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the sunshine this year, is very much a city in morning, the first of the | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
official days of mourning. Back to the studio. | :00:00. | :00:08. | |
me are Mathew Green, an author and journalist, Rachel Shabi who is a | :00:09. | :00:12. | |
Middle east journalist and author and joining us from Paris is the | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
French writer and broadcaster, Agnes Poirier. | :00:16. | :00:16. | |
We start with some of the French papers. | :00:17. | :00:18. | |
"Sorrow and Anger" is the headline on Le Figaro. | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
Liberation has a dramatic front page - it's publishing a special | :00:23. | :00:25. | |
In the British papers - The Sunday Telegraph has a striking | :00:26. | :00:32. | |
picture of people hanging out of windows to escape the attackers. | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
The Observer focuses on the investigation into those | :00:38. | :00:39. | |
behind the attacks, saying three people have been arrested. | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
The Daily Mail claims the attackers entered Europe as "fake refugees". | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
The Sunday Express says the SAS is on the streets of London | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
The Sunday Times has pictures of the first victims to be named - | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
including Briton Nick Alexander, who worked for the band playing | :00:59. | :01:01. | |
at the Bataclan when the crowd was attacked. | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
And the Independent asks "how did it happen and what happens next?" | :01:05. | :01:15. | |
Let's begin in Paris. These Sunday morning editions are very striking, | :01:16. | :01:27. | |
very sad. They are and one I might show you, we do not have that many | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
additions usually traditionally in France, unlike Britain, we have the | :01:33. | :01:43. | |
only one, really, the Sunday newspaper, and it is the Republic | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
face-to-face with barbarism. We also have an addition of the Parisien, | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
which is like the Evening Standard in London, and it says resistance, | :01:53. | :02:00. | |
it is imperative. Let's resist. I expect actually the model's papers | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
on Monday will be, will have many more pages that show the | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
investigation progressing. But perhaps actually I think that today | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
the liberation's special edition which is all in black without any | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
words is actually the one that really gives, is in tune with | :02:20. | :02:26. | |
prescience and the French at large, that is to say, a bunch of flowers. | :02:27. | :02:37. | |
In the words. We're left speechless by the new scale of the attack, if | :02:38. | :02:45. | |
you want, because as a Christian and as a whole prescience since the | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
January attacks have gotten used to a really heightened level of alert | :02:49. | :02:54. | |
and vigilance with the French Armed Forces deployed in the streets of | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
Paris. That is the new normal. It is not as if we did not expect them to | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
strike again but not like this. Not in such a big scale, not with seven | :03:05. | :03:12. | |
or eight suicide bombers. This is unheard of, it is unprecedented in | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
contemporary France. Today it is reeling from the shock and also | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
perhaps we had not measured the depth of the hatred towards | :03:22. | :03:29. | |
democracy which is the foundation on which Paris of course is one of the | :03:30. | :03:36. | |
many symbols. I was struck, the headline you should early from | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
liberation, very striking, there is a slightly different mood in the | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
addition of the goal that we have got, it says, to win the war on | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
describing it as a war and I have one of the German papers, too, which | :03:51. | :03:53. | |
picks up some words of President Hollande which they translate as we | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
are going to have to become pitiless or refunds. You captured one mode, | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
this seems to be a very different mood from some people, perhaps, in | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
the political classes. Is it really considered to be a war against | :04:12. | :04:20. | |
terror? That is really terrible challenge, the challenge we are | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
facing because where democracy is we are at peace, presumably. And that | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
new set, that the enemy, if we are at worry have to use the semantics | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
of war so that means there will be traitors, obviously, the enemy from | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
within. We are facing some very tough questions. President Hollande | :04:42. | :04:49. | |
talks about the enemy's RE, the terrorist army, usually if you are | :04:50. | :04:56. | |
at war there is an army, the enemy's army, you send the troops. | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
You do not just go bombing with planes. And it means to that if | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
their enemies inside, domestic enemies, you have to find them and | :05:08. | :05:15. | |
they are traitors. This has opened a real Pandora's box in terms of what | :05:16. | :05:24. | |
are we ready to do if this is a war and if we want to accept the | :05:25. | :05:31. | |
consequences of that new states. Let me bring in Matt and Rachel. They | :05:32. | :05:40. | |
also have a headline that says world war, that is what they're talking | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
about, is that how you see it? It is wearily familiar, isn't it, from the | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
reaction to the 911 attacks in the United States where there was of | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
course immense shock and the unprecedented scale of the assault | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
very much as we are seeing in Paris, but what we saw after that was an | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
