26/10/2015 Victoria Derbyshire

Lewis Hamilton is the second British driver to win three world Grand Prix

titles. Hello, welcome to the programme,

we're on BBC 2 and the BBC News Throughout the programme we'll bring

you the latest breaking news and developing stories and - as always -

we're keen to hear from you. A little later this morning

the World Health Organisation is expected to say that red

and processed meat is potentially If that's the case, will it make you

cut down on the amount you eat? And after 10 we'll talk to

Boy Meets Girl star Rebecca Root - she's described comments

by Germaine Greer that transwomen aren't really women as "outmoded,

outdated and outrageous". You can also watch

the programme wherever you are online via the bbc news app or

our website bbc.co.uk/victoria. We start the programme

by talking about an issue that you tell us is incredibly important to

you - planned cuts to tax credits. The Government is facing

a possible defeat in the House It's estimated around three million

families could, on average, be more But the Government maintains

the cuts should be seen as part of a package of measures

which includes a higher minimum wage Today the House

of Lords could vote to reject the A motion tabled by Lib Dem Peers,

could kill The Government has been under

growing pressure to back down over plans to introduce

the cuts in April next year. Here's Jim Reed on how much people

can get under the current system. Tax credits were New Labour's baby.

There are two main types. First child tax credit. Now claimed by

four million families. ?140 odd that is the money we need to feed our

kids and clothe our kids. Fair enough if you have partners, send

them out to work. If you're a single parent with three children that

needs to be looked after and cared for and I'm the only person to do

it, it is going to destroy me. It wouldn't put it past me if it drove

me nuts. Calculating tax credits is complex. But familiar clis get more

than more than ?3 thousand 3,000 for their first children. Very

important. Very important. We couldn't survive without tax

credits. Without income support, couldn't support. If they cut them

back further? Then I will have to do something and try and get money

somehow. I don't know how. Next work tax credit, paid to low income

workers. Again it is complex and depends on whether you have

children. But if you're working full-time on the minimum wage you

get an extra ?1,300 a year in credits, plus child care costs. I

get work and family tax credit. If they stop that, it wouldn't be worth

working, I would be worse off. At the moment I get help with my rent.

If they stop that, the wages I get for 20 hours would just cover my

rent. So I would have no money. I would be broke. To their supporters

tax credits are an important way of getting people out of poverty and

into work. Critics say the system is costing ?30 billion a year and

should be up to employers to pay a higher wage. More on that in a

second. Pausing to bring you this news it is being reported by Reuters

that there has been about earthquake in Northern Pakistan, earthquake of

7.7 magnitude strikes in Northern Pakistan. That is all the details we

have at the moment. An earthquake of 7.7 magnitude in Northern Pakistan.

As soon as we have more we will bring it to you. So back to tax

credits. Currently,

if you earn less than ?6,420 you get the full entitlement of working tax

credits, which as Jim said, depends on things like how many hours you've

worked and how much you earn. But the income threshold,

as it's known, is set to drop to In other words, as soon

as someone earns ?3,850, they will The income threshold for those only

claiming child tax credits will also The rate at which those payments

are cut is also going to get faster Currently, for every ?1 people

earn above the threshold, they But from April,

the taper rate will go up so people will lose 48p of every

pound they earn over the threshold. So how much are people

going to lose? It's thought around 3.2 million

families will be around ?1,300 worse off under the new changes, but it'll

differ from person to person - Labour -

in the form of Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell - are making

the Chancellor, George Osborne, I know what a U-turn looks like and

how it can damage you, but we need a U-turn on this one and I have said

to him look, if you can change your mind on this, we will not make any

political capital out of it. If the Lords throw this out and put it back

to government I have said if you change your mind, bring back a

policy in which people are protected we will not in any way attack you

for that. N we will support you. And George Osborne isn't short of

suggestions from Labour politicians. He agrees with the Chancellor

on cutting the tax credit bill, Under his proposal, people would get

the full whack of tax credit money if they earn just under five grand,

rather than the Government's figure He also wants to increase the rate

at which tax credits are clawed back from people earning above 13 grand

a year - or about what you get I'm not against the reform, but

clearly tax credits are here to stay for much longer than the Government

initially thought and this would be a really good point of in a sense

recasting tax credits so you can take people out at the top income

bands, but protect people at the bottom.

There will be a vote in the House of Commons about his plan on Thursday.

Before that though, there's another hurdle to get over.

In the Lords today the Labour Peer Baroness Hollis has also put forward

an amendment, which could force the Government to delay the cuts.

They'll also vote on what's called a "fatal motion".

It's a rarely-used tactic that's been tabled by the Lib Dems that

The Education Secretary, Nicki Morgan had this warning

I think the House of Lords should be clear it is a revising chamber.

Often they make good points, but they're striking down 70% of vote

they have, they have made it more difficult for us op child care. That

is one thing people want to see us deliver our pledge. Without going

into specifics, what you're saying to the House of Lords is be careful

and think about your much v future. Future. They should be careful. I

want to bring you more about the news that a powerful weak has been

felt in Northern Pakistan. The earthquake had a magnitude of 7.7

and it has been felt in Islamabad and New Delhi. That is all the

detail we have at the moment. A strong earthquake in Pakistan.

Reuters are saying it had a magnitude of 7.7.

We can now speak to Conservative MP Nadhim Zahawi who supports cuts

to tax credits, Conservative MP Stephen McPartland, who is against

the Government's plans. Labour Peer Baroness Hollis who put

forward a motion to delay the introduction the changes and

Janette Hollis, a mum of six who will be affected by the changes.

-- Janet Davy. With all the changes the Chancellor is making, tax credit

changes and raising the threshold before people start paying tax.

Taking that into account. And a 30 hours a week child care and tax free

child care. If you have children. The Chancellor said two in ten

working families will be worse off. Two in ten working families will be

worse off. How this a fair? Well, you're looking at it the other way

eight of ten will be better off. There is one thing that will be

difficult to model, which is the Chancellor, the first Conservative

Chancellor to come up with a national living wage. No, no, I'm

not going to be diverted. Taking all the changes into account, two in ten

people will be worse off. How do you justify that? By saying it is eight

of ten people will be better off. It is tough? Let me give you this quick

sort of what is happening on the ground example. What is happening on

the ground is that two in ten work people who get up every day and go

to work, you a Conservative government that claims to be on the

side of hard working family, them be poorer. What is happening on the

ground is people like Morrissons and Liddle have followed the Chancellor

and said we will raise wages now. That is not model. Despite that two

in ten people will be worse off. That is not modelled. The two in

tennis from modelling. I'm using the Chancellor's figures. The economy is

responding and you have to believe me Alistair Darling. The former

Labour Chancellor. I'm going with the Conservative Chancellor and

you're ignoring it. No I'm saying eight out of ten people will be

better off. An average family. How this a a consolation to the two in

ten that will be worse off? We have to take some tough decisions. How

this a a consolation to them. It is not. But we have to save 4.4

billion. You don't have to do it. We can cut nurses and funding of

schools. You could not inheritance tax, you could introduce a sugar

tax. You have made a choice to make work bg people worse off. No we have

made a choice to create an economy that will be high wage and lower

welfare and lower tax. The personal allowance going up to 12 and a half

thousand creating that economy. That is the, it is philosophical

argument, what sort of country do you want to live? One where

employers use the excuse of tax credits to suppress wages or where

employers pay the national living wage. Are you in denial? No, I have

said eight out of ten families will be better off. We have to make tough

decisions. There is nothing decent about crashing an economy and taxing

people too much. It is moral to make people who work poorer? People who

don't earn much will be hurt badly if we are irresponsible and crash

the economy. What would you say to him? It is gobsmacking, the comments

that are coming out that eight out of ten people will be better off.

