Episode 6 Sunday Morning Live

They show that gets to the heart and soul of the week's stories. Should

the victims of crime have a bigger say in the punishment of offenders?

The justice system is for the criminals. Can pray really heal? --

Prior. And the outspoken Baroness Trumpington gives us a piece of her

mind. When you were living with your husband as a headmaster's wife, you

smoked and drank and has behaved badly... You are making me out to be

a drunken old.... You also say you're not a worry -- well-behaved

Lord. That is true. I have lived too long in the wild, wild world.

And that is all coming up. Let's meet some of our guests talking

about the many topics that we are discussing today. Mehdi Hasan is

political editor of Huffington Post in the UK. He is usually tweeting

about us. Luke get her as is a criminal law solicitor. Mark Castle

spent 31 years in the army and has worked on policing issues. He became

the new head of victims support a couple of months ago. -- Victim

Support. And Katie Gornall is the Police and Crime Commissioner for

Sussex. We would like to know what you think. You can comment by phone,

text, e-mail, Twitter par Facebook. -- or.

If you or someone in your family is a victim of crime it can be

devastating. Surviving victims or close family members are allowed to

make a statement in court in front of the accused were they describe

the impact on their lives. It is designed to be taken into account by

a judge before sentencing. This week the experience of the parents of a

murder victim raised questions about whether victims statements carried

any Wade. My son was brutally murdered on the 23rd of March 2001.

any Wade. My son was brutally murdered on the 23rd of March On

that dreadful night we were taken into a crowded waiting room and told

that our son was in a very serious condition. He hadn't stabbed several

times. That site will haunt us forever. For Geraldine and Peter,

writing a victim statement was a very difficult experience. Last

week, a parole hearing was held to decide if the two men convicted of

the Sun's mortar would be moved to an open prison. -- the sun's murder.

The couple overheard a private conversation involving the judge.

The judge said to somebody else in the room, I feel so very sorry for

these families. They make these statements thinking they will make a

difference but they make no difference at all. Somebody should

tell them. Peter and I looked at each other in disbelief. We were

dumbfounded. The heartache that we go through to do these things, to be

told that it doesn't make any difference. It is quite sickening to

hear. Why have we done it in the first place? The judge has

apologised for his comments. He said while the statements had an impact,

they did not affect the parole board's assessment of the

prisoner's risk. I believe the judge was very honest. He didn't realise

that we could hear his Commons. -- his comments. But I think what he

was saying is exactly what happens. The justice goes to the criminals,

not the victims families. The couple now want more weight given to victim

statements and greater clarity about their purpose. It is all right

receiving bundles of paperwork that say they do listen to statements. In

our hearts, what we have felt for years and years is that they don't

listen to statements. That has now been proven to us, with us having

this little insight into how the system is working. Or should I say,

not working. Geraldine and Peter McGinty. That is the question for

our vote this week. Should victims have a greater say over punishment?

Results will be announced at the end of the programme. Mark, when you

hear what the McGinty 's are saying, it is heartbreaking? It is. What is

seen very clearly is the emotional impact it had on the couple. What we

have found is that the biggest issue here is victims feel they are

marginalised by the system and their views are not taken into account.

The judge said they make no difference and somebody should tell

them. The macro exactly. We need sentencing guidelines to reflect the

view of the victim. What harm has been caused to the victim? And the

impact it has had on them emotionally. The Crown Prosecution

Service the statement should be considered and taken into account

prior to passing sentence. As a? In reality, I do not think they are.

There are sentencing guidelines. They narrowed down the discretion of

the judge quite considerably. It is very rare for a victim statement to

make an impact on a sentence. What is the point? Exactly. These

statements are paraded before the court to give the victim is a sense

they have taken part, a sense they have been included in the process.

