Vivienne Westwood Talks To Kirsty Wark

BBC Four Collections -

specially chosen programmes from the BBC archive.

# God save the Queen

# She ain't no human being... #

KIRSTY WARK: 'To many, Vivienne Westwood

'will always be the queen of punk.

'Along with her partner, the pop Svengali Malcolm McLaren,

'they unleashed their provocative antifashion designs

'upon '70s Britain.

'Their shop on the King's Road in Chelsea

'clothed anarchy's most famous advocates, the Sex Pistols,

'and gave a generation of teenagers

'arguably the most shocking street style ever.

'But she's also the queen of the catwalk, lionised in Paris and Milan,

'the champion of traditional British fabrics,

'influencing, innovating and outraging in equal measure.

'Now the Victoria and Albert Museum

'has cemented Westwood's place in the fashion firmament

'by staging its biggest ever exhibition

'devoted to a fashion designer -

'a major retrospective of her remarkable 34-year career.

'Born in Glossop in 1941,

'Vivienne Westwood began her working life as a teacher

'in a primary school.

'But today she presides over her own business empire

'with a turnover approaching £50 million a year.

'She's come a long way from her homely Derbyshire roots.

'Yet Westwood still owns the same shop

'where she and Malcolm McLaren pioneered

'the aggressive DIY aesthetic of punk

'and created cultural mayhem in the mid-'70s.'

When you began, the idea of fashion for you was a political statement.

Did you think that you were a revolutionary?

I was anti...um...

the injustice in the world.

And I felt very terrible about what you hear about now,

you know, everything that's still going on -

you know, people suffering

because of the way the world is so dreadfully mismanaged,

and so I was all up for it, you know.

Malcolm hated the older generation.

He had different motives than I did for what we did.

And... But I also hated the older generation in that time

because I thought, you know, all the corruption in the world is due

to people not doing anything about it.

Nobody is protesting, nobody is...

You know, they're all settled down and not doing anything.

So I think it's very sane for young people to be angry.

And that is what we were doing.

And I wanted this look of an urban guerrilla. And that's...

what we were after.

It was a moment in your life when you were working,

making clothes for the punk movement. You'd opened the King's Road shop.

I just want to say that I was not making clothes for the punk movement.

I want to tell you quite clearly that

Malcolm and I invented that in that shop.

And when we opened the doors, then people could buy it,

and it got called punk.

And I was very grateful because all of a sudden

I didn't have people all making rude remarks about my spiky hair.

They just shouted, "Punk!" after you.

So they all knew what that was about, and it was OK.

But did you think at that point it was a moment in your life,

or did you know then that you would be making fashion

and creating clothes for the rest of your life?

No, I did not consider myself a fashion designer.

I was simply helping Malcolm.

There came a period when the Sex Pistols folded,

and I'd had enough, and Malcolm had had enough.

And I said to him, "Malcolm, you know, this has all come undone,

"this Sex Pistols thing, it's all a disaster.

"I can help you in the music business if you like,

"or you can help me in the fashion business,"

because he'd already been working so much on that.

And he said, "Oh, fashion," immediately.

Of course, you know, once that was decided, then he went off

and started to work with Adam Ant and then on to his group Bow Wow Wow.

And so I was left with this fashion baby.

Had you found your metier?

Had you decided that you were going to move culture on

through your clothes,

and therefore this was what your direction was going to be?

No. When I look back on it,

I don't think I could ever do a fashion that had such an impact.

And when I say "I", you'll have to realise that

I am referring to "we" when I speak, because I was with Malcolm.

But nevertheless, I was the one doing it.

And I realised that these things had been formed,

that I'd made these fantastic clothes,

and that people were copying them

and that they were even on Paris catwalks,

and I just thought,

"I must exploit these things, otherwise I'm a stupid person.

"I must get the benefit of this.

"I must enter this business world, and start to really sell the clothes

"and present them to journalists and be a fashion designer."

I realised that I could be.

What was it like preparing for your first catwalk show?

Was it chaotic, was it last minute?

I was up all night. I don't know how many days I had been up.

And I do know that the day of the fashion show I...

..I went to Olympia where the show was.

