27/10/2015 Victoria Derbyshire


27/10/2015

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Hello it's Tuesday, it's 9.15, I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

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A double defeat for the Government in the Lords last night on cuts to

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tax credits, and anger among ministers about an unelected chamber

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Unelected Labour and Liberal Lords have defeated a financial matter

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passed by the elected House of Commons, and David Cameron and I are

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clear that this raises constitutional issues that need to

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be dealt with. We'll explain exactly what

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the votes last night is it right that

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an unelected bunch of Lords can vote Or are they doing exactly what you'd

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want from the second chamber Plus - a controversial legal

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principle called joint enterprise allows several people to be

:00:53.:00:55.

prosecuted for a crime, regardless This morning the way it's used will

:00:56.:00:57.

be examined in the supreme court. And preparing for the end

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of the world. We meet

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the British men who're getting ready to survive any potential disaster

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this country could face. If there was contagion and some

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zombie-like creatures came out to try to attack your... I would kill

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them. How, with a knife or something? With anything, with

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anything. Hello, welcome to the programme.

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We're on BBC Two and the BBC News Throughout the programme we'll bring

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you the latest breaking news and developing stories - including

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the latest figures which show how They're due out in

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around 15 minutes. Plus - as always we're

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keen to hear from you. And of course you can watch

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the programme online wherever you are - via the BBC news app or

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our website bbc.co.uk/victoria. And you can also subscribe to all

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our features on the news app, by going to 'add topics' and

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searching 'Victoria Derbyshire'. Labour say the Lords "spoke

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for the country" last night when they blocked the Government over

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its proposed cuts to tax credits. It means chancellor George Osborne

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will now have to rewrite his plans to cut the welfare budget

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and, potentially, have to find some of the ?4.4

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billion of savings elsewhere. The Chancellor now says he'll look

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at how he can ease the impact of his proposed reductions in tax

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credits on the lowest paid workers. Throughout the programme this

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morning we're really keen to hear from you to give us a sense

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of whether you think the Lords has stood up to the Government in order

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to protect those who'll lose out the most, or if you think the unelected

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chamber has over-stepped the mark. Traditionally the House of Lords

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don't block Government financial I want to be able to go home this

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evening knowing that I have done everything I can do to stop the

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wrong-headed, ill thought-through It is about, surely,

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respect for those who strive to do everything we asked of them,

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and now find themselves punished Do you want people who hitherto have

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been depending on work and tax credits now to be driven to

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the loan sharks of this country? I think it is perfectly possible

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with tweaking it to take more from the upper end of the tax

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credit scale and less from the lower They were civilised

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but it was brutal. The Government defeated on

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its cuts to tax credits not once... My Lords, they have voted contents

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307, not contents 277, But twice,

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the plans thrown out by the Lords. My Lords, they have voted

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contents 289, not contents 272. Unelected Labour and Liberal Lords

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have defeated a financial matter passed

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by the elected House of Commons, and David Cameron and I are clear

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that this raises constitutional However,

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it has happened and now we must I said I would listen, and that

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is precisely what I intend to do. David Cameron has now ordered a

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rapid review into the House of Lords relationship with the Commons

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on financial matters. After 10am we'll explain exactly

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what those changes mean for you, but now we can speak to the independent

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crossbench peer Baroness Meacher, who put forward one of the motions

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in the Lords last night delaying the changes to tax credits

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and sending them back to Let's talk first about what is most

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important our audience, which is, as a result of the votes last night,

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does it mean the lowest paid workers who will be hit hardest by the cuts

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to tax credits would be hit as hard? My understanding from the

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Chancellor is that he will now make arrangements for the transition so

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that hard-pressed families won't lose some tax credits immediately on

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April the 1st, that these cuts will be phased in, which will just make

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them a little bit easier to manage for people. But, in the end, the

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cuts will happen. It is not the job of the House of Lords to tell the

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Chancellor what to do, he will decide with the elected chamber.

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But, as a result of the defeats that you inflicted on the Government in

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those two votes, does that mean he has to immediately the cuts

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somehow? I think he has to ameliorate the cuts because he can

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see the feeling in the country is not with him, and I think in the

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elected house the Conservative backbenchers are also panicking, and

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I think the Government will lose a vote on Thursday in the elected

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house. I think the Chancellor knows he has to do something and we have

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simply held the regulation, we have not approved it, so that gives him

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time to do what the elected Government and elected house decide

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should be done, and I think that is a relief to everybody. Your

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particular amendment was he wanted the Government to go back and look

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at the impact on the poorest workers. We know that eight out of

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ten -- two out of ten will be worse off. People with cancer who cannot

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work full-time, people with a disabled child who needs carers,

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these are the people with low incomes and the people, as I

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understand it, that will lose the most and will not have that loss

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made up by the tax threshold increase, although I support the tax

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threshold increase, but they will not benefit from those things, the

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people at the bottom. Those are the people I am most concerned about and

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I hope the Chancellor will now protect them. We have asked our

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audience to tell us if they think you and your fellow peers did the

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right thing, whether it is right for an unelected group of peers to

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effectively defeat the elected Government, only elected in May, on

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its manifesto. Ian said, Hallelujah, the House of Lords has

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done something worthy of note! Maybe it is not a waste of money after

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all, well done your honour WHO. Alan said, I thought the Lords were

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a waste of time but I have changed my mind, I am full of admiration for

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those who stood against oppressive cuts to those less well off in our

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community. If constitutional powers have been exceeded, then good, maybe

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we need to look at the role of the Lords.

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Another says, well done the Lords and ladies who stood for what is

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right in our society. Despite what some members of our

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audience thing, which is obviously only a tiny snapshot, you could be

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in trouble As the Government says it will have a rapid review to

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determine what sort of relationship the Lords has with the House of

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Commons. What did you understand by a rapid review? Well, presumably

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considering our powers. I think it was very courageous, if I may say

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so, particularly of my colleagues, the crossbenchers, to support my

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amendment when the threats were already there, the Government

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threatening to disable the House of Lords, and yet we went through with

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this motion because we are so concerned about the impact of these

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deep cuts on very vulnerable people. But the fact is the Government are

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all-powerful, they can do what they like. But what I hope is they will

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be honourable and respect the fact that my amendment only asks them to

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think again and only as them to listen to their elected colleagues

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in the House of Commons, who will be having a debate and a vote on

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Thursday, and I anticipate the Government will lose that vote, and

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that is the important boat and the Government really need to listen to

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the elected house. Thank you very much for coming on the programme.

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Get some sleep, I know you have not had much!

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Still to come in the programme, the latest economic growth figures due

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out in about five minutes and the markets expect a contraction in the

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UK economy. In around 40 minutes times

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the Supreme Court is to review the law of joint enterprise in murder

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cases, which campaigners claim has As our reporter Jim Reed explains,

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joint enterprise allows several people to be prosecuted, regardless

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of the part played by each person. What, girl's man?

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Yeah, fam? You disrespecting me?

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Hey, listen, yeah? A Met Police video from a couple

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of years back. The person with the knife, the girl

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egging him on, the friend who The answer, of course,

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could be all three. Joint enterprise is not a law

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but a legal principle. To be guilty of murder,

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you don't have to be the one The test is whether a member

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of a group or gang should be able to foresee that another member

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might commit serious bodily harm. The jury has found both Gary Dobson

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and David Norris guilty In a case of Stephen Lawrence,

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the police could never prove who But, after a long wait,

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his family got some justice when Gary Dobson and Stephen Norris we

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given life sentences, both

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convicted under joint enterprise. It was first used as a deterrent to

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stop people getting involved It's something police

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and prosecutors have started to rely on more, especially

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in complex gang killings. Research out in 2014 found that over

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the past eight years, at least 1800 people were prosecuted

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under joint enterprise - more than Last night, Victoria Station was

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brought to a standstill after The victim was chased into the

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station and stabbed when he was 12 teenagers have appeared

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in court in London charged with Take the death of 15-year-old

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Sofyen Belamouadden at a station in London, the biggest ever

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prosecution of a gang of a murder. Eight were convicted in total,

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including a 16-year-old. He was carrying a weapon,

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but was outside the station Critics say the law is just too

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blunt and can lead to the wrong Backers say it is often

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the only way of getting any form of justice in complex cases where

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gangs might be involved. Let's talk to our legal eagle Clive

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Coleman. Why is today's hearing so unusual?

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It comes at a time when there is a huge amount of controversy about

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joint enterprise, so the Supreme Court and judicial committee of the

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privy Council, which he is a huge amount of controversy about joint

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enterprise, so the Supreme Court and judicial committee of the privy

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Council, which who inflicted the fatal blow, both of whom said they

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were wrongly convicted as a result of joint enterprise. The controversy

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at the heart of this, Victoria, is that in this country we don't have

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first degree, second-degree murder, we just have the murder. When you

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have a whole group of in a murder, a gang, joint enterprise is an

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incredibly powerful prosecuting tool that allows the net to be thrown

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over a wall of them, even though they may have played very, very

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different parts. As the film illustrated, many people leave the

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test at the heart of joint enterprise is simply too low. You

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don't have to prove intent, you simply have to prove that one member

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of the group could have foreseen that another member of the group

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might, and I stress the word might, go on either to kill or cause

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serious bodily harm. Many believe that that means that bit part

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players, people who are not really players at all, who happened to be

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at the scene, can be hauled into the prosecution and, as a result,

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prosecuted for murder and, if convicted, they will be given the

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mandatory life sentence. Campaigners say they are working with as many as

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600 people who they claim have been wrongly convicted as a result of

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joint enterprise murder. Why is today significant? Because these two

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cases give a very powerful court the opportunity to look at that critical

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test, and they could change it. They could make it, for instance, that

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you have to foresee that there is a probability that someone might kill

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or cause serious bodily harm, rather than merely a possibility. There is

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a huge amount of interest over this two day hearing and campaigners,

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people in prison as a result of joint enterprise convictions, and of

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course the families of victims, will be looking at this hearing very,

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very closely. We will bring the latest news and

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sport in a moment, but first, let's talk Dude Janet Cunliffe, whose son

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was jailed in 2008 when he was 16, for the murder of Gary new love in

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Mr Newlove died from head injuries after being attacked by

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What is your issue with joint enterprise concerning your son's

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case? First of all, Jordan did not take part in the attack. How do you

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know? The pathologist described the injuries to Mr Newlove as a very

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hard kick or punch, and Jordan did not have any marks in his hands or

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feet, and he would have done had he been involved in the violence. We

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know that Jordan did not pay a part in the attack. Nonetheless he was

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prosecuted under joint enterprise that he had some kind of foresight

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that somebody else in the group might attack somebody? At the time

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of the trial we did not know about joint enterprise, we did not

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understand how you defend yourself against this kind of charge, and we

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thought we were defending Jordan against the actual murder, not the

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fact that he could have possible foresight to murder. Which I find

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very difficult to get my head around. On the night that this

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happened, Jordan, he has a very rare eye condition which means that you

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could not even see what happened, so, to me, how can someone who

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cannot even see what is happening in front of them then have the

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foresight to predict what is going to happen and what it will lead to?

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It is a double injustice, I think, for Jordan.

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Almost all of those relatives say their loved one didn't do it.

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I disagree. I go on prison visits and I speak to lots of mums and dads

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and one of the things a who of them say to me, at least you know your

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son didn't kill anyone. I get the opposite. I get told that from

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families whose son, daughter, husband has committed the crime.

