14/12/2015 Victoria Derbyshire

Hello, it's Monday, it's 9.15, I'm Joanna Gosling in for Victoria,

This morning: in an exclusive in-depth interview the last British

resident to be released from Guantanamo Bay describes

torture at the US detention facility as "a way of life".

Shaker Aamer also tells this programme how he felt being reunited

with his wife and family in the UK after 14 years being held

I did not neglect, I didn't just let her go.

The 48 year old also tells this programme some of his abuse

at the hands of American guards was witnessed by British

intelligence officers who did nothing to stop it.

He was accused by the Americans of being an al-Qaeda terrorist.

You were an Al-Qaeda operative they said.

Not at all. Prove it.

Prove anything that you say is true, prove it.

Throughout the programme this morning we'll bring

And you can watch the full version on our programme page.

Also ahead: A dramatic rise in the number of newborn babies

I had everything ready, his cock, his pushchair, his Moses basket,

even his bedroom sorted. Then I had to leave hospital with no baby, just

Then I had to leave hospital with no baby, just his stuff.

Hello, welcome to the programme, we're on BBC 2 and the BBC

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by going to add topics and searching Victoria Derbyshire.

This morning in an exclusive, in-depth interview the last British

resident to be held at Guantanamo Bay tells this

programme that torture at the US detention facility was a way of life

and that some of his abuse at the hands of American guards

was witnessed by British intelligence officers who did

Shaker Aamer was accused of being an Al Qaeda operative

and a close associate of Osama bin Laden.

He tells us that all the claims against him are "lies".

The 48-year-old was held for nearly 14 years without charge or trial

initially at Bagram, a US air base near the Afghanistan

capital, he was later transferred to Guantanamo Bay

Speaking to Victoria just weeks after he was released from American

custody on 30th October he tells us how it felt to be reunited

with his family, including a son he had never met before.

How a US guard threatened to rape his then five-year-old daughter.

How British intelligence officers witnessed his head being slammed

repeatedly against a wall whilst he was being held at Kandahar

airbase in Aghanistan in a technique called "walling".

How he made friends with ants in Gunatanamo Bay to get

through his periods in solitary confinement.

How he has no idea how he survived but always knew he would be released

one day and that he would be prepared to return to Guantanamo Bay

if it helped to close the detention facility.

We'll play you the first part of our exclusive interview in just

a moment, but first our reporter Jim Reed has his story.

He was the last British resident left in Guantanamo Bay and one

of the most controversial inmates, with so many questions

about his case still unanswered 14 years after he was first detained.

He was born in Medina in Saudi Arabia in 1966.

In his 20s he moved to the United States,

even working as a translator for US personnel in the first Gulf War.

He came to the UK in 1991, met his British wife,

The youngest he has only just met for the first time.

In 2001, he took his family to Afghanistan, he claims

The US claims he was an Al-Qaeda operative and a close associate

In late 2001, he was picked up by bounty hunters looking

for foreign fighters and sold to the US.

He was taken to Bagram airbase near the Afghan capital Kabul.

It was there his story gets even more murky.

Shaker Aamer alleges he was tortured, beaten and strung

up while being interrogated at Bagram and he says that treatment

was witnessed by British intelligence officers.

At one point he claims he was held at Bagram with another man

No photos exist of the Libyan who is now dead, but it was

he who was alleged to have told US investigators that Saddam Hussain

That information, which turned out to be false, was used to help

between Iraq and Saddam and Al-Qaeda is because there was a relationship

At one point in his detention Shaker Aamer claims he made a false

confession to end what he says was torture, so on Valentine's day

in 2002, the US military flew him to Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.

Through his time there he says he was beaten, subjected to sleep

deprivation and held in solitary confinement for long periods.

Two years ago, a US news programme was broadcast from inside the camp

when he began shouting from his cell.

You cannot walk, not even have a meter without being chained.

In 2007, he was cleared for release by George W Bush.

Despite a formal request by then Foreign Secretary David Miliband

American authorities refused to let him go.

The same thing happened again in 2009.

He was never charged or put on trial.

But campaigners worked hard for his release.

British politicians spoke up on his behalf and he was flown

Guantanamo on this jet and six weeks ago landed back on British soil

where he is now being treated as a free man.

Throughout the programme we'll play you different parts of Victoria's

exclusive interview with Shaker Aamer.

There is some graphic description as he talks about his alleged abuse.

You can watch the full interview on our programme page,

We'll start with Shaker Aamer describing how it felt to arrive

back on UK soil for the first time in nearly 14 years.

At the very beginning of the interview Mr Aamer recites

an Islamic prayer which asks Allah to guide him through the interview.

Knowing that I am coming back to my family, it was hard to believe

sitting in that aeroplane thinking that definitely I am going back,

thinking how I am going to face it, how I am going to be with the kids.

And seeing your wife and your children, including your youngest

who was born on the day you were transferred to Guantanamo Bay, give

us an insight into that moment. I know I was going to fall down and

start crying. My wife was going to guide me through it. It I wanted to

see her by herself, knowing that she would be comfortable with me. I did

not neglect, I wanted to show her, I did not let her go. What were your

first words to her? I am back. What were her first words to you? She was

just crying. She was crying and then I started crying. And then your

children, tell us about that. It was hard, it was really hard. I needed

to know who they were, how they think, how they do things, what they

feel about me. What was her advice to you before you met your children

and saw your youngest son for the first time? The first thing she said

is they love you so much, they have been fighting for your release so

much. She just told me and I tried to relax. She said just be you. I

assure you they will love you. But I am still scared. I am a father who

did not practice his fatherhood for 14 years. I left them when they were

little, tiny kids, cuddling them all the time. Even though it was a happy

moment, it was sad. It was happy that I was seeing my kids again, but

it was so sad that the feeling is not that they are my kids. They look

at me and they are trying to know who is this person? I feel like they

are just looking at the stranger. Did they run to you? No, not at all.

Even though it is sad to say that. They are teenagers, they just stood

there. I was running to them. You ran to them? Yes, I rented them.

Everybody cried. They were just standing there. But thank God now,

things have changed. Things have changed a little bit and they have

started to realise that their dad loves them so much and he is trying

to do everything to comfort them, to be there for them and they are

coming along Little by little. How did you introduce yourself to the

Sun you have never seen, your youngest? I have been asking myself

when I was in Guantanamo Bay every day, how I am going to make him

understand that I love him as much as I love the others and it was not

my fault. The first time I started talking to them I told them I want

you to understand I did not leave you. We were forcibly separated. I

do not want you to blame me or your mother for what happened. We were

victims of circumstances. I still hope they understand that. What is

it you are enjoying most about freedom? Freedom itself. Just to

wake up and know that nobody is going to tell you what to do and how

to do it and to wake up knowing that you are not going to be shackled for

every step you take out of that cell. I lost my freedom for 14

years. I want to go back to 2001, if that is OK. You decided to move to

Afghanistan with your British wife who was pregnant and your three

young children. You move to Kabul. Why? I lived in this place for five

years before I went to Afghanistan. Four out of the five years I was

homeless. At the same time the way my wife appeared wearing the hijab,

the way I was, wearing an Islamic dress and walking around, you can

see these guys are practising Muslims. It was hard, it was not

easy, it was hard, because people talked and said rubbish things about

you and your wife. Eyes were chasing you everywhere you went. Why did you

move to Kabul? I wanted to be able to feel free. Under the Taliban?

Under the Taliban at that time it was not that horrible. We were led

to believe that you move to Afghanistan to work for a charity,

is that not accurate? It is not an official charity that was

documented. It was our own way of helping that society. Ben 9/11

happened. Sometime before Christmas you were captured by the Northern

Alliance, a group of fighters who were anti-Taliban and you say they

tortured you. Can you tell us about the kind of torture you received at

their hands? I was not captured really. I was on the battlefield

fighting and somehow they captured me there. But that is not the

reality about most of the people in Guantanamo. This is important for

you to understand. There was no capturing, there was no fighting

with a lot of people. It was a business. We got sold many times.

