12/11/2015 Victoria Derbyshire


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12/11/2015

The father of a British man killed in the Germanwings plane crash says the suicidal co-pilot should have been grounded. Plus guidelines for treating the symptoms of the menopause.


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Hello it's Thursday, it's 9.15, I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

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Murdered by her step-brother who acted out sick fantasies

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after watching online pornography - Becky Watts was just 16 when she

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was killed by the man she grew up with.

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I just couldn't accept it. He seemed fine, loving.

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The devastation and the heartbreak is indescribable. I do

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not have the vocabulary to describe the feeling.

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Watch the full interview in the next few minutes.

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Plus, a warning that mental health patients could be put

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at risk because NHS Trusts in England are cutting costs and

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We'll speak to an NHS trust before 10.

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And, forget the red carpet, award ceremonies and film premiers;

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George Clooney is in Edinburgh opening a cafe for homeless people.

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Hello and welcome to the programme, we're on BBC 2 and the BBC News

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Throughout the morning we'll keep you across the latest breaking

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A little later we'll hear claims that women and doctors have lost

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confidence in hormone replacement therapy or HRT as a possible

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treatment for the menopause because of the associated cancer risks.

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If you're on HRT or don't take it because

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Texts will be charged at the standard network rate.

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And of course you can watch the programme online wherever you

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are via the bbc news app or our website bbc.co.uk/victoria

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and you can also subscribe to all our features on the news app,

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by going to add topics and searching Victoria Derbyshire.

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"I loved him like he was my own son; now I hate him".

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The words of Becky Watts' father w is having to deal with the murder

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of his 16-year-old daughter and the knowledge that her killer

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28-year-old Nathan Matthews was found guilty of murdering her during

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His girlfriend Shauna Hoare was convicted of manslaughter

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In a police interview recorded in March, Nathan Matthews claimed

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it was an accident and he hadn't meant to kill his step-sister.

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He said he just wanted to scare her as he was upset with

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He said she'd leave things on the floor which would trip her up.

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We're going to play you the beginning

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of that disturbing police interview now; it lasts just over one minute.

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Nathan, can you give us your full name?

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Perhaps if I just flag up for the recording what this

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It is about the kidnap and murder of Becky Watts.

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Obviously I don't want that to be read to someone.

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HE SOBS I don't want to read this out in full again, Nathan,

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but what I wanted to do was get some more detail from you about things

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So perhaps if I could pull out some things from

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what you have told us and ask you to expand on it, tell us a bit more.

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I came up with the idea to scare her cos, like, to try and basically make

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more appreciative of life, so she'd be more appreciative

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for other people, she'd be like, grateful that she wasn't harmed or

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Later when he appeared in court, Matthews admitted watching

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pornography every day; he had multiple explicit images stored

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on his computer including a video about the rape of a teenage girl.

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Matthews' and his girlfriend's interest in sexual violence was not

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limited to looking on the internet, it spilled over into real life even

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In court, it emerged the pair swapped messages about

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sexual kidnappings and saved pages on their mobile phones of girls

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Becky Watt's father Darren and her step-mother, who is Nathan

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Matthews mother, Anje Galsworthy have been speaking exclusively to

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It seems so quiet without her here now.

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If you've got a child like Becky, you're just used to noise.

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And then when it is not there, you really notice it.

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They were like brother and sister and they acted like it as well.

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We was a little family unit, weren't we?

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We were a little dysfunctional because we were all

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from a different parent and partners and all that sort of thing.

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We was quite a strong little unit, which is why it is such a

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But together they raised Becky from the age of three.

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Nathan lived nearby with his granny, but spent most weekends with them.

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He was pretty good with her, to be honest.

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He used to take round all the adventure playgrounds

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for the smaller kids, with all the pits and stuff like that.

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And ironically her first clear word, and she didn't speak until she was

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It's really hot anyway because of the microwave.

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13 years later, Nathan, her stepbrother,

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Tell us about what it was like when she went missing?

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I never believed, not in the early stages,

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The anxiety of thinking that she was out there

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Your imagination absolutely running riot with horrible things that could

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I was determined I was going to get her back.

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Becks, if you can see this, get in contact.

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And if anyone out there knows summat, just tell us.

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If you've got her, then put her somewhere we can find her.

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It's like ripping your heart out and stamping all over it.

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It was a darkness that just wouldn't leave the house, wasn't it?

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I couldn't put my worst enemy through it.

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Six days after Becky went missing, Darren and Angie were moved out

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of their home as forensic teams moved in.

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We were in a bed and breakfast out on the A38...

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And Nathan and Shauna had been arrested.

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And body parts had been found at the address.

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We just wanted to die. Our whole family, everything we knew,

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And then when they told you what had happened?

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I sat on the bed rocking violently backwards and forwards.

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The police weren't sure if I would do any harm to Angie. But obviously

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I'd just been told my daughter had been murdered and butchered.

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Her body parts found in suitcases and bags in a garden shed.

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Yeah, well, your son, my daughter, aren't it?

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A loving son, I would have described him as.

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He has always been open and honest with me.

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Nathan's girlfriend, Shauna Hoare, came into the family six years ago.

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She always put yourself across as being very timid and mousy.

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She always used to get her own way though.

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To be honest, I didn't like first of all.

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I couldn't put my finger on it, but there was something off about her.

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I sort of became more accepting of her and relaxed a little bit.

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And even loved her like a daughter, didn't I, in the end.

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Two years earlier at Nathan was best man, Becky and Shauna were

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bridesmaids, a united family, as Darren and Angie got married.

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They say, forever, despite this incredible strain.

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My love for her is immense, it really is.

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I've lost a couple of members of the family because I won't turn on her.

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If this doesn't break us up, then nothing is going to.

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Becky was murdered here, in her bedroom.

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I have put her bedroom back together now, so it is all I would was.

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It wasn't always as tidy as this, I can assure you.

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But, erm, yeah, this is how she likes it.

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I don't really want to leave here because...

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This is the only has she ever lived in.

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It has now been nine months since Becky died.

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I miss everything, even the arguments.

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Ten o'clock every night I expect that door to come

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and her to come through it - "Oh, cook us some tea, Dad."

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Every night I still listen out for it.

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We'll speak to Becky's uncle and a criminal psychologist later. Poor

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Becky didn't deserve this, nor did her family, those wicket people

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deserve to be put to death, from one texter. All evil is developed from

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childhood, nobody is born with it, we are born with a clean slate, all

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behaviour is learned, from another viewer. . Nurse Pauline Cafferkey's

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made a full recovery from ebola. We'll bring you the latest on her

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condition. The King's Fund health think-tank

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has warned patients are being put at risk through cost-cutting in NHS

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Trusts. The fund says 40% of Mental Health Trusts face budget cuts so

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are reducing staff and hospital beds. It claims many are introducing

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cheaper, untested self-help services.

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The Indian Prime Minister will touchdown this morning for a

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three-day visit to Britain. It's the first visit of an Indian Prime

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Minister in almost a decade. During his stay, Mr Mohdi will have lunch

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with the Queen and discuss business links with David Cameron.

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African and EU leaders will sign a deal today designed to reduce the

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number of migrants making ware way to Europe, a fund.3 will be

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established to improve conditions in the African countries that many

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young people are leaving. Pauline Cafferkey was readmitted to

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a special unit at the Royal free in London last month after falling ill

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with ebola for a second time. She's been transferred to a hospital in

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Glasgow to continue her recovery. Fifa has released the names of the

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five candidates who'll compete to replace Sepp Blatter as President of

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world football's governing body. A Ctial figure and one-time race

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favourite, my shell Platini did not make the list -- Michel Platini.

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Apple have apologised to six black schoolboys who were asked to leave

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their High Point shopping centre in Melbourne. A staff member can be

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heard saying "security are concerned that the boys would shoplift".

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There's been outcry. We are worried you might steal something. Why? The

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boy who posted it on Facebook labelled it simply racism. The

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manager has said sorry to the boys and head teacher. One has accepted

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it and said, we are chilling, no need to take it further.

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Let's catch up with all the sport now and join Hugh

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and a change of tone from Russia regarding the doping allegations.

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Yes, for the first time since the World Anti-Doping Agency made its

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damning report into alleged widespread cheats and corruption in

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cheating, Vladimir Putin has spoken and ordered a full investigation own

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the claims saying the battle must be open against those accused of taking

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part in a systematic doping programme. It is, as was say, a

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change of tune, he's asked his Sports Minister to pay the issue the

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greatest possible attention after he pointed the finger at the UK

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anti-doping programme calling it even worse, so there's work to be

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done there. The same is true of English rugby as well. Stuart

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Lancaster stepped down as Head Coach following the poor World Cup showing

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and now the search is on for a replacement, just about everyone's

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having their say on who they think that person should be and whether

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they should be English or not. It seems likely England will have a

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first foreign Head Coach. In the sport in this country, the first

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English Head Coach. We'll take a look at that and we have an June

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date on Fifa and an amazing story in basketball too. All that after ten.

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NHS trusts in England are being accused of putting mental health

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patients at risk because of measures to cut costs.

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Our health correspondent Nick Triggle can tell us more.

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The report today from whom, and what does it say?

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It is from the Kings fund, and the first thing to say is how common

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mental health problems. One in four of us will suffer and mental health

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condition, from depression and anxiety to more serious conditions

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like schizophrenia. That is what the report said it is so important is

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the NHS gets care right. But it seems it is not, the report says

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there is widespread evidence of poor care and they are linking this to

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cuts in services. More than four in ten trusts have seen their income

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drop in the past year and have responded by moving to more unproven

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treatments, cheaper ones including merging specialist teams into

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generic ones in the community and increasingly relying on volunteers

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and support staff instead of doctors and nurses. Meanwhile the number of

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hospital beds has dropped. The report acknowledges this is part of

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a wider NHS drive to move NHS care out of hospitals and into the

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community but they say the mental health it is happening to quickly

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and on two grand a scale. What do the Government say?

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The Government says it is investing in mental health, the overall budget

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increased last year to ?11.7 billion, about a 10th of the overall

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NHS spend but it seems not all of it is getting through to the mental

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health trusts. There could be a number of reasons for that, the

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private and voluntary sector also get involved in providing services

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in mental health, but it may also be the case that, with money so tight

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in the mental health service, bosses are using mental health funds to

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plug gaps elsewhere. Now the Government has said they want to

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stop that, they want to see parity of esteem between mental and

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physical health, which essentially means treating them the same, and to

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ensure that happens they are introducing waiting time targets so

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that people who need access to talking therapies should be seen

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within 18 weeks, and for those experiencing their first episode of

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psychosis they should get help within two weeks, which mirrors what

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has been in place for years in terms of hip and the replacements and

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cancer care. OK, thank you very much.

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"Kate" says the NHS dealt with her dad badly on a couple

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of occasions when he was self-harming and feeling suicidal.

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"Kate" isn't her real name as she's asked to remain anonymous.

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She's been speaking to our health correspondent Sophie Hutchinson.

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The reality was, they just couldn't find in a bed.

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They were doing everything they could but they had to just keep

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So we had to, as far as possible, look

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On the Friday we were told, "If you need help out of hours,

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I know we shouldn't be living you at 5pm this Friday because of the

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That night he was very difficult and then it reached a stage where

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And when the ambulance came out we were taken to a cafe,

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which was meant to be a place where people could, out of hours, go to

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But we are talking about a man who was acutely suicidal,

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in an ambulance, to the extent that the ambulance staff didn't feel it

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was safe or appropriate to take him into the cafe while there wasn't

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So my husband and my mum and my dad were outside this cafe at

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11 o'clock at night in this ambulance, waiting to see if

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somebody could come out and see dad.

