12/02/2017 The Andrew Marr Show

Health, social care, the Speaker under siege.

But in the Commons, Theresa May seems almost unchallenged -

she's enjoyed bigger than expected majorities on Brexit and she has

Labour's deputy leader Tom Watson, is one of the party's

He's here to talk about leadership, the core vote and what he's called

Should Parliament be rid of its turbulent -

I'll be talking to the Leader of the Commons David Lidington.

The NHS also faces an existential crisis.

So says Robert Francis, chair of the inquiry

I'm joined by one of the world's greatest composers, John Adams,

And that timeless rocker Chrissie Hynde, back

Corbyn supporting journalist and commentator Rachel Shabi,

the Times columnist, David Aaronovitch and the

But first, the news with Ben Thompson.

The Commons Speaker, John Bercow, who was criticised

by some MPs for his remarks about President Trump last week,

is facing new pressure this morning about his impartiality.

A video has emerged of him declaring that he voted Remain

The film has been published by the Sunday Telegraph.

This may not be popular with some people in this audience -

I thought it was better to stay in the European Union than not,

partly for economic reason, being part of a big trade bloc,

and partly because I think we're in a world of power blocs,

and I think for all the weaknesses and deficiencies

of the European Union, it is better to be part of that big

The Royal College of Surgeons and the organisation

representing hospital trusts say thousands of

operations are being cancelled because of a shortage of hospital

They've made their warning in a joint letter to the Sunday Times.

NHS England said only 1% of operations were being cancelled.

14 retired bishops have written an open letter

to Church of England leaders, accusing them of suppressing

Last month, a Church of England report recommended a "fresh tone,

and culture of welcome and support" for them but re-asserted

The former bishops say that while the report spoke

about the pain of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender

people, it failed to reflect their authentic voices.

North Korea has fired a ballistic missile into the Sea of Japan.

The South Korean military said the flight distance

The White House said President Trump had been briefed about the launch.

The timing of the test coincides with the visit

of the Japanese Prime Minister, Shinzo Abe, to the US.

Mr Abe said the test was "absolutely intolerable".

The British Academy Film Awards will be presented tonight

The Hollywood musical, La La Land, has the most

I, Daniel Blake, Ken Loach's examination of life in the UK

benefits system, is shortlisted in five categories.

It's already won the coveted Palme d'Or Prize at the Cannes Festival.

The next news on BBC One is at One o'clock.

That mis-8 story arrived too late for the Sunday paper, there is the

front of the Sunday tell graph with the Bercow story, it was their

recording. A great picture from the extraordinary rugby match, Wales

against England, much covered today, it was Wales' right until the last

moment, an amazing game that. The Observer has a story you heard on

the new, the gay relationship row inside the Church of England and the

resulting by on the front-page. The Sunday Times, -- rugby. They have

got a story about a secret search for a new Labour leader they say,

this is based on internal party work, putting to polls of voters

possible few chur leaders, a different political story, the Mail

on Sunday Diane Abbott and David Davis had an encounter. We will talk

about that later on. Much more in the paper, but those are the

essences of the story. That story, John Bercow who seems to

believe that the rules of Parliamentary neutrality don't apply

to him. After coming after his outspoken remarks against President

Trump which I think brings Parliament into disrepute because he

is clearly under a duty to remain neutral, he has been found to be

speaking in relation to Brexit, and of course, this is has serious

implication because he will chair the debate in relation to the Brexit

bill and for him to say I voted to stay, I think puts, puts him in an

untenable position. There is about 12, I think Tory MPs who are already

lined up a motion against him, the question is does this story then

turn that 12 into many more and start a process that gives him an

impossible week? I think there is a moral obligation for him to stand

down. It very important that the Speaker is seen as being neutral and

the rules are clear, it says that he must remain politically impartial at

all times, if you want to be speaker and you get various privileges it is

your duty and responsibility to remain impartial. So a wry smile

over David's face. I think it is daft. Who possibly imagined that

John Bercow didn't have an opinion? Incidentally one of the candidates

who want him out is Jacob Rees-Mogg, no-one has the faintest idea want he

thinks about Brexit do they. You have an opinion, Andrew but you are

not allowed to voice it on this programme, but you will, when you go

to schools tell them what you think about things and you won't say I

can't have an opinion about it. We rely on you to do your job in the

studio, we rely on the speaker to do his job in the House of Commons, not

to be a political eunuch. The rules are clear, there is a reason behind

the rules, they are not there for the sake of it. He is chairing the

debates. It is important he is seen to be impartial, it doesn't say you

must remain impartial while chairing the debate, it is all time, if he

doesn't want the rules and express his opinion, he can have one, if he

wants to express it don't take on the role. Rachel. He may be

calculating that most MPs were pro-Remain and he relieses on the

support of the House of Commons, so what he said, would be unpopular in

the Sunday Sunday Telegraph and sections of the Conservative Party

but might be popular on the floor of the House itself. And irrelevant to

most of the population of the country who are more interested in

the second news item about the NHS. We will talk more about that later

in the show. Another big political story, the Labour Party. Something

or nothing David? It is very difficult to tell.

