19/09/2014 BBC Wales Today


19/09/2014

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Welcome to a special edition of Wales Today.

:00:09.:00:10.

As Scotland rejects independence - a promise of more powers for Wales

:00:11.:00:13.

The First Minister says, Wales' underfunding must be addressed - and

:00:14.:00:16.

it's time for all the home nations to get around the negotiating table.

:00:17.:00:26.

The all union is dead. We need to forge a new union. It is time to sit

:00:27.:00:36.

together as for nations and work this through.

:00:37.:00:40.

From Lloyd George to Nye Bevan to Neil Kinnock,

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Wales has given Westminster some of Britain's biggest political hitters,

:00:43.:00:44.

All the main political parties are here.

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With change inevitable now for Wales do you want more devolution?

:00:49.:01:07.

On the day that Scotland voted No, what next for the future

:01:08.:01:11.

And, more importantly, how does it affect us here in Wales?

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The First Minister Carwyn Jones has described the union as we know it

:01:17.:01:19.

The Prime Minister says he wants Wales at the centre of negotiations.

:01:20.:01:24.

One thing's for sure - there's a change on the way for us.

:01:25.:01:35.

An emotional end to more than two years of campaigning. And a more

:01:36.:01:50.

decisive result for the No camp than was predicted. But the Prime

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Minister had no time to relax. A new and fair settlement for Scotland

:01:59.:02:03.

should be accompanied by a fair settlement for all parts of the

:02:04.:02:07.

United Kingdom. There are proposals in Wales to give the assembly more

:02:08.:02:21.

powers. Carwyn Jones wanted talk about constitutional reform before

:02:22.:02:25.

the referendum in Scotland but his pleas fell on deaf ears. Today they

:02:26.:02:33.

demanded a place at the table. Wales cannot and will not play second

:02:34.:02:40.

fiddle. The people of Wales regardless of where they were born

:02:41.:02:48.

are part of our nation. They deserve an equal voice. You have been

:02:49.:02:54.

talking about a constitutional convention. I want to see the wheels

:02:55.:03:03.

Bill considered. I want a rethink of income tax proposals. -- the Wales

:03:04.:03:11.

Bill considered. I recognise this cannot be done on a bilateral basis.

:03:12.:03:16.

We have to talk to each other. Extra power for the assembly already in

:03:17.:03:22.

the pipeline. The Welsh Government will be in charge of stamp duty. It

:03:23.:03:31.

would also have limited powers on income taxes people consent to it in

:03:32.:03:35.

a referendum. It is currently going through the House of Lords where it

:03:36.:03:38.

will be examined line by line next month. A report by the Silk

:03:39.:03:46.

Commission suggests energy policy and policing should also be

:03:47.:03:50.

devolved. It's the really a change for a Welsh MPs also? The Prime

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Minister has suggested they will be stopped from voting on things that

:03:55.:04:05.

only affect England. There is a lot that we agree on in

:04:06.:04:10.

terms of how we make sure that the voice of Wales is heard. Also that

:04:11.:04:18.

there are other ideas regarding a constitutional convention. There has

:04:19.:04:25.

to be a lot more discussion in the days and weeks ahead. But for those

:04:26.:04:31.

who oppose devolution there is a word of caution. We used to think

:04:32.:04:35.

what is best for us, not just what is best for Scotland. We need to

:04:36.:04:40.

think of our situation. Can we afford things such as devolution of

:04:41.:04:45.

welfare? Can we afford a separate criminal justice system? Before

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Scotland had even delivered its verdict Carwyn Jones degree the all

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the union dead. And Westminster tonight there is a lot of attention

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on England. Politicians from all parties say they are determined to

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make sure the voice of Wales is not thrown about.

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Owen Smith is the Shadow Secretary of State for Wales.

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Leanne Wood is the leader of Plaid Cymru.

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Alun Cairns is the Conservative Wales Office Minister.

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And Kirsty Williams is Leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats.

:05:14.:05:20.

The focus of your leader will be on wheels and Scotland. The Prime

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Minister said he wanted Wales jury at the heart of the discussion. Bat

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Wales and Scotland. How much more plane could he make

:05:43.:05:48.

it? In the statement Wales was centre stage. We are not clear what

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Welsh Labour wants. I was at a press conference this morning. Labour does

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need to speak with one focused boys. I am very clear. You might be. --

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speak with one focused voice. The other important contribution to date

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was from Ed Miliband. We will start a national debate, it'd be led by

:06:25.:06:31.

the Labour Party. It will be led by the people, not by Westminster.

