11/12/2015 Victoria Derbyshire


11/12/2015

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welcome to the programme. I'm Joanna Gosling in for Victoria,

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a national risk by England's most senior doctor.

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It is not just a health issue, this matter is about advertising,

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industry, how they formulate food, how it is sold.

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That's the Chief Medical Officer - she's putting forward a manifesto

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With a deadline looming, climate change negotiators in Paris

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need extra time to seek a historic agreement on global warming.

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Plus - how you can influence a major review into residential care homes

:00:42.:00:44.

Hello, good morning, welcome to the programme,

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As ever we're really keen to hear from you throughout the programme.

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Texts will be charged at the standard network rate.

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You can of course you can watch the programme online wherever

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you are - via the BBC news app or our website bbc.co.uk/victoria,

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and you can also subscribe to all our features on the news app,

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by going to add topics and searching 'Victoria Derbyshire'.

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Let's start with that warning from the Chief Medical Officer that

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obesity is one of the biggest risks to women's health and must be

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Dame Sally Davies says the problem should be declared a 'national risk'

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That is alongside terrorism, war and flooding.

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In 2013 more than half or women aged 34 to 44 were classified

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And almost two thirds of women aged 45 to 54 fell into this category.

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Obesity can lead to a number of serious and potentially

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life-threatening conditions such as type 2 diabetes,

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heart disease, stroke and some types of cancer.

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Dame Sally's report calls for action across all of society to prevent

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obesity from shortening women's lives and affecting quality

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Her report focuses on a number of axe specs of women's health

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including the risks of being overweight during pregnancy. A lot

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of women do not understand that they should not eat for two. While you

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should not diet aggressively, you have to limit weight gain to what

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the baby is, and we need everybody to be aware and make sure the

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opportunities are picked up but most women don't understand that being

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overweight can increase the risks of breast cancer which is going up, and

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we need to help women understand how it limit like in many ways, and by

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helping women and everybody, we need to make healthy options the easy

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option, and that is why I have asked the government to raise this is a

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national risk because it is not just a health issue, this is about

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advertising, industry, how they formulate food, how it is sold,

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whether we have, which we should not have, cheap offers on unhealthy

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food. It is about education of children, active transport, it is a

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cross government 's and crossed societal issue and we all have role

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to play in maintaining weight. We have a London GP in the studio and a

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size acceptance campaign. Thank you for coming in. Dame Sally says

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obesity in women should be ranked alongside terrorism and flooding in

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public health terms. That shows how serious a problem it is and I agree

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with Dame Sally, it is a public health catastrophe that we are

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walking into and have been for a number of years and if we do not

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address it, it is going to be subsuming vast amounts of health

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money but will also contribute to a great deal of illness and a great

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deal of problems as we go forward. Quantify it. Why is it a threat?

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Take diabetes or example which accounts for about 11% of the NHS

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budget and the biggest factor for diabetes is obesity so extrapolates

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that, vast amounts of our money, ?120 billion a year is spent on a

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preventable condition,. -- preventable condition, diabetes. For

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most women who have knee replacements, they are obese. There

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were all sorts of other issues. When you are looking at figures and over

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half of women are obese as adults, and we are seeing that in children,

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20-30% of children are obese, it is like smoking. We cannot sit back and

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say it is a personal responsibility, we actually have to say a good

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government has to act on the public health and do something about it.

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How do you see it? This is deplorable. It is scare tactics. It

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is talking to people in such a way that if they feel they are

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overweight than they are destined for a terrible future which is not

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true. Statistics do not bear that out, though your studies than this.

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It shows if you are moderately overweight, you live longer, there

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is a study in Spain. I would like to say that if you look at the National

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office of statistics, you will see that the biggest killer for women in

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the UK is dementia and our signers, followed by heart disease and

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respiratory problems. This report is nonsense. You are talking about

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women's health, we need to draw about something much more serious

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than if they are overweight. -- talk about. To be honest, Dame Sally is

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the most senior doctor in the country. Why is she not addressing

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dementia and hours I must, the biggest killers? Why is she not

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talking about respiratory health? -- Alzheimer's. There is a slight

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skewing of the figures. We are talking about obesity which, like

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smoking, want abused vast amount of... Do you think larger people

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like to be large? Do not think we have tried? If it were preventable,

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treatable, we would do it. I am a larger person. We try, we work and

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we know that obesity is not this simple... I agree. To equate it with

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health is really dangerous. I am absolutely in agreement with you. I

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am a GP and I see this every single day, this is not about attacking

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individual women. It is an attack. Can I finish? What it is about is a

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public health issue. This has to be done at government level, starting

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with children and advertising. This is not about gaining women. I never

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say to a woman, look, have you thought about your weight? It is

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obvious, we look at ourselves in mirrors ten or 15 times a day. This

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is about saying we cannot do nothing. We cannot allow the

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population to get more unhealthy, fatter, more morbidly obese. You are

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equating it with being unhealthy. Do you dispute the statistics, the

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claims, that obesity does lead to other issues? There are risk

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factors. It is a possible risk but it is not a fact. You are talking

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like it is a fact. If you it is not a fact. You are talking

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you will get cancer. it is not a fact. You are talking

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If you are obese, you it is not a fact. You are talking

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likely to get diabetes. I think we are in agreement. What I think Dame

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Sally is saying is that it is not about blaming the individual.

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Sally is saying is that it is not started work as a doctor, we were

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beginning to find out the effects of cigarette smoking and it has taken

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us 40 years to do something and try to reduce the

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us 40 years to do something and try smoking, reduce the levels of lung

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cancer. It has taken 40 years. You are comparing an addiction with

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obesity. Individual smokers have the right to smoke. Why, why is smoking

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allowed? You are trying to make comparisons that do not hold up.

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There has been a lifestyle change over the last 40 years which cause

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people to get larger, we do not do manual work, or do 12 hour shifts,

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we have different food sources which are toxic. We have a completely

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different lifestyle. We have to look at the other factors. It is

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complicated. You are talking like there is then easy prescription. I

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am not! Should the government not get involved and say it is

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happening? I would love them to get involved. Is that not happening with

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Dame Sally? Is a scare tactic. Why? It does not give us a solution. If

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you would give me a solution, Dame Sally, if you are listening, please

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give us access for free to... Get our health back to normal. This is

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the start of a process. It is not about individual responsibility. For

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example, children's cereals... Can I finish? You are making a point and I

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am responding. It should not be on the shelf. That is a good place to

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start and stop what Sally is saying is that we need the government to

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look at this urgently or we will walk headlong... Smaller people are

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at risk as well. Everybody is at risk. There is watching and says,

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this annoys me, people know they are overweight and do nothing. I had

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heart failure three years ago and speaking to the consultants, I gave

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up alcohol, sweet and fried food. Aida what I want within reason and

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feel better for it. It is not hard to lose weight and he was the lead

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most things within reason and I do exercise. It is down to them.

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Fantastic, great. Anybody who improves their lifestyle, I am all

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for it but I would like to make it easier for people to do this stop do

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not imagine people are out there stuffing themselves. People are

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dieting and trying to lose weight but that is not the bottom line. The

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bottom line is our overall lifestyle has incredible risks attached to it

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which the government is not looking at. Why is their sugar in lasagne or

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almost all the foods we have on our shelves? Are you blaming external

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factors? She is right. The supermarket is not providing good

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food. It is harder to get good and natural food, and more expensive for

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the average family who are also poor. It is very difficult. You pick

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a ready meal, it is loaded with rubbish food. The government needs

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to intervene in our food source. You are absolutely right, there are

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things you can do at an individual level and things you can do as a

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public health level. You are absolutely right and some individual

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choices, all well and good, but I go back to making an individual choice

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to wear a seat belt, some people did and some did not, until it was

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tackled at government level. It was made illegal to not wear a seat

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belt. Are you making it illegal to be fat? No. What are you talking

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about?! She throws things out and there is no solution. It is about a

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whole series of solutions. If it were as easy as putting a seat belt

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on, it will be fine but it is about a series of solutions, some of which

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you articulated. Not putting sugar in food that does not need sugar.

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Looking at children's food, looking at access to exercise. Why does the

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report not say that? Equating it with terrorism? Outrageous. I

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suspect the report references a lot of studies which have gone before

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which starts to look at some of the solutions. What Sally is saying is

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that we need government action on this because if we don't get

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government action right across the board... We should not have badly

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worded report which scare people. I do not want to be terrified to stop

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maybe we need to be scared into the ill effects of obesity. We have been

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scared for 40 years. Has it worked? I am not sure it has been 40 years.

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40 years ago there was very little obesity. That has been dieting and

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dieting pressure for many decades, has it worked? What works? This

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report does not work. It has been great to have you in the studio

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talking the bus lane. Lots of people getting in touch as they watch you.

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We appreciate your time. -- talking robust lay. Simon Says we need to

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tax bad food and subsidised healthy food.

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Thanks for joining us today - still to come: No decision

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on a third runway at London's Heathrow until next year.

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One business group accuses the Government of being "gutless" -

:14:23.:14:24.

And Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn is under mounting pressure from some

:14:25.:14:30.

of his own MPs to disown the Stop the War Coalition -

:14:31.:14:33.

The main news this morning: Obesity is such a threat to women's health

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that it should be declared a national risk - according

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We need to make women understand how it limits life in many ways

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and we need to, by helping women, and everyone make healthy options

:14:52.:14:54.

Climate change talks in Paris are extended until Saturday,

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to try to reach agreement on tackling global warming.

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Businesses and local communities have reacted furiously

:15:13.:15:14.

after the Government announced a delay in deciding

:15:15.:15:16.

whether to expand London's Heathrow Airport.

:15:17.:15:22.

Former Glasgow Rangers footballer Arnold Peralta has been shot dead

:15:23.:15:24.

while on holiday in his hometown in Honduras.

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Coming up just after 10am we'll be talking about the latest twist

:15:40.:15:45.

It concerns the Uefa President Michel Platini and his appeal

:15:46.:15:52.

against a 90-day suspension from football to the Court

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He appealed to be 'allowed to work' during the investigation

:15:55.:15:57.

into whether he received an unlwaful payment from the outgoing

:15:58.:16:00.

But the Court has decided not to end his suspension -

:16:01.:16:03.

they have though ordered Fifa not to extend his ban.

:16:04.:16:06.

It's bad news for Platini, who many see as the favourite

:16:07.:16:08.

to become the next President of Fifa if he is cleared.

:16:09.:16:14.

We'll be speaking to our sports news correspondent Richard Conway,

:16:15.:16:16.

who's in Paris, about what exact the ruling will mean.

:16:17.:16:20.

It means he cannot be in the draw at the weekend or the executive

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committee meeting. And on the field both Liverpool

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and Spurs finished top of their groups in the Europa League

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after their results last night. I'll be back with more just

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after 10am, see you shortly. It's a decision - not

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to make a decision - over whether a third runway should

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be built at Heathrow. The Government has been widely

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criticised for delaying its plans on airport expansion

:16:45.:16:46.

in the south-east of England Business groups accused

:16:47.:16:48.

ministers of being "gutless", arguing the delay is bad

:16:49.:16:50.

for the UK economy. But - the Government says it's

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because further research on the environmental

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impact was needed. This was the reaction from some

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of the residents of Harmondsworth, which would be largely demolished

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to make way for a third runway We don't want to be hanging on any

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longer, we have been doing this years and years, it is not fair

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on everybody, and there were lots of elderly people

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who do not want to move, He said, no ifs, no buts,

:17:14.:17:16.

he gave is a promise, He said, no ifs, no buts,

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he gave us a promise, They have been trying to get

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a runway here for 40 years and every time they have fallen

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at the last hurdle. It is not business, it is people,

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and they are putting We have a manifesto pledge

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from the Prime Minister. John Longworth from the British

:17:39.:17:53.