As far as, I have, a slight story to tell here which is that somebody

texted me this morning, late last night, so this story would be

appearing in the Sunday Times and I can tell you where it came from. I

said are you sure about it? They said yes, it comes from Jon Trickett

who was the campaign manager. I have to say.? We are been told, I can't

test it. He left this week and the suggestion is that in addition to

the normal polling that I do, the questions were asked of a focus

group about a number of top Labour people, top Labour people recently

Labour people and there was reaction taken to it. At one level this is a

further push in the long ago anyof the Labour Party, which is now

disintegrated, except for its capacity to fight some collections

in some places and so on. At another level it is an indicator of the fact

there is an incredible level of infighting going on, even among

people who used to be described as Corbynistas, it is clear to people

that he a realises his time is coming to an end. Rachel, described

you as a Corbyn supporter, is that still the case? I mean, think, look,

there were probably attempts to find a replacement for Corbyn since he

was elected, the first time round, that said, I do think it is case

that the people who did support him through two leadership elections

will now be starting to feel concern and I think that is primarily over

the way that Brexit was handled. Now, we know that the Labour Party

has particular difficulties around Brexit, because of the way it

breaks, in terms of being representative of both levers and

remainor, that puts it in a unique situation that isn't much to do with

Corbyn, but we know that is the country, that is who we are, the

Labour, Labour Party voters are who we are, and therefore, there is an

opportunity to be the leaders, to be the vision, to be the unity, that

this country really needs, and I know it is easy for me to sit here

around say, that is what should happen and the reality is very

difficult, but I think that in some way the Labour Party has squandered

an opportunity to be the vision that we need to get out of. I think the

Labour Party is in difficulty and those difficulties will remain,

whoever is in, whoever is the leader and those difficulties have to be

addressed. We see the question asked on the front-page of The Observer,

can anyone save the Labour Party? One doesn't want to be apocalyptic

or extreme about this, but is it possible, is it possible that we are

about to see the end of the Labour Party, as a national force? The big

thing is that the electoral system in enormously advantages parties

until a tipping point and the question is whether Labour passes

beyond the inning point, which is round about 28% and so on. After

that anything can happen. -- tipping point. We don't know the answer to

that yet. If Jeremy Corbyn is leader and the present situation continues,

and so on, until the next election through is a very real chance Labour

will dip below the tipping point at that point we can't tell who will

benefit from it. Let us turn to a story about one of Jeremy Corbyn 's

current supporters, Diane Abbott who was in the House of Commons after

the Brexit vote, and David Davis, the Brexit minister came up to her

and what happened is contested but he has had some ungallant texts now

leaked to the Mail on Sunday. Yes texts suggesting, he was blasted for

actually he wasn't, he, what happened is he was supposed to have

tried to kiss her after the Article 50 vote in Parliament and she told

him to F off. He says he was whispering in her ear, you can see

how that could be... The focus was not on his attempts to kiss her

which are completely inappropriate, but on her response, and look,

whatever we think, whatever you think of Diane Abbott's opinions, it

is the case that being black and female subjects her to a level of

abuse that is just off the scale, and David Davis is a man who is a

public figure and there is a responsibility for people like him,

to set a tone, which he has completely failed to do, in the way

he has behaved. You are missing the key point. It is wrong to hang David

Davis out to dry on what are private text, we aren titled to have private

thoughts and conversations, with our friends, and this isn't something he

has said in public, David Davis is not your typical Tory, he was

brought up by a single mum, he did very well in grammar school. He is

pushing Brexit through in a calm and controlled manner, we are all

entitled to you know, a zone of privacy. I think that you know, he

who has never texted in regret should cast the first stone here,

really. That is right. To say he is part of the peat yar I can is

ridiculous, he is a reasonable individual, he is a very dignified

person, that rarely gets involved and this is the problem, when you

are leaking, it is a private conversation, and I think we all

regret now and again having a private conversation, and I think we

should let the man be, as opposed to hounding him over you know, a few

words. I was state educated do you think I am entitled to kiss Andrew?

That is an issue. We don't want that on camera! Diane Abbott is very

experienced and she is able the look after herself. That doesn't mean she

should be subjected to this. This was private. If somebody did

something against her she is entitled to say take a hike and that

is what she did. Now to another man. Trump aid. Yes, this is one of a

couple of stories, big stories about the Trump visit, whenever that is

going to happen. People seem toe have accepted whatever they think

about Mr Bercow, that they won't be an address to particlement, and now

they are talking about whether or not Trump can come to London at all.