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They say they have more peace because they can forgive their son,

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daughter, husband and they can get over that and they can rehabilitate

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that. For someone like us, like my family, you can't rehabilitate

:17:19.:17:22.

someone who hasn't murdered anyone, and, you know, it is really

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difficult to get your head round that, your child is in prison for

:17:27.:17:31.

murder, even though the trial process itself proved he didn't

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commit the murder. The wife of Garry Newlove said she believes all ial

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process itself proved he didn't commit the murder. The wife of Garry

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Newlove said she believes all those prosecuted at the time "Are as

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guilty as the person doing the act." Yes, there were five people

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prosecuted at the time and two were acquitted by a jury. That is almost

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like saying she doesn't believe in the acquittal. You know, if you are

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going to believe in justice you have to believe in it in all sides. It

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has to be fair. What do you hope from this hearing which is scheduled

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to last for two days? The main thing, because when we talk about

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600 people in prison who are not guilty of murder, a lot are guilty

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of a crime. It isn't necessarily murder, and what we want from the

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Supreme Court is to, for them to sort of put, put the power back in

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the hands of judge, so if a case comes before them, and they can see

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that there are different actions done by different people, and they

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do get found guilty for those actions to put them in prison for

:18:29.:18:32.

the crime they have committed, not for the actual murder. So if you

:18:33.:18:37.

have someone who is at the periphery but, I don't know, they have caused

:18:38.:18:41.

some kind of crime that night, then put them in prison for that crime,

:18:42.:18:47.

not the mandatory life sentence for murder. I don't think juries realise

:18:48.:18:51.

when they find someone guilty they are putting them in prison for life.

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And I mean Jordan was 15. I didn't know until then we put children in

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prison for life sentence, I find that shocking as well.

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Thank you for coming on. A couple of comments from people watching. Mary

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tweets to say this. Lazy policing, has led to overuse of joint

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enterprise. Destroying community relations between young people and

:19:15.:19:18.

the police. Kath has said joint enterprise is simple. Convicting

:19:19.:19:21.

innocent people for crimes committed by others.

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It is callous, unjust and it needs reforming urgently.

:19:26.:19:28.

Thank you for your time today. We will report back of course on the

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hearing which is scheduled to last for a couple of days.

:19:36.:19:36.

Matthew Etherington was a Premier League footballer with plenty

:19:37.:19:40.

He will tell us in his first tv interview why he

:19:41.:19:44.

And we meet the "preppers" - the Britons fully equipped to

:19:45.:19:53.

Testify Our business reporter is here. What do the figures show? They

:19:54.:20:10.

show the economy is growing at 0ttt 5. That is down on what we saw in

:20:11.:20:14.

the months before. This is the measure between July and September

:20:15.:20:17.

of how quickly the economy is growing. It measures the economy. So

:20:18.:20:21.

which is increasing and getting smaller. So a half of one 1. It

:20:22.:20:25.

doesn't sound like a lot and it is not. The issue and it has been

:20:26.:20:30.

described this morning as stubborn. It does say all you need to know

:20:31.:20:33.

about the state of the economy. Yes it is growing. But not as fast as it

:20:34.:20:38.

was earlier in the year No, and by no means the same growth we want to

:20:39.:20:42.

see. So the issue I suppose that you can take a bit of optimism from is

:20:43.:20:46.

the fact it is going up and not down. Still it is not as good as it

:20:47.:20:51.

has been. Why not? Construction still pretty slow so the

:20:52.:20:55.

construction sector building house, offices, roads still struggling and

:20:56.:20:58.

the manufacturing sector, the things that we make in this country, again

:20:59.:21:02.

still pretty slow, so that is one of the biggest issues, and that is is

:21:03.:21:06.

really reflected because we are not selling as much abroad, because we

:21:07.:21:09.

have seen the well documented problems in Europe, they are still

:21:10.:21:12.

struggling, elsewhere in the world they are not buying as much of our

:21:13.:21:17.

stuff as we would like. It means the construction, manufacturing sectors

:21:18.:21:20.

are struggling. The big question, what does this mean for things like

:21:21.:21:23.

interest rates. All of these things are tied up. It removes the pressure

:21:24.:21:28.

from the Bank of England and the Governor to think about putting up

:21:29.:21:31.

the cost of borrowing, he has more time before that starts going up. As

:21:32.:21:35.

with have talked about. They don't want to raise interest rate, the

:21:36.:21:39.

cost of borrowing for mortgages and credit cards, they don't want do

:21:40.:21:43.

that too soon because it could choke off a economic recovery. Headline

:21:44.:21:49.

figure, 0.5%. It is not great but not as bad as it has been in the

:21:50.:21:50.

past. Thank you. The Government's forced

:21:51.:21:54.

by unelected peers to back down on tax credits - but says nothing

:21:55.:21:56.

is now ruled out in a rapid review The Lords voted to delay cuts to

:21:57.:22:00.

the benefit. But they're being accused

:22:01.:22:03.

of breaking parliamentary convention to 'wreck' a financial programme

:22:04.:22:05.

passed by MPs. Baroness Meacher who put forward one

:22:06.:22:18.

of the motions told us she understands the Chancellor will

:22:19.:22:21.

change the way the cuts are introduced. These cuts will be

:22:22.:22:26.

phased in, which will just make them a bit easier to manage for people,

:22:27.:22:30.

but in the end, the cuts will happen of course, it is not the job of the

:22:31.:22:33.

House of Lords to tell the Chancellor what to do. He will

:22:34.:22:35.

decide with the elected chamber. The Supreme Court is to review

:22:36.:22:40.

the use of the legal principle of joint enterprise, which allows

:22:41.:22:42.

several people to be charged with the same offence, regardless

:22:43.:22:45.

of the part played by each person. Campaigners claim it has led to

:22:46.:22:48.

numerous miscarriages of justice, with hundreds

:22:49.:22:50.

of young men being given mandatory life sentences for crimes in

:22:51.:22:52.

which they had only a minor role. Police are continuing to question a

:22:53.:22:58.

15-year-old boy from County Antrim in connection with last week's cyber

:22:59.:23:01.

attack on the TalkTalk website. Millions

:23:02.:23:03.

of customers have been warned that their personal data, including bank

:23:04.:23:05.

details and email addresses, may Let's catch up with all

:23:06.:23:07.

the sport now. Here is Jess. Hello. This morning we

:23:08.:23:26.

will be delving into the mind of Chelsea 's animated boss Jose

:23:27.:23:31.

Mourinho. He has been an outspoken colourful character, he has given us

:23:32.:23:34.

a few laughs but he is not having the best of times at the moment. He

:23:35.:23:38.

is in trouble again for alleged bad behaviour. He was sent to the stands

:23:39.:23:42.

in Chelsea's 2-1 loss at the weekend for comments he made to the referee

:23:43.:23:47.

and faces a misconducted charge. It is not the first time he has been in

:23:48.:23:54.

trouble this season. He has been fined ?50,000 and been given an

:23:55.:23:59.

extended stadium ban, on the pitch, Chelsea, a team that won the Premier

:24:00.:24:03.

League soen Vincingly last season are 15th. They have had five losses

:24:04.:24:07.

in ten league games and Mourinho thinks he is still the best man for

:24:08.:24:11.

the job. They play Stoke in the League Cup tonight. They have a big

:24:12.:24:14.

game against Liverpool at the weekend but is time running out for

:24:15.:24:17.

the Portuguese to turn the club round? Reports in the media suggest

:24:18.:24:21.

that his job may be in jeopardy, if he doesn't get a result against

:24:22.:24:26.

Liverpool. We will discuss that further at 10am, with football

:24:27.:24:28.

journalist Patrick Barkley. Hopefully I will see you then.

:24:29.:24:33.

Hopefully? I hope so. I definitely will! Thank you. Next our reporter

:24:34.:24:37.

meets the preppers. Next this morning,

:24:38.:24:42.

our reporter Benjamin Zand meets the "preppers" - the men who're

:24:43.:24:44.

fixated on making sure they're fully equipped to survive

:24:45.:24:47.

in the event of a catastrophe. Every possible option is being

:24:48.:24:51.

considered to protect a British hostage being held by Islamic State

:24:52.:24:54.

militants. The world can be a scary place,

:24:55.:24:56.

with the threat of terrorist attacks, fear of war or

:24:57.:24:58.

outbreaks of diseases like Ebola. With the latest figures showing

:24:59.:25:04.

nearly 5000 people infected with the virus, President Obama is now

:25:05.:25:08.

calling it a potential threat to Most of us managed to carry

:25:09.:25:10.

on our daily lives, Instead, they think we need to

:25:11.:25:16.

prepare and plan to make Actually, we should have

:25:17.:25:26.

been doing it years ago. These people, mostly men,

:25:27.:25:33.

are called preppers. I'm calling you because I

:25:34.:25:53.

near the shop, The Prepper Shop, and I just need to figure out what

:25:54.:26:09.

to put in my bag. So, as a man with currently no

:26:10.:26:29.

knowledge, I need everything? So, in a bid to potentially survive

:26:30.:26:37.

the Apocalypse, I'm on my way to learn a bit more

:26:38.:26:48.

about the world of prepping. A kind proper called Roach,

:26:49.:26:51.

also known as Michael, But first I'm heading to the UK's

:26:52.:26:53.

only prepping shop, conveniently called The Prepper Shop, to pick up

:26:54.:26:59.

some supplies and find out It even has a pick up truck with the

:27:00.:27:02.

Confederate flag in dice his window. How you doing, mate?

:27:03.:27:09.

Nice to meet you. Thanks for coming out.

:27:10.:27:15.

No problem. Is this the only prepping shop

:27:16.:27:16.

in the UK? In Europe, we are the only one,

:27:17.:27:18.

still. So, a large proportion

:27:19.:27:20.

of it is just practical stuff. Handcuffs is a bit strange,

:27:21.:27:27.

why would you need handcuffs? I suppose it's more of a case

:27:28.:27:29.

if there is rioting, you are in It seems like knives are an integral

:27:30.:27:35.

part of the prepping experience? If you are in the woods

:27:36.:27:42.

in a survival situation, You have some pretty hefty knives,

:27:43.:27:45.

are you not concerned some people might be using these

:27:46.:27:49.

for ulterior motives? Yeah, I would have thought

:27:50.:27:50.

if somebody was, they are going to buy a ?2.99 kitchen knife or grab

:27:51.:27:58.

something from their kitchen. The law says

:27:59.:28:01.

in order to carry knives like these It is safe to say preppers carrying

:28:02.:28:03.

knives as big as these in public would find it harder to

:28:04.:28:10.

find a reason. I'm going on a bugging out

:28:11.:28:13.

trip with a man called Roach. Bugging out is

:28:14.:28:15.

a scenario has happened and you have It's been compromised or

:28:16.:28:20.

something like that, it's So you've got a bag prepacked,

:28:21.:28:25.

with everything you need, you can disappear off somewhere where people

:28:26.:28:30.

aren't going to find you. Just, like,

:28:31.:28:32.

hibernate until things... Lincoln Miles is the owner

:28:33.:28:35.

of what he calls Europe's only In other words commonly makes money

:28:36.:28:39.

from people worrying Something he's OK with,

:28:40.:28:43.

as he says no differently to owning His shop stocks food, gas masks,

:28:44.:28:49.

clothes in case of nuclear war Probably more for hunting,

:28:50.:28:56.

in the worst case scenario. If there is

:28:57.:29:00.

a complete social breakdown, the laws are gone, you can't eat,

:29:01.:29:02.

you can hunt an animal with it. Do think that is how

:29:03.:29:05.

bad things could get? This is what people are preparing

:29:06.:29:08.

for, you will need to arm yourselves People generally underestimated how

:29:09.:29:11.

easily it would go to pot if something happened, quite how

:29:12.:29:15.

easy social breakdown would occur. People go to extreme lengths

:29:16.:29:17.

of their family is starving Knives and crossbows aren't

:29:18.:29:19.

the only controversial thing On the other side of the room,

:29:20.:29:23.

and tattooed onto his arm, A flight from the American Civil War

:29:24.:29:30.

that some link with racism, It's about relying on yourself,

:29:31.:29:33.

and not relying on someone else, the Government, any other services,

:29:34.:29:43.

your neighbours. Not relying on anyone else to

:29:44.:29:44.

help you out of a scenario. Do think we trust

:29:45.:29:50.

the Government too much? We believe a lot of what we are

:29:51.:29:52.

told and a lot of it is not true. I don't think a lot

:29:53.:29:57.

of it's going to happen. So, yeah,

:29:58.:29:59.

you've got to rely on yourself. On the other side

:30:00.:30:03.

of the shop that day was another As well as being a prepper, Pete

:30:04.:30:06.

works as a motivational life coach in

:30:07.:30:11.

the south of England and he agreed So, I need something

:30:12.:30:14.

that can create a fire. Something that is a container,

:30:15.:30:18.

a steel water bottle. As we were doing so,

:30:19.:30:21.

we got to talking about how he would Right, I'll follow you,

:30:22.:30:24.

wherever is best. There's many different examples

:30:25.:30:43.

of bugging out, in the woods, terra firma, this isn't

:30:44.:30:46.

the only version that I would do. The idea is basically that via

:30:47.:30:48.

canoe, there's going to be less people,

:30:49.:30:50.

via the waterways, there's not going So you are just constantly, like,

:30:51.:30:53.

prepared? You have got your belt on, this is

:30:54.:30:56.

like an everyday thing you have, Yeah, I've got my multitool here.

