12/02/2017 The Andrew Marr Show


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12/02/2017

Joining Andrew are David Lidington, Tom Watson and composer John Adams. Reviewing the papers are Laura Perrins, Rachel Shabi and David Aaronovitch. Plus music from Chrissie Hynde.


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Health, social care, the Speaker under siege.

:00:00.:00:07.

But in the Commons, Theresa May seems almost unchallenged -

:00:08.:00:09.

she's enjoyed bigger than expected majorities on Brexit and she has

:00:10.:00:13.

Labour's deputy leader Tom Watson, is one of the party's

:00:14.:00:40.

He's here to talk about leadership, the core vote and what he's called

:00:41.:00:45.

Should Parliament be rid of its turbulent -

:00:46.:00:51.

I'll be talking to the Leader of the Commons David Lidington.

:00:52.:00:56.

The NHS also faces an existential crisis.

:00:57.:00:58.

So says Robert Francis, chair of the inquiry

:00:59.:01:01.

I'm joined by one of the world's greatest composers, John Adams,

:01:02.:01:18.

And that timeless rocker Chrissie Hynde, back

:01:19.:01:26.

Corbyn supporting journalist and commentator Rachel Shabi,

:01:27.:01:36.

the Times columnist, David Aaronovitch and the

:01:37.:01:38.

But first, the news with Ben Thompson.

:01:39.:01:49.

The Commons Speaker, John Bercow, who was criticised

:01:50.:01:51.

by some MPs for his remarks about President Trump last week,

:01:52.:01:54.

is facing new pressure this morning about his impartiality.

:01:55.:01:56.

A video has emerged of him declaring that he voted Remain

:01:57.:01:59.

The film has been published by the Sunday Telegraph.

:02:00.:02:12.

This may not be popular with some people in this audience -

:02:13.:02:15.

I thought it was better to stay in the European Union than not,

:02:16.:02:19.

partly for economic reason, being part of a big trade bloc,

:02:20.:02:22.

and partly because I think we're in a world of power blocs,

:02:23.:02:25.

and I think for all the weaknesses and deficiencies

:02:26.:02:27.

of the European Union, it is better to be part of that big

:02:28.:02:30.

The Royal College of Surgeons and the organisation

:02:31.:02:34.

representing hospital trusts say thousands of

:02:35.:02:36.

operations are being cancelled because of a shortage of hospital

:02:37.:02:38.

They've made their warning in a joint letter to the Sunday Times.

:02:39.:02:43.

NHS England said only 1% of operations were being cancelled.

:02:44.:02:48.

14 retired bishops have written an open letter

:02:49.:02:50.

to Church of England leaders, accusing them of suppressing

:02:51.:02:52.

Last month, a Church of England report recommended a "fresh tone,

:02:53.:02:57.

and culture of welcome and support" for them but re-asserted

:02:58.:03:02.

The former bishops say that while the report spoke

:03:03.:03:08.

about the pain of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender

:03:09.:03:14.

people, it failed to reflect their authentic voices.

:03:15.:03:18.

North Korea has fired a ballistic missile into the Sea of Japan.

:03:19.:03:21.

The South Korean military said the flight distance

:03:22.:03:23.

The White House said President Trump had been briefed about the launch.

:03:24.:03:29.

The timing of the test coincides with the visit

:03:30.:03:31.

of the Japanese Prime Minister, Shinzo Abe, to the US.

:03:32.:03:33.

Mr Abe said the test was "absolutely intolerable".

:03:34.:03:38.

The British Academy Film Awards will be presented tonight

:03:39.:03:40.

The Hollywood musical, La La Land, has the most

:03:41.:03:45.

I, Daniel Blake, Ken Loach's examination of life in the UK

:03:46.:03:51.

benefits system, is shortlisted in five categories.

:03:52.:03:54.

It's already won the coveted Palme d'Or Prize at the Cannes Festival.

:03:55.:03:59.

The next news on BBC One is at One o'clock.

:04:00.:04:03.

That mis-8 story arrived too late for the Sunday paper, there is the

:04:04.:04:15.

front of the Sunday tell graph with the Bercow story, it was their

:04:16.:04:20.

recording. A great picture from the extraordinary rugby match, Wales

:04:21.:04:24.

against England, much covered today, it was Wales' right until the last

:04:25.:04:29.

moment, an amazing game that. The Observer has a story you heard on

:04:30.:04:33.

the new, the gay relationship row inside the Church of England and the

:04:34.:04:36.

resulting by on the front-page. The Sunday Times, -- rugby. They have

:04:37.:04:40.

got a story about a secret search for a new Labour leader they say,

:04:41.:04:46.

this is based on internal party work, putting to polls of voters

:04:47.:04:54.

possible few chur leaders, a different political story, the Mail

:04:55.:05:01.

on Sunday Diane Abbott and David Davis had an encounter. We will talk

:05:02.:05:05.

about that later on. Much more in the paper, but those are the

:05:06.:05:07.

essences of the story. That story, John Bercow who seems to

:05:08.:05:22.

believe that the rules of Parliamentary neutrality don't apply

:05:23.:05:26.

to him. After coming after his outspoken remarks against President

:05:27.:05:29.

Trump which I think brings Parliament into disrepute because he

:05:30.:05:34.

is clearly under a duty to remain neutral, he has been found to be

:05:35.:05:39.

speaking in relation to Brexit, and of course, this is has serious

:05:40.:05:44.

implication because he will chair the debate in relation to the Brexit

:05:45.:05:51.

bill and for him to say I voted to stay, I think puts, puts him in an

:05:52.:05:56.

untenable position. There is about 12, I think Tory MPs who are already

:05:57.:05:59.

lined up a motion against him, the question is does this story then

:06:00.:06:03.

turn that 12 into many more and start a process that gives him an

:06:04.:06:08.

impossible week? I think there is a moral obligation for him to stand

:06:09.:06:11.

down. It very important that the Speaker is seen as being neutral and

:06:12.:06:18.

the rules are clear, it says that he must remain politically impartial at

:06:19.:06:22.

all times, if you want to be speaker and you get various privileges it is

:06:23.:06:27.

your duty and responsibility to remain impartial. So a wry smile

:06:28.:06:32.

over David's face. I think it is daft. Who possibly imagined that

:06:33.:06:38.

John Bercow didn't have an opinion? Incidentally one of the candidates

:06:39.:06:43.

who want him out is Jacob Rees-Mogg, no-one has the faintest idea want he

:06:44.:06:48.

thinks about Brexit do they. You have an opinion, Andrew but you are

:06:49.:06:52.

not allowed to voice it on this programme, but you will, when you go

:06:53.:06:55.

to schools tell them what you think about things and you won't say I

:06:56.:06:58.

can't have an opinion about it. We rely on you to do your job in the

:06:59.:07:03.

studio, we rely on the speaker to do his job in the House of Commons, not

:07:04.:07:07.

to be a political eunuch. The rules are clear, there is a reason behind

:07:08.:07:10.

the rules, they are not there for the sake of it. He is chairing the

:07:11.:07:16.

debates. It is important he is seen to be impartial, it doesn't say you

:07:17.:07:23.

must remain impartial while chairing the debate, it is all time, if he

:07:24.:07:26.

doesn't want the rules and express his opinion, he can have one, if he

:07:27.:07:30.

wants to express it don't take on the role. Rachel. He may be

:07:31.:07:36.

calculating that most MPs were pro-Remain and he relieses on the

:07:37.:07:40.

support of the House of Commons, so what he said, would be unpopular in

:07:41.:07:44.

the Sunday Sunday Telegraph and sections of the Conservative Party

:07:45.:07:47.

but might be popular on the floor of the House itself. And irrelevant to

:07:48.:07:51.

most of the population of the country who are more interested in

:07:52.:07:55.

the second news item about the NHS. We will talk more about that later

:07:56.:08:00.

in the show. Another big political story, the Labour Party. Something

:08:01.:08:04.

or nothing David? It is very difficult to tell.