And so couple of things that are throated, that he will be sent to

Birmingham where there was a vote of 450,000 in the Brexit thing, and

Leave won by 3,000 because that supposed to the Brexit heartland.

And an insider, in the White House, not named, said what he would like

to do is to do a Poppy Appeal from Wembley Stadium or the Cardiff

Millennium Stadium, also a Remain area as it happens. I don't know

what the British Legion thinks about it but I don't think they are going

to be impressed. This is turning out to be an embarrassing story for the

Government, because the invitation has been offered an accepted. He is

coming but now because of what is going on they are moved it away from

London, this is supposed to make Trump feel warm and Britain and help

us get a trade deal. It is not going so well.

Even Donald Trump must be getting the message that Britain does not

want him to come. There has been overwhelming disapproval about this

state visit Doctor. The fact that Theresa May invited him over so

swiftly was seen as embarrassing and distasteful by many. In Poland it

has shown he is not welcome. I find it amusing idea that he will get a

better reception in Birmingham, one of our most cosmopolitan cities will

stop a reasonably quick response, Laura? I think people need to

understand you are not inviting Donald Trump over as your mate, you

are inviting him in his role as president of the United States. You

probably don't like another person but I think it is best not to trash

your national assets in public. I think what John Bercow did was

wrong. He is a key ally, you are inviting him as president of the

United States. You have to move on. We have to move on ourselves. David,

there is one last story from the Telegraph. Another of my roles is to

chair an organisation about freedom of expression. The Law Society is

recommending a possible change in the law, a new espionage act which

would have the effect of criminalising the possession of

official documents about the economy if it was passed. That seems to

Coney and? Laura passed out that a Law Commission idea is far from

stack to it but it is rather chilling prospect -- Laura pointed

out that this is far from a state law. Thank you all of you.

The weather - another desperately dreary week -

It wasn't even really snow, just a thin skitter.

Matt Taylor is in the BBC weather centre.

Thank you very much, Andrew. We will see some more snow this afternoon

across the hills of northern England. Maybe a thin coating for

other parts of north-east England. There will be an extra of rain,

sleet and snow here. On higher ground some snow but the rest of the

country will be dry. Another chilly day. It stays windy through tonight.

Mist and fog over higher ground. Lots of cloud in the northern half

of the UK to take us into Monday morning. In the south-west it will

get warmer through the night rather than colder. The stronger of the

winds on Monday, particularly for North coasts and around parts of

western Wales. A lot more sunshine on Monday to the west and south of

the UK. Eastern parts of Scotland and eastern England will hold on to

the cloud, the greatest of the conditions with some damp weather at

times. The chill will be going. While some of us are struggling to

get to 4 degrees today, by midweek we will have highs into double

figures. Andrea. So how bad are things

in the NHS really? Four years ago, Sir Robert Francis's

inquiry into the mid-Staffordshire hospital scandal found evidence

of "appalling suffering" by patients But this winter, pressures

on the NHS in England have reached a point which ministers

concede is "unacceptable". Welcome, Sir Robert. Good morning.

You have talked about the NHS being at a great level of stress. How bad

are things in your view? I think they are pretty bad. We have a

virtual storm of financial pressures, increased demand,

difficulties finding staffing and pressures on the service to continue

delivering. Some of that sounds quite familiar. Those were the

conditions pertaining at the time of Mid Staffordshire. Things have

changed since then. The fact we are talking about this today in the way

that we are, the secretary of state says

things are unacceptable shows there is a greater level of transparency.

People are talking about the problems in a way they were not

before. The system is running extremely hot at the moment. It is

only running with the superhuman efforts of the staff in the NHS. It

cannot carry on like that indefinitely without something bad

going wrong. To remind people, the mid-Staffs scandal was horrific,

people lying in their own faeces and people dying earlier than they might

have done, awful tales of cruelty and neglect, when you say we might

see in other mid-Staffs, isn't that overdoing it? There are better

safeguards in place in terms of transparency so I would like to

think that before we got to that stage, that the problems would come

to light. But I think the risks increase all the time. The pressure

keeps getting worse and we know that more and more chief executives are

saying they cannot meet their financial targets. More and more

hospitals haven't got staff they planned to have and things are being

done about all these things, but the faster the engine has to run, the

more effort that has to be made in repairing it, the greater the risks.