That is great. Businesses can they afford that living wage? That is a

huge consideration? There are small businesses that employ just a few

individuals by upping that living wage, can they afford to keep people

on or will we have more unemployed people. How would you be affected by

the changes? I have find an extra hundred pound a work and I already

work every hour I can. I can't work any more. So I would like him to

have a look at what I do, have a look at my budget and see where I'm

going to find a hundred pound a month from. It is not possible me

and many others. Do you have any idea where she should get that extra

hundred pounds. I don't know the edill details. I don't know how many

children she has. Six. You have two hundred pound, the tax free child

care amount, ?2,000. 30 hours of child care we have increased from 10

to 30. Have you taken into account. The 30 free hours it not available.

The figures don't go together. 30 hour is for three and four-year-old,

what about the two-year-old I have to pay child care for?

It is going to be much harder if we don't do anything and if we borrow

too much and tax too much. What are the choices? Do we cut nurses and

doctors or education? Baroness Hollis why would it be OK for the

unelected Lords to delay or scrap what the elected House of Commons

has voted on on a couple of times? Yes, what we're doing is seeking to

delay the effect of these cuts so that we give existing families

protection against them. These cuts would only apply to new claimants

tax credits and as people move over to Universal Credit which the

Government thinks they will all have done by 2020 the cuts will be fully

in play and the Government will make its full savings, but the key thing

about tax credits is if you are a lone parent with children and having

to work reduced hours, the Living Wage is great, but it is not enough

to live on. You need some Income Support on top for a while until

actually you don't need it anymore. Now... Would you be bullied by the

Government? No. What about the cross-benchers who have no

allegiance to a particular party? Have they been coming under

pressure? They have. In what way? They have been strong armed and told

this is a constitutional crisis which is a fig leaf. What we're

doing with this is seeking to ask the Chancellor to produce

transitional protection for existing families and as wages rise, tax

credits which are means-tested fall. As people move over to UC, tax

credits and under UC cuts will come into play. The Government will make

its savings. You will have heard the Education Secretary say the

Chancellor is in long mode yesterday. Might that stop peers

voting either against the changes or to delay them? What would happen

tonight, I hope, if they support the motion to give a delay in order to

give transitional protection, it gives the Chancellor the breathing

space to come back with his, I hope, mitigations. If they don't support

that, this statutory instrulment is law tonight and Janet will feel the

experience of it. Steve McPart land tell your colleague why you have

voted against your own Government on this? I understand and I am the

first to say the tax credits need to be reformed. We're spending ?30

billion a year on them. They have gone out of control. ?1 billion is

lost in fraud, but my concern is around those people who aren't going

to benefit from the changes and positive aspects that the Chancellor

has announced the so for me, I have used the example of a Teaching

Assistant hold be earning ?11,000 a year and if he or she doesn't have a

three or four-year-old child she will not benefit from the free

childcare. They can't benefit from the increases in personal tax

allowances because they don't earn enough. I want to focus the debate

on those people who were going to because of the reduction in the

income threshold, receive a ?1200 cut and for me, for Teaching

Assistant to be losing 10% of their income, and have no ability to make

that up anywhere else is just too much for me. So the Chancellor has

to come forward with some mitigation and I am continuing to speak out

until he does come forward with that mitigation. Do you think that's

likely to happen? I believe at the Autumn Statement he will come out

and he will mitigate for the families on the lowest incomes

because at the end of the day, the Labour Party have left these

families behind. These are the families we need to be reaching out

to. They got up, they go to work, they are trying and there has to be

reform of the tax credit system. But there has to be a fairer way of

doing it. Let me read a couple of messages from people watching you

discuss this around the country. Derek says, "Shame on anyone who

voted on the tax credit cuts." Another e-mail says, "While the

Conservatives are continuing to punish the poor. I was not put on

this planet to make George Osborne's spread sheet look good." Janet, you

may have heard this before, why should a single parent feel she has

a right to have her children fed and clothed by me? Don says, "Have

unlimited children. Don't worry. The rest of us will pay for it. "

Another says, "Your guest chose to have six children, her choice, why

should my taxes fund them?" When I decided to have six children, I was

married and I was a full-time teacher and we had a joint income of

?60,000 and we were not using tax credits, we were well off and I was

running a business part-time and unfortunately things happen and

situations change as a result, I am a single-parent, I never planned to

be being married for 20 years and could afford them. And that's what

the welfare system is for, it is for when you're in situations that are

beyond your control and you need that little bit of assistance, not

forever, this is a short-term thing until my children are that little

bit older. I have worked since we split up, I had a baby three weeks

after we split up, and I wept back to work when he was a few weeks old,

working on my business. I work two or three businesses at the moment.

I'm also employed. I work every hour as a single parent to bring my

children up in the best way that I What would your can. Message to

George Osborne be if he were sitting here what, would you say to him? I

would say, I understand that the country needs to make cuts. However,

you are cutting it not from people who are not working, you are cutting

from working people. You say work pays and yet those of us who are

working from 5am until midnight often, and single parents that are

working, every minute they physically can as well as trying to

bring up their children into today's society, you are the punishing them,

you are not punishing those people who are not working. You can cut

other subsidiesment there are corporate subsidies that could be

cut. You give millions of pounds to energy companies for example, you

give money to film companies such as Disney to make films here. There are

cuts you can make without taking it from people who are working every

minute that they physically can to bring up their children. Thank you

very much Janet. Thank you for coming on the programme. We will

report back on what happens in the Lords later today here on BBC News.

Some more about the powerful earthquake that struck Northern

Pakistan. Initial reports said it had a magnitude of 7.7. It

Pakistan. Initial reports said it felt in India and Afghanistan. The

latest details are coming in from the AFP News Agency. A strong

earthquake lasting almost a minute has been felt in New deli today with

buildings shaking in the centre of the Indian capital. Tremors were

felt as far away as Islamabad and the Afghan capital, Kabul, but not

in neighbouring Nepal. Hundreds of people raced from buildings on to

the streets in Delhi while the quake was also felt in the Himalayan

region of cashmere. This is according to AFP. A powerful

earthquake which struck Northern Pakistan has been felt in India and

Afghanistan. Hundreds of people racing from buildings on to the

streets in Delhi in India while the quake was also felt in cashmere.

More to come on that throughout the programme this morning.

Do we need to rethink how our justice system handles the deaths

The daughter of someone killed on his bike tells us

And we'll hear from one transgender star, from BBC Two's Boy Meets Girl

about Germain Greer's comments that trans women are kidding themselves

The Government is appealing to members of the House of Lords not to

Ministers says the unelected Lords would be over reaching themselves if

they vote down financial measures approved by MPs. Opponents accuse

them of trying to force through are forms without proper scrutiny. A

powerful earthquake struck Northern Pakistan including Islamabad and

other cities. The quake, which initial report say had a magnitude

of 7.7 has been felt in India and Afghanistan.

More efforts to deal with the influx of migrants agreed at

Hundreds of police are to be sent to Slovenia and Greece to

And there'll be another 100,000 places at temporary shelters

New research on whether or not eating red meat carries

The World Health Organization is publishing

a report that also covers processed meat like sausages and salami.

Meat producers are already critical, saying the study considers only

At least five people are dead after a whale-watching boat sank

21 people were rescued during a huge search operation.

Let's catch up with all the sport now and join Ore.

