Simon Mayo's Radio 2 Book Club BBC at the Edinburgh Festivals


Simon Mayo's Radio 2 Book Club

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Transcript


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Hello, everybody. Thank you very much indeed for coming.

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It's a special Radio 2 Book Club Edinburgh exclusive.

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Everything that we have done has always been live on Radio 2

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but tonight we have three authors and we are being live streamed

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on BBC Arts.

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Let me introduce them.

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Our first author appeared on the Radio 2 Book Club

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back in May 2013 with his book This House Is Haunted.

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He is also the man responsible for the New York Times

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number one bestseller,

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The Boy In The Striped Pyjamas, ladies and gentlemen, John Boyne.

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CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

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They all like to get a little bit of applause just to

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ease their way into this whole experience.

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All of our authors have been on the Radio 2 Book Club before.

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Novelist, nonfiction writer, playwright, short-story writer,

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her debut novel was Eskimo Kissing.

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Back in October 2012

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she came on the Radio 2 Book Club with the concluding volume

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of her French trilogy, Citadel.

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Kate Mosse.

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CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

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She was also on the Radio 2 Arts Show last Friday night with me and...

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I'm stalking you!

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So we're going to be talking about pretty much the same kind of stuff.

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I'm going to say different things, though.

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OK. I'll ask the same questions, you change your answers, that's fine.

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Finally, our third guest this evening published Three Day Road in 2005.

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He was a Radio 2 Book Club author November 2013 with his third novel,

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Orenda, please welcome Joseph Boyden.

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APPLAUSE

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We haven't done one of these before.

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We are just going to talk about books for a while and then

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if there's time, we'll take some questions from you guys.

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I was just talking to John just before we came out that

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when you do events, you tend to get asked the same kind of questions.

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So let's get those out of the way first of all.

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What do you get asked all the time?

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You can answer it now and then you don't have to answer it when...

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John, what do you get asked always?

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I get asked where did I get the idea for Boy In The Striped Pyjamas?

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But I recently got asked in a school, did I see

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the film of The Boy In The Striped Pyjamas before I wrote the novel?

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LAUGHTER

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Which is one of the best questions.

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My other favourite question I ever got asked was,

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"Do you know Wayne Rooney?"

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Which is about as random as it comes.

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- And what was the answer? - No!

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No!

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Kate, what is the thing you get asked all the time?

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You can imagine the first thing is, "You're shorter than I thought

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"you were going to be."

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People always have a sense of...

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They know I'm not a supermodel, you'll be surprised to know.

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But there is always this thing that somehow they think

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I will be slightly not a short, middle-aged woman.

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They think I will be that person.

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And the other one... No, you're exactly right.

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You're always asked where you get your ideas from.

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John and I were talking about this. We were both on University Challenge

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and now that has become the most asked question for me.

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What is Jeremy Paxman like? So that is the version...

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- And what is your answer to that? - Well, he's shorter than you think.

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LAUGHTER

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Joseph, what do you get asked the most?

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Kate stole it. "Where do your ideas come from?"

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But the other thing is, "You're an Indian?"

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And I'm like... And they say, "Why do you look Italian?"

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It's... My mixture is actually Scotch blood, Irish blood

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and Ojibwe blood.

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I seem to remember that we talked a little about this.

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So you are... So give us the full list of ingredients.

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The full list! Ojibwe Indian, Irish and Scottish.

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OK.

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- It is very nice to see all... - And Canadian, of course.

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We are going to do some...

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Our authors are going to do some readings.

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It's entirely up to them which bit, a past book...

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I think we are going to get an exclusive from Kate,

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unless she changes her mind

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and chickens out and reads something from Citadel.

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Or something like that.

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Here's my question to you. Have you written anything today?

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- Yeah. Well, I've edited today... - No, that's not good enough.

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- Have you been creative today? - Well, that is creative.

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You are taking something which isn't yet ready, which is

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still in a state of flux and you are trying to make it better.

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So I did that.

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Just explain what you did then and what is the book.

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It's a new book for young people that I'm working on at the moment.

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I'm on the second draft

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so I brought a chapter with me on the plane from Dublin.

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I was just scrawling all over it, cancelling sentences,

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rewriting them so, yeah...

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That is being creative, that is writing, I think.

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Kate, have you written anything today?

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No.

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When was the last time... When was the last time you wrote a sentence?

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I am trying.

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I made a decision with my new book, which comes out in September,

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that I was going to try and enjoy the book that was about to happen

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rather than working on something new and getting in the way.

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I've discovered recently that I lose the joy of publication,

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if I'm already onto something else.

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So I made a decision this time that I was not going to start writing

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the new thing till the one that was about to go had gone

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and people had started to read it.

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So it's quite strange.

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So I prowl about the place because I get up really early

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when I'm writing and I can't break the habit.

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I get up at four o'clock and I'm like, "What am I going to do?"

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- How long since you... - Since I wrote wrote?

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Yeah, wrote wrote, yeah.

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I gave in the final version of the book...

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..in July.

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So I've written articles and I've written pieces about it

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but I haven't written anything that has come from nowhere,

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nothing from imagination in quite the same sort of way.

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And I miss it. I feel sort of a bit jittery.

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- Sounds like a drug. - Well, it kind of is. I mean...

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Towards the end, particularly, you're just...

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Well, you know too. You can't think about anything else but that.

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You live in this almost half state towards the end of a book, don't you,

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when you're getting towards the end and it's going to happen.

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And then suddenly it's gone.

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And it's still quite private before you publish.

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So only about ten people have read the new book at the moment.

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So it's still... You sort of feel like you're holding it.

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I feel quite protective of it still at the moment.

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And you've got a book out really soon as well, haven't you?

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It's that thing. So I don't really want to write

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and spoil that moment of this book about to go and do its thing.

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I feel like writing to distract myself from that, you know,

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the apprehension and the nerves about it -

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is it going to be any good, are people going to like it?

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Writing something else makes me think,

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"If everybody hates this, I'll be writing something good!"

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Joseph, have you written anything today?

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E-mails.

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No, we've all written e-mails today.

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I know...

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I wish I were sitting where Kate is because,

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second time she just stole what I was going to say!

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- We should swap! - We'll swap!

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But the same thing. I finished a book.

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I'm working on the adaptation for the book for a screenplay

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so that's not quite creative in the sense that it's brand-new stuff,

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it's a world I've already been living in my head for many years.

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But dying to start again to...

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I've got... Dying to start a new book again.

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Have you got that story in your head?

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I do. I have two, actually.

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They are fighting for which one's going to win. In terms...

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Young adult novel and adult novel. They're wrestling right now.

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They're both burbling, which is really exciting.

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How do you decide which one you're going to go with?

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The voices, the characters decide.

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When I start writing, it's very voice driven. Writing is

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what I think I do

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and it's the voice wins out and it's the one that calls me.

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Every morning it gets me up early and gets me out of bed to get going.

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When I was speaking to Kate and Patrick on Radio 2 on Friday,

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they both agreed...

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First of all they were saying there are no rules about this.

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Everyone can write in an entirely different way.

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I'm going to ask you this first so Kate can't spoil it for you.

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KATE LAUGHS

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Kate and Patrick both said

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when they're working on something they don't talk to anybody about it.

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It is secret, it's a private world and

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until it's got to a particular point of view they won't discuss it.

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Is that the same with you?

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There is one... My wife Amanda Boyden is in the audience

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and she's a novelist as well. We actually...

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I don't know if your partners are writers or not.

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Amanda and I are writers.

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We write across the table from each other, which freaks out

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other writer friends.

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- That's amazing! - They're like, "What...?"

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We are always giddily sharing the good stuff

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and then sometimes saying, "I don't think this works."

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What if one of you is tapping away and the other one is just going...

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No, this happens! It's not necessarily this idyllic thing.

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There's a lot of tension sometimes but we write...

