Episode 7 Sunday Morning Live

Good morning, I'm Sian Williams, with the show that gets to

the heart and soul of the week's big stories. Coming up:

Britain is considering arming the Kurds in Iraq. But are we stoking up

trouble? The Premier League is up and

running. But fans are protesting that football is abandoning its

roots. And sparring with boxing great Chris

Eubank, who passes on some fashion tips, with fighting talk.

I am a formidable anniversary when it comes to the trouser. And we all

live at the Edinburgh Festival. Good morning.

-- we all live. Welcome to Scotland and Edinburgh, home of the world's

biggest arts festival. It is Edinburgh, over 3,000 productions

here, 47 different countries represented. This is the time of

year where Edinburgh does not sleep. I live here, but for many,

year where Edinburgh does not sleep. I live here, but for it will be the

first time they come here. If you have an act, get to Edinburgh. We

will keep in touch and react to the big stories of the day. And, Chris

Eubank, there is only one formidable opponent of the trouser, and it is

the kilt, my friend. First of the humanitarian crisis

that has been troubling governments around the world. More than 1

million people have been driven from their homes in Iraq because of the

advanced of the militant Islamic State biters. The recent fighting is

centred around northern Iraq. -- fighters. Kurdish fighters are being

outfought by extremists. America and friends say they will send more

military supplies to the Kurds but the government here says it will

favourably consider a request for arms from Britain. So should we go

ahead and give weapons to the Kurds? Lindsey German helped set up the

stop the War coalition 13 years ago. Tim Stanley, a historian. George

Hargreaves, a Pentecostal Minister. And a prison officer for five-year

is who turned to stand-up comedy. And a prison officer for five-year

five years. And we would like to know what you

The Prime Minister says today that a humanitarian response to the advance

of the Islamic State extremists in Iraq is not enough and if some

security response is needed including what he describes as our

military price. In the Sunday Telegraph today, he warns that if we

do not act to stem the onslaught of this dangerous terrorist movement,

it will grow stronger and it will target is on the streets of Britain.

It comes as the multinational relief operation battles to save more

lives. Aid to refugees, some delivered by

UK aircraft, is getting through, but with hundreds of thousands needing

help, it is not all task. Supplies of food and water are desperately

required but what people want is protection -- and not help task.

