05/02/2017 The Andrew Marr Show


05/02/2017

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The Commons, again this week, is set for a thumping

:00:00.:00:07.

bust-up over Brexit, but many of us have

:00:08.:00:11.

more basic concerns - such as, today, a railway system

:00:12.:00:14.

Is Britain's least popular privatisation coming off the rails?

:00:15.:00:37.

I'm joined by the Transport Secretary and leading Brexit

:00:38.:00:40.

As MPs call for a major rethink in Britain's railway system,

:00:41.:00:46.

we'll be talking, as well, about Commons confrontations over

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Picking up on that, and ahead of another tough week

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for a hopelessly split Opposition, Emily Thornberry Shadow Foreign

:00:53.:00:56.

Plus more bread and butter issues with Britian's

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top cop, the retiring Metropolitian Police Commissioner

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Sir Bernard Hogan Howe - on knife crime, terrorism

:01:06.:01:07.

I'm joined by the BBC's Frank Gardner

:01:08.:01:26.

and his latest brush with the Reaper.

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And reviewing this morning's news UKIP's Deputy Chair Suzanne Evans,

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the former Brussels Bureau Chief, now Political Editor,

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of the Financial Times, George Parker and sparky

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And to play us out one of America's country music stars, Tift Merrit,

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with a song she's written specially about me, Dusty Old Man.

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But first the news with Tina Daheley.

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Train passengers in Britain are being let down because of the way

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the Government oversees the railways, according

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The Commons Transport Committee says customers are less and less

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satisfied with the service they get, and yet they are paying more for it.

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They're calling on the Department for Transport to give

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Dissatisfied passengers, rising ticket prices, poor performance.

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MPs are scathing about the way the Government

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They say passengers have been failed by the way ministers award

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The Commons Committee says competition is meant

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to drive improvements, but it warns there is dwindling

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National Express used to be the biggest train company

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here but is quitting the UK railway entirely.

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The MPs say the Government is too soft on companies that

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break their promises, and there is a call

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for the Department for Transport to give up its enforcement powers

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They have to have a better way of estimating the impact

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of major works on the line, and they should hold the train

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Unless that happens, the taxpayer will be funding

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the bill and the passengers will be suffering.

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The Government acknowledges they can make improvements,

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but points out it is investing more than ?40 billion to deliver faster

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Train companies say under franchising, they have transformed

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the railway into a success story - doubling the number of passengers,

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and creating the safest railway in Europe.

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The US Government has lodged an appeal to try to restore

:03:31.:03:40.

President Trump's travel ban on people from seven

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A judge in Seattle - James Robart - suspended Donald Trump's

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executive order on Friday, ruling that it was

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harmful to businesses and educational institutions.

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But President Trump has denounced the decision, calling Mr Robart

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Major airlines are again allowing citizens from the affected countries

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to board flights to the United States.

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Reports this morning that President Trump's appeal has been denied.

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Some British Airways cabin crew have begun a three day strike

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in a dispute over what they describe as "poverty pay".

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The Unite union estimates the staff earn, on average, ?16,000

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But BA insists none earn less than ?21,000.

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The airline says all its passengers will be able to travel,

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but that the time of flights might be affected.

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The leader of the French National Front, Marine Le Pen,

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will officially launch her Presidential election campaign

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She has promised to re-negotiate the terms of France's membership

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of the European Union, then hold an in-out referendum six

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She would also take France out of the single currency

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The next news on BBC One is at 1 o'clock.

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Lots of different stories in the Sunday papers. Everyone interested

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in the Six Nations, Scotland played wonderfully yesterday. Well done,

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Scotland. The Sunday Telegraph has gone with the Iraqi witchhunt story

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like a dog with a bone. The Mail on Sunday have a story about Nigel

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Farage and a friend of his. I will say no more about that at the

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moment. Some fruity e-mails involving David Beckham and his

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campaign for a knighthood. The Sunday Express has the former

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Archbishop of Canterbury defending Trump and blasting his critics.

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Finally, the Sunday Times, they have a big story on defence procurement

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failures. Pages and pages inside about the failures of our defence

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system, and rugby on the front page. We will start with George Parker

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talking about the Tory revolt on Brexit. You have a story from the

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Mail on Sunday. Yes, May faces revolt over Brexit. Theresa May got

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a huge majority last week in the House of Commons with the second

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reading but is back in the House of Commons week. There will be a big

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bust up. The Mail on Sunday saying basically you will be supporting an

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amendment which basically says Theresa May needs to come back to

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Parliament for Parliamentary consent if she wants to walk away from

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negotiations. It's the end game on this no deal. The PM has been

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absolutely clear, if she gets a deal sure you will bring it back to the

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House of Commons, in fact both chambers, and there will be votes.

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Rightly so. But if there is no deal, the government will determine what

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happens next. I think it should come into Parliament. I don't know why

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people are so fearful of that. This would give Parliament right at the

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end of the process the chance to say, you know what, we don't like

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this to your question on the danger for the Prime Minister is if

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Parliament rejects the deal she has lost all her authority, it is hard

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to go back and plead for another one. That's if we get a deal and the

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PM has been clear she will do that. This is about if there is no deal

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and our fear is if there is no deal but before the two years is up, and

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let's be honest, we won't start these negotiations until the

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conclusion of the French elections and then the German elections. In 18

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months she has to get up bespoke deal on trade, custom security and

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EU citizens. We think that will be very difficult and in the event of

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no deal, we want Parliament to decide what happens next. A lot of

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people will suspect this is an attempt to stay inside the EU by the

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back door. These are these mad conspiracy theories that people have

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to real. Last week, overwhelmingly, members of Parliament like me voted

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for us to leave the European Union. That is the reality. I never said

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anything otherwise. I always said, like all Conservatives, I would

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honour the result. That is what we are doing. We are the only party

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that is united on that. Suzanne Evans, Ukip is very suspicious about

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this process, aren't you? Anna, well done for voting with the government

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last week. The people have voted to me. I'm with Theresa May on this. A

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no deal situation where we revert to WTO trading deals is better than a

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bad deal that would be coming from Brussels. Again, the mail uses this

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phrase, going over a cliff edge. There are so many countries out

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there not in the single market, who don't have a trade deal with the

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European Union but you don't see them thrashing around at the bottom

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of the cliff, gasping for breath to save their lives. Many of them are

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doing incredibly well. No deal is not... You don't speak to British

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business I do, British businesses are increasingly becoming more

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positive. Even the CBI, straightforward remainders, pushed

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for the Remain agenda and coming round to this idea Britain has a

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brighter future outside the EU. That's different to a cliff edge.