:30:57.:31:00.

I've got my torch here. Why are you so convinced

:31:01.:31:04.

something bad might happen? I'm not living on a knife edge,

:31:05.:31:07.

waiting for an apocalyptic situation I'm actually enjoying this activity

:31:08.:31:11.

because even if I wasn't a prepper or survivalist, this would

:31:12.:31:16.

be a leisure activity anyway. What exactly made you become

:31:17.:31:19.

a prepper? It was around about the time

:31:20.:31:20.

of the financial crash. Prior to that, about 20 years ago,

:31:21.:31:23.

I got thinking about certain things that were going

:31:24.:31:27.

on, globally, around the world, It's not the usual tool

:31:28.:31:29.

of choice for survival. I have an ex-partner who is

:31:30.:31:36.

the mother of my son. They know what I'm like, they know

:31:37.:31:44.

that I'm a bit of a free spirit. Is your son going to jump

:31:45.:31:52.

on the canoe with you? He is sort of interested in it,

:31:53.:31:57.

because obviously I'm his dad. I've never forced anything on him,

:31:58.:32:00.

I would never force anything or dictate

:32:01.:32:02.

and preach anything to anybody. Is it like something you sit down

:32:03.:32:07.

with in the house, "OK, guys, today on the agenda is how to potentially

:32:08.:32:12.

bug out from the apocalypse?" You can't just disappear

:32:13.:32:15.

with yourself, can you? We do have strategies

:32:16.:32:17.

in place where certain family members can actually meet up

:32:18.:32:21.

and there is a particular location where a certain family member lives,

:32:22.:32:24.

which is in the middle of a farm. We didn't have an apocalypse the

:32:25.:32:27.

other year, when we had the riots. But within three days,

:32:28.:32:30.

major cities all up and down the country were having,

:32:31.:32:32.

whether it was anarchy, whatever you want to call it, or just

:32:33.:32:35.

chancers, there were riots going I had a friend who lived

:32:36.:32:38.

in north-west London and she was trapped in her flat because

:32:39.:32:52.

downstairs was a no-go area where the law

:32:53.:32:55.

enforcement were not going in. There were fires,

:32:56.:32:56.

cars were being set alight and the lower ground floor

:32:57.:32:58.

properties were being broken into. So, with something like that,

:32:59.:33:01.

I would get out of Dodge. It wasn't an apocalypse,

:33:02.:33:03.

but it was a social breakdown. You would actually leave and get

:33:04.:33:06.

in a canoe Because of where I live,

:33:07.:33:08.

I'm quite lucky because I live What would the canoe do

:33:09.:33:13.

in that situation? What would the canoe do

:33:14.:33:15.

in a riot situation? It would get me to a location,

:33:16.:33:18.

it's a form of transit. You would kind of disappear to

:33:19.:33:26.

a riverbed, an island somewhere? Under the dark, low light tends

:33:27.:33:29.

to be better, as with any activity Right, guys, you're going to

:33:30.:33:33.

have to excuse me, because I've Good luck out there. What if I had a

:33:34.:33:40.

crossbow right now? You'd better have

:33:41.:33:53.

a good eyesight for the dark! As Pete paddled away

:33:54.:33:59.

into the darkness, I wondered whether he really thought any of

:34:00.:34:02.

this was actually going to happen. And, if it did, whether he truly

:34:03.:34:05.

thought the canoe would save him. I wondered this until my lack

:34:06.:34:09.

of preparation showed Preppers prepare for a huge range

:34:10.:34:11.

of potential disasters, from A zombie apocalypse is even kind

:34:12.:34:19.

of one, if the definition of zombie is someone infected when a

:34:20.:34:27.

pandemic sweeps across the nation. They train

:34:28.:34:33.

by holding bug-out drills, where they test their skills by fleeing

:34:34.:34:35.

their homes and trying to escape. And, as a new day began, I was on

:34:36.:34:37.

my way to meet the final person on OK, so Roach has told me to come to

:34:38.:34:42.

this door, Roach is an ex-military man who

:34:43.:34:46.

spent most of his life in the force. He is now retired and runs a YouTube

:34:47.:34:52.

channel. The channel features him with guns,

:34:53.:34:54.

camping out Hidden in his house are stores of

:34:55.:34:58.

food in case of disaster and he keeps a trailer to put on

:34:59.:35:08.

his car with enough supplies to keep But he says being

:35:09.:35:11.

a prepper isn't easy. People have attacked him and set

:35:12.:35:15.

his car alight as a consequence. Despite this, he agreed to show

:35:16.:35:18.

me an example of bugging out. I have my bug-out bag, I'm ready to

:35:19.:35:22.

learn to survive every possibility. The specific scenario we were doing

:35:23.:35:25.

was in the case of contagion, It's not

:35:26.:35:28.

the most inconspicuous tent, is it? Go out in the woods,

:35:29.:35:47.

tell me if you can see it. What this is

:35:48.:35:59.

for me is living simply. So the fact that we are

:36:00.:36:02.

in the woods is by the by. In the space of about 30 minutes we

:36:03.:36:15.

have set up camp, we've got a fire, we've got some food,

:36:16.:36:19.

he's cooking some bangers and mash. Life is good - but we're still

:36:20.:36:22.

in a forest, so it's not that good. If there was contagion,

:36:23.:36:28.

some zombie-like creatures came out I'd kill them.

:36:29.:36:30.

How? With a knife or something? With anything, like this.

:36:31.:36:35.

Would you try and... With anything, with your hands,

:36:36.:36:43.

with a piece of wood. If there were people that came?

:36:44.:36:48.

Yeah. Would that be

:36:49.:36:51.

the first thing you did? Ultimately, you know,

:36:52.:36:53.

there are so many possibles. So we built this place,

:36:54.:36:59.

which is impressive. What do you think this will

:37:00.:37:09.

protect you from? It's not going to protect you

:37:10.:37:18.

from nuclear war, is it, or anything like that?

:37:19.:37:21.

No. If everybody was fleeing

:37:22.:37:22.

from their house, there are probably So how far do you think this could

:37:23.:37:24.

realistically protect somebody? It doesn't matter.

:37:25.:37:29.

Today, right now, it's a safe If there was a pandemic,

:37:30.:37:33.

there aren't any other people here, There might be, though.

:37:34.:37:38.

There might be. And when that there are,

:37:39.:37:41.

we will have to assess those risks So, do you think that, deep

:37:42.:37:44.

down inside, because you have spent so long preparing for it, you kind

:37:45.:37:48.

of hope something is go to happen? I don't want bad things to

:37:49.:37:51.

happen to good people. Because, I suppose,

:37:52.:37:56.

most people don't really think about such consequences

:37:57.:38:10.

and such potential disasters. Yeah. That because I'm interested

:38:11.:38:12.

in everything. Some people would say that

:38:13.:38:20.

you are taking this too far. To a degree,

:38:21.:38:27.

they are absolutely right. What you could do is put every spare

:38:28.:38:30.

penny you've got in the bank You could pay

:38:31.:38:33.

off your mortgage ten years early. Whatever you decide you have to do

:38:34.:38:39.

to prepare for the future, It's hard to say how many preppers

:38:40.:38:43.

there are in the UK, as most are individuals who keep it

:38:44.:38:57.

behind closed doors. For the ones that do go public, like

:38:58.:39:01.

Roach, Pete and Lincoln, they are sometimes criticised and labelled

:39:02.:39:05.

as paranoid, seemingly playing army games to pass the time as they wait

:39:06.:39:09.

for something bad to happen. The preppers find comfort in the

:39:10.:39:12.

idea that they will have some sort of control of the outcome of their

:39:13.:39:20.

lives, no matter the circumstances. But whether all their preparations

:39:21.:39:23.

will give them any sort of advantage in the unlikely event the world

:39:24.:39:26.

falls apart is another question. Peer power -

:39:27.:39:38.

we'll have the latest as the House of Lords forces ministers to back

:39:39.:39:45.

down on tax credits. Who will be the next president

:39:46.:39:48.

of world football? We now know that eight men are

:39:49.:40:01.

competing for the top job at Fifa. The vacancy emerged following Sepp

:40:02.:40:05.

Blatter's suspension amid conspiracy allegations, which he denied.

:40:06.:40:08.

One of the men keen for the job is the president

:40:09.:40:11.

His name is Sheikh Salman bin Ibrahim Al Khalifa.

:40:12.:40:14.

He's been talking exclusively to our sports reporter Richard Conway,

:40:15.:40:17.

Who is this man? He is the most famous man in world football that

:40:18.:40:22.

most people have probably never heard of! And has been in the

:40:23.:40:25.

further two years and wants to be the next president, he thinks he can

:40:26.:40:31.

effect change. The election race has been split wide open for various

:40:32.:40:35.

reasons and he has emerged as probably one of the leading

:40:36.:40:38.

contenders. Does he have a name? His name is Sheik Salman. Bribery

:40:39.:40:44.

allegations, corruption allegations surrounding beaver over the last

:40:45.:40:48.

year. This man have questions over his human rights record. Back in

:40:49.:40:56.

2011 when the Arab Spring, the wave of pro-democracy demonstrations and

:40:57.:40:59.

protests swept across North Africa into the Middle East, it hit

:41:00.:41:03.

Bahrain, people came out onto the streets to demonstrate and protest,

:41:04.:41:07.

but Bahrain instigated a huge crackdown. They squashed the protest

:41:08.:41:12.

very quickly. As part of that, in the aftermath, there have been

:41:13.:41:16.

allegations that Sheik Salman headed a committee which identified

:41:17.:41:20.

footballers and athletes who had taken part in the pro-democracy

:41:21.:41:24.

marchers. I put this to him in my interview and he said very clearly

:41:25.:41:29.

that he had no part to play in it. These are false, nastily lies that

:41:30.:41:36.

have been repeated again and again. The past and the present. And to

:41:37.:41:43.

come with such allegations! Accusations, it is really not just

:41:44.:41:50.

damaging but really hurting -- to come with such accusations. Some

:41:51.:41:53.

people have other agendas on the table. So, Sheik Salman, along with

:41:54.:42:00.

the other presidential candidates, will have to pass and integrity

:42:01.:42:04.

check before being allowed to compete in the selection. What is an

:42:05.:42:09.

integrity check, and will it be enough to convince people that Fifa

:42:10.:42:14.

are turning over a newly? The selection committee is headed by an

:42:15.:42:17.

independent member of the for, a prominent businessmen in Switzerland

:42:18.:42:20.

and Italy. You will examine all of the candidates, there are grand

:42:21.:42:25.

papers, look into their past, and says, are you fit and proper to be

:42:26.:42:30.

the next Fifa President? It is a big job, given some of the allegations

:42:31.:42:34.

we have seen hanging over some of the candidates and that have been

:42:35.:42:37.

happening with beef over the past few months, but that is his job.

:42:38.:42:42.

Sheik Salman's job in the four months until the selection, which is

:42:43.:42:47.

February the 26th next year, is to convince enough of the 209 member

:42:48.:42:51.

associations that he can bring change to the organisation. He says

:42:52.:42:55.

he does not want to lead it in the way Sepp Blatter let Fifa, he wants

:42:56.:42:59.

to be different, a nonexecutive president, which means giving more

:43:00.:43:03.

power was, in his words, to the people who know football, who are

:43:04.:43:08.

professionals. He says that will safeguard Fifa's future.

:43:09.:43:12.

