13/11/2015 Victoria Derbyshire

I'm Joanna Gosling, welcome to the programme.

US forces have carried out an air strike in Syria targeting

the British self-styled Islamic State militant known as Jihadi John,

who appeared in videos showing western hostages being beheaded.

We'll look at the significance of his death - if it's confirmed.

Plus, it looks like Russia will admit to some of

the doping allegations made against their athletes, to try and avoid

We'll get reaction from leading athletes, fans and coaches.

And should GPs be banned from prescribing homeopathy treatments?

Homoeopathy is a great example of a medicine that is not known to work.

In fact, it is known not to work. When GPs incorporate homoeopathic

medicines they get better results. We'll try and look at the evidence

of just how effective homeopathy is. We're on BBC Two and the BBC News

Channel until 11 this morning. Throughout the morning we'll keep

you across the latest breaking After ten this morning,

the couple who killed Becky Watts in a sexually-motivated kidnap plot

will be sentenced. We'll bring you all the details

as it happens. Plus, if you've experienced

stillbirth, do get in touch with us. The government's announcing

a programme to try and reduce the As always,

your contributions to this programme Texts will be charged

at the standard network rate. Don't forget, you can watch

the programme online wherever you are, via the BBC news app or

our website bbc.co.uk/Victoria. And you can also subscribe to all

our features on the news app, by going to add topics and

searching 'Victoria Derbyshire'". US forces say they believe they

killed the self-styled Islamic State medicine -- militant known as

jihadis John. Mohammed Emwazi appeared in many of the beheading

videos by the group known as ices and became notorious for wearing a

black robe and a balaclava. Well, the US Pentagon says it has

targeted him in a drone strike And, according to

a senior military source, there is But who was Jihadi John

and how did he end up as a jihadi? If there were changes, they happened

later. The school had no knowledge that was what was happening, if it

was happening. One of Emwazi's victims was British

aid worker David Haines, beheaded last year after being held hostage.

This is what his widow told the BBC about him -- Emwazi earlier this

year. I hope we will be caught alive. I

think the only moral satisfaction for families have that he murdered.

The last thing I would want for him is an honourable death.

We are expecting a statement from David Cameron later today. We can

speak to Charlie Wynter, a security analyst. If he has been killed, how

much of a coup would that be for America and Britain? It would be

very important. Islamic State really has championed Mohamed Emwazi as its

figurehead in its brutal and notorious propaganda videos. This

man is a source of the Brits and pride for many foreign and local

factors of Islamic State. -- who Brits. If he has been killed it

would be a symbolic blow. I don't think it would change much on the

ground. I think the Islamic State leadership and operational structure

is very opaque. What seems to be the case is that Emwazi was important as

a figurehead but not so important operationally. Why would he have

been picked out as a figurehead? Purely because of the fact that he

was someone from London, he had a British accident, he was ideological

the committed. Islamic State know what they are doing, they'd know

what will cause the most outrage. He was someone who was suitable for the

job. There was also to speculation about what had happened to him?

Since January the 31st, when he appeared in a video in which the

Japanese aid worker, Kenji Goto was killed. That was last time we saw

him. A lot of months have gone past without him appearing. There has

been a lot of speculation as to whether he had left the country,

left State even. If any strike did happen, he has been here all the

time keeping a low profile. What does it reveal about what is going

on behind the scenes if this strike has got him in such a precise way?

That is the other thing which is really important about this strike.

It really does point to a high and sophisticated level of intelligence

gathering for the coalition, specifically the United States. That

will have anybody who is anybody within Islamic State worrying. It

shows they are listening to the right people, they know how to get

to the right people. If they can do that, who is to say they will not

get someone more senior, summary of operational rather than symbolic

value? Is intelligence improving? I think so, yes. For a long time there

has been a dialogue in the intelligence community about how

difficult Islamic State is to deal with. It is important to get human

intelligence on the ground. That was something that was lacking. Now with

this kind of thing, and the killing of June eight Husein, which was less

high profile, still important, if these deaths do point to

sophisticated intelligence, that is important in a conflict like this.

Would you expect IS to respond? Perhaps. We can only talking

hypotheticals. I am thinking in terms of confirming or denying if he

is such a significant figure? There is a chance it could happen. Given

the weight Islamic State operates I think it will try to manage the way

this comes out to the press, manage the way their reaction is revealed.

I think they really need to make sure that they do not look like they

have had a loss. If they do make a statement they will emphasise the

fact he is one of their heroes, someone looming -- attained

martyrdom in an air strike. This is a big loss for Islamic State if it

is true and big losses are important in terms of the overall operation.

Add any other high profile figures the US are targeting? Almost every

month we hear about air strikes. We do know the coalition is trying to

pick of the higher-level targets in Islamic State. The operational

leadership structure of IS is very opaque. It is difficult to know who

to target. But clearly the US is trying to do that. It is doing so

occasionally. They need more tactical victories like this.

Thank you very much. Should GPs be banned from

prescribing homoeopathic medicines? This is the week in which,

at long last, the Prime Minister set out the deal he wanted from Europe

ahead of that EU referendum. Last night the President

of the European Council, Donald Tusk, said it would be "