I was ten minutes late, and I came,

and there was this photographer, Michael Roberts,

standing at the back.

Everybody was listening to the show with all the music and stuff.

I got hold of him and I said, "Do you know where the backstage is?"

And he laughed, and he told me where to go.

And then Malcolm said, "Well, if you want to, you can go and sit

"and watch it because, you know, I'm sending the girls out."

So I went and watched it, and I was just awestruck, I really was.

I just...just forgot me and just entered this world.

It was really wonderful.

And at this time I was working from home.

My front room. I had a sewing machine

and a lady used to come and help me.

And up until then, I'd had various rockers who used to call each day

and stud all those clothes with me and stuff,

so I really worked from home.

I think I was working more or less alone, doing all the patterns,

trying everything on my own body, cos I was a perfect size ten,

and, um, eventually putting this thing together.

And Malcolm would come and give me some suggestions for fabrics

and prints and things,

but there I was, working at home with outdoor workers.

I would take things to people to sew for me.

Presumably, some of the people that you took your stuff to sew

were much older than you,

and they would think, "What? Is this something that's come from Mars?"

I mean, it's a completely...

They were people, yeah, people, you know,

who advertised in the local paper.

I advertised in the local paper,

and people who had a sewing machine replied,

and, yes, I used to go and visit them.

WARK: 'By 1983, Westwood and McLaren

'were staging their collection in Paris.

'Though their work was inspired by designs from European history,

'the developing world and American hip-hop,

'their approach seemed radical and new.

'But Witches, the autumn/winter collection of that year,

'was to be their last collaboration.

'Westwood abandoned the street for the catwalk,

'said goodbye to her former partner,

'and embarked on her solo career in earnest.

'But she retained her passion for the British materials

'that had first emerged during the heyday of punk.'

WESTWOOD: We had used some Harris Tweed.

I had a bondage jacket in Harris Tweed in punk rock times.

We did like Harris Tweed.

It was when I was in Italy, and I was looking at fabrics,

and I really missed the most essential basic fabrics,

and couldn't find things.

They were all fantasy fabrics or something a little bit different.

When you're in Italy, that's the phrase you hear more than anything.

"Oh, something different, a bit different."

And it might be different, but it's not what I want.

And I really missed the idea of these basic fabrics,

and so,

I did this very sort of kitsch English collection,

and I wanted to use Harris Tweed.

And I approached Harris Tweed and they sent me their swatches.

And I think I chose 23...

- Keep them going for a year! - ..different colourways.

And that's when I came up with this idea of doing

all this armour and stuff,

putting all different Harris Tweeds together,

because some of it reminds you of mist,

and some of it reminds you of, I don't know, a dog's fur,

or... It's just absolutely incredible stuff.

I had a tailor as well, and he should know,

cos he was a terrible tailor, and he said,

"You can't make a bad jacket from Harris Tweed."

It's a wonderful fabric to work with.

And what about your connection with John Smedley?

Was that because it reminded you of your childhood

and growing up in that area, where Smedley's had their factory?

No, I just wanted these basic things.

I wanted to introduce fine knitwear.

I think it's extremely fashionable,

but I don't know whether it ever was considered fashion,

because it's so English, but the idea of the twinset and pearls...

And I've already mentioned, I was in Italy,

and my manager, Carlo,

introduced me to this lady who had the best knitwear company,

and it was going to be wonderful - we were going to work together.

And I said, "I have to have this fine knitwear,"

and she said, "I don't have the machinery."

She said, "Why do you want a fine sweater when you have a thick one?"

believe it or not!

I mean, you're looking like this, but, you see,

you've all got used to it again.

But I think one of the most sexy things imaginable

is a little button-up cardigan.

Just undo the top two buttons. It's brilliant.

And it's really great on a man as well.

I think they're the most sexy little things.

They're like underwear, in a way.

And yours had the orb as the little...

- Mm. - ..badge, or brooch.

- Mm. - Where did the idea

for your logo come from?

WESTWOOD: Well, this is again, it's another influence of a man,

which is my manager, Carlo.

And what I was doing... In this same period in Italy I was designing,

and I did this sweater for Prince Charles. Very kitsch.

