04/12/2015 Victoria Derbyshire

I'm Victoria Derbyshire, welcome to our programme This morning:

Why are self-styled Islamic State so rich?

I see the Tories taking money from towns like Oldham, I am sick to

death of it. I am shifting from being a council leader to becoming

an MP because for Oldham to do well, we need a Labour government.

Labour have comfortably won the Oldham West by-election,

A massive increase in postal vote. Somebody is harvesting them. Why do

we have postal vote in on this scale at all? We had it for the elderly,

infirm and people working overseas, now blocks of communities are signed

up to postal voting. In many ways, you could see the results are over

before the contest has begun. We'll get reaction from a member

of Jeremy Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet. And sugar, sugar, sugar -

all this week we've been looking at different ways of reducing the

amount we eat to help cut obesity. Today we look

at supermarket multibuy offers - are there too many deals on sweets,

fizzy drinks and junk foods? 40% of the food we buy in

supermarkets, like the one behind me, is discounted or on promotion in

some way. That has risen dramatically in the last five or ten

years, and the proportion bought on discount is double the amount bought

in other countries like France and Germany.

We're on BBC 2 and the BBC News Channel until 11 this morning.

Throughout the programme we'll bring you up to

date with the latest breaking news and developing stories.

Plus "A victory for common sense" is how campaigners are describing

the Government's decision to scrap controversial charges imposed

on convicted criminals by courts in England and Wales.

It's an issue we've covered quite a bit on the programme

As always keen to hear from you on all the stories we're covering

We're going to start the programme today by talking

about how self-styled Islamic State makes its money.

It raises millions of dollars every single month.

Which is why oil fields controlled by the fighters have been

the main target of UK strikes in Syria so far.

The hope is that by destroying some of them it will

be harder for IS to raise money to pay their fighters and buy weapons.

So how has this terrorist organisation already managed

Some people sold pieces worth up to $1000.

Some people sold pieces worth up to $1 million.

Let's talk now to Benjamin Bahney from the RAND Corporation,

which has carried out research into IS funding,

and Dr Andreas Krieg who works at Kings College, London and is also an

Thank you both for talking to us. Benjamin, how to IS get the oil out

of Iraq and Syria, who is buying it? Typically, IS sells oil at the

wellhead to local truckers, who up until recently have you lining up at

the oilfields to take the oil and trucks and take it off for sale

further on down the line. We know that in some cases they have taken

it to local refineries, into Kurdistan and Turkey, for the most

part. They have sold some oil to the Assad regime as well. For the most

part, it kind of stays locally within the surrounding countries.

These oil traders are taking it outside of the ices territories. It

is distributed and sold on by middlemen? The Assad regime, buying

oil from IS, strikes me as bizarre? It is, but it goes deeper. They are

also co-managing a whole host of gas plant is as well. The Assad

regime's electrical infrastructure largely relies on gas refineries in

ices territory. Not only is it selling the Assad regime oil, they

are managing the Assad regime's gas infrastructure that is keeping the

lights on. Even though they are fighting each other on the ground in

Syria? Doctor Andreas Greig, oil has been reducing as a revenue stream.

What about the money they make collecting taxes for the services

they provide, a quasi-state? -- Andreas Krieg. The mistake people

make is looking at them as a terrorist organisation, primarily

they are an insurgency group, which means they are governing areas. They

have been raising more and more taxes over the past year, they have

lots of public services that they had to provide an playful, they have

been raising more and more taxes. The extortion money that they get

from taxes, brides, checkpoints many, anybody who wants to do any

business in the Islamic State, anybody who wants to pass through

the Islamic State, has to pay money. That has been raised in the

billions, we estimate that last year they probably raised $1 billion

worth of taxes and extortion money. Probably 50% of their revenue is

extortion. As long as people stay within the Islamic State, living

there and paying taxes, this revenue stream will not be able to be

targeted by anybody. Interestingly, when IS took Mosul, for example, as

we explained in the film, that generated a lot of money and they

lowered taxes for the people living in the area? That is part of the

insurgency strategy. They have learned from Al-Qaeda and other

terrorist organisations, they know that winning hearts and minds is

key. This is key for as if we want to fight the insurgency. They have

basically seized almost $800 million with the seizure of Mosul, they use

that to reinvest it into infrastructure and public services,

cutting taxes, providing free food and someone and so forth to win over

the Iraqi population and the Syrian population. Benjamin, according to

your organisation, IS's total revenue rose from just under $1

million per month in late 2008, two between $1 million and $3 million

per day in 2014. That is just extraordinary? It really is. I think

the way you explain that is that Isis has been able to exploit

fissures within the Iraqi and Syrian societies which has allowed them to

grow tremendously. What has given them the ability to grow is a robust

organisation. They have an organisational model that they have

really deployed and spread out across the different territories

they are written which has really given them the backbone to grow

their state. It has allowed them to collect taxes, to regulate commerce

and the practices of individuals within those areas. They have grown

quite a bit. They have had a lot of military success. They have had a

huge opening with the Syrian civil war which occurred. It is no

surprise to me that they are increasing their revenue as well.

But as the other speakers said they have had to increase spending. They

have had the order they few thousand individuals in the group, now it is

potentially up to 100,000. They are providing some public services as

well. I would characterise it as being less public services than what

they do, really, just providing for internal members of the

organisation. Can I ask you both, Benjamin Furst, about something I

read about on a regular basis, donations from wealthy individuals

in Saudi Arabia? I have never really seen much evidence that, in

particular, Saudi donations make up any significant part of Isis'

revenue. We have been following them for about ten years and we have

never seen that foreign donations as a whole, ever mined from a

particular country, have added up to any significant part of their

revenue picture. We can't discount that donations from places like

Saudi Arabia are happening, they are happening from other countries as

well. But I don't see it as being a particularly meaningful part of

their overall finances. Dr Andreas Krieg, do you agree? Absolutely. It

is not a terrorist organisation. Al-Qaeda used to get a lot of

funding from private donors. Al-Qaeda in Iraq probably received

money from private donors in the early stages, but as Benjamin

rightly said, it is insignificant in the grand scheme of things. What are

the best ways to cut off the funding of IS? Andreas? Like I said, this is

an insurgency problem, initially people were trying, there was an

initiative together with the Gulf countries to clamp down on foreign

donations to Isis. This is not very significant. Looking at this

insurgency, we need to see that the centre of gravity for Isis, the

so-called Islamic State, is the civilian population. We need to

somehow divorce the civilian population, they support them

pragmatically, rather than ideological E, because it is the

Damascus regime in one place and the Baghdad regime in another. If we can

make them turn their back on Islamic State and stop paying taxes, it

would be a major step forward. We need to develop a sociopolitical

alternative to the Islamic State for people to seek refuge. This is

something militarily but also financially which would undermine

the stability of Islamic State. Destroying the refineries, there

will always be people who will sell oil one way all the other to the

Turks, the Kurds or the Assad regime. People want to make money.

The Islamic State has undersold the oil under the market price, which

has now become a bit more difficult because the oil price is down

anyway. I was in Kurdistan last year and I was speaking to the Peshmerga

forces, the Kurdish forces, they say that even people under their watch,

more or less, were allowing money from the Islamic State to be sold on

their territory because it is so cheap and people want to make money.

The solution, Benjamin? I think I will disagree with Andreas to a

certain extent. I think there are important population centric aspects

of the problem but, for the most part, people under the rule of Isis

are not particularly happy with their situation, not particularly

happy with Isis. They may not also be happy with some of the potential

alternatives like the Assad regime or, in Iraq, the Iraqi government.