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Then after 50 minutes there was still nobody to talk to him,

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and so the ambulance crew made the decision, "Right, we're going back

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Which is not helpful for anybody involved.

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It's very difficult for A staff to manage somebody so acutely ill.

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And all the services knew that was not where my dad needed to be,

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Let's talk to Kerry, who's experienced psychosis and says her

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And Claire Murdoch, who's the chief executive of the Central

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and North West London NHS Trust, and also chairs the Cavendish Square

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Group which represents London's ten NHS mental health trusts.

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Welcome to both of you. Kerry, you went to A to try to get yourself

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admit it. What happened? At a few years ago after some difficult

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things in my life I became really seriously ill, I was frightened,

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very miserable, very confused and hearing voices. I knew that I was

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just getting worse and worse, and there came a point when I didn't

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feel I could keep myself faked so I ended up going to A and saying, I

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can't keep myself safe, please can I be in hospital? Bessette, you can't,

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there are no beds, and I got home. Two days later, I tried to set

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myself on fire. Luckily it didn't work, but I was sectioned, said

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hospital against my will, but a game I had to wait about nine hours in

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A and there were no NHS beds in the north-east of England at the

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time at all, so I was sent to a private hospital some distance away

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from where I lived, and that was frightening and confusing because my

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friends and family couldn't come and visit me as easily. Even since that

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have happened, there have been more bed closures. Since that time there

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have been 32 bed closures in my local area. Claire Murdoch, this

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story is an illustration of some of the things that this independent

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report is suggesting today. Do you recognise a pitch it is painting?

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First of all I would like to say I really recognise -- really welcomed

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the report because we all recognise the immense pressure services are

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under. When that pressure manifests so that decisions over whether to

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add amid someone or not when there is a bed available are compromised,

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then things are very, very wrong. We should not be waiting until we have

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two sections one, detain them against their will, when a few days

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earlier they were happy to come and ask for help. A whole different

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experience could have followed. There is a lot in the report that I

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do recognise, and I guess the key thing I would like to say is, whilst

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it is not all about money, some of our poorer funded services deliver

:21:57.:22:02.

brilliant care, it is this patchwork of service delivery, the postcode

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lottery, the variation. Isn't that decision down to the local NHS

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Trust, in effect? What the Government is saying, tell me if you

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buy what they say, we are distributing the money to the NHS

:22:15.:22:19.

trusts, if they are not pushing that into the right areas, how can that

:22:20.:22:24.

be the Government's bowled? Two things, one, yes, there is some

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extra money available this year the Mental Health Services targeted

:22:31.:22:32.

against certain services, but that is against a backdrop of year the

:22:33.:22:35.

Mental Health Services targeted against certain services, but that

:22:36.:22:40.

is against a backdrop to let against a real pressure against core

:22:41.:22:44.

services over recent years. Second, the money does not come directly to

:22:45.:22:50.

trust, it goes through several hands before it reaches trusts. Some

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commissioners, the hand it goes through, have passed on the money in

:22:54.:22:59.

total. Many have passed some of the money on. Some commissioners have

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said they have got such pressures elsewhere, that big old ones will be

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acute hospitals, A departments, the general culprits that we always

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come second best to, some areas have said some of that money has to be

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siphoned off to support bigger pressures elsewhere. We would say in

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the Cavendish Square Group it is unacceptable. I have heard through

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my collaborative networks nationally that there are some areas, some

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trusts, that have not seen any of that money. What impact will that

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have on people like Kerry? If I can come back to that point, I have been

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doing a lot of campaigning about bed cuts and so forth in the last few

:23:40.:23:43.

years. I have talked to everyone from the Deputy Prime Minister, and

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no one seems to take responsibility for saying, this is how the money

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should be spent. The Government announces these grand initiatives

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but then the money goes through allsorts of acronyms, like Monitor,

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the CCG 's... The Clinical Commissioning Groups. Their argument

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is that local commissioning groups are much better placed to make

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decisions about where the money should be spent locally? Except that

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local commissioning groups are largely made of GPs, and mental

:24:23.:24:28.

health groups have found they do not feel they have the expertise to do

:24:29.:24:32.

that commissioning. The other thing I would say is that obviously

:24:33.:24:36.

services are best locally commissioned with local providers,

:24:37.:24:39.

service users, the public, and, in a sense, everybody would support that,

:24:40.:24:43.

but there has to be some national standards and principles which no

:24:44.:24:49.

service is free to deviate from, so whether that is access to bed in a

:24:50.:24:54.

crisis, waiting times, access to psychosis services if you are young

:24:55.:24:57.

and it is your first episode, so on, so Bob, there has to be some

:24:58.:25:02.

principles and bottom lines. That is why the Government would say they

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have introduced waiting targets, those are the principles and the

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bottom lines. I agree with what you are saying about the waiting times

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targets being a good idea, although there is not enough money to

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implement what they need because services have been cut so

:25:19.:25:22.

desperately badly in the last few years. Since 2012 we have lost about

:25:23.:25:31.

40% of mental health beds. Waiting times, what sort of services do you

:25:32.:25:36.

get when you get there, that will be a big problem as well. I'm

:25:37.:25:40.

incredibly lucky because I had really good support with early

:25:41.:25:43.

intervention and psychosis service, and it turned my life around. Now I

:25:44.:25:48.

am in employment, getting married, things are at awful lot better. But

:25:49.:25:53.

over about half the country those sorts of services have been cut to

:25:54.:25:57.

ribbons. It doesn't even make economic sense, because they save

:25:58.:26:03.

?15 for every ?1 spent, so it shouldn't be a decision that, do we

:26:04.:26:11.

have these or not? Of course there should be excellent early

:26:12.:26:14.

intervention services in every area. It saves lives and it changes

:26:15.:26:20.

lives. This report today, is it a warning to politicians or local

:26:21.:26:24.

commissioning groups, or individual NHS trusts? I think it is a warning

:26:25.:26:31.

to individual NHS trusts to take responsibility for the changes they

:26:32.:26:35.

are making, to make sure they really understand how they are affecting

:26:36.:26:41.

people's lives. Stories like Kerry's motivate is incredibly and

:26:42.:26:44.

we do believe our services change lives and save money. I think one I

:26:45.:26:53.

regret about this report is that it really only largely points at

:26:54.:26:56.

trusts, and of course actually there has been a 40% cut in most local

:26:57.:27:01.

authority spending in recent years, and we heard earlier this week there

:27:02.:27:05.

will be even greater cuts to come. Some of those services are a vital

:27:06.:27:11.

component of keeping people well and helping us into been better in

:27:12.:27:15.

relapse. We all have contracts that are year-to-year, I signed my

:27:16.:27:21.

contract for this year in October when the year began in April,

:27:22.:27:27.

because we could not agree what the funding would be. We need longer

:27:28.:27:33.

term contracts, transparency of decision-making, consensus about the

:27:34.:27:37.

impact there will be. I would like to say one other thing, many of the

:27:38.:27:41.

new wings being implement it, recovery focused approach, it means

:27:42.:27:48.

looking at the person's assets, trying to equip service users

:27:49.:27:53.

together with them to better understand the power play of their

:27:54.:27:56.

illness and how to look after themselves better, how to articulate

:27:57.:28:02.

what works for them. That has an evidence base and it does, in all

:28:03.:28:05.

other aspects of health care, the more we understand our health, the

:28:06.:28:10.

more, if we have an illness, we understand what our choices are, the

:28:11.:28:14.

better the outcome is. But what you cannot do is replace evidence -based

:28:15.:28:20.

treatment with more self-care or peer support. It is both, it is a

:28:21.:28:26.

rich mix of support needed to keep people well, get them back to help,

:28:27.:28:32.

get them enjoying life, make them productive members of society. One

:28:33.:28:36.

last point, the average acute hospital, if it invested more in

:28:37.:28:41.

mental health for people who have complex physical conditions, could

:28:42.:28:46.

save, we believe, up to ?25 million per year. So it is a saving as well

:28:47.:28:51.

as the humane thing to do. Central Government is cutting the money and

:28:52.:28:54.

then the local groups, like the CCGs... The Government said that

:28:55.:29:00.

health service funding has been ring fenced and they have provided a

:29:01.:29:04.

little bit more for Mental Health Services, but they have also asked

:29:05.:29:08.

the NHS to make efficiency savings. That is not true, they stopped doing

:29:09.:29:14.

the survey looking at how much money was being spent on Mental Health

:29:15.:29:18.

Services a year or two ago, so now we actually don't know any more what

:29:19.:29:21.

is being spent. Central Government are putting the money, local

:29:22.:29:26.

commissioning groups and so on are having to make the cuts but they are

:29:27.:29:32.

not responsible for having not enough money to spend in the first

:29:33.:29:35.

place. No-one is taking responsibility, and meanwhile my

:29:36.:29:39.

friends keep dying because they need services that are not there. These

:29:40.:29:43.

are avoidable, preventable deaths of young people and they should not be

:29:44.:29:48.

happening. Thank you very much both before coming on the programme.

:29:49.:29:50.

The Minister responsible for mental health, Alistair Burt told us:

:29:51.:30:17.

Still to come, one of the relatives of one of the victims of the Alps

:30:18.:30:28.

plane crash says they still need questions answered.

:30:29.:30:48.

We can talk now to Courtney Vicar, Becky Watts best friend. Thank you

:30:49.:30:56.

so much for talking to us at this really, really difficult time, we

:30:57.:30:59.

appreciate your time this morning. I wonder if you can tell us and the

:31:00.:31:03.

audience a little bit about Becky, what was she like?

:31:04.:31:07.

She was really into her music and into her fashion. She really liked

:31:08.:31:15.

clothes, bought new clothes all the time and she really liked doing her

:31:16.:31:19.

make-up and stuff and her hair was her most important thing really, her

:31:20.:31:23.

hair. She also loved her dog as well. What kind of a friend was she

:31:24.:31:35.

to you? Oh, she was my, obviously my best friend, she would be there for

:31:36.:31:39.

me when I needed it. If I was sad I knew I could call her and she'd come

:31:40.:31:43.

to mine or I would go to hers if I was feeling sad and the same went

:31:44.:31:49.

for her. I think you last saw her a few days before her death and spoke

:31:50.:31:56.

to her the night before? It was in the day before. I spoke to her on

:31:57.:32:01.

the phone and she was really happy. I was texting her the night before,

:32:02.:32:06.

like, and she was just happy and just her normal self-. Self-. Did

:32:07.:32:13.

she talk to you about Nathan Matthews, what did she say to you

:32:14.:32:17.

about her step brother? That she was kind of scared of him and that he

:32:18.:32:22.

made some comments about killing her in the past, like quite a lot and I

:32:23.:32:28.

think the last of the comments was last year, like at the end of last

:32:29.:32:34.

year, so it was quite recent in respect of February, it was quite

:32:35.:32:38.

recent then. How did you react when she revealed that to you? My opinion

:32:39.:32:47.

of him kind of changed. At first I thought he was just a bit weird but

:32:48.:32:53.

I didn't think he was a bit like evil or anything, but when she told

:32:54.:32:58.

me he was saying these things, it made me scared for her. It just

:32:59.:33:05.

didn't sit right with me what she was saying and how she felt about

:33:06.:33:09.

it. She's not usually scared of much. To say she was scared of him,

:33:10.:33:15.