The law prevents them from taking a more active part in the process. The

tragic part about the couple is they were really let down because they

did not know their views could not be legally considered in the context

of that decision. The judge was right. They were let down. Katie,

the point of these statements was to put the victim at the heart of the

Criminal Justice Act system because they felt they did not have a say in

something that changed their lives. Is something wrong and can it be

redressed? Do these statements work? I think they do work when they are

taken seriously, search -- certainly pre-sentencing. How can a judge make

a decision without looking at a crime in its totality. Listening to

the impact on the victim, it is not just the immediate impact, it is the

long-lasting impact. Businesses can also make statements. They can talk

about the economic impact it has had on the business etc. There is almost

a cultural shift that needs to be taken. The more we talk about this

and the more we encourage victims to make these statements, I think we

will see greater benefit. You seem to be suggesting that judges do not

take into account the impact the crimes have had on the lives of

victims. I think they do. The guidance says they have two. But

with the McGinty family, this was at the parole board. While they have to

make decisions about risks to the public, there is still a place for

the statement of the victims. In Sussex we have an open prison.

People are being resettled there. They may be sex offenders. They are

going to have less control over these prisoners here. If they pose a

danger to the public, or worse still if their victim is close by, that

should be taken into account. That is taken into account. Victims talk

about the fact they do not want the offender to come too close to their

house, they can make that known and the judge will take that into

account. I want to pick up on something you mentioned. The

therapeutic value of these statements. Do you think there is

something in that? That they are still good to do if only the victims

feel their voices heard within a courtroom setting and the offenders

can hear it? Definitely. Victims should be heard. Luke raised the

point very well and Peter McGinty, poor man, raised it. What is the

purpose? The Ministry of Justice have not got it right in terms of

explaining what it is for. It does have therapeutic value. It could act

as a form of closure for people. It could even help an offender feel

remorse and begin a process of rehabilitation. I don't think it

should have an impact on sentencing. Why should the fact that a crime is

committed against somebody who is a family member, impact on that crime?

If I murder somebody with no family members, should I be punished in a

lesser way? I slightly worry about that. We do not want to have a knot

level playing field. In other words, if you do not have anybody to put

that case? Exactly. If you are an orphan or a recent immigrant with no

family. We have recently done a report in which only 16% of victims

felt that for what had happened to them had not been -- have been taken

into account. That is too low. When you say influencing sentencing, in

what way? To the extent where victims can say, I think that

offender deserves that amount of time? Victims are not asking to

dictate what sentences are. Victims accept the judiciary are there to

carry out that function. Where they are concerned is that they do not

feel they are part of this process. This is an adversarial process

between the state and the fender. And yet the victim, the individual

who has suffered harm and has the greatest impact, is completely

marginalised. We need to more than just talk about the victim being at

the heart of the Criminal Justice Act them, and put them into a

position where the impact can be taken into account. Should there be

tougher sentences? There is a fear that by letting victims be able to

make their statement at that point of sentencing, that sentences as a

result will become much more harsh. That is not what victims are asking

for. They want effective and appropriate punishment. That is what

the probation service said. 84% are looking for effective and

appropriate punishment. If somebody goes out and commit a street robbery

against a person and that person reacts quite well, doesn't make a

victim impact statement, doesn't feel psychologically --

psychologically damaged, should a person get a lesser sentence than

somebody who has gone out and psychologically damaged somebody? I

think is more about the actual statement itself. Should that mean

that somebody who has had that happened to them who wants to make a

statement, is denied the opportunity to make a statement? If you are a

victim of crime... I am consulting with the community remedy at the

moment, which is taxing low-level crime. Anti-social behaviour. It is

about when you have got a victim and an offender and the offender admits

the crime. It does not warrant them going through the court system. The

victim agrees. The victim has a choice of punishment. I am asking

the public in Sussex and all my colleagues in the country, what sort

of reparation would you like to see CROWD CHEER It could be anything

from an apology, a face-to-face meeting, putting the crime right in

the first place, mending the fence, or whatever. At the end it is still

open to the judicial system? Yes. The response we have had so far has

been massive. We have had nearly 2000 responses. It shows that the

public do want a say. There is a difference here between the public

having a say in victims having a say. That goes back to the

therapeutic value. And victims having a say over punishment, which

is what you seem to be suggesting. Kate and Luke. Luke raised, how can

you create different classes of criminals, those who've created

victims and died and left behind feels and those who haven't. That's

my worry. We want proportionate retribution rather than revenge from

individuals. People, of course they are going to react and say they want

more power. If you ask them do you want more power and they'll say yes.

We want a criminal justice system that people have confidence in.

