14/09/2014 The Andrew Marr Show

The grimmest news overnight for all of us, north and south of the

border, a British hostage, David Haines, has been executed. The news

sends a shudder even through the extraordinary referendum campaign in

Scotland from where we bring you the programme. The most important moment

in British politics since the Second World War. All we know is that the

referendum is very, very close and on the edge, on the cusp.

Remarkably, it is heading to a dead heat. Whatever happens, the

300-year-old union is going to change dramatically. Separation, we

are told, or a new federal arrangement, perhaps. Who really

knows and who can we trust? This morning I am joined by the Scottish

First Minister and leader of the independent campaign, Alex Salmond,

and his opponent, Alistair Darling, leader of Better Together. Who

should go first, we decided the only fair way was a toss of a coin. In a

city alive with debate and fizzing with argument, the newspaper review

features Edinburgh locals, Alex Massie, and on the independent site,

the bestselling crime writer Val MacDiarmid. It's not just political

godfathers. Al Pacino joins us from Hollywood to talk about his latest

prospect, a gory tale of loss, Oscar world's Salome. And we rounded off

with traditional music from the New Generation -- Oscar Wilde. First,

over to London for the news. Good morning.

The Prime Minister has condemned the murder of the British aid worker,

A video of Mr Haines, which apparently shows him

being beheaded, was released online by Islamic State militants.

David Cameron has vowed to do everything possible to hunt

The video also includes a threat to kill a second British hostage.

Less than 24 hours ago, it was revealed that the family of David

Haines had appealed to his captors to make contact with them. Their

response was a video said to show his murder. Prime Minister, what are

your thoughts about the hostage? Late last night the Prime Minister

return to Downing Street saying the killing was despicable and

appalling. In statements posted on Twitter, David Cameron said the

murder of David Haines was an act of pure evil, adding that he would do

everything in his power to hunt down these murderers and ensure they face

justice, however long it takes. David Haynes had spent years coming

to the aid of war-torn countries -- David Haines. In 2003 he was filmed

in Croatia helping people to return to homes they had abandoned. There

are many people who do want to return and they don't know how and

who to turn to. In doing this, the office normally goes across to

Belgrade and actually meets the people so they can gain trust from

us. Colleagues say he was passionate about his work, but last year, when

the relief operation in northern Syria, he was kidnapped. He had been

in the country but just a few days. The 44-year-old, who had two

children, grew up in Scotland and was educated at Perth Academy.

Paying tribute, his family said he was most alive and enthusiastic in

his humanitarian roles. The video footage also includes a threat to

kill a second British person who has been captured. The question now is

how the government responds when the emergency committee meets later.

The death of David Haines has prompted

the Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott to say that more needs to be

He announced that Australia is to send 600 troops and fighter jets to

the United Arab Emirates to assist the international coalition

It follows a formal request from the United States.

The two sides in the Scottish independence debate are targeting

people who have still not made up their mind about how they will vote

A number of new opinion polls have been published -

but they suggest that the contest is still too close to call.

In Ukraine, there's been further heavy fighting

That's despite the ceasefire agreed a week ago between the government

Ukrainian soldiers say they've repelled an attack

by rebels who control much of the rest of the city.

Hundreds of thousands of people remain trapped by floodwaters

Military specialists blew up three dykes in order to save cities from

the raging floodwaters that have already killed hundreds of people.

Officials say more than 2 million people have been affected

I'll be back with the headlines just before ten o'clock.

Now to the papers, and with me to review the papers are Val McDermid

Donald Dewar looking a little forlorn there. On the Sunday Post, a

very union orientated cover with both flags. The Sunday Times has

Scotland's future on a knife edge. All the papers agree it is now too

close to call and we will talk about it in a minute. Or editorialising

FrontPage on the skunk -- Sunday. Scottish soldiers lost their lives

trying to preserve the United Kingdom. What will the family say

now, well, it no longer matters. We were talking about the ghastly

beheading story. Jihad each of their heads Scottish suspect -- jihad each

-- Jihadi john. So to the newspapers. Val, your first story,

we have to talk about the hostage crisis, that ghastly story. It's a

terrible story and it's hard to know what to say except to express deep

sadness and disgust at what is going on here. It is a terrible, terrible

thing, particularly when it is aid workers who are being treated in

this way. People who have gone there with the sole intention of trying to

ameliorate what is a terrible state. Alex, this is clearly a good man.

