07/09/2014 The Andrew Marr Show

It is great to be back after the long, hot, gusty summer and we are

looking at the political year just starting unlike any other in my

lifetime, Scotland voting on whether to leave the United Kingdom, and

incredibly closely fought general election, if the polls are right,

which may turn leaders towards another referendum, this time for

all of us, on leaving the European Union. And what do we need in these

turbulent times? And civil questions and clear answers. In the spirit of

optimism, keep watching. Joining me today for the review of the Sunday

newspapers: Now chairing their own show here in London, and postman,

top politician and is now award-winning writer, Alan Johnson.

The biggest story of the day, the first major poll, showing that the

guests to independence campaign in Scotland is pulling ahead.

Potentially a huge crisis for the British state. The biggest card

played by the Unionist side has been the threat that an independent

Scotland could not keep the pound. Has that horribly backfired? The man

who made the threat, the Chancellor, George Osborne, joined me today. We

will also be speaking about the cost of taking the war to the so-called

Islamic State, a conflict which could last three years or more. But

we are not just hearing conservative views, on the other side of the

fence, the trade union Congress meeting in Liverpool, general

secretary Frances O'Grady will be talking with us about poverty wages

and what she regards as the unfair, unbalanced recovery. Finally, the

great writer, Ian McEwan, author of novels such as Atonement and in

during Love, one of the most acute chroniclers of modern life and its

discontents. He has a new book out which feels eerily current,

examining what happens when the state steps into the life of a

child. He will be here to talk about the children act. -- Enduring Love.

Supporters of Scottish independence, claim they have the momentum,

with less than two weeks to go before the referendum.

A poll by YouGov for The Sunday Times suggests that a

narrow majority of Scottish voters is now in favour of leaving the UK.

It is the first time a mainstream poll has put the Yes campaign

ahead although the figures don't include undecided voters.

Another poll gives the No campaign a narrow lead.

Our Scotland Correspondent, James Cook, reports.

Campaigners for the Yes campaign, enjoying their moment in the sun,

mocking their rivals, for decades, Scottish Independent had a majority

following, but now its supporters say they are on a roll, dancing

towards victory. The problem with the Yes campaign. -- the beauty of

the Yes campaign is that it has an impetus of its own. It is grassroot,

different groups in every single sector of society, campaigning for a

yes vote. It is a momentum which I think is unstoppable. There is some

evidence of momentum, a poll by you go, for the Sunday Times, suggests a

yes vote by the narrowest of margins, if the 1% of 49, when don't

know is excluded. It is the first poll of this kind to predict the

break-up. -- YouGov. If it was just the 1 poll, perhaps that would be

all that it caused. In fact, the underlying trend is the same as in

other recent surveys. Movement towards a yes vote. Opponents of

independence say that the game is not over until the final whistle,

they have been parading their signings, 18 big names in Scottish

football who are supporting a no vote, and even senior figures in the

campaign admit that these are nervous moment. -- moments. We are

in the exciting part of the campaign, it is squeaky bum time. As

they say in football. We will give it our all in the next few days, to

make sure we showed that this is the best thing for the people of

Scotland. The vote is only 11 days away, both sides agree on this, the

race is tight and the stakes could hardly be higher.

Renewed fighting in eastern Ukraine has called into question

Separatist rebels, backed by Russia, seem to have resumed their

battle to drive Ukrainian troops out of the port city of Mariupol.

It's not clear whether the shelling is a temporary

break in the truce, or indicates the end of the peace plan.

Detectives investigating the disappearance of schoolgirl Alice

Gross have arrested a 25 year-old man on suspicion of murder.

from her west London home 10 days ago.

The arrest follows information detectives received on Saturday.

Police say all lines of enquiry are still open.

MPs should get a 9% pay rise next year as planned, the body overseeing

their salaries and expenses has said.

Standards Authority wants to push ahead with plans to increase

salaries to ?74,000 a year despite opposition from David

Cameron. The new chief executive of the authority says failure to pay a

"fair" rate will make it harder to attract good candidates for

The squeeze on pay elsewhere in the public sector is expected to

dominate the Trades Union Congress which starts this afternoon

Hundreds of thousands of health workers are being balloted

Delegates from more than 50 unions will also hear calls to

oppose Conservative plans, for further curbs on industrial action.

