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They were once the enfant terrible of the art world, | 0:00:08 | 0:00:11 | |
whose work had the power to cause shock and outrage | 0:00:11 | 0:00:13 | |
as well as to delight. | 0:00:13 | 0:00:15 | |
Now, Jeff Koons and Damien Hirst are giants of Modern Art, | 0:00:15 | 0:00:18 | |
their work sells for millions. | 0:00:18 | 0:00:20 | |
And they've come together at Damien Hirst's new gallery | 0:00:20 | 0:00:23 | |
in Newport Street in London's Vauxhall | 0:00:23 | 0:00:25 | |
for a free exhibition of Jeff Koons' art. | 0:00:25 | 0:00:28 | |
# Let's go! # | 0:00:28 | 0:00:29 | |
It's a rare opportunity to see Koons' work spanning more than | 0:00:32 | 0:00:36 | |
four decades, from the ready-made to the surreal, | 0:00:36 | 0:00:39 | |
from the childlike to the pornographic. | 0:00:39 | 0:00:42 | |
It's a feast for the eyes and all the senses. | 0:00:42 | 0:00:45 | |
It's the first show of Jeff Koons' work in this country since 2009 | 0:00:57 | 0:01:02 | |
and it comes from Damien Hirst's own collection. | 0:01:02 | 0:01:05 | |
The two artists collaborated closely on the show. | 0:01:08 | 0:01:12 | |
Damien Hirst had 36 of Jeff Koons' works, | 0:01:12 | 0:01:15 | |
Jeff Koons had a cardboard model of the gallery in New York. | 0:01:15 | 0:01:18 | |
This was the model they used here in the Newport Gallery | 0:01:18 | 0:01:21 | |
and together they installed the show. | 0:01:21 | 0:01:23 | |
So Jeff Koons has an idea of what to expect, | 0:01:25 | 0:01:29 | |
but this is the moment when he sees it for the first time. | 0:01:29 | 0:01:33 | |
Wow. | 0:01:38 | 0:01:39 | |
In the first gallery are some of his early ready-made works, | 0:01:41 | 0:01:45 | |
or everyday objects presented as art. | 0:01:45 | 0:01:48 | |
Damien, this looks amazing. It looks really amazing. | 0:01:49 | 0:01:53 | |
Wow. | 0:01:53 | 0:01:54 | |
Wow, let me give you a hug. | 0:01:55 | 0:01:57 | |
-There we go. -Thank YOU. | 0:01:59 | 0:02:01 | |
So, tell us about this, because this goes right back. | 0:02:01 | 0:02:05 | |
These are inflatable flowers from 1978. | 0:02:05 | 0:02:09 | |
I remember they would come in a package | 0:02:09 | 0:02:11 | |
and it would say, "For modern home decor." | 0:02:11 | 0:02:14 | |
And I would just go to the hardware store | 0:02:14 | 0:02:16 | |
and buy pre-cut glass mirrors, they were 12-inch square, | 0:02:16 | 0:02:21 | |
and I would set them down and what I enjoyed so much was, you know, | 0:02:21 | 0:02:25 | |
when you move, the abstraction changes. | 0:02:25 | 0:02:29 | |
And so I just love the simplicity of that | 0:02:29 | 0:02:32 | |
and, you know, the sexual quality of that reflection. | 0:02:32 | 0:02:36 | |
I mean, it's enhanced, it's charged-up. | 0:02:36 | 0:02:40 | |
In his ready-made pieces, | 0:02:42 | 0:02:44 | |
Koons took inspiration from the artist Marcel Duchamp, | 0:02:44 | 0:02:47 | |
who shocked the world a century ago by making a urinal a work of art. | 0:02:47 | 0:02:51 | |
The star of Koons' series called The New | 0:02:56 | 0:02:59 | |
was the common-or-garden vacuum cleaner. | 0:02:59 | 0:03:02 | |
Did this come directly from your interest in Duchamp and the ready-made? | 0:03:03 | 0:03:10 | |
Oh, absolutely. | 0:03:10 | 0:03:12 | |
I mean, to try to show the ready-made in a manner that | 0:03:12 | 0:03:15 | |
hopefully was adding something. | 0:03:15 | 0:03:18 | |
How important is it they're completely pristine? | 0:03:18 | 0:03:20 | |
Well, the most important thing is that they're never used. | 0:03:20 | 0:03:24 | |
You know, their case is clean, and what was important to me | 0:03:24 | 0:03:27 | |
was that they're new Hoovers, and so the ad, like, "Rooomy!" | 0:03:27 | 0:03:32 | |
You know, "Toyota, new family Camry." | 0:03:32 | 0:03:35 | |
It's about newness. | 0:03:35 | 0:03:37 | |
I also think that it's interesting using the vacuum cleaners, | 0:03:37 | 0:03:40 | |
because in the States, in America, at least, like, in the '50s, | 0:03:40 | 0:03:45 | |
the door-to-door salesman, he would sell Hoovers. | 0:03:45 | 0:03:49 | |
-And they were all Hoovers! -They were Hoovers. | 0:03:49 | 0:03:51 | |
I used to go door-to-door selling gift-wrapping paper, | 0:03:51 | 0:03:54 | |
chocolates, but this interaction with people, I mean, you know, | 0:03:54 | 0:03:59 | |
developing a context with the community or larger social group. | 0:03:59 | 0:04:05 | |
So then you come on and then THIS piece. | 0:04:05 | 0:04:09 | |
-Which was your first Hoover that you bought? -That was the first piece, I think. | 0:04:09 | 0:04:13 | |
So this is not a hoover, this is a shampooer? | 0:04:13 | 0:04:15 | |
Yeah, well, it's still a hoover, because it's made by Hoover. | 0:04:15 | 0:04:17 | |
-Hoover shampooer. -Hoover Shampooer. | 0:04:17 | 0:04:19 | |
