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Episode 6

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I'm Anita Anand standing in for Naga Munchetty.

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On today's programme: Murder at the altar.

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The world was shocked by the merciless killing in France

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Big bosses took a beating this week with a report

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Former Dragon Hilary Devey is breathing fire about boardroom

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The internet - a forum for free speech or a licence to abuse?

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As more MPs are targeted online, how can we control internet trolls?

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And comedian Francesca Martinez tells Hardeep Singh Kohli

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why she refuses to be defined by disability.

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Apparently when I was a baby, the doctor told my parents that I would

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never lead a normal life. Who wants a normal life? I want an amazing

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life! is back so he can share

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all your thoughts with us. Welcome to Sunday Morning Live. This

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is your show and your chance to get involved. Whatever you are thinking

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or feeling, share it with us. This is how you can get in touch:

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Most Reverand Archbishop Kevin McDonald is the former Archbishop

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of Southwark and director of the Catholic Bishops' Office

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Rabbi Miriam Berger is a rabbi at Finchley Reform Synagogue, London.

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Terry Waite is an author and former envoy to the Archbishop

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of Canterbury who spent nearly five years held hostage

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Hanif Qadir is the CEO and founder of The Active Change Foundation,

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an organisation that works with young people

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Kevin, if I may turn to you first. How on earth does the Catholic

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Church respond to something with such horrific symbolism? Murder on

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an altar. I think the way in which the Catholic Church has reacted is

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very significant. As you say, this was a uniquely horrific event, to

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attack a priest, an elderly priest, actually saying Mass, and the way in

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which he was killed, I think there has been horror throughout the

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world. What has been very interesting has been the way in

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which leaders have responded. The Archbishop of Rouen return from

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Poland and he said the only response is prayer and the search for

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reconciliation. The President of the Bishops' conference of France and

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the Archbishop of Marseille talked about the need to create a

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civilisation of love. In England, very significantly, Cardinal Nichols

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made a statement together with Muslim leaders, in which they

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expressed horror at the event and call for reconciliation. The

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response has not been aggressive, it has not been hostile, adversarial,

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but it has been a call to go to the very roots of what needs to happen

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and what we need to create. We will pick up on many of those threads in

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a moment. This week Pope Francis said

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the world is at war but stressed However, in the aftermath

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of the murder of an 86-year-old Catholic priest, Father Jacques

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Hamel, at the altar of his church places of worship have good reason

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to be apprehensive. While leaders of mosques

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and synagogues are no stranger to security strategies,

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how should churches respond? And what can communities in Britain

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do about the threat of lone figures Is the solution the Government's

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Prevent programme, a counter-terrorism strategy that

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has been criticised for encouraging people to report on individuals

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suspected of having radical views? Or does this do little more

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than cultivate a climate This weekend sees one of the biggest

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gatherings of Muslims in the UK and Tommy Sandhu went

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there to gauge opinion. We are at the Living Islam festival

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in Lincolnshire where about 3000 people are gathering over four days

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for festival fun. You can see that it is mainly a family event but

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there are also discussions being had, and with recent attacks around

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the world, we want to know how it has affected the Muslim community

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here in the UK. When I read the story of what happened to father

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Jacques Hamel, I was horrified. People are using the name of

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something that is supposed to be very peaceful and beautiful, and

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radicalising it in a bad name. I feel that every individual

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represents themselves and so I don't feel like all Muslims are

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responsible for the actions of a fuel. One of the projects introduced

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by the government to counter the threat of terrorism is the Prevent

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scheme. Mr Ek Balz leads it here. It is about stopping people from

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getting involved in or supporting terrorism. It is about all forms of

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violent extremism and terrorism, and it is not about a particular racial

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group or religion. It is so hard to define what radicalisation really is

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because it is so broad. Prevent has had a bit of criticism because of

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that. What do you say to the people who are not fans of what you are

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doing? There is criticism and people ask if it is working and it

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absolutely is. We have examples from grassroots

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projects where people said they were ready to go to Syria and they have

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ripped up their tickets. Are you aware of Prevent? Yes, I am aware of

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it. How good is their job? There is more that can be done but they are

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making a positive effort. That had a negative impact on the Muslims and

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their community in Britain. Prevent is viewed with a degree of

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suspicion. It seems to be focused exclusively on Muslims. What could

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be done to stop radicalisation? Genuinely, I think people should be

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taught more about Islam, and have more events like this. We have got

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to work twice as hard to make sure our communities are together, all

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across Britain, that we work together and build friendships and

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bridges. I have belief and I have bullied because I am here today at

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such a beautiful event that British Muslims can congregate unite to

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spread a message of peace and love. One of the ladies in that clip was

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saying that as Muslims we feel like we have got to work twice as hard.

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Is that the impression you are getting? Yes, it is, and I think she

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is right. We do have to work twice as hard. It is a shame that we have

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to but it is a reality. If we don't try to bring young men and women

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together under a common objective of peace and cohesion, then we can

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allow people to manipulate those young minds. So we have got to work

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twice as hard as anyone else. Terry Waite, the spiritual leaders, the

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Pope, we started talking about him, they are at great pains to say this

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is not a war of religion, these are not religious men. That sense of

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cohesion, that message, is clearly coming from the top. Yes, I don't

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think it is a war of religion as such. I think it has many routes,

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which are complex and difficult to deal with. I think one also needs to

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remember that it isn't only... We hear of this tragic, tragic death in

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France which has appalled all decent people everywhere. We also need to

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remember that there are many hundreds, thousands, of followers of

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the Islamic faith who are suffering dreadfully, who are being held

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hostage virtually, by extremist groups. So it isn't just a war of

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religion, although religious factors enter into it. Some of the disputes