Reports extremists massacred 80 Yazidi men who refuse to convert

Islam has heightened fear. Tornado jets have in helping with

surveillance missions and special forces are thought to be assisting

in the ground. But that is as far as the government has been prepared to

go. -- on the ground. So the government is saying it will request

-- consider requests from the Kurds for military hardware, so is it

right to arm the Kurds in Iraq? You can only vote once and you can

vote online for free. Results will be announced at the end of the

programme. Lindsay, is it right to arm Kurds in Iraq? I have great

sympathy for the Kurds and I have great sympathy for the people

suffering at the moment. I am very much opposed to IS and also to the

Governor to getting involved militarily or for arming the Kurds,

we need to look at where the situation has come from. First, from

the intervention launched by George Bush and Tony Blair, it has come

from the arming of ISIS which has involved Saudi Arabia, Qatar and

Turkey. So we need to look at what is happening and not to say we will

have more military intervention. And we should look at the way the Kurds

have been treated. The largest Kurdish organisation is still listed

as a terrorist organisation in Britain and the European Union. The

point about intervention making the problem worst, if we intervene again

and we give the Kurds were ends, or that exacerbate the situation? --

weapons. Every reason she has given for not going in is a reason I think

we should go on. I was against Syria, Libya and the original Iraqi

invasion. But we have such show a responsibility to do something

today. It goes back to the First World War when we helped that

region. We unpacked that fragile balance with the Iraqi invasion and

we have a situation where we have this extraordinary face -- force of

the Islamic State which beheads people and crucifies people and its

goal is to extend the its enemies. It poses a threat to the Kurds, the

refugees, Christian and Yazidi, it poses a threat eventually to us

because so many of its fighters from Britain and other European

countries. So because we broke the egg is such a long time ago, we have

a moral responsibility to help the Kurds survive -- such a long time

ago. They are just struggling survival -- for survival so if they

ask for arms, let's do it. So we should give them the weapons? I do

not think so. I think it is a very Orientalist Abbey chewed --

attitude. Barack Obama is the fourth President of the USA to attack Iraq

and it is atrocious the conditions they have been left in. What danger

Will giving weapons lead to? We can see how it is working with ISIS

because they have been armed already, we created this problem. So

the weapons that went to Islamic State fighters are the very weapons

America gave to Iraq in the first place? But they were not given for

the purpose of killing Kurds. That is the point, as soon as you give

weapons to any group, you do not know what will happen. We need to

know as a nation, are we prepared to sit back and watch more genocide

happen? I am all for the debate Lindsey is talking about, have that

discussion, but have action on the ground. Because people are dying

today. This is exactly what was said in 11 years ago. We are not talking

about troops on the ground. It was said in Libya three years ago, it

was what was said in Syria last year. People say, we must do

something. But everything we have done has made it worse. We should

remember where ISIS came from, it came from Western intervention. I

want to talk about the Kurdish forces. I want to find out what the

Kurds want from Britain when they say they want more weapons. Let's

talk to the high representative to the UK of the Kurdistan regional

government. Thank you for joining us. Have you put in a formal request

of the British government for arms. --? I believe my government has not

done so yet but I am sure a formal request will be coming soon. What

would you be requesting? What do you want for the Kurds? I am not a

military person so I am not going to read out a list of what might be

required. But the fact is that ISIS have outgunned the people. But the

reason they are unlikely and has a history and it is a political

history, it is down to the policies of Maliki of marginalising the Kurds

and keeping ours and the Sunni population out of decision-making.

-- the reason they are without weapons. The reason the people are

in this situation is partly an Iraqi problem and also, ISIS, as your

guests have mentioned, got US weaponry supplied to the Iraqis. You

say you are not a military expert, at when you talk about Kurdish

fighters and what they need to fight the Islamic, British government

sources suggest that might be body armour and counter explosive

equipment, would that be enough? That may be enough, but there are

others who say we need artillery, even ammunition. We are even low on

ammunition, it is as basic as that. What happens if you do not get that?

If I may refer to some of the discussion you had, we are hearing

arguments that apply to events ten years ago. It is time people moved

in. We are where we are today in Iraq. -- moved on. The war was

right, it was wrong, people are dying today, ISIS is committing

genocide today against Christians, Yazidis, and others, and if we do

not stop them, the community in the Middle East will be at risk. Written

has interests in Iraq and the Middle East. -- Britain. They will come

after you, they are at war with you already and if you do not realise

that, you are not living in the real world. I want to put that to

directly to you, Lindsay, you living in the past talking about

intervention years ago. There is genocide happening now and if we do

not do something, it will come to these shores. We need to understand

this was the cause of the worsening situation in the Middle East. And

when people say it will come to us as well, Albert Einstein said the

definition of madness was that you keep doing the same thing over and

over again and expects to get different results. I am very sorry,

I hate what is going on in Iraq but many Kurds do not want American

intervention. And the people that had been helping the Yazidis do not

want that kind of thing, S strikes and so on. -- S strikes. It is a

complex situation. -- air strikes. There are many refugee problems in

the world. There was a terrible situation for Palestinians and we do

not get discussions about intervention, let's look at a little

sore -- political solutions. We did not intervene in Ukraine and Syria,

so why here? Western intervention may be much of the cause of the

current crisis but I am not interested in that, I am interested

in dealing with it. People are dying! I do not care about an

intellectual arguments, this is proposed is. About what went wrong

11 years ago. But if you take that argument about it being a short-term

approach and you look beyond that, the long-term strategy is looking

towards the future and saying, what is going to happen if we do give

weapons to the Kurds? It could lead to the break-up of the state. That

might not be a bad thing. This is about making up for the moral

mistakes of the past and one mistakes was that the Kurds did not

get the help. And when we liberated Kuwait in 1991, we did not support

the Kurds and their revolt against Saddam Hussein, we have consistently

let them down and I find it strange that some people on the left are

very agitated about what Israel ever does to people, they march about

that and they complain about that state. They do not march against the

Islamic State. They say they are concerned but they do not want to do

anything and I have not seen any of them marching against actions of

this terrorist organisation. We do not in ISIS, that is why there has

been a reaction to Israel -- one. -- we do not arm. We are going to stick

to Iraq and the Kurds, should we arm the Kurds? We have been inconsistent

all over the region and that is the problem. It is OK to say not to talk

about it, but there are British interests in Iraq, oil interests. So

we have to be aware of going in under a false pretext. What will

happen again is that we will recreate a power vacuum which is why

ISIS were able to rise. We are not saying to go in in the same way,

sending in troops. Some people are saying that. We have people with old

weaponry, running out of bullets, they cannot defend themselves. This

is the problem on the ground today. And if they do not have the means to

defend themselves, many will die and there have already been massacres.