That is all from me for now, I will be back with the headlines just

before 9:30am. There's no doubt that economic

recovery is underway. But beyond homeowners in London

and the southeast, are the benefits How do things look from Liverpool,

where the annual Trade Union Congress is taken place this week,

kicking off the Conference season? I'm joined by the TUC leader,

Frances O'Grady. Welcome. Good morning. The big news is going

to be further strikes in support of higher pay, particularly in the

public sector. The big thing for the TUC this year, Britain needs a pay

rise, that is because we have seen workers not sharing in the benefits

of economic recovery and taking real pay cuts in private and public

sector, year-on-year out. I think there are three things that

delegates here wants to hear from the Chancellor: why can't we have a

higher minimum wage? What is the government doing to spread the

living wage? Why did he reject that recommendation of the independent

pay review body for health workers, nurses and midwives, for a 1%

increase, and tell them they would get nothing? What can the TUC do

about this? Are we going to see industrial action late in the year?

I think we will see a mix of industrial action and protests,

clearly some ballots are still happening and we will have to see

the results of those. We have a big demonstration on October 18, Britain

needs a pay rise. That will be a rallying point for those workers who

take strike action, and everyone else who supports them. Not everyone

is not going to have a pay rise, some people are getting a 10% pay

rise. What message do you think that sense? Difficult question for you.

Of course they should get a fair pay rise as well but I think that this

will confirm the sense that we are led by a Conservative government

that is so out of touch with how insulted ordinary people feel, who

are just not seeing the benefits of the economic recovery that the

Chancellor keeps telling us about. They are not feeling it in pay

packets. What about the story in the Sunday Times, that one union is

going to have hit squads going around to the houses of the owners

of companies they are targeting, and indeed politicians like Boris

Johnson, confronting them directly? Is it the kind of thing you feel

comfortable with? This is a very old story about protest against

blacklisting on Crossrail. The union has been very clear, that it would

only engage in lawful protests. We do have a right to demonstrate in

this country. As long as we abide by the law, as long as the police, who

were there at the time, do not see any problems. -- who are there at

the time. I think people should be very careful about buying fast and

loose with Civil Liberties. Including outside peoples homes? The

test here is whether it is a lawful protest, and of course, the police

are in attendance to judge just that. Let's be clear, this was about

construction workers standing up for their fellow workers on key issues

like health and safety, losing their livelihoods as a result of a company

blacklist. That was the cause of the problem, and now, that has been

resolved. Looks very sunny in Liverpool, have a good week and

thank you for joining us. It certainly is sunny. Scotland

dominating the front pages of the serious newspapers. Here we

new talks on the future of the United Kingdom, I shall be talking

with the Chancellor, George Osborne, about that. And the Independent,

Scotland, "independence crisis". Sunday Telegraph leads on MPs to get

a 10% pay increase. Christiane Amanpour And Alan Johnson, take us

away. People will have been shocked by this, there is a pro-majority for

the Scottish, and existing shall threat but also around the world,

because here we have, all outputs of Isis jihadi. -- all out blitz on

Isis jihadis. I never thought that this vote was in the bag, and so

what this does for me, it makes me want to go and campaign in Scotland

and bring people up and say, look, Scotland as a nation is crucial to

us and the United Kingdom, it is crucial to everything in my history.

Whether it is the TUC, whether it is the Labour Party... But it is not

about self-interest, otherwise David Cameron would be campaigning for a

yes vote! Look at the great institutions: The Post Office, the

BBC, the National Health Service. It is all about Scotland as a nation

being in a wider community. I loved Will Hutton's phrase. As a famous

American wallet -ish and said, sometimes you campaign in poetry and

govern in prose. "2 countries on the same small island that have so much

in common, if Britain cannot find a way of sticking together, it is the

death of the liberal enlightenment before the atavistic forces of

nationalism and ethnicity. He says it is a dark omen for the

21st-century." A lot of Scottish people say all they want is a left

of centre country, protecting the welfare state and the health service

and they say they can no longer get that through Westminster. The fact

that we have Westminster in power, we have evolved so much to Scotland.

That is the issue, you could some of this campaign by saying the Yes

campaign are saying vote yes and nothing will change where is the No

campaign says vote no and everything will change. We have never put texts

to that, we have never said what would change if they vote no. From

an outsider 's point of view, looking as a foreign correspondence

in, one question would be, has the Better Together campaign lacked

imagination, as the newspapers have been arguing? Is there not been

quite enough said about all of the virtues of staying within the union?