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internally in the region between the various groups in Islam make a

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contribution to this. Sure. The thing is that what goes on far away

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feels like it is removed from people, but these are tax that

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happen in Europe. They feel closer. -- attacks. In synagogues, having

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security at the door has been very real. Tell me what it feels like to

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have that when you go and worship. It is something that the Jewish

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community really takes for granted. A large part of the budget of any

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synagogue or Jewish institution is taken up with security. As somebody

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who went to a Jewish primary school all those years ago with big gates

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and security guards, it has always been part of my life. You get used

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to it? Yes, but it cannot possibly be that the response to hate attacks

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should be that everybody should follow suit and upped their game

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with security. We have got to be able to respond in a way that gets

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to the root of why we need that security, and not think we can

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counter it with more security. But that discussion takes time. If you

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want people to carry on coming to places of worship... Are you

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considering availing yourself of the government part in the Catholic

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Church? Barbed wire and high security fences? Is that sensible?

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The first thing to say is that security has been an issue for

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churches for a long time. Before anybody had heard of Isis. Maths is

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a public event, whether it is a wedding or a funeral. -- Mass. It is

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not a private gathering so there are limits to what you can do. When I

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was a parish priest, we closed the church because somebody broke in and

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attacked the crib figures. I had great regrets about doing that. A

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Catholic Church is a place of prayer. People want to go and pray

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there. It would be tragic if that dimension of Catholic life was

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excluded or limited. And it is also not just about the formal service.

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It is a place of century. You think a church should have its doors open,

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and likewise a mosque. But there are greater incidence of attacks on

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Muslim places of worship. In the Muslim community, are you thinking

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that the way we have done things is not the way we can continue to do

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things? Sad though it is, and shocking and appalling, it is no

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surprise that faith houses and religious institutions have been

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attacked. Throughout Jerusalem we have seen that, in the Middle East,

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Pakistan, Africa. In the UK we have seen attacks on synagogues, churches

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and mosques. It is a shame but that is the reality we are living in.

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Look at the threats posed by extremist groups, and the call for

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arms by Isis scholars. We haven't really got a definition for

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extremism. That seems to be the issue. Terry Waite, what do you

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define as extremism? Is it saying I disagree with foreign policy and I

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am going to fight in Syria? Or I agree with the fighters in Syria? I

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don't like foreign policy. Where is the line? I think sometimes the line

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is drawn to strictly in terms of relationships with people who might

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be called extremists. If you are going to get a solution to these

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problems, at some point there has got to be dialogue and talking. One

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of the real difficulties, if I may say, about the Israeli- Palestinian

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issue, which is a place I have been many times, both to Israel and

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Palestine, is that it is extremely difficult now for the groups to get

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together, because of the climate of hatred on both sides. Dislike on

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both sides. There are not enough minutes on this programme to get

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into the Palestine issue. One thing that you have brought up with Miriam

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and something that you firmly believe in, the preventing strategy.

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Not barbed wire and dealing with the aftermath strategy. Is it fair to

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ask teachers in schools to inform the Home Office if a child is saying

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something deemed to be iffy? I think we have got to get to the bottom of

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where views come from and why children are expressing views,

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because they are unlikely to have made them up themselves. I think

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teachers have an obligation to report... Teachers say all the time

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it is not their job to be policemen. They might not be acting as

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policemen that they are acting in the best interests of the welfare of

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their students and students have got to be given an opportunity to speak

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and express and have their ideas and packed. We saw that from the film

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and you must hear that all the time, that kind of thing rankle deeply

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with the Muslim community, that basically kids are being spied on.

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It is a difficult task and a challenge and I understand where

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Miriam is coming from and I have been working with Prevent since

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2003. Radicalisation and extremism is a process of conversations. If we

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shut down those conversations, it is like Miriam has said. We have got to

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let young people express themselves, in a manner where it does not create

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violence and intolerance of another person or faith. If we don't allow

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the discussion to take place, then we are going to push the problem

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under the carpet and it will resurface. Those conversations will

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be taking place in other areas and environments and it will not be

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shaped bypass or positive people. Let me get the Archbishop's take on

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this. About that extremism video, I don't think they would have seen it

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as an extremist... Really, you think they wouldn't have? In the sense

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that they are not true... Most Muslims would say that Isis are not

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true to Islamic principles, that's the point I'm making. Obviously that

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the background and the origin of it but what they're doing is something

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utterly modern, utterly of our time, and I'm sure they were right in

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saying that in terms of the Druids -- the traditions of Islam, it has

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no place. Right. And yet there is an attraction, there are young people

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going from this country and joining Isis, it is a fact. We got it right?

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Have we got away in which we look out for these things and come down

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on these things, have we got that balance right? Shaking your head.

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First of all, I don't think we should overreact, going back a step.

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One of the tactics being used at the moment is in fact to get a reaction

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from our communities in this country and to begin to eat away, if you

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like, at some of our traditional values, freedom of speech and so on.

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One of the answers to it of course is to improve dialogue, to improve

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understanding, to improve education between people, between the

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different groups of this country. Looking at another situation going

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back to Northern Ireland, in Northern Ireland, people were able

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to shelter in the community because they were not... They were protected

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by the families. Why were you shaking your head? The reason I'm

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shaking my head is that, if you asked me if you years ago how

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Prevent was working, I would say it was working remarkably well. We had

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that connection with local authorities and communities and the

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way we gauged with our communities was working fantastically well. The

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way it's working out is that there's knowing gateman with the police any

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more. There's no community interaction. What was the breaking

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point in that, then? In the last two-year is we've had a rapid

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decline in community engagement by the police and the authorities. The

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police just aren't talking? The way that Prevent is being orchestrated

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now, we were a beacon of hope in terms of preventing radicalisation.