:08:05.:08:09.

As far as, I have, a slight story to tell here which is that somebody

:08:10.:08:13.

texted me this morning, late last night, so this story would be

:08:14.:08:16.

appearing in the Sunday Times and I can tell you where it came from. I

:08:17.:08:20.

said are you sure about it? They said yes, it comes from Jon Trickett

:08:21.:08:24.

who was the campaign manager. I have to say.? We are been told, I can't

:08:25.:08:31.

test it. He left this week and the suggestion is that in addition to

:08:32.:08:34.

the normal polling that I do, the questions were asked of a focus

:08:35.:08:40.

group about a number of top Labour people, top Labour people recently

:08:41.:08:44.

Labour people and there was reaction taken to it. At one level this is a

:08:45.:08:49.

further push in the long ago anyof the Labour Party, which is now

:08:50.:08:54.

disintegrated, except for its capacity to fight some collections

:08:55.:08:58.

in some places and so on. At another level it is an indicator of the fact

:08:59.:09:02.

there is an incredible level of infighting going on, even among

:09:03.:09:07.

people who used to be described as Corbynistas, it is clear to people

:09:08.:09:11.

that he a realises his time is coming to an end. Rachel, described

:09:12.:09:16.

you as a Corbyn supporter, is that still the case? I mean, think, look,

:09:17.:09:22.

there were probably attempts to find a replacement for Corbyn since he

:09:23.:09:25.

was elected, the first time round, that said, I do think it is case

:09:26.:09:33.

that the people who did support him through two leadership elections

:09:34.:09:39.

will now be starting to feel concern and I think that is primarily over

:09:40.:09:43.

the way that Brexit was handled. Now, we know that the Labour Party

:09:44.:09:48.

has particular difficulties around Brexit, because of the way it

:09:49.:09:53.

breaks, in terms of being representative of both levers and

:09:54.:09:56.

remainor, that puts it in a unique situation that isn't much to do with

:09:57.:10:00.

Corbyn, but we know that is the country, that is who we are, the

:10:01.:10:05.

Labour, Labour Party voters are who we are, and therefore, there is an

:10:06.:10:09.

opportunity to be the leaders, to be the vision, to be the unity, that

:10:10.:10:12.

this country really needs, and I know it is easy for me to sit here

:10:13.:10:16.

around say, that is what should happen and the reality is very

:10:17.:10:21.

difficult, but I think that in some way the Labour Party has squandered

:10:22.:10:25.

an opportunity to be the vision that we need to get out of. I think the

:10:26.:10:33.

Labour Party is in difficulty and those difficulties will remain,

:10:34.:10:37.

whoever is in, whoever is the leader and those difficulties have to be

:10:38.:10:42.

addressed. We see the question asked on the front-page of The Observer,

:10:43.:10:46.

can anyone save the Labour Party? One doesn't want to be apocalyptic

:10:47.:10:50.

or extreme about this, but is it possible, is it possible that we are

:10:51.:10:54.

about to see the end of the Labour Party, as a national force? The big

:10:55.:11:01.

thing is that the electoral system in enormously advantages parties

:11:02.:11:03.

until a tipping point and the question is whether Labour passes

:11:04.:11:07.

beyond the inning point, which is round about 28% and so on. After

:11:08.:11:11.

that anything can happen. -- tipping point. We don't know the answer to

:11:12.:11:16.

that yet. If Jeremy Corbyn is leader and the present situation continues,

:11:17.:11:19.

and so on, until the next election through is a very real chance Labour

:11:20.:11:24.

will dip below the tipping point at that point we can't tell who will

:11:25.:11:27.

benefit from it. Let us turn to a story about one of Jeremy Corbyn 's

:11:28.:11:31.

current supporters, Diane Abbott who was in the House of Commons after

:11:32.:11:34.

the Brexit vote, and David Davis, the Brexit minister came up to her

:11:35.:11:40.

and what happened is contested but he has had some ungallant texts now

:11:41.:11:47.

leaked to the Mail on Sunday. Yes texts suggesting, he was blasted for

:11:48.:11:52.

actually he wasn't, he, what happened is he was supposed to have

:11:53.:11:57.

tried to kiss her after the Article 50 vote in Parliament and she told

:11:58.:12:03.

him to F off. He says he was whispering in her ear, you can see

:12:04.:12:08.

how that could be... The focus was not on his attempts to kiss her

:12:09.:12:11.

which are completely inappropriate, but on her response, and look,

:12:12.:12:15.

whatever we think, whatever you think of Diane Abbott's opinions, it

:12:16.:12:20.

is the case that being black and female subjects her to a level of

:12:21.:12:26.

abuse that is just off the scale, and David Davis is a man who is a

:12:27.:12:32.

public figure and there is a responsibility for people like him,

:12:33.:12:35.

to set a tone, which he has completely failed to do, in the way

:12:36.:12:41.

he has behaved. You are missing the key point. It is wrong to hang David

:12:42.:12:47.

Davis out to dry on what are private text, we aren titled to have private

:12:48.:12:52.

thoughts and conversations, with our friends, and this isn't something he

:12:53.:12:55.

has said in public, David Davis is not your typical Tory, he was

:12:56.:13:00.

brought up by a single mum, he did very well in grammar school. He is

:13:01.:13:04.

pushing Brexit through in a calm and controlled manner, we are all

:13:05.:13:07.

entitled to you know, a zone of privacy. I think that you know, he

:13:08.:13:11.

who has never texted in regret should cast the first stone here,

:13:12.:13:16.

really. That is right. To say he is part of the peat yar I can is

:13:17.:13:20.

ridiculous, he is a reasonable individual, he is a very dignified

:13:21.:13:23.

person, that rarely gets involved and this is the problem, when you

:13:24.:13:28.

are leaking, it is a private conversation, and I think we all

:13:29.:13:32.

regret now and again having a private conversation, and I think we

:13:33.:13:36.

should let the man be, as opposed to hounding him over you know, a few

:13:37.:13:41.

words. I was state educated do you think I am entitled to kiss Andrew?

:13:42.:13:46.

That is an issue. We don't want that on camera! Diane Abbott is very

:13:47.:13:51.

experienced and she is able the look after herself. That doesn't mean she

:13:52.:13:55.

should be subjected to this. This was private. If somebody did

:13:56.:13:59.

something against her she is entitled to say take a hike and that

:14:00.:14:05.

is what she did. Now to another man. Trump aid. Yes, this is one of a

:14:06.:14:11.

couple of stories, big stories about the Trump visit, whenever that is

:14:12.:14:16.

going to happen. People seem toe have accepted whatever they think

:14:17.:14:20.

about Mr Bercow, that they won't be an address to particlement, and now

:14:21.:14:24.

they are talking about whether or not Trump can come to London at all.