What I think, by and large, people are happy with Isis, things are

going well. What we have seen in the course of the last year is that

Isis' provision of services has really fallen off, the support of

the local populations has fallen off, Isis is bringing people into

the territories and not allowing people to exit. With regards to

clamping down on the revenue, I think it will be age are lynched to

clamp down on the extortion. In order to really clamped down on that

you need to take the territory away from them, take away their ability

to really have a monopoly of force in their areas. That is a military

issue, it will have to be done where local forces on the ground, the

Kurds, local Syrian forces, potentially the Free Syrian Army and

Iraqi security forces. Another important aspect that we are doing

as a coalition is going after Isis's oil fields. The only choke

point I see in the system are the well heads. There are two oil fields

in eastern Syria that make up the majority of the crude oil production

in Isis Territories. If we can make it clear that they are not going to

be allowed to leave those areas, that the air campaign will take away

their ability to move oil away from there it is possible that we can

restrict the ability of Isis to move oil. Which can potentially put a

serious crimp on their oil revenue. That is something we seem to be

doing now. One quick question from a viewers, why does the coalition not

block the bank accounts with the money is held, are billions of

dollars held in the conventional bank accounts, albeit under

pseudonyms? Both. A lot of cash flow is going on. Some of the assets that

they seized in Mosul were in gold bullion, or in foreign cash

reserves. So the money isn't just being held in conventional bank

accounts. And then they use pseudonyms. In Turkey for instance

the border doesn't really exist in some parts between the Islamic State

and Turkey because people can move freely across the borders and bring

cash outside the country and open a bank account outside the country. So

there are unconventional means. Some of the governments in the region and

Turkey really have to clamp down on this kind of transport activity.

Really interesting, thank you both of you. Benjamin Barnett, from the

Rand Corporation and Dr Andreas Krieg.

Are supermarket promotions adding to the obesity crisis?

As part of our series on sugar we ask why there are

so many cut-price deals on stuff that can make you fat.

Also we'll get reaction to the news that a controversial court

charge - which led to magistrate resignations - has been scrapped.

It is a story we have covered several times on the programme in

the last few months. Labour have comfortably won

the Oldham West and Royton by-election, holding the seat with

a majority of just under 11,000. Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has

hailed the result as a vote The UK Independence Party came

second but its leader Nigel Farage A candlelit vigil has taken place

at the scene of a mass shooting Fourteen people died when a married

couple opened fire on public health workers in San Bernardino

during a Christmas party. US officials have revealed

the duo were in contact Russia has criticised Britain's

decision to launch air strikes on so-called Islamic State targets

in Syria, claiming it won't further The Russian Foreign Minister,

Sergei Lavrov, suggested that the United Nations resolution

which Britain is operating under, Meanwhile, the Syrian Information

Minister said the raids are merely Rail fares will rise back up to 1.1%

in January. They raised delivery group says it is the smallest price

increase for six years. Regulated fares, which cover most

commuter season tickets, can't rise by more than 1% as the Government

has linked them to inflation. Yet and regulated fares can be

increased at the discretion of the train companies.

There are reports 16 people have been killed in a

security officials confirmed the attack at a night club

There are reports a disgruntled former employee may be

Sales of Volkswagen cars fell by almost 20% last month - in the wake

Figures from the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders showed

nearly 13,000 new Volkswagen branded vehicles were registered in November

- that's down almost 20% from the same month in 2014.

More on that story before ten o'clock.

Mount Etna has erupted for the first time in two years.

The volcano on the Italian island of Sicily sent a plume of fire and

The eruption caused the closure of the nearest airport on the Italian

mainland and left several villages covered in a thick layer of ash.

Now with the sports News, here is Jess. A lot of sports stories

around. The big news is in cycling as the two time Tour de France

winner Chris Froome has released a blood and power data to prove that

he is a keen athlete. There had been suspicions about him because of his

results in the last couple of years. It came to a head at the Tour de

France in July where fans spat at him and threw you ring at him

because they was as bishops of his results come he is the first British

site list to win the Tour de France twice, in 2013 and this year. He

says that he hasn't broken the rules, hasn't cheated and hasn't

taken any secret substance is not known of yet. He says his results

may be down to losing weight as especially during the race this

year. He also says it is not about physicality alone, this board is

also about mental endurance, going through the pain threshold and being

able to sustain it longer than your opponents. More about that from

Richard Moore of Esquire magazine who has interviewed Chris Froome and

found out more about what these test results mean, that will be after

10am. Johanna Konta, the British and one, has been the latest to

criticise the lawn tennis Association, she had her funding cut

last year which she says jeopardised her career. This comes just after

Andy Murray the wooden Batu criticised the RTA for not doing

enough to maintain the future of the sport. And finally, the astronaut

Tim Peake will run from London Marathon in April in space! I could

wait to tell you more about that. I can't wait either, that could be

true! Thank you for your comments on the funding of Isis, who is

supplying them with weapons and why have these people not been targeted,

asks one viewer. Someone else says that by bombing oil sites we are

attacking the infrastructure yet we are causing damage and only stopping

a small party of their financing. Someone as points out that they are

using the banking system, why can't we stop but being used. A message on

Twitter says that with all the technology we have, the control is

on law-abiding people. One text says it is not just about how they are

raising money, it is how they are spending it, who is giving them

ammunition. And others say, how about sanctions, we have seen

sanctions bringing countries like Iran to their knees.

This week on the programme we're looking at

the best ways of reducing our sugar content and tackling childhood

obesity, a problem which could soon cost us more than smoking, war,

The typical British family saves around ?600 a year

Two for one, multi-buy, buy one, get one free -

they're a big part of our weekly shop.

But doctors and some politicians now think the way some food is

They'd like to see voluntary restrictions on deals for sweets,

If that doesn't work, then there is now the threat

of legislation to force supermarkets to act, as Jim Reed reports.

One medical condition will soon cost us more than smoking, war,

The country's most senior doctor has warned that overweight is fast

becoming the norm in British society.

So, the question, for the government, the doctors,

the food industry and for us - how do we start to tackle what many

think is the biggest threat to public health in the 21st-century?

A decade ago it was unheard of for children to develop Type 2 diabetes.

Now there are more than 500 people in the UK living with

Last year her doctor told her that she was on the verge

of developing the chronic illness strongly linked to obesity.

Was there a moment for you when you realised you had got to

When the doctor said to me, you've got to sort yourself out,

It's difficult to take that on, but then I was like, I've had

The feeling it leaves you with after,

It's like your body is trying to purge the

horrible stuff out of you and you feel really disgusting afterwards.

Here's a couple of photos of me before and during the run.

So, this year, Ellie has started running, tried to change her diet,

She's the first to accept she still has a way to go, but looking back,

she says she feels like a different person.

I didn't want to end up being that person who is 20 stone.

In a nearby cafe, she sips a cup of tea.

A couple of years ago, Ellie says she got caught in a spiral of

Suddenly, she was starting to put on weight.

I was drinking a lot of fizzy drinks, that's for sure.

It's buy two for so much money, and then you have both Cokes, and it

won't be that you leave one for one week and one for the next, you

And you weren't thinking I'm going to have the diet version?

So this idea that you buy one get one free,

In your mind it doesn't work like that?

It would be like the chocolate bars, buy two for ?1 or whatever.

I could never just leave one bar behind.

It can sometimes feel that supermarkets get the blame

From destroying town centres to ripping off farmers.

Now politicians are starting to worry that cheap deals

like this are one factor behind obesity and ill-health.

Here's an interesting shopping fact for you.

40% of the food we buy in supermarkets, like

the one behind me, is now discounted or on promotion in some way.

That number has risen dramatically in the last five or ten years.

The proportion bought on discounts is now double

the amount bought in other countries like France and Germany.

On one hand, this is saving us all money.

Research commissioned by Public Health England found that

a typical household would spend an extra ?630 per year

if all the food bought on offer was instead bought at full price.

First, supermarket deals are more likely to be high in sugar.

And those offers are more deeply discounted.

Put simply, we might be getting a cheap deal,

Preston in Lancashire has all four of the giant supermarkets.

Students usually have an eye for a bargain, so we gave small teams

?20 each and strict instructions to buy as many sugary treats

A month before Christmas, it wasn't hard to find cut-price deals.

Back in the university canteen, and here are the results

These were ?2 each, these chocolate bars.

We're not pretending this was scientific, but it gives you

an idea of the scale of discounting ahead of Christmas.

Research shows that promotions like this don't just make products

cheaper, they encourage us to buy more.

