29/01/2017 The Andrew Marr Show


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So, what do you do when the President of the United States


grabs you by the hand and starts to squeeze?


You keep gamely smiling on,


remembering your inner vicar's daughter.


There may be quite a lot of brave smiling still to come.


And with everybody arguing about Trump's latest act -


a ban on millions of Muslims entering the US -


I'm joined by Cabinet Minister David Gauke


to talk about that and this week's Brexit votes in the Commons,


subjects too for the Leader of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron


in our latest 2017 leader's interview.


And that Labour veteran, one-time leader Harriet Harman


will be looking back at 30 years in politics.


There's going to be a Labour rebellion this week,


I'll also be joined by one of the men


Donald Trump wants to ban from travelling to America.


He was born in Iraq and yes, he's political.


But as Theresa May may recall, he's also a Conservative MP.


I've been talking to the actor Matthew McConaughey.


You may remember him as a bit of a Hollywood hunk,


but in his new film he looks appalling, playing, quite


An international feel to our review of the news.


I'm joined by former Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis,


former British ambassador in Washington


and to keep us all in order, Amanda Platell of the Daily Mail.


All that after the news, read this morning by Ben Thompson.


Downing Street has issued a statement saying Theresa May does


"not agree" with Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees


and that she would study the impact on British citizens.


The Prime Minister has faced criticism for not condemning the US


President's actions during her trip to Turkey yesterday.


President Trump has refused entry to citizens of seven mainly Muslim


countries and suspended the US refugee programme for four months,


Donald Trump says his ban on foreign nationals travelling to America


from seven Muslim countries is, in his words,


But the order has provoked protests at airports across the country.


Inside, lawyers worked to free passengers being detained.


Some were already on their way in when the president made the order.


a 60-year-old Iranian-American broke down after learning his brother,


who'd come to visit him, wasn't going to be allowed in.


In Iran, they do something like this,


but we didn't know we're going to have the same situation here.


And my brother didn't do nothing wrong, no prison.


On the election trail, Donald Trump suggested what he said


of Muslims entering the United States.


He denies the measures he has now brought in,


which include suspending the entire refugee programme,


It's working out very nicely, and we're going to have a very,


very strict ban and we're going to have extreme vetting,


which we should have had in this country for many years.


But campaigners have already launched a series of legal actions


to block his plans and a judge has now temporarily halted


moves to deport people travelling with visas


With immigration central to Donald Trump's campaign


Living standards are likely to fall this year, according to a report


The think tank claims a mini-boom between 2014 and 2016 has now ended.


The organisation warns that household incomes are now growing


at their slowest rate since 2013 because of rising inflation


French voters will choose today who is to be the socialist candidate


Benoit Hamon - who was sacked from the government in 2014 -


won the first round of the selection process.


He's seen as a left wing rebel and he faces the former prime


Wildfires in Chile have killed at least 11 people and left


Firefighters and volunteers have been tackling more than a hundred


separate fires in southern and central Chile, half


Police have detained more than 20 people suspected of arson.


Princes William and Harry have announced plans to put up


a new statue of their mother, Diana, Princess of Wales,


The princes said the monument would mark her "positive impact"


They said they would help pay for the statue, which will be placed


in the grounds of her former home of Kensington Palace.


I'll be back with the headlines just before ten o'clock.


The atmosphere in the Observer newsroom is reaching boiling point.


We catch the week, they are taking their editorials and putting them in


big type on the front page. Here is this week's. Trump cannot be trusted


- he is like nothing that has gone before. He is ignorant, prejudiced


and vicious in ways that no American leader has been. We know what they


think. And they have caught Theresa May's overnight statement, saying


she does not agree with the ban on migrants. Lots of tabloids are going


on the Diana story, perhaps in relief at something lighter to go


on. The Sunday Telegraph has interestingly put the camper van at


the bottom of the front page, rather unimpressed by it. A beautiful


photograph of Sir John Hurt and a story about the Troubles inquiry.


The Sunday Times has a different Trump story. They say Trump and


Prince Charles are in a climate row. When President Trump comes to the


UK, he doesn't want to meet Prince Charles because he doesn't want to


be lectured about climate change, it says. They are also following up


their Trident story from last week. There is also a story about the


transgender lobby getting their way in the NHS so that we can't call


pregnant patients mothers any more, it claims. We will talk about that


and much more. First of all, Sir Christopher Wren, a man who has seen


the Anglo-American relationship up close -- Sir Christopher Meyer. What


do you make of the coverage and would you make of Theresa May's


demeanour? The coverage has been good for her. If I was in Downing


Street, I would be pleased with the way the story has been written up.