Agreed. What we are looking at is a system where victims feel that what

has gone on is appropriate, that it has been effective. They all say to

us that they want the reoffending to stop. 91% say that. They are not

asking for harsh sentences, just for this to stop. And for more

involvement. That's what we are asking you this morning. Our vote is

still open, so do get Still to come on Sunday Morni Live:

Baroness Trumpington and her recipe for a settled life. It is very nice

of you to bring a bit of laughter to this world. And not dwell on bad

things, but try and go through life having fun and doing a good job. The

uneasy calm in Gaza this week seems short lived before the temporary

three-day truce was over rockets were fired and the air strikes began

and the death toll began to rise. It now stands at 2,000, 1,900 of those

Palestinians. Here, reverberations have been keenly felt, particularly

by the Muslim and Jewish communities.

In London, the Tricycle Theatre said it couldn't stage the annual Jewish

Film Festival while the organisers continued to receive some funding

from the Israeli Government. In Edinburgh, two Israeli theatre

companies cancelled shows at the fringe festival because of fears

over protests. And an increase in the number of incidents against the

Jewish communities has also raised concerns. There certainly has been a

connection between what's taking place currently in Gaza and the

anti-Semitism felt by the Jewish community in the UK. There is this

visceral and often violent feeling now in and around the Jewish

community that if I was physically looking Jewish I would think twice

about walking on the street and identifying myself as Jewish. Muslim

groups have also felt the impact of events in Gaza. HSBC wrote to three

of them saying their accounts would be closed because they are outside

what it called the bank's risk appetite. It said the decision

because not based on race or religion and was part of an overall

review of bank strategy. And in this week Baroness Warsi resigned over

the Government's stance in the region. Over the last four weeks

I've had everything I can at informal and formal meetings to try

to convince colleagues that our policy on Gaza is morally

indefensible, that it is not in British interests and it will have

consequences for us internationally and here at home. But in the end I

felt the Government's position wasn't moving and therefore I had to

on a point of principle resign. The Government has dismissed Baroness

Warsi's claims, saying policy has always been consistently clear,

supporting a negotiated two-state solution. I'm now joined to discuss

this situation in the UK by the Vice-President of the Board of

Deputies of British Jews, founder of the Jewish campaign group, and the

founder of the pro-Palestinian Palestinian group welcome all of you

to the programme. Jonathan, I want to start with you. We heard the

editor of Jewish news there saying there's a visceral and violent

feeling at the moment towards Jewish community. He thinks twice about

identifying himself as Jewish in public. Is that commonly felt? I

think it is a feeling that some Jews are experiencing. I'm not, but the

level of insecurity and deep concern about the environment around us is

greater than at any time that I can remember. Hannah, do you think this

is an anti-semitic feeling, an anti-Jewish feeling or anti-Israeli?

I think it is all of them. The general public are unable and the

Jewish community too are unable to work out where the boundaries are.

Questionable what is statements criticism of Israeli Government

spills over into anti-Semitism. What is an, what people perceive to be

anti-Semitism is just criticism. There's a lot of unpacking the the

British public has to do with regards to what is acceptable and

what is not. We were talking about the Tricycle Theatre, when it took

the decision to not go ahead because of funding from the Israeli

Government. The Tricycle Theatre is saying this is anti-Israeli and not

anti-Jewish and offered to help provide funding themselves to cover

for the lost that would be experienced. I think the issue with

the Tricycle is complex. I don't think it is anti-Semitic and the

Tricyclen't wouldn't have hosted the festival for the last eight years if

it was. That said, Israel is a core part of the Jewish community's...

And the Israeli embassy is more than t promotion of a current Israeli

Government I think for not all but the majority of Jews in this country

felt affronted that the State of Israel couldn't play a role in a

cultural festival. Some people feel that is anti-Semitic. I personally

don't but I think it was misguided. Jonathan, is there television in the

Jewish community about actions in Gaza? Not really. The

Westminstering, the overwhelming majority of the people are proud of

its achievements and democracy and concerned about its safety. It is a

very tiny country. From Gaza to Tel Aviv is 40 miles. That's the

difference from the top of North London to the tip of South London.

That's how insecure Israelis feel. Naturally, British Jews empathise

with that insecurity. I won't say that every single Jewish person in

the United Kingdom or the world thinks exactly the same. Of course

they don't. We are a diverse community with a vigorous democracy.