Chamber of Commerce says the delay The government has been completely

:17:54.:17:57.

gutless like so many of the decisions

:17:58.:18:00.

regarding the economy. They have ducked it,

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we have been waiting 25 years and more now for this

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decision to be made. There was a very long and detailed

:18:05.:18:09.

study at great expense with the Davies Commission

:18:10.:18:12.

and they have simply ignored it, Our Political Correspondent,

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Iain Watson is at Westminster - politics at play here

:18:13.:18:17.

by the Conservatives? What are they saying there?

:18:18.:18:27.

That's right, the Government is saying they had to take into account

:18:28.:18:30.

environmental concerns and there was a risk of a legal challenge.

:18:31.:18:37.

Nonetheless, there is a huge suspicion this is convenient for the

:18:38.:18:42.

Government because they faced the prospect of having the London

:18:43.:18:47.

mayoral candidate Zac Goldsmith for next May, long-standing opponent of

:18:48.:18:49.

Heathrow, clashing with the government if the this issue was

:18:50.:18:54.

taken to go ahead with the runway before Christmas. The

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taken to go ahead with the runway they would give a clear direction

:18:57.:18:58.

but they have not. What they said is other options including

:18:59.:19:01.

but they have not. What they said is runway at Gatwick and even extending

:19:02.:19:04.

the existing runway at Heathrow is still up for grabs. The current

:19:05.:19:08.

London still up for grabs. The current

:19:09.:19:09.

today. We already still up for grabs. The current

:19:10.:19:13.

residents at Heathrow talking about Fudge, this is how

:19:14.:19:19.

residents at Heathrow talking about put it. There is an element of

:19:20.:19:26.

political fudgarama. put it. There is an element of

:19:27.:19:29.

getting clearer to people in government that this is getting more

:19:30.:19:35.

and more undeliverable. When you talk about Heathrow meeting

:19:36.:19:37.

Government policy on noise and air quality it recipe card. It is a

:19:38.:19:44.

stated policy on aviation that you cannot expose stub stanch on numbers

:19:45.:19:47.

of people to aviation cannot expose stub stanch on numbers

:19:48.:19:54.

Heathrow will inflict unacceptable noise pollution, 55 decibel is and

:19:55.:19:59.

more on another 300,000 people. There isn't another city in the

:20:00.:20:02.

world that would dream of doing that. Boris Johnson speaking on BBC

:20:03.:20:08.

radio earlier this morning. His opposition to Heathrow is

:20:09.:20:11.

well-known. He is now resurrecting his idea of having this four runway

:20:12.:20:16.

airport east of the Thames Estuary. The thing that was interesting was

:20:17.:20:21.

he effectively said in government people are perhaps moving away from

:20:22.:20:25.

the idea of a third Heathrow runway. The assumption had by and large been

:20:26.:20:28.

that the government would probably, after a three-year Airports

:20:29.:20:32.

Commission after a three-year Airports

:20:33.:20:37.

but with other measures to mitigate environmental impacts and for

:20:38.:20:40.

political reasons as we discussed perhaps put it off. But this morning

:20:41.:20:44.

the Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin passed new doubt on that

:20:45.:20:45.

kind of analysis and You keep talking

:20:46.:20:50.

about a third runway. Please get off the fixation

:20:51.:20:52.

of a third runway. No, it could be a second

:20:53.:21:00.

runway at Gatwick. Right, so you might reject

:21:01.:21:04.

the Davies Commission report? The commission report said

:21:05.:21:07.

that all three options It did recommend

:21:08.:21:11.

Heathrow but it did say that all of the three

:21:12.:21:18.

options are viable options. Interestingly Patrick McLoughlin

:21:19.:21:27.

quizzed by John Humphrys, being very clear that Gatwick is still an

:21:28.:21:33.

option. To some extent people will be lobbying for the next six months

:21:34.:21:36.

and that's why business leaders, in the words of the Institute of

:21:37.:21:39.

directors, are tearing out their hair, they wanted a clear direction

:21:40.:21:43.

at least before Christmas. The Transport Secretary says if it is

:21:44.:21:46.

taken before next summer that Government will be on course to

:21:47.:21:52.

provide extra airport capacity in south-east England by 2030 but asked

:21:53.:21:55.

if he would definitely go ahead with the decision next summer he said,

:21:56.:21:59.

hopefully. Even that doesn't appear to be certain.

:22:00.:22:04.

Oh dear. Thank you. We have some more comments on obesity in women.

:22:05.:22:11.

John says as a 60-year-old man I've heard so mini campaigns about

:22:12.:22:15.

women's health, what about men? Overeating is a personal choice and

:22:16.:22:18.

about self-discipline, sadly lacking in today's society.

:22:19.:22:23.

On Twitter, do you think larger people like being large? Do you

:22:24.:22:26.

think we like dieting, we try, we work.

:22:27.:22:31.

So many folk in denial about obesity, it's getting ridiculous,

:22:32.:22:35.

your life, your body. Now to climate change.

:22:36.:22:40.

There's no deal expected today from the climate change summit

:22:41.:22:42.

in Paris - but as the discussions continue, the pressure really

:22:43.:22:45.

is on for negotiators to come up with an agreement that all 200

:22:46.:22:48.

The world is heating up and it's happening quickly.

:22:49.:22:52.

13 of the 14 warmest years were recorded this century and 2015

:22:53.:22:55.

Among the effects of this is that sea levels are rising -

:22:56.:23:04.

they've risen on average about 19cm globally since 1900 -

:23:05.:23:07.

posing a threat to islands and coastal communities.

:23:08.:23:10.

It also means more extreme weather like floods,

:23:11.:23:16.

storms and droughts - which could of course affect food

:23:17.:23:18.

By the end of this century, if nothing is done, temperatures

:23:19.:23:23.

Negotiators have been working through the night to thrash

:23:24.:23:27.

There is still a question mark over whether the deal will look to limit

:23:28.:23:33.

global warming to 1.5 or 2 degrees celsius -

:23:34.:23:35.

a figure hugely important to vulnerable countries.

:23:36.:23:44.

That figure has been lowered from what they originally thought.

:23:45.:23:48.

And there's still debate over developing countries asking for more

:23:49.:23:50.

money to help them cut carbon emissions.

:23:51.:23:52.

Right now the pressure is on to come up with an agreement,

:23:53.:23:55.

I think one of the things that is driving the Paris conference

:23:56.:24:02.

is an absolute desire not to make the mistakes that

:24:03.:24:05.

Rather than bringing the political leaders in at the end to sign

:24:06.:24:09.

the deal, they are bringing them in at the start to get

:24:10.:24:12.

They really want to make sure they don't make those mistakes

:24:13.:24:16.

but that does not guarantee that won't happen.

:24:17.:24:18.

There are likely to be lots of barriers, lots of countries

:24:19.:24:21.

that won't agree, lots of arms that will need to be twisted

:24:22.:24:25.

and you could end up with an agreement at all costs

:24:26.:24:30.

which means you might be very weak or quite easy in terms of trying

:24:31.:24:37.

to get an agreement between 196 countries, turning to a massive

:24:38.:24:39.

If that happens, it won't address the issues of climate change,

:24:40.:24:44.

it won't send clear signals to the future and we will all be

:24:45.:24:47.

If you think this hasn't happened before, I refer you to Copenhagen

:24:48.:24:52.

in 2009, the exact same thing happened.

:24:53.:24:59.

Vanuatu - a string of more than 80 islands in the Pacific Ocean -

:25:00.:25:04.

is on the front line in the climate change debate.

:25:05.:25:08.

Rising sea levels are putting its very future in jeopardy.

:25:09.:25:13.

Islanders hope some sort of deal can be reached at the climate change

:25:14.:25:16.

conference to make sure that whatever happens,

:25:17.:25:18.

We feel very strong that in developed countries they need

:25:19.:25:49.

Anything above two degrees, that is the end of small island

:25:50.:25:55.

countries, and we feel that political leaders have to commit

:25:56.:25:57.

My name is John Kalmatak and I lived here for 76 years.

:25:58.:26:11.

The water is getting higher and higher all the time.

:26:12.:26:16.

That is why it is taking out our way of life.

:26:17.:26:20.

Do you think there is a future for the island?

:26:21.:26:24.

I don't know exactly but I think if we don't look after it,

:26:25.:26:27.

Maybe the water will take out all of the island.

:26:28.:26:50.

Do you worry about the future for Vanuatu and your communities?

:26:51.:26:54.

We need to reduce the carbon emissions of the atmosphere

:26:55.:27:02.

because some developing countries have more pollution so we need

:27:03.:27:14.

to reduce it, we need to reduce pollution.

:27:15.:27:18.

So climate change is real as far as the people of Vanuatu

:27:19.:27:21.

are concerned, and many other countries, it is happening

:27:22.:27:27.

at the moment, and the message from here,

:27:28.:27:31.

I think, is they hope in Paris some sort of deal can be done to make

:27:32.:27:35.

sure whatever happens with climate change in the future,

:27:36.:27:38.

in places like this they are as well prepared as they can be.

:27:39.:27:49.

So the pressure is on but realistically how do you bring 200

:27:50.:27:52.

countries together and solve a problem like climate change?

:27:53.:27:54.

Let's talk now to Professor Sir Brian Hoskins, Director

:27:55.:27:58.

of the Grantham Institute for Climate Change at

:27:59.:28:02.

Imperial College London and a member of the UK Committee

:28:03.:28:05.

on Climate Change and in Paris - Jennifer Morgan, Global Director

:28:06.:28:08.

of the Climate Program at the World Resources Institute.

:28:09.:28:15.

Thank you for joining us. Jennifer, you are in Paris. They already said

:28:16.:28:20.

they cannot do it today so they want to push back the deadline until

:28:21.:28:26.

tomorrow, how much hope do you have? I'm still cautiously optimistic.

:28:27.:28:30.

They negotiated overnight, they made progress, but every country just has

:28:31.:28:33.

to go further, they have too reached to the extreme of what they can do

:28:34.:28:38.

here. It is all still within reach for stop what still needs to be

:28:39.:28:45.

done? What are the sticking points? There are three sticking points.

:28:46.:28:48.

Number one is the developed countries need to come forward with

:28:49.:28:54.

something that is fair, that shows they are going to differentiate and

:28:55.:28:56.

have developing countries do more but not had everything the same as

:28:57.:29:00.

developed countries. They need to come together around a clear

:29:01.:29:02.

long-term goal that will shift investments into clean energy, and

:29:03.:29:08.

they need to have a solidarity package for the poorest countries to

:29:09.:29:11.

help them deal with the impacts of climate change. Sir Brian Hoskins,

:29:12.:29:18.

they are changing the goalposts, aren't they? This 1.5 degrees has

:29:19.:29:23.

come onto the table when they can't agree on two, do you hold out hope

:29:24.:29:30.

