05/02/2017 The Andrew Marr Show

The Commons, again this week, is set for a thumping

bust-up over Brexit, but many of us have

more basic concerns - such as, today, a railway system

Is Britain's least popular privatisation coming off the rails?

I'm joined by the Transport Secretary and leading Brexit

As MPs call for a major rethink in Britain's railway system,

we'll be talking, as well, about Commons confrontations over

Picking up on that, and ahead of another tough week

for a hopelessly split Opposition, Emily Thornberry Shadow Foreign

Plus more bread and butter issues with Britian's

top cop, the retiring Metropolitian Police Commissioner

Sir Bernard Hogan Howe - on knife crime, terrorism

I'm joined by the BBC's Frank Gardner

and his latest brush with the Reaper.

And reviewing this morning's news UKIP's Deputy Chair Suzanne Evans,

the former Brussels Bureau Chief, now Political Editor,

of the Financial Times, George Parker and sparky

And to play us out one of America's country music stars, Tift Merrit,

with a song she's written specially about me, Dusty Old Man.

But first the news with Tina Daheley.

Train passengers in Britain are being let down because of the way

the Government oversees the railways, according

The Commons Transport Committee says customers are less and less

satisfied with the service they get, and yet they are paying more for it.

They're calling on the Department for Transport to give

Dissatisfied passengers, rising ticket prices, poor performance.

MPs are scathing about the way the Government

They say passengers have been failed by the way ministers award

The Commons Committee says competition is meant

to drive improvements, but it warns there is dwindling

National Express used to be the biggest train company

here but is quitting the UK railway entirely.

The MPs say the Government is too soft on companies that

break their promises, and there is a call

for the Department for Transport to give up its enforcement powers

They have to have a better way of estimating the impact

of major works on the line, and they should hold the train

Unless that happens, the taxpayer will be funding

the bill and the passengers will be suffering.

The Government acknowledges they can make improvements,

but points out it is investing more than ?40 billion to deliver faster

Train companies say under franchising, they have transformed

the railway into a success story - doubling the number of passengers,

and creating the safest railway in Europe.

The US Government has lodged an appeal to try to restore

President Trump's travel ban on people from seven

A judge in Seattle - James Robart - suspended Donald Trump's

executive order on Friday, ruling that it was

harmful to businesses and educational institutions.

But President Trump has denounced the decision, calling Mr Robart

Major airlines are again allowing citizens from the affected countries

to board flights to the United States.

Reports this morning that President Trump's appeal has been denied.

Some British Airways cabin crew have begun a three day strike

in a dispute over what they describe as "poverty pay".

The Unite union estimates the staff earn, on average, ?16,000

But BA insists none earn less than ?21,000.

The airline says all its passengers will be able to travel,

but that the time of flights might be affected.

The leader of the French National Front, Marine Le Pen,

will officially launch her Presidential election campaign

She has promised to re-negotiate the terms of France's membership

of the European Union, then hold an in-out referendum six

She would also take France out of the single currency

The next news on BBC One is at 1 o'clock.

Lots of different stories in the Sunday papers. Everyone interested

in the Six Nations, Scotland played wonderfully yesterday. Well done,

Scotland. The Sunday Telegraph has gone with the Iraqi witchhunt story

like a dog with a bone. The Mail on Sunday have a story about Nigel

Farage and a friend of his. I will say no more about that at the

moment. Some fruity e-mails involving David Beckham and his

campaign for a knighthood. The Sunday Express has the former

Archbishop of Canterbury defending Trump and blasting his critics.

Finally, the Sunday Times, they have a big story on defence procurement

failures. Pages and pages inside about the failures of our defence

system, and rugby on the front page. We will start with George Parker

talking about the Tory revolt on Brexit. You have a story from the

Mail on Sunday. Yes, May faces revolt over Brexit. Theresa May got

a huge majority last week in the House of Commons with the second

reading but is back in the House of Commons week. There will be a big

bust up. The Mail on Sunday saying basically you will be supporting an

amendment which basically says Theresa May needs to come back to

Parliament for Parliamentary consent if she wants to walk away from

negotiations. It's the end game on this no deal. The PM has been

absolutely clear, if she gets a deal sure you will bring it back to the

House of Commons, in fact both chambers, and there will be votes.

