05/02/2017 The Andrew Marr Show


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The Commons, again this week, is set for a thumping


bust-up over Brexit, but many of us have


more basic concerns - such as, today, a railway system


Is Britain's least popular privatisation coming off the rails?


I'm joined by the Transport Secretary and leading Brexit


As MPs call for a major rethink in Britain's railway system,


we'll be talking, as well, about Commons confrontations over


Picking up on that, and ahead of another tough week


for a hopelessly split Opposition, Emily Thornberry Shadow Foreign


Plus more bread and butter issues with Britian's


top cop, the retiring Metropolitian Police Commissioner


Sir Bernard Hogan Howe - on knife crime, terrorism


I'm joined by the BBC's Frank Gardner


and his latest brush with the Reaper.


And reviewing this morning's news UKIP's Deputy Chair Suzanne Evans,


the former Brussels Bureau Chief, now Political Editor,


of the Financial Times, George Parker and sparky


And to play us out one of America's country music stars, Tift Merrit,


with a song she's written specially about me, Dusty Old Man.


But first the news with Tina Daheley.


Train passengers in Britain are being let down because of the way


the Government oversees the railways, according


The Commons Transport Committee says customers are less and less


satisfied with the service they get, and yet they are paying more for it.


They're calling on the Department for Transport to give


Dissatisfied passengers, rising ticket prices, poor performance.


MPs are scathing about the way the Government


They say passengers have been failed by the way ministers award


The Commons Committee says competition is meant


to drive improvements, but it warns there is dwindling


National Express used to be the biggest train company


here but is quitting the UK railway entirely.


The MPs say the Government is too soft on companies that


break their promises, and there is a call


for the Department for Transport to give up its enforcement powers


They have to have a better way of estimating the impact


of major works on the line, and they should hold the train


Unless that happens, the taxpayer will be funding


the bill and the passengers will be suffering.


The Government acknowledges they can make improvements,


but points out it is investing more than ?40 billion to deliver faster


Train companies say under franchising, they have transformed


the railway into a success story - doubling the number of passengers,


and creating the safest railway in Europe.


The US Government has lodged an appeal to try to restore


President Trump's travel ban on people from seven


A judge in Seattle - James Robart - suspended Donald Trump's


executive order on Friday, ruling that it was


harmful to businesses and educational institutions.


But President Trump has denounced the decision, calling Mr Robart


Major airlines are again allowing citizens from the affected countries


to board flights to the United States.


Reports this morning that President Trump's appeal has been denied.


Some British Airways cabin crew have begun a three day strike


in a dispute over what they describe as "poverty pay".


The Unite union estimates the staff earn, on average, ?16,000


But BA insists none earn less than ?21,000.


The airline says all its passengers will be able to travel,


but that the time of flights might be affected.


The leader of the French National Front, Marine Le Pen,


will officially launch her Presidential election campaign


She has promised to re-negotiate the terms of France's membership


of the European Union, then hold an in-out referendum six


She would also take France out of the single currency


The next news on BBC One is at 1 o'clock.


Lots of different stories in the Sunday papers. Everyone interested


in the Six Nations, Scotland played wonderfully yesterday. Well done,


Scotland. The Sunday Telegraph has gone with the Iraqi witchhunt story


like a dog with a bone. The Mail on Sunday have a story about Nigel


Farage and a friend of his. I will say no more about that at the


moment. Some fruity e-mails involving David Beckham and his


campaign for a knighthood. The Sunday Express has the former


Archbishop of Canterbury defending Trump and blasting his critics.


Finally, the Sunday Times, they have a big story on defence procurement


failures. Pages and pages inside about the failures of our defence


system, and rugby on the front page. We will start with George Parker


talking about the Tory revolt on Brexit. You have a story from the


Mail on Sunday. Yes, May faces revolt over Brexit. Theresa May got


a huge majority last week in the House of Commons with the second


reading but is back in the House of Commons week. There will be a big


bust up. The Mail on Sunday saying basically you will be supporting an


amendment which basically says Theresa May needs to come back to


Parliament for Parliamentary consent if she wants to walk away from


negotiations. It's the end game on this no deal. The PM has been


absolutely clear, if she gets a deal sure you will bring it back to the


House of Commons, in fact both chambers, and there will be votes.