:14:25.:14:29.

And so couple of things that are throated, that he will be sent to

:14:30.:14:33.

Birmingham where there was a vote of 450,000 in the Brexit thing, and

:14:34.:14:39.

Leave won by 3,000 because that supposed to the Brexit heartland.

:14:40.:14:45.

And an insider, in the White House, not named, said what he would like

:14:46.:14:50.

to do is to do a Poppy Appeal from Wembley Stadium or the Cardiff

:14:51.:14:55.

Millennium Stadium, also a Remain area as it happens. I don't know

:14:56.:14:58.

what the British Legion thinks about it but I don't think they are going

:14:59.:15:01.

to be impressed. This is turning out to be an embarrassing story for the

:15:02.:15:05.

Government, because the invitation has been offered an accepted. He is

:15:06.:15:10.

coming but now because of what is going on they are moved it away from

:15:11.:15:15.

London, this is supposed to make Trump feel warm and Britain and help

:15:16.:15:20.

us get a trade deal. It is not going so well.

:15:21.:15:25.

Even Donald Trump must be getting the message that Britain does not

:15:26.:15:31.

want him to come. There has been overwhelming disapproval about this

:15:32.:15:45.

state visit Doctor. The fact that Theresa May invited him over so

:15:46.:15:50.

swiftly was seen as embarrassing and distasteful by many. In Poland it

:15:51.:15:54.

has shown he is not welcome. I find it amusing idea that he will get a

:15:55.:16:00.

better reception in Birmingham, one of our most cosmopolitan cities will

:16:01.:16:05.

stop a reasonably quick response, Laura? I think people need to

:16:06.:16:09.

understand you are not inviting Donald Trump over as your mate, you

:16:10.:16:15.

are inviting him in his role as president of the United States. You

:16:16.:16:18.

probably don't like another person but I think it is best not to trash

:16:19.:16:23.

your national assets in public. I think what John Bercow did was

:16:24.:16:28.

wrong. He is a key ally, you are inviting him as president of the

:16:29.:16:34.

United States. You have to move on. We have to move on ourselves. David,

:16:35.:16:39.

there is one last story from the Telegraph. Another of my roles is to

:16:40.:16:46.

chair an organisation about freedom of expression. The Law Society is

:16:47.:16:50.

recommending a possible change in the law, a new espionage act which

:16:51.:16:55.

would have the effect of criminalising the possession of

:16:56.:16:58.

official documents about the economy if it was passed. That seems to

:16:59.:17:06.

Coney and? Laura passed out that a Law Commission idea is far from

:17:07.:17:12.

stack to it but it is rather chilling prospect -- Laura pointed

:17:13.:17:23.

out that this is far from a state law. Thank you all of you.

:17:24.:17:26.

The weather - another desperately dreary week -

:17:27.:17:28.

It wasn't even really snow, just a thin skitter.

:17:29.:17:32.

Matt Taylor is in the BBC weather centre.

:17:33.:17:39.

Thank you very much, Andrew. We will see some more snow this afternoon

:17:40.:17:45.

across the hills of northern England. Maybe a thin coating for

:17:46.:17:51.

other parts of north-east England. There will be an extra of rain,

:17:52.:17:57.

sleet and snow here. On higher ground some snow but the rest of the

:17:58.:18:09.

country will be dry. Another chilly day. It stays windy through tonight.

:18:10.:18:15.

Mist and fog over higher ground. Lots of cloud in the northern half

:18:16.:18:18.

of the UK to take us into Monday morning. In the south-west it will

:18:19.:18:23.

get warmer through the night rather than colder. The stronger of the

:18:24.:18:27.

winds on Monday, particularly for North coasts and around parts of

:18:28.:18:33.

western Wales. A lot more sunshine on Monday to the west and south of

:18:34.:18:37.

the UK. Eastern parts of Scotland and eastern England will hold on to

:18:38.:18:41.

the cloud, the greatest of the conditions with some damp weather at

:18:42.:18:46.

times. The chill will be going. While some of us are struggling to

:18:47.:18:50.

get to 4 degrees today, by midweek we will have highs into double

:18:51.:18:54.

figures. Andrea. So how bad are things

:18:55.:19:00.

in the NHS really? Four years ago, Sir Robert Francis's

:19:01.:19:03.

inquiry into the mid-Staffordshire hospital scandal found evidence

:19:04.:19:05.

of "appalling suffering" by patients But this winter, pressures

:19:06.:19:07.

on the NHS in England have reached a point which ministers

:19:08.:19:16.

concede is "unacceptable". Welcome, Sir Robert. Good morning.

:19:17.:19:31.

You have talked about the NHS being at a great level of stress. How bad

:19:32.:19:37.

are things in your view? I think they are pretty bad. We have a

:19:38.:19:43.

virtual storm of financial pressures, increased demand,

:19:44.:19:46.

difficulties finding staffing and pressures on the service to continue

:19:47.:19:51.

delivering. Some of that sounds quite familiar. Those were the

:19:52.:19:56.

conditions pertaining at the time of Mid Staffordshire. Things have

:19:57.:20:00.

changed since then. The fact we are talking about this today in the way

:20:01.:20:02.

that we are, the secretary of state says

:20:03.:20:16.

things are unacceptable shows there is a greater level of transparency.

:20:17.:20:19.

People are talking about the problems in a way they were not

:20:20.:20:21.

before. The system is running extremely hot at the moment. It is

:20:22.:20:24.

only running with the superhuman efforts of the staff in the NHS. It

:20:25.:20:29.

cannot carry on like that indefinitely without something bad

:20:30.:20:36.

going wrong. To remind people, the mid-Staffs scandal was horrific,

:20:37.:20:39.

people lying in their own faeces and people dying earlier than they might

:20:40.:20:43.

have done, awful tales of cruelty and neglect, when you say we might

:20:44.:20:50.

see in other mid-Staffs, isn't that overdoing it? There are better

:20:51.:20:54.

safeguards in place in terms of transparency so I would like to

:20:55.:20:57.

think that before we got to that stage, that the problems would come

:20:58.:21:01.

to light. But I think the risks increase all the time. The pressure

:21:02.:21:10.

keeps getting worse and we know that more and more chief executives are

:21:11.:21:13.

saying they cannot meet their financial targets. More and more

:21:14.:21:19.

hospitals haven't got staff they planned to have and things are being

:21:20.:21:25.

done about all these things, but the faster the engine has to run, the

:21:26.:21:29.

more effort that has to be made in repairing it, the greater the risks.

:21:30.:21:35.