I thought, "It's going to be so English.

"It's the kind of thing he could wear

"when he goes to his shooting... whatever season."

And so it had thistles and roses and leeks and shamrocks,

and all these sorts of motifs on it, and it had some lions on it.

And it had...this word "deep sky",

because I wanted to make it sort of futuristic,

and so "deep sky" was all sort of done in computer-type lettering

in knitwear, all Fair Isle, traditional Fair Isle sweater.

And amongst this - these crowns and lions and dragons and things -

there was a motif with an orb with a satellite ring round it.

That's one of the things on it.

And my manager said to me, "That is your symbol."

He said, "You've got it. That's the logo. It sums you up completely."

He said, "It's traditional and futuristic at the same time."

And he said, "Do that, that's your logo." So I did it by accident,

thanks to Prince Charles.

Have you ever seen Prince Charles wearing the sweater?

No, no, I never gave him one. I don't know...

We've probably got one in our archive.

WARK: 'Westwood's interest in history is evident in much of her work.

'Since the early '80s, she's been rummaging through the V&A archives

'and she doesn't confine herself to the costume department.'

WESTWOOD: 'I have had several appointments here over the years

'to look into the archives at the V&A,

'as well as appreciating their permanent exhibition.

I think it's not only a question of looking at applied arts

'which are specific to my craft - printing and dressmaking -

'I think also that you absorb the qualities of things.'

Ah, this is brilliant. Clodion, by the looks of it. But, anyway...

Clodion. Yeah, I'm right.

I've never seen this before, but it's absolutely brilliant.

'What I'm really touched by, really more than anything,

'is human genius -

'what people have been able to do in the past.'

WARK: 'The V&A archive inspired one of Westwood's greatest successes.

'For years, the whalebone corset had been despised

'as the sartorial symbol of women's oppression,

'but, brilliantly, Westwood reinvented it.'

And here, this is the thing. This is the thing for the V&A.

This is 1780s. The stitching is so perfect.

WESTWOOD: Those things were made by tailors,

and this is a corset from the 17th, 18th century.

And what it does, it has no room for the bust at all,

so the bust comes right out,

and you've all seen those 17th-century Dutch paintings

with people with their bust right under their chin.

It really knocks it right up.

And what I had realised is that you could do this

as a ready-to-wear garment.

What you could do is, you could have a bit less boning,

put elastic side panels and a zip,

so you wouldn't need a maid to lace you in.

And we put back the possibility of this corset

that could push your bust right out.

And people loved it, and it's one of the things that

I knew people would really, really like.

And when I first showed it on the catwalk,

the photographers,

they just nearly died. They just nearly died.

This little girl, it was Sadie Frost, actually,

and she opened her coat, and they just made this noise.

And then she went off the catwalk and they all said,

"Come back, darling," they said to her.

It was brilliant.

This tartan outfit,

just this position of it in the vitrine is something.

It's just an absolute sensation.

Because... This was worn by Linda Evangelista in a fashion show.

And she's got a very, very high ghillie platform shoes

and these legwarmers all to match.

And so that's how high she would be.

She would be really that kind of proportion,

and so the whole thing is in this sort of area,

and I just think if you look at a 19th-century engraving,

you never would see anything more flamboyant, more extreme,

more stylish, more chic than this thing.

It's just got all this Scottish feeling in it.

It's just incredibly lovely.

I know I'm talking about my own clothes,

but I'm just in love with them!

Can't help it.

This is another one of Linda,

again wearing this divine hat by Prudence, who works with us.

And there we are again. I mean, she did get absolutely great outfits,

deservedly so.

She's a wonderful favourite of me. I just think she's terrific, that girl.

And here, this is a little bit more

something that you can definitely wear in the daytime.

Of course, these are showpieces.

Here we have the little kilt made in the lace instead,

and, I mean, it's just really, really sexy with a little sweater there

and a hat.

It's just stylish.

In real life, that looks great.

WARK: 'By the late '80s, Westwood had established herself

'as one of the most influential designers in the world.

'But her unorthodox designs

'haven't always been as warmly appreciated by people at home.'