very difficult" to reach agreement. And many other EU countries have

responded with near exasperation. To many of them it looks like just

another chapter in what some now So why do we have such a troubled

relationship with Europe? Here's our political guru,

Norman Smith # And I nearly lost

my mind # But,

the one thing that never seems to go He wanted

the European Parliament to be the He wanted the commission to be the

executive and he wanted the council For the last 30 years,

Europe has been the great, explosive The political argument

in Britain is over. Every democrat will accept

the result, you and all. But, why is it we are still

banging on about Europe? I guess part of it is that no

politician wants to be seen as a Now it is

the Tories who are unhappy, but it used to be Labour

wanted to get out of Europe. I guess rows over Europe are

like a well-cut suit, I think we just know that it is

the way you are and the way you You want to have your word

on the matter. Yeah, you want Britain to be

able to speak for itself. Elise Dherbomez is a French

journalist living in London. How do you think people

in the rest of Europe view us? I actually wrote an article

about that once, I had to ask French people what do

you think of the British. They told me, oh, really friendly,

they are really friendly. And a bit weird,

sometimes you do stuff that we don't always understand

and we don't always understand How do people feel

about our attitude to Europe? We believe that you only want

the benefit of it. That David Cameron is playing

a dangerous game. Of course, it is easy to blame

our press and they do like to talk about bent bananas and barmy

Brussels bureaucrats, but it's more We have a love-hate

relationship with Europe. The wine, the food, the excellent

transport systems, the clogs and But, here's the thing,

we love their wine, we love their I kind of think that is because of

our history and 1066 and all that. If we think about the classic story

of British history it is about an island people resisting

invasion from the continent, beating It is about the Battle of Britain

and the Second World War. Even today, there is a tendency to

see Europe as somewhere that does things to Britain, that regulates

our bananas, restricts our laws. We don't necessarily think of

ourselves as being part of Europe. What has been the impact of our loss

of empire on the way we view Europe? When Britain created

its empire it was, in a sense, outgrowing the continent of Europe,

stepping out of Europe and into Becoming a European power marks

a shrinking of its status. A shrinking of its place in the

world, it is receding into a sort I've been reporting

politics probably too long. Norman Smith, BBC News at

Labour Party headquarters. Whatever the result of Mr Cameron's

referendum, I'll still be reporting about Euro rows

and we will all still be banging Thanks for joining us today,

still to come. It looks

like Russia will admit to some of the doping allegations made against

their athletes, to try and avoid We'll get reaction from leading

athletes, fans and coaches. Plus, do you need a degree to be

a good copper? There's a suggestion this morning

that police recruits should have US forces carry out

a drone strike on a vehicle carrying the British Islamic State militant

known as "Jihadi John". A senior military source has told

the BBC there is a "high degree of certainty" that

Mohammed Emwazi has been killed. Downing Street says the UK has been

working hand in glove with the Americans to track down hostage

murderers. The chancellor, George Osborne,

has announced the sale of 13 billion pounds worth

of former Northern Rock mortgages, The government has sold about 85% of

its assets. The couple who killed Becky Watts

will be sentenced today at Earlier this week a jury took less

than four hours to find 28-year old Nathan Matthews guilty of his step

sister's murder and 21-year old The teenager was strangled

to death in February. Myanmar's opposition,

led by Aung San Suu Kyi, has won a historic victory in the first

free election in 25 years. It's won enough seats

in parliament to form a government and choose the next President,

after Sunday's landmark vote. The first storm to be named in

the UK has been causing disruption Abigail has seen gusts of more than

80 miles per hour in the Orkney and Western Isles and hundreds were

left without power overnight. Many schools are closed. Dermot

O'Leary will step into Sir Terry Wogan's shoes. He is missing the

fundraiser for the first time because of back problems.

Let's catch up with all the sport now and join Hugh and we'll find out

today what sanctions will be imposed on Russian athletics.

Tell us more. Just after 10am, more on the athletics story concerning

Russia and we will speak about it in more detail. They will find out if

they will be banned from international competition and they

will hope they will not be bound by claiming irregularities around their

drug testing system. Blaming them on their old leadership. It will be a

tense day for everyone concerned. Plenty of friendly action in

football. England have a tough match away in Spain. Northern Ireland face

Latvia and Wales will be favourites against an out of sorts Netherlands

side. But the focus will be on Zenitsa

for the Republic of Ireland's Euro 2016 play-off first leg

against Bosnia-Herzegovina. Ireland will look to join Wales,

England, and Northern Ireland at next summer's tournament in France

but it won't be easy, captain Robbie Keane has spoken about the intense

and hostile they should receive. Personally he says he'll enjoy

the electric atmosphere and the We'll be speaking to 5live

commentator Conor McNamara who'll be at the game tonight

to preview what's to come. That and more coming up just

after 10am. It looks like Russia's athletics

federation is planning to admit to some of the charges made against it

by the World Anti-Doping Agency commission in order to avoid a ban

from competitions like the Olympics. An independent report earlier this

week accused Russia The International Association

of Athletics Federations, know as the IAAF, will make

a final decision later today. Here's a quick reminder

about how we got here. It has the effect,

unlike other forms of corruption, of actually affecting

the results, on the field of play. Athletes both in Russia and

abroad are suffering, as a result. Shocked at the level and depth

and the audacity, really, that people thought they could get

away with this and that they had got The damage that has been

done to athletics by this. I really do think that

action has to be taken. For 2016, our recommendation is that

the Russian Federation be suspended. To create a sport that is

responsive, responsible, accountable, transparent and one

that is predominantly and only in We are just hearing that Russia says

it is ready to carry out an investigation into the allegations.

With independent organisations. The sports minister was quoted by the

Interfax news agency. He is also quoted as calling the allegations

absurd, saying the international Russian Olympics committees will

make a joint statement on the doping scandal later.

So how should the IAAF punish Russia?

What else needs to happen to clean up the athletics image and what does

We can speak now to Eilish McColgan, a Team GB Olympic steeplechaser

Joining us from Sweden is Professor Arne Ljungvist,

a former Vice Chairman of the World Anti-Doping Agency.

Dave Collins, a sports psychologist and former Director of UK Athletics,

Peter Eriksson is former performance director of UK Athletics

and joins us from Canada, where he's now head coach

Joining us here in the studio are Diane Modahl,

who won 800 metres Commonwealth gold, competed in four Olympics and

was banned, and then cleared, of being a drugs cheat back in 1994.

And Jody and Bayo Furlong, two brothers who run a blog

Professor, first, you warned, back in 2008 about concerns of what was

happening in Russia, what happened then? Yes, I did.

Just before the Beijing games they were identified by IAAF as having a

problem in the Russian athletics gains. Just before the Beijing

games, the IAAF found that a number of athletes had actually manipulated

there you are in -- Querin. We held a press conference. Where I

was asked about the matter. This is a fact that has been

recorded. Everyone knows it. Did you believe, back then... It was not the

first time. Did you believe that it was the state-sponsored doping that

was being discussed? If you did, was it not properly looked into?

No, I didn't say that, I didn't have any opinion on that matter, I only

commented on a sign of something of an organised doping going on in that

particular group of people. Where and who organised it, I doubt

know. But, it seemed to me, as an organised affair. Because it covered

so many athletes and they never came to Beijing, there were six or seven.

It is not terribly different from the story we have seen in recent

days. By hearing that, people will think why on earth did it take so

long for everyone to get a grip on it? 2015, seven years later.

Possibly. When I spoke to a colleague a few days ago, he did not

seem to be aware all remember the story that happened in 2008. But,

it's did and this is a fact. How do you explain it? Did people just not

have the appetite? The will, were they looking the other way? I don't

know, honestly. It was for the Russians to look into and I hope

they did. But now a news story comes up. This is not the first time. I

doubt know in what way it was organised and by whom, no idea. This

was apparently never looked into by the Russians, which is of course

those who have the first obligation to look into it. Eilish, hearing

that, how do you feel about the fact that someone so senior was first

flagging this up in 2008 and in 2012, you feel about the fact that

someone so senior was first flagging this up in 2008 and in 2012 EU who

won your event and were subsequently found guilty of doping? It is

disappointing but not particularly surprising. A lot of the athletes

competing now had their suspicions and have had suspicions for a long

time. It is positive... Not positive that it is coming out, but the more

that we can, sort of, get these athletes and get them out of the

sport, the better. It is just a shame that it has taken seven years

to get to this stage. But, as I say, this is a really positive thing,

moving forward. You are trying for Rio 2016, how do you feel about

competing against Russian athletes there? It is strange. If you had

asked me yesterday. I would think, actually, it's unfair to ban the

whole country. Obviously, I would assume that not everyone is a doping

athlete and there will be some clean athletes. But after being subjected

to a random drugs test last might at 11pm and having to your innate in a

cup in front of a random stranger, it has changed my opinion. --

urinate. If it was standard across every nation I would not have a

problem. A clean athlete, it is unfair, you are doing everything

right and you're following the protocol, to hear that 1400 samples

are getting tossed aside, it is a bit frustrating. I am in two minds

of how I feel about competing against Russia next year. The only

thing I can do is focus on myself. Do the best that I can possibly do.

Professor Dave Collins, former director of UK athletics, you have

sympathy for Eilish, do you think the Russian athletes should be at

Rio next year or not? Eilish's position is entirely understandable.

The performance director 2005-2008, I know that the athletes I had the

pleasure of leading were also suffering from these concerns, some

of them. The problem is that it is not just Russia. It is a lot of

other countries. It is not just athletics, it is a lot of other

sports. When you ask the very good question, if we knew about this, why

didn't we do anything, there has to be a lot of strong political will.

Maybe legal problems notwithstanding, maybe we need to

get to a situation where wider cannot only test and detect these

things but they can also prosecute them, -- Wada instead of handing

them over to a national federation. And say, sweet at your own stables.

Diane, you were banned and then cleared, does that make it even more

angry when you hear that athletes who are doping have been getting

away with it like this? I think we have to move away from this shock

and horror approach. We have always had our suspicions,

we've always known that times that athletes run have been a little bit

dubious. What this gives us, now, is an opportunity to look at how do we

change that? Is its devastating for athletics and sport generally?