Rightly so. But if there is no deal, the government will determine what

happens next. I think it should come into Parliament. I don't know why

people are so fearful of that. This would give Parliament right at the

end of the process the chance to say, you know what, we don't like

this to your question on the danger for the Prime Minister is if

Parliament rejects the deal she has lost all her authority, it is hard

to go back and plead for another one. That's if we get a deal and the

PM has been clear she will do that. This is about if there is no deal

and our fear is if there is no deal but before the two years is up, and

let's be honest, we won't start these negotiations until the

conclusion of the French elections and then the German elections. In 18

months she has to get up bespoke deal on trade, custom security and

EU citizens. We think that will be very difficult and in the event of

no deal, we want Parliament to decide what happens next. A lot of

people will suspect this is an attempt to stay inside the EU by the

back door. These are these mad conspiracy theories that people have

to real. Last week, overwhelmingly, members of Parliament like me voted

for us to leave the European Union. That is the reality. I never said

anything otherwise. I always said, like all Conservatives, I would

honour the result. That is what we are doing. We are the only party

that is united on that. Suzanne Evans, Ukip is very suspicious about

this process, aren't you? Anna, well done for voting with the government

last week. The people have voted to me. I'm with Theresa May on this. A

no deal situation where we revert to WTO trading deals is better than a

bad deal that would be coming from Brussels. Again, the mail uses this

phrase, going over a cliff edge. There are so many countries out

there not in the single market, who don't have a trade deal with the

European Union but you don't see them thrashing around at the bottom

of the cliff, gasping for breath to save their lives. Many of them are

doing incredibly well. No deal is not... You don't speak to British

business I do, British businesses are increasingly becoming more

positive. Even the CBI, straightforward remainders, pushed

for the Remain agenda and coming round to this idea Britain has a

brighter future outside the EU. That's different to a cliff edge.

The CBI doesn't want us on a cliff edge. Let me move away from the

white cliffs, the other part was about immigration and the promise we

would have control over immigration and the clear implication is it

would come down a lot. Suzanne, you have a story from yesterday's

Guardian. Stephen Crabb Tory MP is urging Theresa May to guarantee the

status of EU nationals in the UK. I agree with that. Nobody in the Leave

campaign suggested EU nationals would be in any way affected by

Brexit. They must have the right to stay here. EU nationals came here in

good faith, expecting to be able to stay and that is the way it should

stay. As Ukip's NHS champion I am particularly worried about EU

workers in the national Health Service, because they are very

important but already we are seeing some fear. There are fewer nurses

coming to Britain now since the referendum vote. We have to get this

sorted now. Theresa May should take the moral high ground and say, yes,

you can stay. I think she has said that. No suggestion there is to be

deportation. Stephen Crabb also says this promise that we are going to

get rid of immigration, that it will come down, is for the birds. Our

economy is dependent on immigration and will continue if we are inside

or outside the EU. Stephen Crabb said students shouldn't be included

in the migration figures. I was at the seminar yesterday attended by

hundreds of Chinese students studying at British universities or

having to go home the moment they finish their degrees. These people

would be brilliant for the British economy but because they are

included in the migration figures, they are sent home. We need to be

honest and have a proper debate. It will be interesting to see when we

leave the EU if we have fewer, more all the same number of migrants. The

only way we have less is by trashing our economy. Bringing us further on,

this is an issue that has divided the Labour Party as well. I think my

party, we are together, it is only cairn that voted against last week

and for understandable reasons. My goodness me, what a mess the Labour

Party is in. -- it was only Ken the voted against. She said happy. We

are not, we need a good, strong opposition, it's important for

democracy. Diane Abbott, taken terribly poorly and couldn't vote,

even though there were people with very serious cancers who did come in

and vote. We see them, they are all over the place. We should be in no

doubt whatsoever about these huge fractions within Labour. There are

about a dozen Labour MPs who defied Jeremy Corbyn last week who are

waiting out to find if they will be sacked, including Clive Lewis. You

could have a situation where he is scrabbling around to find someone to

sit on the Shadow Cabinet. So many Labour MPs see him as a future

leader. Yes, and many say he might quit as a prelude to some leadership

bid. We are having a sweepstake in the office. Can we just be clear, in

the week ahead, what can happen is a whole series of amendments about EU

citizens that Suzanne was talking about and the vote at the end of the

process and many more will be put down and then we will see whether

this piece of legislation is the same as they came into the Commons

or very different. One of the things people have to

remember is the bill is what I call a vehicle to deliver the result of

the referendum. It's not about the contents of it. We will have to see

which amendments for within scope and there could be very few,

actually. Now, let's move onto Trump. George, you had a story from

the Observer, lots of Trump all over the papers today. The papers are

picking apart the dramatic last few weeks. Just had a suggestion his

appeal against this judge in Washington state, wanted to stop the

ban on migrants, has failed. I don't know what stage is out but it looks

like this is a big confrontation that he seems to be losing. Between

the president and the so-called judges, as he refers to them. The

judges are seen by Trump is part of this liberal conspiracy, reflected

here in the Observer, talking about the pain he feels the fact he is

checking Twitter in the middle of the night to see what might have

happened, what the president might tweeted. On the other side there is

Dan Daniel Davidson who says Trump is doing exactly what he said he was

going to do, is not a fascist and there are people on the east coast

and West Coast who just don't get it. Carey said they should come down

about it all. A huge issue for the British establishment because he

will be coming here almost certainly in the summer for a big state visit.

