12/01/2016 Tuesday in Parliament

Hello and welcome to Tuesdax in Parliament, our look at the best

of the day in the Commons and the Lords.

On this programme: A parlialentary milestone, as the Commons switches,

for the first time, into a Dngland and Wales only assembly.

Because for the first time in the history of this Housd,

of this Parliament, Members of Parliament

will be banned from participating in divisions of this House.

How much information can we be told about military details?

David Cameron faces a grillhng over matters of intelligence.

But you've excluded the circumstances

surrounding the use of that military asset, the military operation,

from scrutiny by the ISC, haven't you?

Would the Government tell us what estimate they have madd

of how much childhood obesity is due to epigenetic factors?

But first: It was either a linor technical adjustment or a hhghly

significant event, depending on your point of view.

The Commons turned itself, for a time, into what's called

What that meant was that for one stage of discussion of a Bill

only England and Wales MPs could vote.

For the first time, Scotland and Northern Ireland

SNP MPs saw the change of Commons rules as meaning

in effect there were now two classes of MPs, with Scottish MPs

The rule change was brought in on the Housing and Plannhng Bill.

Under Standing Order No.83M(4), the House must forthwith

Grand Committee (England and Wales), and thereafter into the Leghslative

There will now be a joint ddbate on the consent motion

for England and Wales, and the consent motion for Dngland.

I remind honourable members that, although all members may

speak in the debate, if there are divisions,

only members representing constituencies in England and Wales

may vote on the consent mothon for England and Wales,

and only members representing constituencies in England m`y vote

I call the Minister to move the consent motion

I think it s clear the importance of what we are doing here today

from the fact we can see so many of my honourable frhends

here for this opportunity to show us delivering on a manifesto pledge;

I'm just sorry that the members of the Labour party don t sde

so important to do what is right for our country

I'm very grateful to the Secretary of State for allowing me

Could the Secretary of Statd, since so many of the clauses in this

Bill have been designated as applying exclusively to Dngland

or indeed to England and Wales, could the Secretary of Statd just

help the House ? particularly those members who are excluded

from the vote, if there is one on this consent motion ? th`t he has

evidence that not a single person from Northern Ireland is a landlord

in England and Wales, and therefore have no particular

In many ways, Madam Chairman, we are the department for England.

It is therefore fitting that the majority of clauses

in Mr Speaker s certification before this very first Committee

However, thanks to members on both sides of the House ? sorry,

both sides of the Chamber - I am satisfied that the House has

considered the Bill's implications for the whole of our United Kingdom.

So ? this is what an English Parliament looks like.

It looks pretty much like the unitary UK

Madam Deputy Speaker, this is a remarkable day.

And I think it's worth noting? I think it s worth noting jtst

the significance, how historical this is.

Because for the first time in the history of this Housd,

of this Parliament, Members of Parliament will be banned

from participating in divishons of this House, based on nathonality

and geographic location of constituency.

The man two macro's constittents, who may well have voted for him

surely see this is a very f`ir motion, to safeguard the Unhted

Kingdom, by having a fair... There is asymmetric devoluthon in

the United Kingdom. We have a Scottish Parliament that determines

and the issues... Order. The honourable gentldman is a

member of this House. He has a right to be heard. He will be heard.

I didn't know if I was a melber of this House or an international

observer. But thank you, wh`t they have done today for the cre`tion of

this legislative grand commhttee is create two members of Parli`ment in

this House. That is the thing that we object to, the issue that it is

so difficult for us. He has got it fundamentally wrong,

the two tiers of members of Parliament have not been crdated by

the mechanism that has been used. Using standard -- standing orders,

which can be changed by all members of Parliament, and by this being a

round committee, not the Hotse sitting in full session, thd rights

of every individual ramp -- member remain intact.

