12/02/2017 The Andrew Marr Show

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Joining Andrew are David Lidington, Tom Watson and composer John Adams. Reviewing the papers are Laura Perrins, Rachel Shabi and David Aaronovitch. Plus music from Chrissie Hynde.

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Health, social care, the Speaker under siege.


But in the Commons, Theresa May seems almost unchallenged -


she's enjoyed bigger than expected majorities on Brexit and she has


Labour's deputy leader Tom Watson, is one of the party's


He's here to talk about leadership, the core vote and what he's called


Should Parliament be rid of its turbulent -


I'll be talking to the Leader of the Commons David Lidington.


The NHS also faces an existential crisis.


So says Robert Francis, chair of the inquiry


I'm joined by one of the world's greatest composers, John Adams,


And that timeless rocker Chrissie Hynde, back


Corbyn supporting journalist and commentator Rachel Shabi,


the Times columnist, David Aaronovitch and the


But first, the news with Ben Thompson.


The Commons Speaker, John Bercow, who was criticised


by some MPs for his remarks about President Trump last week,


is facing new pressure this morning about his impartiality.


A video has emerged of him declaring that he voted Remain


The film has been published by the Sunday Telegraph.


This may not be popular with some people in this audience -


I thought it was better to stay in the European Union than not,


partly for economic reason, being part of a big trade bloc,


and partly because I think we're in a world of power blocs,


and I think for all the weaknesses and deficiencies


of the European Union, it is better to be part of that big


The Royal College of Surgeons and the organisation


representing hospital trusts say thousands of


operations are being cancelled because of a shortage of hospital


They've made their warning in a joint letter to the Sunday Times.


NHS England said only 1% of operations were being cancelled.


14 retired bishops have written an open letter


to Church of England leaders, accusing them of suppressing


Last month, a Church of England report recommended a "fresh tone,


and culture of welcome and support" for them but re-asserted


The former bishops say that while the report spoke


about the pain of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender


people, it failed to reflect their authentic voices.


North Korea has fired a ballistic missile into the Sea of Japan.


The South Korean military said the flight distance


The White House said President Trump had been briefed about the launch.


The timing of the test coincides with the visit


of the Japanese Prime Minister, Shinzo Abe, to the US.


Mr Abe said the test was "absolutely intolerable".


The British Academy Film Awards will be presented tonight


The Hollywood musical, La La Land, has the most


I, Daniel Blake, Ken Loach's examination of life in the UK


benefits system, is shortlisted in five categories.


It's already won the coveted Palme d'Or Prize at the Cannes Festival.


The next news on BBC One is at One o'clock.


That mis-8 story arrived too late for the Sunday paper, there is the


front of the Sunday tell graph with the Bercow story, it was their


recording. A great picture from the extraordinary rugby match, Wales


against England, much covered today, it was Wales' right until the last


moment, an amazing game that. The Observer has a story you heard on


the new, the gay relationship row inside the Church of England and the


resulting by on the front-page. The Sunday Times, -- rugby. They have


got a story about a secret search for a new Labour leader they say,


this is based on internal party work, putting to polls of voters


possible few chur leaders, a different political story, the Mail


on Sunday Diane Abbott and David Davis had an encounter. We will talk


about that later on. Much more in the paper, but those are the


essences of the story. That story, John Bercow who seems to


believe that the rules of Parliamentary neutrality don't apply


to him. After coming after his outspoken remarks against President


Trump which I think brings Parliament into disrepute because he


is clearly under a duty to remain neutral, he has been found to be


speaking in relation to Brexit, and of course, this is has serious


implication because he will chair the debate in relation to the Brexit


bill and for him to say I voted to stay, I think puts, puts him in an


untenable position. There is about 12, I think Tory MPs who are already


lined up a motion against him, the question is does this story then


turn that 12 into many more and start a process that gives him an


impossible week? I think there is a moral obligation for him to stand


down. It very important that the Speaker is seen as being neutral and


the rules are clear, it says that he must remain politically impartial at


all times, if you want to be speaker and you get various privileges it is


your duty and responsibility to remain impartial. So a wry smile


over David's face. I think it is daft. Who possibly imagined that


John Bercow didn't have an opinion? Incidentally one of the candidates


who want him out is Jacob Rees-Mogg, no-one has the faintest idea want he


thinks about Brexit do they. You have an opinion, Andrew but you are


not allowed to voice it on this programme, but you will, when you go


to schools tell them what you think about things and you won't say I


can't have an opinion about it. We rely on you to do your job in the


studio, we rely on the speaker to do his job in the House of Commons, not


to be a political eunuch. The rules are clear, there is a reason behind


the rules, they are not there for the sake of it. He is chairing the


debates. It is important he is seen to be impartial, it doesn't say you


must remain impartial while chairing the debate, it is all time, if he


doesn't want the rules and express his opinion, he can have one, if he


wants to express it don't take on the role. Rachel. He may be


calculating that most MPs were pro-Remain and he relieses on the


support of the House of Commons, so what he said, would be unpopular in


the Sunday Sunday Telegraph and sections of the Conservative Party


but might be popular on the floor of the House itself. And irrelevant to


most of the population of the country who are more interested in


the second news item about the NHS. We will talk more about that later


in the show. Another big political story, the Labour Party. Something


or nothing David? It is very difficult to tell.