So there is dissent but you are saying not much. Would you agree,

Hoona? I think there is concern. I agree with Jonathan that the

community is deeply concerned with Israel's secure. What I would say is

in the space of week we've garnered over a thousand signatures from

Rabbis and others saying there needs to be a ceasefire and a return to

negotiations and this current round of violence has to end as soon as

possible. I think that one of the challenges the community has is that

how do you come out and say we've got to back peace? This can no

longer be for those who support the Palestinian or Israeli cause about

backing a football team. This has to be about us getting behind peace.

Mehdi, you wrote an article last year saying that anti-Semitism was

routine and commonplace among British Muslims. Do you think the

conflict in Gaza has made that worse? I think some sections of the

community, it is not a majority viewpoint but it does exist

unfortunately, and the Israel Palestinian conflict doesn't help

things. That's indisputable. Since July we've seen 2,000 anti-Semitic

incidents. That's a problem. Everyone has to get together, no

community, not Muslims, not Jews, not anyone, should be targeted for

their faith. I yield to no-one in my defence or the promotion of the

Palestinian struggle for independence. Having said that,

no-one should be blaming, Jonathan makes the point that the British

Jews defend Israel. I happen to think that they are incorrect in

doing so. That doesn't change the fact that they should be blamed or

punished for what Binyamin Netanyahu is doing in Gaza. We have not to

conflate British Jews here with Israeli Jews there. One caveat, what

we've in pro pro-Palestinian demonstrations, even Mark Gardener

has said compared to France, Germany, Holland, where there's been

rampant anti-Semitism, there hasn't in a in Britain. There've been a few

isolated plaque arksds which is too many, but people are demonstrating

not because of anti-Semitism. Would you think that sometimes it does

exacerbate the tension between the two communities in this country? Far

from it. I would say totally the reverse. The greatest cheer we get

from the podium is when you have a Jewish speaker and the crowd gets to

understand the difference between Judaism and Zionism. This is one

thing that's come out strongly from the podiums and pro-Palestinian

organisation in Britain. The ability to educate the British public

between about Judaism and Zionism. When people try to insinuate most of

the British people in, most of the Jewish people in Britain have an

affiliation with the Jewish state. Jonathan was saying most Jews

support what Israel is doing. I dispute that. There's a significant

number of Jews who walk with us, talk with us and are prepared to

share the platform with us. I'm glad to hear Ismail say that

anti-Semitism in the Muslim community is unacceptable. Very glad

to hear. But he's not right when he says and tries to draw drive a wedge

be what what he calls Judaism and Zionism. It is simply the Jewish

aspiration to have a homeland for the Jewish people. That's all it is.

Let me say straight away most Jews in this country are extremely proud

to be Zionist. OK. The positive message that came from what Ismail

was saying, and I don't know whether you would agree with this, is that

actually you can share the same platform and talk positively about

what might be done to find peace. I do agree. One of the Muslim

representative organisations, the Muslim Council of Britain, put out a

statement just a few days ago to say that, whatever our differences on

Israel Palestine, they must never be allowed to degenerate into

anti-Semitism and must not been allowed to hurt community relations.

Jonathan, can I ask a question? I spend a lot of time talking to

student groups. If a young Muslim person was to say, it is the fault

of the Jews, and my standard line is don't conflate Jews with Israelis.

Do you get, and I understand where you are coming from, the point about

the Jewish aspiration for a homeland, but someone at home, if

they don't follow the conflict closely, they hear you say, most

British Jews defend what Israel are doing, don't drive a wedge between

Zionism and Judaism... A really fundamental point. Right now, today,

in the name of Islam, atrocities are being committed. Exactly, and I

condemn them. If I said that muddied the waters. But it doesn't, because

most British Muslims... ALL TALK AT ONCE

Hang on, I think that what's missing from this conversation is this is

not about driving a wedge between Jews and Zionism. When we throw

around the term Zionism, the conversation we should be having is

actually people's opinions, positions, whatever you want to call

it, on an Israeli Government and their policy. Agreed. There are

many, many Jews in this country, all the polling of the Jewish community

says this, don't support certain things the Israeli Government does.