Absolutely. Is it surprising? Of course it isn't surprising. But the

level at which it was happening? Not particularly. In my experience, when

your back is against the wall and you're being accused of something

that you know isn't true, depending on whatever side you are on, you

will dig your heels in. That conversation you have been having

with Arne doesn't surprise me either. It is what we were saying

almost 20 years ago. Doping isn't about an individual athlete, it is

not about a coach, it is not about individuals. It is actually starting

at the top. This gives us an opportunity to follow the evidence.

That is key. Follow the evidence to see if it is happening at a

strategic level. That's where the sanctions have got to hit and hit

hard. You are super fans in the studio, you are not surprised? As

fans, things have changed a lot in the last ten years through

technology. We know more now than we used to. We would sit at home

shouting at the TV before, but now you have Twitter and blogs and

various ways that people can talk. We know what goes on. If a report

comes out, we can read it. You used to get excerpts in the newspaper. I

have friends who have read the 500 page report from Mo Farah's coach.

They corrected journalists online. We know a lot more than we used to.

We pick up on little things that aren't necessarily in the media. We

are a platform to voice our opinions about things. I'm not surprised by

Russia in slightest. The only thing that surprises me is it has, cried.

I could have told you about it ten years ago. Warning about it is not

good enough. You have to do something. We know more about the

sport than any so-called experts, coaches, because we live and breathe

it, we watch at night and day. I could name countless athletes we

know are on drugs. You suspect? It is not suspicion. When you are in a

position of authority you have to prove stuff. We are not in that

position. Have the authority is not handled this correctly until now?

How do they earn the trust of people like the fans in the studio and

everybody else who is a fan and is competing in it, to? The authorities

have handled it in accordance with the limitations of the rules in

place. But they have the power to do something, don't they? Yes, but

there are rules that should be followed when you exercise that

power. They do not even implement the rules they have got. The rules

are there. The rules are astringent. But are the rules being followed?

There is no real will from those in authority, from those who could

carry out and demonstrate those responsible sanctions and actions

that never happened in the past. It is not really good enough or strong

enough to save the rules are there and we need to follow them. Action

needs to take place. You get the impression that people in authority

do not want to publicise that there is a problem. It is best to cover it

up and sweep it under the carpet, so the sport does not get damaged. The

sport needs to get damaged in order for it to get better. How do you see

this, Peter Collins? I think a lot of things have gone wrong. The lack

of will to change is a problem. We can say that incompetence is a

problem on all levels and the source of the symptoms as well. Economics

is another issue that is part of this problem. And apathy as well.

Different things play into the whole scenario. That is the sad part of

it. We can ban Russia as much as we want, but first and foremost we have

to look at all of the victims that were robbed of medals in the

previous games, and that is important to set right. Eilish

McColgan, final thought from you. Can this be put right going forward?

Yes, I think it can. I love the sport and I would hope that it is

going to move forward. We are the ones competing in it, living and

breathing it each day. The only unfortunate thing is that the fans

are disappointed as well. They want to see a clean sport and they want

to know that what they are watching is a level playing field. That is

what I want. I want to know that we are all equal and we are on a fair

playing field. It is important to say that we are all having a go at

athletics today. But athletics is one of the sports that does at least

try. The reason athletics gets a bad rap is because they try to catch

people and do catch people. Football, rugby, any other sport, if

they got tested as much as catholic -- athletics does, they would be

much worse. Athletics is at least trying. Thank

you very much. Peter says if the Russians get away with this, nobody

will trust another governing body again. Denial led to this in the

first place. And other text. Russian athletes should be banned from

international competition for a minimum of ten years. It is obvious

this has been going on for years, cheating other athlete out of

medals. Lawrence has said it would be a shame and disgrace if Russia is

allowed to take part in the Olympic Games, a slap in the face to those

who did not take drugs. Start by dumping Russia for at least ten

years. Another here says Russia should be banned from Rio. If not,

it is a farce. And Frank has treated to say that Russia are ready to

investigate themselves. A token slap on the wrist will follow. Keep your

thoughts coming in. The Government is putting more money

into training and equipment to prevent stillbirths, but is it

enough? Now, it's one

of the most controversial therapies offered by the NHS and now

ministers are considering whether to ban from homeopathy from the list

of treatments GPs can prescribe. The NHS spends about ?4 million

on homeopathy at the moment but what's the evidence

about whether or not it works? James Gallagher is

our health correspondent. We are also joined by Simon Singh

and Doctor Peter Fisher. James, talk us through, first of all, what is

homoeopathy? The idea is that like treats like. We have got an example

on the table. I bought this in a high street pharmacist. It is

arnica. It is a plant which, if you were to ingested, would damage the

body. This will explain some of the differences between a herbal and

homoeopathic remedy. The plant is used in some herbal remedies. Here

it goes through special treatment to make it homoeopathic. You take one

part of arnica and you add to it 99 parts of water or alcohol. You die

looted. Again and again and again and again. The more you die looted,

the more powerful the effect. The more die looted it is, the stronger

the effect. -- deluded. The argument is that the end product

is nothing but a sugar pill. That it flies in the face of conventional

science. What is the evidence? There have been countless studies looking

at this. There are criticisms of many. MPs have looked at this.

Earlier this year the Australian government looked at this and

reached the overall conclusion that there is no good evidence that says

that homoeopathy works. One of the big confusing factors is the placebo

effect. If I did give you sugar pills for something, you would

probably see some kind of benefit. We see this around all kinds of

things. If you have painkillers, we know that people respond better to a

brand of painkillers than in non-brand of painkillers. It is down

to placebo effect. The big question around homoeopathic is whether it

does have a placebo effect. The NHS spends a significant amount of money

on it every year but in the great scheme of things it is a drop in the

ocean. Why are they looking at it now? Well, it is. You have

homoeopathic hospitals as well. That is where a lot of the money is

going. If you look at GP prescriptions, it is only about

?110,000 per year that is spent on prescribing it out of a GP surgery.

There are some drugs that cost ?90,000 for one patient a year. When

you start comparing the finances, you can argue that this is a drop in

the ocean. However, this is a lot more about ideology of what the NHS

should be paying for and whether it is based on evidence. That is what

George Freeman, the life sciences minister, is saying. These are tight

times, we need to look at what the NHS is spending money on. Make sure

it's spending money on things that prove effective. Simon Singh, you

think homoeopathy should not be on the NHS. Why not? Your face was a

treat when James explained that the more you deluded, the more powerful

it becomes. It is untrue. It is not a principle of homoeopathy. He is

not saying it gets stronger. That is the first I have heard. The bottom

line is it does not work. The best available evidence, if you talk to

the Chief Medical Officer, if you talk to academics, they will say

homoeopathy does not work. For me it is simply a case of, with limited

resources, should the NHS be wasting money on drugs that do not work when

they could be spending that money on drugs, therapies, Massaat is,

operations, nurses, which do really work? James made a good point about

the placebo effect. Placebo effects, with every treatment. I

could give you something that helps with your hay fever and has a

placebo effect on top, or I could short-change you and give you a

sugar pill that only has a placebo effect. It is sensible to only spend

money on treatment that works. Homoeopathy needs to be on the

blacklist. Doctor Peter Fisher, you prescribe homoeopathy. Wide? Because

it works. What happens if you add homoeopathy into general practice?