This business about Ed Miliband, your party leader, saying there will

be troops on the border if it comes to that, is that the case? Is

campaigning is Scotland and campaigning for a no vote, and

saying that the progressive future of this country depends upon our

staying together. -- he is campaigning in Scotland. The way

that you vote in this referendum is not like a general election, it is

not, vote for one party now and you can reverse it in four or five

years. The comment about the board is just saying, look... There could

be two different immigration policies. Ed is saying, take

Scotland as part of the United Kingdom, he's putting his energy

into that. But questions are raised as to what would happen. Labour are

disputing the way the story has been put forward. Take us on to the next

existential threat, Isis. This is a huge issue, as world leaders have

finally woken up to it, obviously very emotional and appalling

decapitation videos of our colleagues, they have spurred

international opinion. When you look now, you see poll saying that a

majority would favour action. Astonishing turnaround. Because of

some of these videos, but also because Isis, Isil, they have been

able to claim a state. Is the first time a terrorist organisation has a

state across a border, Syria and Iraq. Al-Qaeda never had that. These

people are closer to us. For a long time, the international community,

MI6, they have been talking about blowback, but now it is happening. I

have spoken with the Iraqi president, he said they need our

help, the consent is moving towards a coalition in NATO, and it may not

just be a rack, it may be Syria as well, it is that is where Isis has

its headquarters. -- just be Iraq. We are in effect at war, aren't we?

Many of the people who went to fight in Syria were being encouraged. I

have got no doubt that some of them are out there feeling very

uncomfortable. If you get these people back and they are converted,

they become very important advocates, just as other

organisations have been. The 500 Brits who have gone over, hundreds

of Americans, many Belgians, and they are saying, actually, we do

need their intelligence. I think this wouldn't have happened if the

international community had intervened in Syria much earlier. It

meant supporting the muddy -- moderate Free Syrian Army. This

could have been done three years ago and it would have been much easier

than it is now. Can I ask, this notion of taking away passports,

stripping them of British citizenship, do you think that is

legally possible? I think there is a way to do it. You can remove their

passport, and if they have dual nationality you can remove their

British nationality. The question is if you are making their nationality

and making them stateless. You cannot rush into it. The newspaper

headlines demand an immediate response and then later, when things

go wrong, they say they acted too quickly. Let's move on to the

immigration story, I think it will be big in the papers again this

week. That is Alan's story, isn't it? The major thrust of this is that

we could do more to help the authorities in Calais. David

Blunkett did a deal to close down sign out, what was happening there

was that we moved our border from Dover across to France. There is a

slight link, in that we have chosen not to sign up to the Schengen

Agreement. They are not just trying to find a way to come to Germany, it

is the UK as well. But it is a completely open French German

border. We mentioned France, which takes us onto Francois Hollande, who

has been having some nightmare weeks. Ridge about, his polls are in

freefall. -- pretty bad. This woman has laid bare the presidency and

crossed social norms, but beyond that he has also been forced to do

what the international community has asked him to do, regarding Russia,

and he has... There is no way of getting rid of him unless he chooses

suddenly to go. He is safe so in fact he will stay there until 2017.

Marvellous. The cheerful stories around the world would include a

bowler. -- Ebola. I have been covering that story a lot. Sierra

Leone, which the British famously stabilised after its terrible civil

war a few years ago, things have been going better for Sierra Leone,

but it is one of the worst hit in the crisis and in the next couple of

weeks they are going to lock down the entire country for four days to

try to stop the spread. This is a catastrophic failure of the

international community. The WHO has been criticised for being too slow.