I'm not looking to be an executive president. I think we have to bring

:43:13.:43:17.

the right people in, we have to bring the professionals to do the

:43:18.:43:22.

job. And making the right choices in who you bring. Choosing the general

:43:23.:43:35.

secretary, if we consider a CEO, is an important decision and we have to

:43:36.:43:38.

make sure we choose the right person to handle the day-to-day job.

:43:39.:43:42.

One of the most intriguing things is that he does not want to be paid for

:43:43.:43:47.

this job. He says it was a nonexecutive president, about

:43:48.:43:50.

serving Fifa, serving football. That will come as a surprise to many. He

:43:51.:43:55.

is a rich man, clearly, but as he sees it it is about serving

:43:56.:43:59.

football, not taking. What does he say about the Russia and Qatar world

:44:00.:44:09.

cups, which are booming, with so much controversy over how they were

:44:10.:44:15.

one? 11 of the voters have been suspected, band, or are under

:44:16.:44:18.

investigation. Lots of people being the integrity of the vote is now in

:44:19.:44:23.

doubt, given the numbers involved. Sheik Salman says individuals may be

:44:24.:44:27.

at fault and they would have to be punished, but Russia needs to have

:44:28.:44:33.

that World Cup in 2018, and Qatar in 2022. He is a fierce defender of

:44:34.:44:35.

those world cups. I think Russia is the biggest

:44:36.:44:44.

country in the world. They have invested so much in the game. We are

:44:45.:44:58.

all, I think, the people who are left around here, supportive of

:44:59.:45:05.

Russia 2018. If any development occur, this is something else, but

:45:06.:45:08.

so far from all of the investigation that occurred in the past four, five

:45:09.:45:14.

years, there is nothing that came out. When are we going to just keep

:45:15.:45:21.

on assuming that there is something? If there are wrongdoings

:45:22.:45:25.

by individuals, then I think those individuals have been sanctioned or

:45:26.:45:31.

penalised, but it doesn't matter, it doesn't mean that the World Cup in

:45:32.:45:34.

Russia, there is something wrong with it. I think already Russia has

:45:35.:45:40.

started the stadium, they have started everything. It can get us

:45:41.:45:48.

into big legal battles about if and if, and I don't think we want to go

:45:49.:45:53.

there. Is that the same for Qatar as well? Absolutely. Qatar is not just

:45:54.:45:58.

a country hosting, the whole region is hosting this event. It is

:45:59.:46:03.

important for the region, not just for Qatar itself. We are all looking

:46:04.:46:06.

forward to have an event like this and I think it is right for regions

:46:07.:46:12.

like these to happen events like this.

:46:13.:46:19.

The race are come down to two. A South African has emerged as one of

:46:20.:46:29.

the contenders to. It will be intriguing to see how it plays out.

:46:30.:46:35.

Sepp Blatter has been suspended for 90 days, we should see a ban from

:46:36.:46:39.

Fifa coming down that will end his time in football. He hopes to try

:46:40.:46:41.

and clear his name. Thank you.

:46:42.:46:51.

It feels like the countdown to winter has started, doesn't it, but

:46:52.:46:56.

with warm air floodling up from the made trainian, between this area of

:46:57.:46:58.

low pressure temperatures are picking up. We saw the high Steens

:46:59.:47:05.

-- teens yesterday. You will notice the weather front lurking, that has

:47:06.:47:07.

produced ever I have rain already, more of that to come, as we go

:47:08.:47:12.

through to the middle of the day, that heavy rain pushing up in

:47:13.:47:15.

southern and western parts of Wales too. But still mild among the rain,

:47:16.:47:19.

with temperatures round about the mid teens. Fairly wet day for much

:47:20.:47:23.

of Northern Ireland. The rain staggering slowly into the North

:47:24.:47:26.

East. One of the warm spots though is likely to be across the

:47:27.:47:29.

north-west of Scotland. Here, lovely sunshine to come, but not across

:47:30.:47:36.

eastern Scotland. Here lots of cloud shrouding the hills and fog down

:47:37.:47:40.

eastern England. At lower levels we have had a foggy start to the day

:47:41.:47:43.

with temperatures picking up. There is the sign of the mild air, up

:47:44.:47:48.

round 17 degrees in London, even by early afternoon. We will keep the

:47:49.:47:52.

rain edging further north as the afternoon wears on, but sunny spells

:47:53.:47:56.

breaking through, south-east England, East Anglia, a bit misty

:47:57.:48:00.

over the hills but perhaps parts of North Wales, touching the high teen,

:48:01.:48:05.

north-west Scotland maybe 18-20 and the south-east popping up to 18, 19

:48:06.:48:10.

as well through this afternoon. Feeling pleasantly warm. Mild

:48:11.:48:13.

tonight because we will keep the winds coming from the same

:48:14.:48:17.

direction. A lot of cloud. The rain is change, moving further eastwards

:48:18.:48:20.

as the night wears on. That could allow fog to turn up in Wales, the

:48:21.:48:27.

West Midlands, down in the south-west but double figures.

:48:28.:48:30.

Tomorrow it is eastern Scotland, eastern England that get most of the

:48:31.:48:33.

rain, particularly through the early part of the day. Further west, the

:48:34.:48:37.

better the chance of getting a dry day, with good spells of sunshine

:48:38.:48:40.

coming through and in the sunshine, temperatures at least up into the

:48:41.:48:45.

mid teen, not as high as the warmer spots today. We keep an unsettled

:48:46.:48:48.

theme going through the latter part of the week. Another band of rain

:48:49.:48:52.

pushing from west to east during Thursday. Still on the mild side,

:48:53.:48:57.

let us do it all again on Friday. Some uncertainty about where the

:48:58.:49:00.

heaviest of the rain is likely to be on Friday, but that common theme,

:49:01.:49:03.

temperatures once again getting up to round about the mid teens. I

:49:04.:49:07.

think we can keep that going into the weekend too. This is an early

:49:08.:49:12.

look at the weekend forecast. You see low pressure tending to ease

:49:13.:49:15.

away. The winds coming in from the south, so on the mild side. Many

:49:16.:49:20.

places dry with pleasant spells of sunshine to come as well.

:49:21.:49:26.

Hello, I'm Victoria Derbyshire, welcome to the programme

:49:27.:49:27.

A double defeat for the government in the Lords last night on cuts to

:49:28.:49:33.

tax credits, and anger among ministers about an unelected chamber

:49:34.:49:35.

Unelected Labour and liberal Lord's have defeated a financial matter

:49:36.:49:47.

passed by the elected House of Commons, and David Cameron and I are

:49:48.:49:50.

clear that this raises constitutional issues that need to

:49:51.:49:53.

We'll explain exactly what the votes last night

:49:54.:49:56.

Is it right that an unelected bunch of Lords can vote

:49:57.:50:01.

Or are they doing exactly what you'd want from the second chamber

:50:02.:50:04.

You've been getting in touch throughout the prog.

:50:05.:50:07.

Les on email says, "The Lords were right to step in.

:50:08.:50:10.

The government may have been elected but they were not elected to pick

:50:11.:50:13.

Once again, a big thank you to the Lords."

:50:14.:50:17.

And Lee says, "I want to see the House of Lords abolished,

:50:18.:50:19.

but I'm glad to see that these callous cuts are to be delayed."

:50:20.:50:26.

We'll be finding out why some members of the Muslim community

:50:27.:50:28.

in Rotherham are boycotting South Yorkshire Police in a row about what

:50:29.:50:31.

they call the "demonisation" of Muslims in the town.

:50:32.:50:39.

Matthew Etherington was a Premier League footballer with plenty of

:50:40.:50:41.

money and a loving family - he will tell us in his first TV interview

:50:42.:50:45.

The rate at which the economy grows has dipped to a

:50:46.:50:59.

UK output was up by 0.5% between July and September, - compared to

:51:00.:51:04.

UK output was up by 0.5% between July and September, compared to

:51:05.:51:10.

That's partly due to the biggest fall in construction in three years.

:51:11.:51:15.

The rest of the news this morning - the Government's been forced

:51:16.:51:18.

by unelected peers to back down on tax credits, but says nothing

:51:19.:51:21.

is now ruled out in a rapid review of the House of Lords.

:51:22.:51:24.

The Lords voted to delay cuts to the benefit.

:51:25.:51:28.

But they're being accused of breaking parliamentary convention

:51:29.:51:30.

to "wreck"' a financial programme passed by MPs.

:51:31.:51:32.

Baroness Meacher, an independent crossbench peer who put forward one

:51:33.:51:34.

motions, told me she understands the Chancellor will change

:51:35.:51:36.

A 15-year-old boy arrested in connection with last week's

:51:37.:51:40.

cyber attack on the TalkTalk website has been released on bail.

:51:41.:51:43.

The teenager had been detained at an address in County Antrim

:51:44.:51:45.

Our correspondent Andy Martin is in Belfast with the latest.

:51:46.:51:48.

What is the latest Andy? He was released this mornlet. He was

:51:49.:51:56.

arrested yesterday afternoon, about 4.20 in what has been described as a

:51:57.:52:00.

joint operation between the Metropolitan Police in London, the

:52:01.:52:03.

Police Service of Northern Ireland, and the National Crime Agency, so it

:52:04.:52:07.

is obviously being taken seriously, however, how serious the attack was

:52:08.:52:11.

in the first place seems somewhat unclear. Last week we were told this

:52:12.:52:17.

was a significant and a sustained attack, however that was downgraded

:52:18.:52:20.

by the company yesterday somewhat, when they said they believed that

:52:21.:52:24.

the attack was smaller than originally thought. They have

:52:25.:52:29.

revealed that credit card details which it is believed were taken as

:52:30.:52:34.

part of this hack were only partial, so some of the numbers would have

:52:35.:52:44.

had Xs on them and Talk Talk insist this was not allowing any money to

:52:45.:52:48.

be withdrawn on its own. The shares fell by 12% in the company

:52:49.:52:51.

The Supreme Court is to review the legal principle

:52:52.:52:54.

of joint enterprise - which allows several people to be charged with

:52:55.:52:56.

the same offence, regardless of the part played by each person.

:52:57.:52:59.

Campaigners claim it has led to numerous miscarriages of justice,

:53:00.:53:01.

with hundreds of young men allegedly being given mandatory life

:53:02.:53:04.

sentences for crimes in which they had only a minor role.

:53:05.:53:07.

Canadian investigators have warned that it may take months to determine

:53:08.:53:10.

what caused the fatal sinking of a whale watching boat close to

:53:11.:53:13.

Five Britons were killed when the ship capsized on Sunday - one

:53:14.:53:16.

Those are the main news stories. Time for the sport now.

:53:17.:53:35.

It's a big week for Jose Mourinho Jess.

:53:36.:53:37.

Can he really be danger of getting the sack?

:53:38.:53:40.

After five defeats, his side, reining champions Chelsea are 15th.

:53:41.:53:47.

No wonder he looks like a man under pressure. That I lost to West Ham at

:53:48.:53:51.

the weekend, and Jose Mourinho was sent to the stands for comments he

:53:52.:53:55.

made to the referee, in what seems to be an increasingly troubled time

:53:56.:54:01.

for the Portuguese boss. Joining me is Patrick Barclay who has written

:54:02.:54:05.

books on Mourinho. I am interested to know what has gone wrong? It

:54:06.:54:10.

started from the first game of the season after the row he had with the

:54:11.:54:14.

team doctor. She left the club. Did that unsettled the ship? I think it

:54:15.:54:19.

was already unsettled. I think basically, you could, if you were

:54:20.:54:23.

really careful, you could see cracks towards the end, in the second half

:54:24.:54:31.

of last season, when he seemed to be actually causing Chelsea more

:54:32.:54:35.

problems than he solved, with his criticisms is of referees that were

:54:36.:54:38.

excessive. You remember the accusation of a campaign against

:54:39.:54:41.