That is the question on the debate. It is very clear. There have been a

number of studies totalling around 10,000 patients, mostly done in

France and Germany, where a large number of GPs use homoeopathy, and

what you find is consistently, unanimously, all of these studies

have shown that GPs to integrate homoeopathy into their practice get

better results either just in terms of the patient getting better

quicker, her the patient uses less drugs. For instance, # as many

sleeping tablets. Dame Sally Davies has spoken about homoeopathy and has

said she is perpetually surprised it is prescribed on the NHS. She says

people who prescribed homoeopathy are peddlers. I think that is

outrageous. We were colleagues many years ago Central Middlesex

Hospital. I do not think that is correct at all. The most recent

review of clinical trials of homoeopathy came to a clear positive

conclusion. It is not a placebo. The second really important issue here

is that lots of people spend money on homoeopathy privately. Why?

Because the NHS funds it. If the NHS funds it, they assume it must be

effective. There are parents who spend money on homoeopathy for their

children. There are homoeopathic to go to West Africa to try to treat a

bowler. -- Ebola. What the NHS does is the tip of the iceberg. It gives

credibility to a whole industry, which I know Professor Fisher

condemns as well. That is the other issue we need to sort out. Looking

at papers that have been published. One statistic quoted by the British

homoeopathic association is that until the end of 2014, 104 papers

were published on 61 different medical conditions under strict

controls. 41% reported, on balance, there was positive evidence. 5%,

negative. 54% were not conclusive. It does seem to get the balance in

the positive camp? That is the Christine Keeler effect. They would

say that, wouldn't they? It is about the quality of studies. Two studies

have independent controls? Are they randomised? Do they have large group

samples? Doctors and research is look at a pool of data. The

Australian government did it earlier this year. You apply criteria. You

say, these are good studies, these are misleading studies. When you

apply those criteria, there is nothing there for homoeopathy. That

issue was addressed by a study at the University of Glasgow. They

prioritised them. The conclusions remain the same for the highest

quality as the not so highest quality. If homoeopathy is

effective, you and they and everybody else would win a Nobel

Prize and I would be the first one applauding you but I can guarantee

you it does not work. Charles has tweeted to say homoeopathy works on

animals. The placebo argument is a nonstarter. Science is a

tremendously open-minded enterprise. It will look at the weirdest ideas

like black holes and dark matter. To me that is unbelievable. But science

is open-minded. Sainz consults research studies. -- science

conducts research studies. What is research studies. -- science

happening is that owners of pets will want their pets to improve.

They will look for signs of improvement. They are kidding

themselves, I'm afraid. A very brief final thought Peter. If you cannot

prescribe homoeopathy on the NHS, what impact would that have? It

would have a negative effect. Homoeopathic medicines are quite

cheap. The people exempt from prescription fees, retired people,

unemployed people, children, it will make a big difference.

Thank you for your comments, keep them coming.

Fairly lively to the course of this morning. Courtesy of the first named

storm of the season, Abigail moving north-east reaching its peak. The

isobars in this chart, it will still be fairly windy. It will be replaced

by this former hurricane Kate. It will be windy. Rain will potentially

be a problem. We have seen lots of rain this morning, some showers have

been quite squally. Gusty winds. They are moving east. Snow across

the hills and mountains of Scotland and snow in northern England in the

hills and mountains and Northern Ireland. Fairly transient. In

between the showers, some dry spells and sunshine. The status quo

prevails in the afternoon in Scotland, the winds slowly

moderating. Colder across the board than lately. Northern England, hefty

showers, some could be thundery. Interspersed with bright skies and

sunshine. Still, showers peppering Northern Ireland and much of England

and Wales. It will be a blustery afternoon. Feeling colder than it

has in the last few weeks. Evening and overnight, the winds continued

to ease. They will pick up for a time during the night. A lot of

showers and dry weather. You can see what is waiting coming our way,

compared to recent nights, it will be a fairly cold one in prospect.

Saturday, this is the remnants of the hurricane Kate. Tropical air

embedded in it. Higher temperatures. A lot of rain.

Northern Scotland staying driest. Sunday, we will still have this

rain. We will see an exceptional amount of rain. Across the Pennines

and Snowdonia and even lower levels, 20-40 millimetres. One inch and a

half. Could lead to localised flooding is with rivers. Stay choose

to the weather forecast. -- stay tuned.

Hello, it's just after 10am, it's Friday 13th.

I'm Joanna Gosling in for Victoria, welcome to the programme.

If you've just joined us, coming up before 11am:

Has so-called Jihadi John being killed by US forces in Syria?

We'll be live in Washington and Downing Street for the very latest.

Killed, that would really be quite a crushing blow in terms of symbolic

We are live at Bristol Crown Court as Nathan man Matthews and Shauna

Hoare sentenced for killing Becky Watts.

Is it necessary to have a university degree to become a police officer?

The Islamic State killer Jihadi John is targeted by a US air strike

and sources say there's a "high degree of certainty" that

He appeared in beheading videos of Western hostages, the nephew of

Alan Henning, one of those murdered, has given the first family reaction.

He said he'd wanted the "coward behind the mask to suffer,

The government sells off more of the Northern Rock Bank,

chancellor George Osborne says it's sold ?13 billion worth

of its mortgages to a private investment company.

Northern Rock's collapse and nationalisation in 2008 marked

the start of the UK financial crisis but the government's now sold

The couple who killed Becky Watts will be sentenced today at

Earlier this week, a jury took less than four hours to find 28-year-old

Nathan Matthews guilty of his step sister's murder and 21-year-old

The teenager was suffocated and her body dismembered in February.

It was a sexually motivated kidnap plot. Decades of army backed rule in

Burma are to come to an end. With a resounding victory by former

political prisoner Aung San Suu Kyi. Her party's majority in parliament

was confirmed, five years to the day after she was finally released

from house arrest. Lunch with the queen for Indian

Prime Minister Narendra Modi today, then he'll address a mass crowd

at Wembley Stadium His visit to the UK has seen Britain

and India have announced a series of trade deals worth

around ?10 billion. There've also been

human rights protests. The first storm to be named in

the UK has been causing disruption Abigail has seen gusts of more than

80 miles per hour in the Orkney and Western Isles and hundreds were

left without power overnight. It's the first storm to be named in

the UK. Gusts of 80 miles an hour. And Radio Two presenter Dermot

O'Leary will be stepping into Sir Terry Wogan's shoes

for tonight's Children in Need. Sir Terry's missing

the fundraiser for the first time Let's catch up with all the sport

now. As we have been discussing, a big

day for Russian athletics. You've been talking

about it already this morning, Russia will find out later today

what sanctions the IAAF will impose, following the World Anti Doping

Agency report earlier this week. That report, you'll remember,

accused Russia of Russia's athletics federation

submitted its response last night to the IAAF ahead of the

governing body's final decision. The Russian Sports Minister has been

quoted as saying they may create a new anti-doping agency to address

concerns and that they are Of course, one option the IAAF may

consider is banning Russian athletes The British 400 metre runner Martyn

Rooney thinks that would be unfair. I'm sympathetic to the clean

athletes. Identical leave every athlete in Russia is on drugs, they

have very talented athletes in Russia. It would be very unfair,

guys going for an Olympic medal having the opportunity taken away in

a very short career. I have sympathy for those guys. There needs to be

some kind of strong message from the IAAF. It will be a tough decision,

whoever has to make it. If they ban everyone, it is not fair on the

people who have toiled and put their body through everything, just do

have that opportunity taken away from them.

Some of the candidates have already ruled

themselves out of the job, but Jake White has told the BBC that he would

take the role of England rugby union head coach if he was offered it.

The South African, who won the World Cup with

South Africa in 2007, says he could do the same with England if he's

White is currently coaching Montpelier, but is the bookmakers'

England, Wales and Northern Ireland all play

With their qualifications for next year's European

Championships already assured, it's a chance for managers to try

But the stakes are much higher for the Republic of Ireland,

Martin O Neill's side play the first-leg of their play off against

Bosnia-Herzegovina tonight to try and earn their place at Euro 2016.