We seem to be stuck in a spiral of the stories where the government

:21:36.:21:40.

says we are putting in enough money and then there is another scandal

:21:41.:21:43.

and crisis and we go round and round and round. Do we think we are at the

:21:44.:21:47.

point as a country where we need to think about a different way of

:21:48.:21:52.

funding the NHS, a more consistent way of funding the NHS so we don't

:21:53.:22:00.

have these recurring crises? I don't think the problems are entirely due

:22:01.:22:03.

to money. Money can provide a sticking plaster and the history of

:22:04.:22:06.

the NHS has been that over a number of years, whenever there is a crisis

:22:07.:22:14.

more money is put in but we carry on doing things in the same way. Excuse

:22:15.:22:23.

me, I need to put my thing back on. I am sorry, BBC technology. But we

:22:24.:22:27.

have to revisit how we deliver the service. For instance, adult social

:22:28.:22:34.

care is also in a state of crisis, and if we don't change the way we do

:22:35.:22:40.

things, for instance, if we don't find better ways of avoiding people

:22:41.:22:46.

having to come to hospital, we will carry on repeating these crises. I

:22:47.:22:50.

am sorry about your earpiece, since I have got you here, can I ask you

:22:51.:22:54.

about the condition of whistle-blowers, because a lot of

:22:55.:22:58.

whistle-blowers feel in your report you did not give them enough

:22:59.:23:01.

safeguards against frankly bullying bosses who did not want their

:23:02.:23:05.

stories to come out and the rest of us depend on whistle-blowers to tell

:23:06.:23:12.

us what is going on in the NHS. I have made my proposals, the

:23:13.:23:19.

intention of which is to mean the raising of concerns is utterly

:23:20.:23:22.

normal and I think those reforms are embedded. We now have a network of

:23:23.:23:27.

freedom to speak up guardians around all hospitals. They should all have

:23:28.:23:33.

one now, to whom people can go when they have a problem about raising

:23:34.:23:36.

concerns. There is a national guardian to make sure the network

:23:37.:23:40.

gets the support it needs. The problems will not be solved just by

:23:41.:23:46.

helping individual whistle-blowers. We need to make sure that the staff

:23:47.:23:50.

who currently say things are going wrong on this and two. They have the

:23:51.:23:58.

solutions often to the problems they meet on a day-to-day basis and I do

:23:59.:24:03.

believe that is necessary. Very interesting, thank you for joining

:24:04.:24:04.

us. John Adams is revered by many

:24:05.:24:07.

Americans as their greatest living composer, but accused

:24:08.:24:10.

by a minority of anti-semitism. His work has divided critics,

:24:11.:24:14.

provoked protests, but filled Adams turns 70 this week,

:24:15.:24:16.

and believes that his best work He came into the studio recently,

:24:17.:24:21.

and we discussed the controversies that have been attached

:24:22.:24:25.

to his music, the political element to it, and why he won't be

:24:26.:24:27.

writing "Donald Trump - I don't pick the subjects

:24:28.:24:30.

to be provocative. is going to have any currency

:24:31.:24:41.

as a living art form, it really has to address the great

:24:42.:24:46.

themes of our lives. So I have an opera about terrorism,

:24:47.:24:56.

the death of Klinghoffer, an opera about Communism

:24:57.:25:00.

versus capitalism, The death of Klinghoffer,

:25:01.:25:04.

which you mention, caused a kind of paroxysm of anger in parts

:25:05.:25:18.

of America, and you felt that you were being

:25:19.:25:20.

trailed around America and weren't entirely safe there for a while,

:25:21.:25:24.

do you still feel that? I experienced with some people,

:25:25.:25:29.

experience which is an attack basically on the internet,

:25:30.:25:31.

and it was from people who didn't want all sides of a very delicate

:25:32.:25:34.

issue, which in this case was Israel

:25:35.:25:38.

and Palestine, to be aired. And Rudy Giuliani led protests

:25:39.:25:43.

against the opera in public, and he now may well be a very

:25:44.:25:47.

powerful figure in America, Well, Rudy Giuliani said

:25:48.:25:50.

he had my operas on his iPod. I think he said in his best

:25:51.:25:57.

New Yorkese, "John Adams is a good composer but his

:25:58.:26:00.

politics are wrong." You know, we're in a period

:26:01.:26:05.

when everything has been turned upside down, both here in England

:26:06.:26:10.

and in the US, so it's after that period, do you have any

:26:11.:26:13.

regrets at all about the opera Well, I think the addressing

:26:14.:26:22.

of my opera was from people I mean, the great Supreme Court

:26:23.:26:28.

Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg was in the Metropolitan Opera

:26:29.:26:34.

Theatre that same night, and she herself is Jewish,

:26:35.:26:38.

and she said she found nothing that was even remotely

:26:39.:26:41.

anti-Semitic about it, that it was an opera that expressed

:26:42.:26:45.

both sides of this But the family themselves,

:26:46.:26:49.

the daughters in particular, They were, but the interesting thing

:26:50.:26:53.

was they had collaborated earlier on two movies,

:26:54.:26:58.

which told the story So I don't think there was any issue

:26:59.:27:00.

of invading their privacy. Now as we have said, you have done

:27:01.:27:06.

lots of big political operas and you have put Nixon

:27:07.:27:09.

on to the stage. And it has to be said that

:27:10.:27:28.

Donald Trump is a kind of operatic I wonder if there's any attraction

:27:29.:27:31.

in doing Donald Trump, The Opera? Well, I don't think so,

:27:32.:27:36.

because I think at the moment people it's a kind of, to me a very tacky

:27:37.:27:39.

form of television entertainment, that he's employing

:27:40.:27:49.

to run the presidency. I don't think it is

:27:50.:27:52.

really interesting, going on in America at the moment,

:27:53.:27:54.

and you're doing something Is that as much about the modern day

:27:55.:28:01.

as it is about back in the 1890s? It's interesting for me,

:28:02.:28:08.

because it's an opera that goes back into the past, the past

:28:09.:28:11.

of my home state of California, and looks at a period in American

:28:12.:28:16.

history where people were just consumed with greed,

:28:17.:28:20.

and also with a kind of nativism and racism we have seen emerge over

:28:21.:28:24.

the the last year in the Presidential campaign,

:28:25.:28:29.

so I think, you know, the parallels between Silicon Valley

:28:30.:28:33.

and between what's happening politically in the United States

:28:34.:28:36.

will come to play in this new opera. John, you are now

:28:37.:28:40.

the most successful, composer of what is called classical

:28:41.:28:42.

music in the world, I guess. What is classical music,

:28:43.:28:50.

how do you understand it, how do you describe your own

:28:51.:28:52.

music for those people You know, my parents were both

:28:53.:28:57.

jazz musicians, and, You saw a lot of rock and pop music

:28:58.:29:04.

as you were are geowng up. Of course, I came of age during

:29:05.:29:09.

the period of Sergeant Peppers You know, as Leonard Bernstein

:29:10.:29:12.

showed, we in America, we make very little difference

:29:13.:29:17.

between classical and pop. into the other and that is certainly

:29:18.:29:21.

the case with my music. I must ask you, do you have

:29:22.:29:25.

a lot more things that You know, my great inspiration

:29:26.:29:29.

of course is Beethoven, because as he aged he got deeper

:29:30.:29:34.

and his music became even better, and I feel that, you know,

:29:35.:29:39.

what I have to write over the next ten or 20 years,

:29:40.:29:42.

if I'm lucky enough, will be better than anything

:29:43.:29:45.