We don't have polling about this current conflict. It is incredibly

important that people see there is diversity of opinion. OK. Sit

difficult though, and you talked about diversity of opinion, whether

you are a Jew or a Muslim to express that diversity of opinion, when you

feel as though you are under attack? Not really. I think people are quite

open in expressing their views loudly for everybody to hear, for

example the Jewish community. We've got very strong support from the

Jewish community who are willing to be with us throughout and try to

walk the freedom for the Palestinian people. Are you experiencing the

same level of vitriol that Jonathan has heard of in his community, the

Muslim community? We have heard of it but I wouldn't say it is because

of the Israeli Palestinian issue. There's a shift to right-wing

politics. EDL, all these organisation, are trying to bring

about racist narratives within the country. I think we should

understand there is a shift towards the right. On the Muslim issue, is I

would like to debate this subject of Gaza, when we do Gaza I would like

to debate it as political issue. It frustrates me when the media and

ears make it a Jewish issue. It is not a ridge use issue for me. I

would support the Palestinians just as I would support the Tibetans

against the Chinese. I support human rights. Witness Warsi tweeted she

feels strongly about Muslim issues. As if it is a Muslim issue. It is

not a holy war in any sense. The point is whether it is seen as a

religious issue or a political issue, a land issue, it goes back to

whether in this country... Israelis occupying Palestinian

territory. There is an element of alienation. Some Muslims may be

scared to talk about it because they may be labelled anti-Semitic. There

is a fear in the background that if you come out there will be

repercussions. We have to overcome that and hopefully try to bring

about a change. We have thousands of supporters inside the community. It

is certainly the case that when the whole thing came out in the media

about the tricycle Theatre, a lot of people felt alienate it and

concerned. These are people standing up within the heart of the community

who support a cease-fire. The reality is it does spill over into

the Muslim, Jewish landscape. We all have a job to do in standing up and

supporting peace. Speaking out against extremism. It is incredibly

important these voices are heard. I work with students on university

campus and they say to us that they want a moderate pro-Israel voice on

campus. On non-Gaza issues, Muslims and Jews worked very closely

together. We have a lot of things in common. Allow me to sum up, if I

may. When you mention peace and that all communities should work together

to find resolution, all of you nodded. That is a good place to end

it. Thank you. Let's move on to our special guest

this week. She was a code breaker for a naval intelligence during the

Second World War. And then a government minister. She served as

part of the Royal household. Now Baroness Trumpington at the age of

91 is one of the oldest members of the house of lords, where she

recently offered a V sign to a fellow peer. Baroness Boothroyd said

this week that older members of the upper house should be pensioned off.

Baroness Trumpington shows no sign of taking the hint just yet.

Baroness Trumpington, lovely to see you. Lovely to see you. Come on in.

You have a very positive attitude towards life. Why does that come

from? You either have or you haven't. If you haven't, bad luck.

Big things do occur. If you suddenly have a fire, that was the most

shattering, when my flat caught fire. That was almost the most

shattering thing that ever happened to me. One moment I had a home and

everything and next I had nothing. Nothing. All I could think of, I

spent ?1000 which I have not got, to get knickers in Harrods and a

nightdress the next day. I haven't got anything. That is a lot of money

on knickers. Harrods is the wrong place to go! You had a very happy

marriage with Alan Parker. You were a headmaster's life. What was that

like? Absolute bliss. The 17 years I spent there were the happiest years

of my life, really. I had such fun. What is rather fun now is that old

boys from the school who are now frightfully distinguished gentleman

writing me terribly nice letters. -- gentleman. It sounds like you have

an unconventional approach to life. When you are living as a

headmaster's wife, you smoked and drank and behaved badly on some

occasions, and you have carried that into your politics as well. Why do

you carry that approach? I think you have made me out to be a drunken

old... It is in your book! You also say you are not a very well-behaved

Lord. That is probably quite true. I have lived too long in the wide,

wide world having to make my own way. I am so lucky to be in the

House of Lords with some of the greatest brains in this country. You

cannot but profit from listening to wise words. And some less wise ones.

Yes, you did rather memorably use a V sign when Lord King was talking

about people who had served in World War II looking pretty old. The

survivors of World War II started to look pretty old as well, as the

noble Baroness reminded me. Was it just a bit of fun? Exactly. And poor

Lord King has had to live with it since. Even his relations in

Australia wrote and said, how could you be so horrible to that nice

lady? I think he is a bit fed up with the whole thing. We are good

friends. It sounds like politics for you has been a really exciting time.