22% of all food and drink bought on offer is extra stuff we wouldn't

So, now MPs on the Health Select Committee want to do

They are backing restrictions, not just on cut-price sugary products,

We know things like deep discounting make

And they tend to all be on the unhealthiest products.

None of the big four supermarkets would speak to us on camera.

All said they had a wide range of deals on all types of food,

Tesco said it was the first major retailer to remove

Asda said it has cut the sugar in its own-label drinks by a third.

Sainsbury's said it has a policy of never charging more

And Morrisons said it has more than 50 deals this week alone

But one of their smaller rivals was prepared to talk on camera.

Iceland is big in frozen food and has been moving

I think supermarkets do have to do more.

I don't agree that the vast majority of promotions are

I think if you go and look over the last three weeks

you'll have seen that across the industry there has been a big price

I think that the public in general don't notice that.

And the media in general don't pick up on that.

So, yesterday, in Iceland near me, a chocolate orange was less than

Four litre bottles of Coke were two for ?5.

Chocolate biscuits, 50% free on most chocolate biscuits.

It's now the time of year when there's an awful lot of sugary

stuff on offer, not just in Iceland but other supermarkets as well.

And you are absolutely right, it's that time of year.

You could have gone into any of the supermarkets out there,

and at the front of the store you would see the same thing.

Look, we have to cater for what our customers want.

We have to make sure our customers are seeing what they want at this

time of year, so they can give their guests and families what they want.

But at the same time, we are making it easier for them to

Of course, banning those cut-price deals on sweets or junk

We all like a bargain, and any new law to restrict that is

I feel more confident, fitter, lighter.

For Ellie, it's more about personal choice.

She comes here every week to run, is trying to lose more weight,

and wants to slowly work up to a half marathon.

Because it's not worth going through all that struggle,

and all that discomfort for a bottle of Coke, or a hot chocolate.

There's more to life than sweets and sugary stuff, there definitely is.

By the way, we donated all of the left over food

Thank you for getting a dirge. One of you on Facebook says, I don't

understand why the customer is always penalised, not the companies

producing or selling the products, they should take responsibility and

be penalised. Another message on Facebook, I think

these buy one get one off offers are to blame for a large amount of the

obesity problem. Supermarkets encourage people to buy bulk, by two

get one free, they multi-park offers. By trying to save money the

consumer is buying more, eating more and probably wasting more.

Ellie on Facebook says we have become a very consuming society,

Yazidi or something they are good. After working in detail you discover

these deals are not as good value as you think they are or not worth the

extra eating and weight gain -- Yazidi deals you think they are

good. Craig says you can buy three chocolate bars for a quid or five

apples, it is personal choice. Carroll says the manufacturer should

be held responsible for the amount of sugar in product is. It seems

things are being made sweeter in the war to win sales, not just sweet and

fizzy drinks, but even savoury foods have more sugar in them at the

manufacturers were forced to reduce the salt content. There should be a

cap on the amount of sugar per gram. Another person says that they

work on the soft rings industry and they can purchase soft drinks for a

fraction of the retail cost. Me and my family are not obese in any way,

we choose what we eat. A little later

in the programme we'll look at whether hard hitting advertising

campaigns can help cut obesity. And we'll ask the food

and drink representatives if they're doing enough to cut sugar

content in our food. You can watch all of Jim's films

on our programme page Still to come, falling car sales for

VW in the wake of the cheating emissions scandal, we will look at

how the, any factual and now compares to its rivals. -- how the

manufacturer now compared is. Labour have comfortably won

their first by-election with I declared that Jim McMahon is a

member of Parliament. Well, thank you to the people

of Oldham West and Royton. Genuinely, the result is

quite staggering, I think. I never imagined that I would be

standing here as an MP for the town that I live in, that I

love, and that I have fought hard to When your neighbours and friends

come out and support you on this The Oldham West

and Royton victory is a surprise for some - because pretty much every

newspaper predicted Labour would struggle to hold the seat and might

it by just a few hundred votes. In fact they increased the share

of the vote compared to Jeremy Corbyn says it's a

"vote of confidence" for the party. But Ukip leader Nigel Farage is

blaming what he calls A massive increase in the number

of postal votes yesterday. So, somebody was out there

harvesting the postal votes. But there is a bigger question -

why do we have postal voting We used to have it

for people who were elderly, infirm, Now we have whole blocks

of communities signed up to postal In many ways, you could say these

by-election results are over I've said this

at every single by-election Yeah, but you said it

every time you've lost. You used it as an excuse in

South Thanet, and they said they I didn't mention it in South Thanet

at all. I'm talking particularly

about by-elections. Don't forget we had a Tower Hamlets,

we've had Birmingham, we've had, repeatedly, evidence of fraud

within the postal voting system. I think British democracy

should be clean. Let's talk now to senior Labour

MP Owen Smith, who is the Shadow Mr Smith, is there evidence of

corruption? Not that I am aware of, I think it is complete sour grapes

from Nigel Farage. I don't member him moaning about postal votes when

they won the by-election. Labour won a stonking great victory in Oldham,

Jim McMahon is a great guy and I think the people of Oldham responded

to him and, quite clearly, to the Labour Party. Nobody was talking

about is winning and 11,000 majority, increasing our share of

the vote by 8%, the Tories down 10%, you could bumping along the bottom.

Nigel Farage needs to lose a little better. What about the complaints

that people were turning up with bundles of postal votes? If there is

any evidence of fraud, really whoever has the evidence should

report it to the police for investigation, that is pretty

standard practice. Some of the stuff I have heard from Nigel, I think he

needs to get over himself. He Ross Barkley, Labour won, he needs to

accept that and move on -- he lost badly. You will remember the Tower

Hamlets mayoral election where the Metropolitan Police Service. The

harvesting of postal vote in the East London borough, and the proper

distribution of election literature. Your candidate had to stand down.

But why on earth should anybody suggest until they have provided

some evidence or said they are going to report this to the police,

anybody drawing any connection between this brilliant win in Oldham

and what happened in Tower Hamlets. I hear Nigel Farage is morning

talking about people who couldn't speak English, I thought there was a

slight whiff of racism. I am sure he did not intended but it came across

in that way. He needs to look hard at himself and accept that Labour

won with a message about working people's interests, their concerns

in Oldham. We fought on the tax credits issue, where Labour won a

brilliant victory from the Government, turning round a decision

which would have taken millions of pounds away from millions of people.

They buried that in the Autumn Statement and moved swiftly on to

Syria. The people of Oldham clearly clocked it and saw what the Tories

were trying to do, that is why they lost 10% of the vote and Labour went

up almost 10%. It is racism rather than alleged corruption? I thought,

listening to Nigel Farage this morning using phrases like whole

streets were people couldn't speak English, implying that people were

voting for Labour without understanding who the Labour Party

were, I thought there was a hint of racism in what he seems to be

implying. I think that would be deeply unfortunate, in fact,

reprehensible, if that is what he was implying, he needs to answer for

that will stop you know it has been hard for Jeremy

Corbyn, your leader in the last couple of weeks, she kill, writing

to the party to confirm his position against air strikes, offering a free

vote, a divided party on display in the Commons on Wednesday. Is there a

question between Labour MPs in the House of Commons and Labour voters

in places like golden? No, I think we are all Labour, we are Labour

representatives. -- in places like Oldham. We saw a tortured Labour

Party and a tortured country on Wednesday, thinking incredibly

deeply and seriously about the most important decision we can make as

MPs, whether we send our country into combat with its inevitable

consequences. I think the Labour Party was a reflection of the

country this week in being conflicted about that decision. I

don't think there was anything wrong with that, I think we have handled

it well and I think Jeremy did the right thing in allowing the free

vote. Can I ask you about bullying in your party of those who voted for

air strikes, is enough being done to clamp down on it? No doubt, we need

to do more. I heard Tom Watson saying this morning that we need to

think about a renewed, reinvigorated code of conduct, I agree. I think

anybody who is found guilty of making some of these dreadful threat

made against some MPs who voted absolutely in good conscience and

good face for what they thought was the best thing to do in order to try

to secure a lasting peace in Syria, I disagreed with him, I voted

against the air strikes being extended to Syria, but I don't doubt

for a minute that my colleagues who voted differently did so with the

best possible intentions. And anybody threatening them or their

staff, as we have seen in London with a great MP, Stella Creasy,

needs to be, in my view, if they are in the Labour Party, drummed out of

the party. We need to make sure that we behaved absolutely with respect

and tolerance towards one another. We are the Labour Party, for

goodness sake, we had to be in the vanguard of standing up for free

speech and tolerance. Let me read you some comment from people

watching you around the country. Ali on Facebook, certainly a rejection

of Ukip and then divisive policies. Terry says it would be hard to find

a downside for Mr Corbyn and Labour, an increased share of the vote on a

reasonable turnout for a by-election. Mr Farage seem to be

playing the race card and attacking postal voting. Don't you could

voters vote by post? Aaron on Facebook says I find that often the

local politician sways my vote rather than the national politics of

the party leader. All very comp entry. Matt on Facebook, 23,000

turned out to vote for the previous MP. Only 17,004 Jim McMahon. Where

did the other Labour supporters go? -- only 17,000 four Jim McMahon.