And in the hands of the Northern Alliance what did they do to you?

For the whole two weeks all they did was take you outside and beat you

with cables and sticks and accuse you of killing their leaders. They

did not even ask questions, they did not want to know anything, it was

total revenge. You killed our leader and we are going to kill you all. I

did not understand, what should I say to them to let them understand?

I have only been here two months. But in the end I found out they

wanted me to say one thing and they would let me go. What was it? That I

worked with Osama Bin Laden and I was with Al-Qaeda. And you said it?

I said it, definitely. Why did you say it? Because of the torture. Was

it true? Definitely not true. I think initially, you expected the

Americans to treat you well. Yes. As soon as you arrived, you say, abuse

by US soldiers began, for example you were taken to a concrete room

and ordered to remove your clothes. Yes. They ordered me to strip naked

in front of a lot of men and women, and soldiers, and, it was shocking

for me, it was shocking. But actually they were doing it for if

sake of the humiliation, for the sake of breaking me. Alongside hue

mission Asian you say there was beating and something called

walling. Tell us about that. That is when somebody grabbed me head and

smacked it to the wall behind, back-and-forth. And all what I am

trying to do is resist, hitting back, but I was in shackle, my head

was smacking the wall, back-and-forth, and then, suddenly

my head is just down. Ist just my eyes are closed and you know,

thinking what is going on? Because you know, all that, my vision I am

sure is, I can't even see what is going on, because everything in my

mind is running round and as soon as I opened my eyes there is nobody in

the room. Everybody is out. But the moment of impact. Just pain, pain

after pain, I just, you know. All I am trying to do is protect my head

and trying to pull back. It is all back again. It is not like you can

even think about it. You know, all what you, I think all what you can

think about is how to save your head from blowing up and they sat me

down, the wall behind me, and they start talking to me, all of them at

the same time. One guy with a Finnish accent. One is an English

accent, another with a Russian accent and two guy, the one who have

MIR case, the American, he called himself Tony and the other one is

John. And some other people sitting and they just, asking questions,

they don't even want to wait for the answer. They don't want to know the

answer. I was like why are they asking if they don't want to hear

the answer. Later in the programme we'll bring

you more of that interview including Shaker Aamer's claims that British

intelligence officers witnessed alleged abuse at Bagram

and his comparison of his time in Guantanamo Bay with Harry

Potter's the Prisoner of Azkaban. You can watch the full interview

on our programme page On the specific claim that a British

intelligence officer witnessed his alleged abuse,

both Mi5 Mi6 have a policy The US Dept of Defense say

they do not tolerate the abuse Getting in touch from that tweet.

Jailed without charge or trial is unacceptable on any occasion. Gerry

on Facebook poor guy has been to hell and back and for UK military

personnel not to help is beyond contempt and Daniel on Facebook asks

what humanitarian work, who did he register with, where is his proof?

More on Shaker Aamer later. Thank you for joining us. Still to come.

There's been a big rise in the number of newborn babies

being taken into care in England - we'll have all the details.

We'll be live at Westminster for the latest on whether David Cameron

stands any chance curbing in-work benefits for EU migrants in the UK.

The last British resident held at Guantanamo Bay,

Shaker Aamer, has told this programme he doesn't intend to take

legal action against the government over his imprisonment

Mr Aamer also says British intelligence officials witnessed

some of the abuse he claims was inflicted on him by American

interrogators at a prison in Afghanistan in 2002.

I have no doubt that I did not do anything wrong to deserve what

happened. I know, justice will prevail. Years after years after

years, justice will prevail. It took 27 years with Nelson Mandela to get

out and to be the President of his country. It took me only 14 years to

prove to the world I am the good person and they are the bad.

Children's services departments in England, which are judged to be

failing vulnerable youngsters, face being taken over

by high-performing councils and charities.

Experts will be sent in immediately to run child protection services

at Sunderland City Council, and departments at other councils,

judged inadequate by Ofsted will be taken over unless they improve.

One of China's most high-profile human rights lawyers has gone

Pu Zhiqiang is facing a lengthy prison sentence for a series

of irreverent tweets he posted on social media,

questioning the legitimacy of Communist Party rule.

There's been a dramatic rise in the number of newborn babies,

Researchers from Lancaster University found that about 10%

of the babies that are removed at birth will be returned

to their mothers at the end of care proceedings.

Some may be looked after by other family members, while others may go

into foster care or be placed for adoption.

The British astronaut Tim Peake is making final preparations ahead

of his launch to the International Space Station.

He's due to blast into space tomorrow morning from Kazakhstan

for a six-month mission, which will see him and his team

carry out a variety of experiments and tests for researchers.

Let's catch up with all the sport now and join Ore and all eyes

on the Champions League draw later this morning.

Morning you are right. Everybody loves a football draw, especially

after Saturday, when England was drawn to play against Wales at Euro

2016 next year around as you say, today is the turn of the Champions

League, Chelsea, Arsenal and Manchester City all representing. It

is simple. Two pots, eight teams in each. Group winners will play

against runners-up, but it gets less complicated. We will be talking

about Test cricket as well, because England start their tour of South

Africa later on in about 24 hours' time. Steven Finn has been added to

the side after he recovered from a stress fracture in his foot. There

is a lot of love for Chris and Gabby Adcock who become the first British

pair to win a World Series title as they did it as husband and wife.

There's been a huge rise in the number of newborn babies

In seven years more than 13,000 babies in England were in effect

born into the care system, meaning they were removed

from their mothers after they'd been born or shortly after.

More than 2,000 newborn babies were taken straight into care

One in three were removed from teenage mothers.

And almost half of mothers already had other children in care.

One mother, Louise - not her real name -

neglected her first child and had her second baby taken away

I had everything, I had his cot, push chair, hiss Moses basket. I

even had his bedroom sorted for him. And then, I had to leave hospital

with no baby, just a balloon and my stuff. It tore me apart, crying and

crying and crying. Even now, I still cry and it has been nearly two years

The Education Secretary, Nicky Morgan, who is also

Women's Minister, told the BBC that the Government wants to get

tougher on social services that fail vulnerable young people

But we know sometimes there can be a sort of a cycle of continued

failure, somebody who was perhaps abused or didn't have the good

parents role model, then they have their own children, they can't do

that, they have their children taken away, that is why today we are

announcing that those children Social Services departments that are

failing, will be taken over, social workers do a difficult job and

making decisions about for example taking away very young children and

putting them into the care system. But we know there are failings, we

know there can be failings of leadership and management, and we

know that by bringing outside people in, very experienced, they can raise

standards which is the right thing to do for vulnerable children across

Joining us from Carlisle is Claire Mason, senior research

associate at Lancaster University and co-author of the report.

In the studio is Nick Crichton, a family judge who sits on the board

of the charity Pause, which works with women whose

And Cathy Ashley, chief executive of the Family Rights Group,

which supports the families of children in care.