Rightly so. But if there is no deal, the government will determine what


happens next. I think it should come into Parliament. I don't know why


people are so fearful of that. This would give Parliament right at the


end of the process the chance to say, you know what, we don't like


this to your question on the danger for the Prime Minister is if


Parliament rejects the deal she has lost all her authority, it is hard


to go back and plead for another one. That's if we get a deal and the


PM has been clear she will do that. This is about if there is no deal


and our fear is if there is no deal but before the two years is up, and


let's be honest, we won't start these negotiations until the


conclusion of the French elections and then the German elections. In 18


months she has to get up bespoke deal on trade, custom security and


EU citizens. We think that will be very difficult and in the event of


no deal, we want Parliament to decide what happens next. A lot of


people will suspect this is an attempt to stay inside the EU by the


back door. These are these mad conspiracy theories that people have


to real. Last week, overwhelmingly, members of Parliament like me voted


for us to leave the European Union. That is the reality. I never said


anything otherwise. I always said, like all Conservatives, I would


honour the result. That is what we are doing. We are the only party


that is united on that. Suzanne Evans, Ukip is very suspicious about


this process, aren't you? Anna, well done for voting with the government


last week. The people have voted to me. I'm with Theresa May on this. A


no deal situation where we revert to WTO trading deals is better than a


bad deal that would be coming from Brussels. Again, the mail uses this


phrase, going over a cliff edge. There are so many countries out


there not in the single market, who don't have a trade deal with the


European Union but you don't see them thrashing around at the bottom


of the cliff, gasping for breath to save their lives. Many of them are


doing incredibly well. No deal is not... You don't speak to British


business I do, British businesses are increasingly becoming more


positive. Even the CBI, straightforward remainders, pushed


for the Remain agenda and coming round to this idea Britain has a


brighter future outside the EU. That's different to a cliff edge.


The CBI doesn't want us on a cliff edge. Let me move away from the


white cliffs, the other part was about immigration and the promise we


would have control over immigration and the clear implication is it


would come down a lot. Suzanne, you have a story from yesterday's


Guardian. Stephen Crabb Tory MP is urging Theresa May to guarantee the


status of EU nationals in the UK. I agree with that. Nobody in the Leave


campaign suggested EU nationals would be in any way affected by


Brexit. They must have the right to stay here. EU nationals came here in


good faith, expecting to be able to stay and that is the way it should


stay. As Ukip's NHS champion I am particularly worried about EU


workers in the national Health Service, because they are very


important but already we are seeing some fear. There are fewer nurses


coming to Britain now since the referendum vote. We have to get this


sorted now. Theresa May should take the moral high ground and say, yes,


you can stay. I think she has said that. No suggestion there is to be


deportation. Stephen Crabb also says this promise that we are going to


get rid of immigration, that it will come down, is for the birds. Our


economy is dependent on immigration and will continue if we are inside


or outside the EU. Stephen Crabb said students shouldn't be included


in the migration figures. I was at the seminar yesterday attended by


hundreds of Chinese students studying at British universities or


having to go home the moment they finish their degrees. These people


would be brilliant for the British economy but because they are


included in the migration figures, they are sent home. We need to be


honest and have a proper debate. It will be interesting to see when we


leave the EU if we have fewer, more all the same number of migrants. The


only way we have less is by trashing our economy. Bringing us further on,


this is an issue that has divided the Labour Party as well. I think my


party, we are together, it is only cairn that voted against last week


and for understandable reasons. My goodness me, what a mess the Labour


Party is in. -- it was only Ken the voted against. She said happy. We


are not, we need a good, strong opposition, it's important for


democracy. Diane Abbott, taken terribly poorly and couldn't vote,


even though there were people with very serious cancers who did come in


and vote. We see them, they are all over the place. We should be in no


doubt whatsoever about these huge fractions within Labour. There are


about a dozen Labour MPs who defied Jeremy Corbyn last week who are


waiting out to find if they will be sacked, including Clive Lewis. You


could have a situation where he is scrabbling around to find someone to


sit on the Shadow Cabinet. So many Labour MPs see him as a future


leader. Yes, and many say he might quit as a prelude to some leadership


bid. We are having a sweepstake in the office. Can we just be clear, in


the week ahead, what can happen is a whole series of amendments about EU


citizens that Suzanne was talking about and the vote at the end of the


process and many more will be put down and then we will see whether


this piece of legislation is the same as they came into the Commons


or very different. One of the things people have to


remember is the bill is what I call a vehicle to deliver the result of


the referendum. It's not about the contents of it. We will have to see


which amendments for within scope and there could be very few,


actually. Now, let's move onto Trump. George, you had a story from


the Observer, lots of Trump all over the papers today. The papers are


picking apart the dramatic last few weeks. Just had a suggestion his


appeal against this judge in Washington state, wanted to stop the


ban on migrants, has failed. I don't know what stage is out but it looks


like this is a big confrontation that he seems to be losing. Between


the president and the so-called judges, as he refers to them. The


judges are seen by Trump is part of this liberal conspiracy, reflected


here in the Observer, talking about the pain he feels the fact he is


checking Twitter in the middle of the night to see what might have


happened, what the president might tweeted. On the other side there is


Dan Daniel Davidson who says Trump is doing exactly what he said he was


going to do, is not a fascist and there are people on the east coast


and West Coast who just don't get it. Carey said they should come down


about it all. A huge issue for the British establishment because he


will be coming here almost certainly in the summer for a big state visit.