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The CBI doesn't want us on a cliff edge. Let me move away from the

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white cliffs, the other part was about immigration and the promise we

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would have control over immigration and the clear implication is it

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would come down a lot. Suzanne, you have a story from yesterday's

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Guardian. Stephen Crabb Tory MP is urging Theresa May to guarantee the

:09:24.:09:30.

status of EU nationals in the UK. I agree with that. Nobody in the Leave

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campaign suggested EU nationals would be in any way affected by

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Brexit. They must have the right to stay here. EU nationals came here in

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good faith, expecting to be able to stay and that is the way it should

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stay. As Ukip's NHS champion I am particularly worried about EU

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workers in the national Health Service, because they are very

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important but already we are seeing some fear. There are fewer nurses

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coming to Britain now since the referendum vote. We have to get this

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sorted now. Theresa May should take the moral high ground and say, yes,

:10:03.:10:07.

you can stay. I think she has said that. No suggestion there is to be

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deportation. Stephen Crabb also says this promise that we are going to

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get rid of immigration, that it will come down, is for the birds. Our

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economy is dependent on immigration and will continue if we are inside

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or outside the EU. Stephen Crabb said students shouldn't be included

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in the migration figures. I was at the seminar yesterday attended by

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hundreds of Chinese students studying at British universities or

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having to go home the moment they finish their degrees. These people

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would be brilliant for the British economy but because they are

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included in the migration figures, they are sent home. We need to be

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honest and have a proper debate. It will be interesting to see when we

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leave the EU if we have fewer, more all the same number of migrants. The

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only way we have less is by trashing our economy. Bringing us further on,

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this is an issue that has divided the Labour Party as well. I think my

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party, we are together, it is only cairn that voted against last week

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and for understandable reasons. My goodness me, what a mess the Labour

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Party is in. -- it was only Ken the voted against. She said happy. We

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are not, we need a good, strong opposition, it's important for

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democracy. Diane Abbott, taken terribly poorly and couldn't vote,

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even though there were people with very serious cancers who did come in

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and vote. We see them, they are all over the place. We should be in no

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doubt whatsoever about these huge fractions within Labour. There are

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about a dozen Labour MPs who defied Jeremy Corbyn last week who are

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waiting out to find if they will be sacked, including Clive Lewis. You

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could have a situation where he is scrabbling around to find someone to

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sit on the Shadow Cabinet. So many Labour MPs see him as a future

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leader. Yes, and many say he might quit as a prelude to some leadership

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bid. We are having a sweepstake in the office. Can we just be clear, in

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the week ahead, what can happen is a whole series of amendments about EU

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citizens that Suzanne was talking about and the vote at the end of the

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process and many more will be put down and then we will see whether

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this piece of legislation is the same as they came into the Commons

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or very different. One of the things people have to

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remember is the bill is what I call a vehicle to deliver the result of

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the referendum. It's not about the contents of it. We will have to see

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which amendments for within scope and there could be very few,

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actually. Now, let's move onto Trump. George, you had a story from

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the Observer, lots of Trump all over the papers today. The papers are

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picking apart the dramatic last few weeks. Just had a suggestion his

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appeal against this judge in Washington state, wanted to stop the

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ban on migrants, has failed. I don't know what stage is out but it looks

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like this is a big confrontation that he seems to be losing. Between

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the president and the so-called judges, as he refers to them. The

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judges are seen by Trump is part of this liberal conspiracy, reflected

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here in the Observer, talking about the pain he feels the fact he is

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checking Twitter in the middle of the night to see what might have

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happened, what the president might tweeted. On the other side there is

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Dan Daniel Davidson who says Trump is doing exactly what he said he was

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going to do, is not a fascist and there are people on the east coast

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and West Coast who just don't get it. Carey said they should come down

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about it all. A huge issue for the British establishment because he

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will be coming here almost certainly in the summer for a big state visit.

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Nigel Farage is about the only big figure in British politics who has

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been a resolute supporter of Trump all the way through. He is on the

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front page for other reasons as well. You have some trouble with

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your man in the Stoke by-election. Can you explain this? Paul Muchall,

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your new leader has a nice house in Stoke with no furniture, a mattress

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on the floor and it seems a bizarre story. -- Paul not all. I think

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labour and Channel 4 have perhaps been medal making. The tenancy

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agreement on this house was signed some weeks ago, but as we all know,

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when we are renting a new house, it can take some time to fully move in.

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As I'm aware, there was furniture in the house. I think Michael looks

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through the letterbox, but what is in our hallways is not indicative...

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He's living there? Yes. How long for? I think last week. He has never

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made, he has never pretended to be local born and bred. Why has he got

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this house then? Because he is on the campaign trail every day.

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George, why is this an important story, is it an important story? It

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is an important story in the sense of his masquerading to be something

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he isn't and has broken any electoral rules... Anyone can report

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something to the police, as you know. Also on the front page of the

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express with Lord Carey. He writes in the express quite a lot.

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Interesting, the former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey was one of

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the more conservative evangelical archbishops we have. He's saying

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today there has been a hysteria over President Trump. I kind of agree

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with him. Talking about the demonstration and we had he said, I

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can't recall such demonstrations against such terrible autocratic

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regimes like Burma, Sudan. It seems to be one of the key characteristics

:15:48.:15:52.

of those who consider themselves progressive to reserve condemnation

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for Israel and the West. He says when it comes to the well's worst

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politician there are several other candidates who could trump Trump.

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This might be because we hold the Americans to higher standard than we

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expect more of them so it's more of a shock when we see this kind of

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thing. I think that's right and I have no

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problem with people criticising Trump, but the talk about him not

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being allowed to come to the country, I think if you have

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problems with somebody the last thing you should do is show of you

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that is not internationalist and meet their standards. He doesn't

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meet MPs, it is a very special occasion which is reserved for

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people who have had great achievements in their leadership. It

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is too early in the leadership for him to be asked. The Royal Gallery

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is the alternative. Westminster Hall in my opinion should be for the

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great leaders and he's not a great leader. Would you go and watch him?