But even looking at this, that kind of has, like, | 0:04:19 | 0:04:22 | |
an Egyptian, an Etruscan type of quality. | 0:04:22 | 0:04:25 | |
It's laid out almost like in a funerary-type manner. | 0:04:25 | 0:04:28 | |
Yeah, the reason why I liked them when I first bought one | 0:04:28 | 0:04:31 | |
was because they look like immortality. | 0:04:31 | 0:04:33 | |
This caused an argument with artists when you talked about your work | 0:04:33 | 0:04:36 | |
and you invest in this work, the idea, you know, Etruscan, Egyptian | 0:04:36 | 0:04:41 | |
and so forth, but the viewer doesn't have the benefit of your thought. | 0:04:41 | 0:04:45 | |
-Does that matter? -Um... But they do. Yeah, they do. | 0:04:45 | 0:04:51 | |
It's there in their subconscious manners, it's all metaphor. | 0:04:51 | 0:04:55 | |
They may not have the exact words... | 0:04:55 | 0:04:57 | |
Yeah, if somebody looks at it and says, "I don't know why I like it, but I do," | 0:04:57 | 0:05:01 | |
it's probably because of all the work that Jeff's put into | 0:05:01 | 0:05:04 | |
making it and presenting it in that way, with everything else taken away. | 0:05:04 | 0:05:08 | |
One of the pieces in the exhibition which | 0:05:12 | 0:05:14 | |
I find the most affecting is the idea that you've taken a life vest | 0:05:14 | 0:05:20 | |
and you've cast it so beautifully in bronze, | 0:05:20 | 0:05:24 | |
but anyone that puts on this and goes into the sea... | 0:05:24 | 0:05:27 | |
..doesn't survive. | 0:05:28 | 0:05:30 | |
Yeah. I mean, if you would leave that on, it would take you under. | 0:05:30 | 0:05:34 | |
Or even, like, the snorkel. | 0:05:34 | 0:05:36 | |
The snorkel's the first idea that I had for casting an object. | 0:05:36 | 0:05:41 | |
But now seeing it, because I've never seen this before, | 0:05:41 | 0:05:44 | |
what is extraordinary, the perfection of it is amazing, | 0:05:44 | 0:05:47 | |
down to the stitching that would have existed on the original canvas. | 0:05:47 | 0:05:52 | |
When I look at this, I think of, like, a Venus of Willendorf, | 0:05:52 | 0:05:55 | |
it's all kind of feminine form here. | 0:05:55 | 0:05:57 | |
You know it's a voluptuous... It's a... It's feminine form. | 0:05:57 | 0:06:01 | |
So these have now become one of your biggest, most iconic works. | 0:06:03 | 0:06:07 | |
In 2013, Koons broke the record for the most expensive work | 0:06:07 | 0:06:12 | |
by a living artist sold at auction. | 0:06:12 | 0:06:15 | |
A sculpture from the same series as this one, the Balloon Monkey, | 0:06:15 | 0:06:18 | |
fetched 58 million. | 0:06:18 | 0:06:21 | |
'It looks like it's filled with air, but actually, | 0:06:21 | 0:06:23 | |
'it's made of stainless steel.' | 0:06:23 | 0:06:25 | |
It's such a great colour. | 0:06:25 | 0:06:27 | |
I think it's my favourite colour of all the inflatable animals. | 0:06:27 | 0:06:32 | |
It feels like you couldn't really do the show without it. | 0:06:32 | 0:06:35 | |
And it's as if you built this room for it. It's like that. | 0:06:35 | 0:06:38 | |
I love the way the tail goes off to the right | 0:06:38 | 0:06:40 | |
and the wall is kind of sloped off to the right as well. | 0:06:40 | 0:06:43 | |
And this again is utterly perfect. | 0:06:43 | 0:06:46 | |
-Not a blemish on it. -Yeah, I've got no idea how you achieve that, | 0:06:46 | 0:06:49 | |
because if I get people to polish things, there's always a kind of | 0:06:49 | 0:06:52 | |
little ripple in the reflection, because the reflection's so pure. | 0:06:52 | 0:06:56 | |
We would white-light scan these, but we would also take CAT scans | 0:06:56 | 0:06:59 | |
of the model, so that we were able to know exactly | 0:06:59 | 0:07:02 | |
what the folds were like. | 0:07:02 | 0:07:04 | |
And so, you know, that's the basis of these objects. | 0:07:04 | 0:07:08 | |
You know that the knot is exactly like that. | 0:07:08 | 0:07:11 | |
That's the idea of a knot. | 0:07:11 | 0:07:13 | |
That's what the knot was like. | 0:07:13 | 0:07:15 | |
You know, these folds, these aren't just kind of the idea | 0:07:15 | 0:07:18 | |
of what happens when you make a balloon monkey... | 0:07:18 | 0:07:20 | |
-The actual... -These are the folds. | 0:07:20 | 0:07:22 | |
-I feel like the flies in A Bug's Life. You know, that movie? -Yes. | 0:07:22 | 0:07:26 | |
They say, "Don't look at the light." | 0:07:26 | 0:07:27 | |
"I can't help it. It's so beautiful!" | 0:07:27 | 0:07:30 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:07:30 | 0:07:32 | |
One room is not for the faint-hearted. | 0:07:32 | 0:07:34 | |
When did you get these pieces, Damien? | 0:07:34 | 0:07:36 | |
About six or seven years ago. | 0:07:36 | 0:07:38 | |
While a huge bowl of eggs symbolises creation and birth, | 0:07:38 | 0:07:42 | |
