, there is probably no way of doing that inside the single

market. She also wants external trade deals, no way of doing that

outside the customs unit, said the only night you can depend if you are

pro-European is, let's not leave without any trade pact, at least

let's meet Canada and have a formalised trade agreement. The idea

of ace -- of a very soft exit is gone now because the public really

did want an end to free movement and the Government really does want

external trade deals. It depends what changes in Europe. I think the

momentum behind the Remoaning movement will move away. One of the

banners I saw being held up yesterday by a young boy on the news

was, don't put my daddy on a boat. It gets a lot of its moral force

from the uncertainty surrounding the fate of EU nationals here and our

resident in the remainder of the EU and I think David Lidington is right

that it will be concluded quite quickly once negotiations start and

that will take a lot of the heat and momentum out of the remaining

movement. Why didn't Theresa May allow that amendment that said, we

will do that, as an act of generosity, we will say, of course

those European citizens here are welcome to stay? It would have been

such a good opening move in the negotiations, instead of which she

blocked it. It does not augur well. I have interviewed many Tories about

this and put that point to them but they often say the Prime minister's

job is to look after UK citizen in the EU... Bargaining chips, I think

you have to be generous and you have to wish you people in Spain and

everywhere else where there are British citizens would have

responded. The British Government did try and raise that with their EU

counterparts and were told, we cannot begin to talk about that

until article 50 has been triggered. Next week we will be able to talk

about it. How generous it would have been, we would have started on a

better note. Didn't happen, we will see what happens next with EU

citizens. That is it for today, the Daily Politics will be back tomorrow

at midday and every day next week on BBC Two as always.

And there's also a Question Time special live tomorrow

night from Birmingham - with guests including

the Brexit Secretary David Davis, Labour's Keir Starmer,

former Ukip leader Nigel Farage and the SNP's Alex Salmond -

I'll be back next week at 11am here on BBC One.

Until then, remember - if it's Sunday, it's

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