1.5 can be achieved? 1.5 is an aspiration and it shows the

:29:31.:29:34.

seriousness of the issue. People saying even two deg is not going to

:29:35.:29:38.

be easy for everyone, so if we could make it 1.5 as a limit that would be

:29:39.:29:43.

great. The aspiration is there and I will come that. The reality of what

:29:44.:29:47.

people are going to do then comes out the other side. What do you

:29:48.:29:55.

think should be done? We know that to limit climate change to anything

:29:56.:30:01.

like 1.5-2d, there is only a certain amount of carbon emissions we can

:30:02.:30:05.

have, we house gases. There is a cake there. Explain how quickly the

:30:06.:30:10.

cake is being doubled up. We've already gobbled up two thirds of the

:30:11.:30:15.

cake when we did not know we were doing it when we started so there is

:30:16.:30:19.

about a third left. At the present rate depending on your target it may

:30:20.:30:25.

be 20-25 years at the present rate. It means we have got to get global

:30:26.:30:28.

emissions peaking as soon as possible, and then going down

:30:29.:30:33.

rapidly. Quite what going down rapidly to maybe nearly zero after

:30:34.:30:39.

2050. We have got to get that peaking and going down at a rapid

:30:40.:30:44.

rate. Is that achievable? Is not the case that 20 years hence there would

:30:45.:30:52.

need to be further retrenchment? It is achievable but only if we start

:30:53.:30:57.

now. If we say this is difficult, let's leave it 5-10 years and come

:30:58.:31:02.

back and reassess then 1.5 degrees will be way out of beam and probably

:31:03.:31:07.

two deg as well. It is realistic but the longer we leave it the more

:31:08.:31:12.

difficult it is, and more impossible it is. We saw the example of

:31:13.:31:18.

Vanuatu. Minds very much focused because of the direct impact that

:31:19.:31:23.

direct climate change will have on those islands threatening their

:31:24.:31:26.

resistance. With other countries affected to a much lesser extent and

:31:27.:31:30.

their voices louder in the discussions, what are the prospects

:31:31.:31:32.

of this coming good? I think one of the important dynamic

:31:33.:31:44.

is that these small and vulnerable countries which includes the islands

:31:45.:31:49.

but also Bangladesh and Costa Rica, these small voices are pushing the

:31:50.:31:53.

big layers to go further because it is about their existence, so I think

:31:54.:31:57.

that's dynamic, finding those solutions, is ill moving here and we

:31:58.:32:03.

have to do hope that China, the US and India listen and respond. It

:32:04.:32:09.

does feel like a broken record. Not you, but the whole debate about

:32:10.:32:12.

whether targets can be agreed and acted upon. It does sound like a

:32:13.:32:20.

broken record but this is a different moment. It is a

:32:21.:32:23.

broken record but this is a of international cooperation and it

:32:24.:32:26.

is a moment where developed and developing countries are working

:32:27.:32:30.

together. There is a high ambition coalition which includes the United

:32:31.:32:33.

States and Europe, and Islands and Latin America. There is the

:32:34.:32:40.

countries who are fighting for this ambitious path. There are others who

:32:41.:32:45.

are fighting to keep their oil revenues moving forward, that is the

:32:46.:32:52.

battle that is happening. Brian, for all of us, what difference will it

:32:53.:32:53.

make all of us, what difference will it

:32:54.:32:56.

everything that needs to be done is done? In the UK, we have the climate

:32:57.:33:04.

change act which amazingly put us on a path to say we would reduce carbon

:33:05.:33:09.

emissions by 80% Y 2050, so we are on that path and that is what is

:33:10.:33:16.

needed. So the UK started down that path, there have been wobbles, but

:33:17.:33:24.

we are on that path. -- by. Really, I am quite optimistic that this is a

:33:25.:33:28.

challenge which will make economies grow rather than the opposite. We

:33:29.:33:33.

have lived in the old fossil fuel economy and we need a challenge and

:33:34.:33:38.

that may make life that much better. Obviously we think of different ways

:33:39.:33:41.

of organising our cities and lives to use less carbon and to develop

:33:42.:33:46.

new industries that will be needed. Nothing can be done quickly, though.

:33:47.:33:51.

Which is why we need to start now. Many things will take ten or 20

:33:52.:33:57.

years to get going but we start now. Electric cars, we are getting

:33:58.:34:01.

charging points around, they are coming through, and we hope they

:34:02.:34:04.

will dominate the market in 20 years' time, so we can do things but

:34:05.:34:08.

we have to start now and go down the path. Some things will take a long

:34:09.:34:14.

time. Gennifer, any recriminations in Paris where some countries will

:34:15.:34:18.

say, we have been getting our act together and making the difference,

:34:19.:34:21.

and finger-pointing at other countries who have not? No,

:34:22.:34:27.

actually, there has been a spirit of constructive engagement. I think all

:34:28.:34:32.

of these national plans which came into Paris, 180 countries, the

:34:33.:34:38.

commitments they are making, there is tension. There are different

:34:39.:34:43.

positions and they need to shift more to come together but there is

:34:44.:34:47.

not a recriminations spirit here, it is a spirit of cooperation. Brian?

:34:48.:34:59.

Yes, we should be proud of what is going on, this is an amazing

:35:00.:35:03.

discussion between countries who have limited to go a long way down

:35:04.:35:08.

the line and given the pledges there, we might keep local warning

:35:09.:35:15.

to 2.7% or three degrees which is a long way to go. So we have to go

:35:16.:35:20.

that little bit more. -- 2.7 degrees. This is not easy because

:35:21.:35:24.

people are promising things that are difficult to do and then they are

:35:25.:35:29.

saying, we will help you do that, and give and take, so there is an

:35:30.:35:32.

amazing international discussion we have not seen anywhere else. It is

:35:33.:35:37.

good to speak to you both, thank you very much. Please have carried out

:35:38.:35:49.

an intelligence led operation. Armed officers were in attendance. A man

:35:50.:35:59.

received gunshot wounds in this. It is in Would Green in North London.

:36:00.:36:10.

-- Wood Green. We will check out that intelligence led operation

:36:11.:36:15.

which results resulted in a man receiving gunshot wounds. No clarity

:36:16.:36:20.

on his condition but we will keep you updated on that. A huge response

:36:21.:36:25.

from you this morning on the conversation we had earlier on women

:36:26.:36:30.

and obesity. A lot of you are disagreeing with Catherine who was

:36:31.:36:34.

in the studio. She is as size acceptance campaigner. Diane says

:36:35.:36:37.

you are responsible for what you put in your mouth. What is wrong with

:36:38.:36:41.

scare tactics? Maybe we need to be scared. Camilla says I believe all

:36:42.:36:49.

people, men or women, should have responsibility to take care of

:36:50.:36:52.

themselves. At these people never looked happy and you feel they are

:36:53.:36:55.

an comfortable and haven't attitude. In America, I notice obesity has got

:36:56.:36:59.

more in the last five years stop unfortunately I believe the UK is

:37:00.:37:03.

following. Another person says I have never seen so much rubbish,

:37:04.:37:10.

being obese is unhealthy. At the end of the day, we all have choices

:37:11.:37:15.

about what we stick in our mouth. I lost five stone, all I did was buy

:37:16.:37:19.

fresh meat and vegetables. John says we need attacks similar to alcohol

:37:20.:37:27.

and tobacco. -- a tax. All taxes raised should go to the NHS and care

:37:28.:37:32.

for the elderly. An anonymous person on Twitter says I am not sure women

:37:33.:37:35.

need lectures about the dangers of obesity in the same way that smokers

:37:36.:37:38.

don't need lectures about cigarettes. Thank you for all of

:37:39.:37:43.

your comments. To keep on getting in touch with us on that.

:37:44.:37:57.

With France still in a state of emergency, rights groups have

:37:58.:38:00.

warned it could lead to widespread abuses of civil liberties -

:38:01.:38:02.

in particular those of French Muslims.

:38:03.:38:04.

The emergency laws were declared following the Paris terrorist

:38:05.:38:06.

attacks nearly a month ago, which killed 130 people.

:38:07.:38:08.

They give special powers to French authorities to carry out raids

:38:09.:38:11.

on houses without judicial oversight.

:38:12.:38:12.

Some French Muslims have now started legal action to contest raids

:38:13.:38:14.

BBC Asian Network's Divya Talwar reports from Paris.

:38:15.:38:18.

An ordinary evening at this restaurant in Paris

:38:19.:38:20.

Dozens of armed police officers raided the restaurant,

:38:21.:38:28.

they forced open doors to search all the rooms in the building.

:38:29.:38:31.

Staff say the police found nothing and gave no reason

:38:32.:38:34.

They are worried the business would be targeted again

:38:35.:38:40.

because the owners and employees are all Muslim.

:38:41.:38:42.

Firstly, we saw the police passing in the street and two minutes

:38:43.:38:47.

after they came in, and then ten more, and they asked just not

:38:48.:38:52.

to move and leave our hands on the table, not to use

:38:53.:38:55.

the telephone, some to go upstairs, some downstairs, and they said,

:38:56.:38:58.

Afterwards, I did not want to say I was Muslim any more

:38:59.:39:08.

because it is like if you are Muslim, they judge you right now

:39:09.:39:11.

France's state of emergency was declared after the Paris terror

:39:12.:39:21.

attacks nearly a month ago and since then French authorities

:39:22.:39:23.

have conducted nearly 2000 raids and imposed house arrest

:39:24.:39:25.

For the first time, three mosques have also been closed.

:39:26.:39:34.

Because of France's state of emergency the police and security

:39:35.:39:36.

services have special powers to act quickly without judicial oversight.

:39:37.:39:40.

They can search homes and private property,

:39:41.:39:43.

even put people under house arrest without a warrant or permission

:39:44.:39:46.

Rights groups fear these powers will lead to widespread abuses

:39:47.:39:53.

The government needs to do everything it can to fight

:39:54.:39:58.

terrorism, not terrorise everyday citizens and this

:39:59.:40:00.

So far we do not have any clear indication about why

:40:01.:40:06.

For example they raided a humanitarian organisation under

:40:07.:40:10.

the suspicion of hiding weapons and narcotics.

:40:11.:40:12.

They showed up with no dogs, with nothing,

:40:13.:40:13.

When you see private property destroyed, mosques being thrashed,

:40:14.:40:26.

restaurants being raided and people handing over their keys

:40:27.:40:28.

for the police to come in, we see that the government does not

:40:29.:40:31.

care about the effects on people so of course we are afraid

:40:32.:40:34.

The French government has said they won't tolerate any raids that

:40:35.:40:40.

In a statement, the interior minister said the searches and house

:40:41.:40:44.

arrests are perfectly justified and based on sound information

:40:45.:40:46.

and the police have strict guidelines to follow.

:40:47.:40:51.

When they came they were banging on the door very, very loud,

:40:52.:40:53.

and then I opened the door and as soon as I opened the door

:40:54.:40:57.

Some French Muslims believe they are being disproportionately

:40:58.:41:05.

targeted and so far lawyers are challenging nearly

:41:06.:41:07.