Chelsea and you thought, accuse hob a minute, this is not tactical, that

:54:42.:54:49.

is paranoid. Obviously. They didn't have a good summer, they didn't do

:54:50.:54:54.

much in the transfer market. He went into the season, I think, already

:54:55.:54:59.

raw and on edge and the doctor case was so, I mean it is only my opinion

:55:00.:55:06.

but it is widely shared opinion he was so wrong in that, and so

:55:07.:55:11.

blatantly wrong not to apologise quickly, and put it right, that that

:55:12.:55:17.

can only have made things an awful lot worse, rubbed assault into his

:55:18.:55:21.

own wounds so to speak. If you look at Mourinho's career, he is a man

:55:22.:55:27.

used to success, does he have the experience to deal with losing an

:55:28.:55:32.

out of form players? Only limited. Never actually, yes, you, you know,

:55:33.:55:37.

out of form players never on this scale. Even at Real Madrid, where he

:55:38.:55:44.

fell out with a sort of core of experienced Spanish players, and

:55:45.:55:48.

that went on for a while. They still played for the club, even if they

:55:49.:55:52.

weren't playing for him. This is different. I mean, almost basically

:55:53.:56:01.

from one to 11-Plus substitutes they have all lost form simultaneously.

:56:02.:56:07.

While I think it subpoena pretty silly in football, to blame the

:56:08.:56:11.

manager for everything, it is becoming increasingly silly, in this

:56:12.:56:14.

case there is no other way of doing it. If everybody suddenly drops, so

:56:15.:56:23.

quickly, then it is clearly the manager's fault. You know, he, in

:56:24.:56:30.

his heart must know this, and he is sort of doing it. If everybody

:56:31.:56:33.

suddenly drops, so quickly, then it is clearly the manager's fault. You

:56:34.:56:36.

know, he, in his heart must know this, and he is sort of taking

:56:37.:56:39.

refuge in saying "I am always right, because I am always right, because I

:56:40.:56:42.

am always right." Which is in a toddler wouldn't be -- particularly

:56:43.:56:47.

attractive but in a grown man it is perturbing. Do you think his

:56:48.:56:51.

position is in jeopardy, could he get the sack? I think he could. I

:56:52.:56:59.

think any football manager can, particularly one whose owner Roman

:57:00.:57:03.

Abramovich, although he has appointed him twice and not

:57:04.:57:08.

regretted it, in terms of the trophies won, doesn't really, can't

:57:09.:57:12.

really afford any further embarrassment. I mean, if they beat,

:57:13.:57:17.

I mean they were pretty good with ten men in the second half at West

:57:18.:57:21.

Ham. There was a lot of the old Chelsea spirit there if they can

:57:22.:57:27.

carry it into the game with Liverpool, on Saturday lunchtime,

:57:28.:57:31.

then, you know, we might be able, we might be seeing the beginning of the

:57:32.:57:35.

end of this. Thank you so much. That is all we have time for, I will have

:57:36.:57:39.

to stop you. Sorry for interrupting you. That is all the sport for

:57:40.:57:44.

today. Hello, thank you for joining us this

:57:45.:57:48.

morning, welcome to the programme We're on BBC 2 and the BBC News

:57:49.:57:51.

Channel until 11 this morning. Your contributions to this

:57:52.:57:55.

programme and your expertise Here are some comments. Don said the

:57:56.:58:08.

pre-Budget reports is not April 1st. Is that new comedy? Derek says I,

:58:09.:58:13.

most are not impressed. Derek says by the time he pumped up the canoe

:58:14.:58:19.

he would have been eaten alive. One says what next? And Brenda says,

:58:20.:58:23.

being prepared is never a waste of time. Think of power cuts, being

:58:24.:58:29.

stuck on roads. It is never wrong. If you want to share the film you

:58:30.:58:30.

can find it on the programme page. Your contributions are really

:58:31.:58:41.

welcome, you expertise is key. Texts charged at the standard network

:58:42.:58:44.

rate. So here's what we've learned

:58:45.:58:55.

from last night's Lords vote on tax credits cuts,

:58:56.:58:57.

and some things we haven't learned. The Government's said this morning

:58:58.:59:00.

that changes will be announced in the Autumn Statement,

:59:01.:59:02.

the mini-Budget, There's talk

:59:03.:59:04.

of a constitutional crisis, and the Government's ruling nothing out

:59:05.:59:08.

about what it'll do to the Lords. So will these tax credit

:59:09.:59:11.

changes still happen? David Cameron has ordered a rapid

:59:12.:59:26.

review. So, the key question is of course, will these tax credit

:59:27.:59:30.

changes in their old form still happen. And the answer is, we kind

:59:31.:59:36.

of don't really know yet. Expect to hear more details over the coming

:59:37.:59:39.

months although George Osborne said he would look at helping in the

:59:40.:59:43.

transition period. What will the Government do to the House of Lords

:59:44.:59:46.

once the review is completed? Again, we don't know yet. So what does this

:59:47.:59:52.

mean for George Osborne's chances of being our next Prime Minister when

:59:53.:59:54.

David Cameron stands down. We don't know. There is a lot of things we

:59:55.:59:59.

don't know. But it is not the news Mr Osborne would have wanted and it

:00:00.:00:03.

is good news for his rival for the leadership of the Conservative

:00:04.:00:06.

Party, Boris Johnson. Let us talk to our political correspondent at

:00:07.:00:07.

Westminster. So where does this leave

:00:08.:00:11.

the debate now? Our political correspondent

:00:12.:00:13.

Chris Mason is in Westminster. To borrow a phrase that you were

:00:14.:00:21.

using there, I don't know. I think we need to use that perhaps again

:00:22.:00:26.

and again with a few of these question, there are three main

:00:27.:00:30.

implications, the implication for tax credits so some tweaking will go

:00:31.:00:33.

on in the Autumn Statement in round about a month's time but what kind

:00:34.:00:39.

of tweaking? Could there be a delay, so that this only affects new

:00:40.:00:44.

recipients of tax credits and there is a slow phasing in of the changes

:00:45.:00:49.

for those who are currently recipients, that would mean there

:00:50.:00:54.

wouldn't be letters developing on doormats round Christmas telling

:00:55.:00:57.

millions they would get a big drop in their household income. We don't

:00:58.:01:01.

know that is many the Chancellor is going to do. No doubt that is one

:01:02.:01:05.

thought among others being kicked round in the Treasury. George

:01:06.:01:09.

Osborne is in the House of Commons in the next hour or so, answering

:01:10.:01:13.

Treasury questions, so who knows we might get an insight there into what

:01:14.:01:17.

the Government is planning. Then as you say there is the implication for

:01:18.:01:21.

the House of Lords, and what the Government does with the

:01:22.:01:26.

relationship between the elected House of Commons and the House of

:01:27.:01:30.

Lords. Chris Grayling saying nothing is ruled out. He said nothing is

:01:31.:01:34.

ruled in, so back to that theme about us not knowing what they are

:01:35.:01:38.

going to do. And then the bigger question about what this might mean

:01:39.:01:42.

for who our next Prime Minister might be. It might mean not a great

:01:43.:01:47.

deal because politics moves quickly, and people might quickly forget

:01:48.:01:51.

this. But there is no disputing this has been a rough 24 hours at the end

:01:52.:01:56.

of a rough week, for George Osborne, so enter a politician with blonde

:01:57.:01:59.

hair who you might just have heard of. Here is Boris Johnson, he knows

:02:00.:02:04.

how to do a photo opportunity doing a tug-of-war this morning outside

:02:05.:02:08.

City Hall on the banks of the Thames. This was an event organised

:02:09.:02:13.

by the Royal British Legion ahead of Poppy Day. Boris Johnson reflecting

:02:14.:02:17.

his shoes office shoes weren't appropriate attire for grabbing hold

:02:18.:02:22.

of a bit of rope and trying to win a tug-of-war on grass.

:02:23.:02:30.

Here are his reflections on a tough time for George Osborne on what it

:02:31.:02:36.

means for the Government. I think the House of Lords is in grave

:02:37.:02:41.

danger of pushing its looks, frankly. This is not what they are

:02:42.:02:46.

there to do, they are a revising chamber, not bad to throw out

:02:47.:02:49.

financial bills from the elected House of Commons. And I think the

:02:50.:02:54.

Prime Minister and Chancellor are right to be aggrieved about that.

:02:55.:03:01.

The Chancellor McGeorge has said he is in listening mode, and that is

:03:02.:03:04.

completely right. What everybody wants, what George wants, what we

:03:05.:03:10.

all want is a way of reforming and unfair system in a way that helps

:03:11.:03:14.

the poorest and neediest. Was he in trouble causing mood this

:03:15.:03:19.

morning? No, he wasn't, it was very much the Government line we were

:03:20.:03:22.

hearing from the Mayor of London, setting out, as they see it, the

:03:23.:03:26.

industry is that the unelected House of Lords caused them so much grief

:03:27.:03:32.

last night -- the injustice. There was not any hint, we tried again and

:03:33.:03:39.

again to hand him enough rope, to see if he would say something a

:03:40.:03:43.

little bit spiky about George Osborne. He resisted the temptation.

:03:44.:03:49.

There is a thing! Thank you very much, Chris.

:03:50.:03:52.

Some more comments from you, we wanted to get some fear link from

:03:53.:03:55.

you about whether you thought the Lords did the right thing last

:03:56.:03:59.

night, a tiny snapshot, unscientific but it has never stopped us before!

:04:00.:04:05.

Let's have a look. One viewer says, finally, the House of Lords steps

:04:06.:04:09.

in. The cuts are unacceptable and it is great that Labour and Liberal

:04:10.:04:13.

peers saw some sense. A tweet says, the House of Lords

:04:14.:04:18.

acted correctly and proved that true democracy exists and we should not

:04:19.:04:22.

be bullied by the House of Commons. True democracy, unelected?

:04:23.:04:27.

Interesting. One more for now, what is the point of a second chamber is

:04:28.:04:31.

its sole purpose is to wave through bad Government legislation?

:04:32.:04:37.

Keep those coming in. You can tweet us or send us a message on Facebook

:04:38.:04:39.

or e-mail, and text as well. An investigation is underway

:04:40.:04:41.

in America after a video emerged apparently

:04:42.:04:43.

showing an officer throwing We can show you some

:04:44.:04:47.

of that film now. There is the opposite. That is a

:04:48.:05:06.

female pupil. This is at Spring Valley high school in Columbia,

:05:07.:05:07.

South Carolina. It's thought that this officer was

:05:08.:05:13.

called after He appears to restrain her around

:05:14.:05:16.

the neck, before quickly pulling her Soon after,

:05:17.:05:25.

he appears to throw the pupil The footage has been shared

:05:26.:05:28.

internationally on social media, with the hashtag

:05:29.:05:42.

"assault at Spring Valley High" used Much more to come on that, no doubt,

:05:43.:05:44.

on BBC News. In his first TV interview, former

:05:45.:05:53.

Premier League footballer Matthew Etherington will tell us

:05:54.:06:01.

about the devastating effect his gambling addiction had

:06:02.:06:03.

on his life both physically and emotionally and what made him

:06:04.:06:05.

finally seek the help he needed. Some members

:06:06.:06:08.

of the Muslim community in Rotherham have announced a boycott of

:06:09.:06:10.

South Yorkshire Police over what they call the "demonisation"

:06:11.:06:14.

of Muslims in the town. They say since the publication

:06:15.:06:17.

of the Jay report into child sexual exploitation, they've been under

:06:18.:06:22.

what they call "perpetual attack". The Jay report revealed

:06:23.:06:26.

around 1400 children were sexually exploited, predominantly by men

:06:27.:06:33.

of Pakistani heritage, in Muslims say Islamophobia in

:06:34.:06:36.

Rotherham is now at an all-time high and that recent demonstrations

:06:37.:06:51.

by political groups like Britain First mean they're fearful

:06:52.:06:53.

to leave their houses. These pictures we're

:06:54.:06:55.

about to show you were filmed by our reporter last month at a Britain

:06:56.:06:58.

First demonstration in Rotherham. Britain First! Fighting back!

:06:59.:07:01.

Britain First! Fighting back! We, the people of Rotherham who came

:07:02.:07:06.

out when the first Jay Report came out, we demonstrated on behalf

:07:07.:07:09.

of the victims. These guys are milking it

:07:10.:07:11.

because they're Islamophobes. They hate every Muslim, they hate

:07:12.:07:13.

Islam and they use every opportunity WHO ARE YA?

:07:14.:07:16.