Lewis Hamilton did it after winning a thrilling US Grand Prix in Austin,

Texas. Lewis Hamilton wonnist first world title in 2008 and his second

last year in 2014. Both the titles went down to the final race. He has

three races to go, but he reckons this is his best win so far as it

equals the great, the late, Ayrton Senna. We will talk about Lewis

Hamilton later on. We will rattle through the sport and England's

cricketers staring down the barrel of defet in Dubai in the second Test

against Pakistan. They have got 200 runs to win with about two or three

wickets to go. Looking unlikely for Alastair Cook and his men in Dubai

and we've got our final finalists for the Rugby World Cup. Australia

against New Zealand at Twickenham on Saturday. We will round that up

later in the morning. This news is just coming in. It has been reported

by Reuters and they are saying that a Belgium military barracks has been

attacked by a gunman and shots have been fired. Those are all the

details we have got at this stage. A Belgian military barracks has been

attacked by a gunman. Shots have been fired. That's being reported by

Reuters. We will bring you more as soon as we have it.

Next this morning, is the legal system biased against cyclists

Every year around 115 cyclists die in accidents across the UK.

Of those that involve a car, only about 50% lead to a driver

Now, the man who used to be in charge of all prosecutions is

Keir Starmer, who's now a Labour MP, has told this programme cases

should automatically be referred to the Crown Prosecution Service to

decide whether or not a prosecution should go ahead.

At the moment the police can make that decision, but some families

have told us too often there's a presumption amongst officers that

We asked Anna Tatton-Brown, a BBC journalist who works

Her Dad died after he was knocked off his bike

The film contains some distressing images.

Does the justice system let down cyclists?

Why does it seem bike riders killed in accidents on our roads are so

A senior lawyer tells us the system consistently fails to

The criminal justice system is biassed in favour

A top police chief says it's too dangerous to ride regularly

If you said to me would I feel safe as a commuter in London, then no,

And the former Director of Public Prosecutions suggests

If a cyclist is knocked off by a driver of a car or some other

vehicle, there is the beginnings of a presumption that it is

I'm Anna, and last year my dad died on his bike here in Central London.

I am going to take look at whether the families

of cyclists who die on our roads are let down by the police,

My dad was cycling home this way, up this Central London road,

when he was knocked often his bike, right there.

He was in hospital in a coma for three weeks,

At the inquest into my father's death, the driver

She said it was like something falling from the sky.

Afterwards, the coroner's verdict was that

Society obviously depends on families joining together.

Here's my dad, Mick Mason, in happier times at my weddings.

He was a gentle, unassuming Geordie, who often had a twinkle in his eye.

Dad was an interior designer, until he retrained

Cycling was one of the many things he and I bonded over.

She was really close to my dad, and was staying with him at the time.

Do you remember where you were when you heard about Mick's accident?

I'd had a few messages and missed calls off my dad,

and when I rung him back, my dad told me he and mum were on

the way to the hospital, and Mick had been involved in an accident.

I sort of went through the thought of should I stay, should I go, and

then it became evident, incredibly clear I should get on a bus and go

My family and I had questions about how the police were investigating

Potential witnesses weren't chased as we would have liked, and they

didn't appear to think about what we were going through as a family.

So the key problem with Mick's case seems to be there was no-one that

actually saw the moment of collision.

Yes, which on Regent Street you would think was a bit strange.

Well, given it was 6.15 at night, and people are streaming out

of work, out of shops, and quite a lot of people tweeted

photos that evening, so I thought there would be loads of witnesses.

Considering the main crux of the issue about not being able to

To this day, I don't know that they contacted any of the people

A leading cycling charity who have helped me told us they have seen

dozens of cases like my dad's over the last few years.

They said the families of cyclists who die in road accidents often feel

disappointed with the way the cases have been dealt with by police,

Last year, a BBC Newsbeat investigation got stats

These are the figures on the information available to us.

The quiet lanes of Kent are very different to

the central London street where my dad had his accident.

I've come to visit the wife and son of Richard Jordan, who died after

Richard was cycling down this hill, with a car coming the other way.

The family believe he was knocked off, but at the inquest

the police and the coroner said the car didn't cause the accident.

The manner of my father's riding was very slow and steady.

He did it for pleasure, and to keep fit, and he would go round and stop

off at various points to look at the countryside and just relax.

I just couldn't believe that he could have just fallen off his bike,

There was no cuts, no grazes on him at all.

His face was just one massive swelling on the left-hand side.

Obviously, he was in a coma, I couldn't talk,

And it was just one big sort of puzzle as to what had happened.

The Jordans have complained about the police investigation

One of their main concerns is about a 999 call made to report

During the call, the driver and passenger involved in the

accident can be heard talking about whether their car hit Richard.

He came off, we hit the bike, we went over the bike.

That was what happened, because he just absolutely lost it.

The Jordans say the police have never given the call much weight.

A witness statement was taken from the driver you heard there,

but he was never fully questioned by officers.

This is the bike Richard was riding when he died.

After the family complained to the police watchdog, known as

the IPCC, Kent Police were ordered to explain several key points.

First, why police didn't seize the car involved.

Why the car was examined just once and only by torchlight.

And whether the unqualified investigating

The saddle was completely smashed off.

The coroner said the way Richard was cycling contributed to his death,

but the Jordans still think the police have questions to answer.

They've now been waiting over a year for the final report.

They've stopped us knowing what happened

But we've just no, absolutely no idea how he died of such horrific

injuries, and yet they are telling us a car wasn't involved.

I got the impression, silly old devil, rode his bike,

wasn't concentrating, killed himself, and that was it.

In a statement, Kent Police said they were sorry that the family

of Richard Jordan did not feel they received the service they deserved

All reasonable lines of inquiry are now completed

and the investigation into Mr Jordan's death has now been closed.

This was the night of my dad's accident.

And at this point we weren't giving the

But, as time went by, we felt the police were insensitive

in the way they dealt with us after the trauma of that night.

One officer even asked us if we wondered whether my dad might

She is in charge of policing Britain's roads.

I would not expect and want any of my officers to do anything other

than display empathy for people, and be sensitive to, you know,

the context and the environment they're operating in.

Clearly, having people that are not necessarily as sensitive

as they could and should be is something you don't want to add to

So I would say, if that is your experience,

then on behalf of policing I would apologise to you for that.

She strongly defended how police investigate road deaths, but

admitted she personally would have concerns about cycling in London.

If you said to me, would I want to commute

on a day-to-day basis in London, you know, then, no I wouldn't.

It's too busy, there are too many risks.

Every day there are a range of people who don't go home

It's no surprise to this senior lawyer, who takes

a special interest in cycling, and helped with my dad's case.

He thinks the attitude of the police is part of the problem.

They're looking at cycling as the dangerous activity, and their

emphasis, and that of some coroners, is upon whether a cyclist was

wearing a crash helmet or hi-vis equipment and so on, rather than on

whether those who are driving in the vicinity of vulnerable road

users, like cyclists, are taking the appropriate amount

A year on from my dad's death we held a vigil.

Together with other cyclists, I lay down at the spot where he died.

It is called a die-in and happens quite often in London to remember

That day police told a journalist they would pass

my dad's case to prosecutors, which could lead to a trial.

But this changed just four days later, when police again went

straight to the journalist, saying the case was actually closed.

No-one has ever offered me an explanation as to why they

thought it was OK to communicate with a journalist and not me, and it

On the anniversary of his death, they're messing us round like this.

Keir Starmer is the former Director of Public Prosecutions,

and used to make decisions on whether cases passed to him by the

He said that system might need to change.

I think there's a very strong case for saying where there's a death

involved, if it's serious enough to have had a criminal investigation,

then it really ought to go off to the CPS for a final decision.

Normally, the police investigate a crime and

then decide whether to pass it to prosecutors at the CPS, so what he's

He also had something to say about road accidents and civil lawsuits.