We seem to be stuck in a spiral of the stories where the government

says we are putting in enough money and then there is another scandal

and crisis and we go round and round and round. Do we think we are at the

point as a country where we need to think about a different way of

funding the NHS, a more consistent way of funding the NHS so we don't

have these recurring crises? I don't think the problems are entirely due

to money. Money can provide a sticking plaster and the history of

the NHS has been that over a number of years, whenever there is a crisis

more money is put in but we carry on doing things in the same way. Excuse

me, I need to put my thing back on. I am sorry, BBC technology. But we

have to revisit how we deliver the service. For instance, adult social

care is also in a state of crisis, and if we don't change the way we do

things, for instance, if we don't find better ways of avoiding people

having to come to hospital, we will carry on repeating these crises. I

am sorry about your earpiece, since I have got you here, can I ask you

about the condition of whistle-blowers, because a lot of

whistle-blowers feel in your report you did not give them enough

safeguards against frankly bullying bosses who did not want their

stories to come out and the rest of us depend on whistle-blowers to tell

us what is going on in the NHS. I have made my proposals, the

intention of which is to mean the raising of concerns is utterly

normal and I think those reforms are embedded. We now have a network of

freedom to speak up guardians around all hospitals. They should all have

one now, to whom people can go when they have a problem about raising

concerns. There is a national guardian to make sure the network

gets the support it needs. The problems will not be solved just by

helping individual whistle-blowers. We need to make sure that the staff

who currently say things are going wrong on this and two. They have the

solutions often to the problems they meet on a day-to-day basis and I do

believe that is necessary. Very interesting, thank you for joining

us. John Adams is revered by many

Americans as their greatest living composer, but accused

by a minority of anti-semitism. His work has divided critics,

provoked protests, but filled Adams turns 70 this week,

and believes that his best work He came into the studio recently,

and we discussed the controversies that have been attached

to his music, the political element to it, and why he won't be

writing "Donald Trump - I don't pick the subjects

to be provocative. is going to have any currency

as a living art form, it really has to address the great

themes of our lives. So I have an opera about terrorism,

the death of Klinghoffer, an opera about Communism

versus capitalism, The death of Klinghoffer,

which you mention, caused a kind of paroxysm of anger in parts

of America, and you felt that you were being

trailed around America and weren't entirely safe there for a while,

do you still feel that? I experienced with some people,

experience which is an attack basically on the internet,

and it was from people who didn't want all sides of a very delicate

issue, which in this case was Israel

and Palestine, to be aired. And Rudy Giuliani led protests

against the opera in public, and he now may well be a very

powerful figure in America, Well, Rudy Giuliani said

he had my operas on his iPod. I think he said in his best

New Yorkese, "John Adams is a good composer but his

politics are wrong." You know, we're in a period

when everything has been turned upside down, both here in England

and in the US, so it's after that period, do you have any

regrets at all about the opera Well, I think the addressing

of my opera was from people I mean, the great Supreme Court

Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg was in the Metropolitan Opera