As far as, I have, a slight story to tell here which is that somebody


texted me this morning, late last night, so this story would be


appearing in the Sunday Times and I can tell you where it came from. I


said are you sure about it? They said yes, it comes from Jon Trickett


who was the campaign manager. I have to say.? We are been told, I can't


test it. He left this week and the suggestion is that in addition to


the normal polling that I do, the questions were asked of a focus


group about a number of top Labour people, top Labour people recently


Labour people and there was reaction taken to it. At one level this is a


further push in the long ago anyof the Labour Party, which is now


disintegrated, except for its capacity to fight some collections


in some places and so on. At another level it is an indicator of the fact


there is an incredible level of infighting going on, even among


people who used to be described as Corbynistas, it is clear to people


that he a realises his time is coming to an end. Rachel, described


you as a Corbyn supporter, is that still the case? I mean, think, look,


there were probably attempts to find a replacement for Corbyn since he


was elected, the first time round, that said, I do think it is case


that the people who did support him through two leadership elections


will now be starting to feel concern and I think that is primarily over


the way that Brexit was handled. Now, we know that the Labour Party


has particular difficulties around Brexit, because of the way it


breaks, in terms of being representative of both levers and


remainor, that puts it in a unique situation that isn't much to do with


Corbyn, but we know that is the country, that is who we are, the


Labour, Labour Party voters are who we are, and therefore, there is an


opportunity to be the leaders, to be the vision, to be the unity, that


this country really needs, and I know it is easy for me to sit here


around say, that is what should happen and the reality is very


difficult, but I think that in some way the Labour Party has squandered


an opportunity to be the vision that we need to get out of. I think the


Labour Party is in difficulty and those difficulties will remain,


whoever is in, whoever is the leader and those difficulties have to be


addressed. We see the question asked on the front-page of The Observer,


can anyone save the Labour Party? One doesn't want to be apocalyptic


or extreme about this, but is it possible, is it possible that we are


about to see the end of the Labour Party, as a national force? The big


thing is that the electoral system in enormously advantages parties


until a tipping point and the question is whether Labour passes


beyond the inning point, which is round about 28% and so on. After


that anything can happen. -- tipping point. We don't know the answer to


that yet. If Jeremy Corbyn is leader and the present situation continues,


and so on, until the next election through is a very real chance Labour


will dip below the tipping point at that point we can't tell who will


benefit from it. Let us turn to a story about one of Jeremy Corbyn 's


current supporters, Diane Abbott who was in the House of Commons after


the Brexit vote, and David Davis, the Brexit minister came up to her


and what happened is contested but he has had some ungallant texts now


leaked to the Mail on Sunday. Yes texts suggesting, he was blasted for


actually he wasn't, he, what happened is he was supposed to have


tried to kiss her after the Article 50 vote in Parliament and she told


him to F off. He says he was whispering in her ear, you can see


how that could be... The focus was not on his attempts to kiss her


which are completely inappropriate, but on her response, and look,


whatever we think, whatever you think of Diane Abbott's opinions, it


is the case that being black and female subjects her to a level of


abuse that is just off the scale, and David Davis is a man who is a


public figure and there is a responsibility for people like him,


to set a tone, which he has completely failed to do, in the way


he has behaved. You are missing the key point. It is wrong to hang David


Davis out to dry on what are private text, we aren titled to have private


thoughts and conversations, with our friends, and this isn't something he


has said in public, David Davis is not your typical Tory, he was


brought up by a single mum, he did very well in grammar school. He is


pushing Brexit through in a calm and controlled manner, we are all


entitled to you know, a zone of privacy. I think that you know, he


who has never texted in regret should cast the first stone here,


really. That is right. To say he is part of the peat yar I can is


ridiculous, he is a reasonable individual, he is a very dignified


person, that rarely gets involved and this is the problem, when you


are leaking, it is a private conversation, and I think we all


regret now and again having a private conversation, and I think we


should let the man be, as opposed to hounding him over you know, a few


words. I was state educated do you think I am entitled to kiss Andrew?