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Is it a big table?

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It's not that big.

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And so we share with each other

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and then we try to keep it our own little secrets.

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So you are sharing specifically or vaguely?

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"I'm doing a scene in a forest." "Oh, not another one."

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Yeah...

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Very specifically and also we talk about the global...

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Amanda says, "Well, I really think

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"this character arc for this novel I'm working on is this."

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And I'm like, "I don't know." She'll... We'll do the same.

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We share a big global and then very specific.

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Would you find it more difficult to write on your own or...

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I would feel... Yeah, I would feel...

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I think I would feel a little bit wandering through the forest

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kind of thing.

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Amanda is a very good guide that way, though.

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I trust her implicitly, obviously, in terms of...

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She's steered me in a pretty good direction so far.

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I think she feels the same way for me, in terms of...

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But it's not always fun.

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She would admit it. Sometimes it's very difficult to do this.

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John, when you've got a new idea and if you're at the editing process,

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do you discuss it with...

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And since we met you've got married so congratulations.

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Can you imagine, by the way, writing opposite?

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I can't. I can't.

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That sounds absolutely terrifying.

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The only person in my room when I'm writing is the dog. But...

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I don't talk to anybody about it except, yeah,

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I got married six months ago and my now husband I would tell him

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the idea but he's an engineer so...

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He's not interested.

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He just says, "Ah, that sounds nice."

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LAUGHTER

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- Nice?! - But I don't really like...

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I don't even like talking to my publisher about it until I have

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written quite a lot of it so that I feel confident in what I'm doing.

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I found in the past that if I share an idea before I've started

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I lose enthusiasm and you don't want to go and say, "I've changed

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"my mind about that. I'm going to write something else."

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So I really just don't talk to anybody.

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My husband is a playwright and a teacher and he is a brilliant editor

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so once I've got the draft, I then share it with him.

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But I don't want to tell anything before that because

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I want to know if the book I've got in my head

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I've made real on the page.

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I fear that if I talk to him and say

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this is what I'm doing that he's then got that

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sound in his head as well so if it's not on the page,

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we're both missing it.

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But the point at which I've got chapters,

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and we write in different rooms,

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which is a good way of keeping fit, actually, up and down.

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That is really exhilarating, someone who knows you so well

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and has a really good eye and a good ear

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so running from room to room

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throwing chapter 20 and then getting chapter 19 back.

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That's really... I find that bit really wonderful.

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But then I go back into the private room again.

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It's those moments I think we as writers live for that

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when you really want to share it with your partner, "Look, read this."

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And you just wait giddily, hopefully and nervously

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for that person to say either, "Ah," or "Yeah."

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I like the early funny ones.

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LAUGHTER

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Lee Child, who is a fabulously successful writer, is coming

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on the show in a few weeks' time. Jack Reacher, that is his creation.

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People love the Jack Reacher books.

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He said on the programme a couple of years ago now...

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I'm going to take him up on this when he comes back

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because I'm still not sure I believe him.

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He says when he starts to write a book, he does no research,

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he just starts.

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He sort of knows where he's going

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and he just...goes where his head takes him.

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Again everyone does it entirely differently.

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Joseph, do you plot chapter by chapter?

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William Boyd does this so he knows exactly where he is.

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Chapter 23, that's going to be where that happens and then she's going to

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fall off the cliff and...

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I've made that bit up, that's not actually William Boyd.

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So do you know what's happening or do you just...

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None at all.

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I jump into the deep end of the pool and hope I can swim.

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Even in terms of research this latest novel is a research-heavy book

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in terms of there's a lot I had to learn.

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A lot I already knew so I always assume I know enough just to start.

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I tend to know kind of big picture kind of foggy,

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"Yeah, it's going to end up there, I hope. I think."

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But I let the voices...

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And the characters, have they come first?

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The characters come first and they are always wanting to do something.

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This is what I compare it to. It's like raising a child.

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The child is born. You have to diaper and feed it or it'll die.

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That's like my characters.

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But then they become teenagers suddenly and they're like,

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"I'm not going to listen to you, I'm going to go in this direction."

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You're like, "Good luck.

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"But I might not be able to get you out of this one

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"if you get in trouble."

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The characters kind of make their way. They grow up.

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Their voices grow up

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and start going in directions that often surprise me.

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Can you explain a little bit?

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How can they surprise you? Because they are your characters.

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They are... We as writers are lucky.

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We get away with being crazy but it's our profession.

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We get to hear voices in your head...

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Imaginary friends!

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So these characters do things.

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Every novel I've written the characters

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have done something that absolutely surprised me.

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I'm kind of like the director watching things

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unfold on the stage in front of me.

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Once in a while the actors just do things that just shock me.

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I'm like, "OK, go with it then." And they do.

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They'll either lead me down a dead end

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or they'll do something that really changes the novel in a good way.

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John, do you plot meticulously or do you go where the mood takes you?

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I'm quite like Joseph on this.

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I know nothing really other than the basic idea of what the book

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is about and I just start.

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I think I know what it's about but at the end of the first draft

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it turns out to have been about something else.

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In terms of research, I don't know what I don't know

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until I have finished that first draft.

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So I would do a lot more research after a first draft than before it.

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But I don't really like to know anything.

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I just know... If I say, "OK, it's a book about..."

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If you could sum it up in a sentence,

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this is what it's about, I'll just start.

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And start writing.

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John Irving, the American novelist, he won't start writing

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until he knows his last sentence.

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And when he gets the last sentence he works back from the last sentence

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and he gets it all in his head and then he starts.

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So, Kate, I know a little bit about your new book anyway

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because you talked to us about it on Radio 2

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but just on this specific question about knowing...

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Do you just know the general direction

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or do you plan more meticulously than that?

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I don't plan. I'm with these guys absolutely about that.

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In a funny sort of way your characters have to

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learn to act in character.

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They have to be themselves.

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There is that delicious moment in every book where

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they step out from behind you and rather than you as the author

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having your hands in the small of their back making them

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move forward, they turn round and take your hand instead.

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It sounds so pretentious but it is what happens.

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We all know when a character is just

0:16:110:16:13

a list of characteristics, that they are this tall, that...

0:16:130:16:16

They are not characters that any of us care about.

0:16:160:16:18

All of those things I agree with but I do...

0:16:180:16:21

I don't plan but the research I do very meticulously first

0:16:210:16:25

because I feel I need to know the world completely before I can

0:16:250:16:29

start to play in it.

0:16:290:16:31

That is partly because I am often writing historical,

0:16:310:16:34

significantly historical, not 1975 as opposed to 2014.

0:16:340:16:39

Because I often have women heroes as I think of them

0:16:390:16:43

because for me the hero is the protagonist of the story,

0:16:430:16:46

not someone waiting to be rescued, which I'm afraid the word heroine

0:16:460:16:49

still carries that for me.

0:16:490:16:52

It makes a difference to everything that they do so

0:16:530:16:55

if I'm writing about a young woman in 1896...

0:16:550:17:00

if I don't know what she's wearing, I don't know if she can run.

0:17:000:17:05

Can she run?

0:17:050:17:06

Is she in a corset? Has she got enough breath?

0:17:060:17:09

So everything about how she would be

0:17:090:17:11

and behave will be influenced by me knowing or not knowing that.

0:17:110:17:14

Having said that, with The Taxidermist's Daughter,

0:17:140:17:17

which is my new one,

0:17:170:17:19

it's the fastest book I've ever written.

0:17:190:17:21

And I did. I liked that idea of jumping in the pool and I had

0:17:210:17:24

a sense of certain things I needed to know and then I went for it.

0:17:240:17:29

And that was exhilarating, to write like that,

0:17:290:17:31

because Citadel I researched for four years before I sat down at my desk.

0:17:310:17:36

And this one I thought, "OK.