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Labour is going to see the people offer their views about devolution.

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One thing we must take from Scotland is not just that people voted to

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stick together, they also wanted to change. People who voted Yes and No.

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They are reflecting a desire for change both in Scotland and in the

:07:01.:07:04.

rest of the country. It is constitutional change and Labour

:07:05.:07:10.

will deliver that. We have had a lack of detail from both the Labour

:07:11.:07:14.

Party and the Conservatives in terms of what this means. There is a lack

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of clarity as well in terms of the question of England. If for example

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English MPs could only vote on English matters where does that

:07:26.:07:31.

place Wales with regard to funding of the health service? Decisions

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taken in England on spending on English public services have an

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impact on Wales because we would get a corresponding cut to our

:07:42.:07:43.

allocations under the Barnett Formula. We will come on to that

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shortly. The fascinating thing about the last few hours as the

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politicians have amongst themselves topped but what they want. The great

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Welsh public not been consulted. We will have more devolution anyway,

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want to be? I would love to see as replicate the kind of debate that

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has taken place in Scotland. I spent time in Scotland and the campaign

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there was amazing. The level of engagement and information was

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amazing. I have never experienced anything like that in politics

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before. If we could have a similar conversation and Wales and really

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fired the imagination of our citizens then weekly to create

:08:30.:08:33.

something very special. You have all been campaigning there. You all know

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having worked in Wales for years that we are light years away from

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that kind of energy. The BBC did a Paul recently. 34% of people felt

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devolution had led to an improvement. 46% said it had not

:08:54.:08:59.

made much difference. -- the BBC did an opinion survey recently.

:09:00.:09:06.

There is a difference between accepting the principle of decision

:09:07.:09:11.

making being brought closer to the people and lack of satisfaction with

:09:12.:09:14.

the type of politicians within the institution. What is clear to me is

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that we can either hunker down and pretend that this is not happening

:09:21.:09:25.

and we will be either ignored or swept along with events. It is now

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time to dry and develop a consensus in Wales is that we can speak as

:09:30.:09:36.

much as possible with one voice. That is the best way. We have a good

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basis with the Silk Commission. We are involved in that Commission. It

:09:46.:09:50.

has consulted widely across wheels. That is the basis to take the

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conversation forward. -- widely across Wales. We could also amend

:09:57.:10:11.

the wheels Bill. -- amend the Wales Bill. We had this commitment at the

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late stages of the campaign from the three No campaigners. That has

:10:26.:10:35.

already fallen apart. What we saw in Scotland was a desire for change. It

:10:36.:10:41.

is replicated in England and in Wales. It is not just change in the

:10:42.:10:47.

Constitution, it is more profound. People are really needed from

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politics at all levels. We can use this energy and dry to construct a

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greater belief in politics. Let me bring you in. How committed are the

:11:05.:11:08.

Conservatives to change you? This review is about responding to the

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demands both in Scotland and across the rest of the United Kingdom.

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These are big decisions. We have had review after review, commissioned

:11:21.:11:24.

after Commission. This Prime Minister is not going to avoid these

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big decisions. He is prepared to bring forward strategist and in

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before the next general election so people can have their say on that. I

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am concerned about the attitude the Labour Party is showing already

:11:42.:11:49.

after the potential risk of an independent vote in Scotland. They

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are attending to take this into the long grass. What we saw this morning

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was the Prime Minister of this country recording in a narrow and

:12:00.:12:05.

partisan way. This is about building a consensus. He wanted to buy of

:12:06.:12:10.

backbenchers. Labour is not doing that. We shall move on now.

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The Prime Minister has also promised change for Westminster.

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One suggestion is that only English MPs vote

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So Welsh MPs - like Owen and Alun - wouldn't be given a say

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on things like schools and hospitals in England,

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So where would that leave the 40 Welsh MPs we currently send

:12:30.:12:37.