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I'm not sure I would. The thing about Trump is what does he crave

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most, it is attention, he's like a spoiled child. There's a lot to be

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said for not giving him all of this stuff because he loves it. He's the

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sort where really just ignoring can be the best thing. What we shouldn't

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ignore is what he does and what he's done with this executive order, it

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is outrageous and hugely offensive and it has no basis in fact in any

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event. Except it is carrying on from Obama's previous policy. He didn't

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ban. The Sunday Times has done the transport story. The select

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committee produced this report overnight that basically says the

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Department for Transport is not fit for purpose in handling the

:17:57.:18:00.

franchises that then control the British railway system. Can you

:18:01.:18:04.

explain any more about this because it's quite a technical issue. Yes,

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and it's mixed up with the southern rail dispute, and the argument is

:18:10.:18:14.

the Department for Transport cannot cope with the complexity of

:18:15.:18:17.

negotiating these difficult contracts with a whole host of

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private sector companies. Chris Grayling I'm sure will be defending

:18:21.:18:24.

the system in the future. I think there has been a false moustache

:18:25.:18:29.

about how brilliant the railways were in the era before

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privatisation. Since privatisation rail passenger numbers have actually

:18:34.:18:34.

doubled. In a menacing world,

:18:35.:18:40.

no group of people have taken more delight in trying to terrify us

:18:41.:18:44.

than weather forecasters. Now, apparently, we're heading

:18:45.:18:46.

for another very cold spell. Thank goodness I'm not paid to

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please, especially with views like this this morning, misty, murky,

:19:02.:19:06.

foggy and icy start this morning. But the tendency will be where you

:19:07.:19:10.

start that way for things to brighten up. This narrow band of

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rain and snow in the hills edging Northover Scotland. This band of

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rain may head towards London for a time. Temperatures fell close to

:19:24.:19:26.

where they should be at the moment for this time review. Any rain will

:19:27.:19:31.

actually clear away to leave dry night and a widespread frost

:19:32.:19:34.

developing. Some rural spots in the morning could be down to minus five

:19:35.:19:39.

and with good season freezing fog patches so it could be a slow start

:19:40.:19:46.

to our journeys tomorrow morning. The cloud and fog will clear away,

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and there will be outbreaks of rain moving in, gale is developing in

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some spots. May get to ten in Plymouth, but a cold feel for many

:19:57.:20:02.

of us. It will turn colder in an easterly wind especially at the end

:20:03.:20:06.

of the week, and on that wind there could be snow flurries or snow

:20:07.:20:11.

showers heading our way. Winter hasn't finished with us yet.

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It just goes off and on, doesn't it? We've been seeing this week

:20:15.:20:18.

the first signs of canvassers stumbling around the by-election

:20:19.:20:21.

centres of Stoke and Copeland. That's where Labour will hear

:20:22.:20:23.

a meaningful verdict The Shadow Foreign Secretary,

:20:24.:20:25.

Emily Thornberry, joins me. 47 Labour MPs including ten

:20:26.:20:32.

frontbenchers voted against the whip or didn't support the whip this

:20:33.:20:38.

week, where they right to do so? I know your narrative is, as you said

:20:39.:20:42.

at the top of the programme, that we are hopelessly divided and I don't

:20:43.:20:47.

think that is fair. The Labour Party is a national party and we represent

:20:48.:20:50.

the nation and the nation is divided on this and it's very difficult, and

:20:51.:20:57.

many MPs representing majority Remain constituencies have this

:20:58.:21:00.

balancing act between representing the constituency and representing

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the nation. Labour as a national party have a clear view. We have

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been given or instructions, we lost a referendum, we fought to stay in

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Europe but the public have spoken so we do as we are told, but the

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important thing now is not to give Theresa May a blank check, we have

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got to get the right deal for the country. I want to come onto that

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but it sounds like you are saying you understand the motives of Labour

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MPs who voted with their conscience against triggering Article 50.

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Should be therefore perhaps not be disciplined? Given that the country

:21:35.:21:37.

is split and they are standing with their constituents, as is their

:21:38.:21:41.

right and some would say their duty? It is not my job to work out what

:21:42.:21:46.

should happen. I understand completely, and my constituents

:21:47.:21:49.

voted overwhelmingly to remain in the UK but I am a national

:21:50.:21:53.

politician, Labour is a national party and we offer some hope. You

:21:54.:21:57.

say we are hopelessly divided, I say we offer some hope in the way in

:21:58.:22:02.

which we thought work our way through this so that we bring the

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country with us and that has to be on the basis of making sure we have

:22:06.:22:09.

a number of guarantees from Theresa May and we make sure we have a

:22:10.:22:13.

number of achievements. So making sure we have proper access to the

:22:14.:22:18.

single market. Just on whether you are split or not, it sounds like on

:22:19.:22:21.

this issue collective responsibility has to be put to one side because of

:22:22.:22:26.

the nature of the split in the country. No, the Labour Party 's

:22:27.:22:30.

national party and we have a nationally and collectively agreed

:22:31.:22:33.

position on this and that is what we will do. We will not frustrate

:22:34.:22:38.

Brexit, we need to get the best deal. That's come onto the Shadow

:22:39.:22:42.

Home Secretary, have you spoken to Diane Abbott since she didn't vote?

:22:43.:22:58.

No, I haven't. A lot of people in the Labour Party are furious about

:22:59.:23:00.

this. She might have had a migraine, but we have one MP coming hundreds

:23:01.:23:03.

of miles with cancer, putting himself through the mill to get

:23:04.:23:05.

there. She could have stayed in the House of Commons and been counted

:23:06.:23:08.

in. Can you understand why some of your colleagues are so cross with

:23:09.:23:11.

her? I don't know the details about this, all I know is she was ill.

:23:12.:23:16.

That is all I can say. Can we go through some of the Labour

:23:17.:23:22.

amendments, first of all... And this is the opposition doing its job,

:23:23.:23:25.

holding the Government to account and making sure the Government does

:23:26.:23:29.

the right thing. Guaranteeing rights for EU nationals living in the UK,

:23:30.:23:33.

there is an amendment specifically about that, but there is no

:23:34.:23:37.

suggestion really the Government are going to deport foreign nationals

:23:38.:23:41.

are things go wrong in the talks. Why is this such an important

:23:42.:23:47.

amendment? I have had people coming to my surgeries in tears. I had a

:23:48.:23:51.

meeting of 200 French nationals coming to see me and saying... Not

:23:52.:23:56.

from my constituency, but saying they are extremely concerned about

:23:57.:24:00.

the future. They have fallen in love with this country, with someone from

:24:01.:24:04.

this country, they have put their life down here and they have got to

:24:05.:24:08.

have their life on hold for a number of years while Theresa May sorts it

:24:09.:24:13.

out. It is a basic humanity question. Yes, but also it is right

:24:14.:24:19.

at this stage to make a gesture. We are falling out with our European

:24:20.:24:24.

neighbours in a way that is not good at the start of these negotiations.

:24:25.:24:28.