As a Christian or even non-Christian, we cannot sit back

and say, let's have a debate. reverend, that you give weapons to

hurt one another. Tim will be aware of the concept of a just war. There

is a very famous German theology and who was part of the plots to kill

Hitler. Why? Because Hitler was a horror. So this is a just war? It is

not a just war. It has been a war for oil. One of the reasons they

want to support the Kurds is that there are major oilfields there. It

does not need the oil. There are huge American and is really

interests in oil. Let's just remember, three years ago, Libya was

bombed and arms were given to both sides. There is a civil war the

in-out and actually they had to evacuate British citizens two weeks

ago. This is what happens when you say, let's give alms. It is

absolutely destructive. However responsible is it to say that we

have had these terrible wars and you say, let's just talk about it now.

It's completely irresponsible. We are opening the discussion out to

you. Is it right to arm the Kurds

in Iraq? If you think it is,

text the word 'VOTE' followed by 'YES' - if you think it isn't,

text 'VOTE' followed by 'NO'. Texts will be charged

at your standard message rate. You've got around twenty

minutes before the vote closes. You can also vote online

at www.bbc.co.uk/sundaymorninglive. Results will be announced

at the end of the show. Still to come, fashion face and

fighting. One of Britain's more successful boxers, Chris Eubank,

tells us why he was drawn to the sport. Why boxing? I want it to

matter. -- I wanted to matter. Or to be precise the Premier League

- which kicked off yesterday. The Premier League gets worldwide

audiences and generates huge deals for

sponsorship and television rights. And after a record summer

of transfer spending, the players can afford to strut their stuff

on the pitch this season. On the sidelines though,

there are rumblings of discontent as some supporters try to get

their voices heard. Usually, they are chanting for their

teams but this week football supporters gathered in London

calling for more action off the pitch. In and you of record-breaking

transfers and big-money sponsorship deals, fans feel that they are being

priced out of the game. Clubs operate as businesses. They are

thinking, how much can we squeeze out of people. But it is a

short-sighted viewpoint. There's a danger that younger fans with less

disposable income cannot afford to pay these prices. Fans feel that

clubs are exploiting their loyalty. People love football. They are

passionate about it. It is more than a game, it is your identity and

sense of belonging. It plays on the loyalties of people who will pay

anything. The costs are appalling and they do not know how most people

can afford to go. They will not in the near future. Merchandise and

players wages are also a bone of contention. I do not buy the new

shirts for ?45 or whatever. Some people seem to be happy to pay it.

While people are, the clubs will still be charging. When you look at

the doctor saving peoples lives, they are not getting paid the same

money as a footballer. It is out of control. It is pricing football fans

out of the game. FA officials say that they will pass on the concerns

of fans but pricing is controlled by individual clubs. In a way, sounds

our customers because we pay the money just like customers, but there

is more to the relationship with a football club than just that, in

terms of the commitment and involvement. There is a recognise

Asian that that is a lot of what makes English football special and

marketable. -- recognise Asian. Well, we're joined now by Sports

presenter, Kelly Cates, As the daughter of ex-manager Kenny

Dalglish, you'd expect nothing else. Journalist and football fan

Lee Price, a devoted Man U supporter - but who's just published

a book called 'Turning And Jonathan Shalit,

who runs a talent agency in London, which includes sports stars such

as jockey Frankie Dettori and Welcome to you all. You turn away

from Manchester United, not just because they did so disastrously

yesterday. Why was that the case? And turned away when they were elite

champions. The Premier League is the greatest division in world football

unless you are a fan. The modern game is risking alienating those on

the stands, by pressing them out. They made so much money from the TV

deal that last season, they could have left every fan in for free and

lost no money. But now, the priciest, a season ticket is ?2014.

Extortionate. The cheapest one is ?1014, with Arsenal. A bargain(!)