There's been a discussion going on for some time as to whether

liability is in the right place, and whether there ought to be some

shifting of liability, so if a cyclist is knocked off by a driver

of a car, or some other vehicle, that there's the beginnings

of a presumption that it's the vehicle that is in the wrong.

I think you have to be very careful with this, and I wouldn't want to go

to strict liability, where it's automatically thought that one party

is at fault, but we may need to start looking again at that balance.

I really wanted to talk to the Metropolitan Police

about my dad's case, but they sent me a statement instead.

We followed all available lines of inquiry in this case.

Mr Mason's family has already received a an apology

and an explanation for the miscommunication, and we can

It is wrong, however, to suggest that the investigators

directly inferred or suggested that Mr Mason was in some way responsible

My family's experiences aren't unique,

and I wonder whether the problem might be a kind of institutional

Too often the starting point seems to be whether the cyclist could

My family and I still want to know what happened to my dad

on that street behind me, and the police aren't taking his case

any further, so the only option left to us is a private prosecution.

Lawyers acting for us will take on the case without the involvement

Now, clearly none of this is going to bring my dad back, but it might

get us a bit closer to knowing what happened to him on that night.

And if you want to share that film you can find it on our programme

page - bbc.co.uk/victoria - and after 10 we'll be speaking to

London's Cycling Commissioner about this.

Thank you for your comments, one said, is it fair, asking is it a

fair report asking a reporter whose dad died from an accident, aren't

they biassed? Peter said the current accidental label placed on road

death is it inappropriate and not fit for reality. All road deaths

should be redefined as the limited punishment for death by dangerous

driving is inadequate and can create a licence to kill. All road deaths

should be initially prosecuted as murder or manslaughter with a life

sentence available. Martin sent this message, cyclists should not be on

the main roads at all for safety reasons. This comment too three

years today, riding to work this a cycle lane, in daylight in a high

vis kit I was hit by a taxi and I need a specialist mouse and keyboard

at work. The police were disinterested. And Mur said, I have

sympathy for the drivers of vehicles who have to crawl behind cyclists,

because in Manchester many cyclists choose to avoid the cycle lanes and

ride without thought for their own safety on the roads. Thank you for

your vows. Still to come: Lewis Hamilton seals his third F1 World

Championship after winning in the United States. And in terms of

weather, Louise is here, that this horse cane Patricia -- this

hurricane Patricia did affect the Grand Prix. It was an incredible

story this hurricane. The most intense hurricane ever now in terms

of wind strength and mean wind gust over 200mph. It was incredible. Have

you seen this footage across parts of the south of Mexico. It arrived

around 6 o'clock their time. Although it was a power storm, the

winds were concentrated around six or seven miles and in some ways they

were luck y. I use that world lightly. No, you don't. I know what

you mean. They arrived in a less pop lated area. But some of the energy

moved into Texas, if you were following the Grand Prix, it was

incredible the scenes for the practice and they were lucky in the

race time the dry weather arrived and the drainage is so good in

Texas, they're used to spells of heavy rain and it cleared up

quickly. But we had reports of tornadoes close to Houston and parts

of New Orleans had 220 millimetres of rain fall, this a double their

average for the month. So incredible scenes. Here? Quiet sner Yes. Yes

windy but nowhere near those wind strengths. We will see a milder feel

with the wind coming from the south. But they will bring some rain as low

pressure moves in. Today, it is a benign story, a lot of cloud around,

this window of finer weather over the south-east. The thicker rain to

the north and west will slowly push in through the latter stages of day.

We have rain pushing into the far south-west and the wind

strengthening and into Northern Ireland by the middle of day. But a

good slice of dry weather. That will be the story as we move through the

bulk of Scotland, ten or 11 degrees. But look at the rain in Northern

Ireland in the middle of afternoon. Clouding over for Wales and the

south-west and we will see some rain, but for central and southern a

eastern areas drier with temperatures up to 16 degrees. Not

bad for this time of year. But the winds will strengthen and the rain

will push in from the south-west. Some of it heavy through the night.

Particularly across Cornwall and into Wales and it will be sitting

there tomorrow. Ahead of it a blanket of cloud. A mild night. We

start off tomorrow with a good slice of dry weather to be found to the

north and east. Some early morning mist and fog. And still some rain in

the south-west. It will move erratically north and east. If

you're ahead of main band of rain it is mild with that southerly winds

allowing temperatures of up to 18 degrees. But on the the cloud and

wind disappointing. By Wednesday, low pressure dictating the weather a

little and that front continues to push north and east and it will take

the wind and rain with it. But a disappointing day through Scotland

and northern England. Further south mild and bright in the afternoon and

highs into the mid to high teens again. So plenty of weather this

week and more the same time same place tomorrow.

Hello. It's Monday. It's just after 10am.

Could red and processed meat really be as dangerous to our health

Global health experts are expected to say that in an hour's time.

We will have the latest from northern Afghanistan where a

powerful earthquake lasting 60 seconds. Struck. Tremors were felt

in Pakistan and India. We will be live in Karachi. Calls for all cases

where a cyclist is killed by a car to be referred to prosecutors. After

Germaine Greer said transgender women aren't really women, the star

of Boy Meets Girl tells us her views are outdated, outmoded and

outrageous. In sport, Lewis Hamilton is the

Formula One world champion for 2015. He is now only the second ever

British driver to win three world titles. Back with you in a minute.

The Government's facing a possible defeat

Critics say that three million families could lose an average

of ?1,000 a year because of the changes.

It will all be voted on later by the House of Lords.

We spoke to Janette Davey, a mum of six, who will be affected

I already work every physical hour I can. No one said this is not going

to be tough. All I would say is, it is much harder, if we don't do

anything, if we allow the deficit to get out of control and if borrow too

much and tax too much. Four people have been killed in an

earthquake that struck in Northern Pakistan. The quake was felt in

India and Pakistan. More on that after this news bulletin.

100,000 spaces will be created at migrant reception centres in Greece

and Slovenia after an agreement in Brussels. Hundreds of police are

being sent to the country to secure their borders.

We will find out this morning whether some meats should be classed

as something that can give you cancer. The World Health

Organization has been reviewing evidence on whether red and

processed meats increase the risk of the diseases. Meat producers are

already critical. Official UK advice is that red meat can be part of a

healthy diet. The former Director of Public Prosecutions tells this

programme there needs to be a re-think of how the way cyclists

death cases are decided. Sir Keir Starmer says the Crown Prosecution

Service should make that decision that. I think there is a very strong

case for saying where there is a death involved f it is serious

enough to have had a criminal investigation then it really ought

to go off to the CPS for a final decision.