Yes, clearly, murdered by appalling people, people who do for once merit

the description the scum of humanity. They are like the Croatian

regime in the Second World War whose attitude was: -- kill a third,

convert a third of Orthodox Serbs and Jews, and we are seeing a

reversion to that kind of barbarism in the Middle East and it poses an

extraordinary challenge for policymakers. The papers don't pick

up on the policy applications. A bit too early for the papers to comment

on that. It is a difficult thing to have a strategy in this situation

because it seems everything we have done in the past has pushed the

dominoes over quicker and there might be an argument for saying it's

the time to step away. The question of paying or not paying as the other

one. The French pay for hostages and we don't. Anyway, moving on to the

other stories, and the Scottish story, which rightly dominates

everything. Val, you have the front of the Sunday Herald. Most of the

London papers are very pro-union, so it's interesting to see a

pro-independence FrontPage. A remarkable wrap around in the Sunday

Herald which is essentially the many faces of Scotland. It is a reminder

to us that this is not a monochrome nation any more, that Scotland has

become a multicultural place. A place of welcome. It's amazing to

sit here and look at the faces, because I could study this all

morning. Alex, you have chosen the Sunday Times, which has done a big

job on this, including interviewing both of my two guests today. Have we

learnt anything new? I'm not sure at this late stage after nearly three

years of official campaigning and 30 or 40 years of constitutional

thought that there is really the opportunity to learn more that is

dramatically new. But Jason alibis, the editor of the Scottish Sunday

Times has done a nice job here. He suggests towards the end of his

piece activities a no vote then Alex Salmond might step down and make way

for his deputy, Nicola Sturgeon, which might be news to both of them.

But it concludes, quite correctly, that even a no vote will lead to the

devolution of greater powers and powers of the sort that the Scottish

National party could have scarcely greened up 20 years ago. Now, Val,

-- scarcely dream of 20 years ago. Now, Val, who are the crucial

campaigners? It depends on who you read and look at. We have papers

here saying that traditional Labour heartlands hold the key to the fate

of the union. Migrant groups hold the key in the boat. But I actually

think this might be a crucial group here. Groundskeeper Willie from The

Simpsons has declared himself as a yes. They always hold the key. They

always have. There are whole bunch of keys out there it seems. Alex,

your neck story. So many -- your next story. There are so many

different groups claiming that they are the key one, but Scotland on

Sunday has a nice story that revisits a pair of twins,

17-year-old boys, who were the first babies born after the 1997

devolution referendum that established the Scottish Parliament.

The paper had them on the front page back then and it has gone back to

them and interviewed them. The paper did refer to them as the yes yes

twins in 1997, they are both going to vote no this time. I much enjoyed

on the streets of Edinburgh watching bemused, non-English speaking

tourists being grabbed by yes and no campaigners and given badges. I have

never seen Edinburgh like this. Absolutely extraordinary. Everywhere

people are talking, shops, pubs, the streets, everywhere there is an

incredible conversation going on. It's not just in Edinburgh, it's

throughout Scotland, where ever I have been in the last few weeks it's

been the same thing. When I've not been in Scotland, it's whether it's

-- it is the first question people ask. Cab drivers or German

journalist, people want to know. All these different faces and

experiences. What is your personal perspective? It took me a long time

to make a decision because it seemed that wherever you ask, you got a

different answer and there was no clear path to the future. In the end

I looked at the past for the answer and I looked at what the Scottish

Parliament has done since we have had a Scottish parliament and it

seemed to be, broadly speaking, that the things they had done, free

prescriptions, free tertiary education, national health service,

they all seem to be in tune with my own broad instincts of social

democracy, so that was the basis where I came to the yes vote. A lot

of them put by -- put through by English votes by a Welshman. An

interesting story in the Sunday Herald, and it is a musician who is

talking about the analogy, if you like, between the break-up of her

marriage and the break-up of the United Kingdom. She acknowledges the

imperfect nurse of the analogy but talks about the way you learn new

ways of doing things on the adjustments that need to be made.

It's an interesting example of how people 's personal experience has

fed into their attitudes. And then strategies the healing, whatever

happens. Whatever happens, things are not going to be the same in

Scotland. The level of engagement with politics is remarkable. I've

never seen anything like it in my lifetime. I think Scotland must have

the best politically educated population anywhere in the world at

the moment, at any rate. You will move onto another story about

jihadists. Another huge story. Two stories here. There are a group of

prominent British Muslims writing to the Observer newspaper asking the

Prime Minister and the rest of the political and media classes,

presumably, to cease calling them Islamic State, they are saying there

is nothing Islamic about their actions and ideology, which is an

important distinction to make, but I'm not quite sure what we could

call them except by what they call themselves. And in the Sunday Times

you have the former commissioner of special operations at the

Metropolitan Police suggesting that whether we like it or not, any

returning jihadists from Syria or Iraq should be rewarded to recant

and win the propaganda war. You picked up one non-Scottish story. In

the Sunday Telegraph, Peter O Bourne has a piece on the first of a series

of pieces about modern slavery. This is a subject that the government has

made some headway with and could still do more. It could set an

example for other countries around the world and it is the sort of grim

downside of globalisation, in some ways. Something that maybe doesn't

receive as much attention as it should, and this is another scourge

that needs to be eliminated. We cannot finish an Edinburgh-based

paper review without mentioning the rival -- Ryder Cup. Slightly golf

close this morning, if I might say. Have you picked a golfing story?

