Browse content similar to 25/09/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Welcome to Liverpool where the Labour Party has decided | :00:00. | :00:09. | |
who its next leader should be - he's the same one they had before. | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
So is it onwards and upwards for Jeremy Corbyn's Labour? | :00:14. | :00:48. | |
Morning folks and welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
I am therefore, conference, delighted to declare Jeremy Corbyn | :00:53. | :00:54. | |
elected as leader of the Labour Party. | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
Jeremy Corbyn says he wants to "wipe the slate clean". | :01:01. | :01:06. | |
But can Labour MPs serve under a man they said they had no confidence in? | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
We look at where the next battles are likely to be fought and speak | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
to one peer who's quitting the party in protest. | :01:14. | :01:15. | |
Jeremy has no leadership qualities, whatsoever. | :01:16. | :01:17. | |
His little group like him and they think he is the Messiah | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
but he will never become the leader - | :01:23. | :01:24. | |
He's been "getting down" at party conferences for more than 50 years - | :01:25. | :01:33. | |
we'll ask John Prescott if he's optimistic about the next 50 years. | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
David Cameron felt "let down" by Theresa May | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
because of her lukewarm support for Remain during the | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
Was she a secret brexiteer or just manoeuvring for the top job? | :01:46. | :01:58. | |
In the capital, how is this rivalry shaping up? | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
London's Mayor warns pointedly that you can only change lives | :02:03. | :02:04. | |
And we tried to oust them from the programme - | :02:05. | :02:12. | |
but they're back by popular demand - so with me - the best | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
and the brightest political panel in the business Steve Richards, | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
Rachel Shabi and Tom Newton-Dunn, who'll be tweeting | :02:21. | :02:21. | |
David Cameron became intensely frustrated | :02:22. | :02:28. | |
at Theresa May's unwillingness to declare her intentions | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
in the run-up to the EU referendum campaign. | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
That's according to a new book by Mr Cameron's former spin doctor. | :02:35. | :02:40. | |
The book by Craig Oliver is called Unleashing Demons: | :02:41. | :02:43. | |
The Inside Story Of Brexit, and is being serialised in Mail | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
The book talks about Mrs May's "submarine strategy | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
Mr Oliver also writes that, "Her sphinx-like approach | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
At one point a leading Remain campaigner asks: "Are we sure May's | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
Oliver also makes claims around Boris Johnson's | :03:04. | :03:06. | |
He claims Mr Johnson texted Mr Cameron after | :03:07. | :03:13. | |
saying Brexit would be "crushed like a toad beneath the harrow". | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
And claims the new Foreign Secretary had a last-minute wobble over | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
backing a vote to Leave the EU, sending a text which read | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
There we go. We know the feeling! This is a Prime Minister of which we | :03:26. | :03:34. | |
know very little. What does this tell us about her? What it tells us | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
is that Craig Oliver David Cameron don't like her very much, that's the | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
only thing we can be 100% sure of, quite frankly. We knew she was a | :03:46. | :03:47. | |
submarine throughout the campaign and I remember discussing it during | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
the campaign on your programme. What we are debating is the motive, why | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
does she stay hidden? Speaking to Downing Street people this morning, | :03:59. | :04:01. | |
they are furious. They say Craig Oliver would be better writing | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
fiction than fact. They are disputing a lot of what Craig Oliver | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
says but of course he was there. It comes down to what you think of | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
Theresa May. Why was she so quiet? Why would she not come up behind | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
Cameron? Was it a political thing because she wanted to be a PM or did | :04:20. | :04:22. | |
she not believe what he was saying? What we know is she was always a | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
reluctant Remainer and some people thought she was a secret Brexiteer. | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
What with don't know is she was playing the part of a submarine. Was | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
she quietly plotting for the leadership? That is the bit that is | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
unclear. Yes, I mean, I think to a certain extent a lot of these things | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
we did already know, you are right. But we didn't know the extent to | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
which... I mean, this is a party which claims to love Britain and yet | :04:50. | :04:56. | |
seems to make decisions on the basis of pure political gain. And once we | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
see the machinations of that and the insights to that that seem to be | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
exposed today in this book, the fact Theresa May was asked 13 times, the | :05:06. | :05:12. | |
fact Boris Johnson... 13 times to? To step up and support Cameron. I | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
missed that, 13 times she was asked? In fact, Boris Johnson less than a | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
minute before making decisions sent a text to David Cameron saying he | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
would come out in favour of Remain, shows how arbitrary, random and | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
politically driven these decisions were. I think we should be asking | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
them these questions every day. It is unforgivable they took the | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
country to such a massive and catastrophic decision on the basis | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
of such naked political gain. That has never happened in politics | :05:44. | :05:51. | |
before! Perish the thought! I thought that because Mrs May played | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
the part of reluctant Remainer she would annoy both sides, that the | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
Leave campaign would be angry with her because she didn't jump to them | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
and Remain side would be angry because she did nothing effective | :06:05. | :06:07. | |
during the campaign and that would count her out from getting the | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
leadership. How did I get that wrong? It certainly didn't have that | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
effect. I think we can roughly work out what happened. A senior official | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
at the Home Office who worked with Theresa May for a long time told me | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
earlier this year, long before the referendum, and when people had | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
declared, that he was 100% sure she would back Remain. He was a great | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
admirer of hers and he said that was her view and that she would do that. | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
So I think she was a Remainer. But as you say, she had doubts. She made | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
Corbyn look evangelical on the issue. There is nothing | :06:42. | :06:49. | |
contradictory about being in the end for Remain but harbouring leadership | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
ambitions. They did try to get her to do more, I know they did. But the | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
Remain campaign was also ambiguous about the issue of immigration and | :06:58. | :07:00. | |
the group Dunne the degree to which they wanted to go with it, they | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
wanted to go on the economy. I don't think they pressed her the heart of | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
the dominant force in the campaign because they wanted it to be more | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
about the economy than immigration. So reluctant Remainer, low profile | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
for all kinds of reasons, one of which was the Remain campaign didn't | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
want immigration to overwhelm the economy. It did in the end. They | :07:20. | :07:27. | |
calculated that wrong. The Remain campaign got that wrong, not Theresa | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
May. Have we known less about any Prime Minister in modern times than | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
Theresa May? It's funny because we think we know her. I've interviewed | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
her, you have interviewed her, we have seen her around the scene for | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
20 years but we don't know precisely... We will get a load more | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
about this at Tory conference. Is that coming up? Have got to go there | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
too? One day we will leave Liverpool. People will see that as | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
an opportunity to explain a bit more about her. River Lea, because we | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
need to move on. We'll have a habit of overestimated and overanalysing | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
Theresa May -- briefly. She could be a simple straightforward person who | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
likes to tell the truth, ever thought about that? Never. It is | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
tough to get to the top with people knowing who you are. Why would we | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
want to leave Liverpool? Look over there, it is lovely. It was the | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
result everyone expected. After almost three months | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
of campaigning Labour have the same leader they had before - | :08:32. | :08:33. | |
so can the slate really be wiped clean - as Jeremy Corbyn has urged - | :08:34. | :08:36. | |
or will splits and divisions Adam Fleming has been watching | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
events here in Liverpool unfolding. But it's been about our Labour | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
family facing the future. He was the head of the family last | :08:44. | :08:45. | |
week and he'll be the head So Labour has elected its new leader | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
and is the old leader, So Labour has elected its new leader | :08:50. | :08:56. | |
and it's the old leader, Jeremy Corbyn, winning this contest | :08:57. | :08:59. | |
and winning by a slightly larger In his second victory speech in just | :09:00. | :09:01. | |