You have a theme here this morning! It is true! I spoke to the

discoverers of this virus, they say this is not something that needs to

be this kind of crisis, it can be fairly easily contained and that

kind of help should have been provided earlier. There has been a

lot of coverage about Conservatives and Europe, we are still waiting for

the by-election. What is going on? There was an extraordinary vote on

the Private members Bill on Friday on the bedroom tax, probably the

most vicious piece of legislation I have ever seen, became the subject

of a big vote. Only one third of Scottish nationalists turned up to

vote incidentally. That aside, 70 Tory MPs refused to come in on the

three line whip, which is extraordinary. This piece in the

Mail on Sunday, with Jacob Rees-Mogg, talk about damned with

faint praise, in many ways it has been successful he says. It is fun

to watch because this is an inverted version of what happened to Labour

in the 80s. He once Nigel Farage to be the Deputy Prime Minister. For

goodness sake! Marine Le Pen did well in the European elections but

do you think this is a starter? Is it possible here in England? This is

a 90 minute on the right. You have the Conservative Party and the

Conservative Party circa 1980. In Scotland there is a generalised

revolt against politics, isn't there? I think that is true, and

there are many other countries under the world with a whole series of

issues under that, but in terms of thinking UKIP are the answer to this

when they are so obviously a version of conservatism that many

Conservatives find attractive, but for us on the left... Turning to

another story of meltdown, the US open. I am a major tennis fan and I

watch this and I love it. It was a bloodbath yesterday at the

semifinals. The number one seed and the number two seed... I've don't

think they have the sports page here but Novak Djokovic and Roger Federer

were wiped out of the US Open finals and they were saying it is a seismic

shift. We have a Japanese for the first time who has made it so far in

a grand slam tournaments, and Marin Cilic. Alan, you have a new book

out, you did very well with your first book which was easy to read

and enjoyable. The second book is about your early years as a postman,

a social history. Again and again you had male authority figures who

fought in the war and they kind of pinned the union together and the

postal service together. Those people now are by and large gum. It

is very interesting that what you regard as your youth is regarded as

others to be social history! When I started work, virtually all of these

guys had had some experience. They were coming into their 40s, they had

fought in the war and had these terrible traumas and adventures when

they were teenagers. They were sitting in the canteen together

depending on what regiment they were in. And a lot of the discipline of

the trade unions came from those people who had the discipline of the

trenches. Exactly. Irrespective of their political views. When we were

on a seven-week all-out strike in the post office, the guy running

back and forward was an ex-serviceman, and he was applauding

Dickie Lawler. I said, I thought ex-servicemen... He said, we are

going to fight here and we have got to win it. Almost everything they

looked at was in that context, but what a generation. Their parents had

been through the First World War. It had dominated their whole lives and

they came out of that. It has been very well received. Is there going

to be a further sequel? Are we therefore seeing arrival of Alan

Johnson the writer and disappearance of the politician? No, I am going to

dedicate my time to Hull as a backbench MP. In my spare time I

will do some writing. If I ever become as good as you... So sweet! I

hate to interrupt this lovefest! The weather has been pretty fine and dry

for much of lately, I'm not sure if that qualifies yet as an Indian

summer, let's find out from Chris. If the warmth lasts, we will have a

think of that. In the south, some mist and fog patches to start the

day. That cloud will tend to thin and break up throughout the day. In

Scotland there is an area of low pressure, bringing a cool breeze and

temperatures suppressed at just 12 or 13 degrees. Looking at the

weather for the night-time, rain will become increasingly showery

across north-east Scotland. Clear skies elsewhere, temperatures in the

towns and cities not especially low but in the countryside it is a

different story. We could get a touch of grass frost in places. A

cold start to Monday, but with high pressure with us it will be another

fine and dry day. Similar temperatures with quite a bit of

cloud for the north of Scotland, it will remain on the cool side here.

The high pressure will stay with us for much of the weekend but the

amount of cloud we see day by day will vary.

Ian McEwan has been at the forefront of modern British fiction, some of

his most popular work include books like Enduring Love and Atonement.

His latest book, The Children Act, is gripping and highly topical with

so much in the news recently about the treatment of young people. Very

often I find in your books that you are choosing people who you move

around with socially as your central characters, they are novels about

the establishment innocents? These are people that work, I love people

's expertise so I sat for a long time with a neurosurgeon, I spent

time with physicists, I like people 's work. This granular nature of

what they do. Yes, and the new vocabularies you discover. And of

course the children's courts have now been opened to the press but you

went through the judgements and they are almost like novels in their own

right? They can be like short novels, at their best. Some of them

have great compassion, rationality... If only they were all

like that. You have chosen, central to it, a Jehovah's Witness family

and a blood transfusion argument. You make the boy who doesn't want

the blood transfusion very charismatic, but beyond that some

people would say this is an easy target, an extremist religious

position which well-meaning agnostics find very easy to attack.

It is not really a target. It is a story which repeats itself

constantly in the courts now, especially in the family division,

where the secular imagination of the court runs up against sincerely held

religious belief. The judges are not wanting to make this decision but

they are forced to make the decision as judicial reasonable parents and

generally they come out on the side of what is rational and

compassionate rather than what is theologically correct. But it is an

interesting divide. I'm not targeting Jehovah's Witnesses.

The act itself is humane, it is brilliant, but between the writing

of it and its enactment, there is a very big shadow. With Rotherham, we

must feel we have hugely systematically lets down children.