I was like, whoa, it must be a serious fear.

:33:16.:33:19.

Was she afraid to talk to other people about how she felt about him?

:33:20.:33:28.

I think that she felt like people either wouldn't believe her or that

:33:29.:33:35.

they would go overboard a bit and get angry with him and she really

:33:36.:33:39.

didn't want to cause trouble. I think that is why she didn't say

:33:40.:33:44.

anything to anybody. Did you ant to say anything or tell

:33:45.:33:53.

others? It was really her choice, I didn't want to say something because

:33:54.:33:56.

I didn't want her to get annoyed at me if I said something and she was

:33:57.:34:01.

like "why did you say that? ! " It was for her to say, it was one of

:34:02.:34:05.

those things where it's not my place to say it. Were you able to console

:34:06.:34:18.

her or support her? Well, I assumed, and we both agreed

:34:19.:34:23.

that because he's got a kid, it probably isn't anything serious. I

:34:24.:34:25.

never thought in a million years that would happen and I thought

:34:26.:34:31.

because he had a kid that he might have valued like his time with a kid

:34:32.:34:35.

a bit more than to do something like this.

:34:36.:34:37.

Courtney, thank you so much for talking to us this morning, I real

:34:38.:34:42.

hi appreciate your time, thank you. That's OK. Courtney Bicker, Becky

:34:43.:34:50.

Watts' best friends. Some comments from you: Rob says, absolutely

:34:51.:34:55.

heart-breaking account earlier on your programme from the parents of

:34:56.:35:00.

Becky watts. Paul says, heartbreaking, I don't understand

:35:01.:35:04.

the world and Lawrence says, God rest Becky and help ease the pain of

:35:05.:35:18.

the parents. There's been a bit of grumbling about the Chancellor

:35:19.:35:21.

George Osborne's spending cuts from his own MPs. Little did he expect

:35:22.:35:24.

the Prime Minister to be one of them Norman Smith is with

:35:25.:35:40.

us now. Not usual for a Prime Minister to

:35:41.:35:47.

write to his county council to protest at plans for roughly around

:35:48.:35:53.

?50 million worth of cuts. The cuts will mean, it's thought, maybe cuts

:35:54.:35:58.

to bus services, possibly cuts to day care centres for the eldererly,

:35:59.:36:03.

possibly cuts to library services. So Mr Cameron's penned a letter to

:36:04.:36:08.

his council to say, hang on a second, what are you doing, let's

:36:09.:36:13.

take a lack at some of what he says. He says, I was disappointed at the

:36:14.:36:18.

long list of suggestions to make significant cuts to frontline

:36:19.:36:22.

services. Then he goes on, sort of urging them not to go down this

:36:23.:36:27.

road, saying: I hope the county will move cautiously in setting out its

:36:28.:36:30.

budget plans. And, as a sort of final, I don't

:36:31.:36:34.

know whether it's meant to be helpful or put the squeeze a bit on

:36:35.:36:40.

the council, he says; I would be happy to initiate further dialogue

:36:41.:36:44.

with asth advisers in the Number 10 policy unit. That prompted a reply

:36:45.:36:51.

from the council leader, which I've got here, a six-page reply. He's

:36:52.:36:56.

gone through all Mr Cameron's complaints point-by-point trying to

:36:57.:36:59.

rebut them but starts with a zinger when he says, to the council leader,

:37:00.:37:05.

to D Cameron, "I along with many councillors worked hard to assist

:37:06.:37:07.

you in achieving a Conservative majority. " That is his opening

:37:08.:37:13.

line. He says "I cannot accept your description of a drop in funding of

:37:14.:37:18.

?72 million as a slight fall" he signs off "I hope that clarifies our

:37:19.:37:25.

position". So I take it he's not hugely amused by the PM's

:37:26.:37:29.

intervention. When asked about relations between the two last week

:37:30.:37:33.

he was saying, no, we get on timeth fine. Have alike at this. It's like

:37:34.:37:37.

all relationships. Sometimes off bits of tension, it's always going

:37:38.:37:41.

to be difficult at some stage, yesterday I was at Number 10 and we

:37:42.:37:45.

had a civil conversation. There's a good relationship there, but like

:37:46.:37:48.

all relationships, sometimes a bit of tension.

:37:49.:37:53.

Not surprisingly, Vic, as you can imagine, MPs are all saying, hang on

:37:54.:37:58.

a second, this is hypocrisy, it's David Cameron's Government who're

:37:59.:38:01.

imposing this cut, it's a bit rich for him to be complaining. That's

:38:02.:38:05.

been the line being pushed by the Labour Party. This was one of the

:38:06.:38:16.

spokesman this morning. Council leaders are finding health cuts. It

:38:17.:38:19.

seems extraordinary the Prime Minister didn't appreciate the scale

:38:20.:38:22.

of the cuts that hit his own council. When you move into the

:38:23.:38:27.

Metropolitan areas, the City and northern councils, because of the

:38:28.:38:30.

way the funding formula works, they are happy to find even deeper cuts.

:38:31.:38:35.

This has gone in another direction all together. Labour maybe are

:38:36.:38:39.

trying to milk it. They have write tonne the Cabinet Secretary to

:38:40.:38:42.

complain about Mr Cameron's behaviour and how they say it's a

:38:43.:38:46.

breach of rules around the Ministerial Code of Conduct. Their

:38:47.:38:51.

argument being that by inviting the council boss into Number 10 to have

:38:52.:38:56.

a chat with the Number Ten policy union, Mr Cameron is blurring the

:38:57.:39:00.

lines between his Prime Ministerial powers and his job as a local MP. I

:39:01.:39:08.

wonder if he'll have to extend that invitation to all council leaders

:39:09.:39:11.

then to discuss how cuts may be rolled out? I think the short answer

:39:12.:39:17.

is no, but what I think about this is, it's kind of a double edged

:39:18.:39:23.

sword to have the PM in your constituency because at one level

:39:24.:39:26.

it's great. If you are lobbying for something and want it done, you can

:39:27.:39:31.

get the PM on your side, that is a huge boost to your prospects of

:39:32.:39:34.

convincing the Treasury to stump up the cash. However, if the PM is not

:39:35.:39:40.

happy about what you are doing, it's a major pain in thederier because

:39:41.:39:43.

you have the Downing Street machine saying, just think twice about that,

:39:44.:39:47.

so I guess it's a double edged sword having Mr Cameron as one of your

:39:48.:39:49.

constituents. Thank you very much.

:39:50.:39:52.

He's one of the most famous men on the planet, but this morning George

:39:53.:39:58.

Clooney will swap the film set for a cafe for homeless people in Glasgow.

:39:59.:40:01.

Here is Carol. I haven't seen you since your Strictly journey was

:40:02.:40:14.

brought to a close. How was it? Brilliant. Such good fun. To start

:40:15.:40:18.

with I found it hard then grew to love it. I think I went as far as I

:40:19.:40:23.

could but do it, it's amazing! Was there anything you learnt about

:40:24.:40:27.

yourself that you didn't know before you went through all of that? Yes, I

:40:28.:40:31.

am brave than I thought I was. Really, that's fantastic! Took me so

:40:32.:40:36.

out of my comfort zone, every single Saturday I was dying of nerves but

:40:37.:40:39.

you had to go for it, push yourself in there and get on with it, there

:40:40.:40:45.

was no choice. Week one I did get stage fright, I was overwhelmed by

:40:46.:40:48.

it and if I could have run away from that dance floor, I would have been

:40:49.:40:52.

in the next taxi, but you had to stay and go through with it. You

:40:53.:40:55.

could have done a runner, that would have been a story! Was it a bird,

:40:56.:41:01.

was it a plane, no it was corkwood. How is it looking weather-wise?

:41:02.:41:07.

It's a bit lively today for some. We have got Storm Abigail approaching.

:41:08.:41:11.

Tonight is when we'll feel the effects of it in north and west

:41:12.:41:17.

Scotland where we could have gusts of up to 90mph. They could lead to

:41:18.:41:22.

travel disrun Australian and power cuts. Abigail is a deep area of low

:41:23.:41:29.

pressure. Look at the isobars, man! Even I know that's windy. I am so

:41:30.:41:33.

impressed but you are absolutely right.

:41:34.:41:36.

In England an Wales, it's going to be windy tonight and also first

:41:37.:41:40.

thing tomorrow. This little front here is going to cross to bring some

:41:41.:41:43.

rain again tonight and tomorrow morning. But the main thrust of the

:41:44.:41:47.

action is going to be across the north and west of Scotland where we

:41:48.:41:50.

have the tightest squeeze. That is where we'll have the gusts later

:41:51.:41:56.

this evening and tonight over 80 or 90mph. A lot to get in, so I'll

:41:57.:42:01.

carry on but it's great to see you. So good to have you back on our

:42:02.:42:05.

programme, never mind Strictly! See you later.

:42:06.:42:10.

En Today we have a quiet start to the day. There is some fog around

:42:11.:42:17.

which will lift. We have got some spots of rain coming in across from

:42:18.:42:20.

southern counties in across the south-west and Wales. Through the

:42:21.:42:24.

morning, the rain will gather across Northern Ireland, some will be heavy

:42:25.:42:27.

and the wind will strengthen. You can see the arrows are on, looking

:42:28.:42:32.

at gusts in the west of about 50-55mph. Push across central and

:42:33.:42:36.

eastern parts, the wind will be starting to pick up but it will be

:42:37.:42:42.

largely dry for much of the day. Looking at variable amounts of

:42:43.:42:45.

cloud, bright and sunny spells as well but patchy rain coming in

:42:46.:42:49.

across the south coast. We'll see some of that getting into Wales. We

:42:50.:42:57.

saw the wind arrows across the Irish Sea, close to the Irish Sea or areas

:42:58.:43:03.

adjacent will mean gusts of up to 55mph. The rain advances in Northern

:43:04.:43:08.

Ireland. Showers and winds inland of 15mph, maybe a little more. The wind

:43:09.:43:19.

will be the main feature, particularly through the evening and

:43:20.:43:26.

tonight. The main areas to have the strong gusts are Northern Isles and

:43:27.:43:30.

the Outer Hebrides. The Met Office has issued amber weather warnings

:43:31.:43:36.

which means be prepared, it could lead to some disruption. We'll see

:43:37.:43:41.

some snow on the mountain tops, lying at about 400 metres at lower

:43:42.:43:49.

levels. Do remember, as we head on through

:43:50.:43:53.

to tomorrow, this colder air pushes across the whole of the UK, so

:43:54.:43:58.

tomorrow you'll notice a real difference in the feel of the

:43:59.:44:01.

weather. It will feel much colder. Tomorrow too still a windy start to

:44:02.:44:05.

the day. The winds only very slowly abating. There'll be a lot of

:44:06.:44:09.

showers around, some will be heavy and thundery with some hail thrown

:44:10.:44:12.

in there for good measure and temperature-wise, we are looking at

:44:13.:44:15.

values between about six and 12. When you add on the elements, it

:44:16.:44:20.

will feel much colder, one in Aberdeen is how it will feel. More

:44:21.:44:23.

like eight in London. So a cold feel. That's not unusual

:44:24.:44:28.

for this stage in November but it's a real change compared to what we

:44:29.:44:32.

have been used to. From Friday into Saturday, we have got the remnants

:44:33.:44:44.

of Hurricane Kate coming our way. Over the weekend, we could see

:44:45.:44:49.

exceptional amounts of rainfall, particular aacross north-west

:44:50.:44:51.