For the working man's game, it is alien. As a fan, how much were you

paying? On the day, up to ?100. ?100! It is the players and the

agents and the sponsorship deals. Everyone else is making a vast

amount of money out of football and it means that the fans cannot afford

to go. I'm not sure it is true that they cannot afford to go because

Stadium is up and down the country are packed. I would argue that

football has never been more healthy and more wonderful. When I was

younger, it was dangerous to go and you had racism and violence and

police horses galloping across the turf. I remember at Chelsea, police

were galloping across the turf will stop now I can go safely and take

children. I can have a glass of wine, coffee, beer, in comfort. I'm

going to Chelsea's first home game next week and I'm going to see the

guy who set up the goal but Warren -- the goal that won the World Cup.

How exciting to see that in London. I do not think it is fair to blame

foot hollered -- agents. No one condemns a film star for $20 million

a movie. No one condemns an entrepreneur for making hundreds of

millions of pounds. It is a market. If football clubs overcharge the

fans, they will not buy a ticket. If the shirts are overpriced, people

will not buy them. It is a marketplace and people pay what they

want to pay. I think it is about who can afford to buy the tickets. If

you have generations of supporters in one family and somebody wants to

take their grandchild along, that they have supported, that the

appearance took them to watch, that is the fan that has been priced out.

Corporate tickets, people with season tickets can afford to pay

over ?1000, those people are not being priced out but there are a lot

of people who are. Football losing its soul, the fans are the sole of

football. It is all about success and the footballers and what happens

on the pitch but if you want to market football and to be a club

that has a great heritage, you have to have something intangible that

people can attach themselves to. And that is what fans provide. If you

televise football with no atmosphere, a group of fans who

turned up once in a blue moon and do not know the songs... But people are

still turning up. Not the people who have been going for generations.

Football is abandoning its roots. You say that football is the working

man's game, why should it belong to one section of society? It should be

open to all sections. What has happened in Germany is that the

Bayern Munich president came out, and they are ticket prices are very

low. He came out and said, look, we could charge an extra hundred pounds

for a season ticket, a lot more money, but to us that is ?5 million,

five minutes of haggling in a transfer deal. The amount of money

from tickets is not significant to them. You are a West Ham supporter?

My son is, so I am by default. You have to buy the replica shirts? Yes.

And what you think about the rights of football? I think you both have

good points. Definitely, there are people who have been going for years

and years who simply cannot afford it and that is not right. I think

the clubs should be able to provide something for the hard-core fans. I

do not think it is excusable to just say, you cannot come here any more.

I'm not sure about it being a middle-class sport. Public schools,

they do not even play football. You have fantastic family enclosures at

West Ham, but that is an exception. Actually, away games, fans are

falling, attendances are falling. It might be a minority but people are

going less and less because they can afford to. Some might argue that the

trouble that away fans bring makes it better that they do not go.

Hardeep Singh Kohli is in Edinburgh. What are they saying they are?

I'm joined by Andrew and Karen. It could not be a better day to be in

Edinburgh. You are the director of Motherwell, it is different in the

Scottish game. The premiership is the world's league. Global TV

audiences and huge sums of money. We are adjusting to a more sustainable

model. The clubs are embedded in their communities with stronger

connections to the fans. There is a distance to travel but we're

starting to get there. The Edinburgh derby today, both of those clubs

could go to fan ownership. It is changing. Both models can work but

it is different. You cannot say that the premiership is the same.

Jonathan made the point that it is a free market. Does that mean that

there is more customers? Scotland has the best supported league in

Europe in terms of the proportion of the public turning out to watch

football. Other supporters have more of a say in how the clubs are run.

We like to say that we have teams you can touch but the premiership is

almost unattainable. For us, it is closer to home. Karen, you are a fan

of West Brom so you are used to paint. Definitely. Fans are over a

barrel. Can they genuinely boycott? The revenue seems less relevant

heaven that huge sums of money involved in the game. If everybody

did boycott. But that will not happen. Logic does not come into it

for fans, it is loyalty. And the teams know that. They exploit that,

whether it is merchandise or ticket prices. Some teams make an effort,

letting children in for a pound or providing travel. There seems to be

logic and loyalty on the terraces but not in the boardroom.

Absolutely. Football is a beautiful game today, because my team won.

The general sense we're getting is that football seems to be pricing

out the ordinary fans, and it comes back to how much players are paid.