She had a very narrow tightrope to walk to make this visit successful


to Washington, and she walked it pretty well. She was able to invest


some new substance into the schmaltzy concept of a special


relationship. She got warm words on trade and the special relationship


and on Nato. Nato was a big win. To have Donald Trump said he was 100%


behind the organisation means it is less toxic about trying to improve


relationships with Putin. Trump was being nasty about Nato, but nice


about Putin. The Sunday Times also gives Theresa May some good


coverage, in your view. It gives her very good coverage indeed. It thinks


she has been extremely clever not only in the way she dealt with


Trump, but in her speech to the Republican convention the night


before, which led out her prospectus, a lot of which was


critical of Trump. And you have the New York Times on your iPad, I will


let you hunt for that. They have picked up the overnight story about


Theresa May saying she is against this ban on Muslim countries. This


shows that if you are Theresa May, you have to realise you will get


surprises out of Donald Trump. You may think the fix is in during your


visit, but then when you are in Turkey, up comes this thing. She was


slightly caught off guard. Amanda, you have a splash in the Mail on


Sunday. Yes, some months ago, when Brexit happened, if you had told me


that Prime Minister Theresa May would be having her hand squeezed by


President Donald Trump, I would have said you are barking, and there it


is for us all to see. Most extraordinary. It surprised a lot of


people who didn't think she had it in her. She has extraordinary


support. And this is a new word for us. It is a very apt term for one of


his ailments, bathmophobia. It comes from the Greek word for gradient. He


has a fear of gradualism. This is extremely apt for this man. Fear of


going downstairs All Blacks? Fear of slopes. This is relevant because


this is allegedly why he grabbed Theresa May by the hand. He wanted


help going down the stairs. Here's a bit too tactile. My fear is that


when he comes for the royal visit, you will grab the Queen's hand. My


lord, what will happen then? But all the Queen has to do is avoid


staircases and gradients. I don't know which is better. Does he grabs


Theresa May out of affection, or does he grab her because he fears he


is going to fall over? The latter is better. It is too intimate. They are


like lovers. Too many hands. Let's move on. Would the papers managed to


get the Theresa May overnight statement? The only one I saw was


the Observer. But going back to what you were saying about the support


from the papers. Tony Parsons, famous columnist, lifelong Labour


supporter, he has done his whole column in the Sun saying we should


all be glad that Trump is in the White House. It is very supportive.


It is saying we have to do deals with this man. I would never have


expected that. Even more astonishing is that the Labour supporting Sunday


Mirror says of Theresa May, the date went well. She is on a roll. We all


saw that awkward moment in the Turkish press conference where she


was asked three times whether she supported Muslim bands. She's so


cautious. You have interviewed her. Her default position is caution. The


statement overnight said she did not support the ban. But it was very


calmly and quietly expressed. And of course, Yanis, all of these


negotiations are about hard business deals. You have taken a story from


the Observer about the ?100 million fighter jet deal. The Turks are


going to build their own fighter jets, but they will be made in the


UK. The most astonishing part about this is the very low price. 100


million is nothing. To sell your soul to the devil, sell it at a good


price. Do you regard Erdogan as the devil? I regard the Turkish regime


to be increasingly nasty. The fact that you have special police forces


entering the editorial offices of newspapers, and driving journalists


out at gunpoint to change the headlines for the next morning, is


something you should be worried about. It is not usual that people


are concerned about journalists, so that is nice to hear. If we allow


something like this to happen while business proceeds as if as usual,


then we are all going to be doing a great deal of harm to our own


societies. A question for you all. It has been said that after Brexit,


Britain so badly needs to do deals with other countries around the


world that we can no longer speak plainly, we have to be a bit


mealy-mouthed when it comes to people like Donald Trump or


President Erdogan, or the Saudis and the Chinese. Is there anything in


this? There is a cartoon to that effect. The cartoon is brilliant.


Theresa May is typically taking an extremely pragmatic transactional


attitude towards British foreign policy. There are things we need to


do, and we cannot afford the luxury of interfering in other people's


internal affairs by stating whether we approve or disapprove on human


rights grounds or ethical grounds on things they are doing. She has said


she disagrees with what Donald Trump is doing. But more particularly,


given that Nadhim Zahawi is coming on later, she has said that where


British dual nationals are accepted by -- affected by this, Britain will


stand up for them. Yanis, you have also picked up the Labour rebellion


this week in the Observer. We have the Article 50 legislation required


now in the House of Commons, and Labour MPs are trying to amend it,


some of them to stop us triggering article 50. For the benefit of full


disclosure, I campaigned in this country against Brexit. But having


said that, article 15 must be supported by anyone who believes in


democracy. -- article 50. We fought this referendum and lost and we have


to accept it. The focus now has to fall on the interim agreement. If


Labour MPs are serious about maintaining the essence that is


significant regarding the relationship between this country


and the European Union, this is what they should focus on, not the


triggering of article 50. How can you say to the people in northern


England, you voted, and we are going to do to you what Brussels did to


the Irish? Remember, with the Lisbon Treaty, the Irish voted against and


that they were asked to vote once more until they got it right. They


should be focusing on the fact that there is no mandate from the


referendum for ending freedom of movement, for ending the customs


union. This is all stuff that should be discussed. There was an implied


mandate. This is your view, but the Labour side should argue against it.