It also cuts the other way, families, often poor families, find

that overweening local authorities snatch away their children, bring in

experts to give good reason to judges, parents themselves cannot

call on experts, they are not allowed. Strangely, that is against

the spirit of the law! It is the enactment of this that we have got

to attend to. Finally, this is a rooted official book, short novel

rather than a novella 60,000 words... I find that entirely

entrancing. Convenient! But it is not being listed for the big

literary prizes, is that because literary prizes judges now want a

big fat blockbuster? Time to campaign about the Booker prize is

when you are on the list, not when you are not on it! -- the time to

complain. In terms of the condition of fiction, we are seeing a revival

of books about current life. Lonely figure at times when you write about

Iraq war and the protests against it but now we are seen more books

dealing with the here and now, and the conditions of being alive in the

21st-century. It is one of the duties of the novelist to take the

pulse of the times, conditions of modernity, of cities, what it is to

be at the beginning of the 21st-century, dark and turbulent

time. I cannot remember a darker new cycle in summer. Ghastly, terrible.

It has been difficult. We do not know where it is heading. Novelists

do well to try to take the temperature of that. Do you know

where you are heading? Have you got another book on the go? If I knew I

would not tell you but I do not, I am in that mulching phase... It is

wonderful! I'm very good at not writing, I can sit around reading

and talking and travelling. I will allow you to go away and mulch away

from the camera! The Scottish yes campaign now ahead?

Meltdown for the UK? A European crisis for the Tory

party, and the small matter of making war on the Islamic state,

with the costs of that. I'm joined by the Chancellor

George Osborne, and I think it's possible we'll find

something to talk about. You were the architects, partly, of

the strategy of saying that you cannot have the pound sterling for

the Scots, but that has horribly backfired. I do not accept that

assessment, this country faces a big choice.

Scotland faces a big choice. If people were in any doubt that they

can stay at home, that they do not need to vote no at the polls, they

will no longer be in any doubt. They should not be in any doubt about the

consequences of the decision, one of which was that Scotland would not be

sharing the pound as an independent country with the rest of the United

Kingdom if the separatists win the vote. People in Scotland do not

believe that, they think if there is a yes vote, there is going to be

sensible negotiations, that you will sit down with Alex Salmond and you

will discuss the future fiscal and financial arrangements and because

sharing the pound is good for British industry, south and north of

the border, and is common sense, eventually, that will happen. That

is just not true. The truth is that sharing the pound would not be good

for Scotland, it would not be good for the rest of the United Kingdom.

We share it now. We are part of one country with one central bank and

one integrated and United economy. If you vote no, if you vote to leave

the United Kingdom, you are leaving those arrangements. It is a bit like

a couple getting divorced and yet saying that you will keep the joint

mortgage and the current accounts... That is not what happens in divorce

and in separation. It brings us back to this point: This is a very big

decision for Scotland. The people of Scotland need to be in possession of

all of the facts. On the currency, you have personalised it to me, and

as Chancellor I have been straight with people about the choices they

face. What I have said has been echoed by the Labour Party, by

economists, by central bankers... This is the view of many people,

that a currency union is not going to happen, and it will not happen.

If Alex Salmond wins the vote and comes to you and says, we should

talk, you will say, no talk, no discussion? Every possible

combination of government at Westminster that you can imagine has

made it clear that there is not going to be a currency union, it is

really for Alex Salmond in the next ten days to explain what currency

Scotland would use if separated from the rest of the United Kingdom. He

says that the pound belongs to us as much as George Osborne or anyone

else in England, it is a joint currency, we have joint

arrangements, there is no reason why we would not continue with this, we

could have a voice at the Bank of England. He says that will keep

business and prosperity flowing across-the-board which is what

everyone wants. It is not a common-sense arrangement, it would

not be good for the people of Scotland, they would have voted to

be independent, voted to separate the rest of the UK. Putting all of

the economic decisions in the hands of their neighbouring country. It

would not be good for the rest of the UK because we would be standing

behind, for example, the banks and the financial system and the economy

of another country. We did not join the euro because we did not want to

be part of these currency arrangements. Alex Salmond is not

really telling people the straight truth about what currency Scotland

will be using if Scotland separates from the rest of the UK. He has

conceded... The very fact that he says, "look, I accept there is plan

A, that is not going to work, there is three plan Bs..." That is someone

who does not have a plan. There are fundamental issues, if Scotland were

two separate, but that is a pretty fundamental one! What is going to be

the nuts that but my wallet or purse! The coins in my pocket! If

this country is independent or separate from the rest of the UK,

what will they be? This is not simply peak from Westminster, that

we are going to punish them. That is what it sounds like. I am an

Englishman, I want Scotland to stay in the United Kingdom. I think the

arrangement we have at the moment works well but can be improved upon.