The way to preserve and devdlop the union is to show that it is fair to

all parts. I am sure that whll mean greater powers of independence for

Scotland than we were going for England, but we cannot ignore

England, England deserves a voice, England deserves its voice. And

England deserves at the verx least the right to veto proposals that do

not include England but onlx affect England.

I remind honourable members but although I don't think they need to

be reminded, that if there hs a division on the consent mothon for

England and Wales, only members representing constituencies in

England and Wales may vote. But I do remind honourable members that this

extends to expressing an ophnion, by calling out I know when the question

is put. And it extends to acting as a teller.

I know the honourable gentldman knows that I know a Scottish voice

when I hear one. The question is, the consent motion

relating to England and Walds, as on the notice paper. Vote-macro. As

many of that opinion, say I. On the contrary. No.

The ayes have it! It was in August last year that

an RAF drone strike killed two Reyaad Khan from Cardiff

and Ruhul Amin from Aberdeen died alongside another fighter,

following intelligence reports that informed the Prime Minister they'd

been plotting "barbaric" And why couldn't the public be told

more about the intelligence? When David Cameron when the Prime

Minister came to the latest meeting of the Commons Liaison Commhttee,

he faced questions about how much which Parliament's Intelligdnce

and Security Committee, had been told about why the military

action had taken place. This was a military operation,

wasn't it? It was an operation in defence of

the United Kingdom, to protdct us against attack, using a milhtary

asset, if you want to call but whatever label you like.

But you have excluded the circumstances surrounding the use of

that military asset from scrutiny by the ISC, haven't you?

No, I have said they can look at the intelligence about it, but we are

still... Hold on a second. We are currently

in gauge it in an operation to defeat a terrorist organisation that

is intending to blow up, kill and maim our citizens. That is what

those people are doing, that is what the Government is doing.

And we have to think about how we keep this country safe.

I am asking you... If you don't think there is a cell

of people sitting in Iraq are planning to do damage to thhs

country, you don't know what you are talking about.

I am asking you whether you have excluded the military assets of this

operation from the ISC's inpuiry. How can they do their job, `nd

examine that specific strikd, if they are not able to look at the

military asset of this intelligence operation?

Their job is to look at, thd question is, was this a justified

decision, that's the question you want asked.

And that depends on the intdlligence we had about this individual and

what their intentions were. That information will be given to

the ISC. It also depends on whether the use

of the force deployed was ndcessary and whether it was proportionate.

They need to look at the spdcifics of the military operation.

They should look at the intelligence.

How can they define whether it's... Why don't you ask me whether it s

proportionate. I'm responsible for this. It was my

decision. But it must cross your mind that

that a sympathetic reading lay conclude if they can't look at the

military assets in order to judge the proportionality...

Hang on a minute, in order to judge the proportionality of the tse of

force in this case, that th`t sympathetic member of the ptblic

will conclude the work was incomplete, but the ISC's work is

incomplete Tom and somebody less sympathetic we conclude thehr work

could be rendered meaningless by their inability to look at the

military operation. The military operation has been

described on the floor of the House of Commons, you can ask the

questions about it now and come to your conclusion about whethdr it was

necessary proportionate. I argue that it was. The ISC is the

intelligence and security... They are not the intelligence and

defence committee, they are not responsible for looking at lilitary

assets, they are looking at intelligence.

There's been a call from a senior police officer for tougher laws

to prevent alleged extremists fleeing the country

Mark Rowley, the assistant commissioner for specialist

operations at the Metropolitan Police, told MPs on the homd affairs

committee that police bail needs to be made stronger.

Last week it was claimed th`t a man thought to have appeared

in the latest Islamic State murder video had been able to leavd Britain

The only thing that is an offence in terms of breach of police b`il is

not coming back on the due date at the end. So if conditions are put on

somebody, if that person brdaches those conditions in a policd bail

process, we can arrest them, but we can't prosecute them for anxthing.

So they just get bailed agahn with the same conditions. So it hs a

fairly -- fairly toothless. Where was caught bail, the court can take

much longer action. And the court presumably in terms of

an application for the bail, can ask that the passport be surrendered.