The strongest argument for Brexit from where I am sitting is restoring


national sovereignty to the House of Commons. Well, restore it. Say that


the next House of Commons which will be fought in an election that will


give a mandate to numbers of Parliament to have this discussion


will decide what the interim agreement will be, or what comes


after it. But to say that the 23rd of June has already settled the


issue, that freedom of movement is no longer an issue, that it has been


settled, that is something that does not lose out of the 23rd of June


edition. I don't think Theresa May is in any


hurry to have a snap election. Tom Watson. This is extraordinary, we


have seen two more Shadow Cabinet members resign at the weekend and


Tom Watson is saying, don't worry, if you resign from the shadow job we


will have you back in a few months' time and it is just extraordinary.


You are a rebel with a cause, then when you don't have the course you


come straight back in again but that's because they have so few


people in the Shadow Cabinet anyway. Another big story, Jackie Kennedy in


the Telegraph, everybody will be watching this film over the next few


weeks. It is a sweet story, coinciding with the film Jackie,


which reveals that after the assassination of JFK, his widow


Jackie Kennedy decided that she would not accept the offer of


marriage by the then British ambassador, and she wrote him a very


sweet but slightly mysterious card in response to this offer of


marriage, saying, "I wish I could give you the most precious thing


that belonged to him, as precious as your friendship was to him nothing


tangible could ever expressed that so please access this with all of my


love." That was the bulk of poems. It is very suspicious. I've never


got any kind of message like that from the White House. Amanda, we


have to keep cracking on but there is the other story of the Diana


statue. All of the tabloids, almost, have this across the front page,


with photographs. It is a big year for William and Harry of course.


Yes, and it appears they will get highly involved in celebrating the


anniversary of her death. For those who liked, loved or respected Diana,


there is an old train in Hyde Park which was disclosed to and a


disservice to her memory and I'm glad they are doing it. Yanis, you


have disposed of your monarchy. We sent them to you. And Prince Charles


will give them a lecture on climate change, if they come over. This is


perhaps the most significant topic, and would be a major blow to


humanity's prospects. So, who does Donald Trump


really want to keep out of America with this new ban,


already being challenged Well, one example is my next guest,


Conservative MP Nadhim Zahawi, who has made his anger and upset


clear on social media overnight. First of all, why are you banned


from America as you understand it? Because as the order says, aliens


from this country include people whose country of origin would have


been Iraq, as is mine. I was born in Baghdad. Last year when the visa for


free travel was taken away from dual nationals the advice on the US


embassy was to go for an interview so my wife and I both had to go. It


was uncomfortable but understandable because clearly the United States


needed to tighten up its immigration policy and of course visa


restrictions as part of that. I was granted a ten year visa after the


interview, as was my wife, and our sons are university in America so we


need to travel there by -- quite a bit. How does it make you feel that


Donald Trump doesn't want you in America? I don't think I have felt


as discriminated as when I was in little school. For the first time in


my life last night I felt discriminated against, it is


demeaning, it is sad. One of my sons had a life-threatening illness last


year, spent two months in hospital in Princeton University Hospital but


we couldn't have travelled if we were going through the same thing


now. There are many other human stories that we have been hearing


about from the community in the UK, and thereafter thousands of people


who were born in Iraq, either Kurdish or are or any other ethnic


group, who are now British citizens. We are equal as British citizens,


and I'm proud that Stratford maven voted in Nadhim Zahawi as a member


of Parliament. And your passport says that Her Majesty 's government


will look after us abroad, as does mine, so it is down to the British


government to fight on behalf of British citizens? I'm reassured by


Theresa May's statement because she clearly says she will make a


representation on behalf of every citizen. I am a politician, it is


the people who don't have the platform that I have who could get


stuck in an airport for hours with no for their own. They should be


looked after. You made your displeasure clear, tweeting a


wonderful quote of Winston Churchill. An appeaser is one who


feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. You talking about?


Anyone who turns the other way. I don't think we should look away when


President Trump makes a mistake. Theresa May made it very clear in


that brilliant speech to Congress, when she talked about going after


the ideology of Daesh, not just on the battlefield but the ideology.