AUDIENCE LAUGHTER

- SUE LAWLEY: I mean, what sort... - If they don't stop laughing,

I shall tell the next person not to come on.

LAWLEY: Oh, dear. You're not to laugh.

WESTWOOD: You can laugh, but look as well.

It's really great.

- Is this a winter collection? - Yeah.

LAUGHTER

These things are just really sophisticated.

If you don't understand that...

That is, but she looks like a chip shop, that one.

WARK: 'Westwood's more outlandish designs are often headline grabbers.

'And she's always managed her relationships with the media

'very shrewdly.

'And she isn't averse to exploiting her own notoriety

'or resorting to self-parody -

'a trait best instanced

'when she posed as an ex-punk Thatcher

'for a magazine shoot in 1989.'

Tell me about your Tatler cover as Mrs Thatcher.

There was a kind of uncanny resemblance. Were you an admirer?

Not at all. I think Margaret Thatcher was a monster.

I think Tony Blair's a monster.

I couldn't say which is the worst of them both.

But they are horrible, dangerous people.

And, no, not at all.

Um, I thought that she was the biggest hypocrite.

And, um, that's why I was able... It was my acting skill.

That is why I was able to capture her,

because I just thought to myself,

"I'm going to show all these people in the world how much I care."

And...

So I imagined a poor little child in a hospital bed,

and this man, Michael Roberts, who took the picture, he was going mad.

And he said, "No, you need one more thing.

"Put into your mind, 'Do they believe me or not?'"

And then he went... Cos I had it then,

this little doubt - whether they believe you or not -

and I completely got the woman. Yeah.

It's funny, actually, because people used to talk about Margaret Thatcher

as being a kind of very sexual being,

that she kind of controlled her Cabinet round about her.

Did you get that sense from her?

I can understand men liking Margaret Thatcher,

because she is a very powerful woman.

And I think that she dressed fantastically.

I think she really had got a sense of...

making herself look very important

and yet good looking at the same time.

She did really choose her clothes so well. She looked great.

WARK: 'Although Westwood remains one of design's great radicals,

'she's very much fashion royalty.

'In the early '90s, the British Fashion Council

'named her its Designer of the Year for two years in succession.'

The Designer of the Year is...

WARK: 'But she'll always be too eccentric for some.'

Oh, dear. Vivienne Westwood.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

The best thing about winning this award is a personal thing,

the fact that one is appreciated.

And, um, as long as you continue to appreciate me,

I shall continue to design and to show in England.

WARK: 'But in an age when it can cost tens of thousands of pounds

'to lure a supermodel from her bed to the catwalk,

'Westwood has seldom been able to show in London.

'Since 1990, she's been forced to take her collections to the city

'that remains the centre of fashion gravity, Paris.

'In Paris, she quickly established herself as part of the fashion elite,

'earning respect at the highest table of haute couture.

'She attributes her success, in part,

'to the contribution of her latest collaborator.'

WESTWOOD: I think I have to mention my husband, Andreas,

because it's absolutely great to work with a man.

He designs... He probably designs as much as I do at this point in time.

And he certainly organises more than I do. He's really, really...

It's like having two of myself, except he's different.

I once said, "I don't know whether these models backstage" -

Naomi - looking at her, like she came from another planet...

And I said, "I don't know whether they look goddesses or monsters

"cos they look so extreme."

It's Andreas' influence here to make these women larger than life,

and this is how we got into this incredible idea of distort...

not distorting, but enhancing the figure,

and changing the proportion.

And I think it was because he really wanted always

to put women on a pedestal that we did it that way.

But before I met him, I was ten years on my own, it's true,

and I put women on a pedestal before that

when I invented my platform shoes,

because I wanted them to look important,

and I wanted them to look as grand and wonderful

and rich as those ladies that you see in portraits.

And I wanted them to look like

they'd stepped out of one of those portraits,

Gainsborough or something.

WARK: 'One special pair of platforms

'is now among the most popular of the V&A's permanent exhibits.

'It's the pair won by supermodel Naomi Campbell in 1993

'when she tumbled on the catwalk in front of the world's press.

Tell me what you felt like when Naomi Campbell fell off

one of your shoes.

