14/11/2015 The Papers


14/11/2015

No need to wait to see what's in the papers - tune in for a lively and informed conversation about the next day's headlines.


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Transcript


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We will be taking a look at tomorrow morning's papers in a moment.

:00:12.:00:16.

First the headlines at 11:30pm: High security on the streets of Paris

:00:17.:00:19.

tonight, as new footage emerges of police exchanging fire with

:00:20.:00:21.

Prosecutors confirmed 129 are dead and 350 injured, many critically.

:00:22.:00:25.

Eight gunmen wearing suicide vests targeted half a dozen venues.

:00:26.:00:36.

Seven of the gunmen blew themselves up.

:00:37.:00:38.

David Cameron says Britain's terror threat remains at severe level, but

:00:39.:00:44.

Hello and welcome to our look ahead to what the papers

:00:45.:01:11.

With me are French-Algerian journalist Nabila Ramdani,

:01:12.:01:20.

Robert Fox, defence editor for the London Evening Standard,

:01:21.:01:22.

and joining us from our Paris bureau is France 24's Leela Jacinto.

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Tomorrow's front pages, starting with some of the French papers.

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Sorrow and Anger is the headline on Le Figaro.

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Liberation has a dramatic front page.

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It has publishing a special edition about the events in Paris.

:01:57.:02:01.

In the British papers, the Sunday Telegraph has a striking

:02:02.:02:03.

picture of people hanging out of windows to escape the attackers.

:02:04.:02:09.

The Observer focuses on the investigation into those

:02:10.:02:11.

behind the attacks, saying three people have been arrested.

:02:12.:02:15.

The Daily Mail claims the attackers entered Europe as fake refugees.

:02:16.:02:18.

The Sunday Express says the SAS is on the streets of London,

:02:19.:02:21.

The Sunday Times has pictures of the first victims to be named, including

:02:22.:02:33.

Briton Nick Alexander, who worked for the band playing at the Bataclan

:02:34.:02:36.

And the Independent asks "how did it happen and what happens next?"

:02:37.:02:50.

They are questions many of the newspapers try to find the answers

:02:51.:02:58.

to as well. Let's go to Paris. Many of the French newspapers really have

:02:59.:03:03.

had their first proper opportunity to digests what happened in Paris,

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and react and ask those questions. And the -- Le Figaro focusing on

:03:10.:03:23.

those questions. What is really striking is how different these

:03:24.:03:29.

attacks were to the Charlie Hebdo attacks. The slogan, Je Suis

:03:30.:03:40.

Charlie. It is a very defiant spirit here. If you see Le Figaro, which

:03:41.:03:47.

has a right of centre newspaper, the lower the sorrow and anger, there is

:03:48.:03:54.

we will win the war. So that is a theme that I am seeing this time

:03:55.:03:58.

that I didn't really see after the Charlie Hebdo attacks. Is how

:03:59.:04:06.

newspapers like Le Figaro are reporting on the events of Paris, is

:04:07.:04:10.

that changing as well? Is there a different tone? No, on the reporting

:04:11.:04:15.

it has been pretty straightforward. All of Saturday they were... You

:04:16.:04:21.

know, most of the news was driven by information coming from police

:04:22.:04:23.

sources, which was actually confirmed later this evening when

:04:24.:04:28.

the Paris prosecutor had a press briefing. So, you know, it has been

:04:29.:04:35.

very much focused on what happened. And of course, a lot of victims

:04:36.:04:41.

stories. Because this is a part of Paris that... Paris is not a very

:04:42.:04:46.

large city, so it has touched a lot of Peruvians. What do you make of Le

:04:47.:04:53.

Figaro? So many British papers focus on the investigations, the reactions

:04:54.:04:59.

-- Parisians. We will get on to the British papers at the moment, Le

:05:00.:05:04.