over a year Jeremy Corbyn said Labour would fight the Government's | :09:02. | :09:12. | |
plans to extend grammar I'm calling on Labour Party members | :09:13. | :09:14. | |
all over the country to join us in a national campaign for inclusive | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
education for all next Saturday. The Tories' plans for grammar school | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
segregation of our children expose their divisive and damaging | :09:22. | :09:36. | |
agenda for our country. But the big message | :09:37. | :09:39. | |
to his party was this. We have much more in common | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
than that which divides us. As far as I'm concerned let's wipe | :09:45. | :09:47. | |
that slate clean from today and get on with the work we've got to do | :09:48. | :09:59. | |
as a party together. Jezza escaped the cameras to go | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
and celebrate with his allies. Where is the Jeremy | :10:03. | :10:04. | |
Corbyn victory party There will be a number of victory | :10:05. | :10:07. | |
parties, but the most important thing now is just | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
bringing people together. So what Jeremy will be doing | :10:13. | :10:14. | |
is going around all the different individual party receptions, | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
the different regions and giving the same unity message, | :10:19. | :10:21. | |
and he will be drinking, or having cups of tea, | :10:22. | :10:24. | |
with everybody, all sides. As luck would have it we found | :10:25. | :10:27. | |
a persistent Corbyn critic who had just been invited | :10:28. | :10:30. | |
in for a friendly chat. I'm actually just going | :10:31. | :10:33. | |
to see Jeremy Corbyn now. Oh, are you? | :10:34. | :10:35. | |
Have a one-to-one chat? He asked me to see me | :10:36. | :10:37. | |
so I'm going to see him. Can we come with you? | :10:38. | :10:47. | |
Alas, I don't think he'll allow it. And we did, staking out | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
their meeting at the leader's hotel. She didn't sound | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
entirely convinced. It was fine. | :10:55. | :10:55. | |
What happened? He wanted to talk to me because I'm | :10:56. | :10:58. | |
the chair of the women's PLP. It's the right thing to do that | :10:59. | :11:01. | |
Jeremy wanted to see people like me who have our own mandates | :11:02. | :11:04. | |
within the PLP. I think that's | :11:05. | :11:06. | |
the right thing to do. It's whether you listen and then | :11:07. | :11:08. | |
change your actions that matters. Others were less polite on Twitter, | :11:09. | :11:15. | |
posting pictures of their chopped He is hostile to America, | :11:16. | :11:22. | |
he is hostile to business and he's And I'm the reverse on all those | :11:23. | :11:31. | |
issues as well. This is a position, | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
as Leader of The Opposition, where effectively you are in | :11:37. | :11:48. | |
position to become the next You cannot become the Prime Minister | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
of this country unless you appeal to the great population, | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
and in particular middle England. And I think Jeremy has no | :11:56. | :11:57. | |
leadership qualities whatsoever. Back at conference, | :11:58. | :11:59. | |
they were setting up for a meeting Corbyn fans and Corbyn sceptics | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
are deadlocked over reforms to the party, especially | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
plans to revive elections The criticism doesn't matter | :12:06. | :12:07. | |
here at the festival running alongside conference, | :12:08. | :12:16. | |
organised by the pro-Corbyn They are just over the moon | :12:17. | :12:17. | |
that they have managed to get their hero elected, | :12:18. | :12:25. | |
not just once but twice. And we're joined now | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
by the former Shadow Health Welcome back to the Sunday Politics. | :12:30. | :12:41. | |
Tell me, what will go down in history as the most botched coup of | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
2016? Will it be the uprising against President Erdogan in Turkey, | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
or your efforts to unseat Mr Corbyn in the UK? | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
You've started from completely the wrong premise, Andrew, to be honest. | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
As much as you might read in the papers about a finely orchestrated | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
plot and coo, what I know is I resigned at the end of June because | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
I had concerns about Jeremy's capacity to lead the Labour Party. I | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
was worried that in a very complicated situation that we find | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
ourselves in after the results of the referendum he didn't have the | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
capacity to develop the answers that the party needs. So there was a | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
concerted effort to get rid of him. I resigned at the end of June. A | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
number of my colleagues shared the sense of despair and there was | :13:31. | :13:33. | |
clearly a vote of no-confidence in the Parliamentary Labour Party. At | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
the point at which that happened and that the point at which Jeremy said | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
he wasn't going to resign, they had to be a leadership contest. Why did | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
there have to be? What was the point of it? You have left him stronger | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
than ever. What we have done this is have a | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
really important debate about the future of the Labour Party. It was | :13:56. | :13:58. | |
important for members of parliament who with Jeremy day in and day out | :13:59. | :14:05. | |
and who have had growing concerns over the last year to say we've got | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
to change as a party. The next 12 months need to be better than the | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
last 12 months. We need to appeal to the country. We need Jeremy to | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
understand that if we are going to be a credible and effective | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
opposition, and a government in waiting, then he actually needs to | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
get his act together. So does he understand that now? I hope so but | :14:27. | :14:32. | |
only time will tell. It may all be for nothing. You'll have to ask him | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
the next time he comes on your show. You were the ones who sparked this | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
process. Do you now have any doubt that he will lead Labour into the | :14:42. | :14:47. | |
2020 election? Well, a week is a long time in politics, Andrew. Who | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
knows when the next General Election will be? I said 2020, that is when | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
it is scheduled to be but there could be a surprise but Labour would | :14:57. | :14:59. | |
have to vote for that in the Commons. Let's assume it is 2020 and | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
it is the full term. Are you in any doubt that Mr Corbyn will lead your | :15:05. | :15:07. | |
party into that election? Watch Jeremy has got to do is prove he can | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
unite the party and that he can craft a message that appeals to the | :15:12. | :15:14. | |
country. I don't think anyone wants to continue the leadership contest | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
of this summer. But what people like me are determined to do is to | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
continue fighting for a Labour Party that speaks to and for the whole of | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
the country, and one which is capable of winning the next General | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
Election. So you do have some doubts? That is not what I said. We | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
need to focus our efforts... I know what you said about your focus but | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
it is a simple question, do you have doubts that he can win the next | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
General Election? Jeremy needs to prove that he is a competent and | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
capable Leader of the Opposition. You have said that, of course, | :15:51. | :15:53. | |
everybody who is Leader of the Opposition must prove they are | :15:54. | :15:56. | |
competent. It would seem from your inability to give a straight answer | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
that you do have doubts that he will win, indeed you even seem to have | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
doubts that he will lead your party into the next election. I have been | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
honest and it would be quite strange for me having been so explicit over | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
the summer to come onto your programme and say that overnight the | :16:13. | :16:15. | |
concerns that I had expressed had evaporated. Clearly Jeremy is to be | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
congratulated on winning for a second time and he won a clear | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
victory. But because people have voted for him in the numbers that | :16:27. | :16:29. | |
they have doesn't mean that somebody like me automatically changes my | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
mind. There are a number of things that he could do to move the party | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
forward. Give me the most important one. I think he needs to commit | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
unequivocally to a majority of the Shadow Cabinet being elected by the | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
Parliamentary Labour Party. MPs need a new top team to coalesce around. | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
Jeremy has talked about extending an olive branches. Is talked about | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
wiping the slate clean. The time for words is over. -- he has talked. The | :16:58. | :17:05. | |
time for that is over. He needs to say one thing that would show his | :17:06. | :17:11. | |
willingness to compromise. A minority of the Shadow Cabinet | :17:12. | :17:13. | |
should be elected by the Parliamentary Labour Party? -- | :17:14. | :17:22. | |
majority. That is the first one. There are other ideas about how the | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
cabinet should be selected. Do you believe he will do that? He's been | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
playing for time in the NEC. What would be useful is in the 24 hours | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
following his election is for him to show that he has learned from the | :17:39. | :17:41. | |
last 12 months and an elected Shadow Cabinet would be one way of doing | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
that. I also think... Can I just ask, why would he do that? His | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
support, his constituency, if I could put it that way, is the | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
membership in the country. Particularly the new members, who | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