England and north-west Wales and I'll keep you posted about that

:44:52.:44:52.

tomorrow. Hello, it's Thursday,

:44:53.:44:58.

it's just after 10am. I'm Victoria Derbyshire, welcome to

:44:59.:45:00.

the programme if you've just joined Murdered by her step-brother who

:45:01.:45:03.

acted out sick fantasies after watching online pornography - Becky

:45:04.:45:09.

Watts was just 16 when she was killed by the man she grew up with.

:45:10.:45:12.

One of her best friends tells us she It didn't sit right with me what she

:45:13.:45:21.

said about how she felt about him. She was scared and she's not usually

:45:22.:45:27.

scared of much. To say she was scared of him, I was like, it must

:45:28.:45:28.

be a serious fear. Also coming up: We'll be discussing

:45:29.:45:33.

the best ways to cope with the menopause as a new

:45:34.:45:36.

report says women and doctors have "lost confidence"

:45:37.:45:39.

in hormone replacement therapy. George Clooney is in Edinburgh

:45:40.:45:52.

opening a cafe for homeless people and we'll be live there later on.

:45:53.:46:03.

Standards of care for patients with mental illness in England could be

:46:04.:46:07.

at risk from cost-cutting, according to a report from

:46:08.:46:10.

The King's Fund is warning that 40% of mental health trusts are

:46:11.:46:13.

facing budget cuts, so are reducing staff and hospital beds.

:46:14.:46:17.

It also claims that many are introducing cheaper,

:46:18.:46:20.

No-one is really taking responsibility, and meanwhile my

:46:21.:46:31.

friends keep dying because they need services that are not there, and

:46:32.:46:36.

these are avoidable, preventable deaths of young people, and they

:46:37.:46:38.

should not be happening. Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi

:46:39.:46:43.

will touch down this morning It's the first visit of an Indian

:46:44.:46:45.

Prime Minister in almost a decade. Later he will make an address in

:46:46.:46:53.

parliament and there will be a fly-past from the red arrows. But he

:46:54.:46:57.

is a controversial figure, accused by opponents of having an

:46:58.:46:58.

authoritarian agenda. African and EU leaders will sign

:46:59.:47:00.

a deal today that's designed to reduce the number of migrants making

:47:01.:47:03.

their way to Europe. In the past hour, they have approved

:47:04.:47:17.

a fund of ?1.3 billion to try to stop young people from leaving.

:47:18.:47:21.

A nurse who contracted Ebola while working in Sierra Leone has

:47:22.:47:23.

been declared free of the virus and taken out of isolation.

:47:24.:47:26.

Pauline Cafferkey was readmitted to the specialist unit at the

:47:27.:47:28.

Royal Free in London last month after falling

:47:29.:47:30.

She's now been transferred to a hospital in Glasgow to continue

:47:31.:47:34.

Fifa has released the names of the five candidates who will

:47:35.:47:37.

compete to replace Sepp Blatter as the president

:47:38.:47:39.

Controversial figure and one-time race favourite Michel Platini did

:47:40.:47:44.

not make the list, while Musa Hassan Bility was also not included.

:47:45.:47:51.

Apple has apologised to six black schoolboys who were asked to leave

:47:52.:47:54.

Footage of the incident in Melbourne

:47:55.:48:04.

sparked a social media outcry.

:48:05.:48:06.

A staff member can be heard saying security are concerned that

:48:07.:48:08.

We're worried about your present in our store, we are worried you might

:48:09.:48:16.

steal something. Why would we steal something?! End of discussion...

:48:17.:48:21.

The boy who posted it on Facebook labelled it 'simply racism'.

:48:22.:48:24.

The store manager has now said sorry to the boys and their headteacher.

:48:25.:48:27.

One of the boys involved has accepted the apology.

:48:28.:48:32.

Let's catch up with all the sport now -

:48:33.:48:37.

Russian President Vladimir Putin says the country must carry out

:48:38.:48:46.

its own inquiry into the World Anti-Doping Agency's allegations of

:48:47.:48:49.

Speaking for the first time since the publication of Wada's

:48:50.:48:54.

strong condemnation, Vladimir Putin ordered co-operation with the

:48:55.:48:56.

TRANSLATION: It is necessary to hold our own internal investigation and

:48:57.:49:05.

provide maximum open, and I would like to stress this, open

:49:06.:49:10.

professional cooperation with international anti-doping agencies.

:49:11.:49:13.

I agree this is not only a Russian problem but if our foreign

:49:14.:49:15.

colleagues have questions about them, they have to be answered, too,

:49:16.:49:20.

and that has to be done in open, professional and conscientious

:49:21.:49:22.

cooperation with our colleagues. After Stuart Lancaster stepped

:49:23.:49:25.

down as the head coach of England's Rugby Union side, all thoughts have

:49:26.:49:27.

immediately been directed towards his successor and the person who'll

:49:28.:49:30.

ultimately be responsible for breathing new life into a team

:49:31.:49:32.

which did nothing but disappoint Our rugby reporter Chris

:49:33.:49:35.

Jones joins me now. A difficult time for England and

:49:36.:49:48.

Stuart Lancaster but who are the candidates to replace him?

:49:49.:49:53.

Two things that are no object are a nationality and money. The RFU and

:49:54.:49:57.

chief executive Ian Ritchie have made it clear they will scour the

:49:58.:50:02.

world for a global big hitter, someone steeped in international

:50:03.:50:05.

rugby experience. It is unlikely it will be an Englishman because the

:50:06.:50:09.

directors of rugby at the premiership clubs do not have that

:50:10.:50:12.

international experience, so we are looking at names like Jake White,

:50:13.:50:17.

who won the 2007 World Cup in South Africa. He would rip the RFU's arm

:50:18.:50:23.

off if they offered the job. Eddie Jones did wonders with Japan at the

:50:24.:50:28.

recent World Cup, he has huge experience going back to his with

:50:29.:50:34.

Australia. Michael Jack has transformed Australian rugby over

:50:35.:50:37.

the last year, but could he be prised away from that job and back

:50:38.:50:41.

to the Northern is the? Wayne Smith has huge backing but has confirmed

:50:42.:50:46.

to the BBC he wants to take a sabbatical, could the RFU changed

:50:47.:50:50.

his mind or bring him in further down the line? Joe Schmidt, Warren

:50:51.:50:57.

Gatland, a huge number of candidates because the RFU have said no money

:50:58.:51:01.

and nationality is an object for this, which means on one hand

:51:02.:51:05.

everyone is a candidate, and on the other hand no-one is because the

:51:06.:51:09.

best, big hitting names are in jobs at the moment.

:51:10.:51:11.

Sir Clive Woodward, the World Cup would encourage, thinks the RFU and

:51:12.:51:15.

all of rugby needs a structural change. Is this about more than the

:51:16.:51:19.

coach? It is a good point, he is pointing

:51:20.:51:24.

the finger at the RFU chief executive Ian. He was about who

:51:25.:51:28.

appointed Ian Lancaster in the first place, he gave him increased power

:51:29.:51:32.

was over the English game, a new contract grew to 2019 and beyond,

:51:33.:51:37.

and now Ritchie is the man to lead the recruitment process all over

:51:38.:51:43.

again, so apply the Woodward saying that why should he get another

:51:44.:51:47.

chance? He says there should be a bigger between the Chief Executive

:51:48.:51:50.

and head coach, a performance director, someone for the head coach

:51:51.:51:55.

to lean on and confide in. We should have a caveat saying that Sir Clive

:51:56.:51:58.

Woodward feels he is the man for the job since he is using his Daily Mail

:51:59.:52:02.

column as a way of putting in his job application. It does not mean

:52:03.:52:06.

they are not valid points, but the RFU would argue that the head coach

:52:07.:52:10.

needs to have total authority and should not have the answer to

:52:11.:52:13.

anyone. It will be fascinating to see how things go over the next few

:52:14.:52:15.

weeks. OK, thanks for joining us.

:52:16.:52:19.

Now to a truly inspiring story - Serbian basketball player

:52:20.:52:21.

Natasha Kovacevic has returned to the professional game two years

:52:22.:52:27.

after losing her leg in a car accident.

:52:28.:52:33.

Kovacevic was seen as one of her country's most promising

:52:34.:52:35.

players when the accident happened in September 2013.

:52:36.:52:42.

Now, with the aid of prosthesis, she is believed to be the first

:52:43.:52:45.

disabled European basketball player to play in a professional team.

:52:46.:52:47.

She scored five points for her new side Red Star Belgrade last night.

:52:48.:52:50.

That is all the sport for now, I will have a recap of the headlines

:52:51.:52:53.

at about 10:30am. Hello, thank you

:52:54.:52:54.

for joining us this morning. Welcome to the programme

:52:55.:52:56.

if you've just joined us, we're on BBC Two and the BBC News

:52:57.:52:58.

Channel until 11am this morning. Your contributions to this programme

:52:59.:53:01.

and your expertise really is key. We will talk about hormone

:53:02.:53:11.

replacement therapy later, so if you have experienced that, maybe do did

:53:12.:53:14.

not take it because of the associated cancer risks, which is

:53:15.:53:17.

why it is in the news again today, then let me know.

:53:18.:53:24.

And of course you can watch the programme online wherever you

:53:25.:53:26.

are via the BBC News app or our website, bbc.co.uk/victoria,

:53:27.:53:29.

and you can also subscribe to all our features on the news app

:53:30.:53:32.

by going to 'add topics' and searching 'Victoria Derbyshire'.

:53:33.:53:34.

We've been talking this morning about the murder of Becky Watts

:53:35.:53:37.

and what motivated her stepbrother and his girlfriend to kill

:53:38.:53:39.

Becky's best friend has told us that the teenager was scared of

:53:40.:53:48.

Nathan Matthews, but she didn't want to tell anyone about her fears.

:53:49.:53:57.

Yesterday, Matthews was found guilty of murdering Becky Watts during

:53:58.:54:00.

His girlfriend Shauna Hoare was convicted of manslaughter

:54:01.:54:03.

In a police interview recorded in March, Nathan Matthews claimed

:54:04.:54:07.

it was an accident and he hadn't meant to kill his step-sister.

:54:08.:54:11.

He said he just wanted to scare her, as he was upset with how she was

:54:12.:54:18.

He said she'd leave things on the floor which would trip her up.

:54:19.:54:25.

We're going to play you the beginning of that disturbing

:54:26.:54:27.

Nathan, can you give us your full name?

:54:28.:54:30.

Perhaps if I just flag up for the recording what this

:54:31.:54:41.

It is about the kidnap and murder of Becky Watts.

:54:42.:54:45.

Obviously I don't want that to be read to someone.

:54:46.:54:50.

I don't want to read this out in full again, Nathan,

:54:51.:55:01.

but what I wanted to do was get some more detail from you about things

:55:02.:55:05.

Later, when he appeared in court, it came out that he had been watching

:55:06.:55:52.

pornography. Becky Watts' father and Nathan Bodman, perhaps been speaking

:55:53.:55:58.

to the BBC. We could not take it in, we could

:55:59.:56:02.

not believe it. Body parts had been found at the address. We just wanted

:56:03.:56:10.

to die. Our whole family, everything we knew had been ripped away from

:56:11.:56:22.

us. And when they told you what had happened? I was sitting on the bed,

:56:23.:56:27.

rocking violently backwards and forwards, screaming that I wanted to

:56:28.:56:30.

kill him. The police were not sure if I would do any harm to Angie, but

:56:31.:56:35.

they don't know how strong our relationship is. I had just been

:56:36.:56:38.

told that might daughter had been murdered, butchered. Her body parts

:56:39.:56:43.

found in suitcases and bags in a garden shed. I was just devastated.