Thank you both for coming. You have a huge amount of experience dealing

with families like this. Cathy first of all. Tell us what it is is like

when you see these women, having baby, that are taken away because

they just can't keep them. It is incredibly harrowing hearing their

stories about just the process of actually their babies being removed

from them. Often these mothers are expected to go to court one days,

weeks of actually giving birth, and you can imagine the mental state,

and one of our frustrations is that actually, far too little is being

done in terms of working with these mothers, in the early stages of

pregnancy, but also, after their children are removed, they are just

often left adrift, and it is not surprising they then get pregnant

again, and in fact, the more children are removed, the shorter

the space between them getting pregnant another time, so we are

really neglecting children and these often young women by not working

with them, both in pregnancy and post removal. You see it from the

perspective of sitting in the courts Nick, what is your view when you see

these women? I completely endorse what Cathy has said. It is important

to remember that the courts function is to consider what is in the best

interest of each child. And if, as we frequently have, you have a woman

who has serious issues, with the misuse of drugs and alcohol, with

mental health issue, living in a domestic violence situation, is that

child going to be safe? Frequently, these are mothers who have already

had one or two, in one case I had to remove the 14th child from the same

mother, because she had been completely unable to connect with

services which were designed to help her, but once the child has been

removed, there are no services or very few services put in place to

help her to understand what has brought about the removal of that

child, and help her to get into a better place. The family drug and

alcohol court, which has been running for eight year, which an

initiative which I was initially able to start, and we are working

intensively with parents in these situations, trying to help them to

get into a position to provide good enough care for this child, because

if we can enable a mother to hold on to this child, the risk that she

will go on having another child every year indefinitely is

significant reduced. Let us bring in Claire Mason, one of the report's

author, your task in compiling the report was to talk to the mothers

whose experiences were being drawn upon for the report. That is right.

We were hearing there about how often these women are having babies

again and again to replace the baby that they lost. Just tell us what

these women are like, have been like you have have been talking to? There

have been common factors for all of them. Yes I had spoken to 72 women

who had been through the sickle you have been describing. It is

important to remember they are not all the same. They have a unique

story, but certainly we all the same. They have a unique

able to see some themes emerging from the data, and from those really

important interviews, think as Cathy has outlined, these are vulnerable

women, they have had, faced a number of adversities in their own

childhood and have problems in their adulthood. Domestic abuse was a

common feature as was childhood trauma, sexual abuse, maltreatment,

neglect I think at the moment little is being done to support these

women, particularly after they have had a child removed. And we are not

looking at how we can better help them with those traumatic

experience, rather, we are layering another traumatic experience by

removing their child and leaving them alone to cope to pick up the

pieces. You are all saying the same thing, which is that these

pieces. You are all saying the same not getting support, I have, I have

read that you have been described previously, Nick as seeing this was

a mix of empathy which you have got, but exasperation.

Absolutely, we cannot just go on processing people. If we are going

to remove a child without doing anything about the core problems, we

are condoning more and more children being taken into the care system.

Very small children who are adopted can do very well, but the slightly

older children do not do well in care. We have to address these

problems. The family drug and alcohol cord is doing significantly

better in ordinary care proceedings in helping these women. You are

saying the help is not always there? Yes. The London Borough of Hackney

have identified that of 320 children they have in care, 205, from 49

women. Across the country local authorities are beginning to come up

with very similar figures. The Pause project is still quite young, so we

await the evaluation of that. It is similar in terms of giving extra

help? It is the same cohort of women with the same difficulties that

Claire is talking about. We do not need small projects trying to deal

with these problems. We need to have local and national government

beginning to address these issues and provide the support because the

emotional cost to these children and their parents is immense, but the

financial cost to the taxpayer is immense. We need to understand that

and start working in a coordinated way to help this significantly small

number of people who are providing a disproportionately large number of

children for the care system. One of the interesting findings from

Claire's interviews was the large number of care leavers amongst the

population of mothers who are having children repeatedly removed. The

report that has just come out says there is a significant number

teenage mothers. These are hardly children themselves. One of our real

concerns is that actually support is going in the opposite direction for

many young women in this situation. The welfare reforms are being

discussed today by the House of Lords and they will reduce benefits

for young parents. The pressures on them are getting harsher rather than

us looking at these very bold rubble young people, many of whom is a

society we have had responsibility for them in childhood. --

Coming up: Getting ready for blast off.

We'll have the latest on the final preparations by British astronaut

Tim Peake ahead of his launch to the International Space Station.

It's a big week for David Cameron and his plans to reform Britain's

relationship with the European Union.

He's heading to Brussels later this week for his first face-to-face

But he's having a rough ride in the press which is casting doubt

on his plan to curb benefits for people coming to Britain

Joining us from Westminster is our political correspondent

Chris, lots of bad headlines for the prime

minister with the papers saying he's backtracked on this

There is talk of a climb-down and capitulation. The Sun newspaper says

he is pathetic and gutless. But when you speak to Downing Street they say

nothing has changed and they pointed to a letter that was sent by the

Prime Minister to Donald Paskin, the president of the European Council

last month, where he set out what he wanted to achieve. On this crucial

issue of suspending benefits for four years, in work benefits like

tax credits for migrants, they say that this is something he wants to

achieve, but he is in listening mode to see what other European leaders

are willing to suggest. This is what the Prime Minister said about four

weeks ago. We propose that people coming to Britain from the EU must

live here and contribute for four years before they qualify for in

work benefits or social housing. We should end the practice of sending

child benefit overseas. I understand how difficult some of these welfare

issues are four other member states and I am open to different ways of

dealing with this issue, but we do need to secure arrangements that

deliver on the objectives set out in the Conservative Party manifesto to

control migration from the European Union. Downing Street say this

proposal is still very much on the table and will be on the table in

Brussels at this summit on Thursday were all 28 leaders will be around

the same table, talking about EU and the British for the first time, all

in one room. David Cameron has had lots of one-to-one talks with

leaders, but on Thursday they will all be there at the same time. There

will not be a resolution then, that will roll on into the New Year, but

Downing Street say they hope to make progress. But is there a wisp of

compromise in the? Philip Hammond has just been giving an interview

and we hope to give you that later on BBC News. He is in Brussels. The

hint, the subtext of the interview is again one of compromise. He says

that four year wait for in work benefits is the only proposal on the

table when it comes to changing access to benefits, but they are

willing to listen to other ideas. When the papers say there is

capitulation, Downing Street said that is not. But just because it is

on the table, it does not mean it will actually happen. Boris Johnson

has been saying things about this? Yes, in the Daily Telegraph he says

EU is not ready for compromise, but he points to Denmark where they have

had an opt out regarding the ability to buy property if you are a

foreigner. His argument is if the Danes can do that for property, the

UK can do that for benefits. Downing Street say it is not a proposal on

but it might end up there before the week is out.

Still to come today: Shaker Aamer, the last British resident to be held

in Guantanamo Bay, tells this programme some of his abuse

at the hands of American guards was witnessed

Tomorrow British astronaut Tim Peake will blast into space,

propelled by 300 tonnes of rocket fuel, and head

He's going up in a Russian spacecraft.

He's had to learn Russian because that's the language

He'll spend six months on the ISS, on his first ever mission.

Tim Peake's parents, Nigel and Angela, are at

the Baikonur Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan, where the rocket

They told the BBC's science correspondent Pallab Gosh how

I am not worried, I am very excited. We have had a lot of support from

the European Space Agency and they have taken us through every step of

the way and I feel confident we know what is happening and very excited.

Has Tim said anything to you? He is a fine and he is wearing to go. He

is trained, ready, happy. They are altogether and waiting for the big

liftoff. You must be very proud? Immensely proud and a bit overawed

when you get here and see the scale of this operation. Tim Peake and the

other astronauts have been in quarantine in Kazakhstan for a

fortnight in the hope they will not get ill in space. He revealed what

he is looking forward to. I hope for education and outreach. It is a

wonderful opportunity to inspire a new generation of scientists and

engineers. We have the most ambitious educational programme with

this mission of any European space mission. Some of the experiments

will be a lot of fun with the kids. The second part of the question, it

really has to be the view of planet Earth and as much as I have spoken

to astronauts and as much advice as they have given me, nothing can

truly prepare you for that moment and that will occur in the

spacecraft once we get injected into orbit and I will be able to look at

the window and see that wonderful view of planet Earth.