WHO ARE YA? Islam will be banned,

:07:17.:07:18.

because Islam is utterly... So, as a consequence,

:07:19.:07:20.

freedom of religion, There should be no freedom of

:07:21.:07:27.

religion, for a religion like that. We can talk now to Muhbeen Hussain,

:07:28.:07:35.

the chair of the British Muslim Youth, who organised the boycott,

:07:36.:07:38.

and to South Yorkshire's Police and I would be grateful, gentlemen, if

:07:39.:07:48.

you would talk to each other. Muhbeen Hussain, tell Alan Billings

:07:49.:07:52.

why you are calling the boycott and what it means in practical terms?

:07:53.:07:57.

Firstly, I want to make it clear the boycott has not just been called by

:07:58.:08:00.

the British Muslim Youth but by and Alliance Party, the brother and

:08:01.:08:04.

community for Alliance, where every single mosque in rubber, and other

:08:05.:08:10.

organisations, have signed up to boycott any engagement with the

:08:11.:08:16.

police. What we are saying is that you -- is not that you boycott

:08:17.:08:21.

services from the police but that because the police have failed in

:08:22.:08:25.

tackling Islamophobia and communicating with our community, we

:08:26.:08:29.

will boycott any engagement with the police. To be clear, the reason is

:08:30.:08:35.

because you say when there are attacks on Muslim people or abuse of

:08:36.:08:39.

Muslim people, the police won't, what? First and foremost, the police

:08:40.:08:44.

pushed a pernicious lie, suggesting they did not make arrests in the

:08:45.:08:49.

grooming scandal because of fears of being called racist and other

:08:50.:08:55.

claims. Sorry, I was well aware that was one of the reasons that it was

:08:56.:09:00.

said the police did not investigate the men of Pakistani heritage for

:09:01.:09:04.

fear of being seen as racist. What are the other pernicious lies, as

:09:05.:09:08.

you describe them? They have come into our meetings and said one thing

:09:09.:09:12.

to our bases at community level, come to our community and recognised

:09:13.:09:15.

we have heightened tensions, but behind closed doors there has been

:09:16.:09:20.

no action taken. We have been told, for example, in one incident we can

:09:21.:09:25.

review CCTV footage. When they go back they say, there is no CCTV

:09:26.:09:30.

footage. These U-turns have been happening. You are unhappy with the

:09:31.:09:33.

way they have been investigating? And having in gauge went. We have

:09:34.:09:37.

been in isolation for the last 14 months, our women cannot go into the

:09:38.:09:46.

street, young people being bullied. 14 demonstrations have taken place,

:09:47.:09:48.

27 separate cases of Islamophobic abuse have been reported to Tell

:09:49.:09:57.

Mama, a Muslim aborting organisation. Are you saying the

:09:58.:10:01.

police are not investigated, is that your main issue? The problem we have

:10:02.:10:07.

is that the police are not putting any prevention schemes and projects

:10:08.:10:11.

in and therefore there is no point having engagement if our engagement

:10:12.:10:14.

and cohesion will not be taken on board. To be clear, what sort of

:10:15.:10:19.

prevention measures do you want to see put in place? Any, at the

:10:20.:10:24.

moment. There is an increase in Islamophobia. Have we spoken to the

:10:25.:10:28.

Muslim community? I don't talk about those people paid by the Council or

:10:29.:10:32.

police officers. What implementation have we done? Have we given young

:10:33.:10:43.

people in schools, people in the town centre, advice on how to report

:10:44.:10:46.

hate crime? The Prime Minister has called on separate reports, we have

:10:47.:10:48.

been campaigning for reporting on what has been done in South

:10:49.:10:51.

Yorkshire to be done to give people confidence in the police system.

:10:52.:10:55.

Frankly, nothing. Alan Billings, a huge lack of confidence in your

:10:56.:10:58.

force in South Yorkshire by the Muslim people in Rotherham. What do

:10:59.:11:04.

you say? IKEA what is being said. It is not by force, I am not the Chief

:11:05.:11:09.

Constable, I am police and crime commissioner so my job is to hold

:11:10.:11:12.

the police to account on behalf of the public. Idea what this section

:11:13.:11:17.

of the public is saying and accept there is something in what they are

:11:18.:11:20.

saying otherwise they would not be what they feel. My problem at the

:11:21.:11:23.

moment is we simply don't know where to go now if they won't talk to us.

:11:24.:11:27.

How do we know what the grievances are and what the complaints are? How

:11:28.:11:39.

come we put them right? It is essential now that we do not

:11:40.:11:42.

disengage but that we engage with this group, which I suspect may be a

:11:43.:11:45.

newly formed group, and that we come together to try to go forward. If we

:11:46.:11:48.

don't do that, all we have is complete negativity and that is

:11:49.:11:51.

exactly what Rotherham does not want, the people of Rotherham are

:11:52.:11:55.

sick and tired of feeling under the cosh all the time, they want to make

:11:56.:11:59.

progress, so I am happy to meet with this group to hear what they have to

:12:00.:12:03.

say to try to get to the bottom of what these grievances are and then

:12:04.:12:07.

to go to the police on their behalf and perhaps ultimately bring them

:12:08.:12:16.

and the police together again, if that is what is needed. We are all

:12:17.:12:19.

about engagement, we have had 14 months of engagement. If you ask a

:12:20.:12:22.

Muslim from Rotherham to walk into any other city in the country, I

:12:23.:12:26.

felt the same when I mention I am a Muslim from Rotherham in Europe, the

:12:27.:12:30.

stereotype of grooming is put on you, this is the feeling in the

:12:31.:12:33.

Muslim community in Rotherham. We want engagement and dialogue but we

:12:34.:12:39.

have boycotted engagement with South Yorkshire Police in Rotherham. We

:12:40.:12:42.

have had no calls from the Chief Constable's office. We will hold a

:12:43.:12:46.

dialogue but this boycott was not just called by myself but the

:12:47.:12:51.

alliances and community. If we can agree on a public meeting with the

:12:52.:12:55.

right stakeholders, we want engagement and insurances that we

:12:56.:12:58.

can be heard and listened to as equal citizens. We have had an

:12:59.:13:02.

unprecedented account of child sexual exploitation, we were the

:13:03.:13:07.

first Muslim organisation in the UK who came out whilst being called

:13:08.:13:11.

rumours, being blamed, having women and children attacked, pitches

:13:12.:13:14.

attacks, we still came out and said, we are against child sexual

:13:15.:13:19.

exploitation and stood with the victims of child sexual

:13:20.:13:22.

exploitation. IKEA what being said there and I am very happy to take up

:13:23.:13:30.

that request that we do now have a meeting and dialogue between myself

:13:31.:13:33.

as Police and Crime Commissioner and this particular group, and see where

:13:34.:13:37.

we can progress from there. If attempts in the past have failed, I

:13:38.:13:41.

am sorry about that, but the only way we will make any progress is by

:13:42.:13:44.

coming together and listening to what each has to say. We need

:13:45.:13:53.

assurances, we need action. For 14 months we have had false promises.

:13:54.:13:57.

If these promises are not false, if we can be provided with the simple

:13:58.:14:01.

things we ask for, which is to be recognised as an ordinarily

:14:02.:14:05.

community feeling the tensions that we do, and to be heard, then of

:14:06.:14:09.

course we can have dialogue, but for that to happen we need the right

:14:10.:14:12.

circumstances, the right stakeholders, and we need the public

:14:13.:14:15.

and community involved from day one because they are the people feeling

:14:16.:14:20.

the pressure. What I am saying to you is that I am ready to meet with

:14:21.:14:24.

you on your terms in any place that you want to name at any time you

:14:25.:14:28.

want a name, because I think that the last thing we want is a

:14:29.:14:32.

breakdown of relationships between us. The real enemy here is not the

:14:33.:14:36.

police and it is not different parts of our community here in South

:14:37.:14:40.

Yorkshire. It is those who come into our community, you mentioned the 14

:14:41.:14:44.

marches and demonstrations, that is what is disrupting towns like

:14:45.:14:49.

Rotherham, Doncaster, Sheffield, and it is that which we all have a

:14:50.:14:54.

vested interest in opposing. If we can come together and talk about

:14:55.:14:57.

where you think the police are letting you down, then I think we

:14:58.:15:00.

have the beginnings of a positive dialogue, and we can make sure there

:15:01.:15:04.

is real, positive action going forward. Will you do that? If we

:15:05.:15:10.

simply put off all communication, how can there be any movement

:15:11.:15:15.

forward? It is impossible. Apologies are not enough. But will you meet

:15:16.:15:22.

Alan Billings? We will speak to the community and the Alliance, the

:15:23.:15:25.

people involved. Dish Muslim youth is an individual stakeholder, over

:15:26.:15:32.

1000 people in one day find a petition saying they had no

:15:33.:15:36.

confidence... You will ask them? We will have a public meeting, we want

:15:37.:15:41.

dialogue but we need people to be held accountable for their failings,

:15:42.:15:44.

for telling us one thing, and we have proved where they have told us

:15:45.:15:47.

one thing in a community meeting and another behind closed doors. Will

:15:48.:15:52.

they be held accountable for those actions and those misconceptions?

:15:53.:15:56.

These blatant lies that they have provided us? I need to know what

:15:57.:16:00.

those issues are and the only way we can do that is by meeting and

:16:01.:16:09.

talking. Thank you both very much for coming on the programme. Alan

:16:10.:16:11.

Billings, Police and Crime Commissioner the South Yorkshire,

:16:12.:16:13.

and Muhbeen Hussain, thank you for your time.

:16:14.:16:14.

Thanks for joining us today - still to come before 11.

:16:15.:16:16.

Break news and it is to do with the family of Mark Duggan, who you will

:16:17.:16:33.

remember whose shootings sparked summer riots in 2011, they have won

:16:34.:16:38.

the right to appeal against an inquest decision he was lawfully

:16:39.:16:41.

killed. Last year an inquest jury concluded while he dinot have a gun

:16:42.:16:46.

in his hand when he was shot dead, -- did not. The police marksman did

:16:47.:16:52.

not behave unlawfully. The Duggan family and lawyers said the

:16:53.:16:56.

conclusions were contradictory. The officer involved said he believed

:16:57.:16:59.

Mark Duggan did have a weapon in his hand when he opened fire and he

:17:00.:17:02.

thought he was going to shoot at the police. The jury said it was more

:17:03.:17:06.

likely he had thrown a gun on to some grass 20 feet away and a weapon

:17:07.:17:09.

was found there. Well, today, a judge in the last minute or so as

:17:10.:17:15.

the Court of Appeal has granted the Duggan family permission to appeal

:17:16.:17:16.

against the inquest decision. Thanks for joining us today -

:17:17.:17:20.

still to come before 11. Matthew Etherington was a Premier

:17:21.:17:23.

League footballer with plenty He will tell us

:17:24.:17:25.

in his first TV interview why he The mystery of the deaf

:17:26.:17:32.

and mute Indian woman who returned home after becoming stranded

:17:33.:17:35.

in Pakistan for 13 years. Now there are questions

:17:36.:17:37.

about who her real family are. The Government's been forced

:17:38.:17:48.

by unelected peers to back down on tax credits, but says nothing is

:17:49.:17:56.

now ruled out in a rapid review The Lords voted to delay cuts to

:17:57.:17:59.

the benefit. But they're being accused

:18:00.:18:02.

of breaking parliamentary convention to "wreck" a financial programme

:18:03.:18:04.

passed by MPs. Poor figures from the building

:18:05.:18:17.

industry contributed to the economy growing more slowly than expected.

:18:18.:18:25.

GDP was up by 0.5% compared to 0.7% in the previous three months, after

:18:26.:18:28.

the biggest fall in construction output in three years.

:18:29.:18:29.

A 15-year-old boy from County Antrim who was arrested in connection with

:18:30.:18:33.

last week's cyber attack on the TalkTalk website has been released

:18:34.:18:36.

Millions of customers were warned their

:18:37.:18:38.

personal details, including bank details and email addresses, could

:18:39.:18:40.

The complex legal question of crime and joint enterprise is up

:18:41.:18:48.

Campaigners claim the joint enterprise principle has led to

:18:49.:18:51.

miscarriages of justice, and that hundreds of young men have been

:18:52.:18:54.

jailed for life for crimes in which they played only a minor role.