We will talk more about those views between 10.30am and 11am. Time for

the sport and here is Ore. Let's talk about Lewis Hamilton. Why don't

we? He is moving into Formula One history. He is the second British

driver to win three world titles. 2008 was his first, in 2014 Hamilton

made it two and the Mercedes driver secured back-to-back titles after

win ago thrilling US Grand Prix in Texas of the let's talk to Britain's

1992 world champion, Nigel Mansell. Good morning to you, Nigel Good

morning to you, how are you? We are very well. Let's talk about Lewis

because before this season, he was a great. Now this guy is one of the

greats, right? Yeah. I just think it is absolutely brilliant. No one can

take away the achievement of winning three World Championships, but the

US Grand Prix was the greatest winner of all yesterday. What

sensational entertainment everybody had from accidents to crashes, to

safety car, to obviously Lewis getting the most fantastic start off

the grid and being in control pret why much all the way through the

race. The race yesterday had everything for everybody. And this

is really an example of what kind of a driver he is because he is the

fans rifr, he is a drivers' driver and people talk about the car he

has, he is ahead of the game when it comes to his competitors, but he

really shows when it comes to the crunch, that he is one of the best

drivers on the grid and as he showed in the last three world titles, the

best driver? The thing is in this present era, there is only a couple

of teams that can be competitive and obviously Lewis is heading up the

Mercedes team with Nico. Nico is the only person who could have won the

World Championship from him this year and obviously had the upper

hand with Nico and he demonstrated that yesterday with the last stop

and new tyres. He put Nico under pressure. It was one small error and

all of a sudden, job got done in the lead, win the race, win the World

Championship and it is marvellous. So yeah, I mean, I don't see anybody

really holding a light to him for 2016. I think Mercedes will still be

incredibly dominant. The only team next year that might surprise us is

Ferrari, but I mean my goodness me, I think Nico and Lewis between them

will be showing everybody the way going into next year. What about

that rivalry though, Nigel? Because it has been heated between Lewis and

Nico for a couple of seasons now, but yesterday after the race, it was

a little bit warm if you like when the two came together. Every driver

needs a rivalry to better themselves and it was the case when it comes to

Lewis Hamilton? Let's be fair to Nico, he is human. He just lost the

race. He could have won it and he could have extended the championship

for another race, but the inevitable would have happened anyway and Lewis

would have been world champion, but he didn't, he made that small

mistake. Lewis has put him under pressure all year and it is going to

be an incredible rivalry going into 2016, but Lewis, I feel for myself

that he will just get better and better. I said this a couple of

years ago and thank you Lewis for proving me right because I think he

is enjoying life. He is enjog his racing, you know, and he will just

get better. I really feel he'll get better. We can hear how big a fan

you are. He gained global fans. Nigel Mansell, for now, thank you

very much indeed. Let's wrap up some of the other sport for you.

England's cricketers are facing defeat in the second Test Match

against Pakistan in Dubai. Chasing an unlikely victory target of 491,

they are struggling on 251-#. Pakistan needing just three more

wickets to win the match. It looks like England are going to go one

down in the series with a match left to play.

There were no goals in the Manchester derby yesterday. And

Liverpool and Southampton drew 1-1, but there were goals da lower on the

South Coast. Spurs thrashed Bournemouth 5-1.

There was a hat-trick in the rugby two. Australia beat Argentina at

Twickenham yesterday putting them through a fourth World Cup final.

They will face New Zealand next Saturday. Disappointment for

Argentina and Maradona and for their coach who couldn't really hide his

disappointment at the final whistle. The Wallabies go through to the

final. They are happy. There is the Argentina coach, he is not happy. We

will see if it is Australia or New Zealand could come out on top.

Good morning and welcome to the programme, we're on BBC Two and

Many of you getting in touch about tax credits. Ben jal minute said,

"My wife and I are teaching assistants in state primary schools.

After taking into account the rise in the personal threshold, our

family stand to lose ?2,000 a year with the tax credit cuts. Why is

this burden being placed on the shoulders of those two out of ten

families on the lowest incomes?" Barbara e-mails to say "It is rich

coming from a Conservative MP to say the country can't afford to support

the poorest, but can increase the inheritance tax for the wealthy."

Andrew tweets, "Me and my wife just want a fair wage and not to have to

rely on tax credits. If the cuts go ahead, we will give up work."

You are welcome to get in touch. Your contributions to this

programme and your expertise Texts will be charged

at the standard network rate. You can watch

the programme online wherever you are via the BBC News app or

our website bbc.co.uk/victoria You can also subscribe to all

our features on the news app, by going to add topics

and searching Victoria Derbyshire. Let's get more on the earthquake.

Four people have been killed and dozens injured in Pakistan after a

strong earthquake hit neighbouring Afghanistan. Tremors have been

reported in Delhi, in India. The quake had a magnitude of 7.5. Let's

talk to someone who is in Pakistan. Various news agencies were reporting

that the epicentre was Pakistan, but I think you can say it was That's

what the Afghanistan? US geological survey are saying. That the

epicentre was in Afghanistan across the border from Pakistan. There is

plenty of damage in Northern Pakistan. It is a mountainous area

and the region is what affectedful we have reports of children getting

killed on the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan and houses

collapsing, people getting trapped, there are some injuries, but the

full-scale is not clear. It will be a while before we know the full

extent of the damage. How populated is this mountainous region? Well

there, is effectively the entire north of Pakistan. Not just this

region, but the northern part of north-west Pakistan. It is a large

area. The Prime Minister and army chief have already directed the army

to assess the damage and to move if necessary. So obviously it is a

fluid situation, but many people are really worried because it reminds

them of a massive earthquake ten years ago. We had that anniversary

on 8th October and 75,000 people were killed. People are fearful.

Local channels are showing pictures of people evacuating buildings.

Reports are still trickling in. Thank you.

Processed meat is expected to be listed as a cancer causing

substance, fresh red meat is expected to be regarded as bad for

your health. Dr Clare Knight is the health information manager, we are

joined by Shadow second for Food and Rural Affairs. Elizabeth is a mum of

one and a nutritionist and her family don't eat processed meat, but

eat red meat several times a week and Denis has been a butcher for 50

years. 50 years. He is owner of the fantastic sausage factory in Dorset.

Welcome all of you. How significant is this change of

advice from the World Health Organization going to be? We need to

wait and see what the report says. We can't talk about that report

until we see it. But the evidence has been building over previous

decades around red and processed meat a Cancer Research UK's

messaging hand been about making sure your diet is healthy and

balanced. As someone who was brought up on sausages twice a week,

sausages and mash twice a week, is that a lot? The research doesn't

point to a clear threshold if you like where the level is risky above

and safe below, but the Government have set recommendation if you're

eating around about 90 grams of red or processed meat What is that? It

is about sausages, a couple of sausages that's 60 grams. A day? Are

you saying that's all right? If you eat a lot, cut down to 70 grams,

that's a few pieces of bacon or a couple of sausages. So there is less

risk then. If you have the odd bacon sandwich and sausage and eat red or

processed meat infrequently, it is unlikely to do much to your risk of

cancer, but if if you are worried about it, eat less. They are

expected to put this in the same category as cigarettes? There is an

important distinction between the way that organisations which is part

of the World Health Organization look at cancer make their

classification. They look at whether or not the evidence is strong enough

to link something to cancer. So that doesn't necessarily, they don't talk

about how many cancers that causes. So we know that the evidence is

fairly strong around red and processed meat. We think that it

probably causes around about 8,000 cancers a year in the UK.

Cigarettes... Bowel cancers. Cigarettes we know cause 65,000

cases of cancer a year and kills up to two in three long-term smokers of

the it is a different level of risk. The risk is higher with smoking.

Denis, hello, thank you for coming on the programme. How often do you

eat red meat and processed meat? Most days I would say. I think the

Skype line has frozen. Isn't that typical? We will phone you on the

phone. What do you make of what we are expecting to hear from the WHO?

The important thing is that information is in the public domain

so people can make choices. It is not about banning people doing

anything or taking action to stop them, but about people making their

own choices. We have had that with smoking and we have had that

discussion with sugar with Jamie Oliver's Compiegne -- campaign. It

is important that people are well informed. There is so much

misinformation and conflicting stories in the papers about what is

good for you. I think... No it's still frozen. Let's try Elizabeth.

If the WHO say this, will it change the way you feed your family? I

think lumping red meat with processed meat is problematic.