Theatre that same night, and she herself is Jewish,

and she said she found nothing that was even remotely

anti-Semitic about it, that it was an opera that expressed

both sides of this But the family themselves,

the daughters in particular, They were, but the interesting thing

was they had collaborated earlier on two movies,

which told the story So I don't think there was any issue

of invading their privacy. Now as we have said, you have done

lots of big political operas and you have put Nixon

on to the stage. And it has to be said that

Donald Trump is a kind of operatic I wonder if there's any attraction

in doing Donald Trump, The Opera? Well, I don't think so,

because I think at the moment people it's a kind of, to me a very tacky

form of television entertainment, that he's employing

to run the presidency. I don't think it is

really interesting, going on in America at the moment,

and you're doing something Is that as much about the modern day

as it is about back in the 1890s? It's interesting for me,

because it's an opera that goes back into the past, the past

of my home state of California, and looks at a period in American

history where people were just consumed with greed,

and also with a kind of nativism and racism we have seen emerge over

the the last year in the Presidential campaign,

so I think, you know, the parallels between Silicon Valley

and between what's happening politically in the United States

will come to play in this new opera. John, you are now

the most successful, composer of what is called classical

music in the world, I guess. What is classical music,

how do you understand it, how do you describe your own

music for those people You know, my parents were both

jazz musicians, and, You saw a lot of rock and pop music

as you were are geowng up. Of course, I came of age during

the period of Sergeant Peppers You know, as Leonard Bernstein

showed, we in America, we make very little difference

between classical and pop. into the other and that is certainly

the case with my music. I must ask you, do you have

a lot more things that You know, my great inspiration

of course is Beethoven, because as he aged he got deeper

and his music became even better, and I feel that, you know,

what I have to write over the next ten or 20 years,

if I'm lucky enough, will be better than anything

I've done even before. John Adams, thank you very

much for talking to us. And John Adams will be conducting

the BBC Symphony Orchestra They'll be performing a concert

staging of his haunting These are dramatic times

in Parliament with convulsions over Brexit, Donald Trump and the future

of the Commons Speaker himself. I'm joined by the leader of the

House of Commons, David Lidington. Mr Lidington, do, did you personally

feel any anxiety when you saw what John Bercow said about his hostility

to Brexit, in public? Well, as I understand it, I have seen the TV

clip, this was in answer to a question he got at an open meeting

at Reading University, I think had this been before the referendum,

that yes, I would have had concern, I mean, he said what he said, every

member is responsible for what they say. What I can say is I have more

than six years under David Cameron, I never found the speaker was shy of

calling lots of people who are critical of the EU to ask me

difficult questions. So if you go on to website of the House of Commons

and you go to speaker, it says the speaker is the highest authority of

the House of Commons and must remain politically impartial at all times.

And there is is a lot of MPs in your own party who feel he has breached

that rule. Yes, the, there will be strong reaction among some MPs to

what he said, particularly after what he said about the proposed

state visit earlier in the week, ultimately, you know, the Speaker

has to command the confidence of the House of Commons as a whole. The

speaker has to have cross-party authority. These are live issues the

Commons will be debating for the next 18 months. Alex Shellbrook says

John Bercow's comments are in clear breach of the guidelines, laid down

on the independence of the speaker of the House and James Duddridge

says Speaker Bercow cannot come back to the chair, having expressed views

on Brexit. He is incapable of chairing Parliament as the speaker

on any European business, do you agree with that? That is their

opinion. It is a matter for members of the House. It is what is really

important is that the Government doesn't get involved in saying who

the speaker ought to be the speaker is the elected chairman of the House

of Commons as a whole, it's really, not the creature of Government.

Presumably he has embarrassed the Government and you over the Trump

visit. I assume you have had conversation about moving the haves

as a result of what happened? The Trump visit is still under

discussion between the two governments, as with any state visit

there is a range of variables, the diaries on both sides, what makes up

a good programme, when is the right times? Have you had discussion about

whether Donald Trump should address the two Chambers of Parliament? The

speaker, and I talked obviously to the Prime Minister, I talked to the

speaker from time to time about all sorts of thing, but the arrangements

for the state visits are conducted between Number Ten and Buckingham

Palace, arranging and the White House, on behalf of the President.

My understanding is those conversations are still ongoing,

when it comes to whether any state visit should address Parliament,

that doesn't happen with every state visit nor is there a set venue, it

is one of the options available. So what we know is that a lot of Tory

MPs are livid with him about Trump and about Brexit. My question is do

you think he can survive the week ahead? Do you think this will come

to a vote, there has been a motion of no confidence put down, will it

be voted upon? There is a motion been put down the day before we

broke for the half-term recess, it will be for all Members of

Parliament, individually, cross-party to decide how they

respond. How would you vote? I am a member of the Government, it is a

matter for the House as a whole. It sounds as if you can confidence in

Speaker Bercow. I said the government this is determineded this

is a matter for the House as a whole. It is important for the very

independence of the speaker's office that the speaker earthquake when

they started as a Conservative or Labour MP, whatever is independence

of Government. Speakers if anything should lean towards the people who

are not in Government. As John Bercow probe has done in the way he

has used questions which we find convenient. Your instinct is he

might win if it comes to a vote? He has strong supporters as well as

strong critics in the House of Commons. But we shall have to see

how members as a whole respond. There is some strange things been

said on behalf of the Government about the House of Lords. If the

House of Lords seeks to amend the Article 50 legislation, do you think

it should be challenged or everyone established, or reformed as some of

your colleagues seem to think? We have a constitutional process, the

fact that the exit bill has gone to the House of Lords, Article 50 has

gone to House of Lords with a majority of more than 300 from the

House of Commons, and unamended and frankly the amendments are all

defeated by majorities in excess, well in excess of the vt Gough's

normal majority, is a pretty powerful message to the Lords, they

have got a proper constitutional duty to examine that. Of course they

are free to propose and debate amendments. I hope they will take

full account of the strength of opinion from the elected House. It

sounds to me normal majority, is a pretty powerful message to the

Lords, they have got a proper constitutional duty to examine that.