This plays into the ideology. It is counter-productive. It flings petrol


on the fire. Think about the refugees, put aside my position but


the refugees from Syria and elsewhere. America has been the


cradle of humanity and care and freedom for them in the past. The


message to them today is you are not welcome and that is cruel. You must


have watched the press conference in Turkey where Theresa May was asked


three times she condemned the American decision and she didn't


reply, how did that make you feel? My Prime Minister quite rightly was


being cautious. It was developing story. I didn't know any details


until late yesterday that this would apply to myself and my wife. I think


her being careful is a good thing, but she was also very candid with


President Trump. She spoke very candidly and clearly in that speech


to both houses when she talked about us making this an opportunity to


lead the world. Dare I say even President Trump can think again on


this. At the moment he is due to come to this country and address


both Houses of Parliament, including yourself. Do you think Parliament


should think again on that? I'm hoping he will reconsider this


position, it is hugely discriminatory. US law doesn't allow


for discrimination by nationality or religion so I hope you will


reconsider this, and it is counter-productive in the fight


against Daesh. I hope you will reconsider. Thank you for coming to


talk to us today. Absolutely nothing positive


to say about it this week. This is surely


the nadir of the year. Things can only get


better...they better had. Chris Fawkes is in


the weather studio. The important thing to remember is I


am not to blame. Some have had a glorious start to the day, this was


the scene in Aberdeenshire, showing the sunrise a little over an hour


ago. For many, it is a drive morning. We have rain coming into


southern Wales and south-west England but there is uncertainty how


far north it will spread. Across the north east Midlands, East Anglia,


the rain perhaps not arriving here until after dark. Those clear skies


overnight will allow temperatures to get away with the risk of ice


returning. The northern England and Wales a lot of cloud, drizzle, mist


and hill fog patches, and with those murky conditions it is mild in


Plymouth with frozen conditions again in the north. We are looking


at a gloomy picture for tomorrow, patchy rain working into Wales and


south-west England as we go through Monday afternoon. The best of any


sunshine across Scotland and north-east England, and that sets


the scene for what will be quite an unsettled week of weather. Low


pressure is in charge, bringing spells of rain, becoming windy


intentionally with severe gales, but often it will be on the mild side.


With that, it is back to you, Andrew.


If you are not to blame, I guess the deity is.


My next guest has been at the heart of Labour politics


The ecstatic highs and the crashing lows, triumphs and disasters,


Harriet Harman - an MP since 1982 and a former Cabinet minister


She's best known, perhaps, for her passionate commitment


She's about to publish her political memoir, A Woman's Work,


Speaking of women at work, what did you make of Theresa May and the


delicate line she had to tread in Washington, cosying up to Donald but


also keeping their distance from him? It was important as a British


Prime Minister that she was over there to meet the new president but


I was apprehensive because we know that Donald Trump is misogynist,


xenophobic, he stands against so many of what I think we now regard


as British values so I was very dismayed when I saw her holding his


hand. There is a special relationship but she has got to be


strong in that relationship, not led by him, and of course I was


horrified when he announced this ban on people from Muslim countries.


Three times, she said, it is nothing to do with me. It is to do with us,


as we all know. She obviously has to be careful as Prime Minister but she


needs to be strong as well. I was really disappointed, I hope she has


learned some lessons. She has said overnight that she is against this


policy. But she has got to learn that she has got to stand up for


things and not be cautious and come out against something when she is


pushed. The problem is that because we are in a vulnerable position


economically, looking free trade deals with other countries, that


must not make her feel weak. She has still got to be politically strong


despite the fact we are in a moment of economic vulnerability. It is a


difficult tightrope to walk because we do need these deals. Basically


she can rethink what I regard as a reckless distancing our economy from


the economies of Europe and she needs to rethink that because of


Donald Trump's protectionism. Let's talk about your book, A Woman's


Work, and you charge your story going forward, in the early years


you experienced some gross sexism, some dreadful moments. There's been


headlines about a story that happened to you as a young student


at York University. What happened? I was called in by my tutor, and he


said, you are borderline 2:1, 2:2, but it will be a 2:2 unless you have


sex with me. I was horrified and I ran off. The idea that men in


positions of authority who can actually shape your future life can


actually abuse their power for sex and that I didn't even say anything


to anybody about it because I thought nobody would listen to what


I said, that he would deny it, they would take his side, he was in a


position of authority. That was par for the course then, and that is


still a battle we have got to fight now. He is now dead, his widow is


dubious about this and says she doesn't believe it could happen and


so forth. I haven't said anything about it until now because it was


horrible, and I was risking... I had earned that level of Mark, why


should I be downgraded if I didn't... It was a threat. I said it


happened now, having not said anything about it before, because I


think we need to look at how we make sure those people who are put in


that position feel able to complain and those who do that are held to


account so I'm telling you, it happened. The idea that somehow I


would invent it, why would I? Let's move further forward. You talk about


the early years in the House of Commons, a very macho, beery late


night atmosphere. You fight your way up, become Secretary of State and


then comes the pivotal moment in your career, you stand for election


as deputy leader and slightly to your surprise you become deputy


leader. You think it is a great triumph, then you walk off the


podium and meet the former leader, John Prescott, what happens next? I


said to him as I was walking onto the stage to be pronounced as deputy


leader, I hope I can count on your advice and your help as I become


deputy leader. He had been deputy leader himself for ten years. He


said, no, I won't help you. That is a pity but what it was... You have


been elected deputy leader over Alan Johnson, the nearest rival, and all


previous deputy leaders would become Deputy Prime Minister, and Gordon


Brown didn't make you Deputy Prime Minister, why do you think that was?