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We've moved well away from that and we're now going in the opposite

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direction, we're going... Because of the measures police are taking now,

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there is no more dialogue, discussion, interaction between

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police and communities and because that we're pushing these further

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away. You've been sending us your texts and tweets on this. Quite

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literally, people are just saying simply condemn murder, web however

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it is committed. Anita. Thank you very much indeed.

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One of those points, that we don't hear enough condemnation from the

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Muslim community... It's interesting, there has been a call

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in France from the Muslim community, saying they must attend Mass today

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and one of those killers has been refused a Muslim burial in France as

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well. Do we just ink that there isn't condemnation from Muslims, or

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is there a serious point that, Archbishop? Well, the thing about

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Islam, it doesn't have the kind of leadership... People might be

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looking for someone like a Pope or even an Archbishop of Canterbury,

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someone who can speak in the name of the religion. There is no parallel

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structure in Islam. There isn't anybody who's position I think

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requires... There is nobody who is invested by the whole of Islam with

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authority to speak on behalf of Islam and that's what people are

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looking for. That isn't there. It's also a fine line that says that by

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expecting the Muslim community to condemn, there is an association

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also being made that the perpetrators want that association

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because it's a propaganda debate as well. That's very interesting. So do

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we do what some countries are advocating, which is staffed the

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oxygen of publicity, don't show their places, don't say their names,

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don't talk about them so publicly, these attackers? Is that the way

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forward? Don't play into the fear that we are clearly being fed, that

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this is a Muslim who has grown up in this European country or this is an

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immigrant who had come in... We are being fed the lies that these are

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people we must fear. Why the Muslim community of those countries

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standing up and say we must condemn, it suggests we are in some way

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connected. I think it's a fine line of expectation as well. Let's just

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go back to you, what is the way forward? If you have heard of the

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not in my name campaign, it reached over 300 million people and every

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single nation on this planet followed that campaign. If Muslim

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communities aren't standing up and condemning this, I don't know who

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is. We don't ask the Christian community when something is done in

:21:31.:21:35.

the name of Christianity, or the Jewish community, to apologise or

:21:36.:21:39.

condemn. It's right that we need to separate the faith from the killing,

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whether it's in the name of a killing or not. There is a lot being

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done by Muslim communities but because we're allowing it to have

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the air, we're giving people an opportunity to say these kind of

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things, which is pushing people onto the back foot and that is an

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uncomfortable position to be in because it does feed the extremist

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narrative. Thank you all very much indeed and thank you for your

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comments. Keep them coming in. Vicky Balch, who lost a leg

:22:07.:22:10.

in an accident at Alton Towers, tells us how she has been targeted

:22:11.:22:14.

by online abuse. The trolls were saying things like I

:22:15.:22:23.

was milking the accident and I need to get over my accident, what

:22:24.:22:27.

happened was awful but I need to get over it now, they are sick of seeing

:22:28.:22:29.

my face. Francesca Francesca Martinez is a comedian,

:22:30.:22:35.

an actress, a writer, a campaigner But Francesca simply describes that

:22:36.:22:38.

as being a bit wobbly. Though she was bullied

:22:39.:22:46.

at school, she refused to be Francesca has written a book about

:22:47.:22:48.

her attitude to life. Hardeep Singh Kohli went to meet

:22:49.:22:55.

Francesca to find out what lies behind her

:22:56.:22:58.

formidable stage presence. Hello! Francesca commit you speak

:22:59.:23:10.

incredibly fondly of your childhood. What made it so if you lick?

:23:11.:23:13.

I was very, very loved. -- what made it so idyllic. Being wobbly was

:23:14.:23:27.

really not an issue to me. I didn't feel disabled or abnormal in anyway.

:23:28.:23:32.

I felt incredibly capable. I had lots of friends. I loved to laugh

:23:33.:23:39.

and be quite cheeky and I loved to have fun. You had a really good sort

:23:40.:23:43.

of younger childhood but rings changed quite dramatically when you

:23:44.:23:48.

went to big school. There is nothing like an all girls high school to

:23:49.:23:53.

bash out all your confidence. I got the biggest shock in the world,

:23:54.:24:02.

which was, "Wow, I live in a culture that views being abnormal and all

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the things that I viewed as being unimportant like how I moved, how I

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balked, how I talked, they suddenly became the defining factor. So I

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quickly lost all my confidence and I adopted their view of me. So I

:24:15.:24:23.

viewed myself as abnormal, as freakish, I thought I didn't have

:24:24.:24:28.

any friends, I thought no one would ever loved me. It was a complete

:24:29.:24:31.

turnaround for me in terms of my self perception. How did you, having

:24:32.:24:38.

had the confidence knocked out of you, how did you come back to where

:24:39.:24:46.

you are? I got a part in Grange Hill when I was 14. You did a brilliant

:24:47.:24:50.

job, there's no need for you to cry... She just... I know.

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It took me out of that negative high school environment for roughly nine

:24:58.:25:04.

months of the year. So it had this huge impact on me. Some of my

:25:05.:25:12.

confidence came back and I made friends. It also gave me a glimmer

:25:13.:25:18.

of hope in that I thought, maybe I could be a performer professionally.

:25:19.:25:23.

