15/11/2015 The Papers


15/11/2015

A lively, informed and in-depth conversation about the Sunday papers.


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the sunshine this year, is very much a city in morning, the first of the

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official days of mourning. Back to the studio.

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me are Mathew Green, an author and journalist, Rachel Shabi who is a

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Middle east journalist and author and joining us from Paris is the

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French writer and broadcaster, Agnes Poirier.

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We start with some of the French papers.

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"Sorrow and Anger" is the headline on Le Figaro.

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Liberation has a dramatic front page - it's publishing a special

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In the British papers - The Sunday Telegraph has a striking

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picture of people hanging out of windows to escape the attackers.

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The Observer focuses on the investigation into those

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behind the attacks, saying three people have been arrested.

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The Daily Mail claims the attackers entered Europe as "fake refugees".

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The Sunday Express says the SAS is on the streets of London

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The Sunday Times has pictures of the first victims to be named -

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including Briton Nick Alexander, who worked for the band playing

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at the Bataclan when the crowd was attacked.

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And the Independent asks "how did it happen and what happens next?"

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Let's begin in Paris. These Sunday morning editions are very striking,

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very sad. They are and one I might show you, we do not have that many

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additions usually traditionally in France, unlike Britain, we have the

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only one, really, the Sunday newspaper, and it is the Republic

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face-to-face with barbarism. We also have an addition of the Parisien,

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which is like the Evening Standard in London, and it says resistance,

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it is imperative. Let's resist. I expect actually the model's papers

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on Monday will be, will have many more pages that show the

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investigation progressing. But perhaps actually I think that today

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the liberation's special edition which is all in black without any

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words is actually the one that really gives, is in tune with

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prescience and the French at large, that is to say, a bunch of flowers.

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In the words. We're left speechless by the new scale of the attack, if

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you want, because as a Christian and as a whole prescience since the

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January attacks have gotten used to a really heightened level of alert

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and vigilance with the French Armed Forces deployed in the streets of

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Paris. That is the new normal. It is not as if we did not expect them to

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strike again but not like this. Not in such a big scale, not with seven

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or eight suicide bombers. This is unheard of, it is unprecedented in

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contemporary France. Today it is reeling from the shock and also

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perhaps we had not measured the depth of the hatred towards

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democracy which is the foundation on which Paris of course is one of the

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many symbols. I was struck, the headline you should early from

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liberation, very striking, there is a slightly different mood in the

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addition of the goal that we have got, it says, to win the war on

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describing it as a war and I have one of the German papers, too, which

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picks up some words of President Hollande which they translate as we

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are going to have to become pitiless or refunds. You captured one mode,

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this seems to be a very different mood from some people, perhaps, in

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the political classes. Is it really considered to be a war against

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terror? That is really terrible challenge, the challenge we are

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facing because where democracy is we are at peace, presumably. And that

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new set, that the enemy, if we are at worry have to use the semantics

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of war so that means there will be traitors, obviously, the enemy from

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within. We are facing some very tough questions. President Hollande

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talks about the enemy's RE, the terrorist army, usually if you are

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at war there is an army, the enemy's army, you send the troops.

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You do not just go bombing with planes. And it means to that if

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their enemies inside, domestic enemies, you have to find them and

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they are traitors. This has opened a real Pandora's box in terms of what

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are we ready to do if this is a war and if we want to accept the

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consequences of that new states. Let me bring in Matt and Rachel. They

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also have a headline that says world war, that is what they're talking

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about, is that how you see it? It is wearily familiar, isn't it, from the

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reaction to the 911 attacks in the United States where there was of

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course immense shock and the unprecedented scale of the assault

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very much as we are seeing in Paris, but what we saw after that was an

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assault on civil liberties, a new world order anyway where

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assassination by drone strike was something that we looked at,

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something we accepted as an everyday part of reality and which led to an

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unfolding conflict which is still playing out so of course there is

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grief and there is anger but we also need to be very careful that we do

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not essentially play into the hands of Isis by throwing away the sort of

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values that they are trying to destroy. That is interesting because

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Agnes was topping about an attack on our way of life, but it certainly

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was, football and restaurant and so on. If we lose that we of life by

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those kinds of things that matter is talking about we are in trouble. We

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need to be really careful about the language we use in the coming days

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and weeks. Obviously it is a huge tragedy and devastating but to start

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talking about an enemy within and traitors and, you know, this war

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against an idea is I think very dangerous ground. This has been a

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war for some time, it has arrived on our shores but we are good fighting

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this war for quite some time. France has been involved more than any

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other European country in attacks on Islamic State in the last few weeks,

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it has bombed oil and gas installations in northern Syria and

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has also attacked places controlled rack in the belief that many foreign

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nationals have gone there to fight. France has been at war already, I do

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think we need to be very careful about the terminology. What

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impressed the about the British papers and I'm sure Agnes Hook and

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from the French papers, too, they put the human face on this. T look

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at the front page of the Sunday Times, they have pictures of some of

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the victims and they are very very young. They have named the victims.