Yes, at the time of the Ryder Cup it's important to notice that the

Royal and ancient at St Andrews is having the crucial vote on whether

they should let women in. We are about to enter the 19th century and

St Andrews by letting women be part of the golf world. That is a very

good thing. Thank you for being part of the paper review. Now I will

speak to Gordon Parreira in London. Gordon, I gather there will be a

meeting in an hour or so in Downing Street?

Yes, the emergency committee Cobra being chaired by the Prime Minister,

also with the foreign secretaries and intelligence officials looking

at a response this terrible killing. We have already heard from the Prime

Minister describing it as an act of pure evil and saying everything will

be done to bring those behind the murder to justice. We have had a lot

of confusion about the British government's attitude to joining the

Americans in bombing ISIS, do you think this will be the moment we get

some clarity after this ghastly crime? I certainly think this

changes the intensity around but question, of trying to work out

whether Britain will be involved in direct military action. It is arming

the Kurds who are taking on Islamic State, but whether it gets involved

in direct air strikes in Iraq, and of course America is even

considering air strikes in Syria, I think that has been an issue where

the Government has still been looking at it. Whether as an instant

reaction to this video they are likely to change their position, I'm

not sure about that. It may be that they will want to continue to

consider that over the coming days, but we will have to wait and see

what comes out of this meeting, as all of the senior officials get

together to decide what their response will be to this video. A

lot of people's thoughts will be with the second hostage and the

family of the second named British hostage, any news about that? No, is

this second hostage at the end of this video, in the same way David

Haines was seen at the end of the video of Steven Sotloff. It is

terrible for his family but also for the Government as a whole in how to

respond to this. Britain says it does not pay ransom to these groups

for hostages, that has been a long-standing policy, the view is

that it would be potentially funding those groups. But without the

possibility of making concessions in any way, which is against British

policy, there are very few good options. Rescue attempts were locked

out, the US special forces went in in July but they came out

empty-handed. I think one of the challenges for the Government and

for Cobra when it meets will be really the lack of good options when

it comes to dealing with this terrible situation. There are not

always good answers for good questions. Thank you. Now to the

weather. When I arrived in Edinburgh

yesterday, it was bathed in warm, golden sunshine - the Athens

of the north in more ways than one. What's in store for the rest of the

weekend, here and around the UK? Over to Matt Taylor

in the weather studio. Not much sunshine for you there

today, you can see how extensive the cloud is but we have some breaks

around the Moray Firth. There will be some good cloud breaks in the

south-east, but here we will see some heavy showers through the day.

That will be the story for much of the UK, another dry day. Whilst

temperatures will be a little down on yesterday, still warm datacom.

Later in the night, eastern Scotland and north-east England is where it

will become more damp with extensive hill fog to take us into Monday

morning. Not a desperately chilly start to Monday but a cloudy one by

and large. Some heavy bursts of rain in north-east England, particularly

on the Pennines. Elsewhere one or two showers possible, but mostly

will stick with the dry story. Temperatures will climb as we go

into Tuesday and Wednesday. A bit more cloud further north, and in

Scotland some further rain at times. So, to the first of our big

political beasts this morning - Scotland's First Minister, leader of

the independence campaign I must ask you first about your

reflections on this ghastly news of David Haines. It is an unspeakable

act of barbarism. Our condolences go to the members of his family, who

have borne this with such fortitude in recent months. Some of the family

are of course in Scotland. That's correct, and David himself spent

many years in Scotland. There will be a meeting to look at our specific

response, the Scottish Government's equivalent of Cobra. For example the

privacy of his family in the coming days is one of our concerns, and a

wider responsibility to the community of Scotland. --

communities. So there are community relations to be thought about.