the other works here are shockingly explicit. | 0:07:42 | 0:07:44 | |
They're from a series from the early '90s called Made in Heaven, | 0:07:47 | 0:07:50 | |
starring Ilona Staller, better known by her porn star name, Cicciolina. | 0:07:50 | 0:07:54 | |
# Ah, love to love you, baby... # | 0:07:57 | 0:08:00 | |
When I first saw it, I was like, "He's lost it." | 0:08:00 | 0:08:02 | |
I just thought, "That's not art. He's completely, completely lost it." | 0:08:02 | 0:08:06 | |
It was like... I didn't like them. | 0:08:06 | 0:08:07 | |
I just thought, "Why would you want to go that far?" kind of thing. | 0:08:07 | 0:08:10 | |
And then afterwards, it was a couple of years later, | 0:08:10 | 0:08:13 | |
I was like, "Oh, my God! No, I love them." | 0:08:13 | 0:08:15 | |
They were my favourite pieces of Jeff's. | 0:08:15 | 0:08:17 | |
I kind of imagined that when you did them, maybe you were... | 0:08:20 | 0:08:24 | |
Maybe you had to psych yourself up to get to that point, | 0:08:24 | 0:08:27 | |
which I always admired. | 0:08:27 | 0:08:29 | |
But if it was an expression of love and the love was already there, | 0:08:29 | 0:08:32 | |
-then was it easier to do? -Er, the love happened. | 0:08:32 | 0:08:35 | |
I mean, so originally it was an idea, because the Whitney Museum | 0:08:35 | 0:08:38 | |
asked me if I wanted to make a work about media. | 0:08:38 | 0:08:41 | |
So I thought, "I'll add a star on my shoulder," | 0:08:42 | 0:08:46 | |
and the easiest way to get in film would be porn. | 0:08:46 | 0:08:49 | |
And so I thought, "I'll hire that Italian woman that | 0:08:49 | 0:08:53 | |
"I used references of in my Banality show." | 0:08:53 | 0:08:57 | |
I ended up using one of her dresses in a piece called Fait d'Hiver. | 0:08:57 | 0:09:00 | |
"And I'll make it like we're making a movie and I'll call it | 0:09:00 | 0:09:04 | |
"Made In Heaven starring Jeff Koons and Cicciolina." | 0:09:04 | 0:09:07 | |
So that's how it came about and we started flirting, | 0:09:07 | 0:09:11 | |
and ended up becoming something more than just the idea of this film. | 0:09:11 | 0:09:16 | |
But do you think they became more explicit than even you had | 0:09:16 | 0:09:19 | |
imagined because there was a relationship? | 0:09:19 | 0:09:23 | |
Er...yes. I mean, I thought I was just going to make this billboard. | 0:09:23 | 0:09:27 | |
-No billboard there! -But as... | 0:09:27 | 0:09:29 | |
But when we started flirting, | 0:09:29 | 0:09:32 | |
then I decided that actually I could take this further. | 0:09:32 | 0:09:36 | |
# Ah, love to love you, baby... # | 0:09:38 | 0:09:39 | |
Do you think now... | 0:09:39 | 0:09:41 | |
because things have moved on and it was a difficult period | 0:09:41 | 0:09:44 | |
in your life, but do you reflect on these differently now? | 0:09:44 | 0:09:48 | |
No. You know, I accepted my ex-wife's past. | 0:09:48 | 0:09:52 | |
I accepted her background. | 0:09:52 | 0:09:54 | |
I fell in love with her for who she was, exactly the person, | 0:09:54 | 0:09:59 | |
but it ended up it did not work out, so it was really about acceptance. | 0:09:59 | 0:10:04 | |
This is only the second exhibition at Hirst's wonderful new gallery. | 0:10:07 | 0:10:11 | |
He's one of Britain's most successful artists, | 0:10:11 | 0:10:13 | |
but he's also been a passionate curator since his student days. | 0:10:13 | 0:10:18 | |
-You know, Damien, what a range of works you have. -I know! | 0:10:18 | 0:10:21 | |
To come from downstairs and The New and the Monkey | 0:10:21 | 0:10:26 | |
and the Made In Heaven, to be here with the Kiepenkerl. | 0:10:26 | 0:10:30 | |
This was a really transformative piece | 0:10:32 | 0:10:34 | |
and when I made the Kiepenkerl it was 1987. | 0:10:34 | 0:10:37 | |
I was asked to be in an exhibition in Munster and I saw in the town | 0:10:37 | 0:10:42 | |
square they had this sculpture of the Kiepenkerl in bronze. | 0:10:42 | 0:10:46 | |
And I thought, "I'll recast that. I'll put it in stainless steel." | 0:10:46 | 0:10:51 | |
And as he reflected that he met the needs of an agrarian culture... | 0:10:51 | 0:10:56 | |
I mean, this is a man coming to market with a kip filled with | 0:10:56 | 0:10:59 | |
eggs, potatoes, pigeons. | 0:10:59 | 0:11:01 | |
He has tobacco, pear... | 0:11:01 | 0:11:03 | |
This idea of self-reliance. | 0:11:04 | 0:11:06 | |
Today, we have our kind of economic needs as a type of security | 0:11:06 | 0:11:11 | |
met different ways and that by having it in this reflective | 0:11:11 | 0:11:15 | |
stainless steel mirrored surface, it reflected more | 0:11:15 | 0:11:18 | |
the transcendent state of feeling like our needs were met. | 0:11:18 | 0:11:22 | |
So, it's great to see that you have Kiepenkerl. | 0:11:22 | 0:11:25 | |
And then you've got the Jim Beam series. | 0:11:25 | 0:11:27 | |