Nigel Farage is about the only big figure in British politics who has

been a resolute supporter of Trump all the way through. He is on the

front page for other reasons as well. You have some trouble with

your man in the Stoke by-election. Can you explain this? Paul Muchall,

your new leader has a nice house in Stoke with no furniture, a mattress

on the floor and it seems a bizarre story. -- Paul not all. I think

labour and Channel 4 have perhaps been medal making. The tenancy

agreement on this house was signed some weeks ago, but as we all know,

when we are renting a new house, it can take some time to fully move in.

As I'm aware, there was furniture in the house. I think Michael looks

through the letterbox, but what is in our hallways is not indicative...

He's living there? Yes. How long for? I think last week. He has never

made, he has never pretended to be local born and bred. Why has he got

this house then? Because he is on the campaign trail every day.

George, why is this an important story, is it an important story? It

is an important story in the sense of his masquerading to be something

he isn't and has broken any electoral rules... Anyone can report

something to the police, as you know. Also on the front page of the

express with Lord Carey. He writes in the express quite a lot.

Interesting, the former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey was one of

the more conservative evangelical archbishops we have. He's saying

today there has been a hysteria over President Trump. I kind of agree

with him. Talking about the demonstration and we had he said, I

can't recall such demonstrations against such terrible autocratic

regimes like Burma, Sudan. It seems to be one of the key characteristics

of those who consider themselves progressive to reserve condemnation

for Israel and the West. He says when it comes to the well's worst

politician there are several other candidates who could trump Trump.

This might be because we hold the Americans to higher standard than we

expect more of them so it's more of a shock when we see this kind of

thing. I think that's right and I have no

problem with people criticising Trump, but the talk about him not

being allowed to come to the country, I think if you have

problems with somebody the last thing you should do is show of you

that is not internationalist and meet their standards. He doesn't

meet MPs, it is a very special occasion which is reserved for

people who have had great achievements in their leadership. It

is too early in the leadership for him to be asked. The Royal Gallery

is the alternative. Westminster Hall in my opinion should be for the

great leaders and he's not a great leader. Would you go and watch him?

I'm not sure I would. The thing about Trump is what does he crave

most, it is attention, he's like a spoiled child. There's a lot to be

said for not giving him all of this stuff because he loves it. He's the

sort where really just ignoring can be the best thing. What we shouldn't

ignore is what he does and what he's done with this executive order, it

is outrageous and hugely offensive and it has no basis in fact in any

event. Except it is carrying on from Obama's previous policy. He didn't

ban. The Sunday Times has done the transport story. The select

committee produced this report overnight that basically says the

Department for Transport is not fit for purpose in handling the

franchises that then control the British railway system. Can you

explain any more about this because it's quite a technical issue. Yes,

and it's mixed up with the southern rail dispute, and the argument is

the Department for Transport cannot cope with the complexity of

negotiating these difficult contracts with a whole host of

private sector companies. Chris Grayling I'm sure will be defending

the system in the future. I think there has been a false moustache

about how brilliant the railways were in the era before

privatisation. Since privatisation rail passenger numbers have actually

doubled. In a menacing world,

no group of people have taken more delight in trying to terrify us

than weather forecasters. Now, apparently, we're heading

for another very cold spell. Thank goodness I'm not paid to

please, especially with views like this this morning, misty, murky,

foggy and icy start this morning. But the tendency will be where you

start that way for things to brighten up. This narrow band of

rain and snow in the hills edging Northover Scotland. This band of

rain may head towards London for a time. Temperatures fell close to

where they should be at the moment for this time review. Any rain will

actually clear away to leave dry night and a widespread frost

developing. Some rural spots in the morning could be down to minus five

and with good season freezing fog patches so it could be a slow start

to our journeys tomorrow morning. The cloud and fog will clear away,

and there will be outbreaks of rain moving in, gale is developing in

some spots. May get to ten in Plymouth, but a cold feel for many

of us. It will turn colder in an easterly wind especially at the end

of the week, and on that wind there could be snow flurries or snow

showers heading our way. Winter hasn't finished with us yet.

It just goes off and on, doesn't it? We've been seeing this week

the first signs of canvassers stumbling around the by-election

centres of Stoke and Copeland. That's where Labour will hear

a meaningful verdict The Shadow Foreign Secretary,

Emily Thornberry, joins me. 47 Labour MPs including ten

frontbenchers voted against the whip or didn't support the whip this

week, where they right to do so? I know your narrative is, as you said

at the top of the programme, that we are hopelessly divided and I don't

think that is fair. The Labour Party is a national party and we represent

the nation and the nation is divided on this and it's very difficult, and

many MPs representing majority Remain constituencies have this

balancing act between representing the constituency and representing

the nation. Labour as a national party have a clear view. We have

been given or instructions, we lost a referendum, we fought to stay in

Europe but the public have spoken so we do as we are told, but the

important thing now is not to give Theresa May a blank check, we have

got to get the right deal for the country. I want to come onto that

but it sounds like you are saying you understand the motives of Labour

MPs who voted with their conscience against triggering Article 50.