:56:44.:56:54.

Anje just went into shock. You could see it. I just couldn't accept it.

:56:55.:57:06.

Your son, my daughter, wasn't it? Tell us about Nathan? A loving son,

:57:07.:57:13.

I would have described him as. He has never lie to me. Always been

:57:14.:57:19.

open and honest with me. I love to Mikey was my own son. Don't now, I

:57:20.:57:27.

hate him. -- I loved him like he was my own son. Nathan's girlfriend

:57:28.:57:31.

Shauna Hoare came to the family six years ago. She always put us up

:57:32.:57:35.

across as timid and Mel C. She always used to get her own way,

:57:36.:57:42.

though. I didn't like, personally. Couldn't put my finger on it but

:57:43.:57:46.

there was something off about her, never really believed in Herbert

:57:47.:57:49.

became more accepting of her and relaxed a little bit, even loved her

:57:50.:57:55.

like a daughter, didn't I, in the end? Two years earlier Nathan was

:57:56.:58:00.

best man, Becky and Sean were bridesmaids, a united family as

:58:01.:58:04.

Darren and Angie got married. They say the rubble, despite this

:58:05.:58:08.

incredible strain. My love for her is immense, it really is,

:58:09.:58:15.

unwavering. I have lost a couple of them as a family because I won't

:58:16.:58:22.

turn on her. I her, never. If this doesn't break is up, nothing will --

:58:23.:58:30.

I won't desert her, never. Becky was murdered here, in her bedroom. I

:58:31.:58:34.

have put her bedroom back of it was. It was never usually as tidy as

:58:35.:58:39.

this, I assure you, but this is how she likes it. I don't really want to

:58:40.:58:44.

leave here, because Becky lived here. This is the only how she ever

:58:45.:58:49.

lived in. It has now been nine months since Becky died. I just miss

:58:50.:58:56.

her, I was she was still here. I live everything, even the

:58:57.:59:01.

arguments. Yes. 10pm every night I expect the door to go, how to come

:59:02.:59:08.

through, cook us some tea, dad! But it never does. Every night I still

:59:09.:59:13.

look out, I listen out for her. It's ridiculous, she has been gone months

:59:14.:59:17.

now. And yet I still listen out for it.

:59:18.:59:22.

Let's talk about Doctor John Ed Barlow, a criminologist at

:59:23.:59:25.

Birmingham University, and in a moment we will speak to Liz

:59:26.:59:30.

Longhurst whose daughter, Jane, was murdered by a man obsessed with

:59:31.:59:33.

violent pornography. He was jailed for life in 2004. Doctor Bala, how

:59:34.:59:40.

would you describe the relationship as you know it between Shauna Hoare

:59:41.:59:45.

and Nathan Matthews? When we have come offending partnerships or

:59:46.:59:49.

relationships like Sean and Nathan, it is often the case that people

:59:50.:59:53.

draw upon notions such as evil or what is known as a map and a shared

:59:54.:00:00.

by two, but the relationship between Shauna and Nathan was more

:00:01.:00:06.

complicated. Shauna suggested during the testimony and trial that she

:00:07.:00:09.

experienced violence and control at the hands of make them throughout

:00:10.:00:12.

the relationship and talked extensively about this during the

:00:13.:00:16.

trial. Whilst this shouldn't be used as a technique to diminish her

:00:17.:00:19.

responsibility or to remove her sense of choice, to gain a more

:00:20.:00:25.

nuanced understanding of her co-offending relationship and her

:00:26.:00:28.

personal relationship with Nathan, we need to look at the whole

:00:29.:00:31.

relationship and how that may have influenced her decision to offend.

:00:32.:00:37.

She may have claimed those things during the trial but the police said

:00:38.:00:40.

yesterday she was calculate it, she was cold-blooded?

:00:41.:00:45.

Undoubtedly in these cases it's very difficult to say what is and what

:00:46.:00:52.

isn't the truth. Within this type of relationship, particularly if

:00:53.:00:54.

characterised by violence and control throughout the whole

:00:55.:00:58.

relationship, that needs to be the focus, rather than explicitly

:00:59.:01:01.

focussing on her role in the offending, it's also what led to

:01:02.:01:05.

that. In these co-offending relationships where there is

:01:06.:01:09.

violence or control, that should be considered as a potential

:01:10.:01:13.

influencing factor. You will know that Becky watts' father suggested

:01:14.:01:18.

that Hoares and Matthews could have been the next Rose and Fred West

:01:19.:01:22.

west, what do you think about that? There is a tendency within these

:01:23.:01:30.

co-offending offences to draw upon coexisting examples such as Rose and

:01:31.:01:36.

Fred West west or Myra Hindley and on Brady. These went on for a time

:01:37.:01:42.

though, and I would argue that these were not

:01:43.:01:43.

though, and I would argue that these were not criminal master minds It

:01:44.:01:46.

was more a case of power and control, particularly on the part of

:01:47.:01:50.

Nathan. OK, I'll come back to you in a moment, I want to talk to Liz

:01:51.:01:59.

Longhurst whose daughter was murdered by a man obsessed with

:02:00.:02:04.

online pornography. I wonder if you believe your daughter's death was

:02:05.:02:08.

preventible? Well, I think it probably was knowing what we know

:02:09.:02:14.

now but I think then I didn't. Graham Coutts was such a... He was

:02:15.:02:26.

extremely mazible. Fortunately I'm glad to say I never met him or his

:02:27.:02:32.

partner. His partner was expecting their twins so it's horrible,

:02:33.:02:39.

complete hi horrible. And you discovered later that he was

:02:40.:02:44.

obsessed with violent pornography, he had been viewing it online. Do

:02:45.:02:50.

you think that is relevant? Absolutely it is. At that time, one

:02:51.:03:01.

of Reading's MPs, Martin Salter, he took the lead on this and used me as

:03:02.:03:05.

a kind of figurehead - I don't think I had very much to do with the

:03:06.:03:11.

formation of the law - but I absolutely agreed with it that it

:03:12.:03:15.

should go ahead. Of course, it did, but the trouble is, the law's not

:03:16.:03:20.

that been used, that particular law, very much. A law that bans the

:03:21.:03:26.

ownership of extreme pornography? Indeed. But hasn't been used? It has

:03:27.:03:33.

but hardly at all. I think I can only think of probably a handful of

:03:34.:03:39.

occasions when it's been used. Do you think that search engines should

:03:40.:03:43.

take responsibility for trying to block that kind of material? Well, I

:03:44.:03:46.

certainly think they should but I don't think they do. I don't know

:03:47.:03:52.

what you think, Victoria. Well, they don't at the moment and always push

:03:53.:03:55.

back on that one and there's the argument about the global scale of

:03:56.:03:59.

it, how could you possibly kind of police that or enforce it. I think

:04:00.:04:04.

the thing is, we are all very sociable creatures aren't we, and so

:04:05.:04:15.

therefore we tend to sort of be friends with people who think as we

:04:16.:04:21.

do and I think that they should just take far more responsibility than

:04:22.:04:24.

they do. And Dr Barlow, as a criminologist,

:04:25.:04:29.

can I ask you about your views, the evidence that you've looked at, of

:04:30.:04:35.

the link between viewing violent pornography and then actually

:04:36.:04:38.

carrying that out in reality? Yes, with these kind of things,

:04:39.:04:43.

particularly thinking about violent pornography, whilst this would have

:04:44.:04:46.

been an influencing factor, it's very, very difficult to make a

:04:47.:04:51.

causing effect of relationships. In the case of Nathan, I believe it was

:04:52.:04:55.

much more about him wanting power and control, both within the context

:04:56.:04:59.

of offending but also within other relationships in his life as well. I

:05:00.:05:05.

think that perhaps came hand in hand with the sexual fantasy that would

:05:06.:05:08.

have come from the violent pornography. Do you mean power and

:05:09.:05:12.

control over Becky watts in particular or anybody whom he

:05:13.:05:15.

happened to alight upon? I think particularly with Becky. He talked

:05:16.:05:20.

in detail during the trial but also before in the text message exchanges

:05:21.:05:27.

we saw about his hate for Becky and that he obviously investigate

:05:28.:05:33.

envious and jealous of Becky, particularly with her relationship

:05:34.:05:36.

with other members of the family. It was power over Becky but also about

:05:37.:05:41.

other relationships generally within her family as well. In terms of your

:05:42.:05:47.

experience as a criminologist, where does this case fit, if I can put it

:05:48.:05:52.

like that? Actually, this kind of case is very rare. This is what

:05:53.:05:59.

criminologists called siblicide, where the perpetrator is the step or

:06:00.:06:03.

full brother or sister of the victim. This is very rare in

:06:04.:06:09.

reality, particularly on this level, this horrific and heinous crime that

:06:10.:06:12.

was committed within the context of Becky watts. So actually, even

:06:13.:06:17.

though Becky was in many ways the typical victim as a young female,

:06:18.:06:22.

the kind of crime that Nathan committed and the murder, the extent

:06:23.:06:27.

of the murder he committed, was much more common of an intimate partner

:06:28.:06:33.

relationship, rather than a sibling relationship. Thank you both very

:06:34.:06:38.

much for coming on the programme. Very nice to meet you.

:06:39.:06:45.

Nice to have met you and thank you. Let's talk about the migrant crisis.

:06:46.:06:50.

Still to come before 11; African and EU leaders have signed a deal

:06:51.:06:53.

designed to reduce the number of migrants making their way to Europe.

:06:54.:06:56.

?1.3 billion will be used to improve conditions in the African countries

:06:57.:06:59.

Our correspondent Gavin Lee is in Malta where the leaders are meeting.

:07:00.:07:04.

What have they been discussing this morning and what have they decided?

:07:05.:07:12.

Huge meeting, Victoria, 60 world leaders, 25 from Europe, 35 from

:07:13.:07:18.

Africa, the European leaders here at the Mediterranean conference centre

:07:19.:07:22.

in this scenic resort in the capital here. They are lined up one by one

:07:23.:07:27.

to sign a piece of paper which is effectively the centrepiece of this

:07:28.:07:32.

summit, a fund for African Nations of money, significant amount from

:07:33.:07:36.

the European Commission, ?1.8 billion euros. Jean-Claude Juncker

:07:37.:07:41.

asked in the past few days European nations to pledge what they could in

:07:42.:07:44.

return for African countries trying to stem the flow of their citizens

:07:45.:07:48.

facing the journey of land and sea, risking their lives to get to

:07:49.:07:52.

Europe. We have had today an announcement from 25 European

:07:53.:07:55.

countries, including Britain 3 million euros offered. It's reached

:07:56.:08:00.

half the target, some decided, Greece, Cyprus, Croatia, not to get

:08:01.:08:03.

involved at all, they were distrustful of where the money may

:08:04.:08:06.

go, but it's interesting from the point of view of the money being

:08:07.:08:09.

raised, there is a belief that Africa can actually do something

:08:10.:08:13.

about it collectively. I should give you a sense of what's being asked in

:08:14.:08:18.

return from African Nations. This is the second day of talks and there is

:08:19.:08:22.

a big emphasis from African countries, forgot just to talk hard

:08:23.:08:26.

cash but also to increase legal migration routes. I was talking to

:08:27.:08:32.