That's right. The Jewish communities were not responsible in the Syrian

attacks... What about the other controversial issue of paying for

hostages, the British government does not, do you support that? We

have given total support of the Foreign Office and their efforts to

secure his release. We will also give support to any other hostages

who may be concerned. You cannot have a situation where you about

terrorism. It would be, I think, useful if a strategy and policy were

developed because there has been... I am talking about generalities. The

better system for negotiation? No, in terms of the overall attitude to

Iraq. The President of the United States has said he will develop a

strategy, I think that is required. We don't know what the British

government's attitude to bombing will be, what would your view be? I

think there is an urgent requirement to get back under collective action

from the United States. There is no reason to believe that China or

Russia will see the state interest as being anything other than dealing

with this extremism. There is a real opportunity for effective,

international, legal action but it must come in that fashion and I

would urge that to be an urgent consideration to be a collective

response to what is a threat to humanity. Let's go to the politics

of Scotland now. It seems to be going down to the wire, a whisper of

a difference between the parties according to the opinion polls. If

you win by 0.01%, or ten votes, is that it - Scotland is independent,

no going back? Harold Wilson famously said there is -- that one

vote is enough in a referendum. One of the great assets of our campaign

is that we don't regard any section of Scottish society beyond our

reach. We tend to take the attitude that there is not so much as a no

vote in Scotland, only deferred yesterday. I ask you again, a yes

vote is a yes vote and that is that? The Edinburgh agreement says

we will have the referendum, it will be decided by a simple majority,

both sides will accept the results and then crucially the Government

will act in the best interests of the people of Scotland and the rest

of the UK, having accepted that democratic verdict. So if it is a no

vote by a whisker, is that it? Do you come back with another

referendum in a few years? You have talked about it being for a

generation, is that still your view? Yes, it is. There was a

referendum in 1979 and the next one was 1997, that is what I mean by

political generation. In my opinion, this is a once in a generation

opportunity. You are talking about a 20 year gap, so can you pledge Alex

Salmond will not bring back another referendum if you don't win this

one? That is my view. This is perhaps even a once-in-a-lifetime

opportunity for Scotland. If you win, presumably you have a malt, a

round of golf, and then what happens? I will go to the Ryder Cup

the following week, I'm not sure about the malts. Firstly it will be

a day of celebration that Scotland will have achieved something

astonishing, but there was a lot of business to do. The first urgent

business is to bring Scotland together because after Friday there

will cease to be a yes and no campaign, there will be a Team

Scotland, and in that team I want as many voices as possible, people with

something to contribute. Are you talking about Gordon Brown, people

like him who have had an adverse -- vociferous voice in the debate? Yes,

and Alistair Carmichael has said clearly following a yes vote he will

resign and join team Scotland, and I welcome that. You will bring

together a team. Do you know roughly speaking how big the team is and who

is in it, and they then negotiate the terms? Yes, and there are three

aspects. We need to have a variety of fields, some extraordinary people

with great things to contribute. Nobody has said no, incidentally.

Secondly, there is the community of Scotland, the third sector, the SCT,

the small business organisations, the voluntary sector. They have a

particular detail over a range of things that have been negotiated

which is very important. Thirdly, the spectrum of politics to bring

the country together. You will expect from me on Friday, under the

circumstances of a yes vote, you will get from me on Friday a strong

and early indication about how Team Scotland brings the country

together. In terms of negotiation the most important thing is

presumably still the currency. As you have your argument with George

Osborne over the terms of keeping the pound, there will be a period of

indecision. Indecision can be very damaging for the Scottish economy if

this goes on and on. We should have early decisions. Scotland will have

the referendum next Thursday, but for 18 months the Bank of England

remains in control and the Government of the Bank of England

have been clearer about this, that he is responsible for financial

stability over that period. Clearly it is in everyone's interests to

have the earliest possible decisions on this matter and that is what we

will do. Once the smoke of the referendum has cleared the field, on

Friday everybody has an interest in following the terms of the Edinburgh

agreement and sitting down, and in its own words and the words of that

agreement, acting in the best interests of Scotland and the rest

of the UK. We will have a different attitude in terms of how we will

bring this together. Under your plan, Scotland will still be under

the thumb of the Bank of England, based in London, full of English

bankers, under the thumb of the Conservative government. Founded by

a Scot. Mervyn King pointed out in front of the Commons committee, the

last Governor of the Bank of England, the Bank of England was

founded by a Scot but it is the bank for England, Wales, Scotland and

Northern Ireland. Under our plan it would be a shared central bank. Do

you accept their fiscal rules? The Bank of England doesn't set fiscal

rules. There will be a sustainability agreement. An

agreement between the Government in terms of borrowing levels and debt

levels, we set that out in our proposals. It is responsible for

monetary policy. The Bank of England operate as an independent central

bank and it would be shared under our proposals. I expect, very soon

after next Friday when the referendum incentive to provide

obstacles in the path of Scotland will be dissipated, then we will

agreement is for a common currency. Mr druggie has said, and I want to

return to the European subject, that for Scotland to share the pound

without a fiscal contract would be against the rules of the European

Union. Is he right about that? It would require a Financial Conduct

Authority. These are the rules. We did share some about this but in

today's papers, I was interested in an article from an economist who

makes two important points, one that the success of small European

nations and in the land of Adam Smith nobody should doubt

Scotland's economic competence, and also that in this particular

situation is shared currency is a very When it comes to Europe, do you

have the idea that Scotland is already a member postindependence?