I've done even before. John Adams, thank you very

:29:46.:29:47.

much for talking to us. And John Adams will be conducting

:29:48.:29:50.

the BBC Symphony Orchestra They'll be performing a concert

:29:51.:29:55.

staging of his haunting These are dramatic times

:29:56.:29:58.

in Parliament with convulsions over Brexit, Donald Trump and the future

:29:59.:30:07.

of the Commons Speaker himself. I'm joined by the leader of the

:30:08.:30:10.

House of Commons, David Lidington. Mr Lidington, do, did you personally

:30:11.:30:20.

feel any anxiety when you saw what John Bercow said about his hostility

:30:21.:30:24.

to Brexit, in public? Well, as I understand it, I have seen the TV

:30:25.:30:28.

clip, this was in answer to a question he got at an open meeting

:30:29.:30:32.

at Reading University, I think had this been before the referendum,

:30:33.:30:36.

that yes, I would have had concern, I mean, he said what he said, every

:30:37.:30:42.

member is responsible for what they say. What I can say is I have more

:30:43.:30:50.

than six years under David Cameron, I never found the speaker was shy of

:30:51.:30:53.

calling lots of people who are critical of the EU to ask me

:30:54.:30:58.

difficult questions. So if you go on to website of the House of Commons

:30:59.:31:03.

and you go to speaker, it says the speaker is the highest authority of

:31:04.:31:07.

the House of Commons and must remain politically impartial at all times.

:31:08.:31:10.

And there is is a lot of MPs in your own party who feel he has breached

:31:11.:31:16.

that rule. Yes, the, there will be strong reaction among some MPs to

:31:17.:31:19.

what he said, particularly after what he said about the proposed

:31:20.:31:25.

state visit earlier in the week, ultimately, you know, the Speaker

:31:26.:31:28.

has to command the confidence of the House of Commons as a whole. The

:31:29.:31:33.

speaker has to have cross-party authority. These are live issues the

:31:34.:31:39.

Commons will be debating for the next 18 months. Alex Shellbrook says

:31:40.:31:43.

John Bercow's comments are in clear breach of the guidelines, laid down

:31:44.:31:49.

on the independence of the speaker of the House and James Duddridge

:31:50.:31:52.

says Speaker Bercow cannot come back to the chair, having expressed views

:31:53.:31:57.

on Brexit. He is incapable of chairing Parliament as the speaker

:31:58.:32:00.

on any European business, do you agree with that? That is their

:32:01.:32:04.

opinion. It is a matter for members of the House. It is what is really

:32:05.:32:10.

important is that the Government doesn't get involved in saying who

:32:11.:32:17.

the speaker ought to be the speaker is the elected chairman of the House

:32:18.:32:22.

of Commons as a whole, it's really, not the creature of Government.

:32:23.:32:25.

Presumably he has embarrassed the Government and you over the Trump

:32:26.:32:29.

visit. I assume you have had conversation about moving the haves

:32:30.:32:32.

as a result of what happened? The Trump visit is still under

:32:33.:32:35.

discussion between the two governments, as with any state visit

:32:36.:32:40.

there is a range of variables, the diaries on both sides, what makes up

:32:41.:32:43.

a good programme, when is the right times? Have you had discussion about

:32:44.:32:49.

whether Donald Trump should address the two Chambers of Parliament? The

:32:50.:32:52.

speaker, and I talked obviously to the Prime Minister, I talked to the

:32:53.:32:56.

speaker from time to time about all sorts of thing, but the arrangements

:32:57.:33:01.

for the state visits are conducted between Number Ten and Buckingham

:33:02.:33:03.

Palace, arranging and the White House, on behalf of the President.

:33:04.:33:07.

My understanding is those conversations are still ongoing,

:33:08.:33:13.

when it comes to whether any state visit should address Parliament,

:33:14.:33:16.

that doesn't happen with every state visit nor is there a set venue, it

:33:17.:33:20.

is one of the options available. So what we know is that a lot of Tory

:33:21.:33:25.

MPs are livid with him about Trump and about Brexit. My question is do

:33:26.:33:29.

you think he can survive the week ahead? Do you think this will come

:33:30.:33:33.

to a vote, there has been a motion of no confidence put down, will it

:33:34.:33:37.

be voted upon? There is a motion been put down the day before we

:33:38.:33:43.

broke for the half-term recess, it will be for all Members of

:33:44.:33:48.

Parliament, individually, cross-party to decide how they

:33:49.:33:54.

respond. How would you vote? I am a member of the Government, it is a

:33:55.:33:57.

matter for the House as a whole. It sounds as if you can confidence in

:33:58.:34:01.

Speaker Bercow. I said the government this is determineded this

:34:02.:34:03.

is a matter for the House as a whole. It is important for the very

:34:04.:34:07.

independence of the speaker's office that the speaker earthquake when

:34:08.:34:12.

they started as a Conservative or Labour MP, whatever is independence

:34:13.:34:14.

of Government. Speakers if anything should lean towards the people who

:34:15.:34:18.

are not in Government. As John Bercow probe has done in the way he

:34:19.:34:23.

has used questions which we find convenient. Your instinct is he

:34:24.:34:29.

might win if it comes to a vote? He has strong supporters as well as

:34:30.:34:31.

strong critics in the House of Commons. But we shall have to see

:34:32.:34:35.

how members as a whole respond. There is some strange things been

:34:36.:34:39.

said on behalf of the Government about the House of Lords. If the

:34:40.:34:43.

House of Lords seeks to amend the Article 50 legislation, do you think

:34:44.:34:48.

it should be challenged or everyone established, or reformed as some of

:34:49.:34:52.

your colleagues seem to think? We have a constitutional process, the

:34:53.:34:56.

fact that the exit bill has gone to the House of Lords, Article 50 has

:34:57.:34:59.

gone to House of Lords with a majority of more than 300 from the

:35:00.:35:05.

House of Commons, and unamended and frankly the amendments are all

:35:06.:35:07.

defeated by majorities in excess, well in excess of the vt Gough's

:35:08.:35:11.

normal majority, is a pretty powerful message to the Lords, they

:35:12.:35:14.

have got a proper constitutional duty to examine that. Of course they

:35:15.:35:20.

are free to propose and debate amendments. I hope they will take

:35:21.:35:22.

full account of the strength of opinion from the elected House. It

:35:23.:35:29.

sounds to me normal majority, is a pretty powerful message to the

:35:30.:35:31.

Lords, they have got a proper constitutional duty to examine that.

:35:32.:35:34.

Of course they are free to propose and debate amendments. I hope they

:35:35.:35:36.

will take full account of the strength of opinion from the elected

:35:37.:35:39.

House. It sounds to me as a coded threats, "I wouldn't go there if I

:35:40.:35:41.

was you. Something nasty might happen to you." I am not round the

:35:42.:35:44.

back alley waiting for a stray peer with a cosh in my hand. It is this,

:35:45.:35:47.

there is under the constitutional arrangement there has been

:35:48.:35:49.

acceptance, the Lords has a proper role as a scrutinising and reviewing

:35:50.:35:53.

chamber, but ultimately, the Commons is the elected chamber, and behind

:35:54.:35:56.

the Commons on this occasion stands the vote of a referendum. One final

:35:57.:36:00.

question, we have heard from opposition leaders that the fight is

:36:01.:36:04.

just about to start on the Brexit bill, over the next 18 months are

:36:05.:36:08.

there going to be moments in the Commons where there will be

:36:09.:36:11.

substantive and important votes on aspects of the negotiations as they

:36:12.:36:14.

go forward or are we waiting for the vote at the end of the process? I

:36:15.:36:19.

think that would, it depends crucially on what kind of amendments

:36:20.:36:24.

are tabled and are found to be in order and debated and how people

:36:25.:36:27.

respond to those, we have got the bill that will come in after the

:36:28.:36:32.