Of course they are free to propose and debate amendments. I hope they

will take full account of the strength of opinion from the elected

House. It sounds to me as a coded threats, "I wouldn't go there if I

was you. Something nasty might happen to you." I am not round the

back alley waiting for a stray peer with a cosh in my hand. It is this,

there is under the constitutional arrangement there has been

acceptance, the Lords has a proper role as a scrutinising and reviewing

chamber, but ultimately, the Commons is the elected chamber, and behind

the Commons on this occasion stands the vote of a referendum. One final

question, we have heard from opposition leaders that the fight is

just about to start on the Brexit bill, over the next 18 months are

there going to be moments in the Commons where there will be

substantive and important votes on aspects of the negotiations as they

go forward or are we waiting for the vote at the end of the process? I

think that would, it depends crucially on what kind of amendments

are tabled and are found to be in order and debated and how people

respond to those, we have got the bill that will come in after the

Queen's Speech to repeal the European Communities Act and put EU

legal obligation on the UK basis, we will need a number of additional

pieces of statute, over the next couple of year, to give the British

authorities the power to do things that are at present done by the EU.

So there will be opportunities for votes. There will be plenty of

opportunity, obviously the precise nature depends on what the motions

are, what the amendments are. I talk to people who have been over in

Brussels looking at this from the other side. They say they think we

might get a frictionless, low tariff access to the single market. That

might be doable but on the other hand, the French and the Germans and

others are determined to get their so call divorce settlement, the

40-60 billion euros paid by the UK Government and that will be usual

issue, if the Tory MPs who think that is far too much and shouldn't

happen, will they get a chance to make their voices heard in the House

of Commons? There will be a vote on the final deal, the Prime Minister's

made that clear, I am sure that in the course of legislation and

frankly the statements we will have, there will be lots of opportunity to

probe issues connected with the negotiation, but the negotiations

haven't started yet. At the moment we are seeing initial positioning on

the side of the 27. They haven't met formally to discuss their opening

negotiating mandate so we have a long way ahead of it. David

David Lidington, thank you very much indeed.

Now - coming up later this morning, Andrew Neil will be talking

to Labour's leader in the House of Lords - as peers gear up

Plus the latest from the Stoke by-election campaign trail,

where Labour are being pushed hard by Ukip.

That's the Sunday Politics at 11 here on BBC One.

Few women in rock have had the musical and cultural

Arriving in London 40 years ago - just in time for punk -

she seized the opportunity to create a band that has stood

The Pretenders were a non-stop hit machine and the first Pretenders

album in almost a decade is one that's been getting

Before I talk to Chrissie - who's going to be playing for us later -

let's have a listen to the single, Holy Commotion.

# I just want, I want, I want to see the light.

# I just want, I want, I want to dance all night.

That was Chrissie Hynde and The Pretenders but there aren't many

left alive Martin Chambers, yes. Most of the band has gone Pete and

Jimmy died in 1983. I was watching a little film you made alongside this

where you make it clear that for you, the central thing in life is

still live performance. Absolutely. Yes. Why is that? Well, it's, it's

fun and that is what we do and what we kind of trained ourself to do

since we were teenagers, and that, our vocation, that is when it

happens when you are on the road. So what is different from a Pretenders

album to a Chrissie Hynde album? Nothing, really. I called it my last

album Chrissie Hynde because I was tired of defending the band ethos

which is what it is. So rock music, particularly punk was created by

16-year-olds and 17-year-olds, about their interest, lust and loneliness

and angst and so on. You are 65, still performing, what is it about

now? I don't think any of us saw it comes we would still be doing it

this long, when I was 24 I thought I was too old then punk came along and

I snuck in. It is about social commentary, personal, you know. What

life feels like. Yes, that doesn't change, but the world changes. We

are looking forward to hearing you later on. Thank you for coming in.

Tom Watson was last here on this chair in September 2015,

just after Jeremy Corbyn and he had stormed to victory

in Labour's leadership and deputy leadership contest.

His declared mission then - to get Labour fighting fit

I am still recovering from being in the same studio as Chrissie Hynde

there, I wasn't expecting that. We have had a tough 18 month, we had a

damaging second leadership election so we have an uphill struggle ahead.