They're separate. One is highly processed with levels of nitrates

that can react within the stomach. There is a higher risk of stomach

cancer with processed meat. That isn't the same with red meat. So the

so-called evidence needs unpacking. It is what you do to the meat that

counts. If you char it and burn it and barbecue it, and even if I yo

eat it raw there are instances of viruses being transmitted. You have

to up pack it and can't lump a natural food stuff with a processed

food stuff. Dennis, hello on the phone. Welcome again. How often do

you eat red meat? Most days. I eat sausages every day, because I make

them and I always have a taste. If if WHO says that too much of this

can cause bowel cancer, will you change your habits. Well it is a

sweeping statement, I make a premium sausage and we make over a million a

year and there are different grades of sausages, you can buy a pound of

sausages for 99 pence. Will there be different risks with the different

processed foods, will they make this clear or is it a sweeping statement

to scare the life out of everyone. Are you expecting evidence to back

this up? They will look at all the available evidence, which we have

have been basing our messaging on. Later today once the report is

announced we will be covering the findings of the report and producing

information on our web-site. So check out our blog and web-site for

more. There is check out our blog and web-site for

more. There is a difference between Ray cheap sausages and the high

premium stuff, that is proper meat. The leaked stories about the report

are correct, if so they will draw a distinction and come down hard on

processed meat, but talking about limiting red meat consumption to the

levels we have already heard about. Pit is worth saying that the red

meat has a vast array of nutrients. Red meat does offer benefits and it

is a good source of protein, but the evidence doesn't suggest it makes a

difference how high quality your meat is. It is the chemicals within

the meat that create problems when they reach the bowel and are

digested. It is not about whether it is cheap or high quality sausages.

It is in the meat itself. But the relative risk is not high. .

Compared to smoking, absolutely. Thank you. Very much. A couple of

meants, this said I'm getting away from bowel cancer, through the bacon

away. Up with says if people want to eat red meat let them get on it. One

says stay safe and go veggie. And no torture inflicted on animals. Still

to come. Four people have been killed in a powerful earthquake in

South Asia. And this news, I mentioned a military barracks in

Belgium has been attacked. The latest reported by associated press

is an attacker tried to crash his car through the gates of an army

barracks in Belgium, but fled in the vehicle after shots were fired. This

being announced by a government official. The incident occurred

south of Brussels. It is the site of one of Belgium's major military

barracks. Home to the second commando battalion. The defence

cabinet chief said one car tried to get into the barracks, there was one

person in the car, he fled. "Outmoded,

outdated and outrageous" - that's how the star of hit BBC Two comedy

drama Boy Meets Girl has described comments from feminist author

Germaine Greer that transgender Germaine Greer believes a man cannot

become a woman no matter what surgery they undergo, how they dress

or even how society perceives them. One of the most famous fem ips in

the world. Germaine Greer's bok The Female Eunuch became a Bible for

some feminist and said the way society was set up are pressed women

and turned them into eunuchs. It is impossible to castrate a woman. It

is only impossible, because it is assumed she has no sex from the

outset. Because she is assumed to be a castrated thing from the outset. I

didn't castrate women, Freud did. Her book tapped into the mood of

time when the liberation movements were encouraging women to burn their

bras. Since then she has never been far from the headlines. She appeared

on celebrity big brother, only to walk out. But it is her comments

about transgender women that pushed her back into the headlines. I'm not

saying people should not be allowed to go through that procedure. What

I'm saying it doesn't make them a woman. It is an opinion. Not a

prohibition. Carry on. If that is what you think it is you want to do.

So one lake Caitlin, who has been on the front of magazines and

apparently is getting an award for being glamour woman of year, what do

you think about that? I think it is misogynist. That plays a big part in

this. That a man who goes to these lengths will be a better woman than

someone who is born a woman. Are people you would say knellsly born a

woman or feeling female, if he feels more female. It seems to me that

what was going on there is that he, she, wanted the limelight that the

other female members of family were enjoying and has conquered it just

like that. Germaine Greer. Although professor Greer has held this view a

while, students have launched a petition to get her band. Let's talk

to Rebecca Root. She stars in a sit come with a transgender actor in a

lead role. I'm a transsexual. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Don't look now, but

isn't that Gary bead frl Geordie Shore. It could be his twin. Sorry.

Sorry. You were saying something. Leo, there is something I need to

tell you. I could tell you later or now. I would rather it will you now.

I was born with with a penis. The waiter standing beside her... Hi.

Hi. Are you ready to order. I think we might need a minute. Maybe a

little bit longer. No problem. Leo stares at Judy who, smiles. Do you

want to ask me anything. Just... Nothing too personal. So... You...

Yes? You were... You were born in the wrong body? Yes. Yes that's

right. I think we had the subtitled version there, but you got the gist.

Some of our conversation will be frank and direct and I know it is

half term, I have children myself. According to Germaine Greer you

aren't a woman? Yes, well she has an opinion and as I think I said

before, it is a very out of date opinion. And I would like to see her

say that to my face frankly. I didn't think she should. We did ask

her to come on the programme. She is travelling and can't. She gave us a

statement which has expletives that I will leave out.

Why are you laugh something Sorry, that is just, you did say you were

going to read the statement, I didn't know what it was going to be.

That leaves me absolutely gobsmacked. Beeping gobsmacked in

fact. This is something I would associate with the worst of gutter

press, not of something of an academic standing, a woman who

should know better than Germaine Greer. It is just ridiculous. And

to... Is it absurd or is it offensive? It is both. You know,

somebody said to me, when this blew up over the weekend, I said I would

come on the show, they said, oh, don't give her the oxygen of

publicity. The fact is it's... On the one hand it is tempting to

ignore her and not to give her a greater platform. But if we didn't

stand up to bullies they will continue bullying. So it should be

addressed and we will all move on and hopefully a more enlightened

society will understand and see her comments in the light that they

should be seen in. Which is that they are grossly offensive, quite

ludicrous and very out of date and out of line with the current... The

current... Way that the transcommunity is, we are having at

the moment. Are they as offensive as some of the worst racist comments

one might hear or sexist comments that one might whatter? Yes. -- one

might hear? Yes. You ask any trans Person and they will say what she

has been said is grossly offensive. When she said it is my opinion.

People have opinions about race and you know holocaust deniers and

they're not give an platform. Those opinions are insane really. She you

know as you know has fought against the discrimination of women, do you

think she is guilty now of the same kind of discrimination towards

transgender women? Yes, I think it is a real shame that she has a voice

and she has a certain platform in British society, you know global

society actually. And it is a shame she is using that platform in such a

negative bigoted derogatory way when she could use it for so much better.

This e-mail, Greer is correct in surgery does not change a man into a

woman. But there is more than surgery involved here. Surgery is

merely the cherry on the icing on the cake. She should spend a week

presenting as a man to experience a hint of what is like to live with

the incongrewence we have to endure. She is luckily not to have spent

decades of her life living with gender conflict.

It was horrible. That's a wonderful e-mail. You know, the ultimate

surgery is not everybody's destination. You know, there are as

many different experiences of being trance as there are trance people

and some people choose not to go through ultimate surgery, but for

many, they do. Before I made my decision to transition, I mean, I

felt I was, I felt I was going mad actually. It was probably the

hardest thing to live with for some 30 odd years before I realised I had

to do something about it, and I was going to end up six-feet under or in

a small urn or I had to transition so it really came down to that. Do I

want to live? I felt I wanted to live. Have you experienced

discrimination? Yeah. In what form? I have been attacked. I have been

beaten up. I have had things thrown at me, bottles, stones, names, and

believe me, I know we say sticks and stones break my bones names, but

names are just as offensive. Again Germaine Greer says well, women have

been called names for decades. You can't equate the two. I'm not saying

that, you know, that women don't have a right to have equality, of

pay, or representation in society, of course, but we're all human at

the end of the day. I am as human as you are, as anybody else in this

studio or watching this programme. We are all human. The fact is that

you know I suppose I'm very much a glass half full person. I made the

decision to live as I just said. It seems that Professor Greer is a

negative force. We are all talking about Star Wars and everything at

the moment. She is like the worst baddy in your classic panto really.