Figaro very much focusing on the grief. Indeed, it is a very

:05:05.:05:11.

passionate editorial, it has to be said, and a very belligerent

:05:12.:05:15.

headline. The nation at war. It goes into how France was lured into this

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false sense of security after the Charlie Hebdo attacks, and now with

:05:21.:05:23.

these attacks happening again on a much wider scale, basically the

:05:24.:05:27.

editorial argues that France have to wake up, and they paint a picture, a

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very dramatic picture, of a clash of civilisations, basically, between us

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and them. The abomination of the so-called Islamic State, and the

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defence of French values and western values. And they argue that if we

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are to defeat those evils, we are not going to achieve that with

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slogans, tweets, marches in central Paris, or confronting them with

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secular values. We have to be... You know, a bit more belligerent than

:06:01.:06:06.

that. So already, French newspapers, less than 24 hours after the

:06:07.:06:09.

attacks, very different to last time, we are starting to ask very

:06:10.:06:13.

provocative questions about where do we go. Is it worth it? Should we

:06:14.:06:18.

continue to get more involved? What are the politicians discussing right

:06:19.:06:22.

now? Liberation has a very striking front page. Very powerful, very

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stark. No text at all. And it is black. The editorial is interesting

:06:33.:06:41.

in several respects in Le Figaro. It uses war. It takes Francois Hollande

:06:42.:06:46.

at his word and says we are going to make war. It has a rather chilling

:06:47.:06:53.

line, this army of criminals, which we now know that commanders are

:06:54.:06:57.

abroad and we must attack them. Interestingly, its international

:06:58.:07:01.

edition emanates from Paris as well. The New York Times has been

:07:02.:07:07.

taking up much the same line. Very strange reporting in the afternoon

:07:08.:07:10.

edition today. I have been looking at an online saying, now is the time

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to really get serious about the attack on Islamic State in Syria, in

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Iraq, I have just been on Channel Five live arguing with the former

:07:22.:07:28.

director of the CIA, saying go in and bash them, that is the way we

:07:29.:07:33.

have been weak about the air operation and I made the point vet

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to him, which I make in this, in military terms this is saying there

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is a centre of gravity, if you pull it apart the whole thing falls

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apart. You can hit Islamic State in Mosul, in Raqqa, and that's it. What

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we have learnt from this and the weak's events, the terrible attacks

:07:59.:08:04.

in Baghdad, on soft targets in Beirut. It isn't as easy as that, it

:08:05.:08:11.

isn't as easy as taking out two or three capitals, provincial centres

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on the ground. Although they are an important part of the story, as we

:08:15.:08:19.

will discover. What do you think people in Paris want to see? Do they

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want to see Liberation with the roses they are and the very black

:08:24.:08:27.

and respectful front page, or do they want to hear from the

:08:28.:08:30.

politicians? What are they discussing, what are they going to

:08:31.:08:34.

do about this? I don't think they want to hear from the politicians. I

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think they are sort of terrified about when... And it surely will,

:08:40.:08:44.

this issue will get politicised. For now, the politicians are rallying

:08:45.:08:49.

together. Francois Hollande is going to be addressing Parliament on

:08:50.:08:51.

Monday. Everyone is making the right noises but this will surely become

:08:52.:08:57.

politicised. When we first started getting reports that there was a

:08:58.:08:59.

Syrian passport discovered on the scene, you know, there was alarm

:09:00.:09:05.

among some of my French colleagues, of Algerian origin, because does

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this mean that Marine Le Pen... Is the next target going to be the

:09:14.:09:17.

migrants now? I just want to get your reaction to the Mail on Sunday

:09:18.:09:27.

here in the UK. It's focus is very much on how the Islamic extremists

:09:28.:09:31.

got into Paris, how they got there, and their headline is Paris jihadis

:09:32.:09:36.

got in as fake refugees. What is the strength of feeling about the

:09:37.:09:41.

migrant crisis? About Borders? Of course, it is difficult. Because if

:09:42.:09:46.

you are going to protect your borders, you do at the Islamic

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extremists want you to do, and lose your freedom. I am large the French

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are committed to the European Union and to the spirit of the European

:09:55.:09:59.

Union, and you know, they did not take to David Cameron's speech last

:10:00.:10:03.

week very well. There is really a sense of shock. Mind you, there is a

:10:04.:10:08.

state of emergency in Paris right now, which we haven't seen for a

:10:09.:10:15.

decade. Not much really being said, as far as I can tell, on the

:10:16.:10:20.

borders. People just seem to take it as a given. That security measures

:10:21.:10:25.

have to be tightened. We were already in a state of alert after

:10:26.:10:32.

the Charlie Hebdo attacks and people seem to be accepting that security

:10:33.:10:37.

is going to be tight right now. Did you see many headlines like that

:10:38.:10:41.

even before the attacks? Were their reports about how dangerous the

:10:42.:10:44.

migrant crisis could be for security? Well, that depends on

:10:45.:10:49.

which paper you read. Liberation certainly not all stop a bit like

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here. We do know, and the Daily Mail goes into this, that we have heard

:10:57.:10:59.

from Greece saying that they believe it is highly likely at least one of

:11:00.:11:05.

the gunmen could have got into France via Greece. We do know that a

:11:06.:11:10.