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The same is true in the Daily Mail, just to see that and get a sense of

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the kind of people, which is people from all walks of life, just normal

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ordinary people. Absolutely, and that is going to be even sadder the

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next few days as there are people still looking desperately for close

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relatives and obviously they have not heard from them, it looks quite

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grim. You can see on social networks, it started on Saturday,

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Friday night, Saturday morning, the pictures of all of these people and

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title of the different nationalities. Not all French at all

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because Palace is a very cosmopolitan city, very young, all

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of these people were attending this concept and this is going to be

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quite heartbreaking, as you say, to put faces on the victims. They are,

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you know, they were just enjoying life and that is probably why they

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were struck. Also the other element which the newspapers, French

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newspapers are talking about which you may not be aware of is that the

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suicide bombers outside the Stade de France tried to get in the Stade de

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France, and tried actually to provoke chaos there and if possible

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even a stampede there, and two in a way do what he did at the Bataclan

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Theatre, to get inside and provoke terror and horror so it is almost a

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miracle that they could not get into the Stade de France. It is difficult

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to breathe could have been even worse. Much, much worse. And that

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was there in, that was the aim. One of the human stories, a friend of

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mine is writing about Nick Alexander who was selling merchandise at the

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concert, and you think, he writes in glowing terms about him and what he

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was like that he says for the sake of Nick and all the other victims we

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must not lose humanity in fighting back, which is basically your

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point, Matt. There's always this danger when there's so much grief

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and anger that we will make very hasty responses. Things are changing

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on the ground in Iraq and Syria and it is important to have that context

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in mind. The Islamic State has suffered some very severe setbacks

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in the last couple of weeks, whizzing important towns and seeing

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its main communication route between muscle and rack, its two main

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cities, come under pressure. The key here is that we are not going to be

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sending in ground troops any time soon, that is very clear, the hope

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is that if Islamic State can be gradually rolled back slowly but

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surely it will eventually essentially just implode and I think

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that is really the only strategy that is viable. Implode but also

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lashed out like we have seen. That is inevitable. What did you make

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Rachel about the mail on Sunday, Paris Jihadi got in as fake

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refugees, what do you think? Again this is not going to board well, we

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are already seeing the far right in France and in the UK pounce on this

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information as though to say, this is the reason why we should not let

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in refugees but we do have to remember that those people are

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fleeing exactly the kind of nightmare scenarios that have been

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unleashed in Paris. They are fleeing murder and just harder and we do

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need to keep in mind that this is why they are coming. And also that,

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you know, this was a very, very slick operation. It was preplanned,

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very carefully planned, they would have used any entry points

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available. We cannot suddenly lash out at refugees because if indeed

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they happen to be... That is exactly what Islamic State want, they say in

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the propaganda, they have stated clearly that these sorts of attacks

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are designed to sow suspicion of Muslim populations in Europe. That

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works very well for them. The more that this happens the more potential

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recruits they have. It is incumbent upon all politicians and all the

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commentators to really exercise restraint at this moment and not

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feed the cycle. I wanted to look at the Independent on Sunday front page

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which is very striking, the French flag, we will see a lot of French

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flags and many people seem we are all Paris, but he solidarity after

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the Charlie Hebdo attacks was obvious on the streets of Paris but

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I wonder how long it lasts, there are elections next month and there

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is a lot of talk about refugees and such. How long do you see this

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playing over the next few days but maybe by next month? Pitting the

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finger where it hurts, the show of solidarity is very heart-warming and

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wonderful, and France has the days of national mourning but then what

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about the fourth day? First of all there will be a tough questioning

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for the government as to why this could not have been prevented, even

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though we know the intelligence services in France and in Britain

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and Europe for attacks on a very regular basis. But of course that is

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exactly what Rachel was talking about, the semantics are very

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important because if the President Hollande for instance is talking

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about war then we have to because he isn't or you lose another term. Of

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course there are regional elections in a few days in France, I expect

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the National front, the extreme right party will increase its

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electoral Hall. And the level because one of the suicide bombers

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might have used a Syrian passport then of course there will be

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questions about Schengen and whether the equipment of Schengen can go on

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be suspended and it is very potent to remain calm and show restraint

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but also you have got public opinion. And Islamic State is

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mastering all of this tools of mass propaganda and communication, so it

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is extremely tricky for the governments of Europe. We have about

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a minute left, I just wondered on your thoughts, Angela Merkel is

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almost being blamed for some of this in some papers. Subtext that she is

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in trouble, as one court said, it just takes one skier to cause an

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avalanche. Wouldn't it be wonderful if the European response to this

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atrocity was the just opened at stores to all the refugees who needs

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to come to Europe, wouldn't that be the most appropriate in the most

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humane response to such an atrocity? It will not surprise you if I say I

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think that is very unlikely. I know, but whatever. Matthew, what do you

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think? The politics of this will continue. We talked about drones are

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there, we are to kill British civilians. Jihadi John,... British

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citizens I should say, whether that is something we want to do has not

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been debated. Following the killing of the US approach without a proper

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debate about the balance between security and freedom and we need to

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have that debate urgently to decide what we feel is appropriate. It has

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been taken out of our hands, it is something the security establishment

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is running with a -- with inadequate oversight.

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Thank you. We will look at the front pages every evening on BBC News.

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With further rain today across north-west England and south-west

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Scotland

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