Joining us is Dr Robert Massey who's deputy executive director

I wanted to pick your brains about what goes on up there. What happens

on the International Space Station? It is not a huge orbital platform

that brings together astronauts from many different countries, it is also

a place for research. Tim will be doing things like experimenting with

alloys, they will be looking at medical experiments regarding the

human body and also look at biology. Space is a harsh environment. There

are some things that seem to function up there and you can put

biological samples outside and see how they fare after months or years

of exposure to radiation and incredible temperatures. Can these

experiments be simulated on earth? To some extent, but you cannot

stimulate -- simulate the no gravity environment. You cannot do it in the

way it is done in space. About ten years ago a report was commissioned

on the scientific value of human space exploration and people on the

panel were sceptical, but they came away concluding it was the right

thing to do. These people are very hard-nosed and they were worried

about the money. $100 million. The ISS is a very expensive project, but

it is a cost spread over many years, two decades, and shared between a

large number of nations, including the UK, there are 20 member states,

the United States, the Japanese. When you divide that some by the

number of countries and the period of time it does not look quite so

bad. He has said it is a stepping stone to going to Mars. Is it? How

far off is something like that? It is quite a long way off, at least 20

years and probably longer, but he is absolutely right in the sense that

if you do not understand all the issues around radiation and

microgravity, and how people get on board on the space station and the

psychology and not being able to communicate directly with people on

earth for a long time, all of those things are important. He will

simulate controlling a rope from space. It may well be that in the

first Mars missions you have people orbiting the planet and controlling

a robot on the planet. They will be simulating that. We heard from his

parents and his dad has said he is more worried about him driving under

27 and going into space. If it was me, I would not be quite that

sanguine. The Russians are pretty good at this, but his parents are

right in the sense that the Russians have a very good track record on

this. They have been running the Soyuz spacecraft for getting on for

50 years and it is very resilient. I think this is about as safe as it

gets. And when you look at what he will be doing tomorrow he will be

travelling for six hours at 17,500 miles an hour to hook up with the

International Space Station. It is incredible. What is amazing is it

gets from the ground to orbit in about ten minutes. Then the rest of

the trip is a few orbit to line up with the space station. That used to

take a couple of days, but now you can get there in a few hours. It is

like taking a flight across the Atlantic. A bit more dramatic, but

it is incredible that you can do it in that short space of time.

We'll bring you all the build up to Tim Peake's launch into space

Still to come: All the latest news, plus in the sport with Ore.

Arsenal, Chelsea, and Manchester City will find out shortly

who they will face in the last 16 of the Champions League.

The draw will take place later this morning.

It is time for a weather update. How are things looking? It has been very

mild so far for much of December across much of the country. Many

people have had to mow their lawns. But we did have a taste of the

winter at the weekend. This picture was taken yesterday in County Durham

and you can see the extent of the fresh snowfall. This is not far away

from the areas affected by the flooding as well. Similar scenes in

Scotland. This is from Moray in Scotland. The final picture is in

Aberdeenshire. Beautiful scenes, and our first real taste of winter. It

has been pretty mild. Obviously not everywhere. Is it going to be a mild

Christmas? Things are looking pretty mild and pretty unsettled right up

until Christmas. The odds are fairly low for a white Christmas for many

of us. a mix of empathy which you have got,

but exasperation. Gl we would have record-breaking

mild weather in the week. Any sleet and snow clearing away from

Scotland. Our attention turns to this rain in the south-west, Wales,

pushing into Northern Ireland as well as we head through the course

of the afternoon, but for Scotland's, a slightly improving

story. So drying up but staying cold. We have that rain heading in

across Northern Ireland, but for much of northern and eastern England

things stay cloudy but largely dry, there is that rain affecting Wales

around southern land. It won't be particularly heavy and the

south-east of England and East Anglia probably set to stay dry into

the course of this evening. Reasonably mild out there but we

have that milder air sweeping in from the south-west. A breezy

picture too, so heading through the course of this evening and

overnight, a mild night with all the cloud, breeze round, we will have a

lot of hill fog by Tuesday morning and for most of us things are

looking frost-free but there could be a touch of frost in the far north

of Scotland. So Tuesday dawns on a be a touch of frost in the far north

cloudy but mild note, mist and hill fog, drizzle here and there, the

next band of rain pushes in from the south-west. That will be heavy, we

could see 20-30 millimetre of rain in ex poor and Dartmoor.

Temperature-wise, round about 8 to 13 or 14 degree, so very mild for

the time of year, particularly the further south you R windy in and

round that area of rain, it heads northwards and eastwards through

Tuesday, overnight into Wednesday, as well, so we still have enough of

a breeze, and cloud round, to see a frost-free morning again, on

Wednesday. In fact temperatures barely dropping down overnight. So

very mild, on into the middle of the week. This is Wednesday, further

showery rain in the east, later in the day, northern and western areas

seeing more shower, breezy at times and temperatures between round about

10-15 Celsius. So very mild weather throughout the

week ahead, things often fairly breezy and there will be further

rain on the cards but not looking as wet as we have seen it in the past

ten days or so. If you would like to be a part of our weather forecasts

you can join our weather watchers club, you can sign up to that, visit

the website. Hello, it's Monday, it's 10 o'clock,

I'm Joanna Gosling. Welcome to the programme

if you've just joined us. In an exclusive in-depth interview

the last British resident to be released from Guantanamo Bay

describes torture at the US detention facility

as "a way of life". He claims some of his abuse at the

hands of American guards was witnessed by British intelligence

officers who he says did nothing to stop it. Are you adamant there was

an English officer, intelligence officer s agent in that room? When

your heading with being beaten against that wall? I would say 80,

90%. I have no doubt he is an Englishman.

He tells this programme that he refused to let his spirit be

broken and went to extreme lengths to cope with life in isolation.

Animals, insects, all kind of things they do know us, they knew me, as

me. Because I used to feed them three times a day, with the food,

certain time, and they don't bother me, that is one of the things that

kept me going, I had somebody to talk to, I had some people to watch.

We will bring you that exclusive interview, you can watch the full

version or or programme page. you can watch the full version

or or programme page. Also this morning -

swiping to save a life. The NHS is teaming up

with dating app Tinder, to encourage users to sign

up to organ donation The last British resident

held at Guantanamo Bay, Shaker Aamer, has told this

programme he doesn't intend to take legal action against the Government

over his imprisonment Mr Aamer also says British

intelligence officials witnessed some of the abuse he claims

was inflicted on him by American interrogators at a prison

in Afghanistan in 2002. Children's services departments

in England, which are judged to be failing vulnerable youngsters,

face being taken over by high-performing

councils and charities. Experts will be sent in immediately

to run child protection services at Sunderland City Council,

and departments at other councils, judged inadequate by Ofsted will be

taken over unless they improve. China has said police acted

within the law after scuffles broke out outside court as one

of the country's most high-profile human rights lawyers went

on trial in Beijing. Pu Zhiqiang is facing a lengthy

prison sentence for a series of irreverent tweets

he posted on social media, questioning the legitimacy

of Communist Party rule. There's been a dramatic rise

in the number of newborn babies, Researchers from Lancaster

University found that about 10% of the babies that are removed

at birth will be returned to their mothers at the end

of care proceedings. Some may be looked after by other

family members, while others may go into foster care or be

placed for adoption. A British drugs company has been

ordered to pull some of its popular Nurofen painkiller brands off

the shelves in Australia, after a court ruled it had

made misleading claims. The company has admitted

to selling identical products marketed to treat specific types

of pain, for almost double the price The British astronaut Tim Peake

is making final preparations ahead of his launch to the

International Space Station. He's due to blast into space

tomorrow morning from Kazakhstan for a six-month mission,

which will see him and his team carry out a variety of experiments

and tests for researchers. Let's catch up with all the sport

now and join Ore, and all eyes on the Champions League

draw later this morning. Morning, another day, another

football draw, you remember how much excitement pulling a few balls out

after pot created on Saturday when England and Wales were drawn against

each other at the Euro 2016 tournament. Popcorn at the ready.