Nigel Farage is about the only big figure in British politics who has


been a resolute supporter of Trump all the way through. He is on the


front page for other reasons as well. You have some trouble with


your man in the Stoke by-election. Can you explain this? Paul Muchall,


your new leader has a nice house in Stoke with no furniture, a mattress


on the floor and it seems a bizarre story. -- Paul not all. I think


labour and Channel 4 have perhaps been medal making. The tenancy


agreement on this house was signed some weeks ago, but as we all know,


when we are renting a new house, it can take some time to fully move in.


As I'm aware, there was furniture in the house. I think Michael looks


through the letterbox, but what is in our hallways is not indicative...


He's living there? Yes. How long for? I think last week. He has never


made, he has never pretended to be local born and bred. Why has he got


this house then? Because he is on the campaign trail every day.


George, why is this an important story, is it an important story? It


is an important story in the sense of his masquerading to be something


he isn't and has broken any electoral rules... Anyone can report


something to the police, as you know. Also on the front page of the


express with Lord Carey. He writes in the express quite a lot.


Interesting, the former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey was one of


the more conservative evangelical archbishops we have. He's saying


today there has been a hysteria over President Trump. I kind of agree


with him. Talking about the demonstration and we had he said, I


can't recall such demonstrations against such terrible autocratic


regimes like Burma, Sudan. It seems to be one of the key characteristics


of those who consider themselves progressive to reserve condemnation


for Israel and the West. He says when it comes to the well's worst


politician there are several other candidates who could trump Trump.


This might be because we hold the Americans to higher standard than we


expect more of them so it's more of a shock when we see this kind of


thing. I think that's right and I have no


problem with people criticising Trump, but the talk about him not


being allowed to come to the country, I think if you have


problems with somebody the last thing you should do is show of you


that is not internationalist and meet their standards. He doesn't


meet MPs, it is a very special occasion which is reserved for


people who have had great achievements in their leadership. It


is too early in the leadership for him to be asked. The Royal Gallery


is the alternative. Westminster Hall in my opinion should be for the


great leaders and he's not a great leader. Would you go and watch him?


I'm not sure I would. The thing about Trump is what does he crave


most, it is attention, he's like a spoiled child. There's a lot to be


said for not giving him all of this stuff because he loves it. He's the


sort where really just ignoring can be the best thing. What we shouldn't


ignore is what he does and what he's done with this executive order, it


is outrageous and hugely offensive and it has no basis in fact in any


event. Except it is carrying on from Obama's previous policy. He didn't


ban. The Sunday Times has done the transport story. The select


committee produced this report overnight that basically says the


Department for Transport is not fit for purpose in handling the


franchises that then control the British railway system. Can you


explain any more about this because it's quite a technical issue. Yes,


and it's mixed up with the southern rail dispute, and the argument is


the Department for Transport cannot cope with the complexity of


negotiating these difficult contracts with a whole host of


private sector companies. Chris Grayling I'm sure will be defending


the system in the future. I think there has been a false moustache


about how brilliant the railways were in the era before


privatisation. Since privatisation rail passenger numbers have actually


doubled. In a menacing world,


no group of people have taken more delight in trying to terrify us


than weather forecasters. Now, apparently, we're heading


for another very cold spell. Thank goodness I'm not paid to


please, especially with views like this this morning, misty, murky,


foggy and icy start this morning. But the tendency will be where you


start that way for things to brighten up. This narrow band of


rain and snow in the hills edging Northover Scotland. This band of


rain may head towards London for a time. Temperatures fell close to


where they should be at the moment for this time review. Any rain will


actually clear away to leave dry night and a widespread frost


developing. Some rural spots in the morning could be down to minus five


and with good season freezing fog patches so it could be a slow start


to our journeys tomorrow morning. The cloud and fog will clear away,


and there will be outbreaks of rain moving in, gale is developing in


some spots. May get to ten in Plymouth, but a cold feel for many


of us. It will turn colder in an easterly wind especially at the end


of the week, and on that wind there could be snow flurries or snow


showers heading our way. Winter hasn't finished with us yet.


It just goes off and on, doesn't it? We've been seeing this week


the first signs of canvassers stumbling around the by-election


centres of Stoke and Copeland. That's where Labour will hear


a meaningful verdict The Shadow Foreign Secretary,


Emily Thornberry, joins me. 47 Labour MPs including ten


frontbenchers voted against the whip or didn't support the whip this


week, where they right to do so? I know your narrative is, as you said


at the top of the programme, that we are hopelessly divided and I don't


think that is fair. The Labour Party is a national party and we represent


the nation and the nation is divided on this and it's very difficult, and


many MPs representing majority Remain constituencies have this


balancing act between representing the constituency and representing


the nation. Labour as a national party have a clear view. We have


been given or instructions, we lost a referendum, we fought to stay in


Europe but the public have spoken so we do as we are told, but the


important thing now is not to give Theresa May a blank check, we have


got to get the right deal for the country. I want to come onto that


but it sounds like you are saying you understand the motives of Labour


MPs who voted with their conscience against triggering Article 50.