0:17:360:17:38

"I'm off." And the pace in a thriller matters.

0:17:380:17:42

It's all about the pace, it's all about rushing to the finish line.

0:17:420:17:46

So I can see that I'm going to write slightly differently now.

0:17:460:17:49

And you say this is the fastest book? So how fast is that?

0:17:490:17:52

Five months.

0:17:520:17:54

- Wow! - I know! I know! I know!

0:17:540:17:57

John's face is, "Oh, my God!"

0:17:570:18:00

I've never done that. This is off the back of five years...

0:18:010:18:04

- This is my dream. To do that. - This is my dream.

0:18:040:18:07

I think this is the key. I suddenly thought, "My God.

0:18:070:18:09

"I'm 52 now. If I speed up like this I could write a few more books."

0:18:090:18:13

Otherwise I'll be one of those people - I've only got a few.

0:18:130:18:17

You interviewed Anthony Horowitz or Ian Rankin, these people...

0:18:170:18:20

You look at the front of their books and you go, "Oh, my God!

0:18:200:18:23

"They are younger than me! Look at all those books!"

0:18:230:18:25

I just thought I needed to speed up.

0:18:250:18:27

They don't research... I'm speaking on behalf of them.

0:18:270:18:30

They don't research for four years before they...

0:18:300:18:32

There you are. That's the killer, isn't it?

0:18:320:18:34

Research for me...

0:18:340:18:35

When researching a book it can become procrastination like that.

0:18:350:18:39

There is a fine line between research...

0:18:390:18:42

I'm not saying you did for four years procrastinate but I certainly...

0:18:420:18:45

I love reading nonfiction, reading about the worlds

0:18:450:18:50

and learning them. But it's like...

0:18:500:18:52

There's that side of me.

0:18:520:18:53

I can't write any more when I'm reading too much. It's interesting.

0:18:530:18:57

It's that wonderful Julia Margaret Cameron phrase.

0:18:570:19:00

"And the net will find you." And that's exactly what it's like

0:19:000:19:03

with research, that there is a moment at which you have to go, "OK.

0:19:030:19:06

"Enough now." And then you go.

0:19:060:19:08

- May I ask a question? - Of course.

0:19:080:19:10

Do you all read fiction when you're writing your own fiction?

0:19:100:19:13

- Yes. - You do?

0:19:130:19:15

All the time.

0:19:150:19:16

I ask writer friends all the time and it's almost always 50-50.

0:19:160:19:19

I can't read other people's fiction

0:19:190:19:21

when I'm writing my own for fear that the voices...

0:19:210:19:25

Even if it's on a completely different subject?

0:19:250:19:27

Yes. A completely different subject.

0:19:270:19:29

I've heard some people say they can't read a first-person narrative

0:19:290:19:32

if they're writing a first-person narrative.

0:19:320:19:34

And the same with third person.

0:19:340:19:36

It's never bothered me.

0:19:360:19:37

I get lost in a world so easily I guess that

0:19:370:19:39

when I pick up a good book...

0:19:390:19:41

And then I think to myself, "How do I compare?"

0:19:410:19:46

My first novel, Three Day Road, I was writing that

0:19:460:19:48

and I finished it and someone said,

0:19:480:19:50

"Have you ever read Pat Barker?" I said, "Who's he?"

0:19:500:19:53

Thank God I hadn't read Pat Barker while I was trying...

0:19:550:19:58

cos it's a World War I novel I wrote,

0:19:580:20:00

because I would have said to myself,

0:20:000:20:03

"She's done something so incredible,

0:20:030:20:07

"why am I even bothering messing with that world?"

0:20:070:20:10

I can read fiction that I know really well,

0:20:100:20:13

so I read on a cycle all the Agatha Christie novels.

0:20:130:20:16

I've read all of the 77 of them many times, so I can do that.

0:20:160:20:20

But I think it's also about the voice that you have,

0:20:200:20:24

because it's very fragile, the voice that you have for your book.

0:20:240:20:28

Taxidermist's Daughter is set in 1912,

0:20:280:20:31

and the voice and the tone of 1912 in England is so not

0:20:310:20:36

the tone of 1915 in England,

0:20:360:20:38

because already everything to do with the war and the flexibility

0:20:380:20:42

and the way things fell apart is changing how people speak.

0:20:420:20:45

So that's the thing that I protect against -

0:20:450:20:47

the language becoming this sort of not quite as it would have been.

0:20:470:20:52

Can you...? Is it quite easy to be intimidated as an author?

0:20:520:20:57

If you're in the writing process

0:20:570:20:59

and you're not reading fiction or you are reading fiction,

0:20:590:21:01

do you ever read other people's work, John, and think,

0:21:010:21:05

"Well, that was just fantastic -

0:21:050:21:09

"I'm going to have to change what I do"?

0:21:090:21:11

No, I don't. I don't want to sound arrogant.

0:21:110:21:14

I read because I love reading. I love novels,

0:21:140:21:17

I love to read something that I fall in love with and admire,

0:21:170:21:19

and it doesn't make me feel good about myself or bad about myself

0:21:190:21:23

as a person or a writer.

0:21:230:21:25

It just makes me love literature more.

0:21:250:21:27

Maybe it makes me want to raise my game more,

0:21:280:21:30

but it would never really intimidate me or make me think I should...

0:21:300:21:34

..get another job.

0:21:350:21:38

I was just struck by what James was saying talking about Pat Barker,

0:21:380:21:40

that you go, "Wow."

0:21:400:21:42

I don't think there's any subject that we're done with.

0:21:420:21:47

You know, I've written about the First World War

0:21:470:21:50

and of course I knew there's those books,

0:21:500:21:52

that there's All Quiet On The Western Front, there's Birdsong, but so what?

0:21:520:21:56

You contribute your piece of work to it. If it matches up, it does.

0:21:560:21:59

If it doesn't, it doesn't. You do your best.

0:21:590:22:01

The only thing any of us can do is find our voice as a writer

0:22:010:22:07

and then try to be the best that we can be.

0:22:070:22:10

We're not anybody else.

0:22:100:22:11

So there's no point comparing yourself to somebody else

0:22:110:22:14

any more than there's any point comparing yourself to someone

0:22:140:22:17

who runs faster than you or is taller than you or shorter than you

0:22:170:22:20

or any of those things, because it is simply about,

0:22:200:22:23

"Can I tell the story that I want to tell to the best of my ability?"

0:22:230:22:27

It's not... For me, it's never about not reading somebody else

0:22:290:22:32

because I would be discouraged.

0:22:320:22:35

It's more that it would stop me being myself while I was being a writer.

0:22:350:22:41

I don't know if you guys all feel this,

0:22:410:22:43

but it was a great surprise to me to discover,

0:22:430:22:46

to learn this thing that the person you are as a reader is not

0:22:460:22:49

necessarily the person you are as a writer.

0:22:490:22:52

So when I started out, I enormously like very lyrical,

0:22:520:22:57

beautiful literary fiction, and I love crime.

0:22:570:23:00

When I started I thought, "Well, I'll be one of those two things,

0:23:010:23:04

"because these are the things I love."

0:23:040:23:07

When I started, I realised that oddly I was a Gothic, historical writer,

0:23:070:23:11

because oddly the person I was as a reader bore no relation

0:23:110:23:15

to the person I was as a writer.

0:23:150:23:16

That was an amazing lesson to learn.

0:23:160:23:18

Once I'd learned that, I thought, "Well, that's OK, that's fine."

0:23:180:23:22

Because actually the books I most admire

0:23:220:23:25

are the ones that I'm not capable of writing.

0:23:250:23:27

Does that ring true with you, Joseph?

0:23:270:23:29

Yeah, I think, yeah. It resonates very strongly with me.

0:23:290:23:32

It's funny...

0:23:330:23:35

When I read, when I pick up a novel, I become a critic.

0:23:360:23:40

I hate that.