Should be therefore perhaps not be disciplined? Given that the country

is split and they are standing with their constituents, as is their

right and some would say their duty? It is not my job to work out what

should happen. I understand completely, and my constituents

voted overwhelmingly to remain in the UK but I am a national

politician, Labour is a national party and we offer some hope. You

say we are hopelessly divided, I say we offer some hope in the way in

which we thought work our way through this so that we bring the

country with us and that has to be on the basis of making sure we have

a number of guarantees from Theresa May and we make sure we have a

number of achievements. So making sure we have proper access to the

single market. Just on whether you are split or not, it sounds like on

this issue collective responsibility has to be put to one side because of

the nature of the split in the country. No, the Labour Party 's

national party and we have a nationally and collectively agreed

position on this and that is what we will do. We will not frustrate

Brexit, we need to get the best deal. That's come onto the Shadow

Home Secretary, have you spoken to Diane Abbott since she didn't vote?

No, I haven't. A lot of people in the Labour Party are furious about

this. She might have had a migraine, but we have one MP coming hundreds

of miles with cancer, putting himself through the mill to get

there. She could have stayed in the House of Commons and been counted

in. Can you understand why some of your colleagues are so cross with

her? I don't know the details about this, all I know is she was ill.

That is all I can say. Can we go through some of the Labour

amendments, first of all... And this is the opposition doing its job,

holding the Government to account and making sure the Government does

the right thing. Guaranteeing rights for EU nationals living in the UK,

there is an amendment specifically about that, but there is no

suggestion really the Government are going to deport foreign nationals

are things go wrong in the talks. Why is this such an important

amendment? I have had people coming to my surgeries in tears. I had a

meeting of 200 French nationals coming to see me and saying... Not

from my constituency, but saying they are extremely concerned about

the future. They have fallen in love with this country, with someone from

this country, they have put their life down here and they have got to

have their life on hold for a number of years while Theresa May sorts it

out. It is a basic humanity question. Yes, but also it is right

at this stage to make a gesture. We are falling out with our European

neighbours in a way that is not good at the start of these negotiations.

She should be sorting this out unilaterally on behalf of people

living in my constituency. Moving on to securing workers' rights and Tory

free access to the single market, do you think that is doable? In

negotiations we have to have at the forefront of our mind making sure we

look after the economy first and foremost. Our biggest trading

neighbour is Europe so getting as good a deal in terms of being close

to the single market, so that does mean... She has said she will be

able to get tariff free access to the single market, we are just

holding her to that. And it is crucial for the Labour Party get the

vote at the end of the process, not simply on the deal but deal or no

deal, whatever happens the Commons will be involved in a proper,

meaningful vote at the end of the process. Yes, and it's also about

engaging Parliament through the process. We represent the country,

so it is not good enough for her to just go off and say goodbye, I will

sort something out, trust me. No, we don't trust you, we want to hold you

to account. She has said one of her options is to break the British

economic model. She has said that's one thing she would be prepared to

do. Are these red lines for you? Yes, we need to make sure that

throughout the negotiations we are ensuring these things happen.

Without this, for you, for the Labour Party, this is a catastrophic

process? No, the difficulty with the negotiation is it is about give and

take, it will be a process happening over the next two years. So my

question is very clear, if you don't get what you achieve, do you vote in

favour of Article 50 anyway? Because it is totally illogical if you do.

Now it is not. There will be negotiations happening in the next

week. There are many ways in which the Government may be able to react

to this that will be positive. For example on one of the amendments we

have put down, they may say we are not going to support this amendment

but during a speech we can give an assurance, we can speak in back

channels, we can say we will not go off the rails in relation to

workers' rights. So the public must take for granted private

conversation between you and ministers and assume that's what's

going to happen even if you don't win votes? Personally I think it is

much better for them to be saying it on the record and saying it so we

know what they are committing themselves to so we can hold them to

account, but they will need to have private conversations, there will

need to be back channels. We are speaking to Tory backbenchers and

trying to get a compromise together that will work. Taking the position

of someone like Clive Lewis, in the Labour Party, he voted for Article

50 in the first vote but he says look, we have these very important

amendments, we need to change this legislation, change it for workers'

rights, tariff free access to the EU and the rest of it, and if we don't

get those I will vote against it. That is a totally logical position,

what's wrong with that? What's wrong with it is we have said we will not

frustrate wrecks it. We are struggling and fighting to make sure

we get the best possible deal and we are doing that by holding the

Government to account, but we are Democrats and the public have voted

for us to leave the European Union. We have to make sure she does the

right thing and is in Europe. And you cannot stay on the front bench

if you don't accept that so presumably Diane Abbott must vote

with the whip to keep her job next week? We are in a state of

negotiations. I cannot sit here and tell you which of the amendments

will be put before Parliament, which ones will be voted through, where

the negotiations will get us, but I can tell you the direction of travel

of the Labour Party, which is a clear direction. At the end of the

process, whatever happens to those amendments, you are going to vote in

favour of Article 50 even if you have lost on every single issue? And

you are insisting someone might Diane Abbott must vote with you? It

is a fast moving picture, let's see what happens. I have said a number

of times what our principles are and how we are trying to get them.