This man is trying to take legal action after he says at least 30

:41:08.:41:13.

armed policeman raided his flat in the middle of the night.

:41:14.:41:16.

Which part of the house did they search?

:41:17.:41:24.

They searched my daughter's room, she was sleeping here.

:41:25.:41:26.

Your daughter was asleep at the time?

:41:27.:41:28.

She was sleeping here when the police came in.

:41:29.:41:33.

How did she reacts when the police officers came into

:41:34.:41:36.

When they came in and heard policeman outside telling me

:41:37.:41:51.

He says after four hours of searching the entire house,

:41:52.:41:54.

the officers left with nothing and he wasn't given any reason

:41:55.:41:56.

I understand there is a state of emergency so I understand

:41:57.:42:03.

if they come to my home, no problem, but they can knock the door,

:42:04.:42:13.

I will welcome them with a smile and coffee, no problem.

:42:14.:42:16.

I will reply to all of their questions but I am now very upset

:42:17.:42:21.

about how they came in, with guns and the building

:42:22.:42:24.

I think, really, they did it for one purpose, to put fear into the Muslim

:42:25.:42:37.

Not scared because I know I have done nothing so I'm not scared

:42:38.:42:56.

but since that night, I do not sleep well.

:42:57.:42:58.

The government says the emergency laws are necessary to protect French

:42:59.:43:01.

citizens from the threat of more terrorist attacks and there are now

:43:02.:43:04.

plans to extend some emergency powers beyond three months.

:43:05.:43:12.

You can find out more on the impact of France's emergency laws

:43:13.:43:15.

on Muslims in a special documentary on the Paris attacks

:43:16.:43:17.

It's a decision - not to make a decision -

:43:18.:43:27.

over whether a third runway should be built at Heathrow.

:43:28.:43:29.

The Government has been widely criticised for delaying its plans

:43:30.:43:32.

on airport expansion in the south-east of England

:43:33.:43:34.

Business groups accused ministers of being "gutless",

:43:35.:43:36.

arguing the delay is bad for the UK economy.

:43:37.:43:39.

But - the Government says it's because further research

:43:40.:43:41.

on the environmental impact was needed.

:43:42.:43:45.

Zac Goldsmith is a declared opponent of building a new runway at Rome. He

:43:46.:43:53.

joins me from Westminster, thank you. -- Heathrow. The blood saying

:43:54.:43:58.

it is about you. I am not part of the government 's or the committee

:43:59.:44:03.

who made the decision. -- people. I don't know how the decision was

:44:04.:44:07.

reached but along with thousands of campaign groups, I am proud to have

:44:08.:44:12.

done so because we are in the right place, and we are subjecting

:44:13.:44:15.

Heathrow and the alternatives to the same environmental test and I am

:44:16.:44:19.

convinced as most people are that either cannot pass the test so it

:44:20.:44:23.

effectively removes it off the menu. They made the decision knowing you

:44:24.:44:28.

had threatened to resign as an MP at Heathrow got the go-ahead. That is a

:44:29.:44:33.

decision I made eight years ago, I promise I made to my future

:44:34.:44:38.

constituents, I was not elected at the time. It is not a new or renewed

:44:39.:44:43.

threat, it was a promise I made eight years ago with no expiry date,

:44:44.:44:46.

it has been there all along since Russians began, so I don't do that

:44:47.:44:51.

is correct. -- discussions. Something else has occurred, we are

:44:52.:44:58.

six months away from the mayoral elections and you are standing as a

:44:59.:45:02.

candidate in that. If I had an impact on shifting the debate, a

:45:03.:45:08.

decision in doing the Heathrow expansion would have been

:45:09.:45:10.

catastrophic for London, the economic case as well as the

:45:11.:45:14.

environmental case. If we are in a place where we can look at a viable

:45:15.:45:18.

better alternative, that is a better thing, I will not apologise. Will

:45:19.:45:24.

some people look at this and say, effectively, even though your pledge

:45:25.:45:27.

was made so long ago, it was a gun to the head of the Prime Minister?

:45:28.:45:32.

It was not going to happen before the mayoral election. That is not

:45:33.:45:36.

the language I would use. It was a promise to my constituents eight

:45:37.:45:41.

years ago. When they heard David Cameron promising no ifs and no

:45:42.:45:45.

buts, no expansion, they loved what they heard but they did not believe

:45:46.:45:49.

it. I said if you vote for me as your MP, and elect me, if that

:45:50.:45:53.

promises broken, you will have a chance to vote again. A simple

:45:54.:45:56.

promise, no wiggle room, straightforward thinking, and

:45:57.:46:01.

promises matter in politics. Whether you call it a gun to the head, it

:46:02.:46:05.

was a promise that I was obliged to keep, and I would have kept it.

:46:06.:46:10.

Isn't a promise that he would make as Mayor? No. My job is to move the

:46:11.:46:18.

debate on. Then you would be directly answerable to people across

:46:19.:46:22.

London entirely, and if people don't want it, why not make the same

:46:23.:46:28.

pledge? I don't think it does any good, I am not thrilled I made the

:46:29.:46:32.

promise in 2008 egos I felt I needed to make it. You could argue

:46:33.:46:35.

logically that resigning is the worst way to achieve the outcome you

:46:36.:46:42.

want. If I am elected Mayor in May, I will be elected among a great many

:46:43.:46:45.

other things, to get the right answer to aviation. It does not hang

:46:46.:46:51.

together because you are saying that if you have affected the debate...

:46:52.:46:56.

You are saying that! If you have affected the debate with the pledge,

:46:57.:47:00.

that is a good thing, you are saying, but by making another

:47:01.:47:04.

pledge, you could affect the debate further rather than stepping away

:47:05.:47:08.

from it rather than saying if I win, I stand back from it. You are making

:47:09.:47:18.

that link and not me, I've made the case against Heathrow for many

:47:19.:47:22.

years, the occupants have strengthened as a result of the

:47:23.:47:25.

Airports Commission. You are the person making the link between the

:47:26.:47:30.

pledge and the Government's position. Not me, I'm putting it to

:47:31.:47:36.

you. I understand. As happens if you read the airport commission's report

:47:37.:47:43.

and the Davis review, he said the Government must satisfy itself that

:47:44.:47:46.

Heathrow can pass the environment or test. That is where we are. The only

:47:47.:47:50.

difference is the Government is subjecting the other options to the

:47:51.:47:53.

same test, which makes sense because if 5-6 -7 months down the line and

:47:54.:48:02.

Heathrow comes back and it cannot meet the test it makes sense to all

:48:03.:48:06.

adds of the same question. It's been described as a delay, this is a

:48:07.:48:09.

pragmatic delay of reaching the right answer more quickly. Did you

:48:10.:48:16.

have any questions with anybody in Downing Street about delaying the

:48:17.:48:20.

decision? I've been talking to anyone who listens, I've spoken to

:48:21.:48:24.

the Chancellor, the Prime Minister and ministers about this for the

:48:25.:48:29.

last few weeks, months and years. I've been lobbying continuously as

:48:30.:48:32.

you would expect. That is my job, and not just America can bet it, I'm

:48:33.:48:37.

a London MP and my job is to get things done. -- I'm not just a

:48:38.:48:43.

mayoral candidate. Zac Goldsmith, thank you.

:48:44.:48:45.

Let's get the latest weather update with Peter Gibbs.

:48:46.:48:50.

Difficult to know what season it is at the moment and even the plants

:48:51.:48:56.

are confused. Fiddles blooming in the weather garden, whereas in

:48:57.:49:01.

Pitlochry the day started with a covering of snow. The same contrast

:49:02.:49:05.

between North and South is maintained through the weekend, cold

:49:06.:49:09.

sitting around across the North, much milder air in the South. Over

:49:10.:49:12.

that boundary is where we will see lots of the rain and snow.

:49:13.:49:16.

Eventually the mild air will win out going into the start of next week.

:49:17.:49:20.

In the shorter term we have some snow in the mix across Scotland, a

:49:21.:49:23.

bit of rain at lower levels are particularly over the hill quite a

:49:24.:49:27.

lot piling up, pushing through on the strong winds. Rain showers

:49:28.:49:30.

across Northern Ireland and northern England but even here over higher

:49:31.:49:33.

ground there could be hail and sleet in the mix. It is all driven along

:49:34.:49:38.

by a cold wind, making it feel like winter once again today across

:49:39.:49:43.

Scotland, Northern Ireland, northern England, 5-7d the best in many

:49:44.:49:48.

places. Once you get down to Wales, west Midlands and East Anglia lots

:49:49.:49:50.

of sunshine breaking through but it takes longer for the brighter and

:49:51.:49:53.

clearer whether to arrive across the southernmost counties of England but

:49:54.:49:58.

it will stay most admired here, temperatures holding at around 10

:49:59.:50:04.

degrees. This evening and overnight -- the most mild here. The showers

:50:05.:50:09.

will clear away and it will turn cold under clear skies. You could

:50:10.:50:12.

see a meteor shower over the next few days. Widespread frost across

:50:13.:50:17.

Scotland and a touch of frost may be across northern parts of England and

:50:18.:50:21.

Northern Ireland for a time. Before the cloud starts pushing back

:50:22.:50:24.

northwards again. It's going to be quite a mix on the weather system

:50:25.:50:28.

tomorrow. That is snow across Pennine regions, particularly could

:50:29.:50:32.

be piling up. The worst of the rain and snow keeping clear of Cumbria.

:50:33.:50:36.

That is the key. Temperatures to the south of the rain band on the mild

:50:37.:50:40.

side. Emma North another cold day but a bright and crisp date for much

:50:41.:50:44.

of Scotland with relatively light winds and bubbly feeling better.

:50:45.:50:49.

Through Saturday night the rain band still sits there but it will start

:50:50.:50:53.

moving northwards. Quite a hard frost to the north of it, mild

:50:54.:50:58.

across southern parts of England, temperatures well below freezing

:50:59.:51:01.

over the snowfields of Scotland under those clear skies, could even

:51:02.:51:06.

go down to -10, in some of the Glens of Scotland. On Sunday and mild air

:51:07.:51:12.

pushing northwards again, cloudier skies working their way up across

:51:13.:51:17.

England, Wales and Northern Ireland, eventually reaching Scotland. And

:51:18.:51:19.

then we are back into the mild air by the time we get back into the

:51:20.:51:21.

start of next week. Hello it's, Friday, it's 10am,

:51:22.:51:27.

I'm Joanna Gosling, welcome to the programme if

:51:28.:51:29.

you've just joined us. Coming up before 11: Are children

:51:30.:51:31.

in residential care being failed We'll be talking exclusively

:51:32.:51:34.

to the man who's leading a review of care homes in England -

:51:35.:51:38.

and he'll be talking to our audience It is a great opportunity to talk

:51:39.:51:48.

through the issues. Stay with us, coming up in a moment.

:51:49.:51:50.

Women are told that being overweight is the single biggest threat

:51:51.:51:52.

But will people listen to the warning?

:51:53.:51:59.

Obesity, rather like smoking, contributes to a vast amount.

:52:00.:52:05.

Do you think larger people like to be large, do you think we've

:52:06.:52:08.

If it was preventable, or possible to cure it we would.

:52:09.:52:18.

