15/11/2015 The Papers


A lively, informed and in-depth conversation about the Sunday papers.

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the sunshine this year, is very much a city in morning, the first of the


official days of mourning. Back to the studio.


me are Mathew Green, an author and journalist, Rachel Shabi who is a


Middle east journalist and author and joining us from Paris is the


French writer and broadcaster, Agnes Poirier.


We start with some of the French papers.


"Sorrow and Anger" is the headline on Le Figaro.


Liberation has a dramatic front page - it's publishing a special


In the British papers - The Sunday Telegraph has a striking


picture of people hanging out of windows to escape the attackers.


The Observer focuses on the investigation into those


behind the attacks, saying three people have been arrested.


The Daily Mail claims the attackers entered Europe as "fake refugees".


The Sunday Express says the SAS is on the streets of London


The Sunday Times has pictures of the first victims to be named -


including Briton Nick Alexander, who worked for the band playing


at the Bataclan when the crowd was attacked.


And the Independent asks "how did it happen and what happens next?"


Let's begin in Paris. These Sunday morning editions are very striking,


very sad. They are and one I might show you, we do not have that many


additions usually traditionally in France, unlike Britain, we have the


only one, really, the Sunday newspaper, and it is the Republic


face-to-face with barbarism. We also have an addition of the Parisien,


which is like the Evening Standard in London, and it says resistance,


it is imperative. Let's resist. I expect actually the model's papers


on Monday will be, will have many more pages that show the


investigation progressing. But perhaps actually I think that today


the liberation's special edition which is all in black without any


words is actually the one that really gives, is in tune with


prescience and the French at large, that is to say, a bunch of flowers.


In the words. We're left speechless by the new scale of the attack, if


you want, because as a Christian and as a whole prescience since the


January attacks have gotten used to a really heightened level of alert


and vigilance with the French Armed Forces deployed in the streets of


Paris. That is the new normal. It is not as if we did not expect them to


strike again but not like this. Not in such a big scale, not with seven


or eight suicide bombers. This is unheard of, it is unprecedented in


contemporary France. Today it is reeling from the shock and also


perhaps we had not measured the depth of the hatred towards


democracy which is the foundation on which Paris of course is one of the


many symbols. I was struck, the headline you should early from


liberation, very striking, there is a slightly different mood in the


addition of the goal that we have got, it says, to win the war on


describing it as a war and I have one of the German papers, too, which


picks up some words of President Hollande which they translate as we


are going to have to become pitiless or refunds. You captured one mode,


this seems to be a very different mood from some people, perhaps, in


the political classes. Is it really considered to be a war against


terror? That is really terrible challenge, the challenge we are


facing because where democracy is we are at peace, presumably. And that


new set, that the enemy, if we are at worry have to use the semantics


of war so that means there will be traitors, obviously, the enemy from


within. We are facing some very tough questions. President Hollande


talks about the enemy's RE, the terrorist army, usually if you are


at war there is an army, the enemy's army, you send the troops.


You do not just go bombing with planes. And it means to that if


their enemies inside, domestic enemies, you have to find them and


they are traitors. This has opened a real Pandora's box in terms of what


are we ready to do if this is a war and if we want to accept the


consequences of that new states. Let me bring in Matt and Rachel. They


also have a headline that says world war, that is what they're talking


about, is that how you see it? It is wearily familiar, isn't it, from the


reaction to the 911 attacks in the United States where there was of


course immense shock and the unprecedented scale of the assault


very much as we are seeing in Paris, but what we saw after that was an


assault on civil liberties, a new world order anyway where


assassination by drone strike was something that we looked at,


something we accepted as an everyday part of reality and which led to an


unfolding conflict which is still playing out so of course there is


grief and there is anger but we also need to be very careful that we do


not essentially play into the hands of Isis by throwing away the sort of


values that they are trying to destroy. That is interesting because


Agnes was topping about an attack on our way of life, but it certainly


was, football and restaurant and so on. If we lose that we of life by


those kinds of things that matter is talking about we are in trouble. We


need to be really careful about the language we use in the coming days


and weeks. Obviously it is a huge tragedy and devastating but to start


talking about an enemy within and traitors and, you know, this war


against an idea is I think very dangerous ground. This has been a


war for some time, it has arrived on our shores but we are good fighting


this war for quite some time. France has been involved more than any


other European country in attacks on Islamic State in the last few weeks,


it has bombed oil and gas installations in northern Syria and


has also attacked places controlled rack in the belief that many foreign


nationals have gone there to fight. France has been at war already, I do


think we need to be very careful about the terminology. What


impressed the about the British papers and I'm sure Agnes Hook and


from the French papers, too, they put the human face on this. T look


at the front page of the Sunday Times, they have pictures of some of


the victims and they are very very young. They have named the victims.