How much we have put into the stadium is, how much money is going

elsewhere, basically, which means that ticket prices go up. Does the

responsibility not fall to the agents who are getting 10%

sometimes, of big-money deals. It is not a question of fault. The

question is, is football in a good place? It has never been in a better

place. For many years, footballers were underpaid and treated

appallingly. Footballers are now rewarded properly for what they

achieve. You have to remember, the television rights in the UK alone

are ?3 billion. Why should the footballers not share in that?

Without the footballers, you would not have the sports to show. And the

outcry this morning is that you need better players, you need more money

in your pockets to go out and buy better players. And then this would

never happen. We're talking about business. The supporter is not a

customer. The ticket price is a drop in the ocean. They like to see good

players and the only way you can get good players is with wages. But that

is relevant to the supporter. And United have a world record

sponsorship deal. They have enough money without charging their fans

hundreds of pounds. I was going to say that there needs to be some kind

of social responsibility programme within football teams. I think that

would help. But in terms of paying players wages, I think that is a

different point. I think the money that comes in from ticket prices is

a drop in the ocean. The extra money that has come in from the television

deal, I read that that would be enough to send every fan to the

games for free. Obviously, that will not be happening and the clubs have

to be run responsibly. WHISTLE-BLOWERS. Well done. The rest

has blown the full-time whistle. We are out of time. -- the referee.

Why jokes about God can cause an almighty fuss.

I want to thank God for helping me win this award.

comedy world lost one of its brightest and brilliant stars when

Robin Williams was found dead in his home in Los Angeles.

The comedian, who had made us laugh for decades, had been struggling

with depression, anxiety and the early stages of Parkinson's disease.

Among those who paid tribute to him were his co-stars on

Mrs Doubtfire, one of his most loved films, where he played the

Actor and comedian Scott Capurro appeared in that film with Williams

and he joins us now from Edinburgh, where he is performing this week.

What are your memories of Robin Williams?

I auditioned for the film and I saw him at a comedy club and I was a

pushy actor and I said, I auditioned for your film. He said, which film?

Big ball of minutes later, I was set with a comedy icon. What was he like

onset? Very funny, very effervescent. He provides so much.

We shot a scene a couple of times and he would see what else he could

come up with. It was like a school yard, it was good fun, very playful.

It flew by, it was a great first experience. It is sort of the reason

I am here at the Edinburgh Festival because the film was such a big

success everywhere including the UK. I think it helped me to reach a

wider audience. How people react things? Have you talked to any

comedians about what has happened to Robin Williams and the effect it has

had? A comic said the other night, and I agree, it is like Elvis has

gone. Robin was an icon and an inspiration to generations of

comedians. Arguably the greatest comic of our time. And it just feels

like the world is less. It just seems like if that beautiful man, so

successful, and so loved, if he cannot be happy, what chance do we

have? I do not know the circumstances of his demise, but he

will be greatly missed by hundreds of comedians and viewers. It is

tragic. Thank you.

Depression can affect anybody and in its severest form, is devastating.

In our newsroom studio is Paul Farmer from MIND, the mental health

charity. Good morning, do you think the

coverage of his death has helped or hindered our understanding of mental

health issues? It has been an extraordinary week with an

outpouring of emotions. And distress. As a result of the death

of Robin Williams. Many people could be feeling more able to talk about

their own experiences and depression, anxiety, suicidal

thought, as a result of his tragic death and the attention the media

have put in it. So in that respect, it has been a help. But we have seen

poor coverage from some newspapers who have perhaps taken the

opportunity to try to delve too deep we into the means of his death and

the reasons for his suicide. In contravention to well-established

guidelines. In terms of raising the issue so people are more aware of

how depression facts all parts of society, our men more reluctant to

talk about this than women? -- how depression affects. Is there still a

stigma? We know there is still a big stigma around mental health and that

particularly applies for men were, typically, we are not good at

talking about our feelings and getting help from friends or family.

-- and we are typically not good. Nine out of ten people talk about

stigma and it affecting mental health. But slowly, attitudes are

changing and campaigns like the one we have run are starting to change

the way the public thinks about this. And for men in particular,

giving people permission to talk about their mental health is a task

that is well worth pursuing. We know the suicide rate among men

outnumbers that of women 3-1, so there is a benefit to encouraging

men to be more open about mental health. Thank you, and if you would

like more information about the issues we have discussed, you can

find details of organisations on the website.