No larger person gets up in the morning and says,

:52:19.:52:20.

We'll find out how one family from Syria is trying to build

:52:21.:52:26.

There is no space, my room is very small, there is no space for my baby

:52:27.:52:37.

to play, only to sleep. Obesity is such a threat to women's

:52:38.:52:46.

health that it should be declared a national risk - according

:52:47.:52:53.

to England's Chief Medical Officer. Dame Sally Davies says obesity

:52:54.:52:56.

is so serious it should be a priority for the whole population,

:52:57.:52:58.

but particularly for women because too often it

:52:59.:53:01.

shortened their lives. We need to help women understand how

:53:02.:53:10.

it limits life in very many ways. And we need to, by helping women and

:53:11.:53:16.

everyone, make healthy options the easy option.

:53:17.:53:19.

Scotland Yard say police have shot a man during an intelligence

:53:20.:53:21.

led operation in the Wood Green area

:53:22.:53:23.

The man's condition is unknown and there are no reports

:53:24.:53:27.

Climate change talks in Paris are extended until Saturday,

:53:28.:53:32.

to try to reach agreement on tackling global warming -

:53:33.:53:34.

but there are reports of progress in several crucial areas.

:53:35.:53:40.

Businesses have reacted furiously after the government announced

:53:41.:53:42.

a delay in deciding whether to expand London's Heathrow Airport.

:53:43.:53:48.

The Prime Minister has said the decision will be made next summer,

:53:49.:53:53.

after further research on the environmental impact.

:53:54.:53:54.

Former Glasgow Rangers footballer Arnold Peralta has been shot dead

:53:55.:53:56.

while on holiday in his hometown in Honduras.

:53:57.:53:58.

Peralta had been due to play for his national team in a friendly

:53:59.:54:02.

Let's catch up with all the sport now.

:54:03.:54:09.

Good morning again. Bad news again for Uefa President Michel Platini.

:54:10.:54:18.

The Court of Arbitration for Sport refused to allow him back to work

:54:19.:54:20.

and end his 90 basis pension from football early. Platini has denied

:54:21.:54:26.

taking a payment from Sepp Blatter, as an investigation into the pair

:54:27.:54:30.

continues. Richard Conway is in Paris for us. What has CAS had to

:54:31.:54:36.

say this morning. What the court have decided is they

:54:37.:54:42.

want a decision against, over the case against Platini, to be decided

:54:43.:54:46.

over the 90 day period he is currently serving, they don't want

:54:47.:54:49.

it extended beyond that. They say that for now the suspension remains

:54:50.:54:52.

in place, and that eventually that final decision can be made to bring

:54:53.:54:58.

clarity to the case. That is where it stands. In a bit of limbo but we

:54:59.:55:01.

expect further develop meets next week. We expect hearings as Fifa's

:55:02.:55:07.

Ethics Committee build to a final judgment, and we expect that as

:55:08.:55:11.

early as Monday 21st of December. How much can we read into the

:55:12.:55:18.

decision from CAS, because it was suggested in many quarters that if

:55:19.:55:21.

he was allowed to end his ban early you may have concrete evidence to

:55:22.:55:27.

suggest he was innocent. Michel Platini is trying to provide

:55:28.:55:31.

evidence to show that, as he says, is an innocent party. What the court

:55:32.:55:36.

has been asked to do is not look at the facts but whether it was fair to

:55:37.:55:39.

exclude him from the Fifa presidential process. Platini wants

:55:40.:55:45.

to succeed setback to in the election. He's banned from all

:55:46.:55:49.

football activity at the moment. He cannot be a candidate in the Fifa

:55:50.:55:52.

presidential election. He went to the court and asked if it could be

:55:53.:55:56.

lifted, is this fair, I want to be a candidate. The court came back to

:55:57.:55:59.

say he would get a final decision in the next few weeks, that will be

:56:00.:56:03.

fair. If it goes beyond that you can come back and talk to spend. For now

:56:04.:56:08.

the facts of the case remain to be inevitably we will be back in this

:56:09.:56:12.

situation in a few weeks in January if the case goes against him. There

:56:13.:56:17.

is a big Euro 2016 draw tomorrow. The Uefa meeting too as well. Uefa

:56:18.:56:24.

is here in Paris for the big Euro 2016 draw taking place tomorrow. I

:56:25.:56:28.

can tell you that Michel Platini was ready and waiting to go to that draw

:56:29.:56:31.

tomorrow. He wasn't going to take part in it but he was going to be in

:56:32.:56:35.

the audience and watching on, a symbol as he saw it, that he was

:56:36.:56:39.

back in business and back as a candidate for Fifa aback as

:56:40.:56:42.

President of Uefa. That has all been put back on hold. We await a final

:56:43.:56:48.

verdict from Fifa's Ethics Committee, that will be on the 21st

:56:49.:56:53.

of December and based on what happens in that judgment we will see

:56:54.:56:57.

if it goes to appeal again, whether Michel Platini, if cleared, is back

:56:58.:57:00.

in business and back as a Fifa presidential candidate.

:57:01.:57:06.

Thank you for joining us, Richard. That's all the sport for now, I will

:57:07.:57:10.

have the rest of the headlines at 10:30am.

:57:11.:57:11.

Great stuff, thank you. Hello -

:57:12.:57:13.

thank you for joining us this morning, welcome to the programme

:57:14.:57:15.

if you've just joined us, we're on BBC 2 and the BBC News

:57:16.:57:17.

Channel until 11am this morning. Your contributions to this

:57:18.:57:21.

programme and your expertise There has been a big response from

:57:22.:57:26.

you about our conversation earlier on women and obesity. Lots of you

:57:27.:57:32.

disagreeing with Catherine. Shirley says I'm fed up with a obese people

:57:33.:57:36.

blaming everyone else but themselves. It is their choice and

:57:37.:57:39.

theirs alone what they eat. Why should the taxpayer shoulder what is

:57:40.:57:43.

yet another self-inflicted burden? And analyst text says if it was

:57:44.:57:49.

manufacturers' fault, everybody would be obese, it's up to the

:57:50.:57:53.

individual. Get involved, texts charged at the standard rate.

:57:54.:57:55.

And of course you can watch the programme online wherever

:57:56.:57:58.

you are - via the bbc news app or our website bbc.co.uk/victoria.

:57:59.:58:01.

You can also subscribe to all our features on the news app,

:58:02.:58:04.

by going to add topics and searching 'Victoria Derbyshire'.

:58:05.:58:06.

This morning we're speaking exclusively to Sir Martin Narey

:58:07.:58:12.

who is heading the review of residential care homes

:58:13.:58:14.

The Government launched a wide ranging review in October 2015

:58:15.:58:21.

and Martin Narey's report is due in Spring 2016.

:58:22.:58:24.

The Department for Education hopes it will help prevent a life

:58:25.:58:27.

of disadvantage for some of the most vulnerable children in care -

:58:28.:58:30.

children who are less likely to do well at school and more likely

:58:31.:58:33.

to take part in risky behaviour than their classmates.

:58:34.:58:35.

There are more than 8,000 children and young people

:58:36.:58:37.

the leaving age is 18-years-old compared to a leaving age

:58:38.:58:44.

of 21 for those living in foster care.

:58:45.:58:47.

Around ?1 billion is spent every year by local government

:58:48.:58:50.

in England to cover the cost of children's care home places.

:58:51.:58:53.

Here to talk about this in his first broadcast interview

:58:54.:58:56.

as the Chair of the review - is Sir Martin Narey.

:58:57.:58:58.

We also have an audience of people with us who live in care -

:58:59.:59:02.

or have recently left, people who work in children's homes

:59:03.:59:04.

or have other personal experiences of residential care.

:59:05.:59:07.

Thank you for joining us. Martin, first of all, tell us, the

:59:08.:59:16.

review was launched in October. Where have you got in terms of

:59:17.:59:19.

working out what the scope is going to be? I'm still very much in the

:59:20.:59:25.

preliminary stages. It's an incredibly complex matter. But it is

:59:26.:59:31.

a fascinating matter, and I believe desperately that we can do better

:59:32.:59:36.

with the ?1 billion we spend on these 8000 children. But it's very

:59:37.:59:39.

the catered. I'm still meeting people and listening to people, very

:59:40.:59:42.

interested in the comments from people this morning, all of whom

:59:43.:59:49.

know far more than me about this at the moment. Do you feel you have a

:59:50.:59:52.

clear direction question you said the one being pounds spent on kids

:59:53.:59:59.

in residential care could be as bent better, would that mean taking them

:00:00.:00:05.

out of care? -- could be spent better. I generally don't no. I've

:00:06.:00:12.

seen great staff in residential care, working in residential care.

:00:13.:00:17.

If they worked in Germany or Denmark they'd be the most highly praised,

:00:18.:00:20.

the highest status social workers in the country. They are not regarded

:00:21.:00:24.

with the same respect here. But my sense is they do some tremendous

:00:25.:00:28.

work with the most difficult and challenging children. The children

:00:29.:00:31.

have not done anything wrong. They've been damaged by neglect at

:00:32.:00:34.

home and often successive foster care placements. When they leave

:00:35.:00:38.

care they sometimes leave care, as you piece showed, terribly abruptly.

:00:39.:00:43.

They get into great difficulties. I sense we can do better. I'm not

:00:44.:00:49.

limited to save we should only spend ?1 billion and I've not been asked

:00:50.:00:51.

by the government to drive down numbers and spend less, I've been

:00:52.:00:56.

asked for my ideas about how we can do better. We have an open mind and

:00:57.:00:59.

lots of people here with experience that they want to share with you.

:01:00.:01:03.

Let's star with you, Hayley. Tell us about your experiences

:01:04.:01:08.

I was taken into full-time care at six and was with a foster carer for

:01:09.:01:16.

numerous years. Different types, non-authority, private and local

:01:17.:01:22.

authority. I moved to a kids' home when I was 15 and stayed until I was

:01:23.:01:27.

18 and then moved on to semi-independence. What would you

:01:28.:01:32.

take from your experiences that would be helpful for you to tell

:01:33.:01:37.

Martin in terms of how to make sure people have as good as possible and

:01:38.:01:43.

experience? I enjoyed my time in residential care, it was amazing, as

:01:44.:01:50.

malt unit but there was no stay put scheme for residential kids, it was

:01:51.:01:53.

only four foster placements. Explain what that was. It is where you can

:01:54.:01:58.

stay until you are 21 with your foster carers, working through your

:01:59.:02:09.

financials. Is that an obvious discrepancy which can be dealt with

:02:10.:02:15.

easily? It is but it is not clear that all children in residential

:02:16.:02:19.

care would want to stay on and there are difficulties about having

:02:20.:02:22.

children becoming adults in residential care. What is obvious is

:02:23.:02:28.

that I don't think it happens very often but the suggestion we should

:02:29.:02:33.

take any child on, reaching their 18th day, and put them in a flat on

:02:34.:02:39.

their own, when we are still driving our own kids University and caring

:02:40.:02:45.

for them, is preposterous, and I've think there is easily something we

:02:46.:02:49.

can do to improve matters. -- driving them to university. Most

:02:50.:02:53.

residential care homes I have seen trying not to do that. I was in a

:02:54.:03:04.

care home recently and she had left a care home previously and

:03:05.:03:07.

routinely, she dropped in for a slice of toast and they offered her

:03:08.:03:10.

the same sort of care that they would have done if she were a

:03:11.:03:15.

mother. There was a lot of that where care homes are not paid but

:03:16.:03:18.

they do it conscientiously. That sounds good. You are 19, you were in

:03:19.:03:24.

foster care from six years of age and lived there until 11. My mum and

:03:25.:03:31.

dad had mental health problems so I was put into foster care when I was

:03:32.:03:38.

six and I was there but moved to about 13 foster placements. It was

:03:39.:03:46.

difficult. I was angry at the time so I was breathing. I did not really

:03:47.:03:53.

understand. Residential care was better for me, I was not invading

:03:54.:03:57.

anyone's family life, I could build relationships. My care worker told

:03:58.:04:05.

the care home not to contact me and even my support with her and the

:04:06.:04:09.

other support team did not help me. I have help from my family and

:04:10.:04:14.

friends but it was bad to leave, that was the hardest part. Such a

:04:15.:04:18.

destructive childhood but you found your feet when you went into

:04:19.:04:23.

residential care? That is counter to what a lot of people might expect.