:18:55.:19:02.

Canadian investigators have warned that it may take months to determine

:19:03.:19:05.

what caused the fatal sinking of a whale watching boat close to

:19:06.:19:08.

Five Britons were killed when the ship capsized on Sunday - one

:19:09.:19:11.

Those are the main news stories. Time for the sport now.

:19:12.:19:24.

Good morning. Here are your sports headlines. It is a big night for

:19:25.:19:31.

Chelsea manager Jose Mourinho as they take on Stoke in the League

:19:32.:19:36.

Cup. There are reports he job may be in jeopardy if results don't

:19:37.:19:39.

improve. They are currently 150th in the table.

:19:40.:19:44.

-- 15th in the table. One of the candidates to become Fifa's

:19:45.:19:53.

President has denied allegations of serious human rights atrocities in

:19:54.:19:57.

his country. The England cricket coach says he doesn't believe Rashid

:19:58.:20:03.

for the shot that lost the test against Pakistan. Bayliss may make

:20:04.:20:09.

changes and says Butler's place will be discussed. That is all the sport

:20:10.:20:11.

for now. See you tomorrow. She was missing for nearly 13 years,

:20:12.:20:14.

and now there are question marks The woman, who is known as Geeta,

:20:15.:20:17.

and is deaf and mute, disappeared from her family home

:20:18.:20:21.

in the Punjab in India It's thought she wandered

:20:22.:20:24.

into Pakistan. Efforts to find her family began

:20:25.:20:26.

in August, after India accepted for the first time that Geeta was

:20:27.:20:29.

one of its citizens, and Indian television channels

:20:30.:20:32.

started airing her photographs. She initally identified a number

:20:33.:20:33.

of people in photographs as her family, but now says she

:20:34.:20:36.

doesn't recognise them. It's a case that's gripped India,

:20:37.:20:38.

and now the Government say DNA tests will be carried out to make sure

:20:39.:20:41.

she's reunited with her true family. Let us talk now to our correspondent

:20:42.:21:04.

in Delhi. Tell us what we know about Geeta. As you said this is her story

:21:05.:21:10.

is something that has gripped the whole nation, it has caught the

:21:11.:21:14.

imagination of people here, because her story resembles that of a

:21:15.:21:18.

Bollywood film that was released in India, and the plot of that film

:21:19.:21:22.

resolves round a Pakistani girl who is stranded in India and is later

:21:23.:21:28.

reunited with her family. Geeta 's story has the same kind of twist and

:21:29.:21:35.

turns if I can say, that appear in any Bollywood film in India. She

:21:36.:21:39.

arrived yesterday, in Delhi. As soon as she was presented to the family

:21:40.:21:45.

that she had previously recognised in photographs, she refused to

:21:46.:21:48.

recognise them, so now the Government is saying that DNA

:21:49.:21:54.

samples will be collected and sent for confirmation, whether or not

:21:55.:21:59.

Geeta belongs to that family. Mean while they are saying that Geeta

:22:00.:22:03.

will be kept in a care home and the state will continue to take care of

:22:04.:22:08.

her. Interestingly, four other families have claimed that Geeta is

:22:09.:22:10.

their relative. Right. OK. But hopefully the DNA

:22:11.:22:17.

test should prove the truth, you would have thought? Yes, exactly.

:22:18.:22:22.

That is what everybody is watching out for, in India. This story has,

:22:23.:22:28.

you know, gripped the imagination of not just the people in India but

:22:29.:22:33.

also in Pakistan. As soon as an announce was made yesterday now DNA

:22:34.:22:37.

test reports will be awaited, the news channels and even on social

:22:38.:22:41.

media, this news was taken up big time, and now everybody is just

:22:42.:22:46.

waiting to see what the DNA reports have to say and what the final

:22:47.:22:49.

destiny of this mystery girl would be.

:22:50.:22:55.

Thank you for talking to us. Thank you for your comments about tax

:22:56.:22:58.

credits, and about the House of Lords and the vote last night. We

:22:59.:23:03.

asked you if you thought they did the right thing or if it was wrong

:23:04.:23:07.

for an unelected chamber to overstep the mark. Babses sent us a poem.

:23:08.:23:15.

Georgy Porgy squeezed the poor to made them cry. When the Lords came

:23:16.:23:20.

out to play they kicked his ass and ran away.

:23:21.:23:26.

Tom on e-mail said the House of Lords is a pompous organisation that

:23:27.:23:31.

should have been established years ago. -- polished. Why bother having

:23:32.:23:37.

Parliamentary elections at all. Another one says it is about time

:23:38.:23:47.

the Lord did something good at all. Another one. The House of Lords

:23:48.:23:50.

acted on the side of the poorest in society. What they did was right and

:23:51.:23:51.

proper. Next or reporter meets the preppers

:23:52.:24:19.

the men who make sure they are fully equipped to survive in the event of

:24:20.:24:24.

a catastrophe. Roach spent most of his life in force. He is a prepper.

:24:25.:24:29.

Preppers are people who feel as if catastrophe is imminent and so

:24:30.:24:33.

prepare for a huge range of potential disasters. From nuclear

:24:34.:24:40.

war to financial collapse. Roach holds drills where he escapes to a

:24:41.:24:44.

location for such an event. I asked them to take me along. He told me to

:24:45.:24:49.

come to this door which is supposedly his house.

:24:50.:24:57.

The specific scenario we were doing was in the case of contagion or a

:24:58.:25:11.

pandemic. It is not the most inconspicuous

:25:12.:25:19.

tent. This isn't survival. What this is for me, is living simply.

:25:20.:25:27.

In the space of about 30 minutes we have set up camp. We have a fire, we

:25:28.:25:34.

have some food. He is cooking bangers and mash, life is good but

:25:35.:25:39.

we are still in a forest so it is not that good. If there was

:25:40.:25:47.

contagion and zombie like creatures tried to attack you what would

:25:48.:25:50.

happen? I would kill them. With the knife? With anything. With anything.

:25:51.:25:57.

With anything. With anything. With your hand, with a piece of wood.

:25:58.:26:03.

Would you try and bail out if there was people who came, or would you

:26:04.:26:11.

fight back? Ultimately, it is, so many people possibles. Welcome to my

:26:12.:26:18.

world. Do you think that deep down inside you kind of, because you

:26:19.:26:21.

spent so long preparing for it, you kind of hope something is going to

:26:22.:26:28.

happen? I don't want the world to end, I don't want bad things to

:26:29.:26:32.

happen to good people. I am not in control of the world. Are you

:26:33.:26:41.

paranoid? No. I suppose most people don't think about such consequences

:26:42.:26:47.

and such potential disasters. Some would say you are taking this too

:26:48.:26:51.

far? To a degree they are absolutely right. What you could do, is put

:26:52.:26:56.

every spare penny you have in the bank for a rainy day, that is

:26:57.:27:01.

prepping. You could pay off your mortgage ten years early, whatever

:27:02.:27:05.

you decide, you have to do to prepare for the future, that makes

:27:06.:27:15.

you a prepper. If you want to watch or share the

:27:16.:27:18.

full film you can find it on our programme page.

:27:19.:27:20.

Matthew Etherington was a Premier League footballer with

:27:21.:27:22.

West Ham and Stoke with a pretty good life - a salary that

:27:23.:27:25.

most 20-somethings could only dream of, and a loving wife and family.

:27:26.:27:28.

Yet behind the scenes he was hiding a devastating secret -

:27:29.:27:31.

At its worst, when he was playing for West Ham, it was so bad that he

:27:32.:27:36.

was gambling away tens of thousands of pounds every week.

:27:37.:27:38.

With ?1.5 million worth of debts, he finally sought

:27:39.:27:41.

the help that he needed to stop gambling for good, but he paid

:27:42.:27:44.

the price physically and emotionally as his marriage broke down.

:27:45.:27:46.

He retired from football last year and is here to tell his story

:27:47.:27:49.

How are you? Good. Why don't you tell the audience how the gambling

:27:50.:28:08.

began? It was when I signed for Tottenham, I moved from Peterborough

:28:09.:28:10.

to Tottenham when I was 18. We got put up in a hotel, me and Simon Day

:28:11.:28:16.

advice who moved with me at the time. Day-to-day life, it is good, I

:28:17.:28:23.

am privileged to do it, but you get in for training, 9.30. You train

:28:24.:28:28.

round 10.30. You are home, we were in the hotel round 1.00, so there is

:28:29.:28:32.

a lot of time to fill. We were earning very good money, very

:28:33.:28:36.

privileged to earn that money, as I said, but time and a lot of money on

:28:37.:28:43.

your hands. It is not a good recipe. So it was boredom and access to

:28:44.:28:48.

cash? It was for me. I made the choice I made first and foremost,

:28:49.:28:51.

there is no-one else to blame but myself. I looked at The Evening

:28:52.:28:55.

Standard and there was a racing card there for the dog, I thought I would

:28:56.:28:59.

go along, that is how it started. It was gradual. It got bad in the next

:29:00.:29:03.

three or four years but that is where it started. Right. How much

:29:04.:29:08.

were you earning? A few thousand pounds a week. At West Ham? Round

:29:09.:29:17.

20. ?20,000 a week? Yes. Stoke? Higher, 30, yeah. ?30,000 a week.

:29:18.:29:23.

Like I said, very privileged but stupid at the same time. I learned

:29:24.:29:28.

my lesson. Was it worse at West Ham or did it get worse at Stoke? West

:29:29.:29:35.

Ham was when it was very very bad, and then I stopped, my mother made

:29:36.:29:42.

me go to Sporting Chance funded by the PFA and Tonied Adams. I didn't

:29:43.:29:48.

want to go. I was scared to go to meetings. -- Tony. People were

:29:49.:29:56.

saying I was doing this and that. I became insular. You hide everything

:29:57.:30:02.

as a gambler, deep down. I thought if I went to Gamblers Anonymous

:30:03.:30:05.

meeting I would be judged, when it is the opposite. Everyone is the

:30:06.:30:10.

same. We all have the same problems, so initially I didn't go to the

:30:11.:30:13.

meetings. I relapsed within six month, that is when it got bad, to

:30:14.:30:20.

the end of my time of West Ham. So 30,00 pounds on an average week, how

:30:21.:30:25.

much would you be galling away? It would be gone within two weeks. 30

:30:26.:30:32.

grand or 60 grand? A month's wages. Gone in two weeks, on the horse,

:30:33.:30:34.

dogs? Cassano, horse, dogs. How were you paying the bills? I

:30:35.:30:48.

wasn't, which is ultimately why I stopped in 2009. I turned up at my

:30:49.:30:52.

house with my now wife, Stephanie, my mum and sister were there and

:30:53.:30:56.

they sat around the table and made me realise how much it was affecting

:30:57.:31:03.

me. So the new? Not to the extent, I told them and they were shocked, to

:31:04.:31:08.

say the least will stop but my mum took over my finances, my dad spoke

:31:09.:31:14.

to the people I owed money to and they said, concentrate on your

:31:15.:31:18.

football. That is what I did, I got play of the year that year at

:31:19.:31:22.

Stoke. Was that to do with the fact that you liberated yourself by

:31:23.:31:25.

telling your family, then helping you? Without a doubt, that is

:31:26.:31:30.

exactly what it was. I could concentrate on my football. I had a

:31:31.:31:37.

great time at Stoke for the next four years. Do you think any part,

:31:38.:31:42.

at the beginning, when maybe gambling was fun, before you became

:31:43.:31:47.

addicted, you were looking for the Bulls, trying to recreate winning a

:31:48.:31:51.