gave him 85% of their votes. He knows the PLP cannot stand him. So | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
why would he hand the power to choose his Shadow Cabinet to that | :18:06. | :18:08. | |
part of the Labour Party which likes him least? | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
I think you are characterising the Parliamentary Labour Party | :18:13. | :18:19. | |
incorrectly, Andrew. Jeremy needs to build a team in Parliament in order | :18:20. | :18:25. | |
to fulfil the basic functions of a parliamentary opposition. The basic | :18:26. | :18:28. | |
duties parliamentary opposition cannot be carried out if you don't | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
have a team. Clearly people were concerned about the direction of | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
travel over the past year. We've been concerned about dreadful | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
results in local elections, we've been concerned about the inability | :18:42. | :18:49. | |
to go out and really make the case strongly for us staying in the EU. | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
If Jeremy wants to be a strong and effective opposition, she needs -- | :18:55. | :19:04. | |
he needs to be Parliament... All of us need to behave with maturity and | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
humility going forward. I think there's some options here that he | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
could be exploring. All right. If he doesn't follow your advice and if he | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
sticks with the leader largely appointing the Shadow Cabinet, many | :19:17. | :19:22. | |
would say if it was good enough for Ed Miliband to do that it should be | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
good enough for Jeremy Corbyn to do that, if he continues along that | :19:27. | :19:29. | |
route, should centrist MPs like yourself serve in that Shadow | :19:30. | :19:36. | |
Cabinet? I won't be serving in that Shadow Cabinet. I have been explicit | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
in my view this summer, as I've already said to you, they haven't | :19:41. | :19:43. | |
changed overnight simply because Jeremy Paris been elected. Can you | :19:44. | :19:50. | |
just explain, given... I'm not sure what else he has to do. He's won two | :19:51. | :19:57. | |
leadership elections by massive majorities, the second one even | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
bigger than the first. He is clearly the choice of the party in the | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
country. Why would you not join his Shadow Cabinet? Because as I said in | :20:09. | :20:11. | |
the last couple of months, and I'm sorry to say this, but my | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
experiences during that time were that it was dysfunctional and I | :20:16. | :20:18. | |
think behaviours do have to change in order for the Parliamentary | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
Labour Party and the Shadow Cabinet to be a really effective opposition. | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
I think I can best serve the Labour Party and my constituents from the | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
backbenches. If we know how this works... If I were to return to the | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
front bench, in a couple of weeks' time you would be saying to me, | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
Heidi Alexander, you said all of those things over the summer, have | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
you now changed your mind? I don't think that's good for anyone. Would | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
you advise like-minded MPs to do the same, not to join Mr Corbyn's Shadow | :20:51. | :20:56. | |
Cabinet? I think every member of Parliament will ultimately take | :20:57. | :20:59. | |
their own decisions. Would you advise them or just leave them to | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
their own devices? I think if Jeremy commits to having the majority of | :21:05. | :21:07. | |
the Shadow Cabinet elected by the Parliamentary Labour Party, then for | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
some people that might be the right thing to do for them. You backed | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
Owen Smith in this election campaign. If there were a general | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
fear among MPs like yourself that Labour is drifting to father left to | :21:24. | :21:26. | |
be electable for the country as a whole, why if that was the case did | :21:27. | :21:33. | |
Owen Smith not attack a single domestic policy of Jeremy Corbyn's? | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
I think what Owen did throughout the campaign was actually moved beyond | :21:38. | :21:40. | |
the slogans. That's the problem we've had in the last year. Jeremy | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
Thompson about investing ?500 billion in a capital investment | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
programme but has absolutely no idea where that's coming from. -- Jeremy | :21:50. | :21:51. | |
Thompson bout that. -- Jeremy talks about that. Owen | :21:52. | :22:03. | |
Smith is honest and says we would have to borrow. That's what Jeremy | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
Corbyn says! Actually, it's quite different to what Jeremy Corbyn and' | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
John McDonald have been saying. If the fear was drifting to the left | :22:14. | :22:21. | |
and making the party unelectable... It was mainly about, we're just as | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
left wing as Mr Corbyn but we are more unelectable! You didn't have | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
any major policy differences with the leader! I think we did, | :22:30. | :22:35. | |
actually. We spoke about the EU referendum and our commitment and | :22:36. | :22:38. | |
our belief that the British people should have a say on the final | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
Brexit deal, either in a second referendum or at the general | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
election. There were differences around areas of defence policy as | :22:48. | :22:53. | |
well. Domestic policy was my original question. I understand the | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
difference on defence. It's clear that the party membership has | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
changed. Revolution may be too strong a word, but there is a clear | :23:06. | :23:08. | |
difference between the new members who have come in and those who were | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
party members at the election last year and in May of 2015. What would | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
be wrong for these new members to say we would like Labour MPs who | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
more reflect our values, our positions, our policy is that we | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
want to see implemented. What would be wrong with that? I think the | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
Labour Party is quite divided at the moment and we should be honest about | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
that. This is a searing revelation you're giving me this morning (!) | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
Parties change, your party has been reinvigorated with a lot of young, | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
new people coming in. What would be wrong with them saying actually, I | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
would like to have an MP represent me who is more in tune with what | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
I've signed up for? I'm not sure it's really about that, to be | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
honest. My own experience in my constituency, someone who is a | :24:02. | :24:04. | |
hard-working member of Parliament, I've spoken to a lot of those new | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
members who value the work that I do in my constituency but some of whom | :24:09. | :24:13. | |
have taken the decision clearly to vote for Jeremy still. We should | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
remember that since Jeremy Maclin lost the election, 80,000 people | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
joined between then and the freeze date of the 12th of January, so | :24:22. | :24:29. | |
there are 80,000 people who had by and large joint because of Jeremy | :24:30. | :24:32. | |
Vine who had not yet had the opportunity to vote for him. I | :24:33. | :24:40. | |
understand that. Are you in trouble yourself? I hope I'm not but I know | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
there are people who are agitating against it. What do you think when | :24:45. | :24:52. | |
you see Diane Abbott doing that job? I think Diane Abbott has one of the | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
biggest and most responsible jobs in Parliament. I think that she needs a | :24:57. | :25:03. | |
team around her to actually do that job effectively. The only way she | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
will get that team is if Jeremy agrees, I think, to Shadow Cabinet | :25:08. | :25:13. | |
elections. That is a point that has come through loud and clear. Heidi | :25:14. | :25:15. | |
Alexander, thank you. So, Labour MPs who prompted this | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
leadership contest have lost the argument and failed to persuade | :25:21. | :25:22. | |
Labour Party members and supporters But can centrist Labour MPs use | :25:23. | :25:25. | |
the party machinery to take The National Executive Committee | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
is the Labour Party's ruling body. Win control of the NEC and you win | :25:30. | :25:36. | |
control of the beating Since Jeremy Corbyn | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
first became leader, there has been a fine balance | :25:40. | :25:47. | |
on the NEC between his loyalists In anticipation of his re-election, | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
the deputy leader Tom Watson has recently been squaring up | :25:51. | :25:59. | |
to Mr Corbyn in the latest The committee has 33 members | :26:00. | :26:01. | |
representing local parties, unions, Going into the party's conference, | :26:02. | :26:04. | |
the NEC looks to have tipped slightly in the leader's favour, | :26:05. | :26:11. | |
with 18 Corbyn-leaning members Although one or two of these | :26:12. | :26:13. | |
could tilt either way The pro-Corbyn block has been | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
boosted by two new members. Rhea Wolfson and Claudia Webbe, | :26:18. | :26:25. | |
who will replace two However, the NEC recently agreed | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
a rule change that could allow Scottish Labour | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
leader Kezia Dugdale and Welsh First Minister Carwyn | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
Jones, both hostile to Mr Corbyn, Tom Watson is also leading the move | :26:39. | :26:41. | |
to restore elections to the Shadow Cabinet, | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
a plan overwhelmingly The Shadow Cabinet currently picks | :26:48. | :26:54. | |
three of its own to sit on the NEC, currently two of the three, | :26:55. | :27:08. | |
Jon Trickett and Rebecca The other, Jonathan Ashworth, | :27:09. | :27:14. | |
is a Corbyn sceptic. If Labour MPs were allowed to elect | :27:15. | :27:17. | |
people to the Shadow Cabinet it could result in more centrists | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
on the NEC. Meanwhile, Mr Corbyn is promoting | :27:22. | :27:23. | |
the idea of giving ordinary party members and trade unions more | :27:24. | :27:25. | |
say on the committee. Control of the NEC could allow | :27:26. | :27:27. | |