:04:24.:04:29.

Well, I was off for five years so I dealt relationships. -- I was there.

:04:30.:04:36.

-- I built relationships. They helped me to understand who I was

:04:37.:04:42.

and why I was angry. What support was there for you? I had a key

:04:43.:04:46.

worker, a number of key workers. Were they like the parents? Yes, I

:04:47.:04:57.

have one now got me onto this show. -- who got me. They are like a

:04:58.:05:01.

family, they are great. Let's bring in VB. Currently in a small

:05:02.:05:06.

children's home with just two other young people and staff. -- Phoebe.

:05:07.:05:17.

Us about your expenses. I was there for two years and I kept making the

:05:18.:05:21.

same mistakes when I was living at home so I got put into Stafford and

:05:22.:05:26.

I made one mistake when I was there, and since then, I have been to

:05:27.:05:30.

college, got a job, and now I am moving on to semi-independence and

:05:31.:05:33.

doing my own thing, taking driving lessons. When you see kept making

:05:34.:05:40.

mistakes... I was running away. -- when you say. I got put into care

:05:41.:05:47.

but I kept running away when I was put into a care home so I was put

:05:48.:05:50.

into Stafford, and ran away once when I was there, and since that

:05:51.:05:55.

mistake, I got a job, went to college, started driving lessons.

:05:56.:06:02.

What turned things around? It is moving out of that circle of people

:06:03.:06:06.

who I was with. Moving away from that has made me change. I am not

:06:07.:06:12.

with them any more. Like, I have made my own friends, I got a job,

:06:13.:06:16.

went to college, it's driving lessons, it changes you. Bail,

:06:17.:06:23.

sitting next to you, is the manager of the children's home where you

:06:24.:06:29.

live. What is your perspective? -- Dale. We are proud of her

:06:30.:06:37.

live. What is your perspective? -- the appalling things was moving away

:06:38.:06:41.

people are often run into something people are often run into something

:06:42.:06:48.

not away from something. Keeping a distance between

:06:49.:06:50.

not away from something. Keeping a associating with who were putting

:06:51.:06:53.

her at risk was important, she had time and space to stop and think

:06:54.:06:57.

about what she was doing, the support from us -- with support from

:06:58.:07:04.

us. Expand on that because people might think it is better for anybody

:07:05.:07:07.

who has been taken away from their home to stay in the area because it

:07:08.:07:11.

is where they go to school and whatever, there are links that might

:07:12.:07:16.

denude, but you are saying that sometimes it is the opposite. Yes.

:07:17.:07:27.

-- might continue. She was running away

:07:28.:07:30.

-- might continue. She was running putting her into a residential home

:07:31.:07:33.

in the same area meant she was at risk of being drawn to the same

:07:34.:07:37.

undesirable people who exploit her. To actually separate her from that

:07:38.:07:42.

group of people meant we were able to keep her safe and I believe that

:07:43.:07:49.

it is almost like a weight of Phoebe's shoulders. The sort of home

:07:50.:07:54.

you are talking about is not necessarily the image that a lot of

:07:55.:07:57.

people might have, traditional view of a children's home. A large

:07:58.:07:59.

establishment with lots of kids. of a children's home. A large

:08:00.:08:07.

Absolutely not. What is it like? The ethos is to create a family

:08:08.:08:12.

environment and in any family the centre of that family, everything

:08:13.:08:17.

you do and think about, the young person, your children. Likewise, the

:08:18.:08:24.

home we are at, the children form the most important part of that, the

:08:25.:08:28.

centre of what we think about and do. Even if

:08:29.:08:30.

centre of what we think about and are thought about so we can support

:08:31.:08:31.

them. They actually feel are thought about so we can support

:08:32.:08:37.

worthy, valued and loved for and cared for. What have your

:08:38.:08:41.

experiences been? I have been cared for. What have your

:08:42.:08:47.

residential care that have been in cared for. What have your

:08:48.:08:49.

the care system cared for. What have your

:08:50.:08:54.

was with my last foster parents for ten years. I cannot stress the

:08:55.:08:57.

importance of being within a loving and stable family environment. I

:08:58.:09:04.

think young people and children in care are amongst the most vulnerable

:09:05.:09:09.

people in society, and I really think it is important to provide

:09:10.:09:10.

that young person with think it is important to provide

:09:11.:09:16.

very stable, have the right people amongst them to boost them and push

:09:17.:09:23.

them to give them a supportive environment. I currently live in a

:09:24.:09:31.

loving home and without the backbone and support of parents that pushed

:09:32.:09:36.

me and kept me on the straight and narrow through difficult times...

:09:37.:09:40.

Young people in care do have very difficult and angry times and

:09:41.:09:44.

confused people. You work voluntarily care homes, is that

:09:45.:09:52.

right? I was working as a councillor for Lambeth Council. When you see

:09:53.:09:59.

these kids and where it is going wrong, what is it for you that is

:10:00.:10:04.

going wrong? It is a lot about leaving care, there is not a lot of

:10:05.:10:09.

support young people who have left care, financially and in terms of

:10:10.:10:16.

supporting that carer emotionally -- that care lever emotionally, and

:10:17.:10:21.

providing that information and knowledge to live and to do normal

:10:22.:10:29.

things that they should do at aged 18. It is not a good situation that

:10:30.:10:37.

people leave their homes and environment when they are 18, they

:10:38.:10:42.

need that knowledge and support in a normal case, at a normal family

:10:43.:10:45.

home, a young person would not leave at 18 to live by themselves and pay

:10:46.:10:51.

Bills, so I think that needs to be rethought. Martin, what do you make

:10:52.:11:01.

about this on what is jumping out at you? This issue of leaving care and

:11:02.:11:06.

the fact we do something to ease children into adulthood and carry on

:11:07.:11:12.

the support they need. Bearing in mind the stories you have got here,

:11:13.:11:16.

these are great successes and they have gone on into higher education

:11:17.:11:21.

and have done well. There are lots of children and young adults who are

:11:22.:11:25.

having a terrible time and have found the transition to an altered

:11:26.:11:29.

overwhelming and have got into trouble, getting into the criminal

:11:30.:11:33.

justice system. It is those we have to redress and we have to give them

:11:34.:11:38.

the extended care and support that we as parents give to our own kids.

:11:39.:11:45.

-- have two address. When you are 36 but you had a tough time and ended

:11:46.:11:49.

up in prison, talkers rue that. I was adopted from age to my adoption

:11:50.:11:58.

broke down when I was about eight, and I... At the age of eight? What

:11:59.:12:08.

with the issues? -- what were the issues # I was quite disruptive

:12:09.:12:15.

child but my adoptive parents had issues that she needed to deal with.

:12:16.:12:20.

You moved on from there. That broke down and I got put into local

:12:21.:12:24.

authority care and that is where I stayed. Because I was deemed a

:12:25.:12:30.

troubled child, because I was deemed destructive, I went from pillar to

:12:31.:12:34.

post, from children's home to children's home, from boarding

:12:35.:12:37.

school to boarding school, until eventually at the age of 15, I was

:12:38.:12:45.

hurt in a bed and breakfast and told to collect ?110 a week. -- I was

:12:46.:12:53.

put. On your own? On my own in a bed and breakfast until a month before I

:12:54.:12:57.

was 16, I was given the keys to my own independent flat which at the

:12:58.:13:03.

time, I thought it was great, parties and this and that, it was

:13:04.:13:07.

everything! At the same time, looking back at it, that has to be a

:13:08.:13:14.

big neglect from Islington social services. Could that happen now?

:13:15.:13:19.

Yes, it still does. I think it happens much less than is suggested.

:13:20.:13:29.

It should not ever happen. I have not seen any foster carers or

:13:30.:13:31.

residential growers who have let that happen but sometimes it is

:13:32.:13:35.

children who walk away and we have to do something to prevent that, but

:13:36.:13:39.

when someone reaches adulthood and they want nothing to do with their

:13:40.:13:45.

carers, you might have to be around to pick up the pieces. I work with a

:13:46.:13:51.

lot of young people now who are leaving care with an organisation

:13:52.:13:55.

called the Big House and we still see it today, 16-year-olds getting

:13:56.:14:03.

keys to a flat. I must talk to because that is outrageous. The

:14:04.:14:09.

organisation I work with, we bridge mainstream society, budgeting,

:14:10.:14:14.

healthy eating, psychological therapy, drama. But there was never

:14:15.:14:21.

an organisation like that when I was young and if it were not for an

:14:22.:14:24.

organisation like this, these young people we deal with would still be

:14:25.:14:32.

damaged if you like. Residential care and children services, they do

:14:33.:14:37.

not want that to happen. If it happens, it is outrageous that I

:14:38.:14:41.

believe it happened in a minority of cases. -- children's. I will talk to

:14:42.:14:47.

you. Is bring in dog who has been at foster carer for 18 years. -- Doug.

:14:48.:14:55.

You have a wealth of experience. We have a sign in our home which says,

:14:56.:14:58.

be nice to me, I live with teenagers. Many of us can identify

:14:59.:15:02.

with that. Tell us what you can share about your experiences of how

:15:03.:15:09.

to help children in care because obviously they have come from

:15:10.:15:12.

troubled backgrounds. We must not lose sight of the fact that a lot of

:15:13.:15:17.

young people in the care system have developmental issues as a result of

:15:18.:15:23.

their early experiences, and that is what informs their judgments and

:15:24.:15:26.

actions as they go through life. A lot of them, a number of them are

:15:27.:15:32.

not happy in foster care. They have had issues they cannot form

:15:33.:15:39.

relationships with families. We have five young people who have been

:15:40.:15:44.

looked after who have caused issues within the placement because they do

:15:45.:15:50.

not fit in, it does not suit them. Their way of expressing it is to

:15:51.:15:54.

misbehave and become bad children. And to show what behaviours that are

:15:55.:15:58.

not acceptable. They have gone on in some cases to residential care and

:15:59.:16:03.

benefited from that. We have also had the opposite end of the effect

:16:04.:16:08.

where we have recently had a young person who has come through some

:16:09.:16:11.

residential care, came to us at the age of 13 and over the last six

:16:12.:16:15.

months we have helped him integrate into his family. He is now back home

:16:16.:16:21.

living with his birth family. And so we have seen both ends of it and we

:16:22.:16:24.

can see the importance and value that residential care has. Tell us

:16:25.:16:31.

more, I know this is an interesting point you wanted to pick up on,

:16:32.:16:37.