0:23:400:23:42

"This person, let's see why I can turn this book down," kind of thing.

0:23:420:23:47

I don't know why that is.

0:23:470:23:49

But then a good book, within pages, grabs me and takes me in.

0:23:500:23:55

But it's the same thing.

0:23:550:23:56

My issue is reading other really...

0:23:590:24:02

engaging fiction when I'm trying to create that.

0:24:020:24:05

We'll get you to do some reading in just a moment.

0:24:050:24:07

Do you have a cut-off point?

0:24:070:24:08

Do you give a novel a certain number of pages before you give up on it?

0:24:080:24:12

My guess is everyone does.

0:24:140:24:15

- 50 pages. If I'm not in on 50. - John?

0:24:170:24:19

Not a certain number of pages, but if I'm bored and I know

0:24:220:24:25

that it's not going to get any better,

0:24:250:24:28

I feel no guilt about putting a book down.

0:24:280:24:30

There's so many books I want to read and life is short.

0:24:300:24:33

Once I know it's going nowhere, I'd stop.

0:24:330:24:36

Kate, do you have a cut-off point?

0:24:360:24:37

I've still got that awful good girl sitting in the classroom thing.

0:24:370:24:42

I've really tried to break it.

0:24:420:24:43

But the minute I start a book, I feel I have to finish it.

0:24:430:24:46

I have to see it through.

0:24:460:24:48

Well, also I suppose the thing is, we all know as writers,

0:24:480:24:52

I still think that it is a really hard thing to finish a novel

0:24:520:24:59

let alone two novels or three novels in terms of being a writer,

0:24:590:25:02

so there's always part of me that thinks, "You know what?

0:25:020:25:05

"I owe it to you to finish this, even though I'm not enjoying it

0:25:050:25:10

"and there are other novels that I could do."

0:25:100:25:12

So I do tend to...

0:25:120:25:13

I might skim a bit, but I do tend to see it through.

0:25:130:25:16

For years I had 100 pages as the cut-off point,

0:25:160:25:19

and that was only because I read The Perfect Storm,

0:25:190:25:23

and I found it difficult to get into, it was very mechanical and very dry.

0:25:230:25:28

I stopped at about 90.

0:25:280:25:30

I'd never heard of it.

0:25:300:25:31

I'd just picked it up and read it, then put it aside for a while,

0:25:310:25:36

and then suddenly it was everywhere.

0:25:360:25:38

It was in big displays in shops, it was going to be a movie.

0:25:380:25:41

I thought, "OK, it's clearly me."

0:25:410:25:43

I went back, picked it up on page 95, and it flew.

0:25:430:25:47

So I thought, "I'm going to have to..." It's completely arbitrary.

0:25:470:25:50

I had the same experience with the same book.

0:25:500:25:52

- Really? - I did, yes.

0:25:520:25:54

- The description of drowning... - Yes.

0:25:540:25:57

..that's when I was like, "Wow, this is something."

0:25:570:26:01

I haven't...

0:26:010:26:02

Just going back to Patrick Ness, who we were talking about on Friday,

0:26:020:26:06

the drowning section in Perfect Storm is extraordinary.

0:26:060:26:10

Patrick was on the Radio 2 Book Club for his latest book, which is

0:26:110:26:15

More Than This. The first five pages, the main character drowns.

0:26:150:26:20

It's the most astonishing few pages. It's a tour de force, really.

0:26:200:26:26

I find that intimidating. I read those...

0:26:260:26:29

I found the whole book intimidating, but it's just a genius piece.

0:26:290:26:34

Of course, then the character is dead and has drowned,

0:26:340:26:38

but is the main character throughout the whole book.

0:26:380:26:40

You spend the whole time trying to work out

0:26:400:26:42

precisely what's happening. I hadn't thought of the comparison,

0:26:420:26:45

but that section in Perfect Storm was extraordinary.

0:26:450:26:47

So you've got books on your laps

0:26:470:26:49

and I think we're going to get an exclusive from Kate,

0:26:490:26:53

I think we're going to get an exclusive from John.

0:26:530:26:55

I don't think we're going to get an exclusive from you,

0:26:550:26:58

but I'm not trying to diminish or talk it down in any way.

0:26:580:27:02

But how long is it going to be

0:27:020:27:03

before we get something completely new from you?

0:27:030:27:06

Eh, I always promise myself things. I want to do what Kate did.

0:27:060:27:09

I want to turn something around in a year, write a book that I'm...

0:27:090:27:13

- Five months, five months. - Five months is...

0:27:130:27:16

- I won't be able to... - Five months to write. Edit...

0:27:160:27:18

If your editors are watching this, they're going to be saying,

0:27:180:27:21

"Did you see what Kate Mosse did? Five months?

0:27:210:27:23

"How come it takes you four years?"

0:27:230:27:25

Joseph, what are you going to read for us?

0:27:250:27:28

I thought I'd just do the prologue from this novel The Orenda.

0:27:280:27:32

The Orenda, this is a Radio 2 Book Club choice.

0:27:320:27:36

Just explain a little bit about it and then read for us.

0:27:360:27:40

The Orenda is a novel that takes place in the mid-1600s

0:27:400:27:43

in what is now North America

0:27:430:27:44

and what is now specifically the southern part of Canada.

0:27:440:27:47

It's about the clash of cultures.

0:27:470:27:49

It's about French Jesuit missionaries coming to the New World to bring...

0:27:490:27:54

"New World" to bring Christianity to the savages,

0:27:540:27:57

and that clash of cultures.

0:27:570:28:00

This story's been told a couple of times,

0:28:000:28:02

but never through a native perspective.

0:28:020:28:03

I wanted to do it through a native perspective.

0:28:030:28:06

This novel is very classically structured. Three-act novel.

0:28:060:28:10

Each act has a prologue. I'm going to read the first prologue.

0:28:100:28:15

We had magic before the crows came.

0:28:150:28:18

Before the rise of the great villages they

0:28:180:28:20

so roughly carved on the shores of our inland sea and named with

0:28:200:28:24

words plucked from our tongues - Chicago, Toronto, Milwaukee, Ottawa.

0:28:240:28:30

We had our own great villages on these same great shores,

0:28:300:28:33

and we understood our magic.

0:28:330:28:35

We understood what the orenda implied.

0:28:350:28:37

But who is at fault when that recedes?

0:28:380:28:41

It's tempting to place blame,

0:28:410:28:43

though loss should never be weighed in this manner.

0:28:430:28:45

Who then to blame for what we now witness?

0:28:450:28:48

Our children cutting their bodies to pieces

0:28:480:28:50

or strangling themselves in the dark recesses of their homes,

0:28:500:28:53

or gulping your stinking drink until their bodies fail.

0:28:530:28:56

But we get ahead of ourselves.

0:28:560:28:58

This, on the surface, is a story of our past.

0:28:580:29:00

Once those crows flew over the great water from their old world

0:29:010:29:04

to perch tired and frightened in the branches of ours,

0:29:040:29:07

they saw that we had the orenda.

0:29:070:29:09

We believed. Oh, did we believe!

0:29:090:29:13

This is why the crows at first thought of us as nothing -

0:29:130:29:15

as little more than animals.

0:29:150:29:17

We lived in a physical world that frightened them

0:29:170:29:19

and hunted beasts they'd only had nightmares of,

0:29:190:29:21

and we consumed the mystery that the crows were bred to fear.

0:29:210:29:25

We breathed what they feared.

0:29:250:29:27

But they watched intently as crows are prone to do.

0:29:270:29:30

When they cawed that our magic was unclean, we laughed,

0:29:300:29:34

took little offence, even killed a few of them

0:29:340:29:36

and pulled their feathers for our hair.

0:29:360:29:38

We lived on, but that word - "unclean."

0:29:380:29:41

That word somehow like an illness, like its own magic, it began to grow.