Should be therefore perhaps not be disciplined? Given that the country


is split and they are standing with their constituents, as is their


right and some would say their duty? It is not my job to work out what


should happen. I understand completely, and my constituents


voted overwhelmingly to remain in the UK but I am a national


politician, Labour is a national party and we offer some hope. You


say we are hopelessly divided, I say we offer some hope in the way in


which we thought work our way through this so that we bring the


country with us and that has to be on the basis of making sure we have


a number of guarantees from Theresa May and we make sure we have a


number of achievements. So making sure we have proper access to the


single market. Just on whether you are split or not, it sounds like on


this issue collective responsibility has to be put to one side because of


the nature of the split in the country. No, the Labour Party 's


national party and we have a nationally and collectively agreed


position on this and that is what we will do. We will not frustrate


Brexit, we need to get the best deal. That's come onto the Shadow


Home Secretary, have you spoken to Diane Abbott since she didn't vote?


No, I haven't. A lot of people in the Labour Party are furious about


this. She might have had a migraine, but we have one MP coming hundreds


of miles with cancer, putting himself through the mill to get


there. She could have stayed in the House of Commons and been counted


in. Can you understand why some of your colleagues are so cross with


her? I don't know the details about this, all I know is she was ill.


That is all I can say. Can we go through some of the Labour


amendments, first of all... And this is the opposition doing its job,


holding the Government to account and making sure the Government does


the right thing. Guaranteeing rights for EU nationals living in the UK,


there is an amendment specifically about that, but there is no


suggestion really the Government are going to deport foreign nationals


are things go wrong in the talks. Why is this such an important


amendment? I have had people coming to my surgeries in tears. I had a


meeting of 200 French nationals coming to see me and saying... Not


from my constituency, but saying they are extremely concerned about


the future. They have fallen in love with this country, with someone from


this country, they have put their life down here and they have got to


have their life on hold for a number of years while Theresa May sorts it


out. It is a basic humanity question. Yes, but also it is right


at this stage to make a gesture. We are falling out with our European


neighbours in a way that is not good at the start of these negotiations.


She should be sorting this out unilaterally on behalf of people


living in my constituency. Moving on to securing workers' rights and Tory


free access to the single market, do you think that is doable? In


negotiations we have to have at the forefront of our mind making sure we


look after the economy first and foremost. Our biggest trading


neighbour is Europe so getting as good a deal in terms of being close


to the single market, so that does mean... She has said she will be


able to get tariff free access to the single market, we are just


holding her to that. And it is crucial for the Labour Party get the


vote at the end of the process, not simply on the deal but deal or no


deal, whatever happens the Commons will be involved in a proper,


meaningful vote at the end of the process. Yes, and it's also about


engaging Parliament through the process. We represent the country,


so it is not good enough for her to just go off and say goodbye, I will


sort something out, trust me. No, we don't trust you, we want to hold you


to account. She has said one of her options is to break the British


economic model. She has said that's one thing she would be prepared to


do. Are these red lines for you? Yes, we need to make sure that


throughout the negotiations we are ensuring these things happen.


Without this, for you, for the Labour Party, this is a catastrophic


process? No, the difficulty with the negotiation is it is about give and


take, it will be a process happening over the next two years. So my


question is very clear, if you don't get what you achieve, do you vote in


favour of Article 50 anyway? Because it is totally illogical if you do.


Now it is not. There will be negotiations happening in the next


week. There are many ways in which the Government may be able to react


to this that will be positive. For example on one of the amendments we


have put down, they may say we are not going to support this amendment


but during a speech we can give an assurance, we can speak in back


channels, we can say we will not go off the rails in relation to


workers' rights. So the public must take for granted private


conversation between you and ministers and assume that's what's


going to happen even if you don't win votes? Personally I think it is


much better for them to be saying it on the record and saying it so we


know what they are committing themselves to so we can hold them to


account, but they will need to have private conversations, there will


need to be back channels. We are speaking to Tory backbenchers and


trying to get a compromise together that will work. Taking the position


of someone like Clive Lewis, in the Labour Party, he voted for Article


50 in the first vote but he says look, we have these very important


amendments, we need to change this legislation, change it for workers'


rights, tariff free access to the EU and the rest of it, and if we don't


get those I will vote against it. That is a totally logical position,


what's wrong with that? What's wrong with it is we have said we will not


frustrate wrecks it. We are struggling and fighting to make sure


we get the best possible deal and we are doing that by holding the


Government to account, but we are Democrats and the public have voted


for us to leave the European Union. We have to make sure she does the


right thing and is in Europe. And you cannot stay on the front bench


if you don't accept that so presumably Diane Abbott must vote


with the whip to keep her job next week? We are in a state of


negotiations. I cannot sit here and tell you which of the amendments


will be put before Parliament, which ones will be voted through, where


the negotiations will get us, but I can tell you the direction of travel


of the Labour Party, which is a clear direction. At the end of the


process, whatever happens to those amendments, you are going to vote in


favour of Article 50 even if you have lost on every single issue? And


you are insisting someone might Diane Abbott must vote with you? It


is a fast moving picture, let's see what happens. I have said a number


of times what our principles are and how we are trying to get them.