I'm getting into my car and this taxi driver pulls up right beside

:25:24.:25:36.

me. He says, don't do it! And I'm like, do what? And he says, don't

:25:37.:25:43.

drink and drive! Getting into stand-up can be daunting for most

:25:44.:25:49.

people. What made you want to do it? Well, I kind of stumbled into it. My

:25:50.:25:54.

dad wrote a script where he made my character a stand-up comedian. I

:25:55.:26:02.

read this script and said that, this is incredible, I could never be a

:26:03.:26:07.

comedian, are you mad? He was like, I think you would be really good. I

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went to a comedy workshop as research, purely research... But

:26:14.:26:20.

then I somehow was persuaded to do a little gig. Even though I was

:26:21.:26:33.

completely terrified, I felt this profound sense of wow, this is

:26:34.:26:36.

amazing, this is what I'm meant to do. I asked a guy what normal was to

:26:37.:26:45.

him, and he said, normal is a cycle on a washing machine!

:26:46.:26:49.

The thing about stand-up is, you can't be fake, like, you've got to

:26:50.:27:03.

be you. The self acceptance was not trying to be fit in and be normal.

:27:04.:27:10.

It was in fact just going, this is me and being honest about who I was

:27:11.:27:15.

and not hiding it and not being ashamed of it. And I really believe

:27:16.:27:20.

that the way to confidence and happiness for all of us is to accent

:27:21.:27:24.

who we are and to appreciate everything we have.

:27:25.:27:30.

What are you doing in this? What, Judith? She said what are you doing

:27:31.:27:44.

in this? Oh, background artist! What was your decision to take the role

:27:45.:27:50.

in Extras. I love that cringes humour and as long as there was my

:27:51.:27:56.

character had comebacks... And what does that entail? What does

:27:57.:28:06.

that entail? Just standing round, really. It's not what I do, I'm a

:28:07.:28:10.

real actor, this is just pocket money. Yeah, but they all say

:28:11.:28:13.

that... It's so lacking in diversity, it

:28:14.:28:24.

shows such a narrow band of humanity. I really appreciated the

:28:25.:28:28.

fact that Ricky wasn't ignoring it and he wanted to actually deal with

:28:29.:28:33.

that head on. You've had a remarkable journey so far in life.

:28:34.:28:36.

What do you hope other people have taken from your example? I think the

:28:37.:28:42.

most valuable thing I ever learnt was to think for myself. To question

:28:43.:28:52.

the accepted norm and attitudes of society. I realised that those

:28:53.:29:01.

battles with insecurity and self-acceptance, they had nothing to

:29:02.:29:05.

do with being wobbly and everything to do with living in this culture.

:29:06.:29:09.

Apparently, when I was a baby, the doctor told my parents that I would

:29:10.:29:18.

never lead a normal life. I was like, who wants a normal life? I

:29:19.:29:20.

want an amazing life! Knowledge is power and once you

:29:21.:29:30.

understand the mechanisms at work, you can liberate yourself. I learned

:29:31.:29:43.

to say I am absolutely find a way I am. Francesca Martinez, there.

:29:44.:29:53.

This week saw the release of a parliamentary report

:29:54.:29:55.

into the collapse of the high street chain BHS.

:29:56.:29:57.

The report, a damning indictment of the former BHS

:29:58.:29:59.

owner Sir Philip Green, heavily criticised his actions

:30:00.:30:01.

in the sale of the high street chain for ?1.

:30:02.:30:04.

The report also outlined how the demise of BHS has left 11,000

:30:05.:30:07.

people facing the loss of their jobs and put the pensions

:30:08.:30:09.

In his parliamentary evidence back in June, Sir Philip said

:30:10.:30:17.

that he wanted to find a solution for the pensioners.

:30:18.:30:20.

The report now says that he has a moral duty to do just that.

:30:21.:30:26.

In the wake of the report, a spokeswoman for the Prime Minister

:30:27.:30:29.

said that she wanted to reform capitalism to make sure it works

:30:30.:30:32.

for everyone, not just the privileged few.

:30:33.:30:35.

But in a challenging economic environment is there such a thing

:30:36.:30:37.

Joining the panel is Dawn Foster, a business economics journalist

:30:38.:30:48.

and author of Lean Out, a book about feminism,

:30:49.:30:50.

Hilary Devey is a businesswoman and former Dragon

:30:51.:30:54.

Mark Littlewood is the director general of the Institute

:30:55.:31:01.

of Economic Affairs, a free market think-tank.

:31:02.:31:08.

Thank you very much. Shall we call it as it is? There is no room for

:31:09.:31:15.

conscience in capitalism. Absolutely not. It makes me almost incandescent

:31:16.:31:23.

with rage to hear that set. Certainly all the businesses I am

:31:24.:31:27.

involved with have a huge corporate social responsibility. Yes,

:31:28.:31:32.

businesses trade for profit, but my goal as CEO of those businesses is

:31:33.:31:38.

to make sure that I retain the employment of all my employees, and

:31:39.:31:43.

to do that, it has got to make a profit. But profits don't

:31:44.:31:49.

necessarily go to the people who work for the business. Not you, you

:31:50.:31:56.

must be lovely to work for! But an unscrupulous boss, with shareholders

:31:57.:31:59.

to answer for, an unforgiving balance sheet, the value of the

:32:00.:32:03.

workers and the customers goes down. I don't think it does go down. As a

:32:04.:32:09.

boss, you have got to balance several things. Sometimes we think

:32:10.:32:12.

chasing a profit is chasing numbers, but to make a profit you have got to

:32:13.:32:17.

keep a lot of people happy. You have got to provide goods and services to

:32:18.:32:20.

your customer at a high enough quality and low enough price

:32:21.:32:43.

that they voluntarily buy it. You have got to retain a workforce who

:32:44.:32:47.

are motivated and productive, and you have got to show a rate of

:32:48.:32:50.

return for the people who have had the guts and courage to invest in

:32:51.:32:53.

you. That is a balancing act. To suggest that is unconscionable

:32:54.:32:55.