She should be sorting this out unilaterally on behalf of people

:24:29.:24:33.

living in my constituency. Moving on to securing workers' rights and Tory

:24:34.:24:38.

free access to the single market, do you think that is doable? In

:24:39.:24:43.

negotiations we have to have at the forefront of our mind making sure we

:24:44.:24:46.

look after the economy first and foremost. Our biggest trading

:24:47.:24:50.

neighbour is Europe so getting as good a deal in terms of being close

:24:51.:24:55.

to the single market, so that does mean... She has said she will be

:24:56.:24:59.

able to get tariff free access to the single market, we are just

:25:00.:25:03.

holding her to that. And it is crucial for the Labour Party get the

:25:04.:25:07.

vote at the end of the process, not simply on the deal but deal or no

:25:08.:25:11.

deal, whatever happens the Commons will be involved in a proper,

:25:12.:25:15.

meaningful vote at the end of the process. Yes, and it's also about

:25:16.:25:22.

engaging Parliament through the process. We represent the country,

:25:23.:25:28.

so it is not good enough for her to just go off and say goodbye, I will

:25:29.:25:33.

sort something out, trust me. No, we don't trust you, we want to hold you

:25:34.:25:40.

to account. She has said one of her options is to break the British

:25:41.:25:44.

economic model. She has said that's one thing she would be prepared to

:25:45.:25:50.

do. Are these red lines for you? Yes, we need to make sure that

:25:51.:25:54.

throughout the negotiations we are ensuring these things happen.

:25:55.:25:59.

Without this, for you, for the Labour Party, this is a catastrophic

:26:00.:26:05.

process? No, the difficulty with the negotiation is it is about give and

:26:06.:26:09.

take, it will be a process happening over the next two years. So my

:26:10.:26:14.

question is very clear, if you don't get what you achieve, do you vote in

:26:15.:26:21.

favour of Article 50 anyway? Because it is totally illogical if you do.

:26:22.:26:25.

Now it is not. There will be negotiations happening in the next

:26:26.:26:29.

week. There are many ways in which the Government may be able to react

:26:30.:26:33.

to this that will be positive. For example on one of the amendments we

:26:34.:26:37.

have put down, they may say we are not going to support this amendment

:26:38.:26:41.

but during a speech we can give an assurance, we can speak in back

:26:42.:26:46.

channels, we can say we will not go off the rails in relation to

:26:47.:26:51.

workers' rights. So the public must take for granted private

:26:52.:26:54.

conversation between you and ministers and assume that's what's

:26:55.:26:57.

going to happen even if you don't win votes? Personally I think it is

:26:58.:27:02.

much better for them to be saying it on the record and saying it so we

:27:03.:27:06.

know what they are committing themselves to so we can hold them to

:27:07.:27:15.

account, but they will need to have private conversations, there will

:27:16.:27:18.

need to be back channels. We are speaking to Tory backbenchers and

:27:19.:27:21.

trying to get a compromise together that will work. Taking the position

:27:22.:27:28.

of someone like Clive Lewis, in the Labour Party, he voted for Article

:27:29.:27:33.

50 in the first vote but he says look, we have these very important

:27:34.:27:36.

amendments, we need to change this legislation, change it for workers'

:27:37.:27:41.

rights, tariff free access to the EU and the rest of it, and if we don't

:27:42.:27:45.

get those I will vote against it. That is a totally logical position,

:27:46.:27:49.

what's wrong with that? What's wrong with it is we have said we will not

:27:50.:27:54.

frustrate wrecks it. We are struggling and fighting to make sure

:27:55.:27:57.

we get the best possible deal and we are doing that by holding the

:27:58.:28:01.

Government to account, but we are Democrats and the public have voted

:28:02.:28:06.

for us to leave the European Union. We have to make sure she does the

:28:07.:28:11.

right thing and is in Europe. And you cannot stay on the front bench

:28:12.:28:14.

if you don't accept that so presumably Diane Abbott must vote

:28:15.:28:20.

with the whip to keep her job next week? We are in a state of

:28:21.:28:24.

negotiations. I cannot sit here and tell you which of the amendments

:28:25.:28:27.

will be put before Parliament, which ones will be voted through, where

:28:28.:28:33.

the negotiations will get us, but I can tell you the direction of travel

:28:34.:28:37.

of the Labour Party, which is a clear direction. At the end of the

:28:38.:28:43.

process, whatever happens to those amendments, you are going to vote in

:28:44.:28:47.

favour of Article 50 even if you have lost on every single issue? And

:28:48.:28:52.

you are insisting someone might Diane Abbott must vote with you? It

:28:53.:28:58.

is a fast moving picture, let's see what happens. I have said a number

:28:59.:29:01.

of times what our principles are and how we are trying to get them.

:29:02.:29:06.

Unfortunately we are not the Government, we are doing our utmost

:29:07.:29:11.

to the Government to account as an opposition. But at least you can

:29:12.:29:14.

save Diane Abbott must vote with the whip to keep position as Shadow Home

:29:15.:29:20.

Secretary next week. The whip will be decided next week, let's see what

:29:21.:29:23.

happens in relation to the amendments. It will be for the Chief

:29:24.:29:27.

Whip and the leader to decide what the whip is on various amendments,

:29:28.:29:31.

which amendments we are pushing, which we are not and what the final

:29:32.:29:36.

vote will be. Most important, the public are more interested, I think,

:29:37.:29:43.

on Will we frustrate Brexit? No, we won't. Will would be fighting for

:29:44.:29:49.

the best deal? Yes, we will. But not very successfully if you don't have

:29:50.:29:54.

real leverage or red lines, you will vote for it come what may. Look at

:29:55.:30:00.

the successes we have already had, she didn't want to have a vote

:30:01.:30:04.

before Parliament at all or White Paper. That was the courts, not the

:30:05.:30:13.

Labour Party. The White Paper was us demanding it and campaigning for it.

:30:14.:30:16.

They didn't even want to put in black and white... We are in a

:30:17.:30:22.

minority, we are the opposition so we have to do it through

:30:23.:30:25.

negotiations with opposition MPs too, that's the difficulty we are

:30:26.:30:29.

in. We cannot demand something and get it, we have to work with others

:30:30.:30:34.

and campaign for it, and slowly, slowly we are achieving the things

:30:35.:30:37.

we need. We cannot deliver it straightaway. We will keep watching

:30:38.:30:43.

very carefully. For now, thank you very much indeed.

:30:44.:30:45.

In 2004, while reporting overseas, the BBC's Frank Gardner was shot

:30:46.:30:47.

by Al-Qaeda terrorists and gravely wounded.

:30:48.:30:49.

Frank's been using a wheelchair ever since.

:30:50.:30:50.

So, how would he fulfil his childhood dream of penetrating one

:30:51.:30:54.

of the most remote places on the planet to see those magical

:30:55.:30:56.

Well, he did it, but risked his life in the process.

:30:57.:31:01.

Let's have a look at one of the edgier moments of his trek.

:31:02.:31:15.

My life-changing injuries remind me just how vulnerable my body is.