Unfortunately we are not the Government, we are doing our utmost


to the Government to account as an opposition. But at least you can


save Diane Abbott must vote with the whip to keep position as Shadow Home


Secretary next week. The whip will be decided next week, let's see what


happens in relation to the amendments. It will be for the Chief


Whip and the leader to decide what the whip is on various amendments,


which amendments we are pushing, which we are not and what the final


vote will be. Most important, the public are more interested, I think,


on Will we frustrate Brexit? No, we won't. Will would be fighting for


the best deal? Yes, we will. But not very successfully if you don't have


real leverage or red lines, you will vote for it come what may. Look at


the successes we have already had, she didn't want to have a vote


before Parliament at all or White Paper. That was the courts, not the


Labour Party. The White Paper was us demanding it and campaigning for it.


They didn't even want to put in black and white... We are in a


minority, we are the opposition so we have to do it through


negotiations with opposition MPs too, that's the difficulty we are


in. We cannot demand something and get it, we have to work with others


and campaign for it, and slowly, slowly we are achieving the things


we need. We cannot deliver it straightaway. We will keep watching


very carefully. For now, thank you very much indeed.


In 2004, while reporting overseas, the BBC's Frank Gardner was shot


by Al-Qaeda terrorists and gravely wounded.


Frank's been using a wheelchair ever since.


So, how would he fulfil his childhood dream of penetrating one


of the most remote places on the planet to see those magical


Well, he did it, but risked his life in the process.


Let's have a look at one of the edgier moments of his trek.


My life-changing injuries remind me just how vulnerable my body is.


I've been incredibly lucky to be back to


the state that I'm in, but I'm not invincible, you know.


Sooner you found me, Frank. You could have breezed through it,


Andrew! You were basically be carried


through by bearers in the old-fashioned way, how uncomfortable


with that? Very uncomfortable, but far more uncomfortable for them. I


insisted they had padding. They were as strong as oxen. Really tough,


resilient and good-natured. I had to trust them completely, because there


was a kind of relay, as we went through different tribal


territories, one plan were turned over to others they'd have to be,


they'd have to learn all over again about how to carry me. I had to


trust them completely, because they missed their footing or slept, you


could see how steep it was. But yeah, you can sit there, there's a


slight kind of, as you say, air of the Victorian explorer. Obviously


it's not how I would like to travel, but if that's the only way I can see


the Birds of Paradise, so be it. Where did this obsession come from?


From when I was about eight years old, I had a set of playing cards


with Birds of Paradise on the back. My father was playing Schumann on


the piano and I associated that, the music... I thought, I would love to


go and see these. It's been a lifelong quest of mine. When


I got shot and I was in hospital for several months, I thought, I've


missed it, I left it too late. Then I met Benedict Allen, and explorer,


who said I'm your man, I can take you there. He had had a relationship


with this particular tribe going way back? He lived with them for six


months and when so much further than most travellers or adventurers or


backpackers do. He underwent this horrendous rituals scarring that


they do. Nearly 200 cuts with a sharp bamboo blade, blood pouring


off him, to become one of them. This was going back to the tribe you to


live with. Back to his new family, in a sense. What happened to you,


you got sepsis... Not quite, sepsis is really serious. Basically, what


you saw there was me being covered over -- carried over pretty tough


terrain. It chafed away my backside. I got weakened muscles. It meant I


woke up with this jungle sore, the medic looked at it and that it was


quite serious. They flashed the picture to the medics in New


Zealand, they said, get him out now, if he gets sepsis, will only have 48


hours. Let's have a glimpse of that. It's a big wound and that's just


a conduit for infection. We're not going to get up


to the mountains at all, all because of this bloody pressure


sore that I've got. God, you know, I hate the way


the sort of curse of my injuries And yet not quite because he got


back there in the end. I think we will see the second half next week.


Yes, Friday on BBC Two. Thank you. At the end of this month,


Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe will step down as Commissioner


of the Metropolitan Police after a tumultuous period leading


Britain's biggest force. His supporters say he's done


a sterling job keeping the capital safe, so why,


as he leaves, is he so worried that Welcome. You used the phrase red


lights were flashing on the dashboard and crime was rising, what


crime and why? Morning. We have had a succession of years where crime


has come down. In London we have seen a reduction in crime of nearly


a fifth. Over the last 9-12 months we've seen it change around the


country. Why is it going up? Things like cybercrime, frankly there is


more of it. We are seeing more violence reported, to be fair some


of that is about better recording by the police. And we have seen more


sexual offences from the past reported, things that have happened


in the past that people didn't feel confident to report and have now.