Martin, about the kids who don't necessarily fit into a foster care

:16:38.:16:40.

home because the level of support is not there. What level of support do

:16:41.:16:44.

they need? If we could get every child to do well in foster care, as

:16:45.:16:50.

we have heard today, ten years in foster care, people who are really

:16:51.:16:54.

your parents, that would be the model we wouldn't abandon. But there

:16:55.:16:58.

are some children who we will try in foster care over and over again

:16:59.:17:02.

despite the efforts of fantastic people. He didn't tell you he took

:17:03.:17:08.

the child at half hour's notice last night. These are remarkable people

:17:09.:17:12.

but some children will not survive there. If you can identify who those

:17:13.:17:18.

children are and get them into residential care earlier and give

:17:19.:17:23.

them stability in residential care, as Phoebe has done, they will do

:17:24.:17:26.

rather well. There is something about finding out which of the

:17:27.:17:29.

children who will do well in foster care and which of them who won't,

:17:30.:17:33.

and perhaps getting in them into residential care early, or perhaps

:17:34.:17:36.

blurring the distinction between residential care and foster care. On

:17:37.:17:41.

the figures, if there are 8000 children in residential care,

:17:42.:17:45.

potentially do you think they are all the sorts of children that we

:17:46.:17:48.

are talking about here who need to be there, or might the numbers be

:17:49.:17:54.

reduced? I think every local authority and social worker, if I

:17:55.:17:56.

can find a family placement that will work for a child they are doing

:17:57.:18:01.

that first. Most children in residential care will have had five

:18:02.:18:05.

or more family placements. They will have been tried in fostering on many

:18:06.:18:08.

occasions and they will have left and tried again and left. Sometimes

:18:09.:18:14.

they ricochet between foster care, residential care, foster care,

:18:15.:18:18.

residential care. It is by no means unusual to meet someone in care

:18:19.:18:22.

who's been in 24, 25 different placements. Just to go on what Doug

:18:23.:18:27.

said about forming relationships and young people not willing to put the

:18:28.:18:30.

work into form relationships, it's actually about trust and whether

:18:31.:18:34.

they should actually invest in forming irreligion ship when every

:18:35.:18:41.

time they have tried that, in their mind's eye, they have been moved. In

:18:42.:18:47.

their mind they have got it wrong. Phoebe said she made mistakes. She

:18:48.:18:53.

didn't do anything wrong at all. You thought it was a reflection of you

:18:54.:18:57.

rather than your personal circumstances. I was living at my

:18:58.:19:03.

mum's house. It wasn't working. But you thought it was your fault? It

:19:04.:19:10.

was my fault. Why do you say that? Dale says it was not your fault. My

:19:11.:19:16.

mum lanes it on me. I don't know, I was the youngest in my family, not

:19:17.:19:20.

the youngest youngest but the fourth youngest. I got treated differently

:19:21.:19:25.

to everyone else because I was in the middle age. The only way to help

:19:26.:19:30.

myself was to run, to get myself out of it. Let's bring in Krish, because

:19:31.:19:36.

we have not heard from you. You've been a foster carer for ten years,

:19:37.:19:41.

tell us your perspective. We have been foster carers for ten years, we

:19:42.:19:47.

are foster carers and we have our own kids. You have six kids in

:19:48.:19:52.

are foster carers and we have our house? I work for a network of

:19:53.:19:56.

foster carers and adopted carers across the country that tries to

:19:57.:20:00.

find more carers. There are systemic problems in the residential care

:20:01.:20:04.

system. When we saw the terrible paedophile rings preying on young

:20:05.:20:08.

girls in Rochdale and in Oxfordshire, often they were coming

:20:09.:20:13.

out of residential care homes, because there was not enough staff

:20:14.:20:18.

and not enough funding. Some of the staff there in some of those

:20:19.:20:21.

circumstances were low-paid workers, low skills. Compare that with

:20:22.:20:28.

Scandinavia where they have more of a therapeutic culture, where

:20:29.:20:30.

residential homes are not seen as the last ditch for people who have

:20:31.:20:34.

failed in foster care, at a viable alternative for some young people

:20:35.:20:36.

that need that. alternative for some young people

:20:37.:20:40.

anything like that here. You only end up in residential care when

:20:41.:20:43.

you've been to five or six different foster carers. Young people will

:20:44.:20:47.

sense that, foster carers. Young people will

:20:48.:20:51.

ditch hope for you. That is foster carers. Young people will

:20:52.:20:53.

was going to say and that's the problem, when a young person is put

:20:54.:20:57.

into care, whether it is foster care or residential care, the first time

:20:58.:21:00.

they go into foster care they already feel like an outsider.

:21:01.:21:03.

they go into foster care they already feel like a second-class

:21:04.:21:09.

citizen. When they are getting put from foster home to foster home, and

:21:10.:21:12.

told the last resort is now a from foster home to foster home, and

:21:13.:21:16.

residential home you give up on yourself. There is nothing more for

:21:17.:21:22.

you. We need a culture change, we need more support for foster caring.

:21:23.:21:26.

If they had more training of more support less of them would break

:21:27.:21:31.

down. Loss of our caseworkers have incredible caseloads at the moment

:21:32.:21:36.

so lots of the placements are not well transitioned what thought

:21:37.:21:46.

through. I think you need to bear in mind, lots of these children have

:21:47.:21:49.

been badly damaged by what happened to them at home. Their ability to

:21:50.:21:55.

trust adults is gravely hampered by that. When they have had five or six

:21:56.:21:59.

foster placements, it's difficult for them to settle into residential

:22:00.:22:02.

care for stop one of the lessons for me is we need to intervene early. We

:22:03.:22:06.

need to rescue some of these children from neglect before Iraq --

:22:07.:22:13.

irreparable damage is done. The keyword for me that has been used in

:22:14.:22:16.

almost every interview I have had and heard so much this morning is

:22:17.:22:20.

stability. Children need to be in the same place and know they belong

:22:21.:22:23.

somewhere and know they will not change just homes but not schools

:22:24.:22:27.

will stop perhaps this time next year. Report back. I would love to.

:22:28.:22:35.

Martin, I know that you want to hear from anybody out there who has

:22:36.:22:36.

experience on this. The review headed up by Sir Martin

:22:37.:22:50.

covers England but in Scotgland there was a review in 2009 -

:22:51.:22:57.

and the Scottish Government has recently announced a new strategy

:22:58.:23:00.

which includes introducing a degree qualification for staff

:23:01.:23:02.

who work in children's In Northern Ireland there

:23:03.:23:04.

was a review in 2013 which recommended that they increase

:23:05.:23:07.

the number of smaller children's That is something we have talked

:23:08.:23:10.

about here. And in Wales, the introduction

:23:11.:23:13.

of new laws in 2016 and 2017 are hoped to overhaul

:23:14.:23:16.

the way care is delivered, including placements

:23:17.:23:18.

for looked-after children, framework for regulating children's

:23:19.:23:20.

homes. The Chief Executive

:23:21.:23:26.

of Southern Health NHS Foundation Trust has said

:23:27.:23:37.

It was after a BBC News revealed that more than a thousand

:23:38.:23:40.

unexpected deaths had not More than 1000 and expected deaths

:23:41.:23:45.

of mental health and learning disability patients have not been

:23:46.:23:48.

investigated by the trust. She has spoken to our social affairs

:23:49.:23:53.

correspondent Michael Buchanan. He is in Southampton for us now. What

:23:54.:24:01.

has she said? The embattled Chief Executive of Southern health has not

:24:02.:24:05.

been seen for a couple of days since widespread failings were revealed at

:24:06.:24:09.

the trust that she runs. There in mind this report that we saw blamed

:24:10.:24:12.

the senior leadership saying there was a failure of leadership at Seven

:24:13.:24:18.

Health that led to these problems. We have of course made repeated

:24:19.:24:22.

efforts to get an interview with Katrina Percy but she did not want

:24:23.:24:26.

to meet as so early this morning we went to meet her.

:24:27.:24:30.

Obviously it is absolutely tragic whenever anybody loses a loved one.

:24:31.:24:37.

I'm very sorry to them. And of course, we do investigate and talk

:24:38.:24:41.

to families. We really have looked to improve our processes for that. I

:24:42.:24:46.

was just checking with my clinical leaders yesterday to reassure

:24:47.:24:51.

myself, in the last six months in every investigation we have done the

:24:52.:24:56.

families have been involved in every single one of those cases. I'm

:24:57.:25:00.

really sorry we haven't got some of our investigations right in the

:25:01.:25:05.

past. Clearly that's the case. Jeremy Hunt has said he is shocked

:25:06.:25:11.

by what has happened. Are you apologising to the family and will

:25:12.:25:15.

you be resigning? My job is to lead a very large organisation and make

:25:16.:25:18.

sure we have the right environment for our doctors and nurses who

:25:19.:25:21.

worked really hard every single day without patience. That is my job and

:25:22.:25:27.

I'm continuing to do that at the moment -- patients. Katrina Percy

:25:28.:25:32.

was defiant in those few minutes when she spoke to us. She

:25:33.:25:37.

essentially said that she contests the findings of this NHS England

:25:38.:25:41.

commissioned report. She said they had failed to understand the numbers

:25:42.:25:47.

they had provided to them. She also went on to say that the trust here

:25:48.:25:51.

is not an outlier in terms of the number of unexpected deaths that

:25:52.:25:56.

occur. She said as well that they have now changed their processes

:25:57.:26:01.

overhauled their processes, in fact, and in their words they now contact

:26:02.:26:05.

every family in the process of an investigation. One of the key

:26:06.:26:08.

findings of the regional report was that in nearly two thirds of cases

:26:09.:26:12.

the trust did not involve any families at all.

:26:13.:26:18.

Thank you, Michael. Thank you for joining us today.

:26:19.:26:25.

We'll have a special report from Germany speaking

:26:26.:26:28.

to Syrian refugees trying to make a new life there

:26:29.:26:30.

And overweight women are warned they're risking their health -

:26:31.:26:34.

we'll speak to one woman about her battle to shed

:26:35.:26:36.

A man has died after he was shot during an intelligence led operation

:26:37.:26:48.

in the Wood Green area of north London this morning. There are no

:26:49.:26:52.

reports of any other injuries. Scotland Yard says the operation was

:26:53.:26:53.

not related to terrorism. Obesity is such a threat to women's

:26:54.:26:56.

health that it should be declared a national risk -

:26:57.:26:59.

according to England's Dame Sally Davies says obesity

:27:00.:27:01.

is so serious it should be a priority for the whole population,

:27:02.:27:05.

but particularly for women because too often it

:27:06.:27:07.

shortens their lives. We need to make women undertsand how

:27:08.:27:12.

it limits life in many ways and we need to, by helping women

:27:13.:27:18.

and everyone, make healthy options Climate change talks in Paris

:27:19.:27:21.

are extended until Saturday, to try to reach agreement

:27:22.:27:33.

on tackling global warming - but there are reports of progress

:27:34.:27:35.

in several crucial areas. A number of difficult issues have

:27:36.:27:41.

been partially resolved but further compromise is needed to conclude a

:27:42.:27:42.

deal. Businesses have reacted furiously

:27:43.:27:43.

after the government announced whether to expand London's Heathrow

:27:44.:27:45.