Negotiations can be completed in 18 months. Do you start from the

outside coming in? No, we are inside. So you don't have to apply

for membership? We are inside and we have do negotiate a position that

requires the agreement of other European countries. Why am I

confident about 18 months? It is a short timescale though. Professor

James Crawford, who was paid by the UK Government to distinguish

international law, when he was asked about this, he said he thought it

was a realistic timescale. You think all the details of the separation

can be accomplished in 18 months, military, financial, economic

question -- economic? The Speaker of the House of Commons spotted things

being called separation in the documents, so let's call it

independence. I could quote legal opinion until the end of the

programme and expert opinion, but can I answer this in four figures,

which is one, 20, 25, and 60. One is the population in the EU,. 20 is the

share of the fish stocks. 25 is the renewable energy. And 60% is the oil

reserves of the whole of the European Union in Scottish waters. I

don't think anybody in the rest of Europe is wanting to exclude

renewable rich, oil-rich Scotland. I think that is a ridiculous premise.

Have you spoken to the Spanish, French, Italians, the Belgians, all

of whom have expressed worries in the part -- passed about separatist

groups? The answer is yes to all of groups? The answer is yes to all of

the point. That's very interesting. Can we move onto big issue, you

mentioned the NHS again and again in the last couple of weeks. Isn't it

true that the biggest threat to the NHS in Scotland or England is the

new trade investment plan between the EU and American 's which would

allow American companies to come in and sue the Scottish Government if

you did not allow the privatisation of the NHS in Scotland bastion of

that is a very substantial issue -- in Scotland. That is a very

substantial issue, and one of the UK minister said on the BBC yesterday

the this might be an argument for independence. If the NHS remains in

the trade agreement, as long as the state does not have a private sector

of any substance, they will be able to detect a public health service.

The danger to the NHS in Scotland coming from the agreement was if

there is privatisation in the UK as a state, then the argument would be

correct. A Scottish NHS could be under attack, but that is a

substantial reason for being independent. The EU, which you want

to join, is determined to get the pack. How will you go into the EU

and get them to exclude the health service? Can I try again? The

position is, if you take the view you don't want a substantial private

sector in the health service, you can do that under the terms of the

agreement. It is where you have opened up the health service, and if

it is opened up in England, that's another reason why if we stay in the

UK, that opens up the National Health Service in Scotland to

potential privatisation. In today's newspaper is one of the most

interesting declaration is from Harry Burns, recently retired Chief

Medical Officer of Scotland who writes eloquently not just on this

issue, but the general issue of how the National Health Service would be

better if it took more authority and control. One more thing before we

run out of time. We've made it clear yourself that you support the Queen

as head of state. Does that mean that Hanoverian succession will

carry on in an independent Scotland? Why should an independent Scotland

not be able to choose her own head of state? Just a bit of history. I

pointed out in my answer that Scotland and England had had the

same moniker almost 100 years and were independent countries. -- the

same moniker for. A lot of your supporters are Republicans though. I

am sure there are Republicans in England as well, but the balance of

Scottish opinion is that we want Her Majesty the Queen to be the Queen of

Scotland and her successors. Can you be clear that there would not be a

referendum on the Scottish monarchy after the Scottish vote? The poll

that showed the most consternation, the one you asked the Chancellor

about and he got overwrought about, that also asked the question about

the monarchy and showed a very, very substantial majority wanted people

to see Her Majesty as the Queen of Scots. And there would be Charles

the third and so forth? She would be proud to serve. He is greatly

respected and loved in Scotland, and he reciprocates that with his love

and respect for Scotland. And that is a pledge from you? I am First

Minister of Scotland and that is my judgement. We want to see Her

Majesty the Queen as the Queen of Scots, and I think that is a

fantastic title and prospect. Alex Salmond, thank you for joining us.

Al Pacino is one of cinema's most iconic actors.

Having made his name in The Godfather films and

in Scarface, he's no stranger to playing imperious psychopaths.

Now, as King Herod, in Oscar Wilde's Salome, he has filmed the role that

He's also made a documentary about his obsession with Wilde's play.