Syrian passport was left near the bodies of one of the gunmen. I think

:11:11.:11:16.

that kind of story was always going to be inevitable, that you have a

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link between what is to be inevitable, that you have a

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link between what -- what has happened in Paris and the wider

:11:25.:11:27.

political situation, across Europe as it were. So... But they are

:11:28.:11:35.

conflicting reports about what the Greeks are actually saying. It is

:11:36.:11:39.

all apparently still based on claims, and if I may put it that

:11:40.:11:43.

way, the probability, the conclusion is not that conclusive. One of the

:11:44.:11:52.

inside headlines, secret cargo, jihadis bound for Britain as well.

:11:53.:11:58.

But if you read the text on the other papers, like the Sunday Times,

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one of the leaders came from the district from which the Kuwachi

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brothers came. There is something Indigenous about this. It is

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interesting that the papers get into the entrails of this. This is a

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very, very difficult and extremely complex case. It is both domestic

:12:24.:12:28.

and global. It does have referenced. In one of the best pieces I have

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read by a friend which just came up, I'm sure there are other interesting

:12:35.:12:36.

and insightful pieces which I haven't yet scanned is Patrick

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Cockburn's excellent piece in the Independent. It says what is old and

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what is new about it. Very simply, he makes the point... We are in

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total agreement, he said what is new about this is the sophistication of

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the mounting of the attack. This was kamikaze attack rather like mom by,

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the attack on the hotel district in 2008 -- Mumbai. The attackers were

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expendable. Once they got out of their vehicles, which is another

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story, exactly what vehicles did they get out of and all that, but to

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get all that gear into the right place at the right time with the

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reliability that somebody was going to do that dreadful stuff in the

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concert hall, this is the really interesting one, in the concert

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Hall, and going around the four restaurants and firing off a

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magazine or two each time, getting back in the car and then going on,

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tells you a hell of a lot about the lack of surveillance on Paris

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streets. And there is another almost made description which comes up in

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two or three of the papers of one of the attackers allegedly trying to

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get into the stadium when the match was already on, and more or less

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security on the gate says go away, they had spotted something. They had

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spotted the suicide vest, allegedly, and there were several accounts of

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this. He steps back, blows himself up, they hear it inside the stadium

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and the match goes on. It is very, very odd indeed. And then they

:14:24.:14:28.

hustle the President out of the stadium. Was he the target? It could

:14:29.:14:34.

have been so much worse. It is bad but it could have been so much

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worse. I'm not criticising the journalism, which has been

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excellent. You or I or three or four of us will have been only these

:14:43.:14:46.

rolling stories web hit after bit after bit on the canvas is very

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rich, and it is very complex -- where it after bit. And the

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Independent says we are struggling to nail down what is old and new

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about it but the man who actually nails it is Patrick, Patrick

:15:05.:15:09.

Cockburn says that the Islamic State is now going for soft targets. And

:15:10.:15:15.

the Independent not just asking what happened, but what happened next.

:15:16.:15:19.

That is what every one is talking about as well. Absolutely, and that

:15:20.:15:24.

is why I slightly disagree that the French don't want to hear about it

:15:25.:15:28.

from politicians. What the front page here is doing is putting on a

:15:29.:15:33.

very sombre front page the emphasis on grief and morning, and respect

:15:34.:15:37.

for the dead. But the next step is surely for the government to answer

:15:38.:15:44.

questions -- mourning. You know, how did that happen? Can we know more

:15:45.:15:49.

about it? And as it stands, the investigation remains very sketchy

:15:50.:15:53.

indeed. It is all based on claims, allegations, and at this stage I

:15:54.:15:56.

would be very suspicious about the kinds of things that are presented

:15:57.:15:59.

as facts, like the Syrian passport which seems to be planted next to a

:16:00.:16:06.

body. We have seen that in the case of the Charlie Hebdo attacks with

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the brothers, and one of the brothers had forgotten his identity

:16:11.:16:13.

card in the car. I think we have to take all these clues with a bit of

:16:14.:16:15.

caution. World leaders are now discussing

:16:16.:16:29.

military action against Islamic State. For many people in Paris

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tonight, they might not want more military action. They have already

:16:34.:16:37.

felt what that might lead to. But it might increase the feeling of a lot

:16:38.:16:42.