This morning it is the turn of the Champions League last 16 draw.

Arsenal, Manchester City and Chelsea the remaining English sides in the

competition. The Gunners will most likely have the trickiest opponents.

Top of the Premier League after yesterday's win, they scraped

through their group as runners-up so will be picked to play one of the

other group's winners. It has been a dreadful season for Chelsea so far

in the Premier League. Eight defeats from 15 matches has left them a

point off the relegation zone, it has however been a different story

in this Champions League. They, like Manchester City qualify as group

winners so should be rewarded with a more favourable draw. And it is

here, how the 16 club also line up. Group winners in pot one will join

pot two there is no danger of the Premier League sides facing each

other and no team can play a team from their own grueb. Arsenal could

a face Real Madrid or Barcelona while Chelsea and Manchester City

will hope to avoid Paris St Germain. The Europa draw follows

straightaway. How about this for a happy ending.

Husband and wife team Chris and Gabby Adcock who have created

badminton history over the weekend. They became the first British pair

to win the world superseries, they defeated the South Koreans. They

have already next summer's picks in their sights. We are so excited

about Rio, every athlete's dream is to be in the Olympics and obviously

win a medal, so, yes, we will obviously, there is a lot of

tournaments before that, but we will train harder and try and get better,

when it comes to it, I am sure we will be excited to get going.

And in 24 hours' time England's cricketers will begin their winter

tour to South Africa. Steven Finn has been brought into the squad. He

missed the Pakistan series because' a bone stress injury to his foot.

They will start with a warm-up game. Probably trying to find the best

combination of players and people who like now, they have become

automatic selection due to wickets they have taken or run or

contributions they are making to the side. There is a lot to play for,

you know, internally in the next nine, ten days. There will be a lot

to play for when the Test series get in the way, England not having

beaten South Africa in South Africa for 11 years.

Hello, thank you for joining us this morning.

Welcome to the programme, if you've just joined us.

We're on BBC 2 and the BBC News Channel until 11 this morning.

You've been talking to us this morning about our interview

Tweet from John - Americans should be deeply ashamed of Guantanamo,

I really hope the UK was not complicit too.

Text from Nigel - "It would help us to make an informed decision

about Shaker if he would explain what he was doing in Afghanistan

in the middle of a war zone and why he moved his family to the middle

An anonymous tweet - "He does not need to

prove his innocence - surely the onus is on the Americans

to prove is guilt, which obviously they could not do."

As ever we're really keen to hear from you this morning.

Texts will be charged at the standard network rate.

And of course you can watch the programme online

wherever you are - via the bbc news app or our website

bbc.co.uk/victoria - and you can also subscribe

to all our features on the news app, by going to add topics and searching

Shaker Aamer was held at Guantananamo Bay for five

thousand and eight days without charge or trial.

The British resident was accused by the US of being an al-Qaeda

He is now a free man having been released just over a month ago.

This morning in an exclusive in-depth interview he tells this

programme that torture at the US detention facility was a way of life

and that some of his abuse at the hands of American guards

was witnessed by a British intelligence officer who did nothing

Speaking to Victoria he tells us how US guards threatened

to rape his then five-year-old daughter.

He compares his time at Guantanamo Bay to

Harry Potter's The Prisoner of Azkaban, that he had attended

talks in London given by the Jordanian Abu Qatada,

a radical preacher who, as years went by, became

He saw one detainee being taken away from Bagram airbase in Afghanistan

This is significant because that detainee is alleged to have given

false evidence, under torture, of a link between Saddam Hussein

and Al-Qaeda, which led to the Iraq war.

He has no plans to take legal action against the British government over

the abuse against him intelligence officers allegedly witnessed.

You can watch the full interview on our programme page

Over the course of the programme we're playing you three parts

of that exclusive wide-ranging interview.

Some of his descriptions of his alleged treatment are graphic.

In the first part Shaker Aamer described how he was initially held

at Bagram airbase near the Afghanistan capital Kabul before

He described how his head was repeatedly banged

against the wall by US guards, he says, in front of a British

Are you adamant that there was an English officer, intelligence

officer, agent in that room, when your head was being beaten against

that wall? I have no doubt he is an Englishman, because the way he

spoke, the way he is very careful, the way he was sitting far away,

looking at me, you know, and because the day before, I met John who told

me I'm with the MI5 intelligence service and I came to ask you a few

questions. So I have no doubt he was an Englishman. Did this English

intelligence officer take part in the violence against you? No. Did he

make any attempt to stop what was happening to you No Could he have

done? Yes. Indeed, they can. If what you have said is true, then he was

complicit. Or maybe he's unable to do anything. Because I hear it from

others, not from him, not from John, himself, but I hear it from others,

that listen, this is all totally Americans. But you said he could

have intervened. He could. What else would British agents backbench aware

of in terms of your treatment at Bagram? Everything. I think they

know everybody. So the way you were held, the fact you were in cage, the

freezing temperature, the water being thrown on you, the

humiliation, the violence. Because one thing about me I have been

isolated from the day I arrived. I was by myself in a cage, all the

time and most of the time standing up. 18 hours a day. 16, 18 hours a

day, every day awake and every day standing up, sometimes with my hands

out and you cannot miss me. So British intelligence officers

would have seen you? Definitely. So you believe the British Government

knew that people like you were being treated like that? I do not want to

say the government. I think is the intelligence services, which is

different the government. After the walling, you were told to

tell the truth or you would die and a gun was left on a table in front

of you. Why do you think the gun was there? I was going to grab it and I

was going to kill myself, or the guards were told that I would try to

harm them. I just had my eyes on the gun and I was thinking, no, I am not

going to even touch that gun. I am going to do nothing. Just ignore it.

Think it is not there. Even though inside the temptation is great, just

end yourself here. This is it. But I resisted that feeling. I resisted

that hate. I would never harm anybody. Truly I cannot. Did they

say to you tell the truth or you will die? The whole thing is I told

them the truth, but it was not the truth they wanted. What did they

want you to say? That he is with bin Ladin. I believe that video was

being filmed that said I was with bin Ladin. And you sign a statement?

No, that is another lie. I never signed anything from the day I was

kidnapped until the day I left Guantanamo Bay. I did not sign a

single thing. At Bagram Libyan man was held there at the time as you

and one of your lawyers says you witnessed him being taken out of

Bagram alive in a coffin. Is that correct? Yes, it is correct, but I

want you to understand that truly the whole thing about this is very

critical at this time and there are a lot of things I cannot talk about

yet. I know the effect of what I have seen and what I witnessed is

not going to jeopardise my security and my safety in displays, so let's

leave it to another time. Would you like to see that then Prime Minister

Tony Blair and the then Foreign Secretary Jack Straw held to account

for what happened to you? The only thing I would like to happen was for

Tony Blair and whoever was in the government at that time to tell the

truth. Do you believe Tony Blair knew what was going on at Bagram at

that time? Definitely. They know what they were doing. If these guys

at the head of state do not know, who is supposed to know? After

Bagram you were moved to Kandahar. Did the same treatment continue? It

was absolutely worse. In what way? First of all, when I get to Kandahar

and they have something called a welcoming party where they really

beat you up. US soldiers? Yes, 16 jumping on your back, keeping your

head with their boots. Plus I spoke good English which made it horrible

for me. There was a guy next to me and they were doing horrible things

to him with their M-16. What? They are trying to shove their rifle in

his backside and the guy is screaming, I am not a woman. It was

so sad, it was so upsetting. Then I had to do something. I started

speaking in English. This guy is saying this to me. As soon as they

heard me speaking English, they just turned on me and started chatting,

he is a traitor. And I had it left and right and they did it for two or

three hours. That is one of the times I thought I was not going to

survive. I was speaking to my Guardian and pray in, this is my

last few minutes. How did you survive? Truly, I do not know. I

promise you I do not know. There were threats against your family at

that time. One particular interrogator threatened to sexually

assault your five-year-old daughter. Yes, that was the hardest thing, the

hardest thing I ever heard. What did he say? It was the worst experience

I ever had in my life. I was for ten days starving with no water, no

nothing and he was so horrible. That is the time he told me, your wife

and your daughter is with us and if you do not start talking, we will

rape your daughter and you will hear her crying, daddy, daddy. That was

completely inhumane. It was worse than the beating, worse than

everything, thinking about my daughter. I just sat there silent,

completely. For three or four days I did not say a word. And then he came

back and he tried to be Mr nice. He started to say, we are trying to

help you here. Anything. You do not know whether to hate him or to kill

him. I thought those times would never end, I thought I would die.