That is an issue. We don't want that on camera! Diane Abbott is very


experienced and she is able the look after herself. That doesn't mean she


should be subjected to this. This was private. If somebody did


something against her she is entitled to say take a hike and that


is what she did. Now to another man. Trump aid. Yes, this is one of a


couple of stories, big stories about the Trump visit, whenever that is


going to happen. People seem toe have accepted whatever they think


about Mr Bercow, that they won't be an address to particlement, and now


they are talking about whether or not Trump can come to London at all.


And so couple of things that are throated, that he will be sent to


Birmingham where there was a vote of 450,000 in the Brexit thing, and


Leave won by 3,000 because that supposed to the Brexit heartland.


And an insider, in the White House, not named, said what he would like


to do is to do a Poppy Appeal from Wembley Stadium or the Cardiff


Millennium Stadium, also a Remain area as it happens. I don't know


what the British Legion thinks about it but I don't think they are going


to be impressed. This is turning out to be an embarrassing story for the


Government, because the invitation has been offered an accepted. He is


coming but now because of what is going on they are moved it away from


London, this is supposed to make Trump feel warm and Britain and help


us get a trade deal. It is not going so well.


Even Donald Trump must be getting the message that Britain does not


want him to come. There has been overwhelming disapproval about this


state visit Doctor. The fact that Theresa May invited him over so


swiftly was seen as embarrassing and distasteful by many. In Poland it


has shown he is not welcome. I find it amusing idea that he will get a


better reception in Birmingham, one of our most cosmopolitan cities will


stop a reasonably quick response, Laura? I think people need to


understand you are not inviting Donald Trump over as your mate, you


are inviting him in his role as president of the United States. You


probably don't like another person but I think it is best not to trash


your national assets in public. I think what John Bercow did was


wrong. He is a key ally, you are inviting him as president of the


United States. You have to move on. We have to move on ourselves. David,


there is one last story from the Telegraph. Another of my roles is to


chair an organisation about freedom of expression. The Law Society is


recommending a possible change in the law, a new espionage act which


would have the effect of criminalising the possession of


official documents about the economy if it was passed. That seems to


Coney and? Laura passed out that a Law Commission idea is far from


stack to it but it is rather chilling prospect -- Laura pointed


out that this is far from a state law. Thank you all of you.


The weather - another desperately dreary week -


It wasn't even really snow, just a thin skitter.


Matt Taylor is in the BBC weather centre.


Thank you very much, Andrew. We will see some more snow this afternoon


across the hills of northern England. Maybe a thin coating for


other parts of north-east England. There will be an extra of rain,


sleet and snow here. On higher ground some snow but the rest of the


country will be dry. Another chilly day. It stays windy through tonight.


Mist and fog over higher ground. Lots of cloud in the northern half


of the UK to take us into Monday morning. In the south-west it will


get warmer through the night rather than colder. The stronger of the


winds on Monday, particularly for North coasts and around parts of


western Wales. A lot more sunshine on Monday to the west and south of


the UK. Eastern parts of Scotland and eastern England will hold on to


the cloud, the greatest of the conditions with some damp weather at


times. The chill will be going. While some of us are struggling to


get to 4 degrees today, by midweek we will have highs into double


figures. Andrea. So how bad are things


in the NHS really? Four years ago, Sir Robert Francis's


inquiry into the mid-Staffordshire hospital scandal found evidence


of "appalling suffering" by patients But this winter, pressures


on the NHS in England have reached a point which ministers


concede is "unacceptable". Welcome, Sir Robert. Good morning.


You have talked about the NHS being at a great level of stress. How bad


are things in your view? I think they are pretty bad. We have a


virtual storm of financial pressures, increased demand,


difficulties finding staffing and pressures on the service to continue


delivering. Some of that sounds quite familiar. Those were the


conditions pertaining at the time of Mid Staffordshire. Things have


changed since then. The fact we are talking about this today in the way


that we are, the secretary of state says


things are unacceptable shows there is a greater level of transparency.


People are talking about the problems in a way they were not


before. The system is running extremely hot at the moment. It is


only running with the superhuman efforts of the staff in the NHS. It


cannot carry on like that indefinitely without something bad


going wrong. To remind people, the mid-Staffs scandal was horrific,


people lying in their own faeces and people dying earlier than they might


have done, awful tales of cruelty and neglect, when you say we might


see in other mid-Staffs, isn't that overdoing it? There are better


safeguards in place in terms of transparency so I would like to


think that before we got to that stage, that the problems would come


to light. But I think the risks increase all the time. The pressure


keeps getting worse and we know that more and more chief executives are


saying they cannot meet their financial targets. More and more


hospitals haven't got staff they planned to have and things are being


done about all these things, but the faster the engine has to run, the


more effort that has to be made in repairing it, the greater the risks.