Airport. The Prime Minister has said

:27:46.:27:48.

the decision will be made next summer after further research

:27:49.:27:50.

on the environmental impact. Approximately 1 million refugees

:27:51.:27:59.

have been registered in Germany this year. Around half of them are

:28:00.:28:02.

Syrian. As the country adapts to the new arrivals are reporter has been

:28:03.:28:08.

to the east of Germany to meet two families. One German, one Syrian.

:28:09.:28:14.

This is Mohammed who is seven, Sophia, who is four,

:28:15.:28:23.

and Nor who is 18 months old.

:28:24.:28:28.

He came ahead of his family, overland to Germany from Syria

:28:29.:28:31.

He was imprisoned by the Syrian regime and so fled.

:28:32.:28:39.

In Syria, he worked in IT, and he is from a family of farmers.

:28:40.:28:45.

He has been granted asylum in Germany and so his wife

:28:46.:28:48.

and children were allowed to join him a month ago.

:28:49.:28:50.

They were flown over from a Turkish refugee camp.

:28:51.:28:55.

Then a week ago, his 15-year-old brother arrived.

:28:56.:28:59.

He braved the journey overland in the hope he could join them

:29:00.:29:02.

His boat almost sank on the crossing to Greece.

:29:03.:29:18.

Because he has been in Germany a year, his family are ahead of many

:29:19.:29:22.

They have an apartment and state benefits while he learns German

:29:23.:29:25.

This man has a daughter who is two, Sophia who is six.

:29:26.:30:01.

His wife Daniela and their youngest, Pierre, who is ten months old.

:30:02.:30:05.

Dirk has lived his whole life here, works in care for the elderly

:30:06.:30:09.

and they know refugees are coming to their town.

:30:10.:30:35.

And this is the new refugee centre, capacity 2000.

:30:36.:30:38.

It opened just a week ago in an old hospital to cope with

:30:39.:30:42.

This is where the new refugees in Germany end up before

:30:43.:30:50.

There have been lots of attacks on refugee centres in Germany.

:30:51.:30:55.

Somebody tried to flood this place before it opened.

:30:56.:30:59.

So the men doing security here said don't show their faces on TV

:31:00.:31:11.

because neo-Nazis could beat them up.

:31:12.:31:12.

One security guard agrees to be on camera and shows us around.

:31:13.:31:18.

There are single men here but many families have also

:31:19.:31:20.

My room is very small and there is no space for my baby.

:31:21.:31:43.

From a plane, an army plane shot him and he lost them.

:31:44.:32:03.

So this man is relaying an attack by a Nazi,

:32:04.:32:27.

we are trying to find out what happened.

:32:28.:32:29.

It was outside here and they asked me...

:32:30.:32:31.

Three refugees were attacked by two men with five dogs.

:32:32.:32:42.

There is some hostility here but it is at a peace compared

:32:43.:32:45.

Some people here don't think there should be

:32:46.:33:15.

so many refugees coming. Why do you think people

:33:16.:33:18.

Saturday afternoon in the town and there are two stalls,

:33:19.:34:14.

one representing each side of the refugee debate.

:34:15.:34:21.

Both had advertised they would be here in the local paper.

:34:22.:34:24.

Dirk and his family are here to see both.

:34:25.:34:28.

So he has just told me that the political party

:34:29.:34:31.

here are the former Socialist party here when this was East Germany.

:34:32.:34:33.

The other side is the AFD which stands for Alternative for

:34:34.:35:28.

A right-wing party that opposes the arrival of so many refugees.

:35:29.:35:42.

Many young guys are told that when you come to Germany,

:35:43.:35:44.

you will get a house, a lot of money and so on.

:35:45.:35:53.

When in Germany you say something harsh about asylum seekers it can

:35:54.:35:56.

very easily happen that you are going to be reported

:35:57.:35:58.

Do you mind if you are called racist?

:35:59.:36:07.

They can tell me whatever they want as long as they listen to me

:36:08.:36:11.

and think about what I am trying to say.

:36:12.:36:13.

Will your party grow because of the refugee situation?

:36:14.:36:18.

The majority of the refugees here are Muslim and Dirk

:36:19.:36:33.

gets involved in debates because of the negative things

:36:34.:36:35.

The man tells him Islam is not aggressive and that ISIS does not

:36:36.:36:40.

These Muslims hand out the Koran and said to locals that they do not

:36:41.:36:47.

need to worry as the numbers increase.

:36:48.:36:51.

And you can see Catrin's full documentary -

:36:52.:37:05.

"Welcome to Germany" - tomorrow night and Sunday night

:37:06.:37:07.

at 9.30 PM on the BBC News Channel and on iPlayer from tomorrow.

:37:08.:37:14.

You may have seen our studio discussion with various people who

:37:15.:37:19.

had experience of care, whether living in it or working in it. Judy

:37:20.:37:25.

said it is vital to hear these powerful stories of children who

:37:26.:37:30.

experience the care system. Ben said that there are amazing people doing

:37:31.:37:33.

fantastic work in residential care every day, trust me. Someone else

:37:34.:37:39.

said, is residential care failing? Yes, the system and staff are bad,

:37:40.:37:43.

they don't do their jobs properly or listen to the children's voices.

:37:44.:37:47.

Rogers said there is the problem, the children are no more important

:37:48.:37:49.

than the adults. Let's go back to our top story

:37:50.:37:51.

on that warning from England's most senior doctor that obesity is one

:37:52.:37:56.

of the biggest risks to women's health and must be treated

:37:57.:37:59.

as a national priority. Dame Sally Davies, who is the first

:38:00.:38:02.

female Chief Medical Officer, says the problem should be declared

:38:03.:38:04.

a 'national risk' in government planning - alongside

:38:05.:38:07.

terrorism, war and flooding. Earlier on in the programme I spoke

:38:08.:38:14.

to a former chair of the Royal College of GPs and size acceptance

:38:15.:38:20.

campaigner Catherine about their views on the issue, we have had

:38:21.:38:25.

quite a response from you on what Catherine has said in particular. I

:38:26.:38:32.

agree with Dame Sally, it is a public health catastrophe that we

:38:33.:38:35.

are walking into and have been for a number of years and if we do not

:38:36.:38:39.

address it, it will subsume vast amounts of health money certainly,

:38:40.:38:42.

and it will contribute to a great deal of illness and a great deal of

:38:43.:38:46.

problems that we will face going forward. Quantify it, why is it a

:38:47.:38:55.

threat? Take diabetes for example. It's accounts for a lot of the NHS

:38:56.:39:04.

budget and the biggest factor for obesity is diabetes so extrapolate

:39:05.:39:10.

that, vast amounts of our health money, a a year, is spent on a

:39:11.:39:15.

preventable condition. It is contributed to cancer. -- ?120

:39:16.:39:22.

billion a year. Most women who have knee replacements or osteoarthritis

:39:23.:39:28.

and all sorts of other issues. When you are looking at figures as your

:39:29.:39:32.

piece has shown, half of women are obese as adults, and we are seeing

:39:33.:39:37.

that in children, 20-30% of children are obese, really it is like

:39:38.:39:42.

smoking, you cannot sit back and say it is personal responsibility, we

:39:43.:39:46.

have to say, a good government has do act on the Public health and do

:39:47.:39:51.

something about it. My macro how to use it? I think it is deplorable. It

:39:52.:39:58.

is scare tactics, talking to women in such a way that they feel they

:39:59.:40:01.

are overweight and therefore destined for a terrible future which

:40:02.:40:04.

is not true. Statistics do not bear that out. We are looking at bigger

:40:05.:40:10.

studies than these pronouncements. If you are moderately overweight,

:40:11.:40:13.

you can live longer, this is a Spanish study, I am sure you are

:40:14.:40:17.

aware of it. If you look at the National office of statistics, you

:40:18.:40:19.

will see the biggest killer for women in the UK is Alzheimer's and

:40:20.:40:25.

dementia, followed by heart disease and respiratory problems, said Tammy

:40:26.:40:30.

about these figures, this report is nonsense. -- tell me. We need to

:40:31.:40:34.

talk about something much more serious than if they are overweight.

:40:35.:40:38.

To position it before Christmas is terrorism in itself. Sally Davies is

:40:39.:40:43.

the most senior doctor in the country... Why she not addressing

:40:44.:40:48.

dementia, the biggest killer in the country? -- why is stop why she not

:40:49.:40:53.

talking about respiratory health? People die with dementia, there is

:40:54.:40:58.

skewing of the figures. We talking about obesity, and like smoking it

:40:59.:41:03.

contributes to a vast amount of money. Do you think larger people

:41:04.:41:10.

like to be large? Of course not. Do think we have not tried? If it were

:41:11.:41:16.

preventable or possible to cure it, we would do it. Every large person

:41:17.:41:21.

that gets up in the morning said, I still fat, great, we try and we

:41:22.:41:27.

work, but we know obesity... Catherine, I unbelievably... To

:41:28.:41:34.

equate this with health is a dangerous precedent. I am in

:41:35.:41:38.

agreement with you, I am a GB and I see this every day. This is not

:41:39.:41:41.

about attacking individual women. -- GP. It is about a public health

:41:42.:41:50.

issue. This has to be done at government level. This has to start

:41:51.:41:58.

with children and advertising, and this is not about blaming women. I

:41:59.:42:02.

never said one woman, have you thought about your weight? It is

:42:03.:42:09.

obvious, we look at ourselves in the mirror, 10-15 times a day. This is

:42:10.:42:15.

about saying, we cannot do nothing. Graham says woman with hair in barn

:42:16.:42:19.

is awesome, she speaks the uncomfortable truth. A doctor says,

:42:20.:42:23.

I see the long-term effects of obesity, heart disease, you cannot

:42:24.:42:29.

dispute the facts. A man has been shot dead during a police operation

:42:30.:42:34.

in North London. Our report is at the scene. What happened? We do not

:42:35.:42:41.

know much information but the police are still on scene and over my

:42:42.:42:45.

shoulder, you can see a white police tent there, just outside the house

:42:46.:42:49.

where this happened. What we know is that this was a lease intelligence

:42:50.:42:54.

led operation, the man was shot around 9am, armed officers attended

:42:55.:43:01.

the area. We don't know who the man is, what his condition is that we

:43:02.:43:09.

know that back in July, a man in his 40s was shot outside a cafe and that

:43:10.:43:16.

was related to gang issues. We have no reason to believe the issues are

:43:17.:43:21.

related but we know this man was shot by police in the early hours of

:43:22.:43:30.

this morning. Thank you very much and thank you for your company

:43:31.:43:33.

today. Thank you for all your messages. Obesity got to talking and

:43:34.:43:42.

also our discussion on what to do with children's care homes. Martin

:43:43.:43:49.

is overseeing that review and will us again. Have a lovely day,

:43:50.:43:55.

thereby. -- check in with us again. Bye-bye.

:43:56.:43:58.

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