We've also seen things like knife crime rise. This can be quite


worrying, obviously, people want to see crime fall. You said you and the


Mayor of London are worried you won't have the money to put enough


police on the streets of the capital and


presumably elsewhere. Every single Tory party conference, I listened to


speeches by ministers saying don't worry, there will be more bobbies on


the beat and the Conservatives, what's gone wrong? I suppose the big


thing is there's not enough money. After 2008 public spending went


down. Across the UK, the number of cops has come down from 147,000 to


120,000. We have maintained our numbers. But in the future... I


think it will be very hard because the money is still tight. The


demands are getting higher, pay increases and various other things.


And the likelihood is by 2020, less public spending, another ?3 billion


to come. We've seen some rises in crime and we are seeing the number,


the amount of money available to the police is reducing. Put it bluntly,


fewer police on the streets of London and higher crime in the


future? It's a risk, I can't say it will happen... This city is getting


bigger, 9 million people, and it's getting younger. The north-east of


England, more young men around. I'm not defeated by nature, I don't


think just because there is less money you have to fail. All I am


highlighting, to be fair to my successors, is it will be a more


challenging environment. We've done a lot in the last five years to make


the Metropolitan Police more efficient and modern. We've taken


out a lot of things from the past that were inefficient and kept our


32,000 courts. Less buildings, less managers, but we have lost about


4500 support staff. You have to do these things on their arm or hard


decisions to come. What are the hardest decisions still to come? The


main one is how do you find more savings question what you can only


make so many efficiencies. 70% of our costs are down to people, so you


have to look in that area, where we have already made savings, and we


have outsourced quite a lot commercial entities. As you head for


a happy retirement, is your final message to Amber Rudd and the Prime


Minister, think again on the money? I hope, I'm sure what the government


will do... We've had lots of support from this Prime Minister when she


was Home Secretary. They have always been supportive of the police and


tried our best -- their best to keep this in a good place. It is my job


as one of the top police officers in the country to say this is something


you have to continue to invest in. 12- ?13 billion of spend, you


compare it to the health service and military, they are far bigger


spenders. A relatively small amount. I can only make my case the cops. If


you don't have them, you have a problem. We are a hygiene factor,


you have to invest. As I leave I hope the legacy is a good one but


one that continues to needed to be invested in. On your watch apart


from the terrible killing of Lee Rigby, it's been relatively quiet on


the terrorism front. What is your message to people watching? Still a


severe level of threat officially. How worried are you? We should be


proud of what we have achieved so far. Western Europe, France, Belgium


and Germany, we have seen terrorist attacks get through. If you think


about what happened in November 20 15th in Paris, 200 badly injured,


this is what it looks like if they get through. What you have to get is


an excellent security service, which we have, and I would argue the best


of the world partnership between the security service and police. You


work a lot more closely with MI5 than you used to? Yes. We also have


networks across the country which is fantastic, the Metropolitan Police


leads that network and that gives you links into our communities. That


means people tell us stuff. The Nexis to link with the security


service, the links with a broad and the combined power of that is


immense. The best in the world. What did you feel what did you think when


you saw the Prime Minister put security cooperation, intelligence


cooperation on the table, as part of Brexit negotiation? I think the


political decision to leave Europe is not for me. What I believe will


happen in the future is it will be neutral effect, really, on security


cooperation. I genuinely think Europe and the rest of the world


needs the support of the security services in the UK. There is more of


a joint benefit in sharing information with French and Belgians


and no one wants our terrorists to go there or there is to come here.


Nobody will sit on their laurels and say, I tell you what, we're not


going to share data. We will share intelligence and we will keep people


safe. So it should already be part of these negotiations, on the table


as a counter to be moved around? That is a political decision. My


only point is I think in the future I'm confident the arrangements that


are put in place will keep us safe, as with Europe. It is fine for both


parties to do that. It is vital that anyone travelling between us doesn't


think they will have a safe haven on either side of the border. We will


make that work. We have in the past before Europe, we have during Europe


and I'm sure we will in future. When the Prime Minister was Home


Secretary she made you rein back on stop and search. What happened to


knife crime as a result? Not quite right chronologically. I


started to reduce stop and search before anyone asked for it. When I


arrived in 2011 there was a period of instability. We had riots in the


city. When I looked at it, one of the things that concerned me was the


high rate of stop and search. We were stopped searching about 1.3


million. I said we would reduce it and get better at it and we did. And


what has happened to knife crime? Initially it came down. It now gone


up again? Let me make my point little. We have reduce stop and


search by about 70% and reduced complaints it. For the first four


years we not only reduce the amount of stop and search, we saw that we


arrested more people, so becoming more effective at and we saw knife


crime dropped. It is only in the last year we have seen this change.