By-election is always have a low turnout, there has not been won in

recent memory whether turnout goes up. And it was lashing down with

rain and horrible for a lot of yesterday. It was a great result for

Labour, for us to get an increased share of the vote, 62%. Some of the

commentators were talking about a commentary of perhaps 2000, others

suggested that Labour might lose. With the majority of 11,000 they

were proved wrong, Jeremy Corbyn and Jim McMahon had great support in

Oldham, we should take heart from this that if we speak up for working

people, their concerns on tax credits and everything, Labour can

win with Jeremy Corbyn and go on to victory. Winning a general election

in 2020? That is what I will fight for. We have seen massive cuts and

all sorts of sneaky things being done by the Chancellor in the

Budget, working people, whether pensioners or young people, will

lose out under this Government, we need a Labour Government to stand up

for them. Would you put your mortgage and Jeremy Corbyn being the

leader of Labour in the run-up to the 2020 general election. That is

an unfair question, why -- my wife never forgives me if I put a bet on,

especially on politics. But I will be standing behind Jeremy, I want

Labour to win, whoever is our leader. The Shadow Secretary for

Work and Pensions. we're expecting to hear from labour

leader Jeremy Corbyn and the new Labour MP for Oldham West and Royton

- we'll bring you that live. Still to come: Mourners gathered in

a candlelit vigil for the victims of the California shooting. President

Obama said it could be a terrorist attack. We will hear from the local

community what it has been like. Alex has the weather.

Some wet weather across parts of India first of all before the windy

weather across the UK this weekend. We have seen incredible scenes in

Chennai, it has been battered by rains for the last couple of months.

It is the wet season, but even for the wet season incredible amount of

water have fallen from the skies. We will continue to see wet weather for

the next few days. A suburb of Chennai has received 490 millimetres

of rain in just one day. Places like Oxford, London and Norwich would

only receive about 600 millimetres of rain per year. Not far off

year's worth of rain for the UK falling here. Tens of thousands have

been affected by the downpours, all from the north-easterly monsoon.

Chennai has turned drier, the main problems will be a little bit

further south across India, the rain is continuing through the weekend,

the wet weather may push back towards Chennai, formerly known as

madras, early next week. Further risk of flooding across the south of

India over the next few days. Close to home, problems with snow

last night across parts of south-east Scotland, heavy snow

falling chewing the evening rush hour. The system responsible for

that has moved away, bringing some potentially for Byland winds across

Scandinavia. We are more concerned with this area of low pressure

colour look at the isobars increasing. The winds are steadily

picking up. Actually, not causing too many problems at the moment and

foremost it is a good day, dry and bright for most with scattered

showers. The weather system is bringing wet weather to the far

north-west. For much of eastern England after dull and mild weather

for most of the week, it looks brighter. A little cooler, but not

cold, temperatures widely other. -- over double figures. Try and bright

across much of northern England and Wales, the sunshine will turn hazy

as the cloud increases. There is the cloud, turning things soggy across

western Scotland. The winds will really get going through the

evening. Really picking up in the far north-west. It is still mild but

it will feel colder as the winds gather pace, particularly lively

across the Northwest this evening. Guests in the western isles of 60,

70 and possibly 80 mph in exposed areas. Even inland, we could see 40,

50 and maybe 60 mph gusts this evening and overnight. There that in

mind if you are travelling, those winds could cause problems and the

rain will not be helping. The rain will move south, a much brighter

day. In Scotland and Northern Ireland, the winds will ease

although still quite gusty and the far north. Plenty

although still quite gusty and the warnings in force and flood warnings

also being updated on our website. Through this weekend.

It's just after 10 o'clock, it's Friday, I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

Labour celebrates a strong win in the Oldham by-election although the

Ukip leader Nigel Farage claims that the process was corrupt.

A massive increase in the number of postal votes yesterday.

So, somebody was out there harvesting the postal votes.

But there is a bigger question - why do we have postal voting

We used to have it for people who were elderly, infirm,

Now we have whole blocks of communities signed up to postal

In many ways, you could say these by-election results are over

I think it's complete sour grapes from Nigel Farage. He needs to get

used to losing. I don't remember him moaning about postal votes when they

won the by-election. I think that the truth is that Labour won a

stonking great victory in Oldham. President Obama says that terrorism

may have been behind the attack in California. It was carnage, when we

arrived on the scene, the number of people already dead and the panic on

the face of those individuals still in need, needing to be safe. Also do

we need shock campaigns to help to reduce the amount of sugar that

weird? The latest in our series of special reports. The news.

Labour have comfortably won the Oldham West and Royton by-election -

holding the seat with a majority of just under 11,000.

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has hailed the result as a 'vote

The UK Independence Party came second - but leader Nigel Farage

has blamed the loss on what he described as 'bent' postal votes.

A candlelit vigil has taken place at the scene of a mass shooting

Fourteen people died when a married couple opened fired on public health

workers in San Bernardino during a Christmas party.

US officials have revealed the pair were in contact with

Russia has criticised Britain's decision to launch air strikes

on so-called Islamic State targets in Syria, claiming it won't further

The Russian Foreign Minister, Sergei Lavrov, suggested the

United Nations resolution which Britain is operating under,

Meanwhile the Syrian Information Minister said the raids are merely

Rail fares will rise by up to 1.1% from January.

The industry body, the Rail Delivery Group, says it is the smallest price

Regulated fares, including season tickets, are capped at no more than

1%, but unregulated fares, like off-peak, leisure

tickets, can be increased at the discretion of the train companies.

Sixteen people have been killed in a Molotov attack

Petrol bombs are said to have been thrown at the building,

There are reports a disgruntled former employee may be

Mount Etna has erupted for the first time in two years.

The volcano on the Italian island of Sicily sent a plume of fire

The eruption caused the closure of the nearest airport on the Italian

mainland and left several villages covered in a thick layer of ash.

Those are the main news stories, notice board with jazz. But's two

time Tour de France winner Chris Froome has released his performance

data in an attempt to prove he is a clean writer. Fans were spitting at

him and throwing you ring at him at the Tour de France in July over

suspicions over his results. He has spoken to Richard Moore of Esquire

magazine about the data and hopes it will satisfy the doubters. If you

look at the evidence, frankly there is no evidence that he is dirty. The

only evidence is that he is very good and that he wins the Tour de

France. If you compare that with say, Lance Armstrong, from the

start, there was a lot of accumulating evidence. Not everyone

paid attention to it at the time but if you go back now there was

evidence from 1999 onwards. Chris Froome has been at the top since

September 2011, July 2012. There's no evidence that he is taking dope.