:31:16.:31:20.

I've been incredibly lucky to be back to

:31:21.:31:23.

the state that I'm in, but I'm not invincible, you know.

:31:24.:31:26.

Sooner you found me, Frank. You could have breezed through it,

:31:27.:31:54.

Andrew! You were basically be carried

:31:55.:31:59.

through by bearers in the old-fashioned way, how uncomfortable

:32:00.:32:04.

with that? Very uncomfortable, but far more uncomfortable for them. I

:32:05.:32:09.

insisted they had padding. They were as strong as oxen. Really tough,

:32:10.:32:13.

resilient and good-natured. I had to trust them completely, because there

:32:14.:32:18.

was a kind of relay, as we went through different tribal

:32:19.:32:21.

territories, one plan were turned over to others they'd have to be,

:32:22.:32:25.

they'd have to learn all over again about how to carry me. I had to

:32:26.:32:36.

trust them completely, because they missed their footing or slept, you

:32:37.:32:39.

could see how steep it was. But yeah, you can sit there, there's a

:32:40.:32:42.

slight kind of, as you say, air of the Victorian explorer. Obviously

:32:43.:32:46.

it's not how I would like to travel, but if that's the only way I can see

:32:47.:32:50.

the Birds of Paradise, so be it. Where did this obsession come from?

:32:51.:32:55.

From when I was about eight years old, I had a set of playing cards

:32:56.:32:59.

with Birds of Paradise on the back. My father was playing Schumann on

:33:00.:33:04.

the piano and I associated that, the music... I thought, I would love to

:33:05.:33:07.

go and see these. It's been a lifelong quest of mine. When

:33:08.:33:28.

I got shot and I was in hospital for several months, I thought, I've

:33:29.:33:32.

missed it, I left it too late. Then I met Benedict Allen, and explorer,

:33:33.:33:35.

who said I'm your man, I can take you there. He had had a relationship

:33:36.:33:37.

with this particular tribe going way back? He lived with them for six

:33:38.:33:40.

months and when so much further than most travellers or adventurers or

:33:41.:33:42.

backpackers do. He underwent this horrendous rituals scarring that

:33:43.:33:44.

they do. Nearly 200 cuts with a sharp bamboo blade, blood pouring

:33:45.:33:47.

off him, to become one of them. This was going back to the tribe you to

:33:48.:33:51.

live with. Back to his new family, in a sense. What happened to you,

:33:52.:33:57.

you got sepsis... Not quite, sepsis is really serious. Basically, what

:33:58.:34:03.

you saw there was me being covered over -- carried over pretty tough

:34:04.:34:08.

terrain. It chafed away my backside. I got weakened muscles. It meant I

:34:09.:34:20.

woke up with this jungle sore, the medic looked at it and that it was

:34:21.:34:24.

quite serious. They flashed the picture to the medics in New

:34:25.:34:28.

Zealand, they said, get him out now, if he gets sepsis, will only have 48

:34:29.:34:30.

hours. Let's have a glimpse of that. It's a big wound and that's just

:34:31.:34:39.

a conduit for infection. We're not going to get up

:34:40.:34:45.

to the mountains at all, all because of this bloody pressure

:34:46.:34:57.

sore that I've got. God, you know, I hate the way

:34:58.:35:01.

the sort of curse of my injuries And yet not quite because he got

:35:02.:35:14.

back there in the end. I think we will see the second half next week.

:35:15.:35:18.

Yes, Friday on BBC Two. Thank you. At the end of this month,

:35:19.:35:23.

Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe will step down as Commissioner

:35:24.:35:25.

of the Metropolitan Police after a tumultuous period leading

:35:26.:35:27.

Britain's biggest force. His supporters say he's done

:35:28.:35:29.

a sterling job keeping the capital safe, so why,

:35:30.:35:31.

as he leaves, is he so worried that Welcome. You used the phrase red

:35:32.:35:45.

lights were flashing on the dashboard and crime was rising, what

:35:46.:35:51.

crime and why? Morning. We have had a succession of years where crime

:35:52.:35:55.

has come down. In London we have seen a reduction in crime of nearly

:35:56.:36:00.

a fifth. Over the last 9-12 months we've seen it change around the

:36:01.:36:06.

country. Why is it going up? Things like cybercrime, frankly there is

:36:07.:36:10.

more of it. We are seeing more violence reported, to be fair some

:36:11.:36:14.

of that is about better recording by the police. And we have seen more

:36:15.:36:18.

sexual offences from the past reported, things that have happened

:36:19.:36:22.

in the past that people didn't feel confident to report and have now.

:36:23.:36:26.

We've also seen things like knife crime rise. This can be quite

:36:27.:36:31.

worrying, obviously, people want to see crime fall. You said you and the

:36:32.:36:34.

Mayor of London are worried you won't have the money to put enough

:36:35.:36:36.

police on the streets of the capital and

:36:37.:36:49.

presumably elsewhere. Every single Tory party conference, I listened to

:36:50.:36:51.

speeches by ministers saying don't worry, there will be more bobbies on

:36:52.:36:53.

the beat and the Conservatives, what's gone wrong? I suppose the big

:36:54.:36:56.

thing is there's not enough money. After 2008 public spending went

:36:57.:36:58.

down. Across the UK, the number of cops has come down from 147,000 to

:36:59.:37:06.

120,000. We have maintained our numbers. But in the future... I

:37:07.:37:11.

think it will be very hard because the money is still tight. The

:37:12.:37:17.

demands are getting higher, pay increases and various other things.

:37:18.:37:24.

And the likelihood is by 2020, less public spending, another ?3 billion

:37:25.:37:27.

to come. We've seen some rises in crime and we are seeing the number,

:37:28.:37:32.

the amount of money available to the police is reducing. Put it bluntly,

:37:33.:37:35.

fewer police on the streets of London and higher crime in the

:37:36.:37:41.

future? It's a risk, I can't say it will happen... This city is getting

:37:42.:37:47.

bigger, 9 million people, and it's getting younger. The north-east of

:37:48.:37:53.

England, more young men around. I'm not defeated by nature, I don't

:37:54.:37:56.

think just because there is less money you have to fail. All I am

:37:57.:38:01.

highlighting, to be fair to my successors, is it will be a more

:38:02.:38:04.

challenging environment. We've done a lot in the last five years to make

:38:05.:38:08.

the Metropolitan Police more efficient and modern. We've taken

:38:09.:38:11.

out a lot of things from the past that were inefficient and kept our

:38:12.:38:16.

32,000 courts. Less buildings, less managers, but we have lost about

:38:17.:38:26.