0:29:410:29:46

Very few of us saw that coming.

0:29:460:29:48

So maybe this is a story of those few.

0:29:480:29:51

APPLAUSE

0:29:540:29:55

Listening to you read that,

0:30:020:30:03

I remember two things from when we had our conversation on the radio.

0:30:030:30:06

First of all, I remember thinking, "This guy's got a great voice

0:30:060:30:08

"and I could listen to it for a long time."

0:30:080:30:12

I also remember from reading that first page, instantly thinking,

0:30:120:30:16

"I'm not sure what you're writing about," but I was transported

0:30:160:30:21

and intrigued and needed to know more about that world.

0:30:210:30:25

How long ago did you write that?

0:30:250:30:27

That was written... Oh, boy.

0:30:270:30:30

A year and a half, two years ago.

0:30:310:30:33

- Did you write that first? - No, I wrote it last.

0:30:330:30:36

I wrote a version of it first

0:30:360:30:38

and then it was the last thing that ended up.

0:30:380:30:40

I went back to each prologue and corrected them -

0:30:400:30:43

made them into what they needed to be.

0:30:430:30:45

But I had the guts of it in that page, but I needed to work on it.

0:30:450:30:50

What was wrong with the previous prologue?

0:30:500:30:52

It wasn't sure what it wanted to say.

0:30:520:30:55

I actually had a fight with my publisher in Canada.

0:30:550:30:58

She said, "You don't need these prologues,"

0:30:580:31:00

and I was saying, "I do, I need them.

0:31:000:31:03

"I can't explain to you why, but let me work them

0:31:030:31:06

"until I think they're right."

0:31:060:31:07

That's what I did, work those until I...

0:31:070:31:10

You know, the last thing I did.

0:31:100:31:12

Kate, you have your new novel sitting on your lap.

0:31:120:31:15

Well, I do, but I'm actually going to show Joseph the crow.

0:31:150:31:18

Oh, look at that! There's the crow.

0:31:180:31:20

Cos I have a fair few crows.

0:31:200:31:22

Bizarrely, actually, cos I'm doing a speech

0:31:220:31:24

at the book festival tomorrow, I have a stuffed crow in my room.

0:31:240:31:27

I had to pick it up from reception when I arrived at the hotel.

0:31:270:31:29

They said, "Madam, we were told that there

0:31:290:31:32

"was a stuffed crow waiting for you." I wish I'd brought it now.

0:31:320:31:35

So we're in the world of taxidermists.

0:31:370:31:40

We are.

0:31:400:31:43

The novel comes out the 11th of September.

0:31:430:31:45

It's called The Taxidermist's Daughter.

0:31:450:31:47

It's set in 1912 in Sussex, where I grew up,

0:31:470:31:51

Fishbourne and Chichester in West Sussex.

0:31:510:31:54

It's inspired by two things - one,

0:31:540:31:56

an extraordinary museum of taxidermy that we used to visit

0:31:560:31:59

all the time in the '70s which had all these tiny little animals

0:31:590:32:03

all dressed up in costumes and doing things, in drinking dens,

0:32:030:32:07

playing croquet, in orchestras.

0:32:070:32:09

I was obsessed with this museum.

0:32:090:32:13

Secondly, interestingly what you were saying about drowning and storms

0:32:130:32:18

and the power of that in narrative.

0:32:180:32:20

One of my very favourite novels still of all time is Mill On The Floss.

0:32:200:32:26

I love that sense that whatever any of us does,

0:32:260:32:31

the sea and the river and the rain can just take it all away like that.

0:32:310:32:37

So these things came together.

0:32:370:32:38

So it's a thriller, it's a whodunnit and a whydunnit.

0:32:380:32:41

I'm just going to read, for the first time, so if I stumble

0:32:410:32:44

and make a hash at it, particularly after that rather beautiful...

0:32:440:32:48

you will, I hope, all forgive me

0:32:480:32:50

and realise that I will get better as September 11th approaches.

0:32:500:32:53

And like you, I have a prologue and epilogue always. I have three parts.

0:32:570:33:01

It happens over four days in this wet summer of 1912.

0:33:010:33:05

The church of St Peter and St Mary, Fishbourne Marshes, Sussex,

0:33:090:33:14

Wednesday 24th April, 1912.

0:33:140:33:18

Midnight.

0:33:180:33:20

In the graveyard of the church,

0:33:210:33:23

men gather in silence on the edge of the drowned marshes...

0:33:230:33:27

watching, waiting...

0:33:270:33:29

..for it is believed on the Eve of St Mark,

0:33:310:33:34

the ghosts of those destined to die in the coming year

0:33:340:33:37

will be seen walking into the church at the turning of the hour.

0:33:370:33:40

It is a custom that has long since fallen away

0:33:420:33:45

in most parts of Sussex, but not here.

0:33:450:33:48

Not here where the saltwater estuary leads out to the sea.

0:33:480:33:52

Not here in the old salt mill and the burnt-out remains

0:33:520:33:57

of Far Hills' Mill, its rotting timbers revealed at each low tide.

0:33:570:34:02

Here the old superstitions still hold sway.

0:34:020:34:06

Skin, blood, bone.

0:34:070:34:11

Out at sea the curlews and the gulls are calling,

0:34:130:34:16

strange and haunting night-time cries.

0:34:160:34:19

The tide is coming in fast, higher and higher, drowning the mudflats

0:34:190:34:23

and the saltings until there is nothing left

0:34:230:34:25

but the deep, shifting water.

0:34:250:34:28

The rain strikes the black umbrellas

0:34:280:34:30

and cloth caps of the farm workers and dairymen and blacksmiths,

0:34:300:34:35

dripping down between neck and collar, skin and cloth.

0:34:350:34:39

No-one speaks. The flames in the lanterns gutter and leap,

0:34:400:34:45

casting distorted shadows up and up along the flint face of the church.

0:34:450:34:49

This is no place for the living.

0:34:500:34:53

Skin, blood, bone.

0:34:530:34:57

A single black tailfeather.

0:34:580:35:01

Wow.

0:35:030:35:05

APPLAUSE

0:35:050:35:06

I'm going to need someone to walk me home tonight,

0:35:110:35:13

I'm not going home on my own after that.

0:35:130:35:15

How long ago did you write that?

0:35:170:35:18

Between February, March, April, May this year,

0:35:200:35:25

and then editing, June and July.

0:35:250:35:27

And exactly as John was saying, it changed shape.

0:35:270:35:31

The way that I always think of novels,

0:35:310:35:34

how a novel finds its form, is that you often have this wonderful moment,

0:35:340:35:39

and for me it was the end of the novel,

0:35:390:35:42

the sense of my lead character, Connie Gifford,

0:35:420:35:44

who is the character we want to know, is she a goodie or a baddie?

0:35:440:35:48

Are things going to happen to her or are things going to

0:35:480:35:50

happen because of her?

0:35:500:35:52

And I had this very clear image of this young woman

0:35:520:35:54

standing on the sea wall as the mill was being washed away

0:35:540:35:57

and the sea wall was washing away and the protagonists,

0:35:570:36:01

are they the murderers, are they not?

0:36:010:36:03

All of these things behind her, so there's the danger behind her,

0:36:030:36:07

but actually the sea is the real danger, and I worked back from that.

0:36:070:36:10

But I think always when you're writing you have that moment,

0:36:100:36:14

and for me it's like a walled garden.

0:36:140:36:16

Another favourite book, The Secret Garden,

0:36:160:36:19

I've always been very keen on this sense

0:36:190:36:20

of the enclosed space, and you could come into your novel

0:36:200:36:24

in any one of any number of doors that are around that wall.

0:36:240:36:28

So you might be finding yourself right at the end,

0:36:280:36:31

and that's your inspiration,

0:36:310:36:33

or you might come in a different door right at the beginning.