He should have done. And looking back, I should have made him,


because it is important for a party of equality which had never had a


woman Prime Minister to at least have a woman Deputy Prime Minister.


But the story in my book is my story, but it is also the story of


the whole of the women's movement, the irresistible force of the


women's movement reaching the immovable object of power, and we


did make changes. And you say in the same period, you were pushed to the


end of the Cabinet table, that attempt to push women to one side


still going on at the top of the Labour Party, even after you had had


your success being elected there. Do you think there is still residual


sexism across all parties at the top? I think there is. We have made


great progress with 100 Labour women MPs that changed the face of


politics, which changed Parliament and government. But there was still


a struggle, as there is now. We shouldn't be complacent, because


there is a backlash and there are those who never agreed with the


progress we have made and who wants to turn the clock back. And that


kind of virus of misogyny that is coming from the States with Trump,


we have to stand up against that. We have further to go before we are


truly equal. The last thing we want is to be pushed back. We have some


very outspoken female Conservative MPs from your part of the country,


saying they are not going to - or other Labour MPs, like tulips are


Dick and others, saying they will not vote for article 50. Much to my


regret, I fought hard for us to remain. But we lost the referendum


and the important thing is to accept that and to move on and to argue


about the terms on which we go forward. This is a dangerous moment


in terms of the negotiations and we need to make sure we have is close


ties as possible with Europe and don't cut ourselves off


economically. So you would say to Labour MPs from strongly pro-Remain


constituencies, hold your nose and vote to trigger article 50, whatever


you think, because that is the democratic thing to do? I would say,


accept that result. When you are in opposition, very often, there are


only bad choices and it is one of those situations. My constituency


voted to remain, but actually, I think they recognise that we lost


that vote in June. We now need to make the best of the situation we


are in and that means voting for article 50, but then try to make


sure the terms are as least worst as possible. Harriet Harman, thanks for


coming in to talk to us. Now with news of what's coming up


straight after this programme, Join us at ten in Glasgow, when we


will be asking if Scotland is still owed a say over Brexit. Then


universal basic income - should we all get money from the state? And in


this city which profited from the slave trade, should today's


generation make amends for its past? See you at ten on BBC One.


A little after midnight this morning, a modest,


almost apologetic message popped into the inbox of almost everyone


It came from Number Ten and said what the Prime Minister wasn't able


to say in public yesterday, that the British Government


does not agree with Donald Trump's travel ban.


David Gauke is Chief Secretary to the Treasury.