It's a kind of luxury item though, isn't it? | 0:11:27 | 0:11:29 | |
-And yet stainless steel is not. -It's referencing luxury items. | 0:11:29 | 0:11:33 | |
This is the first time I ever worked in stainless steel. | 0:11:33 | 0:11:37 | |
So I was walking down Fifth Avenue in New York and I looked | 0:11:37 | 0:11:41 | |
in a liquor store window and they had the Jim Beam JB Turner train. | 0:11:41 | 0:11:47 | |
They had, you know, this engine and the train cars lined up | 0:11:47 | 0:11:51 | |
and I thought, "Wow! What a great object to work with." | 0:11:51 | 0:11:55 | |
And it transformed. | 0:11:55 | 0:11:56 | |
I put it in stainless steel, bring it to a high-mirror polish | 0:11:56 | 0:12:01 | |
so it will be intoxicating, | 0:12:01 | 0:12:02 | |
but what's important is how to transform it and maintain its soul. | 0:12:02 | 0:12:09 | |
And its soul is that it's a fifth of Jim Beam bourbon, or | 0:12:09 | 0:12:13 | |
if you slide back the door, right there is the neck of the bottle. | 0:12:13 | 0:12:18 | |
You know, with this piece here, the Italian lady, | 0:12:18 | 0:12:20 | |
I remember seeing this. | 0:12:20 | 0:12:21 | |
This was the one in the Saatchi Gallery, the actual one, | 0:12:21 | 0:12:24 | |
and I remember seeing the book on it when I first saw the show, | 0:12:24 | 0:12:27 | |
under there, and I remember being totally confused by that. | 0:12:27 | 0:12:32 | |
-This is a book that says, "Manzoni here." -Yeah. | 0:12:32 | 0:12:35 | |
This is Lucia and Lucia is one of the main figures in | 0:12:35 | 0:12:41 | |
Manzoni's writing and this is called Italian Woman, | 0:12:41 | 0:12:44 | |
but it's very bourgeois-looking. | 0:12:44 | 0:12:46 | |
Some of Koon's most celebrated pieces - | 0:12:50 | 0:12:53 | |
basketballs floating in perfect equilibrium in a glass tank - | 0:12:53 | 0:12:56 | |
are echoed by Hirst's most famous works, | 0:12:56 | 0:12:59 | |
his dead creatures in formaldehyde. | 0:12:59 | 0:13:02 | |
Had you made any vitrine pieces before you saw this? | 0:13:08 | 0:13:10 | |
What date was this? I don't think so. | 0:13:10 | 0:13:12 | |
This would be '85. | 0:13:12 | 0:13:14 | |
What I'd been... Before I came to London, | 0:13:14 | 0:13:16 | |
I'd been in the Anatomy Museum in Leeds where they had all | 0:13:16 | 0:13:19 | |
the objects in formaldehyde in like a museum section. | 0:13:19 | 0:13:24 | |
What I'd been doing is drawing from those, like medical students | 0:13:24 | 0:13:27 | |
trying to sort of understand anatomy for life drawing. | 0:13:27 | 0:13:31 | |
But then, when I started to see Jeff's work, it reminded me | 0:13:31 | 0:13:34 | |
of those things and I thought, "Oh, my God! | 0:13:34 | 0:13:36 | |
"I shouldn't be doing that. I should be taking it directly," | 0:13:36 | 0:13:38 | |
because that's what Jeff was doing. | 0:13:38 | 0:13:40 | |
It's kind of interesting that one artist contributes | 0:13:40 | 0:13:42 | |
so directly to another artist's work. | 0:13:42 | 0:13:46 | |
That's what all art does. | 0:13:46 | 0:13:48 | |
At Goldsmith's they taught us, "Don't borrow ideas, steal them." | 0:13:48 | 0:13:52 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:13:52 | 0:13:53 | |
Gallery Five has some of Koons' more recent works. | 0:13:57 | 0:14:00 | |
It's playful yet disturbing at the same time. | 0:14:00 | 0:14:03 | |
The lobster has more than a passing resemblance to | 0:14:06 | 0:14:08 | |
a master of Surrealism. | 0:14:08 | 0:14:10 | |
When I was younger, 18 or 19, my mother informed me | 0:14:13 | 0:14:17 | |
that Dali had lived half the year in New York. | 0:14:17 | 0:14:20 | |
So I found out he stayed at the St Regis hotel. | 0:14:20 | 0:14:23 | |
So I called up the hotel and I told him that I was a fan | 0:14:23 | 0:14:28 | |
and I would love to meet him. | 0:14:28 | 0:14:30 | |
And he said, "Come to New York next weekend. | 0:14:30 | 0:14:33 | |
"I'll meet you in the lobby of the hotel at 12 o'clock." | 0:14:33 | 0:14:36 | |
And I went there and there he was. | 0:14:36 | 0:14:38 | |
He had his buffalo fur coat on and his diamond tie tag, | 0:14:38 | 0:14:43 | |
the silver cane and he posed for some photographs. | 0:14:43 | 0:14:46 | |
He put his moustache up. | 0:14:46 | 0:14:48 | |
I remember I was young and I was kind of jiggling my camera around. | 0:14:48 | 0:14:53 | |
I was nervous and he said, "Come on, kid. I can't hold this all day." | 0:14:53 | 0:14:57 | |
So, it's nice to kind of remember that. | 0:14:57 | 0:14:59 | |
So, it has aspects of Dali, but it's also LHOOQ | 0:14:59 | 0:15:04 | |
with Marcel Duchamp drawing on the Mona Lisa. | 0:15:04 | 0:15:08 | |
And, again, look like they're blown up with air, but they're not. | 0:15:08 | 0:15:11 | |
-No, they're aluminium. -Is also more acrobatic, it seems. | 0:15:11 | 0:15:15 | |