Unfortunately we are not the Government, we are doing our utmost

to the Government to account as an opposition. But at least you can

save Diane Abbott must vote with the whip to keep position as Shadow Home

Secretary next week. The whip will be decided next week, let's see what

happens in relation to the amendments. It will be for the Chief

Whip and the leader to decide what the whip is on various amendments,

which amendments we are pushing, which we are not and what the final

vote will be. Most important, the public are more interested, I think,

on Will we frustrate Brexit? No, we won't. Will would be fighting for

the best deal? Yes, we will. But not very successfully if you don't have

real leverage or red lines, you will vote for it come what may. Look at

the successes we have already had, she didn't want to have a vote

before Parliament at all or White Paper. That was the courts, not the

Labour Party. The White Paper was us demanding it and campaigning for it.

They didn't even want to put in black and white... We are in a

minority, we are the opposition so we have to do it through

negotiations with opposition MPs too, that's the difficulty we are

in. We cannot demand something and get it, we have to work with others

and campaign for it, and slowly, slowly we are achieving the things

we need. We cannot deliver it straightaway. We will keep watching

very carefully. For now, thank you very much indeed.

In 2004, while reporting overseas, the BBC's Frank Gardner was shot

by Al-Qaeda terrorists and gravely wounded.

Frank's been using a wheelchair ever since.

So, how would he fulfil his childhood dream of penetrating one

of the most remote places on the planet to see those magical

Well, he did it, but risked his life in the process.

Let's have a look at one of the edgier moments of his trek.

My life-changing injuries remind me just how vulnerable my body is.

I've been incredibly lucky to be back to

the state that I'm in, but I'm not invincible, you know.

Sooner you found me, Frank. You could have breezed through it,

Andrew! You were basically be carried

through by bearers in the old-fashioned way, how uncomfortable

with that? Very uncomfortable, but far more uncomfortable for them. I

insisted they had padding. They were as strong as oxen. Really tough,

resilient and good-natured. I had to trust them completely, because there

was a kind of relay, as we went through different tribal

territories, one plan were turned over to others they'd have to be,

they'd have to learn all over again about how to carry me. I had to

trust them completely, because they missed their footing or slept, you

could see how steep it was. But yeah, you can sit there, there's a

slight kind of, as you say, air of the Victorian explorer. Obviously

it's not how I would like to travel, but if that's the only way I can see

the Birds of Paradise, so be it. Where did this obsession come from?

From when I was about eight years old, I had a set of playing cards

with Birds of Paradise on the back. My father was playing Schumann on

the piano and I associated that, the music... I thought, I would love to

go and see these. It's been a lifelong quest of mine. When

I got shot and I was in hospital for several months, I thought, I've

missed it, I left it too late. Then I met Benedict Allen, and explorer,

who said I'm your man, I can take you there. He had had a relationship

with this particular tribe going way back? He lived with them for six

months and when so much further than most travellers or adventurers or

backpackers do. He underwent this horrendous rituals scarring that

they do. Nearly 200 cuts with a sharp bamboo blade, blood pouring

off him, to become one of them. This was going back to the tribe you to

live with. Back to his new family, in a sense. What happened to you,

you got sepsis... Not quite, sepsis is really serious. Basically, what

you saw there was me being covered over -- carried over pretty tough

terrain. It chafed away my backside. I got weakened muscles. It meant I

woke up with this jungle sore, the medic looked at it and that it was

quite serious. They flashed the picture to the medics in New

Zealand, they said, get him out now, if he gets sepsis, will only have 48

hours. Let's have a glimpse of that. It's a big wound and that's just

a conduit for infection. We're not going to get up

to the mountains at all, all because of this bloody pressure

sore that I've got. God, you know, I hate the way

the sort of curse of my injuries And yet not quite because he got

back there in the end. I think we will see the second half next week.

Yes, Friday on BBC Two. Thank you. At the end of this month,

Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe will step down as Commissioner

of the Metropolitan Police after a tumultuous period leading

Britain's biggest force. His supporters say he's done

a sterling job keeping the capital safe, so why,

as he leaves, is he so worried that Welcome. You used the phrase red

lights were flashing on the dashboard and crime was rising, what

crime and why? Morning. We have had a succession of years where crime

has come down. In London we have seen a reduction in crime of nearly

a fifth. Over the last 9-12 months we've seen it change around the

country. Why is it going up? Things like cybercrime, frankly there is

more of it. We are seeing more violence reported, to be fair some

of that is about better recording by the police. And we have seen more

sexual offences from the past reported, things that have happened

in the past that people didn't feel confident to report and have now.