4500 support staff. You have to do these things on their arm or hard

:38:27.:38:29.

decisions to come. What are the hardest decisions still to come? The

:38:30.:38:32.

main one is how do you find more savings question what you can only

:38:33.:38:34.

make so many efficiencies. 70% of our costs are down to people, so you

:38:35.:38:38.

have to look in that area, where we have already made savings, and we

:38:39.:38:43.

have outsourced quite a lot commercial entities. As you head for

:38:44.:38:48.

a happy retirement, is your final message to Amber Rudd and the Prime

:38:49.:38:50.

Minister, think again on the money? I hope, I'm sure what the government

:38:51.:38:56.

will do... We've had lots of support from this Prime Minister when she

:38:57.:39:00.

was Home Secretary. They have always been supportive of the police and

:39:01.:39:03.

tried our best -- their best to keep this in a good place. It is my job

:39:04.:39:07.

as one of the top police officers in the country to say this is something

:39:08.:39:16.

you have to continue to invest in. 12- ?13 billion of spend, you

:39:17.:39:18.

compare it to the health service and military, they are far bigger

:39:19.:39:23.

spenders. A relatively small amount. I can only make my case the cops. If

:39:24.:39:27.

you don't have them, you have a problem. We are a hygiene factor,

:39:28.:39:32.

you have to invest. As I leave I hope the legacy is a good one but

:39:33.:39:37.

one that continues to needed to be invested in. On your watch apart

:39:38.:39:41.

from the terrible killing of Lee Rigby, it's been relatively quiet on

:39:42.:39:45.

the terrorism front. What is your message to people watching? Still a

:39:46.:39:49.

severe level of threat officially. How worried are you? We should be

:39:50.:39:54.

proud of what we have achieved so far. Western Europe, France, Belgium

:39:55.:39:58.

and Germany, we have seen terrorist attacks get through. If you think

:39:59.:40:03.

about what happened in November 20 15th in Paris, 200 badly injured,

:40:04.:40:06.

this is what it looks like if they get through. What you have to get is

:40:07.:40:11.

an excellent security service, which we have, and I would argue the best

:40:12.:40:15.

of the world partnership between the security service and police. You

:40:16.:40:20.

work a lot more closely with MI5 than you used to? Yes. We also have

:40:21.:40:27.

networks across the country which is fantastic, the Metropolitan Police

:40:28.:40:30.

leads that network and that gives you links into our communities. That

:40:31.:40:33.

means people tell us stuff. The Nexis to link with the security

:40:34.:40:39.

service, the links with a broad and the combined power of that is

:40:40.:40:46.

immense. The best in the world. What did you feel what did you think when

:40:47.:40:52.

you saw the Prime Minister put security cooperation, intelligence

:40:53.:40:55.

cooperation on the table, as part of Brexit negotiation? I think the

:40:56.:41:00.

political decision to leave Europe is not for me. What I believe will

:41:01.:41:05.

happen in the future is it will be neutral effect, really, on security

:41:06.:41:08.

cooperation. I genuinely think Europe and the rest of the world

:41:09.:41:12.

needs the support of the security services in the UK. There is more of

:41:13.:41:15.

a joint benefit in sharing information with French and Belgians

:41:16.:41:20.

and no one wants our terrorists to go there or there is to come here.

:41:21.:41:23.

Nobody will sit on their laurels and say, I tell you what, we're not

:41:24.:41:27.

going to share data. We will share intelligence and we will keep people

:41:28.:41:32.

safe. So it should already be part of these negotiations, on the table

:41:33.:41:37.

as a counter to be moved around? That is a political decision. My

:41:38.:41:40.

only point is I think in the future I'm confident the arrangements that

:41:41.:41:44.

are put in place will keep us safe, as with Europe. It is fine for both

:41:45.:41:50.

parties to do that. It is vital that anyone travelling between us doesn't

:41:51.:41:53.

think they will have a safe haven on either side of the border. We will

:41:54.:41:57.

make that work. We have in the past before Europe, we have during Europe

:41:58.:42:02.

and I'm sure we will in future. When the Prime Minister was Home

:42:03.:42:04.

Secretary she made you rein back on stop and search. What happened to

:42:05.:42:08.

knife crime as a result? Not quite right chronologically. I

:42:09.:42:12.

started to reduce stop and search before anyone asked for it. When I

:42:13.:42:16.

arrived in 2011 there was a period of instability. We had riots in the

:42:17.:42:22.

city. When I looked at it, one of the things that concerned me was the

:42:23.:42:25.

high rate of stop and search. We were stopped searching about 1.3

:42:26.:42:29.

million. I said we would reduce it and get better at it and we did. And

:42:30.:42:33.

what has happened to knife crime? Initially it came down. It now gone

:42:34.:42:38.

up again? Let me make my point little. We have reduce stop and

:42:39.:42:42.

search by about 70% and reduced complaints it. For the first four

:42:43.:42:48.

years we not only reduce the amount of stop and search, we saw that we

:42:49.:42:52.

arrested more people, so becoming more effective at and we saw knife

:42:53.:42:56.

crime dropped. It is only in the last year we have seen this change.

:42:57.:42:59.

We've started to increase stop and search in a smart way, where the

:43:00.:43:03.

problems up and started to get on top of some of these problems. If

:43:04.:43:06.

you think stop and search is a good thing, you have to do it. But I

:43:07.:43:11.

honestly think in 2011 we did it too much, we have reduced and I think we

:43:12.:43:18.

have achieved a good outcome. Now we have just seen we need to tweak it

:43:19.:43:21.

again. A little bit more. It's a heck of a job. What is your

:43:22.:43:24.

reflection on the qualities needed by your successor? You have to deal

:43:25.:43:27.

with American London, the Home Secretary, the Prime Minister, the

:43:28.:43:32.

national media. -- the American London. If you are putting on paper

:43:33.:43:35.

at the top qualities needed for your successor, what would it be? You

:43:36.:43:39.

have to enjoy it, you have to want to do this job as a cop. I'm a

:43:40.:43:43.

policeman. I will leave being a policeman and I will regret not

:43:44.:43:47.

being a policeman. Your heart and location has to beat police officer.

:43:48.:43:51.

You want to stop crime, arrest offenders. You have to think about

:43:52.:43:55.

how to use resources wisely. I hope we have been efficient in the way we

:43:56.:44:06.

have used our resources. You have to work with people Big Show whichever

:44:07.:44:08.

political party, I don't care which party they are from. I have a duty

:44:09.:44:11.

to work with that elected party and make it work. You have to be

:44:12.:44:14.

flexible. This city is moving around us at a rate we've never seen. A

:44:15.:44:17.

million people have arrived in the last ten years. You have to be

:44:18.:44:20.

flexible. One final question, any big regrets? The operation Midland

:44:21.:44:25.

issue must hangover you a bit? Of course there are occasions when I

:44:26.:44:28.

wish we'd done better. That is one of them? It is. I've apologise, is

:44:29.:44:34.

that I regret it and apologise to the individuals as well. In my time

:44:35.:44:38.

of five and a half years we've investigated about 5 million crimes,

:44:39.:44:41.

probably about 20 million phone calls. We do get it wrong sometimes.