The same is true in the Daily Mail, just to see that and get a sense of


the kind of people, which is people from all walks of life, just normal


ordinary people. Absolutely, and that is going to be even sadder the


next few days as there are people still looking desperately for close


relatives and obviously they have not heard from them, it looks quite


grim. You can see on social networks, it started on Saturday,


Friday night, Saturday morning, the pictures of all of these people and


title of the different nationalities. Not all French at all


because Palace is a very cosmopolitan city, very young, all


of these people were attending this concept and this is going to be


quite heartbreaking, as you say, to put faces on the victims. They are,


you know, they were just enjoying life and that is probably why they


were struck. Also the other element which the newspapers, French


newspapers are talking about which you may not be aware of is that the


suicide bombers outside the Stade de France tried to get in the Stade de


France, and tried actually to provoke chaos there and if possible


even a stampede there, and two in a way do what he did at the Bataclan


Theatre, to get inside and provoke terror and horror so it is almost a


miracle that they could not get into the Stade de France. It is difficult


to breathe could have been even worse. Much, much worse. And that


was there in, that was the aim. One of the human stories, a friend of


mine is writing about Nick Alexander who was selling merchandise at the


concert, and you think, he writes in glowing terms about him and what he


was like that he says for the sake of Nick and all the other victims we


must not lose humanity in fighting back, which is basically your


point, Matt. There's always this danger when there's so much grief


and anger that we will make very hasty responses. Things are changing


on the ground in Iraq and Syria and it is important to have that context


in mind. The Islamic State has suffered some very severe setbacks


in the last couple of weeks, whizzing important towns and seeing


its main communication route between muscle and rack, its two main


cities, come under pressure. The key here is that we are not going to be


sending in ground troops any time soon, that is very clear, the hope


is that if Islamic State can be gradually rolled back slowly but


surely it will eventually essentially just implode and I think


that is really the only strategy that is viable. Implode but also


lashed out like we have seen. That is inevitable. What did you make


Rachel about the mail on Sunday, Paris Jihadi got in as fake


refugees, what do you think? Again this is not going to board well, we


are already seeing the far right in France and in the UK pounce on this


information as though to say, this is the reason why we should not let


in refugees but we do have to remember that those people are


fleeing exactly the kind of nightmare scenarios that have been


unleashed in Paris. They are fleeing murder and just harder and we do


need to keep in mind that this is why they are coming. And also that,


you know, this was a very, very slick operation. It was preplanned,


very carefully planned, they would have used any entry points


available. We cannot suddenly lash out at refugees because if indeed


they happen to be... That is exactly what Islamic State want, they say in


the propaganda, they have stated clearly that these sorts of attacks


are designed to sow suspicion of Muslim populations in Europe. That


works very well for them. The more that this happens the more potential


recruits they have. It is incumbent upon all politicians and all the


commentators to really exercise restraint at this moment and not


feed the cycle. I wanted to look at the Independent on Sunday front page


which is very striking, the French flag, we will see a lot of French


flags and many people seem we are all Paris, but he solidarity after


the Charlie Hebdo attacks was obvious on the streets of Paris but


I wonder how long it lasts, there are elections next month and there


is a lot of talk about refugees and such. How long do you see this


playing over the next few days but maybe by next month? Pitting the


finger where it hurts, the show of solidarity is very heart-warming and


wonderful, and France has the days of national mourning but then what


about the fourth day? First of all there will be a tough questioning


for the government as to why this could not have been prevented, even


though we know the intelligence services in France and in Britain


and Europe for attacks on a very regular basis. But of course that is


exactly what Rachel was talking about, the semantics are very


important because if the President Hollande for instance is talking


about war then we have to because he isn't or you lose another term. Of


course there are regional elections in a few days in France, I expect


the National front, the extreme right party will increase its


electoral Hall. And the level because one of the suicide bombers


might have used a Syrian passport then of course there will be


questions about Schengen and whether the equipment of Schengen can go on


be suspended and it is very potent to remain calm and show restraint


but also you have got public opinion. And Islamic State is


mastering all of this tools of mass propaganda and communication, so it


is extremely tricky for the governments of Europe. We have about


a minute left, I just wondered on your thoughts, Angela Merkel is


almost being blamed for some of this in some papers. Subtext that she is


in trouble, as one court said, it just takes one skier to cause an


avalanche. Wouldn't it be wonderful if the European response to this


atrocity was the just opened at stores to all the refugees who needs


to come to Europe, wouldn't that be the most appropriate in the most


humane response to such an atrocity? It will not surprise you if I say I


think that is very unlikely. I know, but whatever. Matthew, what do you


think? The politics of this will continue. We talked about drones are


there, we are to kill British civilians. Jihadi John,... British


citizens I should say, whether that is something we want to do has not


been debated. Following the killing of the US approach without a proper


debate about the balance between security and freedom and we need to


have that debate urgently to decide what we feel is appropriate. It has


been taken out of our hands, it is something the security establishment


is running with a -- with inadequate oversight.


Thank you. We will look at the front pages every evening on BBC News.


With further rain today across north-west England and south-west




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