-- pique. The arrangement with the pound sterling works well, we have

arrangements that can work, and I am the one, and Labour politicians, and

independent columnists, they are all of the people say it is not going to

work if you think can share the pound after separation. No ifs and

no buts, with independence, no pound sterling. We will not share the

pound if Scotland separates from the rest of the UK. Moving onto another

story related to that, the suggestion there is going to be

all-party talks if there is no vote. On new arrangements Scotland,

further devolution, fiscal devolution. Subtly different views

from subtly different parties, on what would happen with de novo. Will

be such a proposal on the table before the referendum takes place at

Orange from the decisions that affect Scotland, that has been clear

from both sides of this debate in Scotland, and we have proposed to

deliver on that. In the next few days you will see a plan of action

to give more powers to Scotland, more tax powers, more spending

powers, more plans and powers over the welfare state. That is going to

be put into effect, the timetable for delivering that will be put into

effect the moment there is a no vote in the referendum, a clock will be

taking, for delivering those powers. Then Scotland will have the best of

both worlds, it will avoid the risk of separation but they will have

more control over their own destiny, that is where many Scots want to be.

Has this been agreed by all of the main Westminster parties? We have

been discussing with the Liberal Democrats with the other parties,

with the Labour Party, we are working on that plan of action.

People should know that if they vote no, they are voting for and more

devolution, more powers to Scotland, without the risks of separation.

Tax-raising powers? Going as far as fiscal autonomy? Much greater fiscal

autonomy, who will wait for the proposal, but much greater power to

control tax rates, more control over public expenditure and welfare

rights. A host of other changes, all of which I think satisfy a Scottish

demand that decisions that affect Scotland are taken in Scotland

without the risks of separation. I think that is the best of both

worlds. Alex Salmond scored a blow when he attacked Alistair Darling

for the lack of job-creating powers for the Scottish Parliament, will

that also be discuss? Things like tax rate certainly have an effect on

attracting jobs. The economy is growing, I would like to see it grow

further, I want to see that the Scottish people make their own

decisions. If after all of this, is there going to be a yes vote, is

there going to be major resignations? This is not about

individuals, it is important we confront this. People need to know

that when they vote they are not voting about a single politician or

policy, this is not a protest vote, this is a once-in-a-lifetime vote,

this is not about the next five-year is, we are talking about the next

300 years. Could not be a bigger decision. -- this is not about the

next five-years. We want Scotland to stay. Many people feel that this

would be such a big moment that it will destroy the UK Government as

well. We are campaigning for a no vote, I do believe that we will see

a no vote. This is not about the future of the British government in

Westminster, it is not about me, David Cameron... People need to

understand. This is not a protest vote, Alex Salmond does not want to

talk about the big economic questions, you want to turn this

into a protest vote about Westminster. It is not that, it is a

Juan Zuniga lifetime vote about the future of Scotland. It would be a

huge triumph for Alex Salmond if he can pull this off, he has always

said he can do it, a lot of people in Westminster have been sceptical.