activity, that you cannot be a principled person, I think treating

:32:56.:32:57.

your staff and customers well and given your shareholders a good

:32:58.:32:59.

return is a perfectly ethical way to behave, and exactly how most

:33:00.:33:01.

business people do behave. So everything is fine in the kingdom

:33:02.:33:04.

and there is nothing to worry about? I hope so and I wish it were. There

:33:05.:33:07.

has got to be a sense that business bosses these days are the new

:33:08.:33:10.

clergy. Retail is no longer just therapy but the new religion. Plenty

:33:11.:33:12.

of people will have been in shops this weekend, more than mosques and

:33:13.:33:15.

synagogues around the country. I think there has got to be a sense of

:33:16.:33:18.

understanding that those businesses set an agenda and a culture in

:33:19.:33:22.

society, and when business leaders are seen to be avoiding their social

:33:23.:33:27.

principles, and not contributing back to society, that is taken on by

:33:28.:33:33.

the rest of society. Is it really naive, completely naive to say that

:33:34.:33:37.

you want to do the right thing? Should there be a legal stick to

:33:38.:33:41.

make people do the right thing? Do we need more of that? I think so,

:33:42.:33:44.

definitely. Since the 2008 recession we have

:33:45.:33:59.

seen the government pushing for more profits, as though that is the only

:34:00.:34:02.

way to get out of this as though the government cannot do things

:34:03.:34:04.

themselves. Regulations have been pulled away. I have spoken to a lot

:34:05.:34:07.

of women who have been laid off a legally and they cannot take their

:34:08.:34:09.

employers to the tribunal because ?150 tribunal fees have been brought

:34:10.:34:12.

in. We are in an hourglass economy where a lot of people are very poor

:34:13.:34:15.

and very rich and there is the squeezed middle. The people at the

:34:16.:34:21.

top, the workers are valued, but at the bottom, you are expendable. I

:34:22.:34:27.

can feel the heat coming off Hilary! Capitalism does create growth. And

:34:28.:34:33.

it brings people out of poverty. You have just got to look at China. Back

:34:34.:34:41.

in 1980, 80% of people lived in abject poverty. Today it is less

:34:42.:34:47.

than 10%. Why? Because the economy thrived. Capitalism has grown.

:34:48.:34:53.

Therefore it has benefited all. The benefits system picks up the flag of

:34:54.:34:57.

profits in big business, so people are not earning a proper wage, they

:34:58.:35:06.

are doing long days. I don't know which company you have been

:35:07.:35:09.

associated with but the people in my company have a contract to do a set

:35:10.:35:13.

number of hours and they take the necessary breaks and we are governed

:35:14.:35:16.

anyway by the working time directive. Are you paying the London

:35:17.:35:22.

living wage? Rather than analysing Hilary's business, which is

:35:23.:35:26.

interesting, let's look at the one that kick-started the conversation,

:35:27.:35:31.

PHS, and the obligation of somebody that had that company, sold it, and

:35:32.:35:35.

walks away with quite a lot of money in their pockets, and a pension

:35:36.:35:39.

scheme that may not be fulfilled. What are the obligations in that

:35:40.:35:44.

case? I think we have got to be clear here. Talking about legal

:35:45.:35:48.

sticks to hit people with. What legal obligations do we think that's

:35:49.:35:55.

a Philip Green in this case, or any CEO, goes to their staff in terms of

:35:56.:36:02.

pension contributions, and what about the people that they sell the

:36:03.:36:05.

business on to? Rather than bringing in Philip Green for a fight on

:36:06.:36:09.

television, I want policymakers to address those points. It might be

:36:10.:36:13.

wise for a business that starts to fail to say, you know what? We're

:36:14.:36:17.

not going to contribute to the pension fund this month. We need to

:36:18.:36:23.

relaunch or rebrand the company so it doesn't go bust. If you sell on

:36:24.:36:27.

the company, what obligations do you have? If I sell on my flat, I don't

:36:28.:36:34.

have to vouch for the neighbourliness of the people that

:36:35.:36:38.

buy it so why should they? Then need to be clear rules. I can't believe

:36:39.:36:45.

my ears. You are asking for more regulations. I would love them to be

:36:46.:36:51.

clear! We have the longest tax code in the world that nobody can

:36:52.:36:55.

understand. We need less but it has got to be clearer. This spat

:36:56.:36:59.

continues overnight between Frank Field, an MP, who has carpeted

:37:00.:37:05.

Philip Green in public, and Philip Green who has spoken to Mr Leonard

:37:06.:37:12.

friends. You should be in no doubt, any decision relies on a voluntary

:37:13.:37:17.

decision to support the pensions because there is no legal liability

:37:18.:37:22.

to support the schemes. He does not sound like he cares at all about the

:37:23.:37:26.

people sitting at home worried about how they will clear the next payment

:37:27.:37:29.

and which job they will get and how they will provide for their

:37:30.:37:36.

families. To be quite honest, I do feel for those pensioners. I can't

:37:37.:37:43.

speak for Sir Philip Green, and I only know what I would do myself. I

:37:44.:37:47.

would certainly find a way of paying them. There is a problem here. We

:37:48.:37:54.

have a pensions protection fund. This is the equivalent of a travel

:37:55.:37:58.

agency arrangement to make sure you can get home if you are on holiday

:37:59.:38:03.

and your airline goes bust. Has Sir Philip Green and did BHS abide by

:38:04.:38:07.

the terms of that? That is the backstop that you have got. If they

:38:08.:38:13.

didn't, there should be litigation from the pensions regulator to Sir

:38:14.:38:17.