:44:42.:44:46.

I use this analogy, and I hope you're not a librarian, if

:44:47.:44:51.

librarians get it wrong the books are in the wrong order, when we get

:44:52.:44:54.

it wrong it really matters. I am glad we are disappointed

:44:55.:44:58.

collectively when the British police get it wrong because we have high

:44:59.:45:02.

standards. People all over the world will capitalise on the reason is we

:45:03.:45:06.

act reasonably and professionally. One of the few forces that can

:45:07.:45:09.

patrol the city but this without a gun and that is because we have the

:45:10.:45:14.

support of the public. 32,000 cops cannot dominate a point a billion

:45:15.:45:18.

people and nor should they. We should be proud of British police

:45:19.:45:21.

and I am proud of it. The Bernard Hogan-Howe, thank you for talking to

:45:22.:45:22.

us today. Coming up later this morning,

:45:23.:45:25.

Andrew Neil will be talking to the Housing Minister Gavin Barwell

:45:26.:45:28.

about his plans to increase the number of affordable

:45:29.:45:30.

homes being built. And Ellie Price reports

:45:31.:45:32.

on the haggling to come over That's the Sunday Politics

:45:33.:45:34.

at 11am, here on BBC One. The Sunday Times this morning

:45:35.:45:39.

describes it as a "savaging". Essentially, MPs have concluded

:45:40.:45:42.

that the Department for Transport can't properly run the privatised

:45:43.:45:45.

rail system so many Britons rely on. And this comes after months of utter

:45:46.:45:54.

misery for Southern rail commuters. Another, the RMT, most

:45:55.:45:57.

emphatically has not. Chris Grayling, the man

:45:58.:46:00.

in the hot seat, joins me now. This is a very important report by

:46:01.:46:14.

MPs and they have concluded that the transport department is not fit for

:46:15.:46:19.

purpose when it comes to the rail system. Are you going to look again

:46:20.:46:23.

at the way you handle franchises? Let's be clear what the problem is,

:46:24.:46:28.

they are bursting at the seams, the number of passengers has doubled,

:46:29.:46:34.

trains are full. That's a big challenge we have got to address. I

:46:35.:46:38.

agree with a lot of what's in the report, it doesn't quite paint the

:46:39.:46:42.

picture you have just done, it made sensible recommendations about how

:46:43.:46:46.

to improve things, many of which I'm already doing. They say there is not

:46:47.:46:50.

enough coordination between rail and the infrastructure operator, the

:46:51.:46:53.

truck operator and the train companies. I agree with that, before

:46:54.:46:59.

Christmas I set out plans to reunite track and trained step-by-step. And

:47:00.:47:06.

they make a number of sensible suggestions, some of which I'm

:47:07.:47:12.

doing. They say there have been recent circumstances which are

:47:13.:47:14.

franchised operator might have been exposed to substantial risk... A

:47:15.:47:23.

substantial degree of risk but the department chose to insulated. The

:47:24.:47:28.

risk remains with the taxpayer. If you look at what has happened, and

:47:29.:47:37.

you are talking about southern rail. The operator is effectively a

:47:38.:47:40.

management contract rather than exposed to financial risk and the

:47:41.:47:43.

reason for that is we are currently putting a large amount of money into

:47:44.:47:47.

modernising London Bridge station. It's meant a huge amount of

:47:48.:47:51.

disruption over the last few years and the judgment of the department

:47:52.:47:54.

at the time was that the price we would pay to allow the private

:47:55.:47:57.

sector to carry the risk of disruption as a result of those

:47:58.:48:01.

works was greater than they wished to pay... Sorry, to a lot of people

:48:02.:48:12.

watching this must seem bonkers. The private company gets the prophets

:48:13.:48:15.

and the taxpayer takes the risk and the result has been catastrophic. It

:48:16.:48:17.

is an exceptional circumstance because of the scale of

:48:18.:48:21.

modernisation on the Thames Link programme, the biggest

:48:22.:48:23.

infrastructure investment in our mainline railways for a long time.

:48:24.:48:30.

Everywhere else on the railway people take financial risk, this was

:48:31.:48:34.

a special case. Can at least we say this kind of contract will never be

:48:35.:48:41.

done again? It's interesting because some, like the Mayor of London, are

:48:42.:48:45.

saying that is precisely what we should be doing. I want to see the

:48:46.:48:49.

private sector much more involved in the infrastructure in the future.

:48:50.:48:54.

People don't understand why someone once the tracks and someone runs the

:48:55.:48:58.

trains. They want one team running the railways, planning for the

:48:59.:49:02.

future, and making sure there is one team dealing with problems when they

:49:03.:49:13.

happen. Because the taxpayer was still paying, they still got their

:49:14.:49:17.

profit which removed pressure on them during the strike some people

:49:18.:49:24.

believe you wanted Southern Rail to break the union is because you were

:49:25.:49:28.

going to spread the system right across the UK. No, it was done

:49:29.:49:31.

because of the London Bridge investment. If you had seen the

:49:32.:49:35.

management team at work in the last few months nobody would believe they

:49:36.:49:38.

wanted this to happen and indeed the company has been taking a huge hit

:49:39.:49:44.

reputation lay in the last few months because of the strike action

:49:45.:49:48.

so I don't think you could say anybody wanted this. In the last

:49:49.:49:53.

week, they reached agreement in the Aslef dispute and I very much hope

:49:54.:49:58.

now the other union, RMT, will come back to the table and sort out an

:49:59.:50:02.

arrangement that looks after its own members. My commitment to them and

:50:03.:50:06.

everyone involved in this railway, I don't believe we need fewer people

:50:07.:50:10.

on the railways. They may do slightly different jobs, but a

:50:11.:50:13.

railway of its bursting at the seams in my view needs staffing. So

:50:14.:50:28.

particularly on long-distance trains you need a guard as well. I travel a

:50:29.:50:33.

lot on trains and you see disabled people, you see people struggling

:50:34.:50:36.

and they need someone from the railway system who is not driving

:50:37.:50:39.

the train to help them, you would agree with that? I am absolutely of

:50:40.:50:44.

the view that we will need as many staff in the future providing

:50:45.:50:47.

support to the customers as we have today. Their jobs may change, the

:50:48.:50:54.

technology may change, but the customer service cannot change.