Jeremy Corbyn and his allies to change the rules for future | :27:28. | :27:30. | |
leadership elections, which would make it almost | :27:31. | :27:32. | |
impossible for MPs and MEPs to stop another left-wing candidate making | :27:33. | :27:35. | |
a future bid for the leadership. And the move perhaps most feared | :27:36. | :27:37. | |
by MPs, a mandatory reselection We're joined now by Rhea Wolfson - | :27:38. | :27:50. | |
a Jeremy Corbyn supporter who was recently elected to the NEC | :27:51. | :27:53. | |
and takes up her seat at the end of the week - | :27:54. | :27:56. | |
and by Luke Akehurst who supported Owen Smith | :27:57. | :27:59. | |
in the leadership election. It is very finely balanced. The | :28:00. | :28:18. | |
figures I would have would be 16 members that clearly support Corbyn | :28:19. | :28:26. | |
and maybe 17 that don't. Do you agree with that? Yes, I think it is | :28:27. | :28:34. | |
very finely balanced. With the recent elections, with Jeremy Corbyn | :28:35. | :28:41. | |
supporters winning all those seeds, if not tipping the balance. What | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
about this decision to appoint Scottish and Welsh representatives | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
to the NEC? I understand as it stands at the moment that they would | :28:50. | :28:52. | |
be appointed by the leaders of the Scottish and Welsh Labour parties. | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
In other words, appointed by Labour sceptics. Will that switch the | :28:57. | :29:02. | |
balance more against Mr Corbyn? On its own merits it's a good thing | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
because it is an obvious gap that there hasn't been Scottish and Welsh | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
representation, but if you look at the front is in those two countries, | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
it probably wouldn't be hugely helpful to him. What would you think | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
of that? I agree it probably would change the balance of power. I'm | :29:22. | :29:24. | |
really disappointed with how this has come about and I think it's | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
incredibly important to have elected Scottish and Welsh representative. | :29:30. | :29:36. | |
So you think that if we do have Scottish and Welsh representatives, | :29:37. | :29:39. | |
they should be elected by the membership in Scotland and Wales? | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
Absolutely. It's not an interim think is not as if we're moving | :29:45. | :29:47. | |
towards having better representation, it's actually taking | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
an incredibly important issue of the table. During the Commons review, | :29:52. | :29:57. | |
the moderate wing of the party actually put forward proposals that | :29:58. | :30:03. | |
would have guaranteed members on the NEC LX did buy one member one vote | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
from each nation and region of the UK and we didn't manage to get that | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
through and in fact the left of the party opposed it at the time. Or is | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
it going to happen, the Scottish and Welsh wraps being appointed? I | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
understand there may be attempt to overturn it this week on the | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
conference floor. I think that's probably one of the more interesting | :30:26. | :30:28. | |
things that will happen this week, it will probably go to a vote on | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
conference floor. I'm probably reasonably confident at least on the | :30:34. | :30:36. | |
side of the constituency delegates that moderates did well in those. | :30:37. | :30:46. | |
Three members of the Shadow Cabinet get to go on to the NEC and that | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
could change the balance of power as well. Are you in favour of elections | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
for the Shadow Cabinet, and if so, by whom? In principle... Again, I | :30:55. | :31:03. | |
don't want to take this conversation out of context and don't think you | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
can. This is all about political Moon over in again. My concern is | :31:08. | :31:15. | |
this is to undermine Corbyn. I'm not a fan of people saying they won't | :31:16. | :31:22. | |
serve unless elected. I am accountable to members. How would | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
you like to see the Shadow Cabinet chosen, then? I would be willing to | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
listen to the practicalities about the accommodation of having it | :31:32. | :31:34. | |
entirely elected by members. All elected? | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
But not by the PLP? That could be compromise. There was one third, one | :31:40. | :31:48. | |
third, one third. I would consider that, an electoral college. The PLP | :31:49. | :31:57. | |
could choose the Shadow Cabinet, as has been suggested. Will Corbyn | :31:58. | :32:03. | |
agree to that? It depends if Jeremy is serious about what he says about | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
party unity and olive branches. I want to at least see functional | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
unity where the Labour Party gets on with its job of holding the Tories | :32:13. | :32:15. | |
to account and attacking the weak government. In order to do that you | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
need people to come back who resigned this summer. There will not | :32:21. | :32:22. | |
come back unless they have an independent mandate from the PLP. A | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
few might but to get everyone re-engaged there has got to be some | :32:27. | :32:32. | |
kind of concession who were unhappy with Jeremy Bosman leadership, it is | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
political reality. Mr Corbyn has won two leadership elections in a row. | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
If MPs who were disillusioned with him continue to snap, in the words | :32:42. | :32:50. | |
of Len McCluskey, the Unite leader, do they risk the selection and | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
should they? I don't like talking about the selection process is like | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
that, it makes it seem like people are trying to seize power. That's a | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
decision for local parties. The conversation we should be having, | :33:03. | :33:05. | |
and why this conversation has come about because of mandatory | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
deselection, it's because people are unhappy, there is a rift between the | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
PLP and party members and that must be resolved, and it can be in other | :33:14. | :33:16. | |
ways apart from mandatory deselection. I think those other | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
ways should be the priority. Aren't we in a process where the | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
Parliamentary Labour Party now has to change to reflect the membership | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
of the new Labour Party? At the moment there is a disconnect between | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
the kind of people who have signed up to join Labour and the sort of | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
people who represent Labour in the PLP. Is it not inevitable that some | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
of these will be changed in the months and years ahead? Or the other | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
way it could happen is that the composition of the membership could | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
change to reflect Labour voters more. At the moment we have a | :33:50. | :33:53. | |
membership that his weight to the left even of the people who already | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
vote Labour. Demographically it is dominated by graduates and well off | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
people from the south of England so it doesn't represent the Labour | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
heartlands. So are you going to start a centrist Momentum? There was | :34:07. | :34:12. | |
an initial amount of work on recruitment, one of the mistakes in | :34:13. | :34:16. | |
the leadership election was not have a lot in the phase that you could | :34:17. | :34:19. | |
reach out to the country and persuade loads of people to come | :34:20. | :34:26. | |
back. The moderate wing of the party will not win until we learn how to | :34:27. | :34:32. | |
recruit a mass membership in the same way Jeremy Corbyn has done. | :34:33. | :34:35. | |
It's going to be an interesting time at the NEC. It will be interesting! | :34:36. | :34:41. | |
It's just gone 11.37am, you're watching the Sunday Politics. | :34:42. | :34:44. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now | :34:45. | :34:46. | |
Coming up here in 20 minutes, I'll be talking to former | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
Deputy Prime minister and conference stalwart, | :34:51. | :34:51. | |
First, the Sunday Politics where you are. | :34:52. | :34:58. | |
Jeremy Corbyn's strengthened mandate among a membership | :34:59. | :35:09. | |
And catching our eye in particular is the Sunday Times, which has | :35:10. | :35:17. | |
the headline that London's Mayor, Sadiq Khan, thinks "a Corbyn purge | :35:18. | :35:19. | |
That is what the headline says. This is about the threat of deselection | :35:20. | :35:27. | |
to MPs and so on. What about that relationship | :35:28. | :35:29. | |
between Corbyn and Khan? A little later, we'll | :35:30. | :35:31. | |
be wondering aloud whether Mr Khan may one | :35:32. | :35:33. | |
day, or even now, have It looks like that particular | :35:34. | :35:35. | |
tendency could be catching, But there was an exception - | :35:36. | :35:44. | |
one of our guests today, Ken Livingstone, | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
London's first Mayor, who didn't have his eye on the top | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
job, to our knowledge. Neither, as far as we know, | :35:55. | :35:57. | |
does Theresa Villiers, but we'll find that out later, | :35:58. | :35:59. | |
now that she is no Ken Livingstone, let's start on | :36:00. | :36:06. | |
Labour, of course. Heidi Alexander has just told Andrew that Jeremy | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
Corbyn, his leadership etc, he really needs to get his act | :36:11. | :36:16. | |
together. Do you agree? No. The simple fact is we have had a year of | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
Labour MPs underlining Jeremy and making personal attacks. You look | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
back at the days when we had Tony Blair -- undermining Jeremy. We | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
criticised policies, we didn't say this man is not fit to govern. That | :36:31. | :36:35. | |
has been damaging to the Labour Party. They've got to accept it, | :36:36. | :36:38. | |
they will not get rid of Jeremy. We should focus on persuading people | :36:39. | :36:42. | |
that Jeremy's economic strategy could actually work. Massive | :36:43. | :36:45. | |
investment, modernising our infrastructure, cracking down on | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
Google and Starbucks so they pay their fair share of tax so we can | :36:51. | :36:53. | |
put more money into education and health without taxing ordinary | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
people. What happens now? Does he offer that olive branch to those | :36:58. | :37:00. | |
MPs, former Shadow Cabinet members who have left? He did a year ago. | :37:01. | :37:06. | |