The Prime Minister said it was wrong. Why is it wrong? Well, it is


divisive. Theresa May, when she was Home Secretary, said this when the


policy was announced by candidate Trump, that it is divisive. There


are all sorts of practical difficulties with it. I have


enormous sympathy with those who are affected by it. And obviously, there


is a particular concern as Nadhim Zahawi was pointing out, to have


emerged over the course of yesterday with the implications it may have


for British nationals. He also said that this would pour petrol on the


flames of Muslim extremism and have exactly the opposite result to what


Donald Trump wanted. Do you agree? I think there are real risks with it


being counter-productive. It is worth pointing out that we don't


have that policy. We wouldn't contemplate going down the route of


a ban in this way. We have a very different approach to it. So we


disagree with your position President Trump has set out. What


happens now? We have the British nationals engaged and so forth. Are


we going to make representations to defend the interests of British


people caught up in this? Yes, we will representations where British


nationals are caught up with this. We clearly have a role to play in


terms of representing them, and we have made that clear. This is an


indication of why it is important that we have a relationship with the


new president. It is worth appreciating that if we are to have


influence, the Americans are an important partner for us on


international security and on the economy and we need to have


influence. So what was going on in that notorious Turkish press


conference, do you think? As Home Secretary, as you say, she has been


following this story for a long time. Then this big announcement


comes and causes outrage around the world, and she can't feel she can


say anything in public about it. Is that simply because we have to make


nice to the Americans? I think Nadhim put his finger on it. The


Prime Minister is not issued from the hip of politician. She wants to


understand what the implications are. She had been in a series of


meetings with President Erdogan, and she wants to see the briefing and


understand it and then will respond to that. There was with pressure to


respond within a new cycle and so on. The important is that we


disagree with it and think it is wrong. Isn't it the case that


because of Brexit, I know you were a Remain campaigner, but after Brexit,


we so need new deals with the Americans, the Turks, the Saudis,


the Chinese, that far from being able to stand up and speak truth to


power and say what we really think, we now have to be mealy-mouthed as a


country? I don't think that is right. There is scope for us to


disagree, sometimes privately rather than publicly, but there is scope


for us to disagree as candid friends. Whether we were in this


circumstance or not, the United States is a hugely important partner


for us for national security. Wanting to ensure that the US remain


engaged in Nato, putting Brexit aside, is an important objective for


us. The fact that the Prime Minister was able to go to the United States


on Thursday and Friday to do a press conference with the president and


talk about the 100% commitment to Nato is to our advantage. So as a


general rule, it is good to engage with countries like the US. You said


to put aside Brexit. Let's not put aside Brexit. Let's come to the


legislation coming to the House of Commons this week. Is that


commendable? Yes. And the government accept amendments to that? -- is it


amendable? There will be an opportunity to debate. But we have


to remember what this legislation is about. It is about triggering


article 50. During the referendum campaign, no one was talking about


whether there would be need for legislation. Jeremy Corbyn was


saying we should trigger it straightaway. But we respect the


Supreme Court judgment and there has to be legislation. We are bringing


that forward. But this is simply about whether we respect the result


of the referendum. We don't know which amendments will be taken by


the Speaker and so on, but there is a lot of support for guaranteeing


the rights of EU citizens in this country. In a sense, a parallel


question to the Trump refugee ban is guaranteeing the rights of


individuals. A lot of your fellow Conservative MPs are passionate


about that. If there was an amendment supported by the


opposition parties and enough Tory MPs to go through the House of


Commons, that would not be a disaster for the negotiations, would


it? We want to guarantee the position of EU nationals who are


here. The Prime Minister recently made it clear that that was a


priority area for her and she would like to progress that as quickly as


possible. But we also have to protect the positions of UK


nationals in the EU. If we could get this issue out of the way and


protect both EU nationals and UK nationals, we would love to do that.


But you don't want to deal just with EU nationals here and then find that


UK nationals are left in a vulnerable position. We want to deal


with the two together. A lot of people will have seen on television


those pictures of refugees who, because of the Trump ban, are now


caught in Chile and very unpleasant refugee camps with nowhere to go, no


future. Do you think in these circumstances, it might be a


generous and properly British thing to do to offer more of them a place


in this country? We have to remember what we are already doing. We are


the biggest financial benefactor to refugee support in that area. We are


putting in huge sums of money. The US are ahead, but certainly per


capita, we are the biggest contributor. It is early days, but


we sometimes underestimate the contribution we are already making


in terms of helping refugees, as it is right that we do so. One last


question. We have pulled out of your top. This is infuriating a lot of


scientists who see it as an incomprehensible decision. Why are


we pulling out of amendable? -- pulling out of Euratom? The


important point is that we need to see if there are aspects of the


nuclear industry that can work with other partners, and we will see if


that is what we can do. Thank you for coming in.


Having made his name in Hollywood as a romantic lead,


Matthew McConaughey is a chameleon who's transformed himself


beyond recognition on screens big and small, from Dallas Buyers Club


to True Detective to his latest cinema outing, Gold,


a true tale about a wildcat prospector with a dream, a dream


which takes him to the jungle and to the brink of madness.


We caught up just over a week ago on the day when another man


with a liking for gold - Donald Trump -


McConaughey shared his thoughts on President Trump too.


Now, sometimes, not that often, but sometimes the prospecting guards


are having a party at the pearly gates and we are really,


We dig down in there and we find a little metal comb...


Well, he literally has a dream one night, a literal dream that he knows


the man who knows where the gold is in Indonesia.


And he met this man nine years prior.


Hawks a watch, takes a one-way ticket to Indonesia and makes


And it feels a little bit like a kind of Texan morality tale.


The guys who get the dirt under their fingernails,


who sweat, do the real work, and then you've got Wall Street,


the snooty East Coast establishment trying to turn them over,


Absolutely, I mean, it was one hell of a coup for him


to even find the gold, but then the next problem occurs


As we all know, once you make it, how do you hang onto it?


Well, Wall Street, now that he's got all the gold,


The second half of the tale is, how do you hang on to what you have?


And he fights, we won't give it all away, but there is another huge


twist of course at the end of it and he doesn't prove


to be the great hero, the great visionary that perhaps


we thought he was all the way through the film.


So, this is quite an unfamiliar kind of story where the hustler,


the entrepreneur, is the hero of the story.


What, for you, is the underlying message?