:50:55.:50:58.

Another issue is HS2. Lord MacPherson said he thinks it is

:50:59.:51:03.

running wildly over budget, it is simply too expensive. ?90 billion

:51:04.:51:06.

could be spent much more effectively on other parts of the railway system

:51:07.:51:12.

or the road system, isn't he right? We have a rail system that is

:51:13.:51:16.

bursting at the seams, we have to take a decision about what we want

:51:17.:51:20.

for the future. Do we want a rail system that can carry more

:51:21.:51:26.

passengers? HS2 is all about that. It will mean thousands more commuter

:51:27.:51:32.

seeds into Euston station in a peak day morning rush-hour. The same is

:51:33.:51:40.

true in Birmingham, Leeds and Manchester. It's about creating

:51:41.:51:44.

extra capacity. We cannot deliver a rail that is fit for the future

:51:45.:51:49.

without extra capacity, and if you are going to build a railway line,

:51:50.:51:55.

why wouldn't you build a state-of-the-art one? Because a lot

:51:56.:51:58.

of people say it is already out of date. Let me ask about London

:51:59.:52:03.

particular. What hope can you give to people in north London who are

:52:04.:52:06.

terrified about the amount of pollution and disruption that will

:52:07.:52:10.

be caused for 20 years? Bits of Camden will be wiped off the map. We

:52:11.:52:16.

are currently working through a plan that I think will ease that impact.

:52:17.:52:21.

I want to keep the impact of construction of HS2 as low as

:52:22.:52:25.

possible to all communities affected up and down the route. You cannot

:52:26.:52:28.

build something of this scale without any impact but we will do

:52:29.:52:33.

what we can to minimise it. I want to ask, not long ago we were told

:52:34.:52:38.

the way forward was diesel cars, now we know more about the particulates

:52:39.:52:42.

put out by diesel cars and that they are seriously affecting the health

:52:43.:52:45.

of a lot of people and we want to get rid of diesel cars. There is

:52:46.:52:52.

some talk of a scrappage scheme, can you tell us anything about that? The

:52:53.:52:58.

reality is we need to address the problem, there is a public health

:52:59.:53:02.

issue. We started with diesel cars because we thought they would

:53:03.:53:07.

produce carbon emissions, we now realise there is a knock-on effect.

:53:08.:53:15.

The way we react cannot happen overnight but we have to work quite

:53:16.:53:20.

quickly. There's a number of options we are looking at. Andrea Leadsom is

:53:21.:53:25.

working through an air quality strategy which will be published in

:53:26.:53:29.

due course, but we recognise we have to do this. We recognise we need

:53:30.:53:33.

cleaner air in our cities and it is not something we can ignore. There

:53:34.:53:38.

is so much talk about on Brexit, I want to pick particular issue. Isn't

:53:39.:53:44.

it right that the end of this process, no matter what happens,

:53:45.:53:47.

whether we get a deal or not, the House of Commons, which is supposed

:53:48.:53:52.

to be sovereign, gets a proper vote? Theresa May has already promised

:53:53.:53:55.

there will be a vote at the end of it but the legal position is that if

:53:56.:53:59.

there is not a deal then we leave so the reality is we are going to go

:54:00.:54:04.

into negotiation with a view to delivering, negotiating a deal that

:54:05.:54:10.

is good for everyone. If there isn't a deal, shouldn't there be a vote

:54:11.:54:13.

about what happens next? It is a vast issue for the entire country,

:54:14.:54:18.

it will affect everyone in this country at that moment. The House of

:54:19.:54:23.

Commons should have a proper say on that, surely? The House of Commons

:54:24.:54:27.

voted for a referendum, we had a referendum, the people of the

:54:28.:54:33.

country gave's of view, we are following that through, we go into

:54:34.:54:38.

the negotiations with the full expectation that a sensible deal

:54:39.:54:41.

will be agreed which works for both sides. We are their biggest

:54:42.:54:46.

customer, I am confident Theresa May will deliver a good deal. But if

:54:47.:54:51.

that doesn't happen, Parliamentary sovereignty hasn't been suspended

:54:52.:54:55.

because of the Brexit referendum, it still matters, surely Parliament

:54:56.:54:58.

should get a vote come what may at the end of this process? Theresa May

:54:59.:55:03.

is committed to having a vote on that deal? If there is a deal? I'm

:55:04.:55:11.

confident we will get a deal. If you listen to what European leaders are

:55:12.:55:15.

saying, it is in all of our interests that is the case. You have

:55:16.:55:20.

said during this interview you don't want to see fewer workers on the

:55:21.:55:26.

railway in the future, any thing to say to the RMT union? I hope their

:55:27.:55:34.

workers will return back to work as normal. I am not in this job to

:55:35.:55:38.

slash the number of people on our railways. We need good customer

:55:39.:55:43.

service and their members will be part of that? And a message for

:55:44.:55:50.

Southern? I am grateful to the Southern team, the Aslef team, now

:55:51.:55:55.

we need the same with the RMT and a railway that is back to normal.

:55:56.:56:03.

Thanks for talking to us today. Join us from Southampton at ten,

:56:04.:56:08.

when we will be debating Britain's aid to asylum seekers, then

:56:09.:56:13.

transgender. Should everyone decide their own gender? Lastly, is child

:56:14.:56:18.

poverty set to rise even further? Ten o'clock on BBC One.

:56:19.:56:22.

Next week Chrissie Hynde and the Pretenders will

:56:23.:56:27.

For now, I'll leave you with the wonderful Tift Merrit,

:56:28.:56:30.

# He loves my mouth and he loves my hips

:56:31.:56:56.

# He won't back down and he won't make plans

:56:57.:57:02.

# He is as mean as a snake # It's my dusty old man

:57:03.:57:14.

# Yes, he is as mean as a snake, he's my dusty old man

:57:15.:57:24.

# He says loves me until the scars have gone

:57:25.:57:36.

# Dusty old man # Dusty old man

:57:37.:57:48.

# Here comes my dusty old man # The tears stained hard

:57:49.:57:51.

# This world cannot hand you what you want

:57:52.:57:59.

# All you can do sometimes is say damn!

:58:00.:58:06.

# And give your loving into a dusty old man

:58:07.:58:09.

# Give your loving to a dusty old man

:58:10.:58:15.

# Say love me enough to write my wrongs

:58:16.:58:23.

# Love me until the scars have gone # Love me enough to right my wrongs

:58:24.:58:40.

# Love me until the scars have gone # Dusty old man, here comes my dusty

:58:41.:58:52.

old man #. You should never turn down something

:58:53.:59:02.

you've never done before.

:59:03.:59:17.

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