That's right, but there's something interesting that's very, very, | 0:15:15 | 0:15:18 | |
masculine, but at the same time, | 0:15:18 | 0:15:20 | |
there's something very feminine and the tail... | 0:15:20 | 0:15:23 | |
It almost looks like a type of feather fan that maybe | 0:15:23 | 0:15:28 | |
a stripper would use. | 0:15:28 | 0:15:30 | |
And if you look, these could also be fallopian tubes, | 0:15:30 | 0:15:33 | |
this could be womblike. This could be kind of vaginal lips. | 0:15:33 | 0:15:38 | |
It kind of goes back and forth from masculine and feminine. | 0:15:38 | 0:15:41 | |
The collection here is one of the biggest of Jeff Koons' work | 0:15:43 | 0:15:46 | |
in the world and represents most of his career. | 0:15:46 | 0:15:50 | |
-I liked this view. -This is great. -Yes. | 0:15:50 | 0:15:52 | |
For Damien Hirst, | 0:15:54 | 0:15:55 | |
the show is the climax of a passion that goes back 30 years. | 0:15:55 | 0:15:59 | |
Damien, what age where you...? | 0:16:03 | 0:16:04 | |
Can you remember exactly when and where you saw Jeff's work at first? | 0:16:04 | 0:16:09 | |
Erm, I think in magazines to start with, when I was a student. | 0:16:09 | 0:16:13 | |
So early '80s, '85, and then when I saw it for real, it was in the | 0:16:13 | 0:16:18 | |
Saatchi Gallery in the New York Art Now show, | 0:16:18 | 0:16:21 | |
which was, I think, '86, '87. | 0:16:21 | 0:16:23 | |
And then, you know, my tutors didn't like it and I absolutely loved it. | 0:16:23 | 0:16:26 | |
Your tutors didn't like it? | 0:16:26 | 0:16:28 | |
Well, they were sort of behind everything and then with the New | 0:16:28 | 0:16:31 | |
York Art Now show, they just went, "That's not art," and I was, like... | 0:16:31 | 0:16:35 | |
I loved it even more because it was, like, totally punk. | 0:16:35 | 0:16:37 | |
It was against what my tutors believed and everything, | 0:16:37 | 0:16:39 | |
so it was, like... And so simple and easy. | 0:16:39 | 0:16:41 | |
And here you are and did you ever think that, actually, you would | 0:16:41 | 0:16:44 | |
end up as being one of Jeff Koon's major collectors in the world? | 0:16:44 | 0:16:48 | |
Never. You know, it's like... | 0:16:48 | 0:16:49 | |
I remember looking at the works at the time and not... | 0:16:49 | 0:16:53 | |
I mean, you could never possess anything like that, | 0:16:53 | 0:16:55 | |
but also to be in a position where you can... | 0:16:55 | 0:16:59 | |
I mean, I've got Jeff's work in my house at home and it's like, you know... | 0:16:59 | 0:17:02 | |
To think I've got a piece by the TV and I often find myself | 0:17:02 | 0:17:05 | |
not looking at the TV and then looking at the piece. | 0:17:05 | 0:17:08 | |
It kind of does more than the TV most of the time. | 0:17:08 | 0:17:11 | |
So, when were you first aware of Damien's work? | 0:17:11 | 0:17:14 | |
We were in exhibition together in Germany. | 0:17:15 | 0:17:19 | |
-This would have been around 1991, '92. -It was fairly early, wasn't it? | 0:17:20 | 0:17:24 | |
-When you did the puppy. -Yeah, yeah. | 0:17:24 | 0:17:26 | |
-A giant puppy made out of flowers. -So we spent time together. | 0:17:26 | 0:17:30 | |
Our families hung out. So Damien met my father. | 0:17:30 | 0:17:34 | |
I think your mother was there as well, wasn't she? | 0:17:34 | 0:17:36 | |
Yeah, my mum was there and I know Damien's mother. | 0:17:36 | 0:17:38 | |
So it was wonderful that we spent time together in this small | 0:17:38 | 0:17:42 | |
German little city and that's where we befriended each other. | 0:17:42 | 0:17:47 | |
And when you started collecting Jeff's work, it occurs to me | 0:17:47 | 0:17:51 | |
that you were developing as an artist as Jeff was still | 0:17:51 | 0:17:53 | |
developing as an artist. | 0:17:53 | 0:17:54 | |
Was that one of the reasons that it was someone you wanted to collect? | 0:17:54 | 0:17:57 | |
I just... I'd been selling work | 0:17:57 | 0:17:59 | |
and I had quite a lot of money coming in suddenly, | 0:17:59 | 0:18:01 | |
and I thought I could justify making this kind of money | 0:18:01 | 0:18:04 | |
if I was buying these things that I'd always loved. | 0:18:04 | 0:18:06 | |
I remember the first piece I bought from Jeff was that single | 0:18:06 | 0:18:08 | |
Hoover downstairs and I said to Larry Gagosian, | 0:18:08 | 0:18:11 | |
who has a gallery in New York, "How much is that?" | 0:18:11 | 0:18:13 | |
And he said, "It's 60,000," or something. | 0:18:13 | 0:18:15 | |
I remember I said to him, "Will it go up in value?" | 0:18:15 | 0:18:18 | |
And he went, "If you buy it for that reason, don't buy it!" | 0:18:18 | 0:18:21 | |
And I thought, "Wow! What do you mean?" Then I did buy it in the end. | 0:18:21 | 0:18:25 | |
So, Damien, tell me, you have this space, | 0:18:25 | 0:18:27 | |
you decide that you would show Jeff's work. | 0:18:27 | 0:18:30 | |