Queen's Speech to repeal the European Communities Act and put EU

:36:33.:36:35.

legal obligation on the UK basis, we will need a number of additional

:36:36.:36:41.

pieces of statute, over the next couple of year, to give the British

:36:42.:36:46.

authorities the power to do things that are at present done by the EU.

:36:47.:36:50.

So there will be opportunities for votes. There will be plenty of

:36:51.:36:55.

opportunity, obviously the precise nature depends on what the motions

:36:56.:36:59.

are, what the amendments are. I talk to people who have been over in

:37:00.:37:04.

Brussels looking at this from the other side. They say they think we

:37:05.:37:09.

might get a frictionless, low tariff access to the single market. That

:37:10.:37:12.

might be doable but on the other hand, the French and the Germans and

:37:13.:37:18.

others are determined to get their so call divorce settlement, the

:37:19.:37:22.

40-60 billion euros paid by the UK Government and that will be usual

:37:23.:37:25.

issue, if the Tory MPs who think that is far too much and shouldn't

:37:26.:37:29.

happen, will they get a chance to make their voices heard in the House

:37:30.:37:34.

of Commons? There will be a vote on the final deal, the Prime Minister's

:37:35.:37:38.

made that clear, I am sure that in the course of legislation and

:37:39.:37:43.

frankly the statements we will have, there will be lots of opportunity to

:37:44.:37:46.

probe issues connected with the negotiation, but the negotiations

:37:47.:37:49.

haven't started yet. At the moment we are seeing initial positioning on

:37:50.:37:54.

the side of the 27. They haven't met formally to discuss their opening

:37:55.:37:57.

negotiating mandate so we have a long way ahead of it. David

:37:58.:38:02.

David Lidington, thank you very much indeed.

:38:03.:38:05.

Now - coming up later this morning, Andrew Neil will be talking

:38:06.:38:07.

to Labour's leader in the House of Lords - as peers gear up

:38:08.:38:11.

Plus the latest from the Stoke by-election campaign trail,

:38:12.:38:14.

where Labour are being pushed hard by Ukip.

:38:15.:38:16.

That's the Sunday Politics at 11 here on BBC One.

:38:17.:38:19.

Few women in rock have had the musical and cultural

:38:20.:38:21.

Arriving in London 40 years ago - just in time for punk -

:38:22.:38:25.

she seized the opportunity to create a band that has stood

:38:26.:38:28.

The Pretenders were a non-stop hit machine and the first Pretenders

:38:29.:38:32.

album in almost a decade is one that's been getting

:38:33.:38:34.

Before I talk to Chrissie - who's going to be playing for us later -

:38:35.:38:39.

let's have a listen to the single, Holy Commotion.

:38:40.:38:47.

# I just want, I want, I want to see the light.

:38:48.:38:59.

# I just want, I want, I want to dance all night.

:39:00.:39:05.

That was Chrissie Hynde and The Pretenders but there aren't many

:39:06.:39:21.

left alive Martin Chambers, yes. Most of the band has gone Pete and

:39:22.:39:28.

Jimmy died in 1983. I was watching a little film you made alongside this

:39:29.:39:31.

where you make it clear that for you, the central thing in life is

:39:32.:39:34.

still live performance. Absolutely. Yes. Why is that? Well, it's, it's

:39:35.:39:40.

fun and that is what we do and what we kind of trained ourself to do

:39:41.:39:45.

since we were teenagers, and that, our vocation, that is when it

:39:46.:39:49.

happens when you are on the road. So what is different from a Pretenders

:39:50.:39:54.

album to a Chrissie Hynde album? Nothing, really. I called it my last

:39:55.:40:01.

album Chrissie Hynde because I was tired of defending the band ethos

:40:02.:40:06.

which is what it is. So rock music, particularly punk was created by

:40:07.:40:11.

16-year-olds and 17-year-olds, about their interest, lust and loneliness

:40:12.:40:16.

and angst and so on. You are 65, still performing, what is it about

:40:17.:40:21.

now? I don't think any of us saw it comes we would still be doing it

:40:22.:40:28.

this long, when I was 24 I thought I was too old then punk came along and

:40:29.:40:34.

I snuck in. It is about social commentary, personal, you know. What

:40:35.:40:38.

life feels like. Yes, that doesn't change, but the world changes. We

:40:39.:40:41.

are looking forward to hearing you later on. Thank you for coming in.

:40:42.:40:43.

Tom Watson was last here on this chair in September 2015,

:40:44.:40:47.

just after Jeremy Corbyn and he had stormed to victory

:40:48.:40:49.

in Labour's leadership and deputy leadership contest.

:40:50.:40:51.

His declared mission then - to get Labour fighting fit

:40:52.:40:53.

I am still recovering from being in the same studio as Chrissie Hynde

:40:54.:41:10.

there, I wasn't expecting that. We have had a tough 18 month, we had a

:41:11.:41:15.

damaging second leadership election so we have an uphill struggle ahead.

:41:16.:41:18.

The polls aren't great for us but I am determined now we have got the

:41:19.:41:23.

leadership settled for this Parliament, that we can focus on

:41:24.:41:28.

developing a very positive clear message to the British people in a

:41:29.:41:31.

general election. All round the place there is a kind of withdrawing

:41:32.:41:35.

roar of people no longer having confidence that you can win, are you

:41:36.:41:39.

yourself convinced the Labour Party can win a general election in this

:41:40.:41:43.

country? Yes, we could certainly win one, there is a lot of work to do,

:41:44.:41:47.

we need to make sure we address the concerns of the British people in a

:41:48.:41:51.

manifesto and we communicate our message more clearly than we have

:41:52.:41:55.

been doing, but yes, there is nothing to say Labour can't win a

:41:56.:41:59.

general election. I don't want to get into a debate where I say look

:42:00.:42:03.

at this and that is fine, look at that that and that is fine. We must

:42:04.:42:08.

look at one set of polling, possibly two. All the pollsters are showing

:42:09.:42:13.

the same gap, a big 13 or 14 point gap. Very bad for an opposition

:42:14.:42:18.

party at this point. Diane Abbott and others have said this gab will

:42:19.:42:23.

be closed in a year. Over the course of the next year, with the

:42:24.:42:27.

implication that if it isn't, something dramatic needs to happen,

:42:28.:42:31.

do you agree with that? I am not sure if setting those tests about

:42:32.:42:34.

when you, where you have to be in the polls are helpful, but not

:42:35.:42:38.

particularly unhelpful for our leader Jeremy Corbyn, but yes, if

:42:39.:42:41.

you want to win in a general election, you have to be leading the

:42:42.:42:45.

polls. Things have to start to turn round You have to have policies you

:42:46.:42:50.

can believe in and deliver on, that is is a big challenge for us. You

:42:51.:42:54.

have said there is an existential crisis facing the party. This goes

:42:55.:42:58.

back to Labour's history, it was created by an alliance between the

:42:59.:43:06.

organised working class on the one hand and intellectuals and on the

:43:07.:43:09.

other, they came together in a strange alliance, what it seems is

:43:10.:43:13.

that Brexit is breaking that apart. I did, I said we had an excel ten

:43:14.:43:20.

shall crisis last year when there was an impasse between our MPs and

:43:21.:43:25.