Part of the reason is that the prounion campaign has been negative,

has been so much energy and enthusiasm on the yes side, mainly

because they want a slightly more socially just Scotland than they can

get at the moment. I dispute that, because I see in the better together

campaign a very positive vision of Scotland within the United Kingdom,

getting the best of both words. -- world's. I think that people

understand, perhaps these opinion polls will focus peoples attention

on the real choice they have got to make on the 18th. -- Better

Together. If you vote yes, you are voting to separate Scotland from the

rest the United Kingdom, the way to keep Scotland in the United Kingdom

with more powers for Scotland is to vote no. This is an existential

threats to the British state, as we talked about earlier, the other one,

Isis, we have heard a big NATO summit in Wales, as a result are we

in effect at war with Islamic State? Could this go on, as macro barracks

has said, more than three years into the future? -- Barack Obama. We have

got to defeat this terrorist organisation, it is a direct threat

to the security people living in Britain as well as an enormous

threat instability to people living in the West. There are already air

strikes. That is a locally led operation by the Iraqi people, by

other countries in the neighbourhoods. This is very

different from ten years or so ago, with the Iraq war. By Western

invasion. This is an operation by the Iraqi government, which by the

way needs to be more representative. It is in operation from people in

the Middle East to destroy this threat, which we will assist in any

way that we can. And in a way that helps them with their calls. And it

could involve military assistance from the air? Air strikes, which

would not need Parliament to be recalled? On the question of air

strikes, we are not yet at that stage, we have not ruled things out

but we are not at that stage today. We need to work out what we can do

as a country to best help defeat this threats to our security and to

the security of the world. We are already supporting the Kurdish

people in their struggle against these barbaric terrorists. Come on

the role of Parliament, what's David Cameron has said, and I'm a member

of Parliament myself, and what I think is the correct position, is

this: If there needs to be an immediate emergency operation,

because there is an immediate crisis on the ground, humanitarian crisis,

and it is not possible to go to Parliament, the government reserves

the right to take action. That has been the position of previous

governments. Any longer campaign, anything that requires a sustained

effort, of course we will go to Parliament and of course we will go

to Parliament after taking any action if it had to be done in a

matter of hours. Given what we have seen over the last few weeks, can

there be compromise, and there be any kind of deal, anything short of

total victory when it comes to Islamic State? Does not look like

you can deal with people who are so barbaric that they rates women, that

they chop off the heads of the people they capture... -- that they

section women. -- sexually assault winning. -- women.

Next year we will be spending below the 2% NATO figure, surely that has

to be revised upwards and quickly? I don't accept that assessment. I

think we continue to meet the 2% NATO commitment, but the big point

is that Britain will always put its national security first. As

Chancellor I will always do that and I would argue that economic security

is the flip side the coin for the security. If you don't have order in

your public finances, stability in your financial system, you cannot

properly defend yourself. Because we have a long-term economic plan,

because we are putting the country on to a more secure footing, we can

afford what it takes to defeat threats to our security. One of your

important jobs from time to time is to make a strategic change of

direction, is this time to put more money into defences? We still run

one of the largest defence budgets in the world, we have invested a

huge amount in new equipment, the latest fighter jets today. According

to the Sunday Times the entire army could be fitted into the Wembley

stadium. We have one of the most deployable armies in the world and

there will be a second major aircraft carrier for the Royal

Navy, our soldiers will have the latest new vehicles, our air force

will continue to have investment. Of course, when we get to a big defence

review next year, we will have to make judgements about the country's

future but you are not in a position to make those decisions if your

economy is falling apart, you don't have an economic plan... But

whatever happens to the rest of the public finances, we will not fall

below the 2% NATO requirement in the future? We have committed to it and

we are meeting the 2% requirement. I thought for the next financial year

we were down to 1.8%. I don't accept that. We are meeting the requirement

and will continue to do that. If Scotland voted yes, is there the

money to relocate the entire Trident fleet somewhere in England? I don't

want to get into what happens in the terrible situation where Scotland

decides it wants to separate from the rest of the UK. There will be

plenty of disruption if that happens and I don't think it will be good

for the UK or Scotland. Another crisis at home precipitated by the

by-election and it has been suggested that you should bring

Nigel Farage in with a parked. I don't agree with that, there will be

no pact. The way to deliver what we need is to have a Conservative

government. I think we have really clear choice in the general

election. As this election starts to loom, people can see a big choice. I

have an advantage over you which is that you have a biographer and this

says that your position on Europe has hardened and you know longer

think the British axis would be unthinkable. You are thinking about

that, for large economy, it is becoming harder and harder because

the big decisions are taken by the Eurozone countries and not by us

which is making you think an exit is not impossible. The first part of

what you said is an accurate representation of what I think.

Britain faces a challenge with an organisation where a lot of

decisions are being centralised in the Eurozone. That's why I want to

change our relationship with the European Union. We want to

renegotiate our membership so that Britain gets a fair say and

crucially that the whole of Europe grows and creates jobs. While we are

having this conversation about the future of Britain's relationship

with Europe, currently on the continent of Europe people are out

of work, even the German economy is shrinking. That is what Europe needs

to do collectively, change the way the European Union operates but the

only way you can have that is by having a Conservative government.