So I think it is very important for journalists to be evidence -based,

we can never be 100% sure that an athlete is clean but I don't think

someone's own team mates can be sure that their team mate is clean but as

sure as you can be, I say, there is no evidence that Chris Froome is

doping and that is an important thing to bear in mind. Benchmark the

lawn tennis Association has come in for criticism this week, first from

Andy Murray who said the RTA must do more to bring to the next generation

of British players. The latest comments are from Johanna Konta who

feels the RTA jeopardised her career when they cut funding. She says a

recent rise in the rankings is due to family and friends. If anyone's

career and dreams are jeopardised and think that is ever a healthy

position to be in. The success followed after that because of the

people around me. My coaches made a decision to stick with me and

continue our work and they sheltered me from a lot of the issues that

were going on, with my family. If I had not had my support system,

nothing would have happened. Remember Tim Peake. You might not

know him now but I'm sure he will be famous in a few months' time. His

mission to the International Space Station will launch in a couple of

weeks and amazingly he will be running the London Marathon in

space. He'll be on a treadmill watching the video of the course on

the big screen and he will begin the race at the same time as the

competitors on earth. There is no gravity in space so to combat that

he will wear a harness which will provide the downforce needed to keep

him on the treadmill. The thing I'm most looking forward to about

running the London Marathon in space is being able to interact with

everyone down on Earth. So I will be running it on the iPad and watching

myself running through the streets of London while orbiting the Earth

at 400 kilometres above the surface and going at 200 kilometres an

hour, a unique perspective to run the London Marathon from. Good luck

to everyone. Can he actually run the London Marathon if he is not in

London to run it! That's all the sport for now. Thank you.

we're on BBC 2 and the BBC News Channel until 11 this morning,

Let me read some comments from you about sugar. They are here, promise!

Karen, via e-mail, says there is no problem with multi-buying because it

is our choice. France and Germany to consume only half the amount that we

eat so if we eat too much we must take consequences. Another view

tweets that will power is not part of this debate. James on Twitter

says two-for-one is a customer choice and people should stop

looking for someone to blame, Stuart says that he loves a deal although

you are what you eat and supermarkets are not to blame

because apples can be priced at 89p for five apples. Thank you. We will

look at whether shock advertising campaigns could reduce the amount of

sugar that we eat. Do get in touch about all the subjects that we are

talking about today. Jeremy Corbyn will be visiting Oldham soon, in the

next half-hour, we hear, to celebrate Labour winning the

by-election. The winning candidate had a majority of just and 11

person. Ukip came second and Nigel Farage is claiming that it's due to

bent postal votes and the way the election was run. The northern

correspondence of the Guardian wrote last week that she knocked on doors

in Oldham when nobody spoke English, nobody had ever heard of Jeremy

Corbyn, yet they were all voting Labour. So there's a large ethnic

vote in our cities and vote Labour. In one box last might it was 99%

Labour and the electoral process is almost dead in this area is isn't it

a democracy? He has a vote, people have postal votes. Never in history

have we seen a box and 99% of people in the community vote for one party.

You wouldn't be complaining if 99% of the votes with the Ukip. Normally

it couldn't happen. What I am saying is that mass immigration, the change

to the demographic in Britain is fundamentally changing politics.

Owen Smith, in the Shadow Cabinet, criticised Nigel Farage's comments

earlier. Talking about streets where people couldn't speak English and

implying that people were voting Labour without knowing who Labour

were, I thought there was a hint of racism in what Michael implied. That

would be deeply unfortunate coming in fact reprehensible, if that is

what he implied that in what Nigel implied. I think he needs to answer

that. We can speak to our grasp and in Oldham. Any shred of evidence of

alleged corruption? What Ukip say is that they have seen some of the

ballot boxes contained 97% of votes in those boxes were a labour, that's

almost like an old-style eastern European dictatorship result. That

is what they say that they have seen. That's rather different from

the evidence. The only shred of doubt is that the Electoral

Commission said that Oldham was one of 16 areas that he thought was at

risk of electoral fraud. Labour say that if there's a shred of evidence

from Nigel Farage or anyone in Ukip they should report that to the

police because electoral fraud a criminal offence. It should be

reported directly to the police and so far, as far as we are aware, Ukip

have not done so. So apart from the large number of postal votes they

have given us no concrete evidence to substantiate their claims. Some

of our viewers have come at it, those people carrying postal votes,

did they have Royal Mail written on their high viz vest by any chance?

Another viewer says why should be sour grapes when a concern is

raised, it's a reasonable question. Why are there so many postal votes.

In terms of the size of the victory, I have read what you have read in

the past couple of weeks, websites and newspapers all predicting that

it would be very, very the Labour Party to win this by-election. It

has been a stranger for predictions! Some people predicted hung

parliament, and now they were suggesting that the Labour Party

might even be in danger of losing this seat. Some people might say

that shows you how out of touch the Westminster bubble is. Nigel Farage

had his own theory about why the Labour majority was so high, just

under 11,000, which increased its share of the vote on the general

election. There are some other theories, this area has a high

ethnic minority population, so some people were quite attracted to

Jeremy Corbyn and his opposition to air strikes in the Middle East for

example. I have spoken to Labour MPs who have been canvassing here. They

thought they'd get a relatively bad result, but between us, some of them

were hoping for that because they thought it would put pressure on

Jeremy Corbyn, who they see as an electoral liability. No surprise

that in the next half-hour or so, she will be here, you can see some

Labour activists gathering with placards, he wasn't here much during

this by-election, it was very much seen as a local fight by the local

council leader, Jim McMahon, who won for the Labour Party. Jeremy Corbyn

is coming here to claim the credit for this and he will call it a vote

of confidence. Padraig. More messages, Steve has tweeted, you

can't take Oldham away from Jeremy Corbyn, it was a vote of confidence

in his leadership and Paul says, please lay off the postal votes

scam, it is sour grapes from Ukip! German MPs are discussing

whether to send 1,200 soldiers to support the international coalition

fighting against self-styled A special session

of their parliament was called after the German Chancellor Angela

Merkel's cabinet approved They won't engage in combat

but will play a support role to So how will they fit in with the RAF

jets bombing targets in Iraq What's

the military strategy to defeat IS? Let's talk to

Rear Admiral Chris Parry, who spent more than three decades in

the Navy worked for the Ministry of In the studio is Dr Jill Russell,

from the war studies department Good morning. Rear Admiral Chris

Parry, welcome to the programme. A couple of newspapers are reporting

today that military officials want the Government against claiming

there were 70,000 Modric Syrian fighters ready to help eradicate IS,

does that sound credible? Not in the least. I can't identify where the

70,000 fighters are coming from. It is like saying there are 180

Manchester United supporters somewhere in south London. The

Government probably put a finger in the air, made a calculation and

thought that would be about the right number. Why would the

Government ignore the military men and women who potentially would know

was on the Government about the fight is on the ground? You would

have to ask the politicians. In my experience, military advice is not

always taken by politicians, who have different agendas. Dr Jill

Russell, what is coalition strategy on defeating IS? I think it is a bit

early to expect that there is a full on strategy. It will have to be a

strategy decided amongst all the parties that are going to sign on. I

think there is a broad sense that the first thing they will do is just

had some military action that proves the political intent of the Western

powers to act in Syria right now, and then as the governments get

together, the military 's to talk about it, they will sort out what

will he the best strategy and the tactics following from that. It is

worth remembering, for example, and it will be December eight on

Tuesday, that on December eight on Tuesday, that on December the Allies

did not know full well what their strategy was going to be to defeat

Germany in Japan -- and Japan. The most important thing was the

political development which brought the item states into the war allying

them with United Kingdom which ultimately led to the alliance with

the so free at union, those are the most important bits, the political

bets, to get lined up -- the alliance with the Soviet Union. It

is what are your strengths, what are your weaknesses, how can your

strengths be best played against the side that you are fighting. The

strategy does not need to be known right now. It will probably be a

part military, there will also be economic bets, there will be

political narrative parts that will be important. I saw on the cover of

one of the tabloids this morning that two women RAF pilots were

highlighted as participating in the air strikes, I think lots of these

sort of... Some of the cultural parts that will be important is the

Western ethos, things that Hilary Benn talked about in his comments.