Jeremy, but you know, I do still think that people need a Labour

:43:26.:43:29.

Party, if you look at thele have as that underpin the Labour Party, the

:43:30.:43:33.

idea of the empowering state, that we want to reduce inequality, we

:43:34.:43:36.

want to give greater opportunity to even not just the few, those values

:43:37.:43:41.

are still enduring and we have been here before, where the working class

:43:42.:43:45.

and middle class people of Britain have been in alliance with each

:43:46.:43:50.

other, in the 1945 election... The question is are they still in

:43:51.:43:54.

alliance with each other? It is possible to have a manifesto that

:43:55.:43:59.

addresses the aspirations of both sets of voter, this, after 1945 when

:44:00.:44:04.

at Lee was leader there was concern? The trade unions we had too many

:44:05.:44:10.

middle class MPs, I hope we can make sure that we, the general election

:44:11.:44:14.

present the interest of both. This is about values and how people feel

:44:15.:44:22.

about life, Jon Cruddas who did work said since 2005, voters who are

:44:23.:44:24.

socially Conservative are the most likely to have deserted Labour, they

:44:25.:44:29.

value home, family, and their country. And Corbyn's cosmopolitan

:44:30.:44:37.

views on migration, the monarchy and Armed Forces are likely to have

:44:38.:44:40.

exacerbated that. There is is a point there. Jobs and homes is the

:44:41.:44:46.

bread and butter of politics and there are too many people... And

:44:47.:44:49.

country. There is no doubt about that. We need to convince people

:44:50.:44:53.

that we want this country to be great again, that if you live and

:44:54.:44:57.

work hard you can eventually own your own home, or rent a home at an

:44:58.:45:02.

affordable price, have a job that is satisfying and have a dignified

:45:03.:45:06.

retirement. You know. Make bring great again.

:45:07.:45:11.

Political parties who do not address those issues, that is what you have

:45:12.:45:25.

to look at. What I am asking is do the northern and West Country voters

:45:26.:45:32.

still feel attached to the party as they used to? Hope so because Labour

:45:33.:45:37.

is still the party of aspiration, if you come from a humble origins you

:45:38.:45:42.

will be able to get on in life with a Labour government. People still

:45:43.:45:44.

remember the great Labour governments. The idea that they

:45:45.:45:50.

don't need a party which challenges inequality and offers opportunity

:45:51.:45:55.

and hope, this is not correct. These are often socially conservative

:45:56.:45:58.

people in their views, they would stand for the national anthem, they

:45:59.:46:01.

are traditionalist and they often feel the Labour Party does not

:46:02.:46:06.

represent them. I would reject any notion where people would say the

:46:07.:46:10.

Labour Party are not a patriotic party. We are very proud of our

:46:11.:46:14.

country and proud of singing the national anthem. I am not sure of

:46:15.:46:18.

that is the issue. The issue is, what are the challenges facing this

:46:19.:46:24.

country? We are seeing people living in greater insecurity, the downside

:46:25.:46:29.

of greater globalisation. There is a next wave, and Industrial Revolution

:46:30.:46:35.

based around automation which will create more insecurity. I think if

:46:36.:46:39.

Labour can craft a policy which addresses those issues then we can

:46:40.:46:42.

have an exciting offer in the next general election and we can't win

:46:43.:46:48.

that election. Around the Brexit vote, you were in a Leave

:46:49.:46:52.

constituency and a lot of your voters voted Leave, do you agree

:46:53.:46:59.

immigration is crucial to the vote? Immigration was certainly one of the

:47:00.:47:03.

big issues in that referendum if not the issue. In that case what does

:47:04.:47:08.

that do for voters who hear the leadership saying there should be no

:47:09.:47:15.

upward limit or free movement might have to stay? We have to understand

:47:16.:47:19.

what people tell us and when the negotiations take place we do need

:47:20.:47:23.

to make sure that whatever replaces the freedom of movement arrangement

:47:24.:47:27.

allows us to say we control our borders, we want to be able to count

:47:28.:47:31.

people in and count them out, but also say it is completely

:47:32.:47:35.

unacceptable to leave European workers in uncertainty. We were very

:47:36.:47:38.

disappointed this week when the government did not give certainty

:47:39.:47:41.

that current European workers could stay here. And also extremely

:47:42.:47:46.

disappointed that the child refugees, that pledge which was a

:47:47.:47:50.

pledge by David Cameron, has been breached. I think you have to strike

:47:51.:47:55.

a balance. I know my colleague Diane Abbott who leads on this is in no

:47:56.:47:59.

doubt that unless we have a compelling policy on immigration at

:48:00.:48:02.

the next general election then we will not win. In a sense, one of

:48:03.:48:06.

your colleagues are said to me to reason may get us off this hook

:48:07.:48:09.

because after Brexit we will not have the free movement of people and

:48:10.:48:13.

then we will have a chance to start again and have a socialist

:48:14.:48:14.

immigration policy of our own that we can work through ourselves as the

:48:15.:48:32.

Labour Party and in that context, I want to ask do you think overall

:48:33.:48:34.

immigration in this country is too high or just right? I don't think

:48:35.:48:37.

you can say that. London requires more liberal immigration policies

:48:38.:48:39.

but there are other parts of the countries where immigration may be

:48:40.:48:41.

putting pressure on schools and hospitals. That is why when we come

:48:42.:48:45.

out of the European Union we could have an immigration policy which

:48:46.:48:50.

addresses both of those issues. Perhaps a regional policy? Perhaps

:48:51.:48:55.

indeed. These are nascent ideas. We are not robust to put them in a

:48:56.:48:58.

manifesto yet but there is certainly debate going on in the Labour Party

:48:59.:49:04.

right now and in wider circles. Your leader said after the Brexit vote,

:49:05.:49:09.

the real fight starts now. What does he mean? I agree with him.

:49:10.:49:22.

We have had a nine-month phoney war where the government have been

:49:23.:49:25.

trying to get their act together. What the vote signalled last week

:49:26.:49:28.

was the firing gun on the start of negotiations. Really? Emily

:49:29.:49:30.

Thornberry was here last week and she laid down some great tough old

:49:31.:49:33.

important Labour red lines. Every single one of them were obliterated

:49:34.:49:36.

in the vote. You and others voted with the government. It seems like

:49:37.:49:41.

the Battle is now over? I hope we can convince people that is not the

:49:42.:49:45.

case. We demanded a bill in parliament so we could raise these

:49:46.:49:51.

issues. The idea that we did not want to come out European Union

:49:52.:49:54.

without environmental protection, without human rights. When Theresa

:49:55.:50:00.