Senegalese governments in the past two days and they have said what

:08:33.:08:36.

about trading deals, education, chances for students, nurses,

:08:37.:08:40.

trained researchers. So that will be part of negotiations and, think

:08:41.:08:43.

about it as well, it's pretty specific, we are talking about the

:08:44.:08:46.

African part of this problem with migration for Europe, the idea of a

:08:47.:08:51.

much bigger flow from Turkey into Greece, that is for another date I'm

:08:52.:08:55.

told by the European Council. It's specific small steps at a time. Do

:08:56.:08:59.

you have a bit more detail, Gavin, on what this massive amount of money

:09:00.:09:03.

will be spent on? I mean it's got to be jobs in the end, hasn't it, if

:09:04.:09:08.

most people in parts of Africa are moving across the continent towards

:09:09.:09:12.

the continent of Europe for work? Yes. Let me give you an example of

:09:13.:09:19.

Britain's contribution. They have put 3 million euros to the trust

:09:20.:09:27.

fund, just over ?2 billion, a separate donation of ?25 million of

:09:28.:09:30.

taxpayers' money for Ethiopia. They have had a huge surge of migration

:09:31.:09:37.

people leaving in the country from just under 400,000 to just under a

:09:38.:09:41.

million this year to try to increase developments there. Money to the

:09:42.:09:46.

whole region. So Mali and certainly around the West of Africa as well,

:09:47.:09:50.

having humanitarian projects to help immediate aid relief. For Somalia

:09:51.:09:56.

too there is a big jobs prospect. David Cameron says it will create

:09:57.:10:00.

9,000 jobs so it's sporadic siphoned off areas. You have got to the core

:10:01.:10:04.

of this though, there are a lot of leaders. This summit have pledged a

:10:05.:10:09.

minimum amount and they have matched what other leaders have done, they

:10:10.:10:13.

won't go further until they can see proof of the money being spent and

:10:14.:10:18.

we see the return rate of the asylum seekers as economic migrants,

:10:19.:10:22.

something like 40% of those immigrants have been returned, no

:10:23.:10:25.

more than that, that rate's got to increase before other nations decide

:10:26.:10:28.

to pledge any more money. Thank you very much very much Gavin.

:10:29.:10:41.

Coming up, we are going to see George Clooney prepare to make

:10:42.:10:47.

sandwiches at a cafe in Scotland. Breaking news to bring you from our

:10:48.:10:51.

health editor, hue PIP who says the number of patients stuck in hospital

:10:52.:10:55.

beds in England because their discharge was delayed was at a

:10:56.:11:04.

record high in September -- hue PIP. -- Hugh Pym.

:11:05.:11:11.

Pressure on social services because of falling budgets has been blamed

:11:12.:11:15.

by many for the increase in the number of patients delayed from

:11:16.:11:18.

being discharged. Now, the Indian Prime Minister, that

:11:19.:11:23.

Rennes diploma Modi has arrived in Britain for a three-day visit

:11:24.:11:32.

expected to secure trade deals worth billions -- Narendra mow di.

:11:33.:11:37.

Christian Fraser, what is he going to do? Out comes the red carpet

:11:38.:11:51.

again, we have had Xi Jin ping and the fastest growing economy's Prime

:11:52.:11:56.

Minister, so strategicically important to British Trade

:11:57.:11:58.

Industry. There is a feeling when you read the newspapers that there

:11:59.:12:02.

is unrequited love there, that's the headline in the Financial Times, the

:12:03.:12:06.

idea that Britain is down on bended knee with the flowers for India, yet

:12:07.:12:10.

India in return's been this aloof lover. Narendra mow di's taken 18

:12:11.:12:17.

months to come here, he's been to 27 countries before Britain. The

:12:18.:12:20.

Government can point to the obstacle of the general election but there is

:12:21.:12:23.

a feeling that there is untapped potential in this relationship. The

:12:24.:12:27.

red carpet being rolled out yet again. Not a full state visit but

:12:28.:12:32.

you will recognise there are many similarities to the XI Jin Ping

:12:33.:12:42.

visit. He'll lunch with the Queen tomorrow, they'll go via the statute

:12:43.:12:52.

of Gandhi on the way to a speech to a joint session of the House and,

:12:53.:12:58.

according to Keith Vaz today, it's the first time an Indian Prime

:12:59.:13:01.

Minister's addressed the Parliament. So a landmark event in that sense.

:13:02.:13:06.

Tomorrow, I suppose the most important point of the visit for Mr

:13:07.:13:10.

Mow di, that is this huge political rally that they are going to have at

:13:11.:13:15.

Wembley. Around 70,000 Indians bust in from all around the country to

:13:16.:13:20.

mark the final day of Divali, the Indian Festival of Light -- Modi.

:13:21.:13:27.

Thank you very much. Thanks for joining us. Still to come

:13:28.:13:37.

before 11, claims that women and doctors have lost confidence in HRT

:13:38.:13:40.

as a possible treatment for the men pause because of the associated

:13:41.:13:44.

cancer risk. We'll talk about that, I have some messages from you as

:13:45.:13:48.

well who've been taking HRT. Also, the father of one of the British

:13:49.:13:54.

victims of the Germanwings plane crash caused by Andreas Lubitz

:13:55.:14:01.

deliberately crashed the plane into the Alps, the families still need

:14:02.:14:09.

answers. African and EU leaders have approved

:14:10.:14:16.

and signed off on a ?1.3 billion fund to reduce the migrants heading

:14:17.:14:19.

to Europe as a result of a special migration summit being held in Malta

:14:20.:14:22.

which continues today. Despite the fund, the President of the EU

:14:23.:14:25.

commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, has said he wants to see member states

:14:26.:14:34.

making further contributions. Indian's Prime Minister, Narendra

:14:35.:14:38.

mow dibegins a three-day visit today, the first visit of an Indian

:14:39.:14:43.

PM in almost a decade. He'll make an address in Parliament later and

:14:44.:14:47.

there'll be a fly-past by the Red Arrows. He's accused by some of

:14:48.:14:53.

having an authoritarian agenda. Mental care patients could be at

:14:54.:14:58.

risk of cost cutting according to an influential think-tank. The King's

:14:59.:15:03.

Fund warns 40% of Health Trusts are facing budget cuts so are reducing

:15:04.:15:07.

staff and hospital beds. It claims many are introducing cheaper,

:15:08.:15:12.

untested self-help services. No-one's really taking

:15:13.:15:16.

responsibility and meanwhile my friends keep dying because they need

:15:17.:15:20.

services that aren't there, and these are avoidable, preventible

:15:21.:15:23.

deaths of young people and this should not be happening.

:15:24.:15:26.

A nurse who contracted Ebola while working in Sierra Leone has

:15:27.:15:29.

been declared free of the virus and taken out of isolation.

:15:30.:15:32.

Pauline Cafferkey was readmitted to the specialist unit at the

:15:33.:15:34.

Royal Free in London last month after falling

:15:35.:15:36.

She's now been transferred to a hospital in Glasgow to continue

:15:37.:15:40.

Fifa has released the names of the five candidates who will

:15:41.:15:45.

compete to replace Sepp Blatter as the president

:15:46.:15:47.

Controversial figure and one-time race favourite Michel Platini did

:15:48.:15:53.

not make the list, while Musa Hassan Bility was also not included.

:15:54.:16:00.

Apple has apologised to six black schoolboys who were asked to leave

:16:01.:16:03.

Footage of the incident in Melbourne sparked a social media outcry.

:16:04.:16:09.

A staff member can be heard saying security are concerned that

:16:10.:16:13.

We're worried about your presence in our store, we're worried you

:16:14.:16:18.

The boy who posted it on Facebook labelled it 'simply racism'.

:16:19.:16:31.

The store manager has now said sorry to the boys and their headteacher.

:16:32.:16:38.

One of the boys involved has accepted the apology.

:16:39.:16:46.

Let's catch up with all the sport now and join Hugh.

:16:47.:16:49.

Hello again, the main headlines in sport this morning.

:16:50.:16:51.

The Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered

:16:52.:16:53.

a full investigation into claims of 'state-sponsored doping.'

:16:54.:16:55.

It's after a World Anti-Doping Agency report recommended the

:16:56.:16:57.

country be banned from athletics.

:16:58.:16:58.

After Stuart Lancaster parted ways with England yesterday the search is

:16:59.:17:02.

on for a new head coach, but will the RFU have to look

:17:03.:17:05.

Lewis Hamilton will take part in this weekend's Brazilian Grand Prix

:17:06.:17:10.

He's also revealed he had a road accident in Monaco earlier

:17:11.:17:15.

And Chelsea's women face a difficult task to reach the quarterfinals

:17:16.:17:23.

They lost the home leg of their last 16 tie against Wolfsburg 2-1.

:17:24.:17:31.

They will need a great result in the the return leg next week.

:17:32.:17:34.

That's all the sport for this morning, I'll have all the latest

:17:35.:17:37.

I'm back tomorrow Victoria, see you then.

:17:38.:17:41.

Let's talk about the Nursie contracted a bowler working in

:17:42.:17:47.

Sierra Leone. She fell seriously ill again last month and has now been

:17:48.:17:51.

released from an isolation ward at the Royal Free Hospital, having been

:17:52.:17:56.

flown back to Glasgow to continue her recovery. In October, Pauline

:17:57.:18:01.

Cafferkey's condition was described as critical. Let's talk to Jane

:18:02.:18:06.

Draper, our health correspondent. Great news? A true, having Ebola not

:18:07.:18:12.

once but twice, being critically ill from it not once but twice, there

:18:13.:18:16.

were serious fears for her life and survival when she was said to be

:18:17.:18:19.

critically ill at the Royal free last month. When she was readmitted

:18:20.:18:25.

over a month ago it caused shock around the world, what did it mean

:18:26.:18:30.

for other Ebola survivors? We knew that the virus could hang on in

:18:31.:18:34.

bombardment of the body, but to make someone this ill again caused

:18:35.:18:37.

serious concerns, so it is great news that she is on the mend and

:18:38.:18:40.

back in Glasgow. Can I ask how they treat the virus?

:18:41.:18:47.

This time she was treated with an experimental anti-viral drug, a

:18:48.:18:50.

relatively new drug involving a drip once a day that she was given an

:18:51.:18:54.

infusion with, and it seemed to do the trick. But it is such a new area

:18:55.:18:58.

of science, there have been four cases now at the Royal Free, twice

:18:59.:19:06.

in bold thing Pauline, and each time all four patients, each four

:19:07.:19:13.

incidents used different treatments. It appears to have worked but we

:19:14.:19:16.

don't know if that was the drugs they were given all the body getting

:19:17.:19:20.

better, there is a lot we don't know about this virus.

:19:21.:19:23.

And I suppose we don't know if this is the final recovery or if she

:19:24.:19:28.

could regress? They don't know that either, resume of the?

:19:29.:19:31.

They are as confident as they can be, otherwise they would not have

:19:32.:19:34.

released from the specialist unit and the plastic tent in which she

:19:35.:19:38.

was being treated, so they are answered and there is no risk to the

:19:39.:19:42.

public. The biggest risk was always to Pauline herself rather than

:19:43.:19:47.

anyone else. But, yes, there are still uncertain questions more

:19:48.:19:50.

generally about the science of this virus, we are still learning.

:19:51.:19:51.