Chris Parry, how would you describe the coalition strategy? In a

sentence, making it up as they go along. There are so many different

agendas and so much confusion of objectives in the area right now, it

is quite right, we have to see the political situation settle down

before you can apply the military forces in any coherent way. What is

quite clear is that, up until now, benighted state has simply been

containing Islamic State, there has been precious little effort expended

on destroying its capability. We have to move very quickly to

destroying it, to grading has happened but I would not say that

the effort has been enthusiastic and energetic until this point. Michael

Fallon told the BBC that the campaign will not be quick, I am

sorry that this is an annoying question journalists ask, how long

would you expect it to last? It takes as long as it takes, it

depends on the resources applied. If we were looking at this totally

objectively and is regarding the public and political appetite for

military intervention, this would be a full ground air action with ground

troops, at craft and unmanned vehicles, Islamic State could be

finished off within six months, I would suggest. -- aircraft and

unmanned vehicles. But the coalition is going for the air campaign, none

of its own soldiers on the ground. We could still be doing this in

three years if that is what we are doing. Dr Jill Russell, everybody

seems to agree that it will not be a military solution in the end, that

is part of it, would you agree? It will certainly not be a military

solution that resolves the problems in the Middle East that we have seen

in the last several years. It will be a good percentage of military

solution to dealing with ice is in its state form, at the very least.

-- with Isis. You see that a lot going on in Iraq is attacking lines

of communication and their ability to supply themselves in Mosul, I

think you will start to see more of that in Raqqa. Equal as they have

planted themselves on a piece of land, there are certain military

capabilities that can be wrote to bed to degrade their ability to

govern where they are. -- that can be brought to bear. Their ability to

hold the geography that they have taken could be degraded quite

quickly. That does not eliminate, however, the problem of Isis in the

region, but they could be moved out of those areas. You could see

cascading changes. Chris Parry, you said that the strategy of the

coalition was making it up as they go along, this might be another

annoying question... I think we have lost you. We have. We will never

hear my final annoying question. Thank you for coming on the

programme, apologies for the technical problems. Thanks to Chris

Parry and Jill Russell. A candlelit vigil has been held

in the Californian city of San Bernardino in memory

of the 14 people who died when a married couple opened fire

on public health workers who'd The FBI has taken charge

of the investigation after President Obama said the shootings

could be a terrorist attack. At this point,

this is now an FBI investigation. That's being done in cooperation

and consultation with local law It is possible that this

was terrorist related. One of the first responders to the

scene, Lieutenant Mike Madden, spoke As we entered into the conference

room, the situation was surreal. Again,

we prepare for an active shooter, we talk about sensory overload, they

try to throw everything at you to What you are seeing, what you are

hearing, what you are smelling. It was unspeakable,

the carnage that we were seeing. The number

of people who were injured, And the pure panic on the face

of those individuals who were still We got as many people out

as quickly as he could. We had approximately,

I estimated in talking with other officers who were with me,

probably 50 people responded past us And then we went further

into the building. That was

a difficult choice to have to make as well, passing people who we knew

were injured and needed assistance. But our goal at that time had to be

trying to locate the shooters Hussam Ayloush is

the executive director of the Council on American-Islamic

Relations in Los Angeles. He told me what the reaction has

been like from the local community Like all other Americans, American

Muslims have been devastated. They are in grief and mourning,

especially those who are local This is our area,

this is where we live, this is where We know people who work there,

we know people who go there So, like everyone else,

we were anxious, we were very Of course,

we are still in mourning for These are people's parents,

husbands, wives, many families who Heartfelt condolences

go to these families. What is the response to

the fact that President Obama said Any time somebody goes with such

viciousness and violence, there are motives that are hard to understand,

and terrorism is always one of them. It is too soon to confirm

that motivation, that motive. Either way, regardless of what the

motives might be, it's unequivocally condemned by all Americans,

including American Muslims. I know you have spoken to

Syed Farook's family. I wonder

if you could give an insight into I have spoken to

a gentleman who is married to the They wanted to make sure

they conveyed their grief. They are shaken as a family

by the news that one of their relatives, one of the close

ones from the family, could have caused so much death and suffering

and pain to so many people. They expressed their pain

and suffering. It reminded all of us that we need

to be in solidarity with each other. At the end of the day,

all of us were victimised Are you able to tell us who is

looking after Syed Farook Currently the baby is being held

by the CPS, the child protection service, our county

and state service to keep the baby. Initially,

the mother of Farook and his sister Once they were released, there is a

process that goes through the court. Unfortunately the county offices are

closed because of the incident, but it should be only a matter

of going through a process and the baby should be released to

her grandmother. The family, how did they react to

the fact that Farook had bee in communication with Islamist

extremists on social media? I spoke with them today,

just a few hours ago. They couldn't believe that somebody

who is so peaceful, at least, over the years had been peaceful,

somebody who had been soft-spoken. What could make somebody who

was living the American dream, he had a happy marriage, a good job,

a baby girl, We will be for him there for a

moment. At Chadderton town hall in Oldham, you can see Jeremy Corbyn.

... Winning this incredible result in the olden by-election. He stood

on a campaign of jobs, of people 's needs, opposing what Tory austerity

is about but also bringing investment, apprenticeships and a

good future to the people of Oldham. June -- gym, an experienced council

leader, brilliant local man, can speak up for the people of this

town, speaking parliament about them and bring the sort of decent,

prosperous opportunity future that we want for everybody, everybody in

this country. Congratulations, Jim McMahon, MP.

CHEERING REPORTER: Has he saved your

leadership, Mr Corbyn? Listen, this is a truly overwhelming

thing for a local lad, to represent the town he lives in Westminster is

a big issue. I am clear, I am sick to death of what the Tories are

doing in towns like Oldham. The Northern powerhouse rhetoric is

nothing more than a write-off of the North to create a pool house, I am

sick of it. It is about time we show the Tories that we have had enough.

-- to create a poorhouse. This campaign shows just how strong

our party is, not just here in Oldham but all over the country. It

shows the way we have driven the Tories back on tax credits, police

cuts, on their whole austerity agenda and narrative. It shows just

how strong, how deep-rooted and broad our party, the Labour Party,

is for the whole of Britain. Thank you very much, everybody.

CHEERING STUDIO: Lets just see if he is asked

any more questions. They are turning to go inside the Town Hall, Jim

McMahon, the new MP for Oldham West and Ryton. A view messages from you,

one pointed out that Jim McMahon was the only one who lived in the area

and knew it well. Another claims that Nigel Farage is a bad loser,

and says, get over yourself, you and your party have been sent packing by

the people of Oldham. Another comments, fraud and the media latch

on to wed rather than racist comments about voters not speaking

English. Tom says on Twitter, Labour won, bring the present government to

task instead of your bias. Another claims that the Ukip comments were

sour grapes. Keep your comments coming in. Still to come.

Do we need shock campaigns to help us reduce the amount

We'll have the last in our series of special reports.

We'll get reaction to the news that a controversial court

charge - which led to magistrate resignations - has been scrapped.

It's a subject we've covered several times on this programme over

The Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn says he is delighted with the result

after the Labour Party comfortably won the old West and Ryton

by-election with a majority of just under 11,000. Ukip came second,

Nigel Farage has blamed this on what he claims are bent postal votes.

Retract somebody was harvesting the postal votes! Complete summer grapes

from Nigel Farage. He needs to get used to it, I don't remember him

moaning about postal votes winner Ukip won a by-election, the truth is

that Labour won a great victory in Oldham.

A candlelit vigil has taken place at the scene of a mass shooting in

California. Fourteen people died when a married couple opened fired

on public health workers in San Bernardino during a Christmas party.

US officials have revealed the pair were in contact with extremists over

The French president, Francois Hollande, is to visit the air

carrier showed a goal which is conducting missions off these silly

and cost. It has 30 and warplanes on board and has intensified attacks on

IS since the Paris attacks last month.

Rail fares will rise by up to 1.1% from January.

The industry body, the Rail Delivery Group, says it is the smallest price

Regulated fares, including season tickets, are capped at no more than

1%. However unregulated fares, like off-peak, leisure

tickets, can be increased at the discretion of the train companies.