So after I transitioned life just became worth living and I, you know,

I would TV to the nature of the benefits of transitioning and the

support that you get from the NHS over burden though it is and from a

loving family and friends and people who stand by you and perhaps it's

that, you know, Professor Greer had difficulties in her life which she

is perhaps taking into other areas of her work and I feel sorry for

her. More comments. India tweets, "Gender is dictated by the brain,

not body parts and Germaine Greer is pre-historic." Another viewer says,

"Germaine Greer has become jaded about everything. It is time for her

to retire from public view." Another viewer says, "Born a man, always a

body no much how much you change your body and chuck cash." Another

viewer says, "Germaine Greer has proved she is just as ignorant as

any sexist." We'll continue to get the latest

on that powerful earthquake Reports say

at least four people have died. And

the woman who had pioneering surgery for spina bifida on her unborn child

while it was still in the womb. The Government faces possible

defeat in the House of Lords Ministers say the unelected Lords

would be over-reaching themselves if they vote down financial

measures approved by MPs. Opponents accuse them

of trying to force through reforms. A powerful earthquake has

struck northern Afghanistan. It's being reported that four people

have died in neighbouring Pakistan and the earthquake was felt

across northern India. The US geological survey has put

the magnitude of the quake at 7.7. Pm

Four people have been killed. Let's talk to a seismologist from the

United States geological survey earthquake centre. What can you tell

us? We have it as a 7.5 around 215 kilometres depth in the Hindu

mountains. This is in the north-eastern part of Afghanistan on

the border with Pakistan. We have reports of it being felt from

Afghanistan all the way to New Delhi in Northern India. Can you put into

context for us what 7.5 actually means? Well, it is a pretty big

earthquake even for this region. This region typically has smaller

earthquakes like threes and fours. This was much bigger. It releases a

lot more energy. We're seeing live pictures now from Islamabad which

show people who have left buildings in order to get outside. What kind

of damage would you expect with an earthquake of this magnitude? In

this region, with an earthquake of this magnitude there is the

potential for landslides and the shaking itself can cause damage and

part of it just depends on the infrastructure of the buildings in

this region. Thank you for the moment. Thank you very much for

talking to us. There are report that is a building

has collapsed in Rawaplindi 20 kilometres from Islamabadment more

in the next half an hour. An extra 100,000 spaces will be

created at migrant reception centres in Greece and Slovenia

after an agreement in Brussels. Hundreds more police are also

being sent to the countries to A gunman has tried to crash

his car through the gates Belgian prosecutors said several

shots were fired as the man tried to enter the

compound near the city of Namur. No one was hurt

and the man fled the scene. We'll find out later

whether meats should be classed as The World Health Organization has

been reviewing evidence on whether red

and processed meats like sausages Let's catch up with all

the sport now and join Ore. Let's bring you up to date with

the sporting headlines. Lewis Hamilton is the 2015

Formula One World Champion after He's now only the second British

driver to win three world titles England's cricketers are staring

down the barrel of defeat in Dubai. Set an unlikely 491 to win the

second Test against Pakistan. Lose and England go 1-0 down in

the series with one match to play. Spurs striker Harry Kane got back

amongst the goals in some style with a hat-trick

against Bournemouth. The England forward had only scored

once in the Premier League this season, before playing a big hand

in Tottenham's 5-1 win on the Australia are into a fourth Rugby

World Cup final. They will take on New Zealand. Losing out on a maiden

final was too much for the Argentina coach who couldn't hide his emotions

at the final whistle. A song by Madonna and the soundtrack by Evita

comes to mind! OK, enough! Thank you, Ore.

The way cycling deaths are treated by police and prosecutors may need

to change, the former Director of Public Prosecutions has told

Sir Keir Starmer says there's a very strong case for

the CPS to make the final decision on whether to prosecute in cases

113 cyclists died in accidents in 2014 - that's a figure

which has remained relatively steady over the last few years.

But a leading cycling charity tells us they've seen dozens of cases

where the families of cyclists who die on our roads feel let down

So are cyclists being properly protected by the police,

Anna Tatton-Brown, a BBC journalist who works

Her Dad died after he was knocked off his bike

The film contains some distressing images.

I'm Anna, and last year my dad died on his bike here in Central London.

I'm going to take a look at whether the families

of cyclists who die on our roads are let down by the police,

My dad was cycling home this way, up this Central London road,

when he was knocked off his bike, right there.

He was in hospital, in a coma for three weeks,

At the inquest into my father's death, the driver

She said it was like something falling from the sky.

Afterwards, the coroner's verdict was that

Society obviously depends on families joining together.

Here's my dad, Mick Mason, in happier times at my wedding.

He was a gentle, unassuming Geordie, who often had a twinkle in his eye.

My family and I had questions about how the police were investigating

Potential witnesses weren't chased as we would have liked, and they

didn't appear to be think about what we were going through as a family.

One officer even asked us if he wondered whether my dad might

A leading cycling charity who have helped me told us they have seen

dozens of cases like my dad's over the last few years.

They said the families of cyclists who die in road accidents often feel

disappointed with the way the cases have been dealt with by police,

One police chief defended the way officers handle cycling

deaths, but admitted she wouldn't cycle regularly in London.

Would I feel safe as a commuter in London? No, I wouldn't.

I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't do that.

Keir Starmer is the former Director of Public Prosecutions,

and used to make decisions on whether cases passed to him by the

He said that system might need to change.

I think there's a very strong case for saying where there's a death

involved, if it's serious enough to have had a criminal investigation,

then it really ought to go off to the CPS for a final decision.

Normally, the police investigate a crime and

then decide whether to pass it to prosecutors at the CPS, so what he's

I really wanted to talk to the Metropolitan Police

about my dad's case, but they sent me a statement instead.

We followed all available lines of inquiry in this case.

Mr Mason's family has already received is an apology

and an explanation for the miscommunication.

It is wrong, however, to suggest that the investigators

directly inferred or suggested that Mr Mason was in some way responsible

My family's experiences aren't unique,

and I wonder whether the problem might be a kind of institutional

Too often the starting point seems to be whether the cyclist could

My family and I still want to know what happened to my dad

on that street behind me, and the police aren't taking his case

any further, so the only option left to us is a private prosecution.

Lawyers acting for us will take on the case without the involvement

Now, clearly none of this is going to bring my dad back, but it might

get us a bit closer to knowing what happened to him on that night.

Let's talk to Julian Hunt, a former crown prosecutor who defends and

prosecutes in road traffic cases, Andrew Gilligan, London's Cycling

Commissioner, Rhia Favero, from the national cycling charity, the CTC.

Jaulian Hunt the complaint is not muff motorists are prosecuted when a

cyclist dies in a RTA? The real answer is trying to make roads safer

rather thab using the blunt instrument of the justice system.