Radio 5live commentator Conor McNamara is

It's a huge game for Martin O'Neill's men, is there

There is. If you look back, in six months, the Republic of Ireland

would have been delighted to get to these play-offs. Now they are here,

nothing to lose. Having been to Euro 2012, there is a hunger for the

Irish players and supporters. To join England and Wales and Northern

Ireland and get to that... INTERFERENCE Republic of Ireland

have some absentees, Shane Long injured, scoring the goal in the

recent win against Germany. Jon Walters is suspended. So is John

O'Shea. Shay Given injured. The spine of the team is missing, not

great months for Irish injuries with the rugby World Cup and Paul

O'Connell and Jonny Sexton. Terry Wogan missing out on Children in

Need with a back injury. Hopefully some injury doubts will be back in

shape when it comes back to Dublin on Monday. INTERFERENCE we have

coverage on the BBC radio. If you offered Martin O'Neill... Sorry

about the technological problems. Well they'll be hoping for better

weather conditions in Bosnia than there were in Argentina last night

when heavy rain in Buenos Aires forced the cancellation of the

match between Argentina and Brazil. The pitch was waterlogged and there

were problems across the city. The World Cup qualifier will

now be played tonight. So you can't escape the lashings

of Storm Abigail, I will be back at 10:30am. Thank

you. We're on BBC Two and the BBC News

Channel until 11am this morning. Lots of you getting in touch about

our conversation before the news and sport on homoeopathy. Penny texted

to say my 18-month-old son had numerous courses of antibiotics.

After homoeopathic treatment, we didn't see a doctor for two years,

the placebo effect on a toddler? A tweet from Lorraine, I have

successfully used homoeopathic remedies on animals and they do not

understand the placebo effect. Richard e-mails, I am tired of

hearing these arrogant attacks on homoeopathy which ignore the

experience of many people including myself and the historical record

which shows natural remedies have been affected ever since man walked

the earth. Even now, conventional medicine is looking at the natural

world for remedies because laboratory produced medications are

overprescribed and becoming less effective. Matt has tweeted, as a GP

I would not advocate prescribing something which has no scientific

basis or evidence to support it. Sean on Facebook, should be banned

from the NHS, absolutely no scientific merit. Thank you for your

comments. As always,

your contributions to this programme Texts will be charged

at the standard network rate. Don't forget, you can watch

the programme online wherever you are, via the BBC news app or

our website bbc.co.uk/Victoria. And you can also subscribe to all

our features on the news app, by going to add topics and

searching 'Victoria Derbyshire'". Mohammed Emwazi, the Kuwait it born

British militant appeared many of the hostage beheading videos by the

group known as Isis and became notorious for his London accent and

wearing a black robe with a balaclava covering his face.

The US Pentagon says it has targeted him in a drone strike near Raqqa in

Syria and, according to a senior military source, there is a 'high

But who was Jihadi John and how did he end up as a jihadi?

If there were changes, they happens later. Certainly, if there was

anything going on while he was in school, they had no knowledge or

idea that was happening, if it was happening.

In the last few minutes the nephew of Alan Henning, a British aid

worker who was killed by IS in Syria has tweeted.

He said: "Mixed feelings today wanted the coward behind the mask to

suffer the way Alan and his friends did but also glad it's been

David Cameron is due to speak about this later and Downing Street has

issued a brief statement this morning.

We have been working hand in glove with the Americans to defeat ISIL

and to hunt down those murdering hostages.

The Prime Minister has said before that tracking down these brutal

Our correspondent Gary O'Donoghue is here with the reaction to this news

Our political correspondent Chris Mason is in Downing Street

where the Prime Minister will later make a statement.

Gary, what have you heard about this operation?

The details are starting to become clearer, now. It happened after dark

on Thursday evening, local time in Syria. We know the Americans, the

coalition have been shacking Jihadi John, Mohammed Emwazi, for some time

-- have been tracking. They targeted him in Raqqa. We think there were

one or two, possibly more people, in that vehicle and it was hit. I was

told it was a direct hit, a great strike, as one individual put it to

me. They believe there was a high degree of certainty he was killed.

Officially, they are saying, look, we will assess the operation to see

what was achieved. They won't go as far, formally, to say they

definitely killed him. Now, the process is to verify that and they

do that by talking to human intelligence sources on the ground.

Spies they have. They monitor text messages, e-mails, phone calls,

those kinds of things, to verify this fact before they can be

absolutely certain. That is the state of things at the moment. The

speed of which they came out and said they thought they killed him,

and that they were pretty certain about it is an indication of their

confidence. Having said that, in the past, they have claimed to have

killed people who have popped up elsewhere.

If he has been killed, how much of a clue would that be for America? This

would be a major coup for both Washington and London. Not

particularly because he was a senior figure in the military structure of

IS. But he represented the whole propaganda, the sophisticated

propaganda successes that IS had delivered during the past year or

more. He featured strongly, of course, everybody remembers, in

those videos, those chilling videos that bounced around the world and

horrified many countries, most countries, but also acted as a

recruiting Sergeant for many Islamic militants who came to Syria as a

result of seeing them. It will be a significant coup in the propaganda

war. Chris, what reaction from Downing

Street? We are expecting a statement from

the Prime Minister shortly. In a statement issued by text earlier

this morning, number Number ten emphasising that the UK and

Washington have been working hand in glove in tracking down those enemies

within Isil over the past few months. You will remember that a

year ago we heard of those horrendous videos emerging out of

Syria regarding Mohammed Emwazi's acts. The UK and Washington have

been working very closely trying to track him down ever since.

Symbolically it would be a huge moment if this death was confirmed.

The fact we are expecting to hear from the Prime Minister on camera

shortly gives us some sense of how credible this appears to be, and how

they seem to have amassed as much evidence as is feasible at this

stage, to be as certain as they can that they have killed him. The fact

that the Prime Minister is coming out so quickly after the reports

emerged, a sign of how important they see this in Downing Street?

Absolutely. They regard this as a hugely important moment. They say

they helping keeping an eye on what has been going on for months. They

have been working very closely with the United States to try to ensure

they could track down and keep an eye on the movements of Mohammed

Emwazi, from a propaganda perspective for Islamic state, he

has been hugely important. A face that has been seen around the world

in those videos. Because there he was with a British accent appearing

in the deserts of Syria, particularly with those British

hostages prior to their death when they were looking so horrendously

and understandably scared, if there is news confirming his death, and it

would appear that both America and London are pretty confident that,

then yes, that would be a huge moment. We are expecting a statement

pretty soon. Perhaps as soon as ten minutes. When Downing Street says

the UK has been working hand in glove with the US, is it clear if

there was any British involvement in this operation directly? We do not

know yet, is the honest answer. We simply do not know exactly who was

involved, other than to say that Downing Street emphasised they have

been working very closely over the past few months in keeping an eye on

him and tracking others within the so-called Islamic State. The news

overnight from military sources was emerging out of Washington, which

suggests at this stage it was a US-led drone attack. Perhaps we will

get further information from the Prime Minister. We do expect to hear

in the next ten minutes from him. Thank you both.

There's a suggestion this morning that police recruits should have

A drive to cut the number of stillbirths and deaths

among new babies by half over the next 15 years, has been launched.

One in every 200 babies is stillborn - and the government wants to reduce

those numbers, as well as the amount of neonatal deaths, maternal deaths

and brain injuries that occur during or soon after birth by 20%

Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt is pledging an extra ?4 million of

funding for hospitals in England, which works out at around ?25,000

So how much of a difference will that actually make?