Philip Green. We just need the simple rules of contract to get this

:38:18.:38:22.

sorted. But there is a heartbeat obligation. These people worked for

:38:23.:38:25.

a long time for a shop that he was in charge of and he kind of owes it

:38:26.:38:31.

to them. Are we going to apply that to every businessman? If you are a

:38:32.:38:38.

shop owner employing four people and the shop goes bust, how much do you

:38:39.:38:41.

owe them if it goes bust? OK, but this is not four people. We see this

:38:42.:38:46.

again and again. Sports director announced huge bonuses for all their

:38:47.:38:50.

staff and it turned out they meant staff on particular contract and 90%

:38:51.:38:55.

would be excluded. Time and again we see businessman with no moral duty.

:38:56.:39:02.

It is wrong not to condemn Sir Philip Green. He has plundered BHS

:39:03.:39:07.

and he was not successful. We do love a villain. Before it was the

:39:08.:39:12.

bankers, Fred the shred. Does this man deserves to have his knighthood

:39:13.:39:17.

taken away? It is in the Times today that he is not on the forfeiture

:39:18.:39:21.

list at the moment which is not necessarily definitive but should he

:39:22.:39:25.

be stripped? I think it should be irrelevant. Our concern should be

:39:26.:39:30.

about taking the limelight away from him and putting it on the people

:39:31.:39:34.

whose futures are uncertain at this time. And making sure that actually

:39:35.:39:38.

it is not the state that picks up the slack of somebody who has

:39:39.:39:46.

created a lot of profit and kept it for themselves, but rather that

:39:47.:39:52.

profit is used to support the people whose futures are not certain. You

:39:53.:39:56.

have also got to criticise the trustees of the pension fund. They

:39:57.:40:03.

allowed it to continue. Sir Philip Green approached them saying he

:40:04.:40:07.

would pay a maximum of 10 million a year into the pension fund, and they

:40:08.:40:12.

accept that. We will leave it there and we will watch with interest what

:40:13.:40:16.

happens to Philip Green and Frank Field. That is a saga that rolls on

:40:17.:40:20.

and on. You have been sending in your texts and tweets on this. A lot

:40:21.:40:25.

of people saying that the principles can mix but greed is behind a lot of

:40:26.:40:30.

what businesses do. Harry agrees with Hilary: That is not quite what

:40:31.:40:36.

Hilary said, but along those lines of developing people and lifestyles.

:40:37.:40:37.

Helen says: That is all we have. Thank you very

:40:38.:41:14.

much. That word greed has come up again and again. Just resign

:41:15.:41:19.

yourself to it. Greed may not be good, but greed is what drives the

:41:20.:41:25.

economy. Right, and I think there is a strong impulse that drives us to

:41:26.:41:29.

be able to be successful, and I think there is a difference between

:41:30.:41:33.

being successful and having that inspiration, and doing it to the

:41:34.:41:39.

detriment of others. If you come up with a great idea about how to

:41:40.:41:42.

provide goods and services to millions of people who will buy it

:41:43.:41:45.

and make you millions of pounds, most often these other spinners that

:41:46.:41:49.

have come up with a grand idea, they are not sitting at home with a blank

:41:50.:41:52.

sheet of paper thinking they are greedy and how they can be rich.

:41:53.:41:56.

They are thinking about products and services that they can provide that

:41:57.:42:03.

people will choose to buy and they get rid as a consequence. Consumers

:42:04.:42:08.

today demand ethics. If a company doesn't practice ethical behaviour,

:42:09.:42:11.

you will find very soon you run out of customers. The business pages

:42:12.:42:17.

bleed onto the front pages all the time. Talk of austerity and moral

:42:18.:42:22.

decline as we see in the newspapers today. If this was Dragons' Den and

:42:23.:42:26.

I was Britain and I said to you, Hilary, look at the stake of me, in

:42:27.:42:35.

or out? What would the answer be? I am in! Took you long enough! Thank

:42:36.:42:42.

you very much indeed and thank you for your comments and keep them

:42:43.:42:44.

coming. An internet troll admitted in court

:42:45.:42:47.

this week to sending online death threats and anti-Semitic abuse

:42:48.:42:50.

to Liverpool MP Luciana Berger. Separately, Birmingham MP

:42:51.:42:52.

Jess Phillips has also been forced to overhaul personal security over

:42:53.:42:54.

safety fears after receiving Most people would utterly condemn

:42:55.:42:57.

such abuse but how do you draw the line between such repellent

:42:58.:43:05.

vitriol and fierce Vicky Balch, who had a leg

:43:06.:43:06.

amputation after a roller coaster crash at Alton Towers, has been

:43:07.:43:13.

a victim of online trolling. They keep alt tab part of her leg

:43:14.:43:27.

amputated after a roller-coaster crash at Alton Towers amusement park

:43:28.:43:32.

last year. Coming to terms with that at the age of 21 has not been easy.

:43:33.:43:40.

Having a disability is very new to me. I was very confident beforehand

:43:41.:43:45.

and I just got on with my life and there was nothing to hold me back or

:43:46.:43:51.

to stop me so it is very hard to come to terms with it. Somebody

:43:52.:43:56.

close to Vicky came up with an idea to boost her self-confidence. She

:43:57.:44:00.

had some glamour shots taken by a photographer. I got the glamour

:44:01.:44:03.

shots as a present from my best friend Hannah. She decided it would

:44:04.:44:07.

be a good way to get my confidence back up. When the accident happened

:44:08.:44:12.