0:36:330:36:35

And until you've written your first draft, you don't

0:36:350:36:37

quite know the story you're telling.

0:36:370:36:40

So I knew it was going to start on the Eve of St Mark's,

0:36:400:36:43

I loved the idea that

0:36:430:36:44

people still believed you could sit there in a church porch -

0:36:440:36:47

even at the beginning of the 20th century people believed that -

0:36:470:36:50

and see those images of people who were to die,

0:36:500:36:53

I found that very arresting.

0:36:530:36:56

But I started there

0:36:560:36:57

and had no idea how I was going to get to the end,

0:36:570:36:59

and the 90,000 words between that prologue

0:36:590:37:01

and that epilogue were the discovery of the novel.

0:37:010:37:05

And that's why I wrote it fast, because I felt like if I didn't

0:37:050:37:08

start running I would trip over my own feet and the story would vanish.

0:37:080:37:13

So Kate has her new book, Joseph has a book on his lap,

0:37:130:37:17

you might have noticed John has an iPad.

0:37:170:37:20

I have to apologise.

0:37:200:37:22

KATE: Cos he's so modern!

0:37:220:37:23

No, I feel embarrassed, but I don't have finished copies yet.

0:37:230:37:27

That's how cool and exclusive this is.

0:37:270:37:30

Yeah, I had to get the publisher to e-mail it to me

0:37:300:37:32

today cos I didn't have it.

0:37:320:37:34

But I've never read from one of these before

0:37:340:37:36

and I don't feel good about myself.

0:37:360:37:38

It's all right, we forgive you. Explain what this is, John.

0:37:380:37:42

This is a novel that comes out on September 4th,

0:37:420:37:45

a week before Kate's, it's called A History of Loneliness.

0:37:450:37:49

It's the first novel I've set in Ireland, and this is a moment...

0:37:490:37:54

I've never read aloud from it either, so, we'll see.

0:37:540:37:59

But this is a scene quite late in the book where the narrator,

0:37:590:38:03

a priest called Father Odran Yates, is attending the trial of

0:38:030:38:07

another priest who is on trial for serial child abuse,

0:38:070:38:11

and he has left the trial because he can't hear any more.

0:38:110:38:14

A hand touched my arm and I almost jumped off my seat in fright,

0:38:160:38:20

but it was just the woman seated next to me.

0:38:200:38:22

She had a tired expression and not a hint of a smile on her face.

0:38:220:38:25

I thought she was going to say something like,

0:38:250:38:27

"Are you all right, Father?" But instead she just stared at me,

0:38:270:38:30

and I knew I recognised her

0:38:300:38:32

from somewhere, only I could not say where.

0:38:320:38:34

"You're Father Yates, aren't you?" she asked me finally.

0:38:350:38:38

"That's right", I said. "Do I know you?"

0:38:380:38:41

"You do", she said. "Do you not remember me?" I shook my head.

0:38:410:38:46

"I do and I don't, you look familiar but I can't place you."

0:38:460:38:49

"Kathleen Kilduff," she said, and I closed my eyes.

0:38:490:38:53

I thought I might be sick.

0:38:530:38:54

"Mrs Kilduff," I said meekly.

0:38:550:38:57

"We met in Wexford in 1990. You were down visiting your pal.

0:38:570:39:01

"I was the fool who was delivering her son into his hands

0:39:010:39:04

"every week for an hour."

0:39:040:39:06

I nodded. What could I say to justify myself?

0:39:060:39:09

"Of course," I said. "I remember you now."

0:39:090:39:11

"And you remember Brian too, don't you?" "I do," I said.

0:39:110:39:14

"I remember Brian." "Did you feel good about yourself,

0:39:140:39:17

"reporting him like you did?

0:39:170:39:19

"You know the gardai scared him half to death when they interviewed him

0:39:190:39:22

"about the damage he'd done to that monster's car."

0:39:220:39:26

"I'm sorry, I didn't know what to do at the time,

0:39:260:39:28

"I thought there was something wrong with the boy.

0:39:280:39:30

"I thought if Tom knew maybe he could help him."

0:39:300:39:32

"Oh, he helped him all right," she said, laughing bitterly.

0:39:320:39:35

"Sure, didn't he go to the gardai and tell them that if they just cautioned

0:39:350:39:38

"the boy he'd see to it that he never did anything like that again.

0:39:380:39:41

"And then he persuaded me to send Brian in to him

0:39:410:39:44

"Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays, three days a week,

0:39:440:39:46

"for an hour every time, and of course I did what I was told.

0:39:460:39:50

"Brian," she added, "my little lad,

0:39:500:39:52

"who never did a bit of harm to anyone in his life.

0:39:520:39:54

"He wanted to be a vet, did you know that?

0:39:540:39:56

"He had a little dog that he just adored."

0:39:560:39:59

I stared down at the floor.

0:39:590:40:02

When I told that story earlier, when I told you about 1990,

0:40:020:40:05

did I mention that I took what I had seen and reported it to the gardai?

0:40:050:40:09

"Mrs Kilduff," I said, uncertain of what I was going to say next,

0:40:090:40:13

but she interrupted me. "Don't say my name," she hissed.

0:40:130:40:16

"And get off this bench right now!

0:40:160:40:18

"I don't want you sitting anywhere near me! You disgust me!"

0:40:180:40:21

I nodded and stood up, turning to walk away,

0:40:210:40:24

but before I could, I thought I should say at least something

0:40:240:40:27

to try to atone for what I had done.

0:40:270:40:28

"I hope Brian is doing all right," I said.

0:40:300:40:32

"I hope he's found a way to cope with what happened to him."

0:40:320:40:36

She stared at me as if I was deliberately insulting her.

0:40:360:40:39

"Are you trying to hurt me?" she asks. "Is that what you're doing?

0:40:390:40:42

"Are you deliberately trying to be cruel?"

0:40:420:40:44

"No," I said, failing to understand. "I only meant..."

0:40:440:40:48

"Sure, Brian is dead these last 15 years," she told me.

0:40:480:40:51

"He hanged himself in his bedroom.

0:40:510:40:52

"I went up one day after school to fetch him down for his dinner

0:40:520:40:55

"and there he was, his little legs dancing in the air,

0:40:550:40:58

"the poor little dog staring up at him, not knowing what to do.

0:40:580:41:02

"He killed himself. So tell me now, are you proud of yourself, Father?

0:41:020:41:05

"You and your pal in there, are you proud of yourselves,

0:41:050:41:08

"of all the things you and your pals have done? Do you even care?"

0:41:080:41:11

APPLAUSE

0:41:130:41:15

John, you were saying to us just before you came on

0:41:220:41:24

that you are slightly apprehensive about how your new book

0:41:240:41:28

is going to be received in Ireland.

0:41:280:41:30

- Yeah. - Can you just explain that?

0:41:300:41:32

Yeah, I am a bit because, em,

0:41:320:41:33

anyone who is familiar with my work will know that everything I've

0:41:330:41:36

written so far really has been historically based,

0:41:360:41:40

not, I would say, controversial-type novels,

0:41:400:41:44

and I've written a lot for young people as well

0:41:440:41:46

and I've never written about Ireland, as I mentioned.

0:41:460:41:49

I was saying to you earlier, Simon, that where I grew up, in Dublin,

0:41:490:41:53

the parish priest lived next door to me on one side

0:41:530:41:55

and eight nuns lived on the other side and...

0:41:550:41:59

Irish writers have not tackled the issue of child abuse

0:41:590:42:02

and the Catholic Church, they have steered away from it,

0:42:020:42:05

and I always said I wouldn't write about Ireland

0:42:050:42:07

until I had a story to tell and I felt this was the story

0:42:070:42:11

I wanted to tell, but I mean, you know,

0:42:110:42:13

it's a difficult subject to write about,

0:42:130:42:15

it's a very emotive subject and I guess what I fear is that...