Did you genuinely believe they had your wife and daughter? Yes, I did

not know when I separated from my wife if she was safe in that house,

she could have been anywhere. She could have been sold to the

Americans. I just shut down, I did not speak to anybody after that for

four days. Where British officers at Kandahar as well? Yes. What did they

witness? I think they know what happened. Did you witness the

treatment? He saw me on the floor. He saw how miserable I was living.

Did he take part in anything? No. Mistreatment? No, not at all. I

would like to make a list of claims that the US Department made against

you, in 2007 it concluded you were high risk and were likely to pose a

threat to the interests of the US and its allies. None of the

allegations are true that they have been saying about me. You were an

Al-Qaeda operative? Not at all. Prove anything that you say is true,

prove it to the world. You held a senior position in a UK-based

Al-Qaeda cell. Allegations. You were a close associate of Osama Bin

Laden. Wow, keep going. How? Where is the British intelligence at that

time. Five years I have been living in this country, how come and

operative for Osama Bin Laden? You never communicated with them? You

never met him? No, definitely. If the British say otherwise, why

didn't you give it to the Americans to prove I was communicating with

him. You were an Al-Qaeda recruiter, Finance and facilitator with a

history of dissipating? That is a joke. You indicated your willingness

to become a martyr and served as a sub command and in the mountains in

Afghanistan. I have never been trained. In Bosnia in the mid-90s

you met Baba Ahmed who was later sentenced in the US for supporting

terrorism. In fact I was with him last night and I saw him after 15

years. We were all doing what everybody was proud at that time,

help the Bosnian people. Did you fight in Bosnia? No, I did not. You

lived in London with the only terrorist to be convicted for his

part in 9/11. I never lived in Brixton. Did you live with him? No,

I did not. I knew a lot of people, but it does not make me a bad guy.

You had links to well-known British jihad is like Abu Qatada and Abu

Hamza. I would be lying if I say I knew him. I know of him because he

was in the mosque. Abu Qatada used to break in his place. I used to sit

and listen to his speeches and I know he is not a bad guy. He is not

somebody horrible as they say he is. Described by Spanish studies as

Osama Bin Laden's right-hand man in Europe. According to my own

knowledge he had nothing to do with Osama Bin Laden and he never

preached about him in his circles and he never encouraged anyone to go

to Afghanistan. One final one from that department file, you admitted

you associated with the shoe bomber Richard Reid. Lies, I do not even

know who he is. He attempted to put explosives in tissue and get on a

plane. I do not know anything about him, who is he? This file containing

these accusations came out in 2007, several months after you had been

cleared for release by the Bush administration. What is going on? It

is amazing. These allegations came after they cleared me. And yet what

did they find out? After they cleared me they found that out? What

is going on? Because of the amount of knowledge I have because I am

talking. I never keep anything secret, I speak my heart and I am

not scared to say I know. The more they knew that I know, the more they

got scared. It is scary sometimes. It is scary after 14 years. They can

fabricate anything. They can do something to harm me, they can

intimidate me. You are talking about the government, you are not talking

about individuals. It is scary to think about being back again to jail

and being in the horrible situation I was in before.

On the specific claim that a British intelligence officer

witnessed his alleged abuse, both MI5 and MI6 have a policy

A spokesperson for the former British Prime Minister Tony Blair

says: Tony Blair has always been opposed to the use of torture,

has always said so publicly and privately, has never

condoned its use and thinks it is totally unacceptable.

The Foreign Office says: The UK government stands firmly

against torture and cruel, inhumane and degrading

The US Dept of Defense says they do not tolerate the abuse

All credible allegations of abuse are thoroughly

investigated, and appropriate disciplinary action is taken

when those allegations are substantiated.

I can't believe governments, secret services etc would spend

suspects who they think could be innocent.

It's frightening how someone can be imprisoned

without a fair trial for fourteen years,

Taliban or not, although clearly he was not.

Shaker had the right to a fair trial.

against the terrorists, other Muslims should take his lead

and point the finger at those who would terrorise us.

Thank you Shaker, I now feel that there is one

You can watch the full interview on our programme page

Later in the programme we'll bring you more of that interview

including his time at Guantanamo Bay.

The 48-year-old tells Victoria how he made friends with ants

during his time in solitary confinement.

The last British resident held at Guantanamo Bay,

Shaker Aamer, has told this programme of the alleged torture

Mr Aamer says a British intelligence agent witnessed some of the abuse

he claims was inflicted on him by American interrogators

Somebody grabbed my head and just smacking it to the wall behind,

Just pain, pain after pain, and all I'm trying to do

is protect my head you know, trying to pull back.

And all I feel is boom back again, you know.

There's been a dramatic rise in the number of newborn babies,

Researchers from Lancaster University found that about 10%

of the babies that are removed at birth will be returned

to their mothers at the end of care proceedings.

Some may be looked after by other family members, while others may go

into foster care or be placed for adoption.

The British astronaut Tim Peake is making final preparations ahead

of his launch to the International Space Station.

He's due to blast into space tomorrow morning from Kazakhstan

for a six-month mission, which will see him and his team

carry out a variety of experiments and tests for researchers.

Draw for the St knock out statements of the Champions League, taking

place in the next half an hour in Switzerland. Three English sides

will be there, Arsenal, are most likely to have the trickiest

opponent, they are top of the Premier League after yesterday's win

over Aston Villa but they just scraped through their group as oners

up so they will be picked to play one of the other's group's winner.

Breaking golf news we know the 2022 Ryder Cup held in Rome. It will be

be the third time in the event's history it has been held on mainland

Europe, the first was in 97 in Spain, France will host the 2018

edition. England's cricketers will begin

their winter tour in South Africa tomorrow. They have announced Steven

FBI has been added to the test squad. He missed the series against

Pakistan because' a bone stress injury to his foot. Husband and wife

team Chris and Gabby Adcock have created wad Minton history in Dubai,

becoming the first British pair to win the superservices beating the

South Koreans two games to nil. Keep your thoughts coming in on our

interview with Shaker Aamer. NHS Blood and Transplant

is teaming up with Tinder, the dating app, to try to get more

young people to sign up There are almost 7,000 people

on the UK transplant waiting list. And every day three people die

in need of a transplant. The NHS Blood and Transplant

campaign is targeting Tinder's 18-35 demographic to

educate and inform people of their potential

to be life-savers. With me now is Sally Johnson,

director of Organ Donation and Transplantation at NHS

Blood and Transplant. And in West Sussex we can

speak to Dr Simon Howell. He was born with a serious kidney

condition and he has been Sally, NHS and tinder, is not an

obvious hook up, how has it come about? I may not be an obvious hook

up but it's a great opportunity to get our message over to a group of

people who perhaps don't watch some of the mainstream media and will

interact with tinder and find a match. So it is the key demographic

of 18-35. It's a great opportunity to get to that audience. And so how

will it work? So basically, if you swipe right on tinder you will find

a match, and when your match comes up, if it is is one of the people

who are working with us, one of our celebrities, then it will highlight

why it is so important to find an organ match, and how long people

wait, to encourage people to join the register. Let us talk to Simon,

because Simon, I know you have been on the waiting list for a new kidney

for six year, what has it been like? It has been a very long wait. You

know, normal life has to go on, I have a family, I have young

children, and somehow you have to find ways to make things work,

despite being very ill. So what do you need a transplant for? Why is it

taking so long? I need a new kidney, both failed over ten years ago now,

and I had a transplant from my mother, but that only lasted a few

years, and I had to go on diagnosis, as you say, five years ago now. So

Sally, he has been waiting more than six year, why is it taking so long?