Premier League den, or is that way too simplistic? It is right to a

:31:52.:31:57.

certain extent. When I had the win in the initial years, when I was

:31:58.:32:05.

betting, there was that buzz there, and you try to recreate that. It got

:32:06.:32:09.

to a point where I was numb to it, I was betting for the sake of it, I

:32:10.:32:14.

did not want to admit defeat. As a sports Ukraine to win, you hate

:32:15.:32:17.

losing and it was part of the problem. If you were not paying the

:32:18.:32:24.

bills, were bailiffs knocking at the door? Yes, another horrible trade as

:32:25.:32:28.

a gambler is you become a compulsive liar as well. You have every story

:32:29.:32:36.

under the sun to tell, to get yourself out of situations. I will

:32:37.:32:39.

have the money for you next month, I have money coming in, I campaign

:32:40.:32:43.

next month, so they will give you a bit more time, then you ignore their

:32:44.:32:49.

calls. My financial situation was as bad as it gets, simple as that. I

:32:50.:32:54.

think at one point there were bookies turning up at West Ham's

:32:55.:32:58.

training ground looking for you because you owed them money? Yes, I

:32:59.:33:03.

would go to the doctor that night, Walthamstow, Romford, they knew who

:33:04.:33:08.

I was, I was earning money at the time, so I would bet on credit and

:33:09.:33:12.

say I would give them a check at the end of the night and they were fine

:33:13.:33:15.

with it. If I was losing, I would leave before the last race and they

:33:16.:33:19.

could not get their money, and they would turn up at the training ground

:33:20.:33:23.

the next day. Obviously we had security at the front of the

:33:24.:33:27.

training ground but I would have to go and face them and tell them I

:33:28.:33:31.

would have it for them next week or the week after. I was basically

:33:32.:33:35.

trying to get myself out of situations all the time, and that is

:33:36.:33:38.

what happens as a compulsive gambler. It was a very stressful

:33:39.:33:44.

time, but one I am glad I am out of now. I will ask more about that in a

:33:45.:33:50.

second. If you have spent all of your wages and no one is giving you

:33:51.:33:54.

credit, do you find yourself looking around for loose change? Yes, the

:33:55.:34:02.

prime example, the day before I stopped, my wife now, Stephanie, we

:34:03.:34:06.

were not married at the time but I said I was going to the shop, she

:34:07.:34:10.

knew full well I was going to the bookmakers. I had exhausted all

:34:11.:34:14.

means of any cash to have a better so I looked at the ashtray in my

:34:15.:34:18.

car, there was some loose change there, I had ?5 in my pocket, did

:34:19.:34:23.

not have enough petrol to get home but I would rather use the money to

:34:24.:34:27.

go into the bookmakers and have a bet then fill my car with petrol. My

:34:28.:34:32.

priorities were all wrong and luckily that day when I got home my

:34:33.:34:38.

family were there. You said earlier that it became public that there was

:34:39.:34:42.

a photograph of you coming out of a bookie, so fans would know and fans

:34:43.:34:46.

from opposing teams would know, and presumably they let you know that a

:34:47.:34:51.

new? Oh, yes, probably because I am talking about it so openly, there

:34:52.:34:56.

was a stigma attached to myself with regards the gambling but I am not

:34:57.:34:59.

shy to talk about it, I want to help other people. But there are a large

:35:00.:35:04.

percentage of people ignorant towards it, they don't see it as an

:35:05.:35:08.

illness, they see it as someone being silly, why can't you just

:35:09.:35:12.

stop? I have been haunted lots of times on the football pitch, in

:35:13.:35:16.

restaurants, bars, but it is what it is, it doesn't affect me any more. I

:35:17.:35:21.

don't want people to feel sorry for me in any way, shape or form, it is

:35:22.:35:25.

what it is. Let's talk about addiction, whether gambling,

:35:26.:35:28.

alcohol, drugs, there are people who think you can just stop, you can

:35:29.:35:33.

wake up in the morning and make that choice. Explain to them why it is an

:35:34.:35:38.

illness? It takes open your life. It took over my life, it was all I

:35:39.:35:43.

thought about when I woke up, before I went to sleep, friendships were

:35:44.:35:48.

ruined, friendships with loved ones were ruined. Luckily I have

:35:49.:35:53.

rekindled most of them now. But it is an illness, without a shadow of a

:35:54.:35:57.

doubt, and I was very, very ill with it. Again, like I said, I made my

:35:58.:36:02.

own choices, no one forced me to do what I did, but it was definitely a

:36:03.:36:06.

learning curve and definitely an illness and people who think

:36:07.:36:10.

otherwise are quite ignorant. You told us a little bit about gamblers

:36:11.:36:14.

anonymous, you thought you would be judged but it is not like that. Can

:36:15.:36:17.

you give us an insight into those meetings? Did you say, I am

:36:18.:36:22.

Matthew... I am a compulsive gambler, I have not had a bet since

:36:23.:36:28.

my last meeting, that is what you say when you address the room. You

:36:29.:36:34.

talk about your everyday life, your struggles, if there are any gambling

:36:35.:36:38.

related issues, issues at home, with your friends, etc. It is nice, you

:36:39.:36:44.

walk out of the room and you feel liberated, it is a weight off my

:36:45.:36:48.

shoulders, you feel like your head is clear. It works, simple as that.

:36:49.:36:55.

Can you say it works? My understanding from addiction is

:36:56.:36:59.

that, actually, you are never cured, you have to take each day at

:37:00.:37:06.

a time? Is that right? Oh, yes, what I meant is that going to the

:37:07.:37:10.

meetings helps. It is down to you to self maintained, things like that,

:37:11.:37:14.

it is a constant battle they in, day out, that I know what I have got to

:37:15.:37:18.

lose, I understand the addiction a lot more, thankfully, I understand

:37:19.:37:22.

signs when I could be getting back into old habits. What are those

:37:23.:37:27.

triggers that you need to look out for? Time on my hands. But you have

:37:28.:37:34.

retired! These last six to nine months have not been easy, I will be

:37:35.:37:38.

the first to admit that, but I have an amazing wife, a 14-month-old

:37:39.:37:44.

daughter who I have seen grown-up, which I would not have done if I was

:37:45.:37:48.

playing football, so they have taken plenty of my time. But there are

:37:49.:37:52.

signs, you see yourself in situations from time to time. It is

:37:53.:37:58.

a day-to-day battle, mentally those demons are in your head, I will not

:37:59.:38:02.

lie, but I know I have got a lot to lose and I understand the illness a

:38:03.:38:07.

lot more. A couple of messages, this is from, I did know, somebody on

:38:08.:38:10.

Twitter, great honesty and awareness raising. One tweet says, listening

:38:11.:38:18.

to Matthew Etherington on Victoria Derbyshire, what a player he was and

:38:19.:38:22.

good to hear he is back on track. When you wake up in the morning, is

:38:23.:38:25.

it the first thing you think about, or not now? Not any more, it is

:38:26.:38:33.

usually my daughter crying! It was when I was in the height of the

:38:34.:38:38.

addiction. Now, it is not in my mind as much. Don't get me wrong, it is

:38:39.:38:42.

in my mind from time to time but nowhere near as much, it does not

:38:43.:38:46.

the whole of my day or the thoughts of my day, and there is more to life

:38:47.:38:50.

now, and I lead a normal life which I never thought I would be able to

:38:51.:38:55.

lead. It is a normal, mundane in many respects. Normal is good! How

:38:56.:39:00.

big a problem is gambling within top-class football? It is hard to

:39:01.:39:07.

say, gambling is an illness. You can see in an alcoholic, a drug addict,

:39:08.:39:12.

physically in their appearance they may have problems. With gambling,

:39:13.:39:17.

you hide things deep deep down. And there is the denial aspect? There is

:39:18.:39:22.

the denial, admitting defeat. I have had agents ring me on behalf of

:39:23.:39:26.

players, probably a dozen now, Spain, can you speak to the player,

:39:27.:39:31.

he is in a lot of trouble, his wife is thinking about leaving, he is in

:39:32.:39:35.

financial trouble. I have said, yes, obviously I will not be able to stop

:39:36.:39:39.

him, she has to want to do it himself but if he wants to talk, I

:39:40.:39:44.

will be there. Not one player has called me. What does that tell you?

:39:45.:39:49.

They are not ready to stop, first and foremost it has to come from

:39:50.:39:53.

yourself. They are not ready to stop at this moment in time. Luckily

:39:54.:39:58.

there came a time when I did stop. But with the cash that footballers

:39:59.:40:01.

are in, the time on their hands, it is a recipe for disaster, I

:40:02.:40:07.

suppose. Eric tweets to say, I have been in this situation, too, and it

:40:08.:40:12.

is horrible. I lost ?2000 in two months and I am trying to get

:40:13.:40:15.

better. You would recommend gamblers anonymous? Definitely, speaking to

:40:16.:40:21.

people who can relate to him, like-minded people, you will not get

:40:22.:40:25.

judged in that room in any way, shape or form. People give good

:40:26.:40:28.

advice and it is the only place to go if you want to stop. Do you think

:40:29.:40:33.

sport, football itself, takes the risk of being addicted to gambling

:40:34.:40:38.

from its members, its players, seriously enough? I'm not sure, to

:40:39.:40:43.

be honest. It is like all walks of life, it is already tip. I lost

:40:44.:40:50.

millions of pounds, but as an addicted gambler you spend on

:40:51.:40:54.

gambling what you earn. I think people in football have addiction

:40:55.:40:58.

problems but I think in all walks of life people have addiction problems.

:40:59.:41:02.

I don't think it is rife in football in any way but there are issues with

:41:03.:41:06.

it. Thank you very much for being so candid, we really appreciate you

:41:07.:41:10.

coming on the programme. Next, the family of Mark Duggan,

:41:11.:41:13.

whose shooting by police in Tottenham, sparked riots in Britain

:41:14.:41:18.

in 2011 have won the right to appeal against an inquest decision that he

:41:19.:41:23.

was lawfully killed. Our correspondent is that the Court of

:41:24.:41:26.

Appeal. This is just the first step in the process, I think?

:41:27.:41:31.

That's right, they are in the foothills of this whole process. The

:41:32.:41:35.

inquest jury, which sat at this court last year, came in with a

:41:36.:41:40.

verdict in January 2014 that Mark Duggan had been lawfully killed but

:41:41.:41:43.

they said they did not believe that he had a gun in his hand when he was

:41:44.:41:49.

shot. The police officer who fired the fatal shot to kill Mark Duggan

:41:50.:42:04.

was known only as Tell Mama Tell -- V53. He said he believed Mark Duggan

:42:05.:42:13.

had thrown the gun before he was killed, a weapon was found 20 feet

:42:14.:42:16.

from the shooting. Mark Duggan's family and the lawyers have always

:42:17.:42:22.

said the findings were contradictory, how could the

:42:23.:42:24.

jewellery said he was lawfully killed yet at the same time said

:42:25.:42:28.

they did not believe he had the gun in his hand when he was shot? This

:42:29.:42:32.

will be thrashed out at the Court of Appeal at a gate in the future.

:42:33.:42:37.

Let's bring you a little bit more on the investigation we mentioned

:42:38.:42:40.

earlier in the States after that video emerged apparently showing a

:42:41.:42:44.

police officer, not apparently, you can see it yourself, shoving a

:42:45.:42:48.

police officer throwing a female people across a classroom. This

:42:49.:42:52.

footage was reportedly taken by a pupil in the class at Spring Valley

:42:53.:42:56.

high school in Columbia, South Carolina. It is thought the officer

:42:57.:43:00.

was called after the particular student refused to leave the class.

:43:01.:43:04.

It looks like hubris trains her around the neck before quickly

:43:05.:43:07.

pulling her desk and her backwards towards the floor. Soon after he

:43:08.:43:12.

appears to throw her if you meet is across the classroom. Civil

:43:13.:43:14.

liberties groups have said the actions were not justified. The

:43:15.:43:18.

Sheriff's spokesperson, Curtis Wilson, says they are reviewing the

:43:19.:43:22.

evidence. This student was as to leave the

:43:23.:43:26.

class several times, the principle is there as well, and the officer

:43:27.:43:33.

was called to have the student removed from the location. The

:43:34.:43:35.

student refused and the officer acted as you see on the video. What

:43:36.:43:40.

we saw was just a kid bit of what the video showed. The incident that

:43:41.:43:45.

took place that led up to it and what happened afterwards, all of

:43:46.:43:51.

that will take part in what the Sheriff decides.

:43:52.:43:53.

Any update you will hear on BBC News.

:43:54.:43:56.

Thank you for joining us, we are back tomorrow at 9:15am. Have a good

:43:57.:43:57.

day.

:43:58.:44:02.

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