The boxer Chris Eubank was a World Champion, intimidating in the boxing

ring. But outside, very much the English country gentleman, with his

riding boots and his suits. Some called him eccentric but he was

dedicated to his sport and he was beaten for almost a decade. But in

1991, a punch left his opponent brain-dead. Watson made a partial

recovery but the incident affected Chris Eubank deeply anti-retired in

1998. He is now helping his 24-year-old son Chris Eubank Junior

follow him to boxing success. I went to meet Chris Eubank senior

to talk about his faith, family and that fashion sense.

Lovely to see you. Thank you for being here. Easy question, why

boxing? I wanted to matter. And boxing seemed, at 16, to be the way

in which I could get that. Because I suppose fighting is always respected

by men. At 18, I could fight, I had learned the craft. And you could

never use it outside of the boxing ring. It is sexy to be able to fight

like somebody who is pushing you around and you are taking that on

and you have to look like you cannot fight because you do not want to

engage in a fight because it means you are a bully because you have a

skill set that the person who does not know how to fight does not have.

So it is control? How does that fit with your faith because your mother

was a very devout Christian? You grew up in the Church with a

peaceful way of life, how does that violence fit in with faith? It fits

perfectly. The objective is never to get into a fight, it is to defuse a

fight, which is what the instruction teachers. There is a contrast

between you as a man outside the boxing ring, who will not fight, who

has a very strong faith, and the man inside the boxing ring. I remember

watching you and you looked like two completely different people. The one

in the boxing ring is brutal and frightening and aggressive because

you need to be. That is your sport. The aggression is only an act. It is

an act that has been back test because it replicates the same thing

every time. -- practised. You have to have a demeanour. And you have to

want to hit them. The people who want to hurt do not get anywhere.

The people who want to score points of those who rise. I am interested

in your beliefs and values. Who you are. We talked about Christianity,

which you grew up with. Then you converted to Islam when you were an

adult, why did you take that decision? I took that decision

purely because it is a statement of code. This instruction, from all

these rocks. -- box. They are all the same and they teach the same

virtues. Dash-macro one. Be kind to your fellow man. You say

Christianity and Islam have the same values. But why did you choose one

over the other? What attracted you to Islam? I would have converted to

Judaism if I had been allowed to. It is a very complicated religion to

convert to. I believe in all these religions. Like Buddhism, it teaches

the same thing. Does what you believe sustain you through

difficult times? Because you have had difficult times in your life.