Well, Naomi...

Now then, she is a very, um, proud woman.

And...

I was worried when she fell off,

because the last thing she is going to do is look upset.

Even if she's broken her leg, she's going to laugh or whatever.

So she carried it off wonderfully. She looked gorgeous when she fell.

She looked like a gazelle that you see in slow motion on the...

you know, when a lion has got it.

She just... It was fantastic how she fell.

I think it's one of the best things she ever did.

But, anyway, I ran to where her rail of clothes were,

cos she had to change for the next outfit when she came off.

She was lying on her back on the floor.

I said, "You must go back on the catwalk."

I don't think she fancied it.

And she said to me, "Vivienne, if I fall on that catwalk again,

"you are going to come and pick me up."

How much was it your desire to make women be the best they could be?

Obviously, women don't look like Naomi Campbell.

Mm. Mm-hm.

Ordinary women should be able to wear your clothes.

Mm. Well, if people ask, you know, "Who is Vivienne Westwood?"

the first adjective that comes to mind is "sexy".

They all think my clothes are sexy.

And it's true that as a woman designer,

I do have a feeling for what women find sexy.

My clothes bring out the personality of people.

It makes them look very, very special and individual.

The feeling that runs through my clothes from

when I first started to now

is that they are very heroic.

I think they do make you larger than life.

I do think that they make you look very important.

And, for me, that's sexy. She's got clout.

WESTWOOD: My recent collections,

they are an example of things that have happened to me before,

and it's a sort of almost a cardinal turning part in my life.

And what happened is I got bored with myself.

I did not want to always be flattering the feminine form,

making the waist look smaller by illusion,

making the bust look more curvy,

making somebody look more dynamic

that she is sort of tottering on something.

I just got fed up with it and I just changed the proportion.

I thought, "I'm not going to do that."

I got a bit of inspiration from Africa,

because that's to do with putting fabric on yourself in different ways

so that the waist is not necessarily where the waist is.

It might be round the hips.

And they've got all kinds of strange proportions to them.

It's very, very much to do about fabric.

They almost look like sort of paper bags

or something that you've been just sort of wrapped up in.

I was walking through the exhibition with my mother,

letting her have a look at it.

She said to me, "Well, Vivienne,

"I don't know where you dreamed up all this," she said.

She'd no idea that I'd done so much,

and yet it's just a tiny summit of the iceberg.

There's just so much that I've done.

But nevertheless, it is an epitome of my work.

And it's 360 degrees somehow.

There seems to be everything in there.

Do you feel that this exhibition at the V&A

is an affirmation of you as a craftswoman?

Hm. It is the thing that I am proud of, that I have,

over all these years, managed to develop and sustain a technique,

and that without that, I don't believe self-expression is possible.

I would have dried up years ago

if I'd simply been sitting with a drawing and a pencil.

The last collection I did, three weeks before the Paris show,

I didn't have a piece. I didn't like anything. Nothing was coming through.

I was completely stuck.

And I think sometimes...

Cos sometimes it's easy.

But I think sometimes the public wouldn't have any idea

of how close you come to, you know, just not managing it.

Even on the day of the show, I couldn't like it.

I still couldn't like it. I'd suffered so much.

And I'll tell you what happened.

Two days later, I just looked at the paper of something that I had kept,

a photograph of the wedding dress from the paper.

And I just looked at it and I just thought,

"That is just the best thing on the Earth." You know.

I mean, and, yeah, I did that. So don't worry next time,

just do it, you know. So I think I'll be all right next time.

You once said that you can have a better life

if you wear impressive clothes. Do you still believe that?

Yes, certainly.

Another way of saying that is, my maxim - "If in doubt, dress up."

Don't ever dress down. You'll be so disappointed.

I don't have to shine in any sort of event or social gathering.

I'm thrilled to bits

if I see somebody looking wonderful, wonderful. I can adore it, you know.

I don't... I don't have to be the one.

But I always want to look my best,

and I do believe that that's what women want.

That's what fashion's about.

I mean, we're not there to show up bad points, are we?

We're there to hide them and show up our good points.

Vivienne Westwood, thank you very much.

Thank you.