We seem to be stuck in a spiral of the stories where the government


says we are putting in enough money and then there is another scandal


and crisis and we go round and round and round. Do we think we are at the


point as a country where we need to think about a different way of


funding the NHS, a more consistent way of funding the NHS so we don't


have these recurring crises? I don't think the problems are entirely due


to money. Money can provide a sticking plaster and the history of


the NHS has been that over a number of years, whenever there is a crisis


more money is put in but we carry on doing things in the same way. Excuse


me, I need to put my thing back on. I am sorry, BBC technology. But we


have to revisit how we deliver the service. For instance, adult social


care is also in a state of crisis, and if we don't change the way we do


things, for instance, if we don't find better ways of avoiding people


having to come to hospital, we will carry on repeating these crises. I


am sorry about your earpiece, since I have got you here, can I ask you


about the condition of whistle-blowers, because a lot of


whistle-blowers feel in your report you did not give them enough


safeguards against frankly bullying bosses who did not want their


stories to come out and the rest of us depend on whistle-blowers to tell


us what is going on in the NHS. I have made my proposals, the


intention of which is to mean the raising of concerns is utterly


normal and I think those reforms are embedded. We now have a network of


freedom to speak up guardians around all hospitals. They should all have


one now, to whom people can go when they have a problem about raising


concerns. There is a national guardian to make sure the network


gets the support it needs. The problems will not be solved just by


helping individual whistle-blowers. We need to make sure that the staff


who currently say things are going wrong on this and two. They have the


solutions often to the problems they meet on a day-to-day basis and I do


believe that is necessary. Very interesting, thank you for joining


us. John Adams is revered by many


Americans as their greatest living composer, but accused


by a minority of anti-semitism. His work has divided critics,


provoked protests, but filled Adams turns 70 this week,


and believes that his best work He came into the studio recently,


and we discussed the controversies that have been attached


to his music, the political element to it, and why he won't be


writing "Donald Trump - I don't pick the subjects


to be provocative. is going to have any currency


as a living art form, it really has to address the great


themes of our lives. So I have an opera about terrorism,


the death of Klinghoffer, an opera about Communism


versus capitalism, The death of Klinghoffer,


which you mention, caused a kind of paroxysm of anger in parts


of America, and you felt that you were being


trailed around America and weren't entirely safe there for a while,


do you still feel that? I experienced with some people,


experience which is an attack basically on the internet,


and it was from people who didn't want all sides of a very delicate


issue, which in this case was Israel


and Palestine, to be aired. And Rudy Giuliani led protests


against the opera in public, and he now may well be a very


powerful figure in America, Well, Rudy Giuliani said


he had my operas on his iPod. I think he said in his best


New Yorkese, "John Adams is a good composer but his


politics are wrong." You know, we're in a period


when everything has been turned upside down, both here in England


and in the US, so it's after that period, do you have any


regrets at all about the opera Well, I think the addressing


of my opera was from people I mean, the great Supreme Court


Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg was in the Metropolitan Opera