Sales of false Oregon cars fell last month in the wake of the diesel

emission scandal. Budget sales of folks work on cars. Although these

scandal broke in September car deliveries take a couple of weeks to

come through after you buy a car. So the data is significant today and it

shows that just under 13,000 Volkswagen branded vehicles were

bought in November. That is a 20% fall on last. However, this is the

big point. Skoda and Audi, they are all Volkswagen brands and they have

also all fall, only Bentley of the group saw sales rise. More generally

across the picture, people are buying more cars. We've seen a

return to growth and brands like Volkswagen, take rises there, 25%

rise in November alone of Foxhall cars. Perhaps because they are

selling the Astras, a new model. Robust growth in the car market. And

perhaps a little damage because of the emissions scandal although it is

across the entire brand. If you look at sitter, a different manufacturer,

we are also seeing falls, down 28%. The VW scandal is affecting others?

Or people just don't want to buy Citroen cars? When you look at this

data, it seems that people are buying, not of that they like and we

are seeing a real pick-up when people are buying fleets of

vehicles, corporate buyers, that accounts for a much larger

percentage of the rise in sales rather than people like you and I

buying cars. Those are the main stories today, now for the sport. In

the sport headlines to time Tour de France winner Chris Froome has

released his performance data in an attempt to prove he is a clean

rider. Fans was bedding at him and throwing Uren at him during the Tour

de France in July because of suspicions over his results. He is

hoping the data will satisfy that is. Johanna contra, the British

number one lady tennis player is the latest to criticise the lawn tennis

Association, she feels they jeopardised her career when they cut

of funding in November and says the rise in the world rankings is down

to family and friends. Arsenal is a midfielder Santi Cazorla could be

out until March with a knee injury. It is thought he sustained the

injury during the draw with Norwich on Sunday. And the astronaut Tim

Peake will be running the London Marathon in April on the

International Space Station. He'll be running on a treadmill with a

video of the course in front of him, starting at the same time as the

other competitors on earth. That's all the sports news this morning.

Thank you. What's the best way of reducing

the amount of sugar we all consume? Getting manufacturers to remove the

amount of sugar they put in food? Stopping supermarkets

from doing price promotion deals All this week we've been looking

at the link between sugar intake and obesity, and asking what can be

done to tackle the problem. Otherwise, experts predict almost

half of British people will be obese By then weight problems are expected

to cost the NHS ?50 billion a year. One public health issue

after another has demonstrated that to change outcomes,

you have to change attitudes, Are we ready for

the same hard-hitting campaigns that have helped in the fight

against drink driving and smoking? Our reporter Jim Reed's film

includes some public advertising campaigns in other countries which

you might find distrurbing. One medical condition will soon cost

us more than smoking, war, The country's most senior doctor has

warned that overweight is fast becoming the norm in British

society. So, the question,

for the government, the doctors, the food industry and for us -

how do we start to tackle what many think is the biggest threat to

public health in the 21st-century? Health warnings have changed

a bit since the 1960s. Back then, campaigns were gentle,

calming music, reassuring words, Our good friend Smokey the Bear will

be glad I stamped this one out. The only problem,

they didn't work very well. Every 15 cigarettes you smoke

will cause a mutation. The reality is,

when it comes to changing public behaviour, it's shock tactics

which are often most effective. Whether that is trying to get us to

put on a seat belt, Most cigarette smoke

in a room comes from the lit end. Most of us wouldn't dream

of driving home after three pints or lighting up

in a bar or restaurant these days. The question is, can the same kind

of tactics now work for obesity? Some other countries are moving

much faster than the UK on this. Some of these campaigns are too

graphic for us to show In Australia, for example,

they compare childhood obesity with And in the US, this commercial

follows a sick man in his 30s as his Five foot nine, 300 lbs,

32 years old. I still can't believe you give

the child french fries. I know, it's the only thing

that will make him stop. We showed some of the adverts to

groups of young parents in London. When you eat more than you need to

and aren't as active as you should be, fat doesn't just

build up around your waist. A toxic fat also builds up

around your vital organs, releasing dangerous levels of

chemicals that bring heart disease, You need a bit of hard-hitting stuff

sometimes to get the message across. We are all aware

of how bad saturated fat is, It's all right being aware

of saturated fat, but diets are We know all cigarettes are bad

for you. There is, though, not much wrong

with sugar and fat in moderation. So how do you point out the risk

in something that for most people There is now a danger that

has become a threat to us all. It was one

of the first campaigns that really tried to grab the public's attention

with a degree of fear. Peter Souter is one

of the most senior figures in The agency he runs came up with this

campaign in 1986, now seen by many You slowly reveal that something is

being carved, and that something is quite dark and ominous, and it turns

out to be the word AIDS, carved into something that looks like a

gravestone, that then topples over. If you ignore AIDS,

it could be the death of you. I think absolutely there is,

not only the possibility, but the need, for a really memorable,

powerful anti-obesity campaign. The thing that would make it a very

delicate piece of work, is to encourage people to eat healthily

and feed their children healthily, without making them feel that they

were being shouted at by the nanny And without creating another

problem, the kind of twin sister of It would have to be quite impactful,

quite hard-hitting, quite memorable, because changing physical behaviour

like what you eat is tough. You know how it is, you settle down,

put on a few kilos, One in two Australian

adults is overweight. For the moment then,

adverts like this are unlikely to In 30 years' time,

this kind of warning might look like scaremongering, or it might

look shrewd and far-sighted. But when I first realised it

was affecting my health, ... First, St Louis, Germany has voted

in favour of supporting the military campaign against Isil in Syria, they

will send soldiers although they will not be engaging in direct

combat, they will send 1200 soldiers, from Germany, to help the

coalition in their fight against IS in Syria. Now we can talk about

sugar and obesity. Let's talk to

Gavin Partington from the Soft Drinks Association, Ian Wright from

the Food and Drink Federation and Could I ask you all, not to have

your standard disagreements because I know you will have done that many

times before! On behalf of the audience I would like to generate

light rather than heat. Let's look at what you agree on. Do you all

acknowledge that sugar in cereal, sweets, soft drinks, etc, is not

good in the modern diet? I do not accept that sugar itself is not

good, it is about balance and proportion. There is a big obesity

crisis and we must tackle it and anything we can do to tackle it is

the right thing to do. Absolutely, sugar is high in our diets and yet

we still have to look at that and salt. The data suggests that some

people, especially young people, have too much sugar in their diet.

Over time, as long as it is in line with consumer choices. We definitely

need a reduction. You differ on how this should be done, set out your

positions. We want to look at reducing the amount of sugar and fat

gradually in foods and we want to see our other two calls from Action

on Sugar, it's to look at reducing the amount of sugar supplied in

public sector foods, not just in schools but in hospitals and looking

at labelling. We need a long-term calorie reduction plan which means

voluntary commitments from manufacturers to reduce sugar over

time but in line with consumer demand so that consumers do not go

elsewhere and top up their sugar elsewhere. We need to those under 16

with high-fat sugar and salt products. Not a band, voluntary. I

don't believe in a nanny state. I agree with the man on the film who

said that we need serious behavioural change campaigns to do

stuff like we saw from Australia. I thought that Australian ad was

fantastic. And I think my industry will be paired to help in the

creation of that underfunding. And voluntary not advertising to young

people, your members would go for that? They would. We would like

that, the ban on broadcasting extended to other media like digital

whether kids often access media these days, reformulation, we have

done this in spades in soft drinks were we have seen marked calorie

reduction in the last couple of years. It's 11% in the last four

years. In calories? 11% of calories being removed from the product, the

product reformulated. 150 calories? A significant amount more, many

products have had 30% of the sugar taken out and replaced by artificial

natural sweeteners. Consumers are shifting

Clearly, you would like your members to be left to do this voluntarily.