Thank you, Jane. When co-pilot Andreas Lubitz

:19:52.:19:54.

deliberately took control of his plane and plunged it

:19:55.:19:56.

in a mountainside in the French Alps earlier this year,

:19:57.:19:59.

he killed all 150 people on board. The family and friends of the

:20:00.:20:05.

victims have spent the last eight months trying to come to terms with

:20:06.:20:08.

what happened but they're also still searching for answers about how this

:20:09.:20:11.

tragedy could have happened. The view so many visitors have

:20:12.:20:26.

adored. Now the scene

:20:27.:20:27.

of Europe's latest tragedy. This is where flight number 9525

:20:28.:20:29.

crashed into France's Southern Alps this morning,

:20:30.:20:32.

with 150 people on board. A passenger aircraft reduced to

:20:33.:20:33.

debris the size of small cars. All around are the jagged edges

:20:34.:20:36.

and rugged peaks of the mountains, which are accessible, of course,

:20:37.:20:39.

only from the air. That's making the recovery

:20:40.:20:41.

and salvage operation after So many faces, so many lives,

:20:42.:20:44.

and a single question: Why did Andreas Lubitz, entrusted to

:20:45.:20:50.

fly these people safely, appear to We found medical records indicating

:20:51.:20:57.

an existing illness and treatment. Torn-up sick notes,

:20:58.:21:05.

including one from the day That supports the theory that

:21:06.:21:10.

the deceased hid his illness What do we know about

:21:11.:21:14.

Andreas Lubitz? The 27-year-old qualified

:21:15.:21:17.

as a pilot in 2013. When he took off on Tuesday he had

:21:18.:21:21.

630 hours of flight experience. There is speculation

:21:22.:21:26.

about a six-month break he took But as far

:21:27.:21:28.

as Lufthansa are concerned, Perhaps one of today's most

:21:29.:21:34.

distressing reports comes from the German tabloid newspaper, Bild,

:21:35.:21:41.

which claims it has got hold of a leaked copy of the cockpit voice

:21:42.:21:44.

recording made on flight 9525. On it, it's claimed you can hear

:21:45.:21:50.

the co-pilot, Andreas Lubitz, who's accused of deliberately

:21:51.:21:55.

having brought down the plane, chatting with his senior college,

:21:56.:21:58.

the pilot, before they take off. The pilot complains he's not had

:21:59.:22:01.

a chance to use the toilet. Once they are in the air,

:22:02.:22:05.

the co-pilot urges him The pilot does so, and then,

:22:06.:22:08.

according to Bild, can be heard knocking on the door,

:22:09.:22:13.

increasingly desperately, Passengers can be heard screaming

:22:14.:22:15.

as the pilot shouts, It is yet another chilling detail

:22:16.:22:21.

to come out of this disaster. New evidence that the co-pilot

:22:22.:22:28.

practised his fatal dive that killed It happened on a flight from Germany

:22:29.:22:32.

to Spain earlier the same day. On board that flight were

:22:33.:22:42.

three British victims. One of them was 28-year-old

:22:43.:22:44.

Paul Bramley. Let's talk to Paul's father, Phil,

:22:45.:22:48.

in his first national TV interview. Thank you very much for coming on

:22:49.:22:57.

the programme. Tell us about your son. He liked his football, very

:22:58.:23:08.

affectionate, lovely lad. He used to play football where we live, here's

:23:09.:23:13.

a Manchester United fan. It is difficult to speak about him because

:23:14.:23:19.

it is still very raw. He travelled, spoke many languages? Yes, I was

:23:20.:23:25.

thinking about that this morning, four languages, I don't know where

:23:26.:23:28.

he got it from! It must have been his mother! He had an Estonian

:23:29.:23:36.

girlfriend, so that helped him. He lived with us in Portugal, had a

:23:37.:23:39.

place in Majorca, so he spoke Spanish. Pretty good with his

:23:40.:23:46.

languages. He loved to travel. I think that's what led him, he was

:23:47.:23:54.

training to be a hotel manager, in hospitality. Everything was in front

:23:55.:24:00.

of them, at fantastic life. I think the plan was that you were going to

:24:01.:24:03.

build a hotel for him because you are in the trade, and he would run

:24:04.:24:07.

it for you? He had worked with us, he was a great lad to work with, you

:24:08.:24:15.

never had to tell him off, always on time. He was great to work with, and

:24:16.:24:20.

that is where we saw his future. He liked people, he wanted to be in

:24:21.:24:24.

hotel management. I build hotels and renovate them, so that was as far as

:24:25.:24:34.

we had got. In terms of the company, Lufthansa, who ran

:24:35.:24:38.

Germanwings, what answers do you need from them still? The big one,

:24:39.:24:46.

for us, is the mental health, we want transparency and the truth of

:24:47.:24:53.

what I understand of the facts from the French prosecutors will stop a

:24:54.:24:59.

few weeks before the flight, he was still seeing seven doctors. This is

:25:00.:25:05.

the co-pilot, Andreas Lubitz. He had seen several doctors from 2009

:25:06.:25:09.

onwards, I still cannot understand how somebody is allowed to be in a

:25:10.:25:15.

cockpit on his own with those sorts of issues that they knew about, so

:25:16.:25:19.

we want transparency on that side of it.

:25:20.:25:24.

You will know that German state prosecutor said that they found

:25:25.:25:29.

evidence that Lubitz had hidden this unspecified medical condition. If

:25:30.:25:35.

someone hide that, I wonder if you can legislate for that? We thought

:25:36.:25:42.

about it, him hiding stuff, but we are talking about a five-year

:25:43.:25:45.

period. The health checks that should have been done, that were

:25:46.:25:49.

done, how did he sit through those? How did he continue to be able... He

:25:50.:25:56.

had been suspended, how can you get back on and fly again? It is a long

:25:57.:26:02.

period of time, 51 different doctors. What about his friends,

:26:03.:26:06.

relatives, who else is going through this? Right up to a couple of weeks

:26:07.:26:10.

before, where are the safeguards, what are they doing to allow

:26:11.:26:15.

somebody back into the cockpit? You have got a duty of care. It is

:26:16.:26:24.

ridiculous, there has got to be some checks. Do you feel you have been

:26:25.:26:31.

treated decently by the company? No, it is almost run by solicitors, the

:26:32.:26:34.

stuff going on now. They are arrogant, inhumane. How they are

:26:35.:26:40.

having to deal with things, the information coming back, obviously

:26:41.:26:44.

they have got their defences up. We want justice for all of the

:26:45.:26:48.

families, all of the people. We want the information, we don't want it to

:26:49.:26:54.

happen again. There are other issues, I want a proper memorial at

:26:55.:27:04.

the crash site. There is one already, we turned up this year for

:27:05.:27:09.

Paul's birthday to the crash site and these seven big concrete bunkers

:27:10.:27:16.

have turned up, full of the body parts. I don't like that. There are

:27:17.:27:24.

quite a lot of things we would like to see happening, and bit more

:27:25.:27:27.

dignified than concrete bunkers and a small plaque. I would like to see

:27:28.:27:38.

them mentioned by name. I know you travelled up that mountain on

:27:39.:27:41.

Paul's birthday. Why was that important to you? I felt it was

:27:42.:27:47.

obviously where it happened, where he left his body, so I wanted to...

:27:48.:27:57.

Are you OK? Yes. I wanted to go up there and sit and just be a bit

:27:58.:28:03.

closer, I suppose. Is it difficult, that one. -- a bit difficult. It is

:28:04.:28:12.

about four hours, you are not supposed to go up there because they

:28:13.:28:15.

are still flying in a doubt, it has been six months, they are still

:28:16.:28:19.

sanitising the area, helicopters around all the time, so I got up

:28:20.:28:25.

early, managed to get up there in four hours, as high as I could to

:28:26.:28:29.

the rock face. It gives you a bit of comfort, it is a lovely place, very

:28:30.:28:37.

pretty place. You have got to remember there are only about 150

:28:38.:28:41.

French people living in that area as well and it has affected them

:28:42.:28:45.

enormously. Something should be done a bit more properly for them as

:28:46.:28:48.

well, it would help and be fantastic for us. Dignified. Something should

:28:49.:28:59.

be done. Whose responsibility is it, do you think, to make the decision

:29:00.:29:04.

about an appropriate and dignified memorial? I think the families, we

:29:05.:29:09.

are all the same, we all feel the same, we want something that

:29:10.:29:14.

remembers our children a bit more than what there is. It has been left

:29:15.:29:19.

up to the French, I think, and I think they feel affronted by a tall

:29:20.:29:26.

as well. It is disgraceful, what has happened. They have had to look

:29:27.:29:32.

after it all and do it all. I think if that would be good. You used the

:29:33.:29:38.

word inhumane to the company have treated, that is how you feel you

:29:39.:29:42.

have been treated by the company? Yes, it is almost like cut-price

:29:43.:29:50.

airlines, I don't think it is compatible, we are all to blame in

:29:51.:29:57.

some respects for this sort of culture of cheap flights. It is not

:29:58.:30:00.

compatible with safety, in my view, anyway. If it -- that is a bigger

:30:01.:30:11.

story. In terms of the way they have treated you? They took a step back,

:30:12.:30:14.

left it to the solicitors, accountants, everything else, arms

:30:15.:30:19.

length. It weeks to get a response that Paul was on the flight. Nobody

:30:20.:30:30.

has ever wrong and apologised -- ever called and apologised. I

:30:31.:30:34.

suppose they are frightened of the repercussions and everything else,

:30:35.:30:39.

but the humane side, if you were the CEO you would get straight on the

:30:40.:30:42.

phone and wring every family, every person. But you are probably right

:30:43.:30:47.

that they perhaps think if they apologise it is at a meeting some

:30:48.:30:51.

sort of liability at this point? We are beyond that, the liability is in

:30:52.:30:55.

place, they have a duty of care and they have failed. It is almost a

:30:56.:31:04.

given where the fault lies. Lubitz, the state he was in and everything

:31:05.:31:09.

else. An airline is there to prevent those sorts of things happening. You

:31:10.:31:12.

cannot put somebody in charge of a plane who has got that history.

:31:13.:31:19.

I've got a statement from Germanwings, you will have heard

:31:20.:31:29.

this before. We we share in the sadness, shock and incomprehension

:31:30.:31:35.

of the family and friends". It's short? Yes, so ring us up, you know,

:31:36.:31:42.

speak to us directly. Carol would appreciate so much more. We have a

:31:43.:31:46.

life sentence. That paragraph is shameful really. It's corporate

:31:47.:31:51.

talk, it's, you know, these are real people and real families and, you

:31:52.:31:57.

know, I would imagine they'll think that provided their share price

:31:58.:32:01.

isn't affected and all the other things, that this will go away in no

:32:02.:32:09.

time and we don't want this to be Just one of those that's happened.

:32:10.:32:14.

There was the Russian one, the Malaysian one, this one could have

:32:15.:32:17.

been prevented, this was different, something could have been done more

:32:18.:32:20.

than what was done. I know it's been really difficult

:32:21.:32:24.

for you to talk about this, but you have done it amazingly well, thank

:32:25.:32:27.

you very much, we really appreciate your time, thank you. Thank you.

:32:28.:32:31.

Before the end of the programme, we are going to talk about HRT and the

:32:32.:32:36.

associated cancer risks and, a report out today which suggests that

:32:37.:32:42.

HRT can do a lot of good for women going through the menopause. More on

:32:43.:32:48.

that in the next few minutes. George Clooney has just opened a cafe for

:32:49.:32:54.

homeless people in Edinburgh. Our correspondent Kevin is there. This

:32:55.:32:58.

is a tiny back street. It's a busy street here in Edinburgh but it's a

:32:59.:33:03.

pedestrianised area. There was quite a crowd here, gathered from early on

:33:04.:33:07.

this morning, and when George Clooney arrived, he got out,

:33:08.:33:11.

unexpectedly at the beginning of the crowd, and worked his way all across

:33:12.:33:16.

them, speaking to people, shaking hands. A lot of people taking

:33:17.:33:20.

selfies, a lot of people just enjoying the moment of seeing this

:33:21.:33:25.