Theatre that same night, and she herself is Jewish,


and she said she found nothing that was even remotely


anti-Semitic about it, that it was an opera that expressed


both sides of this But the family themselves,


the daughters in particular, They were, but the interesting thing


was they had collaborated earlier on two movies,


which told the story So I don't think there was any issue


of invading their privacy. Now as we have said, you have done


lots of big political operas and you have put Nixon


on to the stage. And it has to be said that


Donald Trump is a kind of operatic I wonder if there's any attraction


in doing Donald Trump, The Opera? Well, I don't think so,


because I think at the moment people it's a kind of, to me a very tacky


form of television entertainment, that he's employing


to run the presidency. I don't think it is


really interesting, going on in America at the moment,


and you're doing something Is that as much about the modern day


as it is about back in the 1890s? It's interesting for me,


because it's an opera that goes back into the past, the past


of my home state of California, and looks at a period in American


history where people were just consumed with greed,


and also with a kind of nativism and racism we have seen emerge over


the the last year in the Presidential campaign,


so I think, you know, the parallels between Silicon Valley


and between what's happening politically in the United States


will come to play in this new opera. John, you are now


the most successful, composer of what is called classical


music in the world, I guess. What is classical music,


how do you understand it, how do you describe your own


music for those people You know, my parents were both


jazz musicians, and, You saw a lot of rock and pop music


as you were are geowng up. Of course, I came of age during


the period of Sergeant Peppers You know, as Leonard Bernstein


showed, we in America, we make very little difference


between classical and pop. into the other and that is certainly


the case with my music. I must ask you, do you have


a lot more things that You know, my great inspiration


of course is Beethoven, because as he aged he got deeper


and his music became even better, and I feel that, you know,


what I have to write over the next ten or 20 years,


if I'm lucky enough, will be better than anything


I've done even before. John Adams, thank you very


much for talking to us. And John Adams will be conducting


the BBC Symphony Orchestra They'll be performing a concert


staging of his haunting These are dramatic times


in Parliament with convulsions over Brexit, Donald Trump and the future


of the Commons Speaker himself. I'm joined by the leader of the


House of Commons, David Lidington. Mr Lidington, do, did you personally


feel any anxiety when you saw what John Bercow said about his hostility


to Brexit, in public? Well, as I understand it, I have seen the TV


clip, this was in answer to a question he got at an open meeting


at Reading University, I think had this been before the referendum,


that yes, I would have had concern, I mean, he said what he said, every


member is responsible for what they say. What I can say is I have more


than six years under David Cameron, I never found the speaker was shy of


calling lots of people who are critical of the EU to ask me


difficult questions. So if you go on to website of the House of Commons


and you go to speaker, it says the speaker is the highest authority of


the House of Commons and must remain politically impartial at all times.


And there is is a lot of MPs in your own party who feel he has breached


that rule. Yes, the, there will be strong reaction among some MPs to


what he said, particularly after what he said about the proposed


state visit earlier in the week, ultimately, you know, the Speaker


has to command the confidence of the House of Commons as a whole. The


speaker has to have cross-party authority. These are live issues the


Commons will be debating for the next 18 months. Alex Shellbrook says


John Bercow's comments are in clear breach of the guidelines, laid down


on the independence of the speaker of the House and James Duddridge


says Speaker Bercow cannot come back to the chair, having expressed views


on Brexit. He is incapable of chairing Parliament as the speaker


on any European business, do you agree with that? That is their


opinion. It is a matter for members of the House. It is what is really


important is that the Government doesn't get involved in saying who


the speaker ought to be the speaker is the elected chairman of the House


of Commons as a whole, it's really, not the creature of Government.


Presumably he has embarrassed the Government and you over the Trump


visit. I assume you have had conversation about moving the haves


as a result of what happened? The Trump visit is still under


discussion between the two governments, as with any state visit


there is a range of variables, the diaries on both sides, what makes up


a good programme, when is the right times? Have you had discussion about


whether Donald Trump should address the two Chambers of Parliament? The


speaker, and I talked obviously to the Prime Minister, I talked to the


speaker from time to time about all sorts of thing, but the arrangements


for the state visits are conducted between Number Ten and Buckingham


Palace, arranging and the White House, on behalf of the President.


My understanding is those conversations are still ongoing,


when it comes to whether any state visit should address Parliament,


that doesn't happen with every state visit nor is there a set venue, it


is one of the options available. So what we know is that a lot of Tory


MPs are livid with him about Trump and about Brexit. My question is do


you think he can survive the week ahead? Do you think this will come


to a vote, there has been a motion of no confidence put down, will it


be voted upon? There is a motion been put down the day before we


broke for the half-term recess, it will be for all Members of


Parliament, individually, cross-party to decide how they


respond. How would you vote? I am a member of the Government, it is a


matter for the House as a whole. It sounds as if you can confidence in


Speaker Bercow. I said the government this is determineded this


is a matter for the House as a whole. It is important for the very


independence of the speaker's office that the speaker earthquake when


they started as a Conservative or Labour MP, whatever is independence


of Government. Speakers if anything should lean towards the people who


are not in Government. As John Bercow probe has done in the way he


has used questions which we find convenient. Your instinct is he


might win if it comes to a vote? He has strong supporters as well as


strong critics in the House of Commons. But we shall have to see


how members as a whole respond. There is some strange things been


said on behalf of the Government about the House of Lords. If the


House of Lords seeks to amend the Article 50 legislation, do you think


it should be challenged or everyone established, or reformed as some of


your colleagues seem to think? We have a constitutional process, the


fact that the exit bill has gone to the House of Lords, Article 50 has


gone to House of Lords with a majority of more than 300 from the


House of Commons, and unamended and frankly the amendments are all


defeated by majorities in excess, well in excess of the vt Gough's


normal majority, is a pretty powerful message to the Lords, they


have got a proper constitutional duty to examine that. Of course they


are free to propose and debate amendments. I hope they will take


full account of the strength of opinion from the elected House. It


sounds to me normal majority, is a pretty powerful message to the


Lords, they have got a proper constitutional duty to examine that.


Of course they are free to propose and debate amendments. I hope they


will take full account of the strength of opinion from the elected


House. It sounds to me as a coded threats, "I wouldn't go there if I


was you. Something nasty might happen to you." I am not round the


back alley waiting for a stray peer with a cosh in my hand. It is this,


there is under the constitutional arrangement there has been


acceptance, the Lords has a proper role as a scrutinising and reviewing


chamber, but ultimately, the Commons is the elected chamber, and behind


the Commons on this occasion stands the vote of a referendum. One final


question, we have heard from opposition leaders that the fight is


just about to start on the Brexit bill, over the next 18 months are


there going to be moments in the Commons where there will be


substantive and important votes on aspects of the negotiations as they


go forward or are we waiting for the vote at the end of the process? I


think that would, it depends crucially on what kind of amendments


are tabled and are found to be in order and debated and how people


respond to those, we have got the bill that will come in after the


Queen's Speech to repeal the European Communities Act and put EU


legal obligation on the UK basis, we will need a number of additional


pieces of statute, over the next couple of year, to give the British


authorities the power to do things that are at present done by the EU.