When he joined me from Hollywood, Al Pacino told me

about the huge impact on him when he saw Salome for the first time,

As it was going on, I thought I was hearing stuff in this play that is

mesmerising. It is riveting, and I am sort of falling in love with this

writer and what he has to say and what he is doing. I kept thinking

about his words, and I thought they were inspired. I know it has been

accused, the language, of being flawed and a bit over the top. But I

didn't feel that. It's highly poetic can charge. You perform it in a very

specific way -- highly poetic and charged. It's the opposite of a

naturalistic performance. Sala May, come. Meet the little fruit. --

Salome. I love to see in a fruit the mark of the little teeth. I am not

hungry. You see how you have brought up this daughter of yours. My

daughter and I come of a royal race. My father was a camel driver and a

robber. I look down at my programme and wondered who had written it.

Believe it or not, I thought it was someone who was among us now. And

then I realised it was Oscar Wilde because I felt, while watching the

play, that I really wanted to meet this writer and talk to him because

he felt, to me, like a profit. Even Oscar Wilde could not have dreamt

the strange echoes you have got now, with the Middle East, religious

extremism, bad, tyrannical rulers, beheadings. It feels unpleasantly

contemporary, if I can put it that way. Yes, as most things that are

classic do. You can come back to them. They are written hundreds of

years ago, even thousands, and you are still able to relate. And that

is why they are still around. My connection started there. I knew I

wanted to play the role. Please tell me the thing that you desire, I

would give all that you ask, I would give to you. Save for one thing. I

would give you all that is mine. Save one life. Can I scroll back to

some of the great early role she played and asked, with the Godfather

films in particular, -- you play. Were you aware when you are making

them how great they would be? They are so much loved and revered. Did

it feel like that when you are making them. I never wanted this for

you. Well, when you are in the mix of a film, and I was quite young

when I did it was at first not really wanted in the picture, except

for Francis, who me. I've always said when a director really want

cheaper something, you better just try and listen to that and go with

it, because that is part of directing and casting. He stuck with

me. My father made him an offer he could not refuse. At the time,

studios didn't know who I was, so they did not know why he wanted me.

Or Marlon Brando, for that matter, but he stuck with his vision. There

are so many great films after that, but Scarface in particular, Tony

Montana, a great film again, but it brings a new level of violence to

the cinema. You have small kid yourself now, are you in anyway

queasy, in retrospect, about the level of violence the film

portrayed? I think there is an energy in that movie that goes past

the violent acts, and Brian De Palma saw this movie as operatic and over

the top to deal with social concern at the time, of the period, which

was this new period in the 80s of avarice and greed. The people who go

to the movies, since then, and at the time, they have taken to it.