The underlying message would be, there's a difference


This is, for Kenny Wells, the guy I played, for the real man,


this was not about greed, this was about a dream,


chasing it down, to pull it off, to stick it to the men,


It turns a lot of people mad in this, more people


than you probably think going into it, or maybe less by the


You're not sure who is really mad at the end.


For quite a lot of this film, I thought this is,


not Trump's America, but this is small-time central


redneck America sticking one up to the snooty East Coast


This is the guy that nobody bets on, this is like millions


of people in the world, not billions, that get out of bed


every day and don't have a ticket to the American dream.


They are going to have to hustle their way in the back


door, the side door, or come down the chimney


and be an entrepreneur and make it their own way,


OK, so every single American actor or arty type who comes over


to London dumps on Trump, you all completely hate him.


Do you think it's time that maybe Hollywood and the cultural elite


He's our president, and it's very dynamic and as divisive


of an inauguration in time that we've ever had.


At the same time, it's time for us to embrace,


shake hands with this fact and be constructive with him


So, even those who most strongly may disagree with his principles


or things he's said and done - which is another thing,


we will see what he does compared to what he had said -


no matter how much you even disagreed along the way,


it's time to think about how constructive can you be


because he's our president for the next four years at least.


Let me ask you about the other way a lot of people


in Britain know of you, which is through True Detective,


and Rusty there is kind of cynical, materialistic, pessimistic


I just wonder, unlike a film, to make a big long series


like True Detective, you must inhabit that character


To what extent does Rusty rub off on you, and to what extent


Philosophically I'm a lot on the same page, but me personally,


But one great thing about a long series like that is it's a 450-page


script instead of a film that's close to 120.


You have a longer first act of development of character.


When I first read that, the writing was so on fire


and things that were coming out of Rust Cohle's mouth.


Whether I agreed with him or I didn't, I loved


I see a propensity for obesity, poverty, fairy tales,


folks putting what few bucks they do have in little wicker baskets


I think it's safe to say that nobody here will be


Some folks enjoy community, common good.


Yeah, well if the common good has got to make up fairy tales then it's


And you and Woody Harrelson were very early in, in terms


of stepping to one side from a Hollywood career


and going into a big, long-form television series.


And look how many they are doing now.


A lot of that is from the success of that first season


of True Detective that Woody and I did.


Absolutely, I saw you smiling, remembering it.


Is the attraction simply the long-form aspect of it,


Great story, great character, and when I had only done films,


if you go back 20 years or even less, there is a bit of taboo to go


I'm happy to say that when this came across my desk


four or five years ago, I considered that for


about five seconds, and my agent and I said "Look


Look at the character, it's outstanding.


I don't give a damn what screen it's on."


And today some of the best stories are being told on the small screen.


Matthew McConaughey, thank you very much for joining us.


Coming up later this morning, Andrew Neil will be discussing


the consequences of Theresa May's meeting with President Trump


and the fallout from the deportations row with former


Ukip leader and Trump confidant, Nigel Farage.


That's the Sunday Politics at 11 o'clock here on BBC One.


Now, remoaner in chief or brave champion of


The Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron is with me.