We've started to increase stop and search in a smart way, where the


problems up and started to get on top of some of these problems. If


you think stop and search is a good thing, you have to do it. But I


honestly think in 2011 we did it too much, we have reduced and I think we


have achieved a good outcome. Now we have just seen we need to tweak it


again. A little bit more. It's a heck of a job. What is your


reflection on the qualities needed by your successor? You have to deal


with American London, the Home Secretary, the Prime Minister, the


national media. -- the American London. If you are putting on paper


at the top qualities needed for your successor, what would it be? You


have to enjoy it, you have to want to do this job as a cop. I'm a


policeman. I will leave being a policeman and I will regret not


being a policeman. Your heart and location has to beat police officer.


You want to stop crime, arrest offenders. You have to think about


how to use resources wisely. I hope we have been efficient in the way we


have used our resources. You have to work with people Big Show whichever


political party, I don't care which party they are from. I have a duty


to work with that elected party and make it work. You have to be


flexible. This city is moving around us at a rate we've never seen. A


million people have arrived in the last ten years. You have to be


flexible. One final question, any big regrets? The operation Midland


issue must hangover you a bit? Of course there are occasions when I


wish we'd done better. That is one of them? It is. I've apologise, is


that I regret it and apologise to the individuals as well. In my time


of five and a half years we've investigated about 5 million crimes,


probably about 20 million phone calls. We do get it wrong sometimes.


I use this analogy, and I hope you're not a librarian, if


librarians get it wrong the books are in the wrong order, when we get


it wrong it really matters. I am glad we are disappointed


collectively when the British police get it wrong because we have high


standards. People all over the world will capitalise on the reason is we


act reasonably and professionally. One of the few forces that can


patrol the city but this without a gun and that is because we have the


support of the public. 32,000 cops cannot dominate a point a billion


people and nor should they. We should be proud of British police


and I am proud of it. The Bernard Hogan-Howe, thank you for talking to


us today. Coming up later this morning,


Andrew Neil will be talking to the Housing Minister Gavin Barwell


about his plans to increase the number of affordable


homes being built. And Ellie Price reports


on the haggling to come over That's the Sunday Politics


at 11am, here on BBC One. The Sunday Times this morning


describes it as a "savaging". Essentially, MPs have concluded


that the Department for Transport can't properly run the privatised


rail system so many Britons rely on. And this comes after months of utter


misery for Southern rail commuters. Another, the RMT, most


emphatically has not. Chris Grayling, the man


in the hot seat, joins me now. This is a very important report by


MPs and they have concluded that the transport department is not fit for


purpose when it comes to the rail system. Are you going to look again


at the way you handle franchises? Let's be clear what the problem is,


they are bursting at the seams, the number of passengers has doubled,


trains are full. That's a big challenge we have got to address. I


agree with a lot of what's in the report, it doesn't quite paint the


picture you have just done, it made sensible recommendations about how


to improve things, many of which I'm already doing. They say there is not


enough coordination between rail and the infrastructure operator, the


truck operator and the train companies. I agree with that, before


Christmas I set out plans to reunite track and trained step-by-step. And


they make a number of sensible suggestions, some of which I'm


doing. They say there have been recent circumstances which are


franchised operator might have been exposed to substantial risk... A


substantial degree of risk but the department chose to insulated. The


risk remains with the taxpayer. If you look at what has happened, and


you are talking about southern rail. The operator is effectively a


management contract rather than exposed to financial risk and the


reason for that is we are currently putting a large amount of money into


modernising London Bridge station. It's meant a huge amount of


disruption over the last few years and the judgment of the department


at the time was that the price we would pay to allow the private


sector to carry the risk of disruption as a result of those


works was greater than they wished to pay... Sorry, to a lot of people


watching this must seem bonkers. The private company gets the prophets


and the taxpayer takes the risk and the result has been catastrophic. It


is an exceptional circumstance because of the scale of


modernisation on the Thames Link programme, the biggest


infrastructure investment in our mainline railways for a long time.


Everywhere else on the railway people take financial risk, this was


a special case. Can at least we say this kind of contract will never be


done again? It's interesting because some, like the Mayor of London, are


saying that is precisely what we should be doing. I want to see the


private sector much more involved in the infrastructure in the future.


People don't understand why someone once the tracks and someone runs the


trains. They want one team running the railways, planning for the


future, and making sure there is one team dealing with problems when they


happen. Because the taxpayer was still paying, they still got their


profit which removed pressure on them during the strike some people


believe you wanted Southern Rail to break the union is because you were


going to spread the system right across the UK. No, it was done


because of the London Bridge investment. If you had seen the


management team at work in the last few months nobody would believe they


wanted this to happen and indeed the company has been taking a huge hit


reputation lay in the last few months because of the strike action


so I don't think you could say anybody wanted this. In the last


week, they reached agreement in the Aslef dispute and I very much hope


now the other union, RMT, will come back to the table and sort out an


arrangement that looks after its own members. My commitment to them and


everyone involved in this railway, I don't believe we need fewer people


on the railways. They may do slightly different jobs, but a


railway of its bursting at the seams in my view needs staffing. So


particularly on long-distance trains you need a guard as well. I travel a


lot on trains and you see disabled people, you see people struggling


and they need someone from the railway system who is not driving


the train to help them, you would agree with that? I am absolutely of


the view that we will need as many staff in the future providing


support to the customers as we have today. Their jobs may change, the


technology may change, but the customer service cannot change.