0:42:150:42:20

I wanted to write a very balanced book where...

0:42:200:42:23

..both the victims of child abuse and also those priests who did nothing...

0:42:250:42:30

You know, there are good people in the world

0:42:300:42:33

and not everybody can be tarred with the same brush.

0:42:330:42:36

..where there would be a voice for everybody.

0:42:360:42:38

So I guess what I'm apprehensive about is victims reading the book

0:42:380:42:42

and feeling I haven't been hard enough on the Church

0:42:420:42:45

and people who, in Ireland, are very devoted to the Church

0:42:450:42:48

reading it and thinking that it's just an attack

0:42:480:42:51

and if that is what comes out of it, I will feel like I've failed. So...

0:42:510:42:56

Yeah, I am nervous and apprehensive, but in some way...it's good

0:42:560:43:01

because I haven't been nervous and apprehensive about a book in a while

0:43:010:43:04

and it's not a bad feeling to have in some ways.

0:43:040:43:07

Is Father Yates the main character?

0:43:070:43:09

- I'm sorry? - Is the father...?

0:43:090:43:11

Father Yates, yes, he's the narrator of the book and he is... He is...

0:43:110:43:14

He is a good priest, he's a guy who has...

0:43:140:43:16

He's never done anything wrong... At least, this is how I started.

0:43:160:43:19

We were talking earlier about, em, you start off with one idea

0:43:190:43:23

and it become something else.

0:43:230:43:24

I started off with the idea that this was going to be a good man

0:43:240:43:27

who has never done anything wrong and has got to a point in his life,

0:43:270:43:30

in his 60s, where he feels the institution has let him down,

0:43:300:43:33

but actually, as I wrote it,

0:43:330:43:35

I realised what the character was was actually somebody who was

0:43:350:43:38

completely complicit in what was going on because he has seen it all.

0:43:380:43:42

He has watched it happen in front of him and he has done nothing.

0:43:420:43:45

And this is the main problem in Ireland,

0:43:450:43:47

with the Church and the child-abuse scandals.

0:43:470:43:50

It's that there are a lot of people who didn't actively commit a crime,

0:43:500:43:54

but who knew exactly what was going on and did nothing

0:43:540:43:58

and that goes all the way to the very top of the Church.

0:43:580:44:01

People always say, you know, the Pope was definitely...

0:44:010:44:04

Pope John Paul II, that's where it went to, you know,

0:44:040:44:07

but it also went to the very bottom of the Church, you know,

0:44:070:44:09

to the people who were just regular priests

0:44:090:44:12

and who could see what was going on and did nothing

0:44:120:44:14

and then whole generations of young people in Ireland

0:44:140:44:18

have suffered from this, so a guy who I thought was going to be

0:44:180:44:22

a narrator who you would like and who you would care about

0:44:220:44:25

actually became somebody who, by the end of it,

0:44:250:44:28

you feel is just very complicit in the actions of other people.

0:44:280:44:32

- But it's such... Sorry, Simon. - Sorry.

0:44:320:44:34

But it's just such an interesting thing with characters, isn't it?

0:44:340:44:37

You know, that... We were talking about earlier,

0:44:370:44:39

about the life being breathed into them.

0:44:390:44:41

When you suddenly discover that the person

0:44:410:44:43

who was going to be your goodie or your baddie

0:44:430:44:45

actually turns out to be weak, not evil,

0:44:450:44:49

or, em, just a little bit self-serving rather than bad

0:44:490:44:54

and that can unbalance the whole novel, so...

0:44:540:44:57

But it can also be one of

0:44:570:44:58

the most exciting things, I think, about writing,

0:44:580:45:01

when it becomes something completely different and you were asking,

0:45:010:45:04

Joseph, earlier, about how can a character surprise you,

0:45:040:45:07

but, gosh, if they don't surprise you as you're writing it,

0:45:070:45:09

you are doing something wrong, you know. They should.

0:45:090:45:11

And you might like to know that, this hasn't been announced yet,

0:45:110:45:14

Joseph's new book is going to be a Radio 2 Book Club choice

0:45:140:45:17

and John is going to be coming on the show

0:45:170:45:19

and I'll be asking him exactly the same questions

0:45:190:45:22

and he will be generous and change the answer slightly...

0:45:220:45:25

But then you'll be able to say, "So, how did it go? What's the response?"

0:45:250:45:28

And they'll be saying, "So, number one again, John?"

0:45:280:45:31

Em... I...

0:45:320:45:34

I have other questions, but I'm aware that you are

0:45:340:45:36

an informed and educated audience and you wanted to be here

0:45:360:45:39

and if you have any questions, now is the time to...

0:45:390:45:42

As long as we haven't covered it already!

0:45:420:45:45

So, you know, we have already tackled a few of the questions, I think,

0:45:450:45:49

- right at the very beginning. - I don't know Wayne Rooney.

0:45:490:45:51

LAUGHTER I'm not a supermodel.

0:45:510:45:53

Yeah, and also, Boy In The Striped Pyjamas,

0:45:550:45:57

you didn't see the film before you wrote the book?

0:45:570:45:59

No, I didn't, no.

0:45:590:46:00

There was... There was a version of Emma, wasn't there,

0:46:000:46:03

that had sort of based on,

0:46:030:46:05

you know, the film was sort of based on something

0:46:050:46:07

and they'd got it the wrong way round,

0:46:070:46:08

so it had implied that the film had come first.

0:46:080:46:11

OK, we've got a question at the back.

0:46:110:46:13

Can you say who you are, please, and then the question?

0:46:130:46:15

Hi, my name is Juliet.

0:46:150:46:17

I'm intrigued by the question about when you give up reading

0:46:170:46:20

because I used to be a professional bookseller

0:46:200:46:22

and so I had to sort of decide what I would and wouldn't continue reading.

0:46:220:46:28

Three Day Road was one of the books I continued reading,

0:46:280:46:31

thank you, Joseph.

0:46:310:46:32

So I'd actually... I really want to put you on the spot

0:46:320:46:35

and ask you what the last book you stopped reading was.

0:46:350:46:38

- Oh! - Oh!

0:46:380:46:39

Mine was Emma Donoghue's The Room,

0:46:390:46:42

which I literally left on the Eurostar, I hated it that much.

0:46:420:46:46

My guess is that you're not going to get very far with this question,

0:46:460:46:49

- but anyway... Joseph? - I will freely admit

0:46:490:46:52

it was Gone Girl. I read... I got... AUDIENCE MEMBERS SHOUT

0:46:520:46:57

I got right to the point where she disappears and I'm like,

0:46:570:47:00

"I'm not buying it." And so I put it down.

0:47:000:47:03

I'm going to go back to it.

0:47:030:47:04

AUDIENCE MEMBER: It's worth it in the end.

0:47:040:47:06

Don't! Don't say that!

0:47:060:47:08

Who else has...? Did you give up on Gone Girl?

0:47:080:47:11

I finished it. I'm a bookseller.

0:47:110:47:15

I finished it, but I hated all the characters.

0:47:150:47:17

OK, you... I just realised, of course, you need a microphone,

0:47:170:47:20

otherwise the people who are watching us on the live stream

0:47:200:47:22

are going to go, "I can't hear what you're saying!"

0:47:220:47:24

Sorry. I... I'm a bookseller.

0:47:240:47:26

I did finish Gone Girl,

0:47:260:47:29

but I hated all the characters

0:47:290:47:31

- and I wish I hadn't read it. - OK.

0:47:310:47:33

It is a phenomenally successful book, we should say. So, Gone Girl.

0:47:330:47:38

Joseph, good answer to...

0:47:380:47:39

I didn't think we'd get a straightforward answer to this.

0:47:390:47:42

- Kate Mosse? - I'm safe because I'd already said

0:47:420:47:43

that I ploughed on to the end and I do.