Before we come onto Brexit, let me ask you about the Theresa May visit


because she had a very tough line to walk. She and we need to deal with


this man. We have to, for the future prosperity of our communities and


our children, have a good deal with America and yet we are all saying to


her, you must be more forthright, in a sense more insulting to the man


you are asking for a deal. It is a very hard job. It is not insulting


to stand up to somebody who is behaving in a way which is


appalling, arguing for the introduction of torture, being


misogynistic, and the appalling band of people entering the United States


from Muslim countries. We would have expected her to stand up to Donald


Trump, she ended up holding his hand. It seems to me that what we


have at the moment is a weak position. Donald


Trump himself wrote 30 years ago that the best time for you to make a


deal is when the other guy is desperate. She looked desperate. He


saw weakness is what you are saying. That's right. It is right for the


Prime Minister of Britain to speak to the president. If you only speak


to people who share your values, you will be very lonely. It was right to


talk to him, what was wrong was to effectively roll over in the face of


the ban of people entering from Muslim countries. We don't know what


she said to him privately, and again in this circumstance where we are


asking him for a generous trade deal, to grandstand against him


seems a dangerous thing for us to do. We do know that it took her


until the early hours of morning for Theresa May to even stand up and say


she gently disagreed with what Donald Trump was doing. She should


have opposed this from the beginning but when it became apparent it would


affect British people, Nadhim Zahawi we saw earlier on, Mo Farah, the guy


who drove me here this morning, it affects British people and you would


expect the British Prime Minister to fight Britain's corner. I want her


to be very clear, I want Theresa May to be what a good friend to America


would be and tell them how it is. Don't go over there and hold his


hand. She did get things out of him on Nato that many thought she would


not get. Assuming this ban is in place, it is a temporary ban being


challenged at the moment, but if it is still in place in the summer when


President Trump comes for a state visit, do you want to see him


addressing the House of Commons? It is important that you have leaders


of the country engaging with us. I thought a state visit was hasty,


particularly given the things he's been coming out with recently. You


should engage with people like this but there a massive difference


between engaging with Donald Trump and effectively giving succour to


the kind of thing he's coming out with. He is that moderate --


moderate internationalist consensus that Britain, America and Europe


have been the pillars of and we should not giving lightly because


Theresa May has put herself in a desperate position where she is


alienating our friends to the east and in a desperate position, and of


course Donald Trump can smell desperation 3000 miles away. Let's


turn to Brexit, it is clear you want us to stay inside the EU, is that


fair? It's never been anything other than the liberal commitment. And you


would like somehow to stop Brexit happening? My view is we will never


get a better deal than the one we currently have, but the reality is


the referendum took place so the Government has a mandate to


negotiate Brexit with the European Union. What Theresa May does not


have is a mandate to make the choice she just has which is to go for a


hard Brexit outside the single market. I would argue that she has


assumed the 52% meant what Nigel Farage means, I think that is a


massive insult to the majority of people who voted to leave. Again and


again, in that chair, that very chair, there was Boris Johnson,


Michael Gove, David Cameron, George Osborne and I asked every single one


of them, does coming out of the EU mean coming out of the single


market, and every single one of them said yes so I take it that people


understood that because it is so intertwined with being in the EU


that being in one means being in the other. Nigel Farage has also argued


for Britain being like Norway and Switzerland, countries outside the


EU and in the single market. If you were arguing Britain's corner in


Europe, Theresa May would argue for Britain to be in the single market.


She has waved the white flag and Donald Trump can see we are


desperate. Is your preferred option from where we are now after the


referendum to somehow stay inside the EU or is be outside the EU but


inside the single market? Put simply the British people have the right to


have the final decision on this. Theresa May will return with the


deal, we don't know what it will look like, she doesn't know what it


will look like, and somebody will decide on that deal. Will it be


Theresa May, the parliament, or the British people? We think the British


people should decide on the terms of the deal. The other option would be


for the British people to say thank you but no thank you, we will stay


put. The problem with that second referendum is that apart from the


Liberal Democrats, nobody is calling for its so the chances of it


happening are vanishingly small. You make a very strong case for the


Liberal Democrats growing in size. That wasn't my intention! Our job is


to scrutinise this process to say somebody is going to decide on this


deal, somebody is, Theresa May, her government, the Parliament or the


people, and we say it should be the people. We also say that it is


unlikely, I may be wrong, but it is unlikely we will ever doing deal


with Europe that is as good as the one we have now and we are not


ashamed of saying that is the case. Somebody needs to stand up for this


position. We are offering people a vehicle for British people to stay


paramount in this, for their will to be expressed at the end of this


process and not just the beginning. There is a very important issue


about to be discussed in the House of Commons as part of the Article 50


triggering debate, which is when the final vote on the deal can take


place in the House of Commons. As I understand it the Government is


saying at the end of the process when we have our agreement, we come


back to the House of Commons and you either accept the agreement or we


leave on WTO rules and that is it. The Labour Party and many others


want a vote before the end of the deal so what are the chances of


Parliamentary confrontations, if you like, during the two year process


before it's over? Of course Parliament should be holding the


Government to account, we want the best deal possible, which is quite


Theresa May giving up on the single market at the beginning is so


foolish. It puts her in a position where we have no serious negotiating


position. In the end the big issue is what kind of deal she will come


back with. This will dictate the kind of country we are, the


relationship we have with the rest of the world, how prosperous we are


for the next half a century and somebody will decide on that deal at


the end. Should it be Theresa May, the Government, the Parliament, or


the British people? The only democratic end is for the British


people to have the decision. You say you are speaking for the 48% of the


people who voted to stay. We are speaking the people who didn't vote


for the extreme version of Brexit that Theresa May has chosen. You


would be more effective if you were reaching out to other parties who


took the same view, like the SNP and Labour Party, but you won't because


in the end you are all still tribal. There is a danger in politics that


it does make you live inside those. During the referendum it was great


spending time with Caroline Lucas, Harriet Harman, and finding how much


we have in common but the reality is the two great threats Britain face


at the moment, one is hard Brexit and the other is a Tory government.


It seems to me the Liberal Democrats need to grow to provide an


alternative to the Tories. Can I ask you very quickly, with Article 50


coming to the House of Commons next week, is there any chance Theresa


May can be defeated on any of those amendments? Only if all parties vote


in the interests of their constituents and vote for there to


be democracy at the end of the process as well as at the beginning.


Thank you for talking to us. Next Sunday, Sir Bernard Hogan Howe


will join me to look back on his tumultuous career as head


of the Metropolitan Police.


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