We can talk now to Will Quince, Conservative MP for Colchester,

And Emma Jones and Chris Goodger, whose son Tyler was stillborn

Thank you for joining us. Emma and Chris, tell us what your experiences

were? They were both very different. When we had Tyler he was born by

surprise in May 2012. I just went into labour, normal. I was only 22

weeks. He was born premature. He was stillborn. We came to terms with it.

We had the funeral. And we dealt with it as a family. No

bereavement, no counselling, anything like that. Then we were

expecting our second son, Riley. But he also came along unexpectedly

early. That was 22 weeks and four days. Terrible times. You have been

campaigning for a change since. What things would have made a difference

for you, particularly with Tyler? Well... More than anything I think

it would have been the support from the hospitals. They were both seem

very differently. Because Tyler was stillborn, there was nothing they

could do to help after. Because I was at low risk. Once I had

delivered him, he had already done. In terms of support? No bereavement

support. Anything like that. It was, we are very sorry. Stay a few days

with the baby and go home. So you had to go through the full labour?

Yes, the full labour. A long labour. Money is being put into the system

to try to improve things. What sort of things would you like to see

money put into? As much as I know, I know it is being funded for England

at the moment. With me coming from Wales, I'm hoping that this also

happens within Wales. In Welsh hospitals. Yes. At the moment we

would still be in the same rut. There are babies being left. I have

a lot of friends who sadly went full term, which are met through an

organisation. They said if there were more scans, if they were looked

at more closely, if things were done quicker. More specialist care. Those

deaths could have been avoided. Reds talk to will quince, an MP. I know

that you had a stillborn son a year ago. Still very difficult for your

family to go through that as well. Tell us what happened? Massively. If

I could just say, my heart goes out to Emma and Chris because I do know

how they feel. Our son Robert had a rare chromosomal disorder. He was

stillborn at full term last year in October at Colchester General

Hospital. Money is now being put into hospitals to try to reduce the

number of stillborn children. It is ?4 million. That is ?25,000 for each

hospital trust. Is it money that will make much of a difference? I

think it will make a huge amount of difference. A lot of that money will

be spent on training and monitoring equipment, especially in the later

stages of pregnancy. But for me it is more of a focus. It is a focus on

treatment but also on the stillbirth and neonatal death. It is absolutely

shocking how badly we perform as a country against the Western world.

It is an absolute focus. It is something we should have done a long

time ago. I am proud of the Government has taken this initiative

on. 5000 babies. We are talking about statistics but we are talking

about babies, parents, families. Having gone through that experience,

I can honestly tell you that I will never, ever forget what it feels

like to see your wife gives birth to a lifeless baby. The doctor bringing

over a stethoscope and put it to your baby's chest and shake his

head. I don't want families to go through that process. Every single

stillbirth and neonatal death is a tragedy. I am proud of this

government is taking a stand and taking steps to address it and how

that number by 2013 -- howls that number. At what stage did you know

your child was going to be stillborn? We knew from about 22

weeks that Robert had Edward syndrome, a condition described as

not being compatible with life. Some children with that syndrome live for

a few days, a few weeks, even a few years on some occasions. We did not

know until labour itself at 41 weeks that Robert was going to be

stillborn. It was only in the last few moments of pregnancy that we

feared the worst. He was breached as well. Medically, could anything out

have been done differently? If there had been more medical resources. It

does not sound like it was a lack of resources in your case which was an

issue? No, it wasn't. I have got to praise very highly Colchester

General Hospital. The maternity unit is second to none. We had a

specialist bereavement suite. One of the things I am campaigning for is a

specialist treatment suite in every hospital. That should be a priority.

Part of the problem is the level of care is patchy across the NHS in

England. Some hospitals do it absolutely brilliantly. And sadly in

others it is not done well enough. Getting that consistent level of

care is the priority of the Government. I'm so proud of the

Government. This is the proudest moment I have had in my six months

as an MP. Emma and Chris, listening to will, how do you feel? Firstly, I

just do want to say how sorry I am for what happened. I can understand

the pain. I can. And even though our son, wryly, was born, he actually

managed to live with us for 92 minutes, even being premature. I can

understand the pain that you went through. I am very sorry. I agree

with you. This is absolutely fantastic. Too many babies do die.

And some of them can be saved and some of them do not have too. I

understand there are low-risk pregnancies. But they can always

turn into high risk within minutes. People need to be watched a lot more

than what they are. And overly hope that after this being announced

today in England, I'm hoping it comes to Wales, so we also can

benefit from the change as well. I really do. On a personal note, you

have been through heartache, terrible times, trying to have a

baby. Your mum is now going to be a surrogate, is that right? Yes, at

the moment we have been through -- to a few hospital appointments. And

my body, sadly, in between both boys I also suffered two miscarriages. My

womb can no longer hold a pregnancy no more. So the option for us is

surrogacy. And my mother is the main person for us. She is my best

friend. She wants to give us something we really want, which is a

baby. We are going down that road at the moment. Good luck. I hope so.

Thank you very much. Thank you, Emma and Chris. And well. Thank you all

very much. Let's go live to Bristol Crown Court

now where sentencing has begun in Our correspondent

Andrew Plant is there. What is happening? We are told there

is a very different atmosphere to Wednesday here at Bristol Crown

Court. Less formal in some ways. There are a limited number of seats.

The judge has allowed a lot of people who want to be there to go in

and stand, which is an unusual move. We are told there are some 40

members of Becky Watts's family and friends inside wearing T-shirts with

her face on. In the past couple of minutes we have had a victim impact

statement read out on behalf of Becky's father. He has said that

Becky is now known as Bristol's angel. He has said that they will

never understand why this has happened. He called it a plot grown

out of hatred and said they had suffered searing pain and anguish.

He also added that they, repairing -- referring to Nathan Matthews and

Shauna Hoare, had sat in his home and watched his descent into hell

and madness without any remorse. How long will send an single on for edge

-- sentencing go on for Q macro bearing in mind Becky went missing

nine months ago, and very quickly police arrested her stepbrother and

his girlfriend. It took nine months to get to court. We heard 21 days of

evidence. Everybody thought it would take the jury quite a long time to

reach their conclusion. On Wednesday they came back with a guilty

verdict. Very quick. We think today there will be a little slower. They

have to read out the impact statements in court and will go

through the sentencing. Sentencing Nathan Matthews for murder and

Shauna Hoare for manslaughter. David Cameron is commenting on the

targeted strike on Jihadi John in Downing Street. Good morning, last

night the United States carried out an air strike in Raqqa, Syria,

targeting Mohammed Emwazi, known as Jihadi John. We cannot yet be

certain if the strike was successful. But, let me be clear,

I've always said we would do whatever was necessary, whatever it

took, to track down Mohammed Emwazi and stop him taking the lives of

others. We've been working with the United States, literally around the

clock, to track him down. This was a combined effort. The contribution

both our countries was essential. Mohammed Emwazi is a barbaric,

murderer. He was shown in this sick videos of beheading a British aid

workers. He posed an ongoing and serious threat to innocent civilians

not only in Syria but around the world. And in the United Kingdom. He

was I still was mad lead executioner. Let us never forget

that he killed many, many Muslims. He was intent on murdering many more

people. This was an act of self defence. It was the right thing to

do. Today, I want to thank the United States, the United Kingdom

has no better friend or ally. I want to pay tribute to all those

professionals in our own security and intelligence agencies and Armed

Forces, for the extraordinary work they do on behalf of our country. On

this, as so often, they have been working hand in glove with their

American colleagues. We are proud of them. If this strike was successful,

and we still await confirmation of that, it would be a strike at the

heart of Isil and it would demonstrate to those who want to do

harm to Britain, we have a long reach, unwavering determination and

we never forget about our citizens. The threat Isil posed continues,

Britain and our allies will not rest until we've defeated this evil,

terrorist death cult and the poisonous ideology on which it

feeds. Today, though, my thoughts and the folds of our country are

with the families of those who are Brittany murder -- our thoughts and

the thoughts. The Japanese citizens, the American journalist

and the American aid worker. And our own citizens, aid workers David

Haynes and Alun hemming. Nothing will bring back David and Allen.