So, why was it important to put this exhibition together? | 0:18:30 | 0:18:33 | |
I always had an idea that I'd like to do a show of Jeff's work, | 0:18:33 | 0:18:36 | |
because I think... | 0:18:36 | 0:18:38 | |
In my work, I have lots of different things that I do | 0:18:38 | 0:18:41 | |
and Jeff is similar like that, so he's a difficult artist to collect. | 0:18:41 | 0:18:44 | |
You think you want one of everything and it becomes quite a commitment. | 0:18:44 | 0:18:48 | |
But I always thought I'd love to have enough | 0:18:48 | 0:18:50 | |
to do a really great show. I think I've managed. | 0:18:50 | 0:18:52 | |
There are a few pieces that I haven't got, which I never... | 0:18:52 | 0:18:55 | |
What I always wanted was one of the wooden pieces and | 0:18:55 | 0:18:58 | |
one of the ceramic pieces from one of... | 0:18:58 | 0:18:59 | |
A ceramic from Banality? | 0:18:59 | 0:19:02 | |
Yeah, I never managed to get one of those, | 0:19:02 | 0:19:03 | |
but I don't think it feels like anything is missing. | 0:19:03 | 0:19:07 | |
I didn't feel that anything was missing. | 0:19:07 | 0:19:08 | |
It feels absolutely complete from entering with the first | 0:19:08 | 0:19:12 | |
inflatable flowers to, you know, ending here with an elephant. | 0:19:12 | 0:19:17 | |
You see your life flashing before you. | 0:19:17 | 0:19:19 | |
I see a creative life and, you know, working with objects, | 0:19:19 | 0:19:23 | |
working with metaphor and what I really find important in this | 0:19:23 | 0:19:27 | |
exhibition is the friendship with Damien. | 0:19:27 | 0:19:30 | |
I mean, that is what is really meaningful to me, | 0:19:30 | 0:19:32 | |
that Damien would collect my work and just this interaction. | 0:19:32 | 0:19:37 | |
That's really what I walk away with. | 0:19:37 | 0:19:41 | |
But, in life, when we're making objects, you know, it's metaphor | 0:19:41 | 0:19:45 | |
for how we can make our lives better, how we can accept ourselves | 0:19:45 | 0:19:48 | |
more clearly and how we can go out in the world | 0:19:48 | 0:19:54 | |
and we can accept other people and we can really enrich our lives. | 0:19:54 | 0:19:59 | |
I mean, I think with Jeff's work, when he chose that great title | 0:19:59 | 0:20:02 | |
for his series of works, Celebration, which is a great title, | 0:20:02 | 0:20:05 | |
I was a bit jealous when you got that title because it's like... | 0:20:05 | 0:20:09 | |
I'm a bit more prone to darkness here and there, | 0:20:09 | 0:20:11 | |
but I think art in itself, even if you're making something negative, | 0:20:11 | 0:20:15 | |
it's a positive force. | 0:20:15 | 0:20:16 | |
It is very difficult for anyone to come in here | 0:20:16 | 0:20:18 | |
and not absolutely love it. | 0:20:18 | 0:20:20 | |
You know, it's like... | 0:20:22 | 0:20:23 | |
Whenever you see kids in a Koons exhibition, they just... Wow! | 0:20:23 | 0:20:27 | |
They're just running around loving it. | 0:20:27 | 0:20:29 | |
Right now, though, we're sitting in front of Play-Doh, | 0:20:31 | 0:20:34 | |
one of your biggest and, indeed, heaviest works that Damien has. | 0:20:34 | 0:20:38 | |
I want to spend a little time talking about that. | 0:20:38 | 0:20:40 | |
-Why did you buy this piece of work? -When I saw it, it was like... | 0:20:40 | 0:20:44 | |
It seems to be the basis of all art. | 0:20:44 | 0:20:46 | |
I've got kids myself and we've played with Play-Doh. | 0:20:46 | 0:20:48 | |
It just sort of seemed to say everything. | 0:20:48 | 0:20:50 | |
You know, I have a young son and he made a mound of Play-Doh | 0:20:50 | 0:20:55 | |
and I was looking in a different direction and he said, "Dad," | 0:20:55 | 0:20:58 | |
and I turned and I looked at him, | 0:20:58 | 0:21:01 | |
and he had the mound right here and he went, "Voila!" | 0:21:01 | 0:21:04 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:21:04 | 0:21:05 | |
That was the beginning of it, that "Voila!" | 0:21:05 | 0:21:08 | |
It reminds me of that piece in Close Encounters Of The Third Kind, | 0:21:08 | 0:21:11 | |
when he makes that thing in his living room | 0:21:11 | 0:21:13 | |
and it's, like, just a shape and he's obsessed with it. You know... | 0:21:13 | 0:21:17 | |
To make a small one, it doesn't really do anything, but then to | 0:21:17 | 0:21:20 | |
make it that size, it's like right in your face and you can't deny it. | 0:21:20 | 0:21:23 | |
It seems to me that you're a very optimistic person | 0:21:23 | 0:21:27 | |
in an often pessimistic world. | 0:21:27 | 0:21:28 | |
I think the works have a dark side, too. | 0:21:28 | 0:21:30 | |
I mean, if I look at the elephant over there, it's bright, | 0:21:30 | 0:21:34 | |
it's cheerful, but it also has some darkness to it. | 0:21:34 | 0:21:38 | |
To have a dialogue about optimism, you have to have the other side. | 0:21:38 | 0:21:42 | |