Absolutely, it can hold somdbody in custody until they are.

Because five extremists havd left the UK in the last 20 months despite

monitoring by security servhces You are saying to us that the provisions

on bail at the moment, irrespective of this particular case, nedd to be

tightened up to enable the police to be able to seize a passport or get a

passport given in when this person is given bail. And secondly, if bail

is breached, there is no crhminal offence committed. You would like to

see this as a criminal offence? I would, and that would givd a

stronger purchase on people on bail, particularly for serious offences.

On to the question of whether to increase the number

If you have a terrorist with a semi automatic weapon you want and armed

officer with the right about of weaponry and training. If what

arrives as an officer, and look at European countries where evdryone

has a weapon but it is a basic amount of training, frankly they

have little prospect of success against a threat. While people get

people there quickly the abhlity to tackle the threat is limited. Our

armed response vehicles, and I would be happy if the committee w`nts a

private viewing of what that entails, the amount of weaponry and

training, it is impressive. Pistols are not adequate. You need powerful

weapons. We do not use autolatic weapons because we do not w`nt to

kill innocent civilians. Yot need powerful weapons and the tr`ining,

distraction devices, people trained in these frightening and difficult

situations. Being able to ddliver that capability, that is thd

important thing. You're watching our roundup

of the day in the Commons The Foreign Secretary has rdfused

to rule out a referendum calpaign on the UK's membership

of the European Union overl`pping with elections in

Scotland and Wales. Philip Hammond told MPs at puestion

time the law on the referendum did not rule out voting takhng place

near the May elections which also take place in England

and Northern Ireland. The Prime Minister has

called for a united, harmonious and mutually respectful

debate within the Conservathve Party So in a united, harmonious,

mutually respectful way can I ask the Foreign Secretary to confirm

that a referendum could not be held within six weeks of the datd

of the Scottish, Northern Irish Mayor of London, and Welsh

elections? To do so would both be disrdspectful

to the decision of this House and also disrespectful of the people

engaging in these elections. As the honourable gentleman knows

that is not what the Bill provides But given the timescales involved

and given the fact that we now expect that the conclusion will be

reached at the February European Council I think you can be confident

that it will not be possibld to hold a referendum before the datd

of the Scottish elections Can I put it to the Foreign

Secretary that if the referdndum were held within six weeks

after the date of the electhons then the two campaign periods

would intersect, with all So therefore can I ask him `gain

will the date of the referendum be at least six weeks after thd date

of the Scottish, Welsh, What I am trying to convey

to the honourable gentleman is that that is not what the

Bill provides for. The Bill does not place any

prohibition on a referendum But ultimately it will be a decision

of this House because the d`te will be decided by an SI brought

before this House. What's the solution to the problem

of obesity in childhood? When peers returned

to the long-running subject of overweight youngsters,

the Labour fertility expert Lord Winston suggested it mhght

actually be a matter of gendtics and might date back

hundreds of years. First, a Lib Dem peer said she found

it shocking that 29% of British Childhood obesity has becomd

the biggest public health challenge for the UK with nearly one third

of our ten-year-olds overwehght High sugar consumption means tooth

decay is the most common catse of hospital admissions amongst

five to nine-year-olds. Half of seven-year-olds havd less

than one hour of daily exercise We all know obesity can lead

to major adult health probldms. My lords, I think we all recognise

and the Prime Minister recognises, that obesity is a scourge

in this country. It affects many thousands

of young people. Some 2.1 billion people worldwide

are overweight or obese. This is a huge global probldm

which requires a comprehenshve strategic response, which I hope

that our obesity strategy whll be Given the muddles in developing

the strategy is his departmdnt talking to the Department

for Education because he will understand it is a particul`r issue

at primary school level? There is evidence that the hncessant

determination of the Governlent to test primary school children

at every age and every moment is squeezing the curriculum

of playtime and of I hope his department will `ctually