Your mayor of Cambridge. You were a counsellor before that. To go from

being a councillor to being a baroness, that is quite a journey?

In a way, finally not. I was terrified when I went to the House

of Lords. When I got there and sat down and listened, my God, it was

exactly the same as the little old Cambridge Council. Just as many

stupid men as there were brilliant ones. And just as many stupid

remarks as there were brilliant ones. In a way a much larger

setting, it was not all that different. It really was not. News

this week about baroness Parsee leaving on a matter of principle

because she did not like the Conservative stance on Gaza. Was she

right? I think it is very difficult to say. I think when she first came

in she was obviously very nervous in that position. Being foreign affairs

spokesman. But she grew into the job and she was jolly good. And I am

sorry that she has left. But I can understand it must be very difficult

for her. Have you ever thought of resigning on the point of principle?

Yes. A long time ago. I can remember being frightfully upset about

something. I cannot remember what it was! It was a nice cosy little

dinner in order to tell me that I had just been promoted. There was I

saying that I thought I might resign! But I didn't. Can I ask you

what gets you through the difficult bits of life? You lost your lovely

husband, who had a stroke and died a couple of years later. Do you look

to religion? Do you have a faith? Not really. If you have a little bit

of goats, -- if you do not have a little bit of goats, you're not

going to get through life. You have two trust yourself to a point. --

to. Of course one likes to think that other people, or other things,

are going to help you. But you have got to make an effort yourself. If

you want to have a clear mind. And a happy life. I don't know whether you

heard Betty Boothroyd this week saying that peers should perhaps

step down a little bit earlier than they would like to in order to make

way for fresh blood. Is that something that would ever appeal to

you? I think Betty Boothroyd is perfectly safe that she will not be

moved off the Lords list because she is not all that old. I am very old.

There are not many like me. I would miss it terribly. It is a bit late

in the day to say when I am coming up to 92. You might as well stay!

Exactly. I have got my memorial service all planned. I have got two

people lined up who are going to speak. I have chosen the hymns. One

of them is all things Bright and beautiful, which you may think --

think is odd. I love it, actually. It reminds one of one's childhood.

You have become a cult figure. I don't know if that is because you

are outspoken. Perhaps it was your appearance on have I got News for

you. I would like to know why, at the age of 90, I have had to sign a

piece of paper to be on this show, to say I was not pregnant. What was

that like? I have been known to say the wrong thing at the wrong time.

When I was interviewed by one of your colleagues, I said bloody awful

on a Sunday. She had an awful time getting it through. Lets see what

happens with this programme. Exactly. I feel like saying bloody

awful, bloody awful! I think you had better stop. The rather marvellous

Baroness Trumpington, who has just written a book about her life.

Earlier on in the programme we reflected on the repercussions of

the conflict in Gaza. Elsewhere in that troubled part of the board

there is another crisis in Iraq. The advance of Islamic state extremists

has led to the persecution and widespread flight of thousands of

people from the minority Christian faiths. It does led to President

Obama launching air strikes against the militants and there have been

parachuted drops of aid. -- parachute drops. A short time ago I

spoke to a member of the community in Iraq, currently studying for a

Ph.D.. You are from the area where the aid is being delivered to the

people stranded on the mountains. Have you contacted any members of

your family? No. I have lost all my family. I have no contact with them.

I have friends from my home town living there in the mountain. They

are trapped. Sometimes I get contact with them, to just know what is

going on in the mountain. Communication also is not good. What

do you know about what is happening in the area generally? You cannot

believe what is going on there because all of the people are

starving. They are dying from dehydration. The temperature is more

than 48 degrees. Just a mountain with no food, no water, no support,

no anything. Thousands of children, thousands of women, thousands of

older people. What about the villagers? There are three villages.

The four yesterday they gave them three days, forcing them to convert

to Islam. They gave them three days. Yesterday at 12 o'clock the three

days has finished. We don't know what will happen with those 4000

people, 4000 families. They are completely run over by Isis. Thank

you for your time. We do hope that you hear some better news about your

family very soon. Thank you. Joining us from the newsroom is a

doctor from the Caledonian church in London.

been happening in Iraq? Yes, and first of all when the ISIS came to

the city of Mosul they came quietly, didn't do anything wrong for the

first couple of days, just to assure everybody. And then they said

everybody should convert or pay the tax or they would be beheaded or

killed. Forced from the city with no belongings, all their assets and

belongings were taken from them. Their cars, money and jewellery.