So there will be opportunities for votes. There will be plenty of


opportunity, obviously the precise nature depends on what the motions


are, what the amendments are. I talk to people who have been over in


Brussels looking at this from the other side. They say they think we


might get a frictionless, low tariff access to the single market. That


might be doable but on the other hand, the French and the Germans and


others are determined to get their so call divorce settlement, the


40-60 billion euros paid by the UK Government and that will be usual


issue, if the Tory MPs who think that is far too much and shouldn't


happen, will they get a chance to make their voices heard in the House


of Commons? There will be a vote on the final deal, the Prime Minister's


made that clear, I am sure that in the course of legislation and


frankly the statements we will have, there will be lots of opportunity to


probe issues connected with the negotiation, but the negotiations


haven't started yet. At the moment we are seeing initial positioning on


the side of the 27. They haven't met formally to discuss their opening


negotiating mandate so we have a long way ahead of it. David


David Lidington, thank you very much indeed.


Now - coming up later this morning, Andrew Neil will be talking


to Labour's leader in the House of Lords - as peers gear up


Plus the latest from the Stoke by-election campaign trail,


where Labour are being pushed hard by Ukip.


That's the Sunday Politics at 11 here on BBC One.


Few women in rock have had the musical and cultural


Arriving in London 40 years ago - just in time for punk -


she seized the opportunity to create a band that has stood


The Pretenders were a non-stop hit machine and the first Pretenders


album in almost a decade is one that's been getting


Before I talk to Chrissie - who's going to be playing for us later -


let's have a listen to the single, Holy Commotion.


# I just want, I want, I want to see the light.


# I just want, I want, I want to dance all night.


That was Chrissie Hynde and The Pretenders but there aren't many


left alive Martin Chambers, yes. Most of the band has gone Pete and


Jimmy died in 1983. I was watching a little film you made alongside this


where you make it clear that for you, the central thing in life is


still live performance. Absolutely. Yes. Why is that? Well, it's, it's


fun and that is what we do and what we kind of trained ourself to do


since we were teenagers, and that, our vocation, that is when it


happens when you are on the road. So what is different from a Pretenders


album to a Chrissie Hynde album? Nothing, really. I called it my last


album Chrissie Hynde because I was tired of defending the band ethos


which is what it is. So rock music, particularly punk was created by


16-year-olds and 17-year-olds, about their interest, lust and loneliness


and angst and so on. You are 65, still performing, what is it about


now? I don't think any of us saw it comes we would still be doing it


this long, when I was 24 I thought I was too old then punk came along and


I snuck in. It is about social commentary, personal, you know. What


life feels like. Yes, that doesn't change, but the world changes. We


are looking forward to hearing you later on. Thank you for coming in.


Tom Watson was last here on this chair in September 2015,


just after Jeremy Corbyn and he had stormed to victory


in Labour's leadership and deputy leadership contest.


His declared mission then - to get Labour fighting fit


I am still recovering from being in the same studio as Chrissie Hynde


there, I wasn't expecting that. We have had a tough 18 month, we had a


damaging second leadership election so we have an uphill struggle ahead.