A rich history. David Lloyd George the Chancellor who gave as pensions

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and the wartime Prime Minister. Neil Kinnock led Labour in two

:12:51.:12:56.

elections. But I the days of their Welsh at Westminster numbered? A

:12:57.:13:05.

draft law to give Scotland more powers over tax and welfare will be

:13:06.:13:10.

published in January. Voters should then be able to see what will be on

:13:11.:13:15.

offer in the general election. If Labour win that election Ed Miliband

:13:16.:13:18.

is promising a constitutional convention to look at change across

:13:19.:13:23.

the UK. At the same time David Cameron says MPs from Wales and

:13:24.:13:26.

Scotland should be stopped from voting on English issues. Labour

:13:27.:13:31.

says that as a trap to stop them ruling from Westminster. He says the

:13:32.:13:39.

English want this for the English. I wish he would start being the Prime

:13:40.:13:45.

Minister of the United Kingdom and not the Prime Minister of England

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and the Tory backbenchers. Every time they spent 300 million extra in

:13:55.:13:59.

England some of that money has to come to Wales. Do they want to

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exclude us from making financial decisions for Wales? This is where

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the media comes to dry to make sense of what is happening in Britain's

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politics. MPs here are increasingly asking the English question. Bernard

:14:18.:14:26.

Jenkins cheers public administration committee at Westminster. He wants

:14:27.:14:31.

English devolution. What is good for Scotland and Wales is good for

:14:32.:14:34.

England. We do not want a new building. We would like to meet as

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English MPs, or English and Welsh MPs in some cases, to decide the

:14:43.:14:47.

English are English and Welsh legislation. Last night's fort was

:14:48.:14:51.

decisive enough that the Yes campaign did happen to have been --

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last night's result was decisive enough but the Yes campaign hat into

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feelings. Disaffection, introspection. It is 35 years since

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a Welsh MP, Jim Callaghan, was Prime Minister. If David Cameron gets the

:15:17.:15:22.

answer he wants to this question he may be the last of his kind.

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What do you think the future is for a Welsh MPs? The detail of it will

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be sorted out in the draft legislation that comes foreign

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before the next general election. There is a big difference between

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Scotland and Wales. -- legislation that comes foreign words before the

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next general election. The way that people travel across-the-board so

:15:56.:15:58.

readily to work in terms of services. There is not that large

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geographical area where there are relatively few people living between

:16:06.:16:11.

the urban conurbations. The difference between Welsh MPs and

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Scottish MPs is very different. This is what William Hague will be

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reviewing. The point is that you are representing a Welsh constituency.

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You will not be allowed to fall on English matters. You will not be

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allowed to vote on Welsh matters because that is being done in

:16:31.:16:35.

Cardiff B. That is what they are proposing. They are effectively

:16:36.:16:42.

saying they will reward the Scottish people for voting to stay within the

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UK by saying that they will have a diminished voice in the centre of

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the UK at Westminster. It is a narrow partisan self serving and I'm

:16:55.:17:06.

spent. -- self serving announcement. This is only about UKIP and the Tory

:17:07.:17:12.

backbenchers. It is an incredibly partisan position for the Prime

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Minister, ostensibly of the UK, to take. He should be cold out on it.

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It is no way to solve the much bigger questions we should be

:17:22.:17:32.

talking about. Some of the major economic decisions are taken at

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Westminster and those decisions reflect upon the entire United

:17:35.:17:40.

Kingdom. As well as standing at the wheels. We are a family of nations.

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The model for Scotland is not necessarily the correct model for

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Wales. We do not need to be hamstrung by the model that'll fit

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Scotland. That is the detail that must be worked through. Let us

:17:58.:18:01.

accept the principle of the West Lothian question and see how we can

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develop it you may remember the years and years that Plaid Cymru

:18:07.:18:10.

tries to get into the House of Commons. We remember the story. Are

:18:11.:18:17.

you seeing that their House of Commons will become a relevance to

:18:18.:18:21.

your party? It could in the long term. But what we need is the

:18:22.:18:27.

settlement that we need. There is a consensus that we do not have the

:18:28.:18:32.

powers that we need in Wales. What is concerning me tonight is

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listening to these to see who last week work Better Together, offering

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all kinds of promises to Scotland on a joint ticket, and now they are

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using this argument. The constitutional timetable is

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fascinating. Look at what is proposed. The big elephant in the

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room as there is a general election just around the corner. You will