When you need a kidney you need one that matches your blood group and

tissue type. There are very few people I think realise how small a

number people die in circumstances where they can be organ donors every

year, so it is only ability 5,000, even potentially able to donate

their or gone, you have to die in precise circumstances and about 1300

of those will go on to be donors. Out of after that we have to find

somebody with the right blood match and tissue type match for Simon. I

keep hoping I won't see him appear in programme like this and we will

have found a kidney for him. He has been waiting way too long. It is an

ongoing issue o are things change something are more people signing

up? Yes, more people are signing up, we have got, you know, over a third

of the population on the organ donor register, but the difficulty is,

that although we have lots of people signed up, you have to, you don't

donate immediately, so, you have to wait for someone to die in the right

circumstances, to be a donor, so essentially we need everybody to be

prepared to donate, when and if they are in a position to do so. And to

join the register, and tell their families. Sally and Simon thank you.

We hope that something comes through for you soon, Simon. Thank you.

This morning's programme has been dominated by our exclusive interview

with Shaker Aamer, the last British resident to have left Guantanamo

In our wide-ranging interview he tells Victoria

what it was like to be held without charge or trial

The US claimed he was an Al-Qaeda operative.

His lawyers say the case against him came from unreliable allegations

extracted during torture, and that his treatment at the US

military base in Cuba raises serious questions about the legality

and morality of the so-called war on terror.

Earlier, you heard the 48-year-old describe alleged brutality

against him whilst he was being held at Bagram Airbase in Agfhanistan.

Brutality, he says, was witnessed by at least one British intelligence

In this final part he tells us about his detention

at Guantanamo Bay where he was kept in solitary confinement for long

periods and repeatedly went on hunger strike.

He also confirms for the first time that he won't be taking legal action

There is some graphic description in his answers.

On Valentine's Day in 2002 you were transferred to Guantanamo Bay. You

didn't know it at the time, it was the day your youngest son was born,

did you have any idea what to expect there? I just have a general idea,

but I was shocked. Not the first day, the first second I arrived. The

first thing they tell you when they drag you, they don't allow you to

walk, they drag you on your feet. They drag you, pulling you, and your

feet hit the stairs and all that and on the bus, and they said this is

the end, this is the end of your life, you will never leave this

place again. And then they tie you to the bus and the ground with the

chain and your hand, they tie you with your legs and then they start

hitting you left and right. Even though it was in that dark time, in

that dark moment of getting beaten up, left and right, then I reel

realise I realise it is not what they told us back in Kandahar, that

Guantanamo will be OK. How would you describe it? You know, the closest

thing for my mind is the Harry Potter stories because I read it.

They have an island which says Azkaban. Where there is no

happiness, they just suck all your feelings out of you. You don't have

no feeling any more, and truly, that is how I felt all the time, this is

Azkaban, this is not where this world. That is what they tried, you

know, they want to make you feelingness, they want to deprive

you from everything, anything, even the feeling of belonging to

something or you know, this is my self, you can't even say this is

myself. They keep making you do inside the cell that is against your

will. In terms of the interrogation you received at Guantanamo Bay, can

you describe that for us? They are not looking for answers, they just

looking to blame you on something regardless, if you are telling the

truth or not. How did these interrogations at Guantanamo differ

to what happened to you, you say at Bagram and Kandahar? In Guantanamo

they were more careful. It is more discreet, it is more, you know, all

the method of the torture in Guantanamo is like I told you like a

cover up for it so they can practise, all this humiliation,

because themselves, they feel like you know, like we are the people who

done it, so let us take revenge. Is You said in a statement in 2013,

that you were visited three times in Guantanamo Bay by British

intelligence officers. Yes. Were they involved while the

interrogations were going on? No. What did they see, of the way you

were treated? They just know about it, as I told you last time, just,

about the guy whose name was John, and Tony, he total me I know what

they are doing to you. We know. But I promise you one thing, when you

come back to England you will know we are not like them. Which made me

feel so good, so happy. And that was the first time, you know, somebody

really, I thought was sympathising with me, because the other two time,

they were just coming to interrogate me. You have described torture as a

way of life, 24/7, a world of mental and physical destruction Indeed.

Explain what forced cell extraction involved It has been designed by

psychologist, people they know how to manipulate you, how to make you

get scared, so the guard come and ask you for very little thing, like

a back of salt he didn't find in the meal. Where is the pack of salt, you

are not supposed to keep it? Maybe you didn't even have it. I said I

don't vet. Like I told you they start coming, there is like six

guards, and you will find yourself 15, 17 people coming towards you,

while all of these guards from the beginning of the block, marching

with big, you know, heavy steps, and ng towards you, while all of these

guards from the beginning of the block, marching with big, you know,

heavy steps, and you would be waiting "Oh my God" and everybody is

shouting they are coming, they come in front of the door and they start

shouting go down, put your face on the floor, put your hands behind

you, thing like that, because it head has to be in the toilet. You

have to stick your head with your own self on the toilet to let them

in. You will be say I am sitting on bed. They won't accept it. If you go

to the bed, that means you are asking for trouble. That means you

are refusing order, most of the time they spray you can gas, with that

pepper, pepper spray, for no reason, you are sitting there, just waiting

for them to come inside. But they won't. And they won't even accept

your hands to be shackled. So they spray you, and your face, and then

they come with the shields so fast and they just mash you in your face

and they push you down and the other guards they pull you down, throw you

on the for a, try to pin you down with your face on the toilet. It is

against my will. What can I do? They tie you from the back and they pit

your legs and push against your back. Until they shackle you and

neckache up you up and they throw you outside on the floor, which is a

very dirty floor, and they search you and they keep you in that

position for a while. Depends how much they want to put you under a

lot of pain. After that they put you request nothing, you can be sleeping

with nothing for days and days and days. And over what? Over a pack of

salt. Or the stem from an apple? Or the stem from an apple. It is

amazing, I want member when they hear the story, you are talking

about a stem. Why not give them the stem to avoid that? Because for

first of all, because I felt that is what they want, they want me to

submit to them, they want me to be broken and that is why as soon as

they leave the cell. Take the stem and show it to them. As much as they

want me, to be broken, as much as I wan to show them, no, you are not

going to break me. In one year, in 2012, more than 300, 370, 380 times

in one year, and I am talking about sometimes seven, eight, times in one

day. I think at one stage you did make

friends with ants in your cell. You know after the suicide, as they call

it, a suicide, the three brothers who got killed, they isolated me by

myself on Camp Echo, for two years in ten months I never left my cell.

Never seen the outside, and I end up making friends with all kind of

creature, one of them is the ants because they were beautiful. The way

they were doing thing, I never knew how much time I can spend with them.