Should he do it now? He will, he will be on the phone to them. Some | :37:07. | :37:10. | |
have already said they will not come back and join but I think we just | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
have to move on from that. 35 years ago when the SDP split happened the | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
people leading that were giant figures, everyone in Britain knew | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
who they were. These people criticising Jeremy, most people | :37:24. | :37:25. | |
haven't got a clue who they are. What do you feel about inviting | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
people back? Would you like Heidi Alexander, who is still critical, | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
invited back? I think Jeremy will. Do you think he should? I think he | :37:35. | :37:40. | |
will and he should. If they stay in that it on the backbenches that is | :37:41. | :37:44. | |
up to them, we will get on with campaigning and reaching out to the | :37:45. | :37:47. | |
public not worrying too much about a few embittered old Blairites. How do | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
you feel about this? He seems to be offering warm words this morning, | :37:52. | :37:56. | |
Jeremy Corbyn, to Andrew Marr, reassuring those MPs who were | :37:57. | :37:59. | |
worried about the threat of deselection? How do you feel about | :38:00. | :38:05. | |
these MPs who campaigned against him automatically being reselected? I've | :38:06. | :38:07. | |
always been in favour of reselection. When I was Labour MP | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
for Brent East the right-wingers would put up a candidate against me | :38:12. | :38:14. | |
and I didn't object to that. If you look at America, everyone from the | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
President down to small-time mayor are up for reselection in every | :38:21. | :38:26. | |
election, it's about democracy. Jeremy has made it quite clear he | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
will not bring back automatic reselection because that would mean | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
further schisms in the party. So you wouldn't want to see it? I | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
personally would but if you look back, we introduced it in about 1980 | :38:38. | :38:43. | |
and carried on until Blair got in at only about five MPs wherever | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
deselected. Do you have any optimism that the kind of civil war, or | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
whatever it is, is going to ease? I think it will because there will be | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
a large block of MPs in Labour who oppose Jeremy, who now recognise | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
they have got Jeremy up to the next General Election and they will get | :39:01. | :39:02. | |
behind him because they would rather see a Labour government and another | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
five years of the Tories. The vast bulk will come on board but there | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
will be some sitting around whining on the backbenches. What is your | :39:11. | :39:13. | |
advice? How is Jeremy Corbyn going to win those kind of seats that | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
ensures he forms a government? You cannot look me in the eye and say he | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
is in that position now? Do you agree? We have the economic strategy | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
that could work. Every time Labour lost a General Election is because | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
people didn't think our economic policy was credible. Jeremy's is. | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
It's the policy that many on the left have been arguing for four | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
years. Massive investment. We are so run down as a country. Look at the | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
state of our roads, our broadband is positively antique compare to what | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
you've got in places like China and Hong Kong. Theresa, we cannot let | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
you be a spectator any longer. The ideal time in chipping Barnett and | :39:52. | :39:54. | |
across London and everywhere else to go for a snap election. Well, I | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
don't think we should rush into a snap election, but I do think the | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
Labour Party is in a disastrous state. They are massively divided. | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
They are chaotic and incompetent. And just to hear Jeremy Corbyn on | :40:09. | :40:14. | |
the BBC this morning talking about, oh well, the previous Labour | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
government didn't spend too much, he just doesn't get the fact that you | :40:19. | :40:24. | |
have to live within your means to run a healthy economy. You have to | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
have helped the public finances to allow businesses to grow to deliver | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
the economic stability we need for jobs. And if we can't do that then | :40:33. | :40:37. | |
the NHS will suffer, our transport will suffer. The people who suffer | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
most when people like Jeremy Corbyn get in charge of the public finances | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
and messed them up, the people who suffer most are the most | :40:46. | :40:48. | |
disadvantaged in our society. That you haven't added yet, we should | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
never be complacent. We are absolutely not complacent because we | :40:53. | :40:56. | |
know there are important things we need to change in this country, we | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
need to make our transport system better. We need to ensure that it's | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
a country that works for everyone, that everyone shares in the benefits | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
of economic growth. But the reality is that it would be reckless and | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
disastrous for this country if Labour became the next government. | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
It would be chaos. Dying to come back on that, Ken, but you can pick | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
up on it in the next section, if you like! | :41:22. | :41:24. | |
Londoners have got very used to stories of tensions between City | :41:25. | :41:27. | |
Remember the warmth between Mr Livingstone and Mr Brown? | :41:28. | :41:30. | |
A few months into his mayoralty - and with his very big | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
personal mandate - is Sadiq Khan an asset | :41:35. | :41:36. | |
The story of Labour's Civil War has twists and turns worthy | :41:37. | :41:47. | |
In a dramatic series finale, house Corbyn saw of its rivals | :41:48. | :41:54. | |
In a dramatic series finale, house Corbyn saw off its rivals | :41:55. | :41:57. | |
So what now for the man across the water in City Hall, Sadiq Khan? | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
Arguably the most powerful Labour politician in the country. | :42:02. | :42:04. | |
Once upon a time cover two were happy to pose | :42:05. | :42:13. | |
Last year, Sadiq Khan even nominated Jeremy Corbyn for the leadership. | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
But since then, there have been disagreements over everything | :42:18. | :42:19. | |
from singing the national anthem to whether to campaign with | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell said it discredited | :42:23. | :42:25. | |
And come this summer, Sadiq Khan support a change | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
Owen Smith is the right leader for our party and why I think he's | :42:31. | :42:35. | |
the best chance we've got to win the next election. | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
It is smart of Sadiq to be this counterpoint to Corbyn, | :42:40. | :42:42. | |
to say that "Corbyn can do his thing and get people into his rallies, | :42:43. | :42:45. | |
but what I'm interested in is government, power, | :42:46. | :42:47. | |
changing laws and making life better for people." | :42:48. | :42:49. | |
All things that critics of the Labour leader | :42:50. | :42:51. | |
That he is too focused on ideological purity, | :42:52. | :42:54. | |
But since that wasn't the view of party members, | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
His first move was to congratulate Corbyn on his victory. | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
Here is Hammersmith MP Andy Slaughter, a friend | :43:05. | :43:07. | |
I think he will bring the Labour Party down-to-earth | :43:08. | :43:14. | |
and say it's hard work winning elections and it is even harder | :43:15. | :43:17. | |
And he's done the first spectacularly and he's done a good | :43:18. | :43:26. | |
job so far in his first 100 days setting out his programme, | :43:27. | :43:29. | |
and he's got some solid achievements there, particularly | :43:30. | :43:31. | |
And he's saying, this is what I'm doing, you should all | :43:32. | :43:34. | |
But Corbyn supporters say that what Labour should actually be doing | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
The Labour Party has twice said that they would like | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
I think for some sections of the party, I think it's really | :43:44. | :43:47. | |
time to internalise that reality and figure out how to work | :43:48. | :43:51. | |
within it, but what we're seeing instead is this tendency to sort | :43:52. | :43:54. | |
of cast around and look for other potential leaders, who would perhaps | :43:55. | :43:57. | |
be better to lead the party, rather than to focus on the actual | :43:58. | :44:00. | |
elected leader and how they might unite around him. | :44:01. | :44:08. | |
A clue about how things are going to go could well come | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
from the Labour conference this week and how the man uses his speech. | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
from the Labour conference this week and how the Mayor uses his speech. | :44:18. | :44:20. | |
Speculation is already one running high. | :44:21. | :44:22. | |
I don't think Sadiq is going to cause too much mischief. | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
I would be surprised if he mentions Corbyn more than a few times, | :44:28. | :44:30. | |
But I think above all what he will do is use that as a message, | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
sorry, as a platform, to present himself as a rival future leader. | :44:36. | :44:38. | |
I think Sadiq is basically going to use the next nine years, | :44:39. | :44:41. | |
between now and 2025, to present himself as an alternative | :44:42. | :44:43. | |
leader for Labour who could actually become Prime Minister and take back | :44:44. | :44:46. | |
control of that place over there, the House of Commons. | :44:47. | :44:49. | |
Before getting too carried away with the idea of two warring clans, | :44:50. | :44:52. | |
it's worth remembering that Sadiq Khan has never said he wants | :44:53. | :44:54. | |
The idea of a clash between two rival powers could turn out to be | :44:55. | :45:00. | |
more of a fantasy story than a reality. | :45:01. | :45:03. | |
We could of course be jumping the gun a little. But what harm in that? | :45:04. | :45:10. | |
What do you say about the election result going back to May? Was down | :45:11. | :45:16. | |
to Sadiq Khan's unique gifts, or down to Jeremy Corbyn and Jeremy | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
Corbyn's Labour that he won? Both coming together. Which was more | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