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also put up. It is a very challenging timetable. We consider

:19:12.:19:14.

that some of these issues have never been sorted out for decades. That

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puts it into perspective. There is a political will can be achieved, but

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if we see more of what we have witnessed tonight there is no hope

:19:25.:19:28.

of sorting it out. When it comes to the position of Welsh MPs we must

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have clarity over responsibilities. In the last couple of years to

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pieces of legislation have been passed and ended up in the courts

:19:39.:19:42.

because there was disagreement about where power lies. You cannot beat

:19:43.:19:46.

decisions about where Welsh MPs can and cannot hold until that is

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clarity about where power lies. You choose to a fair those pieces of

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legislation. We have already agreed that the clear solution to those is

:19:57.:20:03.

that you should shift of the model of powers solicitors like that for

:20:04.:20:06.

Scotland. That is a Labour commitment. But there are bigger

:20:07.:20:13.

issues that must be addressed. It is not just about the Constitution or

:20:14.:20:16.

the edges of power between Wales and Westminster. Having heard the

:20:17.:20:27.

promise that you need to Scotland recently, and now you are coming up

:20:28.:20:37.

with the constitutional arrangement. You are going back on the

:20:38.:20:43.

commitment. It is about responding positively to the vault in Scotland.

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Westminster parties have two on what they have promised the people of

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Scotland. In doing so they cannot ignore what we need in Wales. The

:20:57.:21:03.

powers, accountability and resource issues cannot be ignored. I am

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concerned that unless we work together and recognise this

:21:08.:21:11.

deep-seated feeling of dissatisfaction with how politics

:21:12.:21:15.

works, with high Wales has been cheated, and come up with a clear

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and positive version of what a new union will look like, we will end up

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going through the trauma in the seemly that the Scots did is because

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we will hand the initiative to those who want to separate us. There is a

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moral obligation to work together to sort this out. If we do not we will

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be letting down the people of Wales and the UK.

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Turnout at this referendum was extraordinary.

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To give you some context, voter turnout in Assembly Elections

:21:44.:21:47.

Just 35% of us voted in the 2011 referendum here

:21:48.:21:51.

So how can Wales' politics fire up this kind of engagement?

:21:52.:22:00.

Roger Pinney has spent the day in Ruthin as the referendum vote and

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With its Church spire just visible this ancient market town has seen

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some history. Now its people are living through a new upheaval. Those

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who went to bed last night woke up this morning not knowing what to

:22:30.:22:33.

expect. There is the sense that Scotland has made its decision, but

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people realise this is not the end of it. The way the UK works is

:22:38.:22:42.

changing. This is a place where town and country meet. At the livestock

:22:43.:22:47.

markets there was more to talk about than the price of land. But what of

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the impact of the vote on Wales and the promise that Scotland's gets

:22:58.:23:01.

more powers? We should have a few more powers. It is tricky. We have

:23:02.:23:12.

got a voice here in Wales. It is a new chapter in everybody's book. A

:23:13.:23:17.

page in her study turned. Compare the massive turnout in yesterday's

:23:18.:23:25.

Scottish referendum to the referendum in Wales three years ago.

:23:26.:23:31.

Only just over one third went to the ballot box. In Scotland the vote was

:23:32.:23:36.

given for the first time to 16 and 17-year-olds. I have seen that

:23:37.:23:45.

people have engaged in conversation. They have started a

:23:46.:23:54.

huge debate. The problem facing politicians know is how to engage

:23:55.:23:58.

young people. Otherwise you could have an entire generation that will

:23:59.:24:04.

not vote. The referendum was fundamental. Yes or No on

:24:05.:24:11.

independence. The future suggests major changes in the way that

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Britain is governed. Our Welsh Affairs Editor Vaughan

:24:13.:24:15.

Roderick is in Cardiff Bay. Perhaps the most extraordinary thing

:24:16.:24:17.

about Scotland's referendum was the way people engaged

:24:18.:24:19.

in the debate across the country. A big decision clearly invigorated

:24:20.:24:22.

the public. Many of the people who were engaged

:24:23.:24:37.

in those meetings were on the Yes side, but the people who turned out

:24:38.:24:41.

in huge numbers turned out to vote No. There is a suggestion that those

:24:42.:24:47.

people intended to vote No all along. If you are opposed to

:24:48.:24:51.

independence you knew you only have one shot. If it was Yes the United

:24:52.:24:56.