The polls aren't great for us but I am determined now we have got the

leadership settled for this Parliament, that we can focus on

developing a very positive clear message to the British people in a

general election. All round the place there is a kind of withdrawing

roar of people no longer having confidence that you can win, are you

yourself convinced the Labour Party can win a general election in this

country? Yes, we could certainly win one, there is a lot of work to do,

we need to make sure we address the concerns of the British people in a

manifesto and we communicate our message more clearly than we have

been doing, but yes, there is nothing to say Labour can't win a

general election. I don't want to get into a debate where I say look

at this and that is fine, look at that that and that is fine. We must

look at one set of polling, possibly two. All the pollsters are showing

the same gap, a big 13 or 14 point gap. Very bad for an opposition

party at this point. Diane Abbott and others have said this gab will

be closed in a year. Over the course of the next year, with the

implication that if it isn't, something dramatic needs to happen,

do you agree with that? I am not sure if setting those tests about

when you, where you have to be in the polls are helpful, but not

particularly unhelpful for our leader Jeremy Corbyn, but yes, if

you want to win in a general election, you have to be leading the

polls. Things have to start to turn round You have to have policies you

can believe in and deliver on, that is is a big challenge for us. You

have said there is an existential crisis facing the party. This goes

back to Labour's history, it was created by an alliance between the

organised working class on the one hand and intellectuals and on the

other, they came together in a strange alliance, what it seems is

that Brexit is breaking that apart. I did, I said we had an excel ten

shall crisis last year when there was an impasse between our MPs and

Jeremy, but you know, I do still think that people need a Labour

Party, if you look at thele have as that underpin the Labour Party, the

idea of the empowering state, that we want to reduce inequality, we

want to give greater opportunity to even not just the few, those values

are still enduring and we have been here before, where the working class

and middle class people of Britain have been in alliance with each

other, in the 1945 election... The question is are they still in

alliance with each other? It is possible to have a manifesto that

addresses the aspirations of both sets of voter, this, after 1945 when

at Lee was leader there was concern? The trade unions we had too many

middle class MPs, I hope we can make sure that we, the general election

present the interest of both. This is about values and how people feel

about life, Jon Cruddas who did work said since 2005, voters who are

socially Conservative are the most likely to have deserted Labour, they

value home, family, and their country. And Corbyn's cosmopolitan

views on migration, the monarchy and Armed Forces are likely to have

exacerbated that. There is is a point there. Jobs and homes is the

bread and butter of politics and there are too many people... And

country. There is no doubt about that. We need to convince people

that we want this country to be great again, that if you live and

work hard you can eventually own your own home, or rent a home at an

affordable price, have a job that is satisfying and have a dignified

retirement. You know. Make bring great again.

Political parties who do not address those issues, that is what you have

to look at. What I am asking is do the northern and West Country voters

still feel attached to the party as they used to? Hope so because Labour

is still the party of aspiration, if you come from a humble origins you

will be able to get on in life with a Labour government. People still

remember the great Labour governments. The idea that they

don't need a party which challenges inequality and offers opportunity

and hope, this is not correct. These are often socially conservative

people in their views, they would stand for the national anthem, they

are traditionalist and they often feel the Labour Party does not

represent them. I would reject any notion where people would say the

Labour Party are not a patriotic party. We are very proud of our

country and proud of singing the national anthem. I am not sure of

that is the issue. The issue is, what are the challenges facing this

country? We are seeing people living in greater insecurity, the downside

of greater globalisation. There is a next wave, and Industrial Revolution

based around automation which will create more insecurity. I think if

Labour can craft a policy which addresses those issues then we can

have an exciting offer in the next general election and we can't win

that election. Around the Brexit vote, you were in a Leave

constituency and a lot of your voters voted Leave, do you agree

immigration is crucial to the vote? Immigration was certainly one of the

big issues in that referendum if not the issue. In that case what does

that do for voters who hear the leadership saying there should be no

upward limit or free movement might have to stay? We have to understand

what people tell us and when the negotiations take place we do need

to make sure that whatever replaces the freedom of movement arrangement

allows us to say we control our borders, we want to be able to count

people in and count them out, but also say it is completely

unacceptable to leave European workers in uncertainty. We were very

disappointed this week when the government did not give certainty

that current European workers could stay here. And also extremely

disappointed that the child refugees, that pledge which was a

pledge by David Cameron, has been breached. I think you have to strike

a balance. I know my colleague Diane Abbott who leads on this is in no

doubt that unless we have a compelling policy on immigration at

the next general election then we will not win. In a sense, one of

your colleagues are said to me to reason may get us off this hook

because after Brexit we will not have the free movement of people and

then we will have a chance to start again and have a socialist

immigration policy of our own that we can work through ourselves as the

Labour Party and in that context, I want to ask do you think overall

immigration in this country is too high or just right? I don't think

you can say that. London requires more liberal immigration policies

but there are other parts of the countries where immigration may be

putting pressure on schools and hospitals. That is why when we come

out of the European Union we could have an immigration policy which

addresses both of those issues. Perhaps a regional policy? Perhaps

indeed. These are nascent ideas. We are not robust to put them in a

manifesto yet but there is certainly debate going on in the Labour Party

right now and in wider circles. Your leader said after the Brexit vote,

the real fight starts now. What does he mean? I agree with him.