More 20mph zones and more segregated lanes for cyclists. Andrew, is that

enough for you a more holistic view or if a relative of yours had an

killed in an RTA cycling to or from work, would you want justice? I was

disturbed by what That police officer said in your film. It is not

really true, cycling in London is safer than it used to be, in 198990

million cycle journeys 33 ending in death. We have got two problems with

safety. We have got actual safety where the story is really good in

London anyway, and we have got perceived safety where people don't

believe the figures or they don't know about them and don't think it

is safe and comments from the police... The chief constables said

they wouldn't cycle in London? I have a problem with that. There is

an implication what she was saying that actually in some cases the

cyclists are to blame for their own deaths by doing something she thinks

is dangerous and that may explain as your reporter was told was her

father to blame for his own death? That may explain the reasons why the

police are reluctant to act in these cases. There are numerous factors

that cause most traffic collisions. It can be speed. It can be the type

of vehicles involved, it is not normally simply a case of one person

driving badly. Most people would acknowledge that, you know, any

collision is not necessarily a very simple event. It can be complex, and

therefore the police need to investigate thoroughly and the issue

that has been brought forward in Anna's film that doesn't always seem

to happen? I can't comment on the individual cases themselves, but we

have always got to remember the context which is that in this

country, we do have some of the safest roads in the world. I think

there were 1700 road deaths last year. Which is course is 1700 too

many, but it is a low number. 100 cyclist in the UK are killed per

year. Again, a number which is too large, but we are getting there. And

as we embed cycling culture into this country and the number of

people cycling is growing every year, we are going to reach a

critical stage where we become like the Netherlands and Scandinavia. Do

you think that's going to happen, Maria?

We need better infrastructure and better enforcement. We seen a 37%

reduction in roads police numbers since about 2002. Over all police

numbers have only gone down by 4%. So they're taking the brunt of cuts

and the police force are going to face more cuts and the roads police

continue take more. So we need a holistic approach. What about those

wondering about the crying baby, we are going to meet a one-year-old!

The people you meet through your charity, do you believe that there

is an inherent bias against the families of cyclists who are killed

on our roads? There is, we see a bias throughout the whole criminal

justice system, the police, the Crown Prosecution Service and the

courts against cyclists, we see assumptions made about cyclists that

they were not wearing ing a helmet or were on a dual carriageway. Do

you come across that there is maybe, it is important to way a helmet and

high vis, but there is too much emphasis on that Yes, part of answer

is building the infrastructure and that is what we are doing in London

and part of reason we have had a better performance on cyclists than

the rest of country, dykeling deaths are -- cycling deaths are almost

flat and we are putting in more cycle lanes that will be open in a

few months. Those have caused controversy with our opponents, but

they are about making people safer on the roads. Do you think the

authorities let too much bad driving go unpunished? Yes, I think there

are not enough prosecutions and I think that that, it is only part of

answer, I'm clear that infrastructure is a bigger part and

making junctions in particular safer, that is where most cyclists

get killed and things like reducing the danger from heavy lorry and

making them fit extra safety devices. Another reason why the

death rate here is coming down. There is a lot the police and

criminal justice system could do that they're not. There is franky

again, the little girl we are about to meet. Do you think that is right.

The majority of motorists are not great drivers and we need to improve

our driving behaviour. That can only be done through three things,

infrastructure, educating drivers, so they improve particularly after

an offence and better enforcement so people are prosecuted and sentenced.

Thank you very much. More now on the earthquake which has struck Northern

Afghanistan. We are hearing from the Reuters news agency that five people

have been killed and 55 injured. This is according to the head of a

provincial hospital. The head of that hospital has been telling

Reuters this earthquake which we are told is 7.5 magnitude has killed

five people. And there are pictures from Pakistan state TV.

Gina Lavis was 20 weeks pregnant when her baby was diagnosed with

spina bifida which can lead to babies being born

with learning difficulties and paralysis of the lower limbs.

A month later she underwent a ground-breaking operation,

the first of its kind on the NHS, where the exposed spine

of her unborn child was corrected while it was still in the womb.

The surgery was a success and Frankie celebrated her first

Here's a little bit more information about spina bifida.

A section of the spinal column doesn't form properly.

The spinal cord is exposed through a gap in the skin to toxic

The severity varies, but it can lead to serious disability

Gina Lavis had to fly to Belgium to receive

the ground-breaking surgery by Professor Jan Duprest and his team.

A year after Frankie was born, he came to the UK recently to see

Frankie is fast approaching her first birthday,

but before the celebrations, there's another big event -

an appointment with the doctor who may have changed her life.

It will be nice to see him after the surgery last year,

but it's a bit nerve-racking as well to think what he might say

how well she is doing, or how well he doesn't think she is doing.

It is, yeah, I think she's changed a bit.

First Professor Duprest tickles Frankie's feet.

Next the professor wants to check the muscle tone in her legs.

Has she got the strength to push against him?

Finally, it was a big operation on a tiny baby, Frankie has been

This particular family is of course a case that you really look forward

to see with your own eyes how a big a child with a lesion,

that is extremely high in the spinal column, that this recovers so well

He has been impressed with how well Frankie's doing over there.

She's got movement, she has got no bowel and bladder

problems and she is just growing into a healthy, normal little girl.

And viewers in the South West can see more tonight on BBC1 Inside Out

at 7.30pm and everywhere else after on the BBC iPlayer.

Gina, Dan and Alfie and Frankie are here.

You have been so patient Alfie, you're such a good brother! Tell us

how your little girl is? She is doing fantastic. As you can see, she

is moving around and just full of beans. She has got poor muscle tone

in her legs, but apart from that she is normal. Dan when you found there

was a possibility of spina bifida, how did you react? I didn't really

know a lot about it, when Gina explained a bit about it, at first I

was like, being strong for Gina, when I was on my own it was

different. It was heartbreaking. We dream of the perfect pregnancy and

we wasn't going to have that. What about you Gina? Devastated

initially. I probably cried for two days. Because like Dan said, we

were, we went in for a scan to see our baby again and given this

devastating news that our baby would be disabled. But after a couple of

days, I thought, if is that is what it is going to be, get on with it.

You were told about the possibility of operation and you have to

consider that, this is major surgery and there are risks? Yes. There is

risks obviously to me going into premature labour and risks of not

coming her with her at all. It is a big risk for the rest of pregnancy.

It is a big commitment. A long operation a team of 22 I think? Yes.

There were quite a few. And after, I think, you said how did it go and

what did they say? They said, we thood do a pit more -- we had to do

a bit more work than we expected to do. But they said the operation was

a success and Gina will be out in a minute, give her a bit of time. She

will come around and then doze off. She looked up and said, I'm really

sorry and fell back asleep for a couple of hours. When they come out

and tell you it has been a success, it is getting to hear that. Relief.

Relief isn't it. Goodness me. Alfie, what do you think of your little

sis? Good. She is all right isn't she? She is good. You're a good big

brother. He is very helpful. When you met professor Duprest was what

that like? That was great, without him and the staff in the UK this

wouldn't have happen and we wouldn't be here with this fantastic little

girl. Things would have been so different. Thank you for coming on

and you have been so patient. Alfie well done. Frankie, thank you.

Thanks to all of you who have been getting in touch. Germaine Greer

said transgender women were not really women, Denise said how right

your guest is, everyone is a person, whatever their sex. Kim said, I

agree with Germaine Greer, does you have surgery doesn't make you a

woman. Claire said there are always bullies, it is time to respect all

individuals for their own choices. Treat others as you would wish to be

treated. What respect I may have had for Germaine Greer is lost. Her

comments are shameful and disrespectful. Sally said thank you

for airing this topic, I have a God child who has been considering this

and has been involved with her thought processes and I have been a

nurse for 35 years and trained at St Thomas's hospital where it was

pioneered and Miss Greer should be ashamed of herself. On cycle deaths,

one said I'm fed up with cyclists breaking the highway code, as a

pedestrian, I have been hit twice. And they should be fined for cycling

on the pavement. Sophie said, as a witness to a cyclist being killed by

a lorry, it affected me hugely and I now fear for cyclists. Thank you for

all those. If you want to watch our films, go to our programme page and

find the full interview with Rebecca Root and the conversation about tax

credits. Have a good day. We are back tomorrow at 9.15.