Their courage and selflessness stand in stark contrast to the empty

callousness of their murderers. Their friends and their families

should be proud of them. As we are. They were the best of British. They

will be remembered, long after the murderers of Isil our forgotten.

Thank you. STUDIO: A brief statement from the

Prime Minister, David Cameron on the targeted air strike on so-called

Jihadi John, Mohammed Emwazi in Syria, no confirmation yet that he

was certainly killed in the attack. The United States is speaking

confidently about the strike but Downing Street says was... Will

demonstrate the UK has a long reach and unwavering determination. And

the UK will never forget its citizens. Let's go to Chris Mason in

Downing Street, listening to the Prime Minister. Your thoughts?

It was pretty striking the prime investor was keen to come out and

give this statement as quickly as he did, after that news emerged from

Washington overnight and he chose to do it here in the street behind the

Downing Street lectin. It gives you some sense of the gravity of this

moment. As Downing Street sees it. The commonest emphasised at the top

of that statement, they haven't got complete confirmation -- the Prime

Minister emphasised. His willingness to give the statement in the street

behind the lactone so quickly after the news emerged that as far as they

can tell, with the best information they have at this stage, they are

pretty confident they have got their man. We also learned about the

detail of the working relationship between the US and the UK in going

after Mohammed Emwazi. And how significant a figure they felt he

was in the propaganda war that Isil have fought around the world with

those horrendous execution videos. How central he was, particularly

given with his British accent, he was able to project himself as

someone who had travelled from the west into the heart of Isil and was

able to terrorise, via those videos. So many around the world.

Particularly with those hostages, British hostages and others from

around the world who were killed on camera. Thanks. Let's bring you

up-to-date. David Cameron says self-styled Islamic State killer,

so-called Jihadi John was targeted by drones in Syria as an act of

self-defence. The Prime Minister has said the UK has been working hand in

glove with the Americans to track down and stop Mohammed Emwazi who

appeared in hostage beheading videos. He said he posed an ongoing

threat. Sources say there's

a 'high degree of certainty' that The government has sold off more

of the Northern Rock Bank, chancellor George Osborne says ?13

billion worth of its mortgages have been bought

by a private investment company. Northern Rock's collapse marked

the start of the UK financial crisis but the government's now sold

around 85% of its assets. The couple who killed Becky Watts

are sentenced today at Earlier this week a jury took less

than four hours to find 28-year-old Nathan Matthews guilty

of his step sister's murder and his 21-year-old girlfriend, Shauna

Hoare, guilty of manslaughter. The teenager was killed

in a sexually-motivated kidnap plot Schools have been closed,

ferries cancelled and power supplies cut as Storm Abigail hits northern

Scotland and the western isles. It's the first storm to be named

in the UK, there've been windy Let's catch up with all

the sport now and join Hugh. A quick reminder of the sport

headlines this morning, we'll find out later today what sanctions will

be imposed on Russian athletics following the World Anti Doping

report. The Russian Sports Minister has been

quoted as saying his country may create a new anti

doping agency to address concerns. The Montpellier coach

and former head of South African rugby Jake White says he could win

the World Cup with England if he was given the chance to replace

Stuart Lancaster as Head Coach. The Republic of Ireland face

Bosnia Herzegovina this evening in the first leg

of their Euro 2016 play off. Martin O Neill's men will be hoping

to join England, Northern Ireland and Wales

at next year's Championships. And Andy Murray has avoided

Novak Djokovic and Roger Federer in the group stage of the

ATP World Tour Finals. But he'll come up against

Rafael Nadal in the opening stages I've got more sport on BBC

News throughout the day including all the build-up to

tonight's international football. Remember Ireland's Euro 2016

play-off is live from 7pm this Terry Wogan has been forced to pull

out of tonight's Children in Need It's the first time he'll have

missed presenting the programme Children in Need has raised more

than ?790 million for children and young people across the UK

since its launch, helping countless she was just amazing in every way,

she was such a blessing. She was very sociable,

very outgoing, had lots of friends. As you can see,

it's very pink and this is because I had it painted when I was six years

old and I wanted to be This is my favourite teddy, Snoozy,

who I have had I just thought she was cute so I

slept with her every night. In January of 2012, when Lauren was

12, Lauren had an ongoing headache, After her scan, we were brought

back to our local hospital. We were given the devastating news

that Lauren had a brain tumour. The first brain surgery

was successful. After her second surgery,

unfortunately, she developed every complication

and she went into a coma and we But it was the power

of prayer that pulled her through. She has a lot to cope with

on a day-to-day basis. I feel so lucky to have her

in my life. This was my proton mask,

when I was having radiotherapy Here it is is now,

it is now a lampshade. People think it's quite creepy,

but it's quite relaxing. Lauren, come on,

it's time to get ready to go. Children in Need have helped us

in every way. We have been very lucky to

have been offered therapy Lauren is so relaxed after her

therapy session, she sleeps Lauren has been very isolated,

due to her illness. Without Children in Need funding

Action Cancer, Lauren and myself would not be able to have

this cherished time that we have. That's Lauren's story,

she was helped by Action Cancer. And Children In Need is on BBC One

tonight from 7:30pm. Should new police officers

have university degrees? At the moment, it's up to individual

forces in England and Wales to decide what level of

education their new recruits need. But the College of Policing,

which sets police training standards, says maybe the job

requires degree-level education. It is consulting on the plans,

which if approved could run as a pilot in 2017 and be adopted across

all 43 forces two years later. Joining us are

Chief Constable Alex Marshall, Chief Exec of the College of

Policing, Steve White Chair of the Police Federation which represents

officers and Mike Pannett, who was Thank you for joining us. Chief

Constable Alex Marshall, your thoughts? We have looked at the role

police officers now perform. And how it has changed very substantially in

recent years. They are dealing with far more convex issues, online

crime, much more about public protection, child abuse

investigations, domestic abuse. They are also dealing with aspects of

financial fraud and international issues. And the changes to the

criminal law and criminal justice procedures. We have said the current

workforce deserve recognition for working at that high level and

showed, at least, beaver organised in the same way as other similar

professions. -- be recognised. If they want to pursue a degree based

on prior learning they have already got in the police. The nature of

police work and how it has changed over the years and how it is likely

to change over the next few years, we are saying the next generation of

people coming into policing should start with a practical police

degree, before they go out on the streets. We think this is important

for the public to know there is a national standard across the country

and that police officers arrive with that formal qualification. Does that

send out a message, though, that you are not confident in the ability of

police, without degrees to do the job? As I said, my starting point is

that the current workforce has shifted amazingly to all the new

demands in policing, the changes in forensics, technology and online

investigation and public protection and working with other agencies. The

training and skills they have acquired over recent years deserve

recognition. We are talking to universities, to save will they

accredit Matt prior learning and where an officer wants to, will they

be able to pursue a degree in policing and achieve that level of

recognition? Then we look to the future and save that is the way

policing is changing, as well as the good things that we look for in a

police officer, good values, the ability to communicate, understand

local communities, be able to solve problems and have empathy, in

addition, we think they should come in with a very practical police

degree in the same way you would expect a social worker or a

probation officer or a nurse to have done.