All the instructions of the holy books teaches you how to go through

life. Men Michael Watson was seriously injured and had a blood

clot in his brain after a fight with you, that was difficult and you have

spoken about that. So does your faith mean forgiving yourself? Yes,

of course. I suffered for a time. How long? Write to the way through

my career. I suppose it was after I retired that I was able to look at

it objectively. And to tell you what I am telling you now. Being a little

older, you can be reflective. I did not mean to be -- to do that. I

should not have beaten myself up as much as I did when it happened. And

did you? Yes, I did. Did you want to leave boxing? I did, but I could

not, it was financial, it was a living. Did you tend to fade when

things were not going well? Bankruptcy, for example, divorce was

another time. Dashed did you turn to faith. You were convicted for a

driving offence where a man died. What happened to you when you go to

those low places, how do you get out of them? What do you turn to? You

turn to the instruction again, which says, let go. Let go. And that is

how I have been able to get through this minefield. And to pass this

onto my sons. Let go, keep your eye on the objective. Never, ever become

subjective about anything. Embrace everything. Christopher has done

just as I have a revised. -- advised. He is going to change of

the -- he is going to change the game of boxing. Did you encourage

him to be a boxer? The way it works is that when you tell your child to

do something, they do the opposite and they want to do the opposite,

and vice versa. I said to him, boxing is not for you, and I kept

him away from the gym which was ten minutes away from the main house. So

every three or four months, he said, I am going to try. No, it not

for you. You would not let him try it? I would not. And I am so glad I

did that. It has made him, it has given him a resolve. You are very

much the English gentleman. And you are quite eccentric. You do not see

yourself as eccentric. I suppose the monocle, which she said was an

affectation. It is fashion. Some people wear hats and other people

were more outrageous things. surly when it comes to the

treasure. What do you mean? The cut. -- formidable adverse surly. The

cut, it gives you an automatic pass. Who do you think you are wearing

those? Great to talk to you. You've been voting on

our question this morning: Is it right to arm the Kurds

in Iraq? The vote is closing now, so please

do not text as your vote will not We'll bring you the result

at the end of the show. The Edinburgh Festival and Fringe

have taken over the Scottish capital, with comedy playing

a big role as usual. As with every year, religion is a

popular theme with many performers. This time

the Royal Mile is plastered with Islamophobia Reloaded by

Scott Capurro, Jesus v Buddha by Aidan Killian, Come Heckle Christ

by Josh Ladgrove, and Paul Savage Some say jokes about religion are

harmless fun, others say it's blasphemous and offensive

and ask is nothing sacred. Reverend George Hargreaves is one of

those - and at our request he went Everyone loves a laugh and I am no

different. Before too long, lazy comedians have been getting away

with blasphemy. And it has got to stop. As irreverent, I have stood

shoulder to shoulder with comedians who fight for the right for free

speech. I'm here in Edinburgh at the biggest comedy Festival of them all.

And I am about to go into the lions den. I'm here to see an atheist

comedian, who will perform his guide to religion. First of all, I want to

thank God for helping me to win this award and for the fans on my back, I

love you all. I love you back. I would not believe what... I enjoy

the show. By really did. Because it was different from what I've thought

it would be. The rat is the medium by communicate in and what ever the

message is, the rat is the medium. There are Christian and Muslim

rappers, and also atheist rappers, but they are less well-known.

Cooperation has a dark side. Religious quarters are just religion

is working. What you hope to achieve with your show? I hope that

religious people will think about faith in a new way and appreciate

the reasons that they have it historically. I hope that

nonreligious people, especially atheists, who have animosity towards

religion and think it is pointless and stupid and wrong, will realise

that people have religion for a reason, and maybe that will promote

a rapport between believers and nonbelievers. Coordinated action,

keeping people from fragmenting... This show, provocative. George is

here, along with Tim Stanley, who joins us. He went in there saying

that comedians were getting away with blasphemy and you were

converted? And would not say converted but that was not a lazy

comedian. He had put a lot of work in and he had something to say that

was interesting. A point of view that I did not agree with but I

leave in free speech and believe that comedy has a place and it is

normally a place of pushing the boundaries to the edge. Is someone

at the edge that says you have gone too far. But he did not. We're his

stop? Would you go and see Come Hackle Christ. I would not buy a

ticket for a show with that title. But is that no point? You go in and

say it is going to be disastrous but actually when you watch it you it is

not so bad. That happens so often, people want to get a rise out of the

audience by having a title that will get their goat. And it is a damp

squib. But I am against those who deliberately try to be offensive and

disrespectful to people's yearly health beliefs, whether it is my

Christian believes or Jewish beliefs. -- Christian beliefs.

Because that is not nice. For us as Christians, you are talking about

our heavenly Father. If I started doing a show about your father, you

would not like it. My father is any theist so he would not certainly...

But if a comedian had a whole show about your father, seeing this that

and the other, you get my point. Is that the point, that up to appoint

it is OK to make jokes about religion but it is offensive, don't

do it? It depends who is offended. Offensive miss is subjective and you

cannot say that you have pushed it to this line and you cannot cross

that line. To call something blasphemy, something you would call

blasphemy I would not call it because your God is not my God. I

would have that viewpoint. But I would also say, in terms of Judaism

and Islam, adding he gets conflicted. Islam and Judaism are

also a culture. You can be a Jewish person and you can also be an

atheist. Sometimes people attack lifestyles and they do not agree

with doing that. At the end of the day, the purpose of comedy is for

people to have a nice time and leave. If I go to a show and they

say, do not say this or that, I will not say it. Why make people have a

horrible time? I think you are well within your rights to see a title

and think, I am not going to go there. I have seen things like

that. Miami feminist and anti-racist and I have seen titles and I

thought, I am not having that. I will not put my self in that. -- I

am a feminist. If you do not like the look of it, do not go. Exactly.

Let's see what had he has got in Edinburgh.