There are so many other great films we could talk about, but we're

running out of time. A great privilege and pleasure for having

you on the show. Baquba joining us. Oh, thank you. -- thank you for

joining us. And Al Pacino's film of Salome,

plus his documentary about Oscar Wilde and the play,

will be screened in a double bill There'll also be a question

and answer session with Al Pacino which will be broadcast live to

cinemas across the UK. Well,

we heard earlier from Alex Salmond. Now the case against independence,

from the leader of the Better Not that long ago you were 20 points

ahead. What has gone wrong? I said a year ago, as you did as well, I

think, that the race would narrow as we got to the wire. It's not

surprising, is the biggest single decision we would ever take. If we

vote to leave the UK on Thursday, there is no going back. It's not

like an election where you can change mind if things don't work

out. If things go wrong this time, we've already voted and there is no

way back, which is why, in the next five days, we will be targeting the

500,000 voters who still have to make their minds up, because the

decision is that critical. We heard from George Osborne last week, and

then from Gordon Brown, that there would be radical plans for extra

devolution and new fiscal and monetary powers and job creation

powers of the Scottish Parliament. When will we see that? Will we see

it before the vote? What is clear that if we say no to the risks of

independence and stay in the UK, you will get a stronger Scottish

Parliament and the as new tax powers and they can do that. And it is

quite a clear choice. We can have faster, safer, better reform so we

can strengthen the health service, safeguard jobs, but you don't have

the risk that comes with independence to jobs, with the

funding of pensions, the health service. Mr Osborne suggested the

parties had done a deal and we would see the details. Is there a deal

done? Will we see details before the vote? What has been agreed is the

timetable that will bring together the proposals made by the

non-nationalist parties, and we will start the process on Friday if we

are staying in the UK. The majority of people in Scotland actually want

to see that we can have the best of both worlds, with a strong Scottish

parliament, so we can safeguard the funding of the health service, for

example. But at the same time, we get the jobs that come from as being

part of the UK. There are about a million jobs in Scotland which

depend on being part of the UK. You have certainty about the money being

used, and the funding of the health service and pensions. It sounds to

me that there isn't a deal at the moment. The agreement was made

earlier this week. The Labour Party had a different view on the future

tax raising powers and the fiscal autonomy compared to the

Conservatives and Liberal Democrats. Are those details sorted? There are

differences, but what happened before 1997, when the Labour

government legislated to set up the Scottish parliament and two or three

years ago with the latest reforms coming through in relation to

borrowing, stamp duty and so on, the parties came together. The only

party absent from the discussions were the Nationalists, who never

wanted anything to do with it. Some people say, listening to this, it's

like what you accused the Nationalists are doing, cross your

fingers and hope there will be a deal. There will be, because the

differences between the parties are very small. What does concern me is

that five days before most of us go to the polling station, we still

don't know answers to basic questions. In the last week... There

is absolute clarity as far as strengthening the Scottish

Parliament and the certainty that can bring as changes locked in, but

we still don't know how we can ensure that we don't lose jobs with

firms saying they would take their HQ from Scotland. That would be a

disaster. We still don't know how you will replace the additional

funding we get for the National Health Service. We don't know who

will pay pensions. And you are asking Alex Salmond about currency,

and he seemed to be doing a rather premature victory lap before most of

us have voted. But he was asserting that, lo and behold, on Friday

morning everybody else is wrong and we will all fall into line. if there

is a yes vote, it is essential to make a deal quickly. The real

problem is that it is not in the interest of Scotland to have a

currency union because it means that actually your economic policy would

be decided in London, and for the rest of the UK they would have to

underwrite our banking system without being able to regulate it.

To suggest that everybody else is wrong, and don't worry on Friday

morning it will all be different, let alone in Europe when you have 28

other member states... What concerns me is that someone who lives in

Scotland, I don't want to see my country subjected to years of

uncertainty with all the risks. We saw a bit of that last week. I don't

want to see that in the future when you don't need to have it because we

can have the change we want within the framework of the UK,

safeguarding our pensions and health service. This is what the yes

campaign calls scaremongering, what we haven't had over the past year or

so is a passionate defence of Britain, what people have fought

for, the achievements of Britain. I don't accept that. We helped build

the UK, it wasn't imposed upon us, Scotland had far more influence over

the rest of the UK than anyone could possibly imagine. It is a huge thing

that we have achieved. What we have achieved together in peace time,

wartime, the welfare state, the NHS, there are massive things to be proud

of. In this referendum of course we look forward and the world moves on,

but I believe most people in Scotland want to see a stronger

Scottish Parliament. But you cannot tell us what its powers would be?

The difference between the non-nationalist parties are so small

that I don't think there is any doubt that we will not only have the

power to raise taxes but if we want to spend more money on the NHS, they

can do that. What you avoid though are the risks that will undoubtedly

come from this uncertainty, these unanswered questions. It is

remarkable, five days before we go to the polls, we simply don't know

the answer to four -- five fundamental questions on jobs,

currency, prices, we just don't know. If you lose this vote, 2015

might be the last time ever that a Labour government can be elected in

London. There have been moves to delay that election until after the

negotiations have been completed. What is your view on that? There are

a lot of people watching this programme who don't live in Scotland

who would like to get rid of the present government, so the general

election will go ahead next May. We are jumping the gun here, rather

like Alex Salmond was in his interview earlier on. People in

Scotland have yet to cast their votes. I think we will win on

Thursday. Why? Because the momentum seems to be on the other side at the

moment. You can take the polls with a pinch of salt, and now they

suggest it may be swinging back, but I think this will go to the wire,

but I think we will win because Scotland will not be bullied into

accepting something it doesn't want. When you talk about Alex and

talking, it is almost a contest between us and the rest of the UK.

If you win this time around by 10,000 votes or 1%, this will come

back. Scotland is on a process that started in 1979 and will move on to

full independence, sooner or later, surely? I don't accept that. While

nationalism ebbs and flows, the majority of Scottish people are

fiercely proud of their country and what it can achieve. It suits us to

work with our next-door neighbours rather than to turn them into

competitors. I don't accept that. The 1.I do agree with Alex Salmond

is that on Thursday we have got to decide this for a generation. I

don't think anybody wants to go through another 2.5 year referendum.