Steve White, you represent rank and file officers.

What do you think about this? There is a lot of stuff I agree with in

terms of the skills and training police officers get during their

career. Do not have an issue with that. I have had messages from many

officers this morning who are turned off by the idea. We have to be

really careful. The police services is under huge pressure. Police

officers are responding magnificently. We have clear

evidence that demonstrates you do not need to have a degree, excepting

that officers are operating at that level. To simply say that further

down the line we expect you to pay for your own training before you

even get considered to come into the police service, is going to be very

difficult, I think. You will end up with large swathes of people who are

unable to apply to the service who could make excellent police

officers. Yes, it is great when you come across a fight on the high

Street to understand the social, demographic and economic reasons

behind why they are fighting. But you need people who can intervene,

deal with the fight, arrest people and domesticated. We have to be

careful confusing and academic degree, perhaps in criminology, that

might give you that better understanding, with a practical

police degree. If you look at what nurses do, they spend 50% of their

time undertaking their degree on the ward working alongside experienced

nurses and getting practical skills. Four police officers we want not

only the compassion and empathy and ability to communicate well, we also

need them to have a Raly good knowledge and skill level around the

legal aspects -- really good knowledge... How to do an online

investigation, as well as those practical issues. We ask an awful

lot from the people who work in policing. So my first point is, give

recognition to the people with those skills already and let them have the

qualification if that is what they want to pursue. Let's be realistic

about the future. The next generation, more of them will have

degrees than not. To say it will make us less representative is

tricky. We are not very representative at the moment. It may

well be that we are seen as a more attractive career. I not dismissing

what Steve says. By the way, the fight that he talks and people

understanding the social and economic factors, that will also

become an online investigation when three people tweet about it, two

people film it on their mobile phone. It is not the pub fight I was

dealing with in 1980 other one my grandfather was dealing with when he

was a policeman. Investigations are very different. But the point is you

will still need people with the qualities you will be able to

intervene and to deal with that. That does not necessarily mean at

the outset you have a degree. Otherwise we are talking about a 2

tier service. You will end up with highly qualified police officers at

one end of the spectrum and some other form of officer at the other

end. I do not think that is the police service we want. I do not

think Alex is suggesting that. But you will lose a whole tranche of

people who have good relative experience who can come into the

service and gain qualifications when they are in the service. In relation

to nursing, we have also seen some criticism recently about the level

of nursing professionalism taking away the empathy and care in some

cases, in terms of actually nursing the patient. I do not think we want

to go down that route because policing is about doing it with the

consent of communities, and we need to make sure they reflect the

committees they serve. I'm not against people with degrees joining

the police force. Absolutely not. Might pan out, you were in the

police service for 20 years without a degree. -- might pan out. What is

your view? The key things to being a police officer is integrity,

courage, compassion, common-sense. You need a whole different set of

skills to be a good police officer. I joined the police service and many

other of the colleagues that I have worked with, outstanding colleagues,

have managed to somehow carry out major investigations. They have been

given commendations for both bravery, for criminal

investigation. A whole raft of different things. Policing is a

unique business. There is no sort of degree that you could ever possibly

obtain. When you suddenly realise what being a police officer is

like, there is nothing that can prepare you for that. We have a good

two year probation period. At the end of that period, Alice Alex

Marshall is alluding to, police officers should be rewarded with

potentially a degree in policing. The fundamental problem we have here

is, if you are turning around and saying that all people who want to

join the police service in the future should have a degree, I think

that is a fundamental mistake. No disrespect to somebody who has got a

degree in zoology or music, what relevance that would have two being

a police officer. Don't forget, look at a mother from a disadvantaged

background, maybe 40 years of age, who can join the police service now

and make a huge difference. Policing is all about how you deal with the

situation. We did not drive around London when there were serious

criminal acts taking place, we did not look around the police van and

say, hang on, who has got a degree in catching that Fender? Do not

disagree with Alex Marshall. Policing is a complicated business

but you do not need to be a rocket scientist to be a good detective. It

is about balance. It is about being a team. I was successful in my

career. Colleagues and ex-colleagues have not had a degree have got heaps

of commendations and have been outstanding police officers. We have

got people from the military who wants to join the police. We cannot

exclude people. It is about having the right people to do the job.

Thank you for joining us and giving us your perspective. Let's go back

to the targeted US drone strike on jihad John, as he has nicknamed.

Mohammed Emwazi. -- G Hadi John. David Cameron has been speaking

about that drone strike. We cannot yet be certain if the strike was

successful. But let me be clear. I have always said that we would do

whatever was necessary, whatever it took to track down Emwazi and to

stop him taking the lives of others. We have been working with the United

States, literally around the clock, to track him down. This was a

combined effort and the contribution of both of our countries was

essential. Emwazi is a barbaric murderer. He was shown in those

sickening videos of the beheading of British aid workers. The pose an

ongoing in serious threat to innocent civilians, not only in

Syria, but around the world, and in the United Kingdom. He was Isil's

leader executioner and let us never forget that he killed many Muslims

too. He was intent on murdering many more people. So this was an act of

self defence. It was the right thing to do. We can speak now to a

journalist who spent time embedded with so-called Islamic State in Iraq

and Syria and believes he met Jihadi John. Tell us about the occasion

when you believe you met him? He was the boss of our IS command. He was

the driver. The driver is usually somebody very important. He had

always a big scarf around his face trying to hide his face. But his

accent and his dialect, many other things, remembered as Jihadi John.

When we came back and his cover was blown by British journalists, we had

the opportunity to make a long research and it was very clear that

it was Jihadi John. I had seen his face also wants in a restaurant in a

place beside our restaurant. He was extremely angry because of that. He

said I tried to spy him out. 99.9% we are sure this was Jihadi John.

What was he like? Very unfriendly, very on polite, very rough. Trying

to impose his will. We had disputes at the beginning because after one

hour, even myself I had to shout at him and to tell him, you will not

speak to me this way. He wanted to impose his will and he wanted to

make the problem and say what we had to do. I did not accept that. He was

the biggest problem of the whole trip. He was not flexible at all.

Incredibly impolite and dangerous. He was threatening also my son. Not

a good experience. I just want to get some reaction from former pro

Minister Tony Blair, who is welcomed the report of the possible killing

and reiterated support for increased UK military action against IS in

Iraq and Syria. But he says it does not necessarily mean US -- UK ground

troops are required. Just going back to what you were saying, Juergen,

about how he tried to impose his will on the group that you were in.

How much authority did he have? He has been described by many as having

been a propaganda figurehead for external consumption, but not having

had very much power necessarily within the organisation? That is

correct. He did not have much power but he was the most powerful in our

IS commando. He was a sober leader. He was the face, the covered face of

the beheadings. In a certain way he was a star. But the British and the

German guys in Raqqa played a very important role in the propaganda of

IS. Propaganda is one of the most dangerous weapons of the IS. He

played a quite important role but not so important. He was an

executioner. He was the spokesman and questions concerning executions.

But if you kill an executioner in the United States, you kill an

executioner. The leaders are still there. I am not sure if IS considers

this as a defeat. For them, if the message is confirmed, he will be a

martyr. There were many rumours about his death before it was told

that he was forced to go in exile. It was told that IS had killed him.

There are always many rumours. Thank you very much for joining us.

A journalist who is pretty sure he met Jihadi John.

Victoria's back on Monday, when she'll look at calls to crack

It comes as figures show the number of people being admitted

to hospital after being attacked by corrosive substances has doubled

MUSIC: Boombastic by Shaggy