I just lost all my confidence. Seeing myself for the first time at

:44:13.:44:18.

the viewing, I was in tears, just so surprised and amazed at how good

:44:19.:44:22.

they looked. I never thought I could look like that again. A national

:44:23.:44:26.

newspaper heard about the photo shoot and ran a story. It was then

:44:27.:44:31.

that is patrolling on the internet began. That rolls were saying things

:44:32.:44:36.

like I was milking the accident and I needed to get over it. What

:44:37.:44:41.

happened was awful but I needed to get over it because they are sick of

:44:42.:44:48.

seeing my face. Being trolled is not easy. It is not nice. It is people

:44:49.:44:53.

you don't know saying horrible and hurtful things to you and about you.

:44:54.:44:57.

If it was said to the wrong person, it could really do damage. Vicky has

:44:58.:45:02.

tried to find ways of blocking the abusive messages but without much

:45:03.:45:03.

success. I've blocked and reported messages

:45:04.:45:12.

that I've got, but obviously you can't do that to everyone and you

:45:13.:45:16.

just get more. You can keep doing that and you can keep not listening

:45:17.:45:20.

to them at I don't think there will ever be a way to stop it. And Vicki

:45:21.:45:24.

joins us now. is Ella Whelan, the assistant

:45:25.:45:28.

editor of Spiked magazine. Our final question this week -

:45:29.:45:31.

how can we tackle trolls? Were you surprised when you got the

:45:32.:45:42.

amount of trolling that you got? Yes, but I thought I would get some

:45:43.:45:48.

negative comments. While would you think that? That makes me sad, that

:45:49.:45:53.

you would have do think that. There's always going to be at least

:45:54.:45:57.

one person. But we're talking about something very different here when

:45:58.:46:01.

we talk about trolling, aren't we? Completely. I'm a journalist, public

:46:02.:46:08.

figure, so I get a lot of abuse and whatever, but also when I first

:46:09.:46:12.

started in journalism one of my first jobs was moderating online

:46:13.:46:18.

comments and it is mind-boggling how much vitriol there is out there.

:46:19.:46:23.

Some of it is attention seeking but a lot of it is opinions that have

:46:24.:46:31.

always been there about women or homophobic attitudes, but... A lot

:46:32.:46:41.

of the advice is just get a thicker skin, it's always going to happen. I

:46:42.:46:46.

think that's good advice. I think the idea that we're awash with

:46:47.:46:49.

horrible people in the world is not really true. I think Twitter is a

:46:50.:46:56.

home for the kind of bedroom weirdos who get a kick out of doing such

:46:57.:47:04.

things. Does Vicky have two gird herself for it, why should she have

:47:05.:47:09.

do? I think we would all agree it's gross and to know someone who would

:47:10.:47:13.

write such verbal things is terrible and we can condemn that, but the

:47:14.:47:16.

response to it should always be... You wouldn't expect someone, it's

:47:17.:47:24.

not acceptable to stand in a Market Square and yell abuse at someone,

:47:25.:47:30.

why should it be OK if you got an egg next to you, on Twitter? I think

:47:31.:47:39.

it is freedom of speech but the other side of it is that if we are

:47:40.:47:42.

accepting as women that we should be protected from certain types of

:47:43.:47:51.

comments... It is a coincidence we have an all oestrogen driven panel

:47:52.:47:56.

on. I read a statistic that almost 50% of the trolls out there are in

:47:57.:48:02.

fact women. Have you experienced trolling? Yes I have, and quite

:48:03.:48:08.

recently when I was campaigning for during the Brexit campaign and I was

:48:09.:48:18.

campaigning for Remain, stronger in, champion of small businesses. I

:48:19.:48:20.

experienced quite a lot of harassment. Do you take a leaf from

:48:21.:48:28.

Emma's book, just man up and take it? I took the view that if you put

:48:29.:48:32.

your head above the parapet, someone is going to take a pot shot at you

:48:33.:48:37.

so you just accept it and move on. And yet, time after time, we have

:48:38.:48:40.

heard from women in the public eye who say you know what, I did not

:48:41.:48:45.

sign up for this. I signed up to be a speaker and a teacher, an

:48:46.:48:49.

actress... And actress recently from Ghostbusters, I didn't sign up for

:48:50.:48:54.

this. Completely. I think there's a legit difference between online

:48:55.:48:57.

criticism, if someone says I don't like your article and here's why...

:48:58.:49:02.

I welcome that. But what I am against is what happens time and

:49:03.:49:07.

again when people send rape threats, death threats, it has happened to

:49:08.:49:14.

me. People post my address online. I think there's a difference between

:49:15.:49:21.

someone making serious threats on your life and making Syria's

:49:22.:49:25.

attempts and that by having a sustained kind of messaging and

:49:26.:49:28.

stalker -ish kind of behaviour which is far different from just the odd

:49:29.:49:34.

tweet. The thing that really shocked me was Jess Phillips, the MP, who

:49:35.:49:37.

really loves talking about this kind of thing, I wonder whether she does

:49:38.:49:43.

work in politics, she's always on Twitter! She got several tweets and

:49:44.:49:48.

she changed her locks. I think she was advised to change them. Let's be

:49:49.:49:53.

clear, for those who don't know this story, Jess Phillips, the MP for

:49:54.:49:59.

Birmingham, got dead bodies, corpses with her face on posted. There's a

:50:00.:50:06.

difference between saying it's OK, you can condemn it publicly, that we

:50:07.:50:10.

have to think of the other side, what is the alternative to say that

:50:11.:50:13.

women should be protected from this kind of stuff? That is saying that

:50:14.:50:19.

we are more thin-skinned than men. It's not just females though, is it?

:50:20.:50:23.

Everyone should be protected from that kind of thing. But who does the

:50:24.:50:29.

protection? Let's just turn to Vicky, who has gone through this.

:50:30.:50:33.