important? I think it was the fact that amongst Londoners it was a | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
rejection of an unpleasant Tory campaign smearing Sadiq Khan as a | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
terrorist sympathiser. People were not going to do that, Londoners are | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
not stupid, they knew that Muslims and terrorists are not synonymous | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
and it was an unpleasant campaign. Jeremy threw everything behind | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
getting him elected. If you look at the result, he was only 1% less than | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
when I won in 2000, the best result we had anywhere in the country. | :45:53. | :45:58. | |
He didn't campaign with Jeremy Corbyn much during the campaign. We | :45:59. | :46:07. | |
see things like Corbyn purge could destroy the country and, you have to | :46:08. | :46:15. | |
win elections before you achieve anything. I think Sadiq Khan should | :46:16. | :46:21. | |
not be undermining Jeremy Hunt that way. He's nowhere near as bad as | :46:22. | :46:24. | |
some of the MPs in terms of what he's saying. If you look at the | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
problems I had with Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, I was expelled from | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
the Labour Party and Lord Browne didn't speak to me until he became | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
Prime Minister. I think if we saw a Labour government, Sadiq Khan and | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
Jeremy would get on fine with a major programme of investment, | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
building new council houses on things like that, and Jeremy knows | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
that. But do you think it is undermining Jeremy? It is a bit, but | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
Jeremy Paris been re-elected, everyone including Sadiq have to put | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
that behind them and we have to focus on explaining to people how we | :46:59. | :47:03. | |
can do better, grow the economy. Germany export five times what we do | :47:04. | :47:10. | |
to China. They have never allowed their banks to dictate the economy. | :47:11. | :47:15. | |
They have modernised... We have allowed hours to die out. Frankly I | :47:16. | :47:26. | |
wouldn't have got involved when I was Mayor of London in internal | :47:27. | :47:29. | |
party conflicts like that because you've got to work with whoever wins | :47:30. | :47:32. | |
and you don't want to do anything to damage your relationship with them. | :47:33. | :47:38. | |
He called for your suspension over those remarks at the time, which we | :47:39. | :47:45. | |
don't have to rehearse. He was probably misled. If you look at the | :47:46. | :47:51. | |
home affairs select it says in the statement... If I had said that, I | :47:52. | :47:57. | |
would have apologise, but I didn't say that. The fact that he chose | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
that opportunity to say you should be suspended straightaway and you | :48:03. | :48:04. | |
were someone who had backed him to be mayor? What was interesting, the | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
people backing Jeremy Campbell 90% of them were voting for Sadiq and | :48:10. | :48:16. | |
vice versa. They were both seen as good candidates with an alternative | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
to the Blair years and I think Sadiq should put that behind them now and | :48:21. | :48:26. | |
work with Jeremy. If we can elect a Labour government, Sadiq will get | :48:27. | :48:28. | |
billions of pounds for investment in London. The discussion we have is | :48:29. | :48:34. | |
all about the labour mayoral figure, but how disappointed are you with | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
that result? I was obviously hugely disappointed that Zac Goldsmith did | :48:40. | :48:42. | |
not win the election, I think he would have been a great mayor, but | :48:43. | :48:49. | |
the government will try to work constructively with Sadiq on matters | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
important to all Londoners. Ken Livingstone mentions the negative | :48:55. | :48:58. | |
nature of the campaign, widely perceived? The questions were asked | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
and Sadiq has answered them in terms of being elected and we need to move | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
on from that and work constructively together. It was a bit more than | :49:08. | :49:13. | |
that. The vast majority of the campaign was about issues of concern | :49:14. | :49:16. | |
to Londoners, how much they pay in council tax, the transport system, | :49:17. | :49:23. | |
policing. There was discussion at the end about people with whom Sadiq | :49:24. | :49:29. | |
had shared a platform but that was elected and he won, so we move on. | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
You say you want to see a constructive relationship between | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
the government and the mayor, but at the same time, you want to make | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
things difficult for him because he is a Labour mayor? We will certainly | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
hold him to account. This idea of a big difference between him and | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
Jeremy Corbyn is overplayed, frankly. What they have in common is | :49:52. | :49:54. | |
that they both want to carry on borrowing forever and they want to | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
raise taxes. I believe Labour in power in this country would be | :49:59. | :50:03. | |
severely damaging to jobs and economic stability. They are | :50:04. | :50:07. | |
different but what unites them is the not balancing the books. The | :50:08. | :50:24. | |
simple fact is that John McDonnell, every budget he produced was | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
balanced and there was not a penny of borrowing for revenue. Every | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
government, they have all borrowed. The simple fact is, with the | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
exception of two years under Nigella Lawson, Tory governments have | :50:40. | :50:45. | |
borrowed 2% to 3% of GDP to balance their budget. Before we start | :50:46. | :50:53. | |
heading into that macroeconomic, let's move on a bit. | :50:54. | :50:58. | |
We've entered a fresh phase in Ukip's life | :50:59. | :51:02. | |
with Nigel Farage stepping down and a new leader, | :51:03. | :51:04. | |
another MEP, Diane James, taking hold of the reins. | :51:05. | :51:06. | |
She describes those in favour of staying | :51:07. | :51:08. | |
60% of Londoners voted to remain, everyone acknowledges that figure. | :51:09. | :51:15. | |
My use of the term Remainiacs was to refer to the absolutely small | :51:16. | :51:18. | |
core that just want to completely ignore the outcome of | :51:19. | :51:20. | |
Should the 1 million Londoners, people working here but who come | :51:21. | :51:27. | |
from other EU member states, have anything to fear from Ukip | :51:28. | :51:30. | |
Right the way through the referendum campaign, Ukip made the point, | :51:31. | :51:42. | |
we were not looking at mass expulsion, from either | :51:43. | :51:45. | |
the United Kingdom back to Europe or expecting our member state | :51:46. | :51:47. | |
counterparts in Europe to reciprocate and expel people. | :51:48. | :51:49. | |
That is not what grown-up countries do. | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
So there is no risk, no threat at all from Ukip. | :51:55. | :51:56. | |
If anything, there is a risk and a threat coming from this | :51:57. | :51:59. | |
current government, that is yet to come off the fence | :52:00. | :52:04. | |
and actually straightforwardly set out that individuals | :52:05. | :52:06. | |
from European Union states who are here lawfully | :52:07. | :52:08. | |
and legally are here to stay and can enjoy being a member | :52:09. | :52:11. | |
and contribute to the fabric of United Kingdom's society. | :52:12. | :52:17. | |
A new face, a new town. New danger? I think Ukip are sort of struggling | :52:18. | :52:27. | |
to find a role for themselves. They are more divided than the Labour | :52:28. | :52:32. | |
Party but more importantly a lot of their supporters are rejoining the | :52:33. | :52:38. | |
Conservatives, because we gave the country the choice of whether to be | :52:39. | :52:42. | |
in the EU and now we've voted to leave, that significantly undermines | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
the point of Ukip. Do they still represent a danger to Labour in | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
particular in northern areas? Wanting to get back the east of | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
London, Kent and so on? There are a lot of traditional working class | :52:57. | :53:04. | |
areas where people felt a Labour government... In Scotland they voted | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
SNP, in the north they voted for Ukip. We have to show these people | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
that we can get homes for them to rent or buy and we can give good | :53:14. | :53:21. | |
education for their children. Theresa May asked a dozen times may | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
be to come out and stand up and be more part of supporting David | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
Cameron. A secret Brexiteer, do you think? Was she on your side, | :53:31. | :53:36. | |
privately, maybe? There were times when I did wonder! Her speech in the | :53:37. | :53:45. | |
referendum campaign expressed real concerns about the possibility of | :53:46. | :53:49. | |
Turkey joining the EU and it also said that the sky is not going to | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
fall in if we leave. There were certain pointers in it which I think | :53:54. | :53:57. | |
were a lot more pragmatic and down-to-earth than what some of the | :53:58. | :54:00. | |
other Remainers were saying. I think she was genuinely listening to both | :54:01. | :54:06. | |
sides. Do you think she had an idea that she would be challenging for | :54:07. | :54:12. | |
the leadership and all that? I think despite all the acres of newsprint | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
to the contrary, this was a defining issue for us in all parts of the | :54:17. | :54:20. | |
political spectrum. We had to decide, did we want to be an | :54:21. | :54:23. | |
independent self-governing country again? What about her and her | :54:24. | :54:28. | |
position? She was not out there fighting tooth and nail with George | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
Osborne and David Cameron and so on. She took a side and made a decision. | :54:34. | :54:38. | |
She's always been strongly in favour of the security co-operation that | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
comes with being in the EU, I think. Budgie also recognised that there | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
were credible arguments on both sides and I think that was | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
represented in how she approached the referendum campaign. | :54:53. | :54:55. | |
Now the rest of the week's political news in 60 seconds. | :54:56. | :55:02. | |
London Mayor Sadiq Khan has asked the MP for Barking, | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
Margaret Hodge, to chair a review of the Garden Bridge project. | :55:08. | :55:10. | |
Ms Hodge will examine whether value for money has been achieved | :55:11. | :55:13. | |
from the taxpayer's ?60 million contribution to the bridge. | :55:14. | :55:15. | |
The mayor has said no more taxpayer money should be spent on the bridge. | :55:16. | :55:18. | |
A compulsory purchase order to make residents of a London | :55:19. | :55:21. | |