79 was a referendum, no parliament at all, 97 parliament with tax

varying powers I should say, since then the parliament has achieved

more powers, and it seems to be a process. But there is a world of

difference between a Scottish parliament within the UK in which we

are all equal partners and making a complete break, where you turn the

rest of the UK into people living in foreign countries. There is a world

of difference between the two. If we did that, the differences that would

develop would be the same as between France and Germany and I don't think

anybody wants that. We can be proud of what we do in the future and we

can do that best by remaining as part of the UK with our friends,

relations and next-door neighbours. It has been a lively campaign, but

writing in the Sunday Times you said it has also been a slightly menacing

campaign. Have you felt menaced? Yes, I have been involved in

campaigning for about 35 years and I have never seen anything like this

before. Normally people can stand on street stalls and people can talk to

each other. I have often been shouted at for simply just being

there. I chose to take part in this campaign but I think the majority of

people, the quiet majority, are not prepared to be bullied into

accepting there is only one side here. Both of us should be entitled

to set out our views with passion and vigour, but... There are over

excitable people on both sides of the argument. Are you saying this is

coming from the yes campaign? There have been incidents on both sides

but I have been very clear, anybody who steps over the line has to be

dealt with immediately because in the last five days of this campaign,

Scotland deserves... Are you saying the other lot don't? Things have

been said on the Internet, things have been happening on the street

and so on and we don't want that. What I would like to do in the next

five days is concentrate increasingly on the choice we now

have. We have the opportunity to have a strong Scottish parliament

and look after our health service. You can make Scotland stronger by

walking out with all of the risks and the damage that will be done,

and not just for my generation but the one that comes after. I must ask

you about the overnight news of David Haines and your reaction to

that. It is terrible, he was simply trying to help people in dreadful

conditions and it is simply inexcusable. It is a barbaric act. I

think it will strengthen the resolve of the international community but

today our thoughts must be with David Haines' family. Alistair

Darling, thank you. We will hear from you and Alex Salmond at the end

of the programme but now the news headlines.

The Prime Minister has condemned the murder of the British aid worker

David Haines as an act of pure evil. A video which apparently shows

him being beheaded was released online by Islamic militants. David

Cameron has vowed to do everything possible to hunt down his killers.

The video also includes a threat to kill a second British hostage.

A number of new opinion polls suggest the Scottish referendum

contest is still too close to call. Alex Salmond told this programme

that he is already assembling a team of specialist negotiators to begin

work immediately on a separation agreement with the rest of the UK in

the event of a yes vote. Alistair Darling insisted that

Scotland could achieve greater devolution within the UK and that

independence would lead to years of uncertainty and risk. That is all

from me for now. Back to Andrew in a moment but first let's look at what

is coming up after this programme. We will have the latest reaction to

the beheading of a British aid worker. After the Oscar Pistorius

case, is it time to televised trials here? Are overweight people

discriminated against? Join us at ten.

You may have watched the television debate but that is the only time you

will have seen these two together during the campaign, but now they

are alongside each other in the studio. You may have served -- just

heard what Alistair Darling said about the menacing side of the

campaign. Have you seen or heard anything you have flinched at? There

have been incidents involving myself, and prosecutions. There are

idiots on both sides, a microcosm, a tiny percentage. The majority of

people have been engaging in the most invigorating, enjoyable

debate. I have seen nothing like this in recent generations. This is

a wonderful, enjoyable experience. At least Scotland must have the most

educated? It has energised people, you cannot go anywhere without

talking about it. Everyone in every part of Scotland, at home, outside,

it has been energising. You have had the occasional passage of arms

between you, how do you regard each other now?

First rate politician and welcome to be a member of Team Scotland on

Friday. Teamwork doesn't always sits naturally with you, but of course we

always have high regard for each other. We will always get on, I'm

sure. That is nearly all the -- we have time for this morning.

Next Sunday, it'll all be over - or just beginning - and we'll be

digesting the outcome of the referendum, whatever it is, with

the Labour leader Ed Miliband at his party conference in Birmingham.

But just before we go, Faish Ross is a youth arts organisation

which encourages young people to get involved in traditional

Fresh from its annual Ceilidh Trail, we're joined by Chris, Ossian, Ross,

Annie and Megan to play us out with their version of the Birkin Tree.

# O lass, gin ye wud think it right tae gang wi' me this very night

# An' cuddle tae the mornin' light by a' th' lave unseen-o?

# An' ye will be my dearie, my ain my dearest dearie.

# An ye will be my dearie, gin ye meet me at e'en-o.

# O he's gane tae yon birken tree in hopes his ane true love tae see

# When fa' come trippin' o'er the lee, but just his bonnie Jean-o

# An' she's clinkit doon beside him, beside him, beside him

# She's clinkit doon beside him, amangst the grass sae green-o

# I'm overjoyed wi' rapture noo, quo' he an' preed his cherry mou

# An' Jeannie n'er had cause to rue that night all on the green-o

# For she has got her Johnny, her ane, her dearest Johnny

# For she has got her Johnny, an' Johnny's got his Jean-o. #