May is negotiating Europe we will be on her case day in, day out. She

:50:01.:50:04.

seems to be riding high in the Commons. She had big majorities for

:50:05.:50:10.

the Article 50 Bill. She seems unchallenged and hugely popular in

:50:11.:50:14.

the country. When you say the fight starts here, a lot of people will

:50:15.:50:18.

say where will this fight happen? How will it happen? What will be the

:50:19.:50:23.

crunch moments? It is true we do not have a majority in the House of

:50:24.:50:27.

Commons, otherwise we would be the government! But it is the case we

:50:28.:50:31.

will not keep applying pressure on the government to get a Brexit which

:50:32.:50:41.

benefits British workers. When and how? At the dispatch box, and TV

:50:42.:50:44.

interviews like this and in two years' time Theresa May will have to

:50:45.:50:49.

come back with the deal she has negotiated. There are a lot of

:50:50.:50:52.

people on the other side of the divide who are passionate remainders

:50:53.:50:55.

who are deeply disappointed and they feel the Labour Party who have

:50:56.:51:02.

become cheerleaders and have no way of altering Theresa May's planning?

:51:03.:51:08.

I reject the conclusion. I understand why people who believe in

:51:09.:51:13.

the EU are disappointed but we are a Democratic party. I don't think we

:51:14.:51:17.

had any choice but to respect the decision of the people in that

:51:18.:51:23.

referendum. There were direct democratic decisions which have

:51:24.:51:28.

trumped those of representative democracies. A referendum is a

:51:29.:51:31.

brutal tool, it does not allow you to deal with nuance and complexity

:51:32.:51:37.

after Woods but we have had to respect the decisions of the people

:51:38.:51:40.

to fire the starting gun but that does not mean we will not campaign

:51:41.:51:44.

for issues which we feel very important. When we spoke 18 months

:51:45.:51:49.

ago, you were clear that collective responsibility is important and

:51:50.:51:52.

seems to have collapsed in the Labour Party. All of those people

:51:53.:51:56.

who rebelled will get a stiff letter which will not exactly terrified

:51:57.:52:01.

them. We have had people who have left the Shadow Cabinet over this.

:52:02.:52:08.

Was Clive Lewis right to resign? He was right to resign if he felt he

:52:09.:52:12.

needed to vote against Article 50. I am not sure of his timing was

:52:13.:52:16.

particularly helpful. He could have gone when the others went but that

:52:17.:52:21.

was his decision. I respect the view that he wants to spend the next five

:52:22.:52:24.

years campaigning for his constituency in Norwich and I

:52:25.:52:27.

thought it was also helpful but he has ruled himself out of a

:52:28.:52:31.

leadership bid because there was rampant speculation about that. Tell

:52:32.:52:41.

us about the Jon Trickett story in the Sunday Times, that Labour have

:52:42.:52:43.

been putting potential leadership candidates in front of a focus group

:52:44.:52:49.

to test them out. I only saw this story last night. People tell me it

:52:50.:52:52.

was not the case. It was not road testing leadership candidates, there

:52:53.:52:58.

were a range of Shadow Cabinet members who were so-called road

:52:59.:53:01.

tested. This is what we do in our normal run of parliamentary

:53:02.:53:07.

considerations. I am glad they were not road testing me on the document

:53:08.:53:13.

that was leaked to the paper! Let's have a look at the polling for

:53:14.:53:16.

Jeremy Corbyn because we have to come to the elephant in the room.

:53:17.:53:21.

There is the favourability rating. Theresa May way up there and Jeremy

:53:22.:53:26.

Corbyn down here. On the group most likely to vote over 65, he is now

:53:27.:53:32.

apparently on -100 and 13. Catastrophic rates. Doesn't there

:53:33.:53:36.

come a point when it is your duty in the Labour Party to speak out?

:53:37.:53:42.

Jeremy knows what he has to do to win an election and he will make

:53:43.:53:46.

that decision. But let me say to hear, this is not the time for a

:53:47.:53:52.

leadership election. He got a second mandate from our members last year.

:53:53.:53:57.

He is now the established leader of the Labour Party. It is his duty to

:53:58.:54:01.

lead the official opposition through a period of unprecedented economic

:54:02.:54:04.

uncertainty and he will be tested in that. He has worked like a Trojan,

:54:05.:54:11.

he has worked very hard, he has done everything he can think of doing and

:54:12.:54:14.

it is still not working. How would you explain those figures? He have

:54:15.:54:19.

to explain the figures. He is well aware of them but it is not for me

:54:20.:54:24.

to judge him on a TV show like this, it is for him to make the decision.

:54:25.:54:30.

Do you talk to him every day on this? I talk to him about a whole

:54:31.:54:34.

range of issues and about everything we need to do to win the general

:54:35.:54:42.

election. Do you refer to the depth of the problem? We talk about the

:54:43.:54:49.

issues Labour needs to address. How important is it to the Labour Party

:54:50.:54:54.

to hold Stoke and Copeland? Winning by-elections is obviously a good

:54:55.:54:57.

thing for political parties. I do not know if we will win the

:54:58.:55:02.

by-elections or not but the campaign group on the ground running a

:55:03.:55:07.

campaign. They are quietly confident we will get a good result. Finally

:55:08.:55:12.

and briefly if you make, for the opposition, do you have confidence

:55:13.:55:16.

in John Bercow as the Speaker? And Mac absolutely. He is one of the

:55:17.:55:23.

great Speakers that we have seen. He gives backbenchers their voice and

:55:24.:55:31.

that is what we need. Jeremy Corbyn has said he will not

:55:32.:55:34.

stand down unless there is a decent chance of another left candidate as

:55:35.:55:38.

a leader and that means people want a change in the Labour rules so

:55:39.:55:45.

fewer MPs will nominate bit you want to return to the old system where

:55:46.:55:49.

all parts of the party are involved, explained. I think that is a good

:55:50.:55:53.

starting point but I think we need to get the system of electing the

:55:54.:55:57.

next lead out of the way before we start electing the next leader which

:55:58.:56:00.

is part of the problem we had last September and I don't want to go

:56:01.:56:04.

through that again. Thank you, Tom Watson.

:56:05.:56:06.

Now a look at what's coming up straight after this programme.

:56:07.:56:10.

Join us from Leicester at 10am where we will talk about Israel will stop

:56:11.:56:20.

and is monogamy bad for marriage? See you at ten o'clock.

:56:21.:56:23.

Next week I'll be talking to the actor, Tom Hollander -

:56:24.:56:28.

star of Rev and the Night Manager - about his return to the stage

:56:29.:56:32.

For now, we leave you with Chrissie Hynde and James Wallbourne.

:56:33.:56:36.

From the new Pretenders album, this is Let's Get Lost.

:56:37.:56:40.

# Let's get lost Let's get lost

:56:41.:57:28.

# Let's get lost Let's get lost

:57:29.:58:19.

# Ooh It's irreversible, non-negotiable

:58:20.:59:04.

Before I met you, I was a civilised woman.

:59:05.:59:07.

Joining Andrew are leader of the House of Commons David Lidington, deputy leader of the Labour Party Tom Watson and composer John Adams. Reviewing the papers are Laura Perrins of The Conservative Woman, journalist Rachel Shabi and columnist for The Times David Aaronovitch. Plus music from Chrissie Hynde.