assault on civil liberties, a new world order anyway where | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
assassination by drone strike was something that we looked at, | :06:09. | :06:11. | |
something we accepted as an everyday part of reality and which led to an | :06:12. | :06:17. | |
unfolding conflict which is still playing out so of course there is | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
grief and there is anger but we also need to be very careful that we do | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
not essentially play into the hands of Isis by throwing away the sort of | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
values that they are trying to destroy. That is interesting because | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
Agnes was topping about an attack on our way of life, but it certainly | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
was, football and restaurant and so on. If we lose that we of life by | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
those kinds of things that matter is talking about we are in trouble. We | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
need to be really careful about the language we use in the coming days | :06:46. | :06:52. | |
and weeks. Obviously it is a huge tragedy and devastating but to start | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
talking about an enemy within and traitors and, you know, this war | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
against an idea is I think very dangerous ground. This has been a | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
war for some time, it has arrived on our shores but we are good fighting | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
this war for quite some time. France has been involved more than any | :07:12. | :07:18. | |
other European country in attacks on Islamic State in the last few weeks, | :07:19. | :07:25. | |
it has bombed oil and gas installations in northern Syria and | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
has also attacked places controlled rack in the belief that many foreign | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
nationals have gone there to fight. France has been at war already, I do | :07:34. | :07:40. | |
think we need to be very careful about the terminology. What | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
impressed the about the British papers and I'm sure Agnes Hook and | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
from the French papers, too, they put the human face on this. T look | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
at the front page of the Sunday Times, they have pictures of some of | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
the victims and they are very very young. They have named the victims. | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
The same is true in the Daily Mail, just to see that and get a sense of | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
the kind of people, which is people from all walks of life, just normal | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
ordinary people. Absolutely, and that is going to be even sadder the | :08:13. | :08:19. | |
next few days as there are people still looking desperately for close | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
relatives and obviously they have not heard from them, it looks quite | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
grim. You can see on social networks, it started on Saturday, | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
Friday night, Saturday morning, the pictures of all of these people and | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
title of the different nationalities. Not all French at all | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
because Palace is a very cosmopolitan city, very young, all | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
of these people were attending this concept and this is going to be | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
quite heartbreaking, as you say, to put faces on the victims. They are, | :08:54. | :09:02. | |
you know, they were just enjoying life and that is probably why they | :09:03. | :09:09. | |
were struck. Also the other element which the newspapers, French | :09:10. | :09:11. | |
newspapers are talking about which you may not be aware of is that the | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
suicide bombers outside the Stade de France tried to get in the Stade de | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
France, and tried actually to provoke chaos there and if possible | :09:23. | :09:29. | |
even a stampede there, and two in a way do what he did at the Bataclan | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
Theatre, to get inside and provoke terror and horror so it is almost a | :09:36. | :09:42. | |
miracle that they could not get into the Stade de France. It is difficult | :09:43. | :09:49. | |
to breathe could have been even worse. Much, much worse. And that | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
was there in, that was the aim. One of the human stories, a friend of | :09:55. | :10:00. | |
mine is writing about Nick Alexander who was selling merchandise at the | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
concert, and you think, he writes in glowing terms about him and what he | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
was like that he says for the sake of Nick and all the other victims we | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
must not lose humanity in fighting back, which is basically your | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
point, Matt. There's always this danger when there's so much grief | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
and anger that we will make very hasty responses. Things are changing | :10:23. | :10:28. | |
on the ground in Iraq and Syria and it is important to have that context | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
in mind. The Islamic State has suffered some very severe setbacks | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
in the last couple of weeks, whizzing important towns and seeing | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
its main communication route between muscle and rack, its two main | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
cities, come under pressure. The key here is that we are not going to be | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
sending in ground troops any time soon, that is very clear, the hope | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
is that if Islamic State can be gradually rolled back slowly but | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
surely it will eventually essentially just implode and I think | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