We've also seen things like knife crime rise. This can be quite

worrying, obviously, people want to see crime fall. You said you and the

Mayor of London are worried you won't have the money to put enough

police on the streets of the capital and

presumably elsewhere. Every single Tory party conference, I listened to

speeches by ministers saying don't worry, there will be more bobbies on

the beat and the Conservatives, what's gone wrong? I suppose the big

thing is there's not enough money. After 2008 public spending went

down. Across the UK, the number of cops has come down from 147,000 to

120,000. We have maintained our numbers. But in the future... I

think it will be very hard because the money is still tight. The

demands are getting higher, pay increases and various other things.

And the likelihood is by 2020, less public spending, another ?3 billion

to come. We've seen some rises in crime and we are seeing the number,

the amount of money available to the police is reducing. Put it bluntly,

fewer police on the streets of London and higher crime in the

future? It's a risk, I can't say it will happen... This city is getting

bigger, 9 million people, and it's getting younger. The north-east of

England, more young men around. I'm not defeated by nature, I don't

think just because there is less money you have to fail. All I am

highlighting, to be fair to my successors, is it will be a more

challenging environment. We've done a lot in the last five years to make

the Metropolitan Police more efficient and modern. We've taken

out a lot of things from the past that were inefficient and kept our

32,000 courts. Less buildings, less managers, but we have lost about

4500 support staff. You have to do these things on their arm or hard

decisions to come. What are the hardest decisions still to come? The

main one is how do you find more savings question what you can only

make so many efficiencies. 70% of our costs are down to people, so you

have to look in that area, where we have already made savings, and we

have outsourced quite a lot commercial entities. As you head for

a happy retirement, is your final message to Amber Rudd and the Prime

Minister, think again on the money? I hope, I'm sure what the government

will do... We've had lots of support from this Prime Minister when she

was Home Secretary. They have always been supportive of the police and

tried our best -- their best to keep this in a good place. It is my job

as one of the top police officers in the country to say this is something

you have to continue to invest in. 12- ?13 billion of spend, you

compare it to the health service and military, they are far bigger

spenders. A relatively small amount. I can only make my case the cops. If

you don't have them, you have a problem. We are a hygiene factor,

you have to invest. As I leave I hope the legacy is a good one but

one that continues to needed to be invested in. On your watch apart

from the terrible killing of Lee Rigby, it's been relatively quiet on

the terrorism front. What is your message to people watching? Still a

severe level of threat officially. How worried are you? We should be

proud of what we have achieved so far. Western Europe, France, Belgium

and Germany, we have seen terrorist attacks get through. If you think

about what happened in November 20 15th in Paris, 200 badly injured,

this is what it looks like if they get through. What you have to get is

an excellent security service, which we have, and I would argue the best

of the world partnership between the security service and police. You

work a lot more closely with MI5 than you used to? Yes. We also have

networks across the country which is fantastic, the Metropolitan Police

leads that network and that gives you links into our communities. That

means people tell us stuff. The Nexis to link with the security

service, the links with a broad and the combined power of that is

immense. The best in the world. What did you feel what did you think when

you saw the Prime Minister put security cooperation, intelligence

cooperation on the table, as part of Brexit negotiation? I think the

political decision to leave Europe is not for me. What I believe will

happen in the future is it will be neutral effect, really, on security

cooperation. I genuinely think Europe and the rest of the world

needs the support of the security services in the UK. There is more of

a joint benefit in sharing information with French and Belgians

and no one wants our terrorists to go there or there is to come here.

Nobody will sit on their laurels and say, I tell you what, we're not

going to share data. We will share intelligence and we will keep people

safe. So it should already be part of these negotiations, on the table

as a counter to be moved around? That is a political decision. My

only point is I think in the future I'm confident the arrangements that

are put in place will keep us safe, as with Europe. It is fine for both

parties to do that. It is vital that anyone travelling between us doesn't

think they will have a safe haven on either side of the border. We will

make that work. We have in the past before Europe, we have during Europe

and I'm sure we will in future. When the Prime Minister was Home

Secretary she made you rein back on stop and search. What happened to

knife crime as a result? Not quite right chronologically. I

started to reduce stop and search before anyone asked for it. When I

arrived in 2011 there was a period of instability. We had riots in the

city. When I looked at it, one of the things that concerned me was the

high rate of stop and search. We were stopped searching about 1.3

million. I said we would reduce it and get better at it and we did. And

what has happened to knife crime? Initially it came down. It now gone

up again? Let me make my point little. We have reduce stop and

search by about 70% and reduced complaints it. For the first four

years we not only reduce the amount of stop and search, we saw that we

arrested more people, so becoming more effective at and we saw knife

crime dropped. It is only in the last year we have seen this change.