council estate sell their flats, ahead of a regeneration | :55:22. | :55:23. | |
Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, Sajid Javid, | :55:24. | :55:26. | |
told Southwark Council it had not done enough to protect Aylesbury | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
estate residents, arguing that the residents would not be able | :55:31. | :55:32. | |
to stay on the estate or live nearby. | :55:33. | :55:39. | |
Sadiq Khan has called for London to get New York-style powers over | :55:40. | :55:42. | |
taxes and public services, following his five-day | :55:43. | :55:44. | |
tour of North America, urging the Government to devolve | :55:45. | :55:47. | |
more responsibility to City Hall over areas including transport, | :55:48. | :55:55. | |
Going ahead with the Garden Bridge, it is not to latest grab this? I | :55:56. | :56:11. | |
have to say, I'm not an enthusiast for the garden bridge. If it's going | :56:12. | :56:14. | |
to happen, I don't think there should be more public money poured | :56:15. | :56:18. | |
into it. It was always an idea as something promoted as something that | :56:19. | :56:22. | |
would be built and funded by the private sector. It has to be that, | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
doesn't it? I know there is a certain amount of money committed to | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
it already and I'm reluctant to see that, to be honest, but I don't want | :56:32. | :56:37. | |
to see any more spent on it. Labour were saying we want to build this | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
garden bridge, all the money would be raised by the private sector, | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
they didn't ask me for a penny. Now they're talking about ?60 million | :56:46. | :56:49. | |
going into it. If you've got that sort of money, that are much more | :56:50. | :56:55. | |
important areas to build a bridge, like parts of East London where | :56:56. | :56:59. | |
there aren't any bridges. I would say, if you want to build it, that's | :57:00. | :57:04. | |
fine, but don't come to me or TEFL or that money because it can be | :57:05. | :57:08. | |
better spent elsewhere. It looks like she's a bit cold on northern | :57:09. | :57:12. | |
devolution and all that stuff? I think if we devolve in London, we | :57:13. | :57:18. | |
should devolve to the borough 's. They are closest to local | :57:19. | :57:20. | |
communities. Sometimes devolution in London seems to involve a withdrawal | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
of powers from the borough is to the mayor. Absolutely dissolve | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
everything. We are the most centralised of all the Western | :57:30. | :57:41. | |
democracies. I was explaining to a Russian politician about the system | :57:42. | :57:50. | |
and he said it is worse than under Stalin! | :57:51. | :58:06. | |
Welcome back - and we're joined now by John Prescott, who's been coming | :58:07. | :58:09. | |
to Labour Conferences for more than 50 years. | :58:10. | :58:10. | |
And our political panel, Tom Newton-Dunn, Rachel Shabi | :58:11. | :58:12. | |
John Prescott, welcome back to the Sunday Politics and a Labour | :58:13. | :58:19. | |
conference. In a much changed Liverpool! I can't believe it. That | :58:20. | :58:27. | |
looks amazing. Has the Labour Party ever been at a low ahead in the past | :58:28. | :58:34. | |
50 is? It's an interesting question. I hear everyone going back 50 years | :58:35. | :58:38. | |
but we've always had fierce battles in the Labour Party, whether it was | :58:39. | :58:43. | |
nuclear or the left or the right, we used to fight over the Treasurer's | :58:44. | :58:48. | |
vote! There have always been those strong battles. It has become more | :58:49. | :58:53. | |
personal now, it is more abuse than argument and we've got to move away | :58:54. | :58:57. | |
from that. Do you share the fears of your old colleague Neil Kinnock, | :58:58. | :59:03. | |
that there might not be another Labour government in his lifetime? | :59:04. | :59:07. | |
Who was that? Neil Kinnock, former leader of the Labour Party? When I | :59:08. | :59:15. | |
heard him saying there will never be another Labour government in his | :59:16. | :59:19. | |
lifetime... Basically, Neil, you did lose to elections and Michael foot | :59:20. | :59:25. | |
lost that election. We lost with Ed Miliband... There is no doubt he's | :59:26. | :59:30. | |
got great experience of that but he is wrong! I thought we would get to | :59:31. | :59:36. | |
the answer! Is the Labour Party at a very low ebb? It is, but I think | :59:37. | :59:40. | |
you're absolutely right, it is a great myth that in the past there | :59:41. | :59:45. | |
weren't huge, passionate internal debates. Under Wilson's leadership, | :59:46. | :59:52. | |
there were problems all over the place but he won for elections out | :59:53. | :59:56. | |
of five, he always used to say. It has become much more personal now | :59:57. | :59:59. | |
with the social media thing going on in that kind of raises it to a | :00:00. | :00:02. | |
different temperature. If it was accepted they could argue | :00:03. | :00:11. | |
over policy, as was in the past and as will be the case with the | :00:12. | :00:14. | |
Conservatives over Brexit, then there might be a way of working | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
around this. As things stand at the moment it is a completely | :00:20. | :00:21. | |
nightmarish, circuitous debate where the MPs slack him off and his | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
supporters slack them off and it gets nowhere. The danger for Labour | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
is earlier in the programme we talked about elections to the NEC | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
and who will hold the balance of power there and the battles coming | :00:34. | :00:36. | |
of the argument over how to choose the Shadow Cabinet, Labour can't | :00:37. | :00:39. | |
afford another year of talking about itself. No, that is right, and the | :00:40. | :00:46. | |
public isn't remotely interested in these very tedious internal | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
machinations. Look, Jeremy Corbyn has proved himself twice. There can | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
be no clearer message that the party really needs to put this behind them | :00:55. | :00:59. | |
and focus on unifying. I think the other great myth, we're talking | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
about the myths of history and time and the centre-right. The myth is | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
that they have all the answers. They clearly don't. They haven't been | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
able to persuade their own selectors of their own eligibility and they | :01:12. | :01:17. | |
haven't been able to persuade the general public that a right words | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
shifting Labour Party is preferable and desirable. So maybe it's time | :01:21. | :01:27. | |
for them to think, you know what, Jeremy Corbyn has won two leadership | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
elections, he has caused the party to be swelled, its ranks swelled and | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
it's the largest party in Europe and people are galvanised, motivated and | :01:37. | :01:39. | |
energised in a way they haven't been for so long. People have been | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
apathetic about politics for so long. May be that wing of the party | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
has something to learn from Corbyn rather than the other way around. I | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
couldn't get Heidi Alexander to answer this. Is there any doubt that | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
Jeremy Corbyn leads Labour into the 2020 election? I think there is a | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
small doubt. He could still be toppled. Who would topple him? The | :02:01. | :02:06. | |
unions. This massive force in Labour politics, centre-left politics, | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
which no one has come close to talking about in the last few days, | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
we have a huge election coming up the after next for the Unite union. | :02:13. | :02:21. | |
Len McCluskey is running again. If he stands down, they have already | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
lost the GMB and Unison are not fond of him, if he does go it is curtains | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
for him. It is about fundamental change taking place. Everyone of us | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
has got to think differently, including me. They have all got to | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
say for the party have said this with their new members, we have a | :02:40. | :02:42. | |
different way of doing things and we want some of the old policies | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
rehearsed and put forward again. The changes, whether in the PLP, the | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
trade unions or elsewhere, things have changed, it's a big change | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
coming to the Labour Party and thank God. I remember arguing with Tony | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
Blair whether we should call it new Labour or old Labour and he wanted | :02:59. | :03:01. | |
to call it new Labour and I said why don't we call it Labour. There is a | :03:02. | :03:08. | |
change in policy, they want fundamental change, they are | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
entitled to have it, he has won two elections, why do we think of the | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
revolutionary thought, he is our leader until the next election, get | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
on for the ride and fight the Tories instead of fighting ourselves. There | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
is one really good answer to that, that is all well and good but you | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
are 26% in the polls, an all-time historic low that is where Corbyn is | :03:28. | :03:30. | |
taking them. All too often we talk about the polls. Terrible | :03:31. | :03:39. | |
inconvenience! Let us go along this road, see how we can do it, the PLP, | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
let's just for the argument is about the election of the Shadow Cabinet. | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
The PLP voted against Shadow Cabinet is only two or three years ago and | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
now it wants them back. Quite right, I support them, I've been party to | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
them. For god sake, can get on with fighting the Tories, back the | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
leadership for the moment? I have to say to Jeremy, talking about splits | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
in part is, we have already wondering, Momentum crazy things, | :04:07. | :04:17. | |
argue the case for change. Electoral College instead of one man, one | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
vote. I've always fought for one man one vote. That would be going | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
backwards, would it not? It would strengthen the PLP. We have to look | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
at all of these fears and do a proper conference as I advocate, but | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
think about it first. We have ?3 members at Miliband came through and | :04:37. | :04:39. | |
whacked that through special conference. We need to think about | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
how we've done things in the past, trade unions, members of Parliament, | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
PLP members, they want change, they are entitled democratically to see | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