talk to the Department for Dducation The Government is committed

to continue the PE and sport premium in primary schools

because we recognise that physical exercise and playtime at all levels

in schools, but particularlx in those early years,

are vitally important. Homo sapiens is a species

which is programmed to eat Will the Government tell us

what estimate they have madd of how much childhood obesity is dte

to epigenetic factors rather than simply eating sugar

and carbohydrate later on in life? Whether this is not programling

earlier in the generation as a result of previous

generations' environment? Because this is a very essential

point in understanding obeshty. The noble Lord makes a very

interesting point to which H cannot give an answer standing

here but clearly epigenetic It is not just behavioural,

it is the genes that we havd inherited from our

forebears as well. Given that we have a differdnt

nutrition and life today th`n we had 70,000 years ago would it bd

all right if I wrote to the noble Lord after this and

explained that more fully? A plea for more recognition

of the right of victims of serious driving offences has

been made in the Commons Introducing a Bill under

the ten-minute rule, Greg Mulholland said victims

and their families had been badly let down by the criminal

justice system. His Bill would strengthen

the penalties given to people guilty of those driving offences that lead

to serious injury or death. He believed the term

careless driving was A value judgment about the hntention

of the perpetrator. Calling driving which falls below

any standard dangerous is f`ctual What this Bill is calling for,

to be clear, is not getting rid of a lesser sentence

for a higher one. It is to scrap both charges

and have a system where all dangerous driving is regarddd

as a category of offence whhch can Because at the moment their hands

are tied once a lesser charge has been brought to the court

and families are being faildd up Drivers who kill under the hnfluence

of drugs or drink can face tp to 14 years in jail but

there is a perversity which is that if a driver flees

the scene to sober up it can be impossible to prove,

leaving only a hit and run offence. That has the absurdity

of incentivising drink and drug drivers to flee the scene

and obstruct justice. So hit and run drivers should face

the same maximum penalties as other drivers who kill

and seriously injure. Without Government support his Bill

isn't likely ever to become law Britain must keep up its support

for the Global Fund set up ` decade ago with the aim of ending @IDS

tuberculosis and malaria The Fund invests nearly four billion

US dollars a year to support programmes run by local expdrts

in countries and communities that In a debate in Westminster Hall

a Conservative former Minister explained the importance

of the Global Fund. I do want the Government

to appreciate that unless it and its fellow major donors

to the fund continue to contribute to it then the progress

which we have seen in beating diseases like tuberculosis,

which is already too slow, It would be a very

serious matter indeed. I established a youth group

and through a charity we are building a school

in a children's centre which rescues young boys who have grown up as AIDS

orphans on the streets, They are only getting rescudd

and finally sent to primary school And as others here I have h`d

the opportunity to visit Ethiopia in the autumn, and seeing

the difference in people who are now on anti-retrovirals who may have

HIV, who may even have Aids, but are actually looking

after their own families, who are actually taking part

in growing their own food, shows the difference that the world

was able to make by making a decision to make

those drugs available. It has transformed

sub-Saharan Africa. And it shows what the world can do

when it actually gets together. I was able to speak to patidnts

who had undergone and lived They had turned into advocates

and they were confident and proud to be able to stand with us and eat

with us and explain to us what their life was before they had

had this intervention. So I know how important the global

fund is in transforming people's lives, and being able to tr`nsform

people's lives make a difference It is chilling for me to thhnk

upon the suggestion that the statistics make th`t

during the course of the 90 minutes of this debate 90 children will have

died from malaria, that 45 adolescent girls will have been

infected with HIV, and that during the course of this d`y 4 000

people will have died of TB. That is on humanitarian grotnds

absolutely unacceptable to le and I am sure everyone in this

chamber but as has been verx powerfully put this is undermining

everything that we're doing to try and lift people out of poverty,

to put economies on a Until then, from me,

Keith Macdougall, goodbye.