of people that we need to be more involved. Is that the kind of thing

:16:43.:16:50.

you are hearing in Paris? That there should be more military action that

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there should be? Frans is very active in the fight against the

:16:54.:16:57.

hardest groups, whether it is in North Africa... -- France. Whether

:16:58.:17:18.

it is Boko Haram... The French are used to be very robust military

:17:19.:17:24.

involvement. They are raising their eyebrows that a socialist president

:17:25.:17:29.

like Francois Hollande seems so much more gung ho than his US and British

:17:30.:17:34.

counterparts on the Syrian tragedy. Like many people, they tend to think

:17:35.:17:40.

after all these years, what are we doing with the rebel partners that

:17:41.:17:45.

we have and that we cannot really trust? There is not really an

:17:46.:17:48.

appetite for military involvement but there is a numbers ending that

:17:49.:17:53.

France is a big player, a big military player, on the

:17:54.:17:59.

international stage. The Times Takes it back to how people are feeling

:18:00.:18:03.

and how they are reacting right now, while papers like the Telegraph

:18:04.:18:10.

lookahead. They have the names and images of the victims. 129 right

:18:11.:18:17.

now, with many more injured. What strikes me is how young some of

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those faces are. Only one of them confirmed as British so far. And

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this comes as no surprise. Because these areas are very useful areas --

:18:36.:18:41.

youthful areas, frequented by young people, and they have been described

:18:42.:18:46.

by commentators as areas frequented by liberal, open-minded young men

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and women, who effectively represent the opposite of what ISIS stands for

:18:56.:19:01.

and that is why there would have been a prime target. ISIS resents

:19:02.:19:09.

that kind of joie de vivre and what you would do on a Paris street. You

:19:10.:19:15.

think they were targeting young people anywhere in Paris? I would be

:19:16.:19:21.

very interested to hear about that. It seemed to be that the main effort

:19:22.:19:31.

was the star -- stadium. They knew the district very well. What do you

:19:32.:19:38.

think? I could not agree more. These were not obvious targets. You had to

:19:39.:19:58.

be a real Parisian. Soft targets. The stadium seemed a more obvious

:19:59.:20:03.

target and the parallels with the Mumbai attacks are very start here.

:20:04.:20:12.

-- stark. But this is not a 5-star hotel or the Westgate shopping mall

:20:13.:20:17.

in Nairobi, places where the super-rich capitalists hang around.

:20:18.:20:21.

This was just a young crowd. That is what makes it really shocking. It

:20:22.:20:25.

will give many people the sense that we are not safe anywhere. It is not

:20:26.:20:30.

just big events, it can be just having a drink with a friend. But it

:20:31.:20:35.

is also the timing. More questions than answers but it is something

:20:36.:20:40.

that we have to establish. Again, the only person I have seen

:20:41.:20:43.

mentioning it... This is multidimensional. There is something

:20:44.:20:48.

very conventional to what ISIS does. It actually declared an

:20:49.:20:56.

Islamic State. And it has territory. It has to hold that land

:20:57.:21:00.

and it has been losing a great deal of ground over the last two to three

:21:01.:21:09.

weeks. The blast Sinjar, which is vital to the communications and

:21:10.:21:15.

smuggling routes. Those are the routes you want to use if you are

:21:16.:21:20.

going to export oil. This is a body blow to them and there seems to be

:21:21.:21:26.

something going on saying let us have diverging reaction, so we have

:21:27.:21:30.

had this terrible attacks on civilians in Lebanon and Baghdad,

:21:31.:21:36.

which have not been given the full coverage that they deserve, and we

:21:37.:21:44.

had the bombing and now this. It is to show that they are all

:21:45.:21:50.

conquering. It is to show that they can hit soft targets wherever. And

:21:51.:21:55.

that is the terror side of it. It is kamikaze stuff and it is vulgar and

:21:56.:22:00.

indiscriminate. That is the horrible side of it that strikes. Because it

:22:01.:22:04.

is so irrational, it strikes intellectual terror. It is

:22:05.:22:11.

interesting that it is clearly a massive PR coup, if I can but put it

:22:12.:22:24.

bluntly. What Patrick is saying is that it reflects a sign of

:22:25.:22:30.

desperation. They are actually losing ground, being pushed back...

:22:31.:22:36.