We have had a nine-month phoney war where the government have been

trying to get their act together. What the vote signalled last week

was the firing gun on the start of negotiations. Really? Emily

Thornberry was here last week and she laid down some great tough old

important Labour red lines. Every single one of them were obliterated

in the vote. You and others voted with the government. It seems like

the Battle is now over? I hope we can convince people that is not the

case. We demanded a bill in parliament so we could raise these

issues. The idea that we did not want to come out European Union

without environmental protection, without human rights. When Theresa

May is negotiating Europe we will be on her case day in, day out. She

seems to be riding high in the Commons. She had big majorities for

the Article 50 Bill. She seems unchallenged and hugely popular in

the country. When you say the fight starts here, a lot of people will

say where will this fight happen? How will it happen? What will be the

crunch moments? It is true we do not have a majority in the House of

Commons, otherwise we would be the government! But it is the case we

will not keep applying pressure on the government to get a Brexit which

benefits British workers. When and how? At the dispatch box, and TV

interviews like this and in two years' time Theresa May will have to

come back with the deal she has negotiated. There are a lot of

people on the other side of the divide who are passionate remainders

who are deeply disappointed and they feel the Labour Party who have

become cheerleaders and have no way of altering Theresa May's planning?

I reject the conclusion. I understand why people who believe in

the EU are disappointed but we are a Democratic party. I don't think we

had any choice but to respect the decision of the people in that

referendum. There were direct democratic decisions which have

trumped those of representative democracies. A referendum is a

brutal tool, it does not allow you to deal with nuance and complexity

after Woods but we have had to respect the decisions of the people

to fire the starting gun but that does not mean we will not campaign

for issues which we feel very important. When we spoke 18 months

ago, you were clear that collective responsibility is important and

seems to have collapsed in the Labour Party. All of those people

who rebelled will get a stiff letter which will not exactly terrified

them. We have had people who have left the Shadow Cabinet over this.

Was Clive Lewis right to resign? He was right to resign if he felt he

needed to vote against Article 50. I am not sure of his timing was

particularly helpful. He could have gone when the others went but that

was his decision. I respect the view that he wants to spend the next five

years campaigning for his constituency in Norwich and I

thought it was also helpful but he has ruled himself out of a

leadership bid because there was rampant speculation about that. Tell

us about the Jon Trickett story in the Sunday Times, that Labour have

been putting potential leadership candidates in front of a focus group

to test them out. I only saw this story last night. People tell me it

was not the case. It was not road testing leadership candidates, there

were a range of Shadow Cabinet members who were so-called road

tested. This is what we do in our normal run of parliamentary

considerations. I am glad they were not road testing me on the document

that was leaked to the paper! Let's have a look at the polling for

Jeremy Corbyn because we have to come to the elephant in the room.

There is the favourability rating. Theresa May way up there and Jeremy

Corbyn down here. On the group most likely to vote over 65, he is now

apparently on -100 and 13. Catastrophic rates. Doesn't there

come a point when it is your duty in the Labour Party to speak out?

Jeremy knows what he has to do to win an election and he will make

that decision. But let me say to hear, this is not the time for a

leadership election. He got a second mandate from our members last year.

He is now the established leader of the Labour Party. It is his duty to

lead the official opposition through a period of unprecedented economic

uncertainty and he will be tested in that. He has worked like a Trojan,

he has worked very hard, he has done everything he can think of doing and

it is still not working. How would you explain those figures? He have

to explain the figures. He is well aware of them but it is not for me

to judge him on a TV show like this, it is for him to make the decision.

Do you talk to him every day on this? I talk to him about a whole

range of issues and about everything we need to do to win the general

election. Do you refer to the depth of the problem? We talk about the

issues Labour needs to address. How important is it to the Labour Party

to hold Stoke and Copeland? Winning by-elections is obviously a good

thing for political parties. I do not know if we will win the

by-elections or not but the campaign group on the ground running a

campaign. They are quietly confident we will get a good result. Finally

and briefly if you make, for the opposition, do you have confidence

in John Bercow as the Speaker? And Mac absolutely. He is one of the

great Speakers that we have seen. He gives backbenchers their voice and

that is what we need. Jeremy Corbyn has said he will not

stand down unless there is a decent chance of another left candidate as

a leader and that means people want a change in the Labour rules so

fewer MPs will nominate bit you want to return to the old system where

all parts of the party are involved, explained. I think that is a good

starting point but I think we need to get the system of electing the

next lead out of the way before we start electing the next leader which

is part of the problem we had last September and I don't want to go

through that again. Thank you, Tom Watson.

Now a look at what's coming up straight after this programme.

Join us from Leicester at 10am where we will talk about Israel will stop

and is monogamy bad for marriage? See you at ten o'clock.

Next week I'll be talking to the actor, Tom Hollander -

star of Rev and the Night Manager - about his return to the stage

For now, we leave you with Chrissie Hynde and James Wallbourne.

From the new Pretenders album, this is Let's Get Lost.

# Let's get lost Let's get lost

# Let's get lost Let's get lost

# Ooh It's irreversible, non-negotiable

Before I met you, I was a civilised woman.