Another issue is HS2. Lord MacPherson said he thinks it is


running wildly over budget, it is simply too expensive. ?90 billion


could be spent much more effectively on other parts of the railway system


or the road system, isn't he right? We have a rail system that is


bursting at the seams, we have to take a decision about what we want


for the future. Do we want a rail system that can carry more


passengers? HS2 is all about that. It will mean thousands more commuter


seeds into Euston station in a peak day morning rush-hour. The same is


true in Birmingham, Leeds and Manchester. It's about creating


extra capacity. We cannot deliver a rail that is fit for the future


without extra capacity, and if you are going to build a railway line,


why wouldn't you build a state-of-the-art one? Because a lot


of people say it is already out of date. Let me ask about London


particular. What hope can you give to people in north London who are


terrified about the amount of pollution and disruption that will


be caused for 20 years? Bits of Camden will be wiped off the map. We


are currently working through a plan that I think will ease that impact.


I want to keep the impact of construction of HS2 as low as


possible to all communities affected up and down the route. You cannot


build something of this scale without any impact but we will do


what we can to minimise it. I want to ask, not long ago we were told


the way forward was diesel cars, now we know more about the particulates


put out by diesel cars and that they are seriously affecting the health


of a lot of people and we want to get rid of diesel cars. There is


some talk of a scrappage scheme, can you tell us anything about that? The


reality is we need to address the problem, there is a public health


issue. We started with diesel cars because we thought they would


produce carbon emissions, we now realise there is a knock-on effect.


The way we react cannot happen overnight but we have to work quite


quickly. There's a number of options we are looking at. Andrea Leadsom is


working through an air quality strategy which will be published in


due course, but we recognise we have to do this. We recognise we need


cleaner air in our cities and it is not something we can ignore. There


is so much talk about on Brexit, I want to pick particular issue. Isn't


it right that the end of this process, no matter what happens,


whether we get a deal or not, the House of Commons, which is supposed


to be sovereign, gets a proper vote? Theresa May has already promised


there will be a vote at the end of it but the legal position is that if


there is not a deal then we leave so the reality is we are going to go


into negotiation with a view to delivering, negotiating a deal that


is good for everyone. If there isn't a deal, shouldn't there be a vote


about what happens next? It is a vast issue for the entire country,


it will affect everyone in this country at that moment. The House of


Commons should have a proper say on that, surely? The House of Commons


voted for a referendum, we had a referendum, the people of the


country gave's of view, we are following that through, we go into


the negotiations with the full expectation that a sensible deal


will be agreed which works for both sides. We are their biggest


customer, I am confident Theresa May will deliver a good deal. But if


that doesn't happen, Parliamentary sovereignty hasn't been suspended


because of the Brexit referendum, it still matters, surely Parliament


should get a vote come what may at the end of this process? Theresa May


is committed to having a vote on that deal? If there is a deal? I'm


confident we will get a deal. If you listen to what European leaders are


saying, it is in all of our interests that is the case. You have


said during this interview you don't want to see fewer workers on the


railway in the future, any thing to say to the RMT union? I hope their


workers will return back to work as normal. I am not in this job to


slash the number of people on our railways. We need good customer


service and their members will be part of that? And a message for


Southern? I am grateful to the Southern team, the Aslef team, now


we need the same with the RMT and a railway that is back to normal.


Thanks for talking to us today. Join us from Southampton at ten,


when we will be debating Britain's aid to asylum seekers, then


transgender. Should everyone decide their own gender? Lastly, is child


poverty set to rise even further? Ten o'clock on BBC One.


Next week Chrissie Hynde and the Pretenders will


For now, I'll leave you with the wonderful Tift Merrit,


# He loves my mouth and he loves my hips


# He won't back down and he won't make plans


# He is as mean as a snake # It's my dusty old man


# Yes, he is as mean as a snake, he's my dusty old man


# He says loves me until the scars have gone


# Dusty old man # Dusty old man


# Here comes my dusty old man # The tears stained hard


# This world cannot hand you what you want


# All you can do sometimes is say damn!


# And give your loving into a dusty old man


# Give your loving to a dusty old man


# Say love me enough to write my wrongs


# Love me until the scars have gone # Love me enough to right my wrongs


# Love me until the scars have gone # Dusty old man, here comes my dusty


old man #. You should never turn down something


you've never done before.


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