I start watching them. I start learning the different ant, the

colour, the different way of doing things and it was beautiful, because

I learned so much and they became so friendly with me, that I believe I

do believe that animals, insects, all kind of things they do realise

us, they do know us, they knew me, as me. Because I used to feed them

three times a day, put them the food. Certain time, and they don't

bother me. And that is one of the things that kept me going, you know,

that I had somebody to talk to, I had some people to watch, some

insect to watch, to give me time, to you know... And there was a cat too

you looked after. Yes. Princess, there is a reason I call her

Princess, because you know, she doesn't just eat anything, and she

doesn't even go straight to the food, she goes and smell it, you

know and go round and she looks at you like, it is not a big deal, you

are not doing something much for me. That is why we call her Princess and

she, every time she and the other cats, we had another cat, and we

have so many of them. They keep hunting them and killing them,

because it brought so much joy to the brothers. We used to accuse sip

-- sacrifice so much. A lot of brothers used to hide the food, the

meat, the tuna, we used to get punish. If you feed them you get

punished so the brothers used to go through a lot from the early days to

feed them. And you read some birds as well? The

birds is a whole different story because you had to break the food

into pieces and mix it with jam. They love sweet stuff, I know it

from my younger times, I used to have birds. We used to mix it with

jam and honey and sneak it out sometimes. That is bringing some

purpose to your daily life. You have to. Especially for somebody like me

who has been isolated for all that time. You have to find someone,

something to talk to and I used to do that with the animals. You

referred to the deaths of three detainees. You said they took their

own lives. That is what they said. For me they committed suicide or are

they were killed, it is all the blame to the administration. What do

you know about what happened that day? I was isolated at that time and

I was in my cell and at 11 o'clock they came to me and they tied me to

the chair and that is when they started with the torture. They

started beating my legs, they started sticking their fingers in my

eyes and all the pressure points and I am screaming. The next day I was

sleeping and suddenly I see them running to me. For a whole month I

was under a lot of pressure. Why would three detainees picked their

lives at the same time on the same day? Honestly, I cannot give you a

short answer. There is a reason behind a lot of things happening

there. I promise you again when the time is right I will tell you the

true story about these three boys. You were cleared for release twice

when you were inside Guantanamo Bay, once and President Bush in 2007 and

was under President Obama in 2009. How did you come to terms with the

fact you had been cleared for release but it did not happen? The

first time when I got cleared and they came to me to send me to Saudi

Arabia, I felt really it was my fault refusing to go back to Saudi

Arabia. I felt like it doesn't matter if really I care for my wife

and my kids, I want to be with them, I have to sacrifice. I thought it

would be like a short time, maybe a few months and then they would say,

this guy is not going to Saudi Arabia, let's sent him to Britain. I

wanted to be cleared. But then they came back again to me in 2009 and

they told me, you are leaving again. I thought this time I am sure they

want me to go to Saudi Arabia and I will just tell them I need to go

back to my wife and my kids. Again I refused and again I felt like it

would not be long because President Obama promised I would leave this

place. I thought, it is not going to be long before I will be released.

You could have been freed in Saudi Arabia and your wife and children

could have joined you there. I never believed it would be easy for them

to join me. Especially because my wife waited for me all these years.

I felt obliged I was not going to go anywhere except to my wife and my

kids. In the 14 years you were there, did they break your spirit?

Break my spirit, no. Did I get tired or sick of what I was doing, or did

I feel like I needed to stop? Yes. Many times I felt, that is it. Did

you think you would get out? Yes, I had no doubt from day one I would

get out because I have no doubt I did not do anything wrong to deserve

this. I knew justice would prevail, years after years, justice would

prevail. It took 27 years for Nelson Mandela to be out and be president

of his country. It took me only 14 years to prove to the world I am

this person. Will Guantanamo Bay ever close? Yes. When? When will

that be? Very soon because that is what we are doing, telling the truth

about one-time obey. We are telling the truth that these things are

still happening. It is the way the story has to be told. One mode did

not change, it went through phases. The more it goes, the more it is

enhanced. The more they cover up, they do think secretly so people do

not know what is happening. One example, the floodlight generators,

running 24/7, which everybody can see because of the noise to the

hidden noise, the white noise. You would hear that constant noise

sitting in your cell which would drive you crazy. But you did not

mind the loud music? Sometimes because they used to hate it when I

used to sing to it. And what lyrics from Whitesnake a few consolation?

The words made me feel like it was me again. The words are here I go

again on my own, going down the only road I have ever known, like a

drifter I was born to walk alone because I know what it means to walk

alone and on this street of dreams here I go again. It is true because

it was just dreams that I would be home one day, dreams that I would be

free and dreams that Montana mode they would be closed. What do you

say to those critics who even now say you must have been a security

risk, that is why the Americans kept you locked up for so long? I am

here. Everybody knows me now, everybody sees me walking in the

street. I am sure time will prove I am not a risk. How much do you think

what happened to you and others at Guantanamo Bay is responsible for

the growth of Islamist extremism? I am sure there is a link. There is a

reason why these people came about, whoever is doing these acts. We have

to understand that is a reason and the great reason all agree on is

injustice, so injustice breeds all this anger and anger breeds all

these horrible things that happened after. Well part of your pursuit of

justice be pursuing legal action against the British Government? No.

You are not going to take legal action? No, not at all. Why not?

Because I do not believe the court will solve this problem, I do not

believe it will bring justice because of what happened in the

past. You are not interested in compensation? I cannot talk about it

for many reasons and that is beside the point. I do not want to

prosecute anybody, I do not want anybody to be asked about what his

role in the past was, I'd just want people to tell the truth. I am doing

it right now. We can understand what happened and stop it from happening

again. Let me tell the world the truth about Guantanamo Bay, let the

world know about what is happening because the world has the right

understand what is happening at this time. I hope I did something and

will carry on doing it and God willing I will close that place, I

will do my best to close that place. I am willing to go back. If they

need me to go back, to help close that place, I will go back. Thank

you very much. You are welcome. You can watch the full interview

on our programme page The Foreign Office says: The UK

government stands firmly against torture and cruel,

inhumane and degrading The US Dept of Defense say

they do not tolerate the abuse of detainees and: All credible

allegations of abuse are thoroughly investigated, and appropriate

disciplinary action is taken when those allegations

are substantiated. Lucy has tweeted to say, a harrowing

interview. Knowles says the two terrorists were the captors of

Shaker Aamer. If there was a case, he should have been tried. E-mail

from Bob, none of us know if he is guilty or innocent, but after 14

years without charge, he is entitled to the benefit of the doubt.

he is entitled to the benefit of the doubt.

Our Home Affairs correspondent Dominic Casciani has been

Will the British Government be worried about these claims that a

British intelligence officer witnessed his interrogation? They

already knew about these allegations and they had been known about for

some time. It is interesting to hear him talking about the details by the

first time. Let's go back to the statement from the British

Government where it says the UK stands firmly against torture and

cruel and inhumane and degrading treatment. The statement does not

say whether or not agents of the state in that period after 9/11 got

mixed up in the wrongdoing by other parties, liaison partners, their

international partners in the fight against terrorism. This is the big

unanswered question at the heart of so many detainees are' stories.

There is evidence that MI5 or MI6 officers were present or knew about

the torture or abuse of detainees and for some reason they were not

quite sure what to do when they came across this. It was in 2010 when the

government fully published the guidance it gives to intelligence

officials about what to do when they come up against torture. What was

going on after 9/11 is the big question. Will we get to the bottom

of it? We do not quite know. The government tried to launch a

detainee inquiry some years ago to look into these grave allegations

amongst all the detainees after 9/11. That was abandoned. The

security and intelligence committee is supposedly taking that work on

and its new chair has said that he personally wants to talk to Shaker

Aamer and take his evidence about what happened. But there are a lot

of people who are very suspicious about whether that committee can get

to the truth and that is why this is such a big issue for the government

Thank you for all your contributions this morning.