The polls aren't great for us but I am determined now we have got the


leadership settled for this Parliament, that we can focus on


developing a very positive clear message to the British people in a


general election. All round the place there is a kind of withdrawing


roar of people no longer having confidence that you can win, are you


yourself convinced the Labour Party can win a general election in this


country? Yes, we could certainly win one, there is a lot of work to do,


we need to make sure we address the concerns of the British people in a


manifesto and we communicate our message more clearly than we have


been doing, but yes, there is nothing to say Labour can't win a


general election. I don't want to get into a debate where I say look


at this and that is fine, look at that that and that is fine. We must


look at one set of polling, possibly two. All the pollsters are showing


the same gap, a big 13 or 14 point gap. Very bad for an opposition


party at this point. Diane Abbott and others have said this gab will


be closed in a year. Over the course of the next year, with the


implication that if it isn't, something dramatic needs to happen,


do you agree with that? I am not sure if setting those tests about


when you, where you have to be in the polls are helpful, but not


particularly unhelpful for our leader Jeremy Corbyn, but yes, if


you want to win in a general election, you have to be leading the


polls. Things have to start to turn round You have to have policies you


can believe in and deliver on, that is is a big challenge for us. You


have said there is an existential crisis facing the party. This goes


back to Labour's history, it was created by an alliance between the


organised working class on the one hand and intellectuals and on the


other, they came together in a strange alliance, what it seems is


that Brexit is breaking that apart. I did, I said we had an excel ten


shall crisis last year when there was an impasse between our MPs and


Jeremy, but you know, I do still think that people need a Labour


Party, if you look at thele have as that underpin the Labour Party, the


idea of the empowering state, that we want to reduce inequality, we


want to give greater opportunity to even not just the few, those values


are still enduring and we have been here before, where the working class


and middle class people of Britain have been in alliance with each


other, in the 1945 election... The question is are they still in


alliance with each other? It is possible to have a manifesto that


addresses the aspirations of both sets of voter, this, after 1945 when


at Lee was leader there was concern? The trade unions we had too many


middle class MPs, I hope we can make sure that we, the general election


present the interest of both. This is about values and how people feel


about life, Jon Cruddas who did work said since 2005, voters who are


socially Conservative are the most likely to have deserted Labour, they


value home, family, and their country. And Corbyn's cosmopolitan


views on migration, the monarchy and Armed Forces are likely to have


exacerbated that. There is is a point there. Jobs and homes is the


bread and butter of politics and there are too many people... And


country. There is no doubt about that. We need to convince people


that we want this country to be great again, that if you live and


work hard you can eventually own your own home, or rent a home at an


affordable price, have a job that is satisfying and have a dignified


retirement. You know. Make bring great again.


Political parties who do not address those issues, that is what you have


to look at. What I am asking is do the northern and West Country voters


still feel attached to the party as they used to? Hope so because Labour


is still the party of aspiration, if you come from a humble origins you


will be able to get on in life with a Labour government. People still


remember the great Labour governments. The idea that they


don't need a party which challenges inequality and offers opportunity


and hope, this is not correct. These are often socially conservative


people in their views, they would stand for the national anthem, they


are traditionalist and they often feel the Labour Party does not


represent them. I would reject any notion where people would say the


Labour Party are not a patriotic party. We are very proud of our


country and proud of singing the national anthem. I am not sure of


that is the issue. The issue is, what are the challenges facing this


country? We are seeing people living in greater insecurity, the downside


of greater globalisation. There is a next wave, and Industrial Revolution


based around automation which will create more insecurity. I think if


Labour can craft a policy which addresses those issues then we can


have an exciting offer in the next general election and we can't win


that election. Around the Brexit vote, you were in a Leave


constituency and a lot of your voters voted Leave, do you agree


immigration is crucial to the vote? Immigration was certainly one of the


big issues in that referendum if not the issue. In that case what does


that do for voters who hear the leadership saying there should be no


upward limit or free movement might have to stay? We have to understand


what people tell us and when the negotiations take place we do need


to make sure that whatever replaces the freedom of movement arrangement


allows us to say we control our borders, we want to be able to count


people in and count them out, but also say it is completely


unacceptable to leave European workers in uncertainty. We were very


disappointed this week when the government did not give certainty


that current European workers could stay here. And also extremely


disappointed that the child refugees, that pledge which was a


pledge by David Cameron, has been breached. I think you have to strike


a balance. I know my colleague Diane Abbott who leads on this is in no


doubt that unless we have a compelling policy on immigration at


the next general election then we will not win. In a sense, one of


your colleagues are said to me to reason may get us off this hook


because after Brexit we will not have the free movement of people and


then we will have a chance to start again and have a socialist


immigration policy of our own that we can work through ourselves as the


Labour Party and in that context, I want to ask do you think overall


immigration in this country is too high or just right? I don't think


you can say that. London requires more liberal immigration policies


but there are other parts of the countries where immigration may be


putting pressure on schools and hospitals. That is why when we come


out of the European Union we could have an immigration policy which


addresses both of those issues. Perhaps a regional policy? Perhaps


indeed. These are nascent ideas. We are not robust to put them in a


manifesto yet but there is certainly debate going on in the Labour Party


right now and in wider circles. Your leader said after the Brexit vote,


the real fight starts now. What does he mean? I agree with him.


We have had a nine-month phoney war where the government have been


trying to get their act together. What the vote signalled last week


was the firing gun on the start of negotiations. Really? Emily


Thornberry was here last week and she laid down some great tough old


important Labour red lines. Every single one of them were obliterated


in the vote. You and others voted with the government. It seems like


the Battle is now over? I hope we can convince people that is not the


case. We demanded a bill in parliament so we could raise these


issues. The idea that we did not want to come out European Union


without environmental protection, without human rights. When Theresa


May is negotiating Europe we will be on her case day in, day out. She


seems to be riding high in the Commons. She had big majorities for


the Article 50 Bill. She seems unchallenged and hugely popular in


the country. When you say the fight starts here, a lot of people will


say where will this fight happen? How will it happen? What will be the


crunch moments? It is true we do not have a majority in the House of


Commons, otherwise we would be the government! But it is the case we


will not keep applying pressure on the government to get a Brexit which


benefits British workers. When and how? At the dispatch box, and TV


interviews like this and in two years' time Theresa May will have to


come back with the deal she has negotiated. There are a lot of


people on the other side of the divide who are passionate remainders


who are deeply disappointed and they feel the Labour Party who have


become cheerleaders and have no way of altering Theresa May's planning?