We've started to increase stop and search in a smart way, where the

problems up and started to get on top of some of these problems. If

you think stop and search is a good thing, you have to do it. But I

honestly think in 2011 we did it too much, we have reduced and I think we

have achieved a good outcome. Now we have just seen we need to tweak it

again. A little bit more. It's a heck of a job. What is your

reflection on the qualities needed by your successor? You have to deal

with American London, the Home Secretary, the Prime Minister, the

national media. -- the American London. If you are putting on paper

at the top qualities needed for your successor, what would it be? You

have to enjoy it, you have to want to do this job as a cop. I'm a

policeman. I will leave being a policeman and I will regret not

being a policeman. Your heart and location has to beat police officer.

You want to stop crime, arrest offenders. You have to think about

how to use resources wisely. I hope we have been efficient in the way we

have used our resources. You have to work with people Big Show whichever

political party, I don't care which party they are from. I have a duty

to work with that elected party and make it work. You have to be

flexible. This city is moving around us at a rate we've never seen. A

million people have arrived in the last ten years. You have to be

flexible. One final question, any big regrets? The operation Midland

issue must hangover you a bit? Of course there are occasions when I

wish we'd done better. That is one of them? It is. I've apologise, is

that I regret it and apologise to the individuals as well. In my time

of five and a half years we've investigated about 5 million crimes,

probably about 20 million phone calls. We do get it wrong sometimes.

I use this analogy, and I hope you're not a librarian, if

librarians get it wrong the books are in the wrong order, when we get

it wrong it really matters. I am glad we are disappointed

collectively when the British police get it wrong because we have high

standards. People all over the world will capitalise on the reason is we

act reasonably and professionally. One of the few forces that can

patrol the city but this without a gun and that is because we have the

support of the public. 32,000 cops cannot dominate a point a billion

people and nor should they. We should be proud of British police

and I am proud of it. The Bernard Hogan-Howe, thank you for talking to

us today. Coming up later this morning,

Andrew Neil will be talking to the Housing Minister Gavin Barwell

about his plans to increase the number of affordable

homes being built. And Ellie Price reports

on the haggling to come over That's the Sunday Politics

at 11am, here on BBC One. The Sunday Times this morning

describes it as a "savaging". Essentially, MPs have concluded

that the Department for Transport can't properly run the privatised

rail system so many Britons rely on. And this comes after months of utter

misery for Southern rail commuters. Another, the RMT, most

emphatically has not. Chris Grayling, the man

in the hot seat, joins me now. This is a very important report by

MPs and they have concluded that the transport department is not fit for

purpose when it comes to the rail system. Are you going to look again

at the way you handle franchises? Let's be clear what the problem is,

they are bursting at the seams, the number of passengers has doubled,

trains are full. That's a big challenge we have got to address. I

agree with a lot of what's in the report, it doesn't quite paint the

picture you have just done, it made sensible recommendations about how

to improve things, many of which I'm already doing. They say there is not

enough coordination between rail and the infrastructure operator, the

truck operator and the train companies. I agree with that, before

Christmas I set out plans to reunite track and trained step-by-step. And

they make a number of sensible suggestions, some of which I'm

doing. They say there have been recent circumstances which are

franchised operator might have been exposed to substantial risk... A

substantial degree of risk but the department chose to insulated. The

risk remains with the taxpayer. If you look at what has happened, and

you are talking about southern rail. The operator is effectively a

management contract rather than exposed to financial risk and the

reason for that is we are currently putting a large amount of money into

modernising London Bridge station. It's meant a huge amount of

disruption over the last few years and the judgment of the department

at the time was that the price we would pay to allow the private

sector to carry the risk of disruption as a result of those

works was greater than they wished to pay... Sorry, to a lot of people

watching this must seem bonkers. The private company gets the prophets

and the taxpayer takes the risk and the result has been catastrophic. It

is an exceptional circumstance because of the scale of

modernisation on the Thames Link programme, the biggest

infrastructure investment in our mainline railways for a long time.

Everywhere else on the railway people take financial risk, this was

a special case. Can at least we say this kind of contract will never be

done again? It's interesting because some, like the Mayor of London, are

saying that is precisely what we should be doing. I want to see the

private sector much more involved in the infrastructure in the future.

People don't understand why someone once the tracks and someone runs the

trains. They want one team running the railways, planning for the

future, and making sure there is one team dealing with problems when they

happen. Because the taxpayer was still paying, they still got their

profit which removed pressure on them during the strike some people

believe you wanted Southern Rail to break the union is because you were

going to spread the system right across the UK. No, it was done

because of the London Bridge investment. If you had seen the

management team at work in the last few months nobody would believe they

wanted this to happen and indeed the company has been taking a huge hit

reputation lay in the last few months because of the strike action

so I don't think you could say anybody wanted this. In the last

week, they reached agreement in the Aslef dispute and I very much hope

now the other union, RMT, will come back to the table and sort out an

arrangement that looks after its own members. My commitment to them and

everyone involved in this railway, I don't believe we need fewer people

on the railways. They may do slightly different jobs, but a

railway of its bursting at the seams in my view needs staffing. So

particularly on long-distance trains you need a guard as well. I travel a

lot on trains and you see disabled people, you see people struggling

and they need someone from the railway system who is not driving

the train to help them, you would agree with that? I am absolutely of

the view that we will need as many staff in the future providing

support to the customers as we have today. Their jobs may change, the

technology may change, but the customer service cannot change.