Kingdom is coming to an end. He would be living in an independent

:24:57.:25:00.

Scotland. People in the Yes side had a different perception. They thought

:25:01.:25:05.

even if the referendum is lost the question may be asked again sometime

:25:06.:25:10.

in the future. Part of the motivation was not just these

:25:11.:25:14.

campaigns going out and engaging with the public. Part of the

:25:15.:25:19.

motivation was people genuinely concerned about losing the country

:25:20.:25:24.

they currently live in. Replicating that in an election or a referendum

:25:25.:25:28.

with a fireplace clear question is difficult to do. A journalist in

:25:29.:25:36.

Edinburgh that yesterday suggested to me that what he would take away

:25:37.:25:43.

from this entire referendum story was two fingers to the critical

:25:44.:25:49.

classes. Do you agree? What will be on the minds of all politicians and

:25:50.:25:53.

particularly Labour and Conservative as there is a situation where

:25:54.:25:57.

turnout have been chopping consistently in the UK, and the

:25:58.:26:03.

percentage of people who do vote, thought for Labour or Conservative

:26:04.:26:07.

and that has been chopping. The old Jew pulley is under threat. How do

:26:08.:26:24.

they engage with people -- the old duopoly is under threat. There are

:26:25.:26:31.

parties such as the Liberal Democrats who have problems of their

:26:32.:26:32.

own as well. Not surprisingly one story

:26:33.:26:36.

dominates most of the front pages. The Independent describes it as

:26:37.:26:40.

The Disunited Kingdom with David Cameron, Ed Miliband and

:26:41.:26:42.

Alex Salmond on the front. The Daily Mail takes

:26:43.:26:44.

a different view. They're getting excited

:26:45.:26:46.

about ?Home Rule for England? with the Prime Minister's pledge

:26:47.:26:48.

of English votes for English laws. Closer to home the Western Mail

:26:49.:26:52.

simply asks, with concerns mounting that we could

:26:53.:26:54.

be sidelined And finally -

:26:55.:26:58.

Scotland's vote doesn't actually make the front page of the Daily

:26:59.:27:03.

Post, but there's coverage inside. Here is the weather. Some parts of

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Wales were hit by dramatic weather last night. Much quieter tonight.

:27:27.:27:35.

Showers will clear. Sunshine on Sunday. It will turn fresher with

:27:36.:27:41.

colder nights on the way. Still a few showers tonight. Otherwise it is

:27:42.:27:46.

dry. Showers will clear eastwards. Eight miles night. Tomorrow morning

:27:47.:27:52.

the roll cloud will gradually lift. It will brighten up in places. A

:27:53.:27:58.

fair amount of cloud. Across the rest of the UK if you find that he

:27:59.:28:02.

showers likely for Eastern England and East Anglia, light rain and

:28:03.:28:09.

drizzle for the Northeast of England, and Northern Ireland and

:28:10.:28:12.

Scotland side with sunshine. Humid in the South. For as in Wales

:28:13.:28:20.

tomorrow there may be the odd shower. Otherwise it is a tri-

:28:21.:28:29.

story. Some sunshine. Temperatures still Maggie in the South. Tomorrow

:28:30.:28:38.

night if you showers possible in the North, otherwise dry. The cloud

:28:39.:28:41.

seeding after midnight. Calder fresher night. Sunday,

:28:42.:28:53.

high-pressure. Nice day on Sunday. Lovely sunshine. Clouds will tend to

:28:54.:29:01.

build up during the day. It will be pleasantly warm with light winds.

:29:02.:29:07.

Feeling fresher with lower humidity. Sunday the best day of the weekend.

:29:08.:29:14.

More trite weather to come next week. Have a lovely weekend.

:29:15.:29:20.

And the main news gain tonight. Carwyn Jones sees Wales cannot play

:29:21.:29:32.

second fiddle when the next phase of constitutional change is discussed.

:29:33.:29:38.

He also paid tribute to Alex Salmond after he announced he would resign

:29:39.:29:45.

from Scottish First Minister. Much more on our websites tonight.

:29:46.:29:57.

My thanks to all our guests the studio. That is all for now.

:29:58.:30:00.

Goodbye.

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