I've had arguments with people about Jeff's work | 0:21:42 | 0:21:44 | |
and I often get onto the fact that it's about death, | 0:21:44 | 0:21:47 | |
but I don't know if that's my reading of it or whatever. | 0:21:47 | 0:21:51 | |
I think another really important thing is it's about America. | 0:21:51 | 0:21:54 | |
The most amazing portrait of America. The whole of Jeff's work. | 0:21:54 | 0:21:56 | |
That's interesting because, of course, you were very much | 0:21:56 | 0:21:59 | |
schooled in the European tradition | 0:21:59 | 0:22:01 | |
and also in antiquity, but yet your work is determinedly American. | 0:22:01 | 0:22:04 | |
The things that I responded to in my life, you know, | 0:22:04 | 0:22:07 | |
I've been able to hold dear. | 0:22:07 | 0:22:10 | |
I enjoyed driving down the road - I'm from rural Pennsylvania, | 0:22:10 | 0:22:14 | |
I still have a home there. | 0:22:14 | 0:22:16 | |
I'll drive down the road and I'll see a gazing ball in a yard. | 0:22:16 | 0:22:18 | |
That's still one of the most exciting experiences. | 0:22:18 | 0:22:22 | |
My whole family will drive by and all my kids are yelling, | 0:22:22 | 0:22:25 | |
"Gazing ball! Gazing ball!" And we'll point these things out. | 0:22:25 | 0:22:30 | |
But, you know, there are wonderful things around us all the time. | 0:22:30 | 0:22:34 | |
Of course, we don't have gazing balls here | 0:22:34 | 0:22:36 | |
and it strikes me that we don't have that reflective nature. | 0:22:36 | 0:22:41 | |
I think we were all raised not to look at ourselves in many ways | 0:22:41 | 0:22:43 | |
and maybe that's a different aspect of American culture. | 0:22:43 | 0:22:46 | |
It is actually OK to celebrate yourself more than it was here. | 0:22:46 | 0:22:50 | |
I mean, for me, the gazing ball, it's a GPS system | 0:22:50 | 0:22:54 | |
and, you know, the mind is always rewarding you. | 0:22:54 | 0:22:57 | |
It always wants to know where you are within the universe. | 0:22:58 | 0:23:02 | |
And it's a heightening of the senses. | 0:23:02 | 0:23:05 | |
You look and you have the light reflecting. | 0:23:07 | 0:23:09 | |
I can feel my fingertips tingle. | 0:23:09 | 0:23:11 | |
To me, it's affirmation, it's excitement of the senses. | 0:23:11 | 0:23:15 | |
It's biology. | 0:23:15 | 0:23:16 | |
And, at the same time, it can take you into very ephemeral, | 0:23:16 | 0:23:20 | |
ethereal thought and into ideas. | 0:23:20 | 0:23:24 | |
So that's another form of the eternal. | 0:23:24 | 0:23:26 | |
You spoke earlier, though, about the fact that your work perhaps | 0:23:26 | 0:23:30 | |
seems more optimistic than Damien's. | 0:23:30 | 0:23:32 | |
You said your work seems darker and I wonder, | 0:23:32 | 0:23:35 | |
the diamond skull to me seems the ultimate dark object. | 0:23:35 | 0:23:38 | |
I don't know. | 0:23:38 | 0:23:39 | |
It's semantics, isn't it? | 0:23:39 | 0:23:41 | |
Art is always optimistic even if it is art about death or life. | 0:23:41 | 0:23:44 | |
I had Elephant on my desk and when it arrived, | 0:23:44 | 0:23:47 | |
I remember looking at it and thinking, "Oh, my God!" | 0:23:47 | 0:23:50 | |
It's got that same quality that the diamond skull has | 0:23:50 | 0:23:52 | |
and it looks totally hopeful and optimistic, shiny and bright. | 0:23:52 | 0:23:55 | |
Yet it also looks like you could pop it with a pin. | 0:23:55 | 0:23:57 | |
And I remember thinking, "My God! | 0:23:57 | 0:23:59 | |
"I wish I could make a diamond skull that you could pop with a pin." | 0:23:59 | 0:24:02 | |
That's it... | 0:24:02 | 0:24:03 | |
And also it's made of a material that, you know, | 0:24:03 | 0:24:06 | |
is lasting 6,000 years and counting. | 0:24:06 | 0:24:08 | |
The casting is like a 6,000-year-old process. So it covers everything. | 0:24:08 | 0:24:13 | |
But what do you see in each other? | 0:24:13 | 0:24:15 | |
I suppose all the artists that I love have something that I don't. | 0:24:16 | 0:24:20 | |
What I love about your work, or Jeff as well, | 0:24:20 | 0:24:23 | |
is that he's, like, contemporary. | 0:24:23 | 0:24:25 | |
He is alive today and it's like you kind of admire people from afar, | 0:24:25 | 0:24:28 | |
but it's like... | 0:24:28 | 0:24:29 | |
It's totally inspirational to see that somebody living today | 0:24:29 | 0:24:32 | |
can make art that's on a par with all those dead guys who, | 0:24:32 | 0:24:36 | |
when you were young, you look at and you think... | 0:24:36 | 0:24:39 | |
I mean, whenever I think about my work as well, | 0:24:39 | 0:24:41 | |
I know all my own problems and weaknesses and doubts. | 0:24:41 | 0:24:46 | |
You know, you go through them all to end up with good work. | 0:24:46 | 0:24:48 | |
Whereas, when I look at your work, I can't see any of it and I think... | 0:24:48 | 0:24:51 | |