They even chopped a lady's hand because they couldn't take the ring

from her finger. These people have walked to the mountains for refuge.

The ISIS group started to invade more and more places, so they have

to drive these people further up away from the Mosul city, more

towards the Turkish borders. Some of them left for Irbil, the Kurdish

area. They are lying and sleeping in the streets and parks and gardens,

cramped in the church, with no proper sanitary facilities, with no

proper food or water. They are living a very dire and very

difficult life. Why are Christians being persecuted in this way? Well,

I believe that they are the only, how should I say, rightful people

who can, their religion is the right one and everybody else is wrong. So

you are with them or you are dead, it is that simple. And that applies

to other versions of Islam, Shias or moderate Sunnis. ISIS believes

everyone should be with them or they die. Thank you for being with us.

Thank you. I want to talk to you, Mehdi. We are talking about

communities that have lived peacefully together for 2,000 years

around Mosul. Why is it falling apart like this? We've had 11 years

of conflict since the invasion, all sorts of civil wars and

insurgencies. What is happening now is pretty close to genocide, saying

convert or I do. ISIS, Islamic State, whatever think want to call

themselves, as your guest said, people were talking about it as

Sunni versus Shia. This is about a group that hates everyone. It is the

very definition of fascism, totalitarianism, whatever you want

to use. There is not a single Muslim I know, Sunni or Shia, young or old,

religious or sec iar, who thinks these people are anything other than

bar Beijing. These are a bunch of fanatics who think they are agenting

in God's name. 99.9% of Muslims don't agree with them. Prior to

their rival, even under the vicious Saddam Hussein, Iraq was a place

where Sunnis and Shias got along in the Middle East even. These Sunni

Shia tensions, Muslim and Christian tensions, are a recent phenomenon I

would argue. We shouldn't pretend this is about Muslims versus

Christians, this is a particular group with a particular ideology

which we should all abhor and repel. Mehdi, thank you.