Another issue is HS2. Lord MacPherson said he thinks it is

running wildly over budget, it is simply too expensive. ?90 billion

could be spent much more effectively on other parts of the railway system

or the road system, isn't he right? We have a rail system that is

bursting at the seams, we have to take a decision about what we want

for the future. Do we want a rail system that can carry more

passengers? HS2 is all about that. It will mean thousands more commuter

seeds into Euston station in a peak day morning rush-hour. The same is

true in Birmingham, Leeds and Manchester. It's about creating

extra capacity. We cannot deliver a rail that is fit for the future

without extra capacity, and if you are going to build a railway line,

why wouldn't you build a state-of-the-art one? Because a lot

of people say it is already out of date. Let me ask about London

particular. What hope can you give to people in north London who are

terrified about the amount of pollution and disruption that will

be caused for 20 years? Bits of Camden will be wiped off the map. We

are currently working through a plan that I think will ease that impact.

I want to keep the impact of construction of HS2 as low as

possible to all communities affected up and down the route. You cannot

build something of this scale without any impact but we will do

what we can to minimise it. I want to ask, not long ago we were told

the way forward was diesel cars, now we know more about the particulates

put out by diesel cars and that they are seriously affecting the health

of a lot of people and we want to get rid of diesel cars. There is

some talk of a scrappage scheme, can you tell us anything about that? The

reality is we need to address the problem, there is a public health

issue. We started with diesel cars because we thought they would

produce carbon emissions, we now realise there is a knock-on effect.

The way we react cannot happen overnight but we have to work quite

quickly. There's a number of options we are looking at. Andrea Leadsom is

working through an air quality strategy which will be published in

due course, but we recognise we have to do this. We recognise we need

cleaner air in our cities and it is not something we can ignore. There

is so much talk about on Brexit, I want to pick particular issue. Isn't

it right that the end of this process, no matter what happens,

whether we get a deal or not, the House of Commons, which is supposed

to be sovereign, gets a proper vote? Theresa May has already promised

there will be a vote at the end of it but the legal position is that if

there is not a deal then we leave so the reality is we are going to go

into negotiation with a view to delivering, negotiating a deal that

is good for everyone. If there isn't a deal, shouldn't there be a vote

about what happens next? It is a vast issue for the entire country,

it will affect everyone in this country at that moment. The House of

Commons should have a proper say on that, surely? The House of Commons

voted for a referendum, we had a referendum, the people of the

country gave's of view, we are following that through, we go into

the negotiations with the full expectation that a sensible deal

will be agreed which works for both sides. We are their biggest

customer, I am confident Theresa May will deliver a good deal. But if

that doesn't happen, Parliamentary sovereignty hasn't been suspended

because of the Brexit referendum, it still matters, surely Parliament

should get a vote come what may at the end of this process? Theresa May

is committed to having a vote on that deal? If there is a deal? I'm

confident we will get a deal. If you listen to what European leaders are

saying, it is in all of our interests that is the case. You have

said during this interview you don't want to see fewer workers on the

railway in the future, any thing to say to the RMT union? I hope their

workers will return back to work as normal. I am not in this job to

slash the number of people on our railways. We need good customer

service and their members will be part of that? And a message for

Southern? I am grateful to the Southern team, the Aslef team, now

we need the same with the RMT and a railway that is back to normal.

Thanks for talking to us today. Join us from Southampton at ten,

when we will be debating Britain's aid to asylum seekers, then

transgender. Should everyone decide their own gender? Lastly, is child

poverty set to rise even further? Ten o'clock on BBC One.

Next week Chrissie Hynde and the Pretenders will

For now, I'll leave you with the wonderful Tift Merrit,

# He loves my mouth and he loves my hips

# He won't back down and he won't make plans

# He is as mean as a snake # It's my dusty old man

# Yes, he is as mean as a snake, he's my dusty old man

# He says loves me until the scars have gone

# Dusty old man # Dusty old man

# Here comes my dusty old man # The tears stained hard

# This world cannot hand you what you want

# All you can do sometimes is say damn!

# And give your loving into a dusty old man

# Give your loving to a dusty old man

# Say love me enough to write my wrongs

# Love me until the scars have gone # Love me enough to right my wrongs

# Love me until the scars have gone # Dusty old man, here comes my dusty

old man #. You should never turn down something

you've never done before.