Maybe the scale of the challenges too great to rely solely on members

to reduce sugar voluntarily? I think a voluntary code and a voluntary

code and apologies set of actions is the way to go. Sorry to interrupt

you, you wouldn't want any kind of enforcement, but would that be

something that might be useful as well? I am not against measuring

against commitments. One of the problems with the previous regime,

is there were no measurements. It could not be said whether it had

succeeded or failed against the original objectives. I am very happy

for food and drink industry to be measured on the commitment it

makes. I agree, it needs to be accountable. Some major companies

are doing the right thing, the best thing, removing sugar, hoping to

reduce calories. They need to be accountable that we also had to

ensure that we reach out to the smaller companies, some which have

maybe not taken action in the past, and include them. Small

manufacturers find this difficult, it is difficult and costly to do

these reformulation is. We need to share the scientific expertise that

big companies have that small companies could use. Reformulation

means reducing the added sugar but you had to ensure that we reach out

to the smaller companies, some which have maybe not taken action in the

past, and include them. Small manufacturers find this difficult,

it is difficult and costly to do these reformulation is. We need to

share the scientific expertise that big companies have that small

companies could use. Reformulation means reducing the added sugar but

you have too to see how it affects the food, the taste and all sorts.

-- but you have to cook stuff to see. It has been slow but it has

definitely worked, it has had a reduction in about 15% of the amount

of salt that people are eating. But it has gone on for a long period. At

the moment, we feel like the salt reduction and reformulation is at a

standstill, we don't have any evidence on how it has been

evaluated, how it is happening. We want something stricter to be

implemented for salt. Some sort of monitoring, but not legislation? We

think there should be legislation. Ian and Gavin, when they say, our

members would be prepared to do this voluntarily, do you believe them? To

some extent, but I see all the popular:s, popular product, they are

still very high. -- all the popular colas. There are still low-fat, low

sugar versions. But we want to see a faster reduction. Could you not

reduce the sugar, quite slowly, over years, and the consumers would not

notice? If you go about 5% ago, it usually takes about two Magri years

for consumers to get used to a reduction, then you do it again. But

you can't do it consistently. Wide and you do that? We are, we have

been over the last ten years, that is why there has been mastered sugar

reduction. Alternatives have been created, diet versions have been

created, those with 30% have been created, but the original ones have

not been reduced. Some of them have. It is all about consumer choice.

That is my point, consumers need to have the choice and if they like the

popular, iconic Rodic, they will continue to buy them, but if we do

not reformulate them they will not turn to the diet ones. The data does

not back that up. Looking at what has happened in fizzy drinks,

figures show that people have switched away from regular product

and are buying more diet, low and no calorie products. Offering those

options, reformulating some products, provides a consumer choice

which can be encouraged. That the vast majority preferred the original

product, and we know that. Thank you, all of you, for being

interesting and moderate. Germany peers parliament has

approved proposals to support air strikes targeting so-called Islamic

State strikes in Syria. Our corresponding Jenny Hill is in

Berlin, what is the significance of this boat? An overwhelming majority

have voted in favour of sending troops and military equipment to aid

the international coalition in the fight against IS in Syria. In

practice, six Tornado reconnaissance jets will be sent, as will a

refuelling aircraft and a naval frigates, along with 1200 soldiers.

It is very different from the proposal approved by the British

government in that the role in Syria for Germany will be supporting.

Those troops will not be involved in active combat, they will be there

simply to support the other nations involved in those air strikes. That

is really important. Germany, judicially, has been reluctant to

get involved in this kind of operation. When it does, it sticks

to a training or peacekeeping role. This represents a little bit of a

shift in German foreign policy. It might not seem significant, but it

is. First of all, MPs here were very keen to show solidarity with brands

over what happened in Paris, secondly and arguably perhaps for

Germany more importantly, ministers here are in no doubt that Germany is

now very much a target for IS terror attacks. In the words of one

minister a few weeks ago, Germany is in the cross hairs of international

terrorism. As far as politicians are concerned, it is important to do

something in Syria to achieve some sort of peace in the region but also

to prevent any kind of Paris style attack on German soil. Thank you,

Jenny Hill in Berlin. It's a story we've been highlighting

on the show for a while - the criminal court charges brought

in this year that critics have The government wanted to make

offenders pay towards the cost of their court cases, with ?150

charges for people who pleaded guilty, but as much as ?1,200 to pay

if a defendant initially denied The charge was not means tested.

Lots of magistrates warned that the fines were unfair and encouraged

innocent he pulled to plead guilty to pay the lower fine. -- innocent

people. Dozens of magistrates resigned

in protest. I am joined by Bob Neill,

a Conservative MP and Chairman of the Justice Committee,

as well as a barrister. It was his government who brought

in the charges in April - but then only a few months later he

and his committee called In Bridgenorth in Shropshire,

we've got Richard Stilwell, who resigned as a magistrate

in protest at the charges. And in Bristol is Malcolm Robinson,

a practising magistrate and national chairman of the Magistrates

Association of England and Wales. Welcome. Bob Neill, go on, then?

Good morning. I am very pleased. The select committee published a report,

as you will remember, a few weeks ago. Full credit to Michael Gove for

having moved very quickly. All the evidence we had, accusing from the

Magistrates Association Normal Cockle, Right Up To The Lord Chief

Justice And Senior Judges, Said It Was Just Not Working Practice. For

the reasons you have given, it was not collect in the money it was

supposed to because there was no discretion. It was almost like

trying to get blood out of a stone in some cases. It also meant that in

some cases judges and magistrates were not having the scope to impose

compensation orders or orders for prosecution costs, where offenders

who are convicted have means, we thought that was a better means of

getting some money paid back by recompense. Richard, I think you

have been on the bench for over 20 years, before you resigned, was a

particular case the last straw? There were one of two, but there was

a particular case of a who had been brought into court and had been

brought into court in custody. Whilst he was in the cells, for some

reason, I think he was under the influence of alcohol at the time, he

puts on toner rolls down the toilet. -- he puts toilet rolls down the

toilet. He was brought into court, as he was in custody, the financial

penalty he faced, because first of all he had the compensation to the

police to employ cleaners to unblock the toilet, then he had a core

charge because he was appearing in court. Invariably, like so many

other defendants, he was a very limited financial means. The total

financial penalty including a fine, compensation and a victim surcharge

was well over ?400, which was, plainly, ridiculous. How the

Government expected many people with almost no financial means to

suddenly find hundreds and hundreds of extra pounds absolutely beggars

belief. In my own opinion, I think it is just a symptom of what is

wrong with the criminal justice system at a moment. I think it is

failing in many areas. Unfortunately, it is being allowed

to happen. I would like to just say that although I welcome Michael Gove

's announcement yesterday, I urge people to treat this with some

caution. We have not heard the detail yet. The detail, I am sure,

will be for coming, but the only detail yet. The detail, I am sure,

announcement so far is that a criminal court charges will no

longer be imposed from the 24th of December. What's Michael Gove has

said is that he wishes to consider a range of penalties, fines and

charges imposed. Michael Robinson, the principle of offenders paying a

bit towards the cost, that is all right, isn't it? Good morning.

Actually, my name is Mark Richardson, it does not matter. It

does matter. Not at all. The principle of simply paying towards

the court charge being right or wrong, that is a matter for

Parliament. What we said and what we are delighted that Michael Gove

listened to and used our council meeting yesterday to announce is

that the way it was working was just inappropriate, unjust and gave rise

to some of the ridiculous situations which Richard has just explained. We

are delighted that he listened to magistrates and has acted as rapidly

as he has in the way that he has, and we look forward to working with

him as he looks to ways in which he will reform all of the financial

penalties. It sometimes feels you are going into a Chinese takeaway

and ordering a meal, the number of financial positions you had to put

as a member of the bench. How much damage has this done to the justice

system, Mr Richardson? It certainly has not helped. The fact that Mr

Gove has lived up to his reputation of being an extremely good

Gove has lived up to his reputation and being prepared to tackle issues

which he sees as being dealt with inappropriately, he has dealt with

its rapidly. I hope that any damage is only temporary. I wished we had

more time, but we don't. Thank you for your Richardson, Bob Neill and

Richard Stillwell. Joanna's presenting the programme

on Monday where she'll be talking about violent children who attack

their parents. Have a brilliant weekend, thank you

for watching today.