The American evangelist Morris Cerullo has been playing to packed

audiences in London this week. He has a dynamic preaching style which

goes down well with the crowds who come to see him. To others he is a

controversial figure because of his belief that prayer can make

miracles. I'm asking God, this mission must not be another normal

conference experience. This mission must move the Church of Jesus Christ

in Europe, in London! London! I want every person who says Brother Morris

Cerullo I want God to raise my faith. If you want salvation or

healing for your soul, come. If you need healing for your physical body,

come. If you are a Pastor and Minister of a church and you need

God to do something specific for you, come and sing it while they

come. Come on! I am the ecific for you, come and sing it while they

come. Come on! I am the Lord. " I am the Lord that healeth ecific for

you, come and sing it while they come. Come on! I am the Lord. " I am

the Lord that healeth the. " ecific foryou, come and sing it while they

come. Come on! I am the Lord. " I am the Lord that healeth the. " " night

Morris Cerullo told us he couldn't make because of exhaustion. We are

asking whether prayer can cure illness or whether it is a myth. We

are joined by Dr Evan Harris, a medical doctor, and a member of the

National Secular Society. Anglian priest and director at the

evangelical alliance, and Dr Jackie Cameron, who is an or deigned

priest. Welcome to you all. I w up Morris Cerullo, what he was saying,

his point about you're healing the mind when you go to one of his

sessions but you are also healing the body. Do you believe that prayer

can make a difference to physical illness? Absolutely. I believe it. I

believe not because it is what he is saying but it is what the Bible

section what we believe as Christians and what I have

experienced. In terms of praying for people... Like what? Can you give us

an example of how someone with a serious illness was healed through

the power of prayer? Many years ago my own sister was flat out on the

floor. She was lifeless. I was a believer as a Christian, but I have

faith. I prayed for her and we saw her come to life. It was at the

moment when every single member of my family believed in the Christ

Jesus. I must explain something to you. There are two elements, there

is the element that's evangelistic, like Morris Cerullo, which is

healing, that demonstrates the power of God in public places for the

unbelievers to believe. And there is the pastoral one. We pray for people

in our churches. The question is have I parade for people who've got

ill? Absolutely. The power to heal doesn't belong to me, but to God. It

is only God that does it. Which is what he says himself. Evan, you are

a doctor and member of the National Secular Society. When you hear

people of great faith saying they do believe it can cure or affect

physical illness, what do you think? It is a fraud. Why is it a fraud? It

is a deception. There is no evidence that people are healed. If there

was, the whole of medicine would change and the history of gods and

miracles, not a single after tee for example, God discriminates against

amp tease, clear. He doesn't like those sorts of people. He finds them

unacceptable to be healed. He spends a lot of his time doing healing in

private and he spends a lot of time healing wealthy, medically insured

fundamentalist Christians in California and doesn't do anything

about the babies in Africa with malaria. It is a curious God that's

so selective. So I believe it is wrong to tell vulnerable and sick

people they can be healed by prayer and not by effective medicines, and

sometimes to seek donations for doing that. That makes it even

worse. I think that's a deception and a fraud. Most religious people

would say it was sinful. I can't understand why the Church of England

and the Catholic Church don't condemn this like they condemn other

forms of avarice, greed and bearing a false witness. Sadly he isn't

here. He has his own TV channel. Jackie, what do you make of Evan's

point, that it is effectively, broadly, fraudulent to say that you

can cure through prayer? LLOW Well ricks Well, as a scientist and a

doctor, I do believe that we need data. As a priest and a person of

faith I also believe that God is, God acts in the world. What we don't

know is how that happens. There's a broad stream of Christianity and

there are many different current within it. Some of those people,

some believe that God acts very specifically and directly in very

small aspects of our lives. Others of us, and I would probably fall

into this camp, believe that there are random events, that we live in a

world that's growing and evolving and changing. Random events like

myrrh cycles? Like for example gene mutations that can result in a birth

defect or cancer. I do not believe that God directs that sort of thing.

However, what I do believe, healing is a pretty broad topic as well. It

is certainly the case that for example spiritual, I work in

hospice, we see that butterual pain can result in physical illness. In

pain, nausea, shortness of breath. When you breathe with a spiritual

issue, sometimes you can realise physical healing. Evan? Yes, it is

certainly true that people can have panic attacks and the placebo effect

can have physical effects. People can be calmed and there is nothing

wrong with and-a-half I think, if you don't mind me say so, it is

wishy-washy to say some believe in this or that. Sometime politicians

lie to get adherence and so do some newspapers and businesses, but it

takes a special kind of bad person to deceive the vulnerable and the

sick, especially when preaching against hypocrisy themselves and

doing it. I think that mainstream religious organisations who are

sometimes seen as cuddly, the Church of England, the Catholic Church,

should say it is unacceptable, the charlatanry is un-Ebola. -Ebola. The

charlatanry is unacceptable. If you start thinking from research

secularism you would be thinking in this way. I am from Africa. We come

from place where is even medicine is so remote, is our faith, our belief

in Jesus Christ and in what we know that heals so many people Why isn't

Morris Cerullo in West Africa laying his hands in the Ebola crisis? Let

me finish. I am not talking about intellectual debate but what I've

experience, what so many people have experience. That God heals is

unquestionable. That God can those with with infirm Titian is not

questionable. Many people don't have medical science, all the things that

we have here in the West. Their only faith. So this is perhaps a clash of

cultures? ALL TALK AT ONCE

It is not a clash of cultures. It is a question of faith. You can't claim

something is true. The you are entitled to beliefs, but you can't

claim that something works by acclamation. I'm an evidence about

being sick and I've been prayed for and received healing. I've received

people that have been sick that have been prayed for. You are not asking

to substitute medicine with prayer am? No. No. Some people do stop

taking medicine. I'm afraid we'll have to leave it there, so perhaps

you two could talk outside and you give Evan his evidence and perhaps

that might change things. Who knows. You've been voting. Should victims

have a greater say over punishment? Here is what you told us.

A quick reaction to that result from Mehdi. I can't say I'm surprised, if

you ask people if you want more power to change things, they are

going to say yes. Thank you for being brief.

Thank you to all my guests here this morning and to our guests who joined

us else. Where thank you for your company. We'll be back next Sunday

at 10 o'clock on BBC One. I do hope you will join us. Goodbye.