I reject the conclusion. I understand why people who believe in


the EU are disappointed but we are a Democratic party. I don't think we


had any choice but to respect the decision of the people in that


referendum. There were direct democratic decisions which have


trumped those of representative democracies. A referendum is a


brutal tool, it does not allow you to deal with nuance and complexity


after Woods but we have had to respect the decisions of the people


to fire the starting gun but that does not mean we will not campaign


for issues which we feel very important. When we spoke 18 months


ago, you were clear that collective responsibility is important and


seems to have collapsed in the Labour Party. All of those people


who rebelled will get a stiff letter which will not exactly terrified


them. We have had people who have left the Shadow Cabinet over this.


Was Clive Lewis right to resign? He was right to resign if he felt he


needed to vote against Article 50. I am not sure of his timing was


particularly helpful. He could have gone when the others went but that


was his decision. I respect the view that he wants to spend the next five


years campaigning for his constituency in Norwich and I


thought it was also helpful but he has ruled himself out of a


leadership bid because there was rampant speculation about that. Tell


us about the Jon Trickett story in the Sunday Times, that Labour have


been putting potential leadership candidates in front of a focus group


to test them out. I only saw this story last night. People tell me it


was not the case. It was not road testing leadership candidates, there


were a range of Shadow Cabinet members who were so-called road


tested. This is what we do in our normal run of parliamentary


considerations. I am glad they were not road testing me on the document


that was leaked to the paper! Let's have a look at the polling for


Jeremy Corbyn because we have to come to the elephant in the room.


There is the favourability rating. Theresa May way up there and Jeremy


Corbyn down here. On the group most likely to vote over 65, he is now


apparently on -100 and 13. Catastrophic rates. Doesn't there


come a point when it is your duty in the Labour Party to speak out?


Jeremy knows what he has to do to win an election and he will make


that decision. But let me say to hear, this is not the time for a


leadership election. He got a second mandate from our members last year.


He is now the established leader of the Labour Party. It is his duty to


lead the official opposition through a period of unprecedented economic


uncertainty and he will be tested in that. He has worked like a Trojan,


he has worked very hard, he has done everything he can think of doing and


it is still not working. How would you explain those figures? He have


to explain the figures. He is well aware of them but it is not for me


to judge him on a TV show like this, it is for him to make the decision.


Do you talk to him every day on this? I talk to him about a whole


range of issues and about everything we need to do to win the general


election. Do you refer to the depth of the problem? We talk about the


issues Labour needs to address. How important is it to the Labour Party


to hold Stoke and Copeland? Winning by-elections is obviously a good


thing for political parties. I do not know if we will win the


by-elections or not but the campaign group on the ground running a


campaign. They are quietly confident we will get a good result. Finally


and briefly if you make, for the opposition, do you have confidence


in John Bercow as the Speaker? And Mac absolutely. He is one of the


great Speakers that we have seen. He gives backbenchers their voice and


that is what we need. Jeremy Corbyn has said he will not


stand down unless there is a decent chance of another left candidate as


a leader and that means people want a change in the Labour rules so


fewer MPs will nominate bit you want to return to the old system where


all parts of the party are involved, explained. I think that is a good


starting point but I think we need to get the system of electing the


next lead out of the way before we start electing the next leader which


is part of the problem we had last September and I don't want to go


through that again. Thank you, Tom Watson.


Now a look at what's coming up straight after this programme.


Join us from Leicester at 10am where we will talk about Israel will stop


and is monogamy bad for marriage? See you at ten o'clock.


Next week I'll be talking to the actor, Tom Hollander -


star of Rev and the Night Manager - about his return to the stage


For now, we leave you with Chrissie Hynde and James Wallbourne.


From the new Pretenders album, this is Let's Get Lost.


# Let's get lost Let's get lost


# Let's get lost Let's get lost


# Ooh It's irreversible, non-negotiable


Before I met you, I was a civilised woman.


Joining Andrew are leader of the House of Commons David Lidington, deputy leader of the Labour Party Tom Watson and composer John Adams. Reviewing the papers are Laura Perrins of The Conservative Woman, journalist Rachel Shabi and columnist for The Times David Aaronovitch. Plus music from Chrissie Hynde.