Hollywood film star in this small back street in Edinburgh. He was

:33:26.:33:30.

here, as you say, to see this social project where people come in, they

:33:31.:33:33.

buy themselves a coffee then they can leave money to buy a coffee for

:33:34.:33:37.

homeless or disadvantaged people. But just before he went in, I was

:33:38.:33:40.

lucky enough to get a quick word with him.

:33:41.:33:45.

What do you think of what they do there? It's pretty amazing, I'm

:33:46.:33:50.

going to see it, haven't seen it up close yet. Why are you supporting

:33:51.:33:56.

this charity? It's a great idea. The idea that we can participate in

:33:57.:33:59.

people's problems is important. You must be used to a crowd like that in

:34:00.:34:02.

Scotland, we are not, what do you think of it? It's not bad because

:34:03.:34:06.

they are standing out in the cold. They are going to Sir John Stevens

:34:07.:34:09.

you a sandwich. What kind of a sandwich do you like? I gotta see

:34:10.:34:17.

what they got. They tell me stew is on the menu, what do you think of

:34:18.:34:22.

that? They got what? Stew. I'm good with stew. How do you feel about

:34:23.:34:27.

being in Scotland... How do you feel about this company making a social

:34:28.:34:31.

difference whereas Starbucks don't pay any tax. I don't know about

:34:32.:34:35.

Starbucks but I know about this company which is pretty great. Are

:34:36.:34:39.

you going to buy a loyalty card? Yes, I am. How much are you going to

:34:40.:34:43.

put on it? I don't know yet, I'll have a look. Don't push. You hand's

:34:44.:34:50.

freezing. There he was, Josh George Clooney,

:34:51.:34:57.

he's gone now but a few people who came to see him are still here. Why

:34:58.:35:01.

did you come here? I love him. He's so handsome. I was working and

:35:02.:35:06.

somebody came and said, George Clooney is in castle Street and I

:35:07.:35:12.

said, oh, my God, I ran here, came here, took a picture of him, tried

:35:13.:35:17.

to make a selfie but couldn't. You were not quite chasing after car but

:35:18.:35:26.

you managed to speak to him? Yes, and touch him. Absolutely worth the

:35:27.:35:30.

wait, two hours, well worth it. The person that he really came to see

:35:31.:35:34.

was the cofounder of the cafe, so how did this all come about? We knew

:35:35.:35:40.

George was a committed humanitarian, he has a charity in Sudan so we

:35:41.:35:45.

reached out to him and said we'd fund-raise for his charity and asked

:35:46.:35:51.

him to visit our Social Bite cafe, a social enterprise where we feed

:35:52.:35:54.

through meals that our customers prepay for for the local homeless

:35:55.:35:59.

community and we employ a quarter of the workforce from the homeless

:36:00.:36:04.

community so very excited that he came. What did he eat or drink? It

:36:05.:36:08.

was unbelievable, we have had the global media today so for our small

:36:09.:36:14.

Scottish cafes, the profile is amazing, raises the concept of

:36:15.:36:17.

social enterprise, homelessness. He was incredibly charming, met all the

:36:18.:36:22.

staff, did selfies, we gave the opportunity for a couple of guys to

:36:23.:36:26.

tell their story a bit. We let him sample some of the food and I think

:36:27.:36:31.

he's donated ?1,000 by all accounts to prepay meals for homeless people

:36:32.:36:35.

and he handed over a ?5 note as well. He worked the crowd when he

:36:36.:36:41.

was here as well, a true pro? An absolute pro, never quite seen

:36:42.:36:45.

anything like it, incredibly charismatic, stopped, shook hands,

:36:46.:36:48.

got photos with almost anyone that he could so unbelievable. Quite a

:36:49.:36:51.

day for Edinburgh, thank you very much, Josh. Quite a day for

:36:52.:36:55.

Edinburgh, it's not every day that an international film star, one of

:36:56.:36:58.

the most famous that there is comes to a little back street like this.

:36:59.:37:14.

It's believed HRT use has dropped dramatically since a couple of

:37:15.:37:20.

studies linked it to an increased risk of cancer a few years ago. A

:37:21.:37:23.

report says specialist services should be in place for women under

:37:24.:37:27.

the age of 40 who begin premature menopause. Melanie Davies is a

:37:28.:37:33.

consultant gainologist at London University Hospital and has worked

:37:34.:37:44.

on the guidelines and three women, Nia, Fisher Subarta. What is if

:37:45.:37:51.

menopause? When a woman's periods stop, stop producing the female

:37:52.:37:54.

hormone which is oestrogen. The similar Poms? About eight out of ten

:37:55.:38:00.

get symptoms, a quarter quite severely. It's typically hot

:38:01.:38:06.

flushes, night sweats, often muscle and joint pain, mood changes,

:38:07.:38:11.

particularly low mood and frequently sexual difficulties, sometimes those

:38:12.:38:15.

are physical to do with vaginal dryness and sometimes psychological

:38:16.:38:19.

with loss of interest. So HRT can help, what are the risks associated

:38:20.:38:23.

with taking it though in terms of cancer specifically? I should say

:38:24.:38:32.

the guideline tries to look at all approaches, not just at HRT. That is

:38:33.:38:36.

the most effective treatment for the symptoms though. The concern has

:38:37.:38:40.

been mainly over cancer risk and in particular the risk of breast

:38:41.:38:45.

cancer. We have reexamined all of the evidence and we are really

:38:46.:38:48.

focussing on women who are around the age of 50 going to their doctor

:38:49.:38:53.

with symptoms. For them, over the next five to ten years, there is a

:38:54.:38:58.

risk of breast cancer, it's about 22 in 1,000, to give you some numbers,

:38:59.:39:05.

and that would increase to about five per 1000. So HRT would be

:39:06.:39:11.

responsible for? An extra five cases of breast cancer. Up from the 22

:39:12.:39:16.

expected in a thousand women over five years? Between five and ten.

:39:17.:39:22.

Let me ask all three of you, some of you have taken HRT, some not, what

:39:23.:39:26.

do you think of the risks and how it affects your choices? I refused to

:39:27.:39:32.

take it. Because of the cancer risk? Precisely because of the cancer

:39:33.:39:37.

risk. Even though it's so small? Indeed but I already have existed

:39:38.:39:41.

illnesses so I'm putting in a far more amount of chemicals inside my

:39:42.:39:46.

body than necessary or required, so I turn to alternative they aries

:39:47.:39:52.

using herbal medicine. That was far more beneficial. Nia, what about

:39:53.:39:56.

you? I was diagnosed with menopause when I was 35 so the pros I thought

:39:57.:40:03.

far outweighed the cons as far as oestrogen that my body wasn't

:40:04.:40:05.

producing naturally any more. I think it's great that the guidelines

:40:06.:40:09.

that it mentions women under the age of 40 because there is a definite

:40:10.:40:12.

lack of support up until now. Hopefully that will change.

:40:13.:40:17.

Anxietyian, yours was a surgical menopause after a hysterectomy? Yes,

:40:18.:40:22.

total hysterectomy including both ovaries. Your decision about it was

:40:23.:40:28.

what? Initially it was that I chose not to take it and that was

:40:29.:40:34.

essentially due to a lack of information. My information was

:40:35.:40:43.

based on the way that some HRT is produced which is conjugated equine

:40:44.:40:46.

oestrogen andethically I could not take that. What was that thing

:40:47.:40:53.

about... Conjugated equine oestrogen. Is that horse urine, is

:40:54.:40:59.

that true that it contains that? That is the original HRT and the

:41:00.:41:05.

most widely used. The modern ones are not animal derivatives and they

:41:06.:41:12.

are more close to the human body. The GPs are saying effectively what?

:41:13.:41:16.

Have an individual discussion with the women that come to seek your

:41:17.:41:21.

advice. GPs would do that anyway without guidelines... That's not

:41:22.:41:26.

true, sorry, that's just not true. OK, go on, tell me! It's up to each

:41:27.:41:30.

and every individual woman now to make sure they have access to the

:41:31.:41:34.

right information. In this day and age of the Internet and everything

:41:35.:41:37.

else, there are still so many women who do not have the information they

:41:38.:41:41.

require and the GP is the last person possibly that you would get

:41:42.:41:44.

any information from. All you have to do is ask? Part of the

:41:45.:41:48.

difficulty, Victoria, is that many women feel very, very close by the

:41:49.:41:52.

time they make that appointment and go for that appointment. When

:41:53.:41:57.

they're turned away or given antidepressants or told, do you know

:41:58.:42:01.

actually it's just a phase of life, you'll have to get on with it, no.

:42:02.:42:08.

You want to come in Nia? When I was diagnosed, I was in a state of shock

:42:09.:42:11.

and lost all my confidence. Even the thought of picking up the phone and

:42:12.:42:15.

making a GP appointment was almost too overwhelming and I did but once

:42:16.:42:19.

I was in the room, you need somebody to give you the information and to

:42:20.:42:22.

take the reins because sometimes you are just not in a place where you

:42:23.:42:25.

feel you can do that. You were in a state of shock because A you were

:42:26.:42:29.

young and B it's going to affect your fertility? I'm infertile, yes.

:42:30.:42:35.

What help did you get then? I didn't get any help as far as the emotional

:42:36.:42:39.

side of it at all, no offer of counselling or pointed in any

:42:40.:42:44.

direction at all. It was all about HRT and the physical side of it. But

:42:45.:42:49.

that's only a fraction of what you are actually going through. That is

:42:50.:42:52.

really interesting, you would agree it's a fraction of what is going on

:42:53.:42:57.

up here as well? I initially chose not to take the HRT because my

:42:58.:43:01.

information wasn't complete. Eventually, I got to such a low

:43:02.:43:05.

place in my life, I wasn't functioning at all, and I went back,

:43:06.:43:11.

actually I was taken back to my GP by my wonderful husband and I sat

:43:12.:43:15.

down and when we sat down she said to me, you don't have to have that

:43:16.:43:22.

equine oestrogen, you can have bio-identical oestrogen, but I

:43:23.:43:26.

didn't know that. That hadn't been, at no point mentioned. After my

:43:27.:43:31.

hysterectomy, I'd managed to come out of the hospital within two days,

:43:32.:43:35.

that was my choice, I wanted to be out, I left with absolutely no

:43:36.:43:36.

information. All right. I have learnt a lot,

:43:37.:43:41.

thank you so much. Thank you for coming on the programme all of you.

:43:42.:43:46.

On the programme tomorrow, we'll look at the Russian doping scandal

:43:47.:43:49.

which has rocked athletics. Thank you very much for your company today

:43:50.:43:52.

and messages. Back tomorrow at 9. 15, have a good day.

:43:53.:44:02.

Join us on BBC One for a truly epic night of entertainment,

:44:03.:44:05.

featuring your favourite stars and shows.

:44:06.:44:09.

Phil Bramley, the father of a British man killed in the Germanwings plane crash in March, tells Victoria Derbyshire the suicidal co-pilot should have been grounded.

A close friend of Becky Watts has said the teenager was 'scared' of her stepbrother Nathan Matthews, who has been convicted of her murder.

And studio guests discuss new guidelines for treating the symptoms of the menopause.