Did you feel like you needed protecting, that Amonde should have

:50:34.:50:37.

been the thing out for you? I felt like I needed support more than

:50:38.:50:41.

anything, but it can get much worse than what I have been through. I

:50:42.:50:48.

think there should be some sort of legislation there. When does it get

:50:49.:50:54.

into harassment. You strike me as being a pretty tough cookie, if you

:50:55.:50:57.

don't mind me saying. But this wouldn't just affect you, your mum,

:50:58.:51:03.

who I've met, is a fiercely protective woman and it must have

:51:04.:51:07.

had an effect on her as well. Anyone involved in my life when you read

:51:08.:51:10.

something like that, even the supporters I've never met and have

:51:11.:51:16.

had amazing messages from, they get through it. You do have quite a

:51:17.:51:22.

total media profile. Did it not ever make you think you know what, I'm

:51:23.:51:28.

done with this, I don't want to have Instagram, snap chat, Twitter, I'm

:51:29.:51:32.

out of here? For me it didn't because of the amounts of supportive

:51:33.:51:36.

messages I get and the amount I've inspired, I wouldn't be able to

:51:37.:51:39.

speak to them and give them advice and help them and that is the only

:51:40.:51:45.

reason I am on social media. There is this idea that there is a greater

:51:46.:51:50.

good, these are the ugly sides of something that is democratising,

:51:51.:51:52.

that allows people to get help from their role models, that you would

:51:53.:51:56.

lose all of that if you start policing... I think it's on a

:51:57.:52:01.

spectrum. I think Twitter has been absolutely wonderful, it's helped

:52:02.:52:04.

lots of people I know get jobs etc. But there is a spectrum and we're

:52:05.:52:09.

not saying that nobody should be subject to any kind of contact. But

:52:10.:52:13.

at the end of the spectrum, the threatening hate speech, that needs

:52:14.:52:19.

to be dealt with. Facebook could deal with it a lot quicker. Asking

:52:20.:52:26.

an excellent question, who do you want to police it? Who is the

:52:27.:52:29.

arbiter of what is acceptable and what is not? I think I would like

:52:30.:52:35.

Twitter and Facebook to be more responsive to harassment, racism,

:52:36.:52:38.

rape threats and that sort of thing. The number of times me or my friends

:52:39.:52:43.

have been threatened with rape on Twitter and then told there was

:52:44.:52:47.

nothing offensive about those messages. We've had lots of messages

:52:48.:52:52.

saying that trolls will always exist and we can't ignore them, but others

:52:53.:52:57.

feel there should be tough laws in place to deal with them.

:52:58.:53:23.

All of our messages have been lovely, trolls do not watch Sunday

:53:24.:53:32.

Morning Live! I'm not even slightly surprised, it is a troll free zone!

:53:33.:53:39.

Vicky struck me as a tough cookie, I can say that in buckets for you. Do

:53:40.:53:44.

those comments even sometimes pierce your armour? Yes. How do you deal

:53:45.:53:51.

with it? I don't deal with it, that's the thing, I just ignore it.

:53:52.:53:54.

I treat them with the contempt they deserve. I do agree with a tweed

:53:55.:53:59.

you've just had in that they are attention seeking and therefore to

:54:00.:54:05.

respond would be to capitulate to their wishes, really. I did want to

:54:06.:54:11.

come back to you. If somebody is feeling threatened, should they call

:54:12.:54:16.

the police or not? It's up to that person whether or not they call the

:54:17.:54:21.

police but you can make the decision and take a call on that because

:54:22.:54:27.

there could be cases where it is something serious. Should the police

:54:28.:54:31.

take action? I reject the idea that the police should be involved in

:54:32.:54:36.

policing speech. Freedom of speech is a fundamental belief that we

:54:37.:54:39.

should believe in and protect but the consequence of saying there is

:54:40.:54:42.

some speed that is acceptable and some speech that isn't, that means

:54:43.:54:46.

you give an inch and a mile is taken. The grounds for what is

:54:47.:54:51.

considered offensive on Twitter and Facebook at the moment is swelling.

:54:52.:54:54.

If you're a political figure and someone who is speaking in the

:54:55.:54:59.

public realm, anything can be classified as offensive and that's

:55:00.:55:02.

terrible. Things are... After a terrible tragedy like this, you have

:55:03.:55:07.

a huge constituency, don't you, because of social media? Yeah,

:55:08.:55:13.

definitely. Everyone uses it now. It's rare to find someone that

:55:14.:55:16.

doesn't use it. It's an interesting situation. I wonder whether anything

:55:17.:55:23.

can be changed. We talk about changing things, but when you've got

:55:24.:55:27.

such a wild West out there, you can talk about policing it but it may

:55:28.:55:31.

not be possible. I think it can be changed. I think the culture is

:55:32.:55:34.

changing. I think more and more people are accepting that the

:55:35.:55:42.

culture -- that this is wrong. Thank you to my guests and you at home for

:55:43.:55:48.

your contributions. Naga Munchetty will be back on this chair next

:55:49.:55:49.

week. But before we leave,

:55:50.:55:52.

singer Carly Paoli from Nottinghamshire treats us

:55:53.:55:54.

to a special version of the classic Ave Maria, which has been chosen

:55:55.:55:57.

as the official song # His word is still as wonderful

:55:58.:56:14.

# As it was when we were younger # Is nothing sacred any more

:56:15.:56:28.

# Then what are we fighting for? # Have the dreamers stopped

:56:29.:56:31.

dreaming? # And then I pray

:56:32.:57:04.

# Ave Maria # Ave Maria

:57:05.:57:38.

# And if she's asking for our help # Then how can we turn away?

:57:39.:57:48.

# We have to pray # Ave Maria

:57:49.:57:55.

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