I have to remind myself that you're getting this finished, | 0:24:51 | 0:24:55 | |
this beautiful, finished product. | 0:24:55 | 0:24:57 | |
-Tell him that you're doubtful sometimes! -Yeah, yeah. | 0:24:57 | 0:25:01 | |
You know, with Damien's work, | 0:25:01 | 0:25:02 | |
what I always enjoy about Damien's work is its power. | 0:25:02 | 0:25:05 | |
I mean, it's really visually... There is a strength there. | 0:25:05 | 0:25:10 | |
It's always very confrontational in its power. | 0:25:10 | 0:25:14 | |
The type of images, objects, things that are brought together | 0:25:14 | 0:25:22 | |
are extremely well thought out, constructed. | 0:25:22 | 0:25:25 | |
There is a natural quality about it that, even though there are kind of | 0:25:25 | 0:25:29 | |
desperate and different things, they really unify themselves so well. | 0:25:29 | 0:25:35 | |
It's just an amazing intellect and thought. | 0:25:35 | 0:25:38 | |
I mean, this idea of a discussion about power and control | 0:25:38 | 0:25:42 | |
and giving up control. | 0:25:42 | 0:25:45 | |
I think that it's extremely strong in Damien's work. | 0:25:45 | 0:25:48 | |
Look at the butterflies that are painted into the surface. | 0:25:48 | 0:25:54 | |
I mean, it's a profound discourse. | 0:25:54 | 0:25:56 | |
You both have attracted a lot of attention | 0:25:56 | 0:26:00 | |
because of the vast amount of money that your art achieves. | 0:26:00 | 0:26:06 | |
Do you think in a way that sometimes obscures your art? | 0:26:06 | 0:26:09 | |
I kind of think that money can obscure things, | 0:26:09 | 0:26:12 | |
especially in England. | 0:26:12 | 0:26:13 | |
I think a lot of people think artists need to be poor, | 0:26:13 | 0:26:17 | |
or that you can't have a focus of money. | 0:26:17 | 0:26:19 | |
When I did my auction and made all that money, | 0:26:19 | 0:26:21 | |
it changed everything for me. | 0:26:21 | 0:26:22 | |
It was made in such a short period of time. | 0:26:22 | 0:26:26 | |
I suddenly noticed that businessmen started taking me seriously. | 0:26:26 | 0:26:29 | |
And there are audiences everywhere and audiences change. | 0:26:29 | 0:26:32 | |
Money is a huge part of our life. | 0:26:32 | 0:26:34 | |
I've always thought it's as important as love or death. | 0:26:34 | 0:26:37 | |
Something to come to terms with, something to understand. | 0:26:37 | 0:26:40 | |
It's a key and it's something you need to respect. | 0:26:40 | 0:26:42 | |
But I definitely don't think it should be considered a dirty word. | 0:26:42 | 0:26:45 | |
And once you have made the art and someone has bought it, | 0:26:45 | 0:26:48 | |
does it matter to you that people might buy your art | 0:26:48 | 0:26:50 | |
as a commodity rather than as something they love? | 0:26:50 | 0:26:54 | |
I was always brought up to be self-reliant | 0:26:54 | 0:26:58 | |
and so, I would sell drinks on golf courses, | 0:26:58 | 0:27:03 | |
maybe the ninth hole, as a way to make money. | 0:27:03 | 0:27:06 | |
I went door to door selling gift-wrapping paper and chocolates. | 0:27:06 | 0:27:12 | |
And I enjoy the interaction with people, | 0:27:12 | 0:27:14 | |
to be part of a dialogue with people like Warhol and Dali, | 0:27:14 | 0:27:18 | |
Picabia, Picasso, you know, Manet, Leonardo. | 0:27:18 | 0:27:23 | |
Just to be in a dialogue, a group. Here, to be a group with Damien. | 0:27:23 | 0:27:28 | |
We're involved in a dialogue. | 0:27:28 | 0:27:30 | |
It's an international discourse and there are hundreds of thousands | 0:27:30 | 0:27:35 | |
of other people that we're connected to and we're having | 0:27:35 | 0:27:38 | |
a dialogue about life and talking about art and how it's changed. | 0:27:38 | 0:27:43 | |
It's changed my life. | 0:27:43 | 0:27:45 | |
It's made my life vaster than it ever would have been | 0:27:45 | 0:27:48 | |
if I didn't get involved in this dialogue. | 0:27:48 | 0:27:51 | |
And that people are supportive to that ongoing dialogue | 0:27:51 | 0:27:55 | |
hopefully is just a symbol that... contributing in some manner. | 0:27:55 | 0:28:01 | |
The Jeff Koons: Now show at the Newport Street Gallery | 0:28:05 | 0:28:08 | |
in London runs through until the 16th October and entry is free. | 0:28:08 | 0:28:12 | |
# He has come to bring you things that make you happy | 0:28:16 | 0:28:20 | |
# A gigantic puppy made of living flowers | 0:28:20 | 0:28:25 | |
# A balloon dog like a helium Brancusi | 0:28:25 | 0:28:30 | |
# And rocking Rococonary guitars | 0:28:30 | 0:28:34 | |
# Basketballs suspended in Bavaria | 0:28:34 | 0:28:38 | |
# Usher in the fat, contented pig | 0:28:38 | 0:28:43 | |
# Whose every hair is hand-carved by Italian master craftsman | 0:28:43 | 0:28:47 | |
# A porcelain Michael Jackson | 0:28:47 | 0:28:49 | |
# And a vacuum cleaner stands amongst the stars. # | 0:28:49 | 0:28:53 |