In Iraq and Syria. So they come here and attack us on our home soil. They

:22:37.:22:42.

are losing its title as the premier jihadi flag bearer. That is what

:22:43.:22:48.

happened with the various affiliate of Al-Qaeda. They lose the brand

:22:49.:22:53.

leadership. There is something going on there. There is a really cruel

:22:54.:22:58.

and wicked mind behind this. I suspect in a lot of the modus

:22:59.:23:03.

operandi that there are one or two others really tough Chechens that

:23:04.:23:12.

have been behind the forces in where ISIS is in Iraq. They picked a

:23:13.:23:17.

concert hall. The Chechens like doing that. It is a confined space

:23:18.:23:23.

with very young people and it is an easy target. The Observer picks up

:23:24.:23:40.

on that. Police hunt for clues. By launching attacks like this, they

:23:41.:23:45.

expose themselves. They expose as to how they may do the next attack. It

:23:46.:23:54.

does leave clues. One very important thing about this attack is that

:23:55.:24:00.

France has seen lone wolf attacks. A Frenchman was arguably the first

:24:01.:24:05.

blowback of the Syrian conflict, targeting the Jewish museum in

:24:06.:24:11.

Brussels. This is very different. This is co-ordinated and the claim

:24:12.:24:16.

came very quickly, the very next day. It is also the first suicide

:24:17.:24:21.

attack. Going back to this business of the caliphate, I think that we

:24:22.:24:26.

are getting it wrong by saying just hours after our Kurdish allies

:24:27.:24:34.

entered Sinjar we have this very co-ordinated attack but almost

:24:35.:24:36.

seems... We don't use the word Central command. We used to use that

:24:37.:24:40.

term for Al-Qaeda. But it really shows that it does not matter what

:24:41.:24:44.

is happening in Syria and Iraq. And in a way, maybe you are right in

:24:45.:24:49.

that the aspiration will trigger these kinds of attacks. We saw with

:24:50.:24:53.

the Russian plane and the Beirut attacks on the Hezbollah

:24:54.:24:59.

neighbourhood, the global jihad, ISIS's global reach, is becoming

:25:00.:25:04.

much more sophisticated. For a year, we thought they were just

:25:05.:25:07.

concentrating on holding and administering territory. It has gone

:25:08.:25:12.

to a different game now. That is the key point. They are saying that

:25:13.:25:15.

they're not going to be focused on that. Sinjar is just the latest.

:25:16.:25:20.

They felt they were losing ground. There was pressure on the territory

:25:21.:25:24.

of the Islamic State. Now we're going to do something us because

:25:25.:25:28.

we're not a one trick pony and we're going to show that we can strike you

:25:29.:25:33.

where it really hurts. And there is still a military presence in Paris

:25:34.:25:37.

tonight but the Sunday Express suggests that in London the SAS is

:25:38.:25:43.

on our streets. Is that something that would worry you, knowing that

:25:44.:25:49.

there are plain armed soldiers protecting British cities? Or does

:25:50.:25:55.

it make you feel safer? We have heard the French President using the

:25:56.:25:59.

language of war, saying this was an act of war perpetrated against

:26:00.:26:04.

France and that France is determined to fight terrorism in a merciless

:26:05.:26:10.

fashion, and this has been echoed by his British counterpart, David

:26:11.:26:17.

Cameron, who is just doing the same, proving that he is being pragmatic

:26:18.:26:21.

about it. He does not want to be complacent about it. Obviously the

:26:22.:26:26.

British people are going to be scared about what is happening next

:26:27.:26:29.

door. It is only two hours away on the Euros da. And there are

:26:30.:26:33.

legitimate concerns about the British population. -- on the

:26:34.:26:41.

Eurostar. Britain went through that a few years ago and does not want to

:26:42.:26:43.

see a similar scenario unfold again on British soil, so what David

:26:44.:26:50.

Cameron is doing, effectively, his policy is now revolving on war and

:26:51.:26:54.

he is taking all the security measures he possibly can to reassure

:26:55.:26:58.

the British public. Many thanks to our guests. Our thoughts are with

:26:59.:27:09.

you all and your colleagues in Paris. Thank you for taking us

:27:10.:27:15.

through the papers. Our coverage continues on BBC News. Don't go

:27:16.:27:16.

away. Good evening. We have got some

:27:17.:27:30.

especially heavy rainfall around across north-western parts of the

:27:31.:27:32.

country. Is all down to tropical moisture delivered by ex-hurricane

:27:33.:27:35.

Kate. That is bringing all moisture delivered by ex-hurricane

:27:36.:27:38.

Kate. That is bringing all of this heavy rain across parts

:27:39.:27:39.

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