that is really the only strategy that is viable. Implode but also | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
lashed out like we have seen. That is inevitable. What did you make | :11:09. | :11:15. | |
Rachel about the mail on Sunday, Paris Jihadi got in as fake | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
refugees, what do you think? Again this is not going to board well, we | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
are already seeing the far right in France and in the UK pounce on this | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
information as though to say, this is the reason why we should not let | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
in refugees but we do have to remember that those people are | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
fleeing exactly the kind of nightmare scenarios that have been | :11:41. | :11:47. | |
unleashed in Paris. They are fleeing murder and just harder and we do | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
need to keep in mind that this is why they are coming. And also that, | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
you know, this was a very, very slick operation. It was preplanned, | :11:58. | :12:04. | |
very carefully planned, they would have used any entry points | :12:05. | :12:11. | |
available. We cannot suddenly lash out at refugees because if indeed | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
they happen to be... That is exactly what Islamic State want, they say in | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
the propaganda, they have stated clearly that these sorts of attacks | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
are designed to sow suspicion of Muslim populations in Europe. That | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
works very well for them. The more that this happens the more potential | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
recruits they have. It is incumbent upon all politicians and all the | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
commentators to really exercise restraint at this moment and not | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
feed the cycle. I wanted to look at the Independent on Sunday front page | :12:47. | :12:49. | |
which is very striking, the French flag, we will see a lot of French | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
flags and many people seem we are all Paris, but he solidarity after | :12:54. | :13:01. | |
the Charlie Hebdo attacks was obvious on the streets of Paris but | :13:02. | :13:10. | |
I wonder how long it lasts, there are elections next month and there | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
is a lot of talk about refugees and such. How long do you see this | :13:16. | :13:18. | |
playing over the next few days but maybe by next month? Pitting the | :13:19. | :13:29. | |
finger where it hurts, the show of solidarity is very heart-warming and | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
wonderful, and France has the days of national mourning but then what | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
about the fourth day? First of all there will be a tough questioning | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
for the government as to why this could not have been prevented, even | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
though we know the intelligence services in France and in Britain | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
and Europe for attacks on a very regular basis. But of course that is | :13:54. | :14:00. | |
exactly what Rachel was talking about, the semantics are very | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
important because if the President Hollande for instance is talking | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
about war then we have to because he isn't or you lose another term. Of | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
course there are regional elections in a few days in France, I expect | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
the National front, the extreme right party will increase its | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
electoral Hall. And the level because one of the suicide bombers | :14:26. | :14:33. | |
might have used a Syrian passport then of course there will be | :14:34. | :14:43. | |
questions about Schengen and whether the equipment of Schengen can go on | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
be suspended and it is very potent to remain calm and show restraint | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
but also you have got public opinion. And Islamic State is | :14:51. | :14:57. | |
mastering all of this tools of mass propaganda and communication, so it | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
is extremely tricky for the governments of Europe. We have about | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
a minute left, I just wondered on your thoughts, Angela Merkel is | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
almost being blamed for some of this in some papers. Subtext that she is | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
in trouble, as one court said, it just takes one skier to cause an | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
avalanche. Wouldn't it be wonderful if the European response to this | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
atrocity was the just opened at stores to all the refugees who needs | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
to come to Europe, wouldn't that be the most appropriate in the most | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
humane response to such an atrocity? It will not surprise you if I say I | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
think that is very unlikely. I know, but whatever. Matthew, what do you | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
think? The politics of this will continue. We talked about drones are | :15:47. | :15:53. | |
there, we are to kill British civilians. Jihadi John,... British | :15:54. | :16:04. | |
citizens I should say, whether that is something we want to do has not | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
been debated. Following the killing of the US approach without a proper | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
debate about the balance between security and freedom and we need to | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
have that debate urgently to decide what we feel is appropriate. It has | :16:17. | :16:23. | |
been taken out of our hands, it is something the security establishment | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
is running with a -- with inadequate oversight. | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
Thank you. We will look at the front pages every evening on BBC News. | :16:33. | :16:51. | |
With further rain today across north-west England and south-west | :16:52. | :16:54. | |
Scotland | :16:55. | :16:55. |