I'm joined by Bubba Brinkman and Scott. Bubba, doing shows about

religion, is that attention seeking? It is controversial and

people write about it. I would say yes but no more show than doing

shows about sex or politics or anything that evokes strong

emotions. Entertainers will naturally gravitate towards those

subjects and they are the game. Scott, you have a show at the

festival this year about religion. Some say that religion is an easy

target, and it does not answer back. How do you counter that criticism? I

do not think is land is an easy target. It has been ignored in

comedy clubs and I am trying to include everyone. If I excluded

religious people, it would seem hostile and racist. I want them to

be included. But it is self-selected, because they will not

come to a show that attacks what they believer. I hope they come and

I want to attack their beliefs, and ideas, but not their feelings. If

they want to chat, we can chat, it is not a seminar. I'm joined by a

bunch of Bradford women who are smashing stereotypes about

religion. Do you think that humour is the right way to break down

stereotypes? Yes. Human can really help because it shows that Muslims

can have a laugh and that. And why do we not see more of that, because

there is humour in your show. There is. The media does not capture that

side of it. It is there, and you get a lot of extremist views in the

media instead of the diverse staff that we are trying to show.

Stereotyped shows about Muslim women boxing

choice based on the comedian. If the joke is on national television, it

might be offensive because it is intruding into people's front rooms.

You talk about Islam will stop Jews enjoy jokes about themselves as a

general principle. Jackie Mason was invited by the Queen to be on the

Royal variety show. Do they enjoy jokes about themselves more than

other faiths? I will not make that judgement. I remember goodness

gracious me when the Indian family went out for an English and made a

joke about bland English food. I've found that really funny as an

English person. But then again, you talk about placards. I saw a few

weeks ago, death to those who slander Islam. When they called a

teddy bear Mohammed, the Muslim community found that offensive. I'm

not saying it is right or wrong but their view should be accepted. Jokes

about religion can break down stereotypes? They can. It is

important to say that one of the things that makes us superior to the

Islamic State is that we allow levity and satire and

self-criticism. That is what makes us so great and why people want to

live here. But discussing taste in comedy, I think there are?

Phenomenon that I have observed. Do not like to name names, but there

are some comedians who are not very good. And so they have segued into

political comedy. It is a way of getting the audience and pathetic

because it thinks that they have to laugh because the point sounds jolly

clever. Some comedians do that. Other comedians like Russell Brand

seem to think that they have turned into gurus are that they have some

position to talk about politics or religion, and that they have evolved

into the Socrates of the generation. You are shaking your

head? But they haven't. I am all for laughter and joking and they do not

mind taking the Mickey out of religion. Miami catholic and Ike

Court Father Ted all the time. I cannot stand when comedians are

elevated to the position of social critic and the argument is

unbeatable because it is funny. -- I quote. Russell Brand has not

changed. He has always been like that but now he is reaching a wider

audience. I'd disagree. I've found a lot of times in comedy you have to

push up are supposed to beating Darren, which is what happens to a

lot of religious comedy. What you mean? The Muslim community, there

are many stereotypes. You have spoken to them about -- you have

spoken about them as if they aren't monolithic. There is comedy in Egypt

and Jordan. It is really hard to speak about Islam, they say, but it

is not hard and people do it every day. What is great is when you see

young ladies like that who are doing a show that actually beats the

stereotype. There was a guy called an era Raman became over, and

Australian Muslim, and he speaks about the stereotypes. That is why

it has been so great with the Jewish community because they have lots of

stereotypes to beat Darren. You mention Jackie Mason, what is

important is that if you are not of it, be careful speaking about it.

I'd think that is important. -- beat Darren. You cannot make jokes about

other people's faith? I would not say that. But there needs to be

sensitivity. There are great Christian comedians, and mentioned a

movie I saw, a hilarious take on the Greek orthodox. But it is done with

sensitivity because faith is a serious matter. Some comedians

breakdown barriers. I have to leave it there. You have been voting in

our text and online vote. The question was, is it right to arm the

Kurds in Iraq to Matt and here is what you told us. 80% of those who

voted said yes it is. 20% said no. Let's have a quick reaction to that.

There is a Kurdish saying, we have no friends except the mountains. I

hope this will be one rare occasion where the West proves that that is

not true. Vacuole for being here this morning. Thanks for watching

and thanks to those who joined us from Edinburgh with Hardeep. We are

back next Sunday, and I hope you can join me. Until then, goodbye.