if we will listen to them at implement it democratically. Jeremy | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
must show leadership. What does showing leadership mean? There are | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
two things. The election of a Shadow Cabinet if you want to do that. | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
Elected by whom? That could be the PLP to begin with. We can't wait | :05:06. | :05:12. | |
until the conference comes along, 11th of October. These things are | :05:13. | :05:14. | |
constitutional. In the coming elections he is the leader, he could | :05:15. | :05:23. | |
put in people he feels he has to have their in the Shadow Cabinet, | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
because it's all about power distribution, and give the PLP the | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
right to put some people in and then look at the issues of whether other | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
members should be involved. That's the long-term. At the moment a team | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
ready for fighting Theresa May, she will be worse than Thatcher. We are | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
here in the great traditional Labour city, the heartland of traditional | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
Labour support. Does anybody in Liverpool care how the Shadow | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
Cabinet is selected? I doubt meet people just outside this building | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
are talking about that. They will be because they are journalists! I | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
don't even think they will be! In a way we are contradicting ourselves | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
because we are saying we should not spend time talking about it and we | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
are all talking about it. The so-called rebels misjudged this | :06:09. | :06:11. | |
completely in terms of timing, when they all resigned on the Sunday | :06:12. | :06:14. | |
after the referendum, they didn't ask, do we have a candidate? What | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
happens if Jeremy Corbyn doesn't go as a result of this and have they | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
got themes that can unite the rest of the membership, or a new | :06:23. | :06:31. | |
membership could to? We keep talking about the voters. Let's not talk | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
about the Shadow Cabinet because that is an insider conversation. | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
About the voters, we don't know whether Jeremy Corbyn is electable | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
or not. We don't know how he would fare with a united team behind him | :06:44. | :06:50. | |
with over 500,000 members canvassing, campaigning, talking | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
about his policies. We don't know if for this time, in a time when we are | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
dealing with massive inequalities, when we're dealing with rampant... | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
Just, food banks, child poverty and things that should not happen in one | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
of the wealthiest countries in the world. We don't know whether what | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
the Labour Party proposes under Jeremy Corbyn will resonate. We will | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
have a chance to find out. One of the things that is interesting is | :07:16. | :07:17. | |
that clearly the membership of the party has changed dramatically, even | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
in the past 12 months. Will the Parliamentary party change as a | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
result of that? There has been talk of the and reselection. This is what | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
Mr Corbyn had to say this morning. The relationship | :07:30. | :07:36. | |
between an MP and their It's not necessarily | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
all the policy tick It's also the relationships, | :07:40. | :07:41. | |
the community, the effectiveness of representation | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
and all those issues. Let's have a democratic discussion | :07:45. | :07:45. | |
and I think the vast majority of MPs will have | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
no problem whatsoever. Is it's not inevitable, given that | :07:49. | :07:59. | |
you've talked about it yourself, this huge change taking place in the | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
Labour Party membership, that the Parliamentary party will have to | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
change to reflect that? To some extent the PLP is the creation of | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
the previous membership, not the new membership. That is right. Some | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
people were opposing him within weeks when he was elected and | :08:17. | :08:19. | |
pulling out of the cabinet and I don't think they will change. They | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
might want to stay on the backbenches, they don't want to | :08:24. | :08:26. | |
divide the party so they will fight for the party from the backbenches. | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
The greater majority of those in the PLP they didn't want to go on this | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
road of no confidence, that was one when they were kidded into believing | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
that if they had a begin of no confidence he would pick of the | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
revolver and shoot himself. It never was going to happen. So let's say, | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
keep your view, if you don't want to get involved, fine, but now you are | :08:46. | :08:53. | |
required to take account, looking at the policy issues between us rather | :08:54. | :09:00. | |
than fighting ourselves. He has got to show leadership. He is the man in | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
charge of it. That's why the election of the Capanagh has become | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
more important inside the PLP. It's a struggle, isn't it? The PLP | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
produced a whole package of things with electoral reform. Let's get on | :09:14. | :09:16. | |
with that, put it on the side, get a team ready for October the 11th to | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
fight the Tories are using our energy and fighting the Tories and I | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
think the majority of MPs are on board for that. Will Rachel get to | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
see her united Labour Party behind Mr Corbyn going into another | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
election? No. This is it. We have to look at the facts on the table, the | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
Labour Party, the PLP and the people in the country, those people who | :09:40. | :09:42. | |
voted for Owen Smith, they are so far apart ideologically, the hard | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
left and there is the Blairite right and those two will never unite and | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
it's all very well John saying so and I admire your optimism but you | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
and I know it will not happen. It has got to for our people. The party | :09:55. | :10:00. | |
and our country wants it. If your press get onside instead of being so | :10:01. | :10:03. | |
vicious about Corbyn, not just your paper, but most of them have had a | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
kind of hostility that has not been seen before. It has taken ten | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
minutes but eventually we got there. Perhaps we will wait and see. The | :10:14. | :10:22. | |
ideological gap is as big as the 80s, partly because on both sides | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
there is a complete lack of clarity about what they believe in and where | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
they want to go. The early 80s, Roy Jenkins knew exactly what there were | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
four and so did Tony Benn. There is that clarity of vision now. It is | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
all blurred and muddled so there is a problem and an opportunity there. | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
Second, I think the crunch point in this Parliament for Jeremy Corbyn, | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
not now obviously, but if and when the Tories have a crisis over Brexit | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
and if at that point Labour are 25, 20 6% in the polls he will have a | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
crisis. Let me interrupt you because the really big political event | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
yesterday wasn't what was happening here in Liverpool, it happened on | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
BBC One on your TV screens. It was Ed Balls in Strictly. Let's see how | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
that went. Dancing the waltz, | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
Ed Balls and Katya Jones. There we go, glitter balls on | :11:17. | :11:44. | |
strictly. I bet you wish you had been there. I turned it down some | :11:45. | :11:51. | |
time ago. So did I! What was the woman who did it? Edwina. BBC | :11:52. | :11:58. | |
journalists, the public like people like that and supported in many ways | :11:59. | :12:01. | |
but they fall out because they can't dance. That is a drawback. They love | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
them for not dancing, they love the fact they are trying. But they | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
didn't win. I love dancing myself, but frankly you've got to have some | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
movement. There has got to be a flow in the body and the feel of the | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
music. I think you've got it there! You want to do it, I can tell! | :12:22. | :12:28. | |
Doesn't he? He wants to do it. That is not dancing, it's about the | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
movement of the body, the music and the spirit. You should be a judge on | :12:35. | :12:41. | |
the programme. I give it eight! Today talking about Jeremy Corbyn, | :12:42. | :12:48. | |
they love this, it humanises it. You can see a petition to get him on. I | :12:49. | :12:55. | |
can see it happening. We may have to speak to compliance about it! | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
Anyway, it has become a part of the Constitution that you and I have to | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
meet at a Labour conference, so it's good to see you. Two comedians | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
together. One day we might get a proper job! | :13:10. | :13:10. | |
I'll be back next week at the Conservative Party | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
Conference in Birmingham with more Sunday Politics. | :13:16. | :13:17. | |
And I'll be back tomorrow with the Daily Politics at 11am | :13:18. | :13:19. | |
over on BBC Two with more from the Labour Conference | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
We will bring you what is happening in the Labour conference and the | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
Shadow Chancellor's speech too. Remember, if it's Sunday, | :13:29. | :13:31. | |
it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:32. | :13:36. |