The only way you can have that is if the European Union think it is a

possibility to leave Britain out of the negotiations if they fail. Boris

has said Britain could thrive outside of the EU, do you agree? I

want it to thrive inside, but it would have to be reformed. What I am

campaigning for his fourth Briton to be in a changed European Union that

sort of the EU, do you agree? I want it to thrive inside, but it would

have to be reformed. What I am campaigning for his fourth Briton to

be in a changed European Union that satisfies the wishes of the British

people. If you don't get that renegotiation, could we thrive

outside? I don't expect us to fail. The Polish Prime Minister said, I

have got three priorities, and one of those is making sure he deals

with Britain's concerns. That is an example of how David Cameron has put

these concerns at the heart of the European agenda. Would you have

liked to see Boris Johnson take on Mr Carswell in the by-election? No,

I think it is great he is returning, he is an incredible asset

to our party. When you are going to fight in a general election, in a

cup final you want your best team on the pitch. I have just been working

with him this weekend on making sure we freeze rail fares so that they

only go up with inflation. That is coming into effect from the middle

of January and it is a great example of how, if you take difficult

economic decisions, you can help taxpayers. The Foreign Secretary

sitting there a couple of weeks ago, said given our relationship with the

EU now, if there was no change, he would come out. We are going to

reform our European Union, and you are going to get that with a

Conservative government. There has been a lot of criticism about the

MPs' 10% pay rise, what is your view on that? I find myself in rare

agreement with Francis. I don't think it is a good time that MPs

would received such a big increase, but there will be a report after the

election that is when we will have to tackle this issue. We have a

recovery going on but for many it is a grim recovery, their wages are not

rising. What can you to answer Frances O'Grady's points? The people

in a country are only as rich as the country and if your economy is

shrinking and failing, people get poorer, and as your economy starts

to grow, the people in that country star to get richer. You say no one

is benefiting from the recession, indeed you started the programme by

saying unless you own a house in London and so on, but there are 1.8

million people in jobs who didn't have those jobs beforehand. That is

real economic security for families, real progress in our economic

situation. For now, thank you. Now over to Riz

for the news headlines. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has

repeated his warning that no MP in London would agree to sharing the

pound if there is a yes vote in the Scottish referendum. Renewed

fighting in eastern Ukraine has called into question the cease-fire

agreed on Friday. Separatist rebels backed by Russia seem to have

resumed their battle to drive Ukrainian troops out of Mariupol. It

is not clear whether the shelling is a temporary break in the truce or

indicate the end of a peace plan. That is all from me. The next news

is at midday. The Chancellor is still with me, as is Alan Johnson.

Alan was talking about the problems over passports for returning

jihadist. What is the latest legal advice you are getting about whether

it is possible to strip people who don't have joint citizenship of

British citizenship in these circumstances? The legal advice is

that this is doable. We need to plug the hole in our armoury. There are

chinks in it, one of them is these chinks, people who say they want to

do harm to us and have a British passport. The legal advice I have

received is that it is doable. Defeat over bedroom tax was a big

deal for the Coalition, wasn't it? I don't think it is right for Britain

to spend more on welfare, I would rather spend on our infrastructure

and lowering taxes so this is one of the issues where we probably won't

agree. The question is whether the Coalition is over the bedroom tax is

over. The Coalition will be over when there is a general election,

then there will be a clear choice, people will focus on whether they

want a majority Labour or Conservative government. I think

that will be the choice and I am confident we can win that. Do either

of you think that with a yes vote in Scotland a Parliamentary election

could be delayed? I don't want to speculate on the outcome of a yes

vote. That doesn't mean I agree with the premise of your question at

all, but if you get into the consequences you are just reminded

of how big a decision Mrs. Our message to Scottish people is that

we want you to stay. We are on the same side with that, and also with

the saying no to a 10% pay rise for MPs. There is the beginnings of

soft, gentle rapprochement like two spiny and each is trying to make

love! It was a Lib Dem who was pushing the private member's bill,

but I think where George and I might agree on this, I find it incredible

that the Lib Dems who sit in the Government and endorsed the policy,

then come marching through the lobbies to oppose it, which is

essentially what happened, I mean if you are in a coalition government

doing these things, you go out and defend them. I agree on that. Stop

agreeing! There is an outbreak of agreement from two west London boys,

although we did have a different upbringing as Alan's brilliant book

shows! That's all we have time

for this morning. Next Sunday we'll be back

at our usual time of nine o'clock, but a different location - with

only days to go before the Scottish referendum, the show will be in

Edinburgh, where I'll be joined by the First Minister, Alex Salmond,

leading the campaign And of course we'll hear

the case for the union too. So, political passion,

and one of the greatest names Do join me for all that,

but for now, a very good morning.