0:47:430:47:46

- You were always a goodie girl? - Oh, I...

0:47:460:47:49

I always thought there would be a moment where I would become cool

0:47:490:47:52

and would be a bad girl and it never...

0:47:520:47:54

I just carried on doing my homework, basically, regardless.

0:47:540:47:57

- John? - Oh, I really don't want to say.

0:47:570:48:00

There was a book I read recently, which...

0:48:000:48:02

It's not The Orenda, is it?

0:48:020:48:04

- Pardon? - It's not The Orenda, is it?

0:48:040:48:06

LAUGHTER

0:48:060:48:07

Taxidermist's Daughter?

0:48:070:48:08

..which was, you know, a highly literary book

0:48:080:48:11

that has been very successful in many award ceremonies

0:48:110:48:14

and I read it and I'm not going to name it because...

0:48:140:48:17

I just wouldn't, but I read it

0:48:170:48:19

and I just thought, "I do not get it. I do not see it."

0:48:190:48:23

I thought there was sort of an emperor's new clothes thing to it.

0:48:230:48:26

Who was the author again? KATE LAUGHS

0:48:260:48:29

I'm not going to say his/her name. So, you know... But...

0:48:290:48:33

I just didn't get it and I thought, "Is it just me?"

0:48:330:48:36

And maybe it was just me, but... No, I'm just not going to name it.

0:48:360:48:40

But it doesn't matter really, does it?

0:48:400:48:41

- I'll tell you backstage. - Yeah, exactly.

0:48:410:48:43

Yes, a fiver and I'll tell all of you and the live stream.

0:48:430:48:46

But... But in a way, that...

0:48:460:48:48

There's a wonderful book by Margaret Atwood called...

0:48:480:48:51

Is it Negotiating With The Dead or Talking With The Dead?

0:48:510:48:55

Two booksellers. Her book about writing. And it's wonderful.

0:48:550:48:58

The last chapter is...

0:48:580:49:00

It's not quite a spoof of Pilgrim's Progress, Bunyan,

0:49:000:49:04

but it's exactly that

0:49:040:49:05

and it's her talking to the little book -

0:49:050:49:07

"Now it's your time to go out into the world

0:49:070:49:09

"and I've given you your knapsack and everything on your back

0:49:090:49:11

"and some people will like you and some people won't."

0:49:110:49:14

And I think that is the joyous thing.

0:49:140:49:16

In a way, the question is always the wrong one -

0:49:160:49:18

"Do you LIKE that book or not?"

0:49:180:49:20

Does it fit you? And if it doesn't, it doesn't matter, does it?

0:49:200:49:24

You know, I... I think it's much better to just think in that way.

0:49:240:49:28

Is there a fit between us?

0:49:280:49:30

And when I'm writing, you know,

0:49:300:49:31

I feel...the book is finished by the reader

0:49:310:49:35

and the exciting bit about waiting for a book to come out

0:49:350:49:38

is that the white space that you leave as a writer, in your book,

0:49:380:49:41

is for the reader to participate in, so the minute you've got your book,

0:49:410:49:45

it sits there and it belongs equally to the reader and to the writer

0:49:450:49:49

and so it's just that, we won't all fit every reader

0:49:490:49:52

and we won't all fit every writer.

0:49:520:49:53

There is a lot of classic, great writers

0:49:530:49:55

and classic novels that, you know,

0:49:550:49:57

just haven't worked for... for you as a particular reader,

0:49:570:50:00

but you recognise that they are great writers.

0:50:000:50:02

For example, I have never been able to finish a Virginia Woolf novel,

0:50:020:50:05

but I know that's just me.

0:50:050:50:06

- I recognise that... - JOSEPH: It's not just you!

0:50:060:50:08

Well, it might not just be me!

0:50:080:50:10

But, you know, I wouldn't sit here and say Virginia Woolf is rubbish.

0:50:100:50:13

I know it's just not... She's just not a writer that I can...

0:50:130:50:17

I'd read a sentence and I don't even know what it means.

0:50:170:50:19

You know, I just... I get completely lost.

0:50:190:50:21

There always The Lighthouse, just remember.

0:50:210:50:23

I've tried a few times, I just don't get it!

0:50:230:50:26

Anyone else with a question before we run out of time?

0:50:260:50:29

Anyone got anything that they are desperate to ask?

0:50:290:50:31

Yes, gentleman there?

0:50:310:50:33

Can you say who you are first, please, sir, and then your question?

0:50:330:50:36

Yes, my name is Fred Chorlton. Em...

0:50:360:50:39

I saw Diana Rigg this afternoon and she had asked a lot of famous

0:50:390:50:45

of her compatriots and colleagues to relate their worst notices.

0:50:450:50:50

I wondered if the panel here may dare to relate theirs

0:50:500:50:56

and also what do they feel about critiques anyway.

0:50:560:50:59

OK, so, Diana Rigg has built her entire show out of terrible reviews,

0:50:590:51:04

so would you, as a nice, positive way to conclude...

0:51:040:51:08

LAUGHTER

0:51:080:51:10

So, it's a two-part question.

0:51:100:51:12

What do you think of the reviews

0:51:120:51:13

and what is the worst one you've ever had? Kate Mosse.

0:51:130:51:16

Well, em, I'm glad to say

0:51:160:51:18

that I am not somebody who learns off by heart the bad reviews

0:51:180:51:22

and actors absolutely do.

0:51:220:51:24

You know, they can quote every sort of piece of vitriol

0:51:240:51:28

that drips from a pen.

0:51:280:51:29

I stay away from reviews until my skin has grown back again

0:51:290:51:34

and I think that however successful you are or feel you are,

0:51:340:51:37

at the point a book is coming out you feel nervous and failed

0:51:370:51:41

and a bit stripped raw and so I stay away utterly from reviews

0:51:410:51:45

when a book is published because they bubble up after a while.

0:51:450:51:49

But there was one that I loved

0:51:490:51:51

but everybody else thought I should have been offended by,

0:51:510:51:54

which was when my novel Labyrinth came out in 2005.

0:51:540:51:59

It was described, I thought, in a really -

0:51:590:52:02

and it was a very positive review -

0:52:020:52:03

as that it was chick lit for girls with A levels.

0:52:030:52:06

LAUGHTER And I thought that was great!

0:52:060:52:09

But everyone was going, "God, that's really insulting."

0:52:090:52:11

So, even there, you see, you can't choose.

0:52:110:52:14

I should... I should say that an awful lot of authors

0:52:140:52:17

would just be thrilled to be reviewed, period.

0:52:170:52:19

Because so many newspapers and magazines are just giving

0:52:190:52:23

less and less space to any kind of reviews,

0:52:230:52:25

particularly if you write for children.

0:52:250:52:27

Some of them just don't bother at all, so it may well be that

0:52:270:52:30

many authors go, "I've never had any reviews, so I don't really..."

0:52:300:52:33

I know John has had plenty of reviews, so...

0:52:330:52:35

I thought you were going to say, "I know John has had

0:52:350:52:37

- "a lot of bad reviews." - No, no, no!

0:52:370:52:39

- He's ideal to...! - I kind of sidestepped.

0:52:390:52:41

So, what do you think about reviews

0:52:410:52:43

- and your worst...? - No, I've got...

0:52:430:52:44

I love this question because I have never been asked this before

0:52:440:52:47

and I think it's a really good question.

0:52:470:52:49

I've got two for you and they are both for the same book

0:52:490:52:52

and they are both for The Boy In The Striped Pyjamas

0:52:520:52:54

and the first one was, when I wrote it first and gave it to my agent,

0:52:540:52:57

because it was my first book for young people,

0:52:570:52:59

it was given to a children's agent who read it and came back

0:52:590:53:02

and said that she had been representing children's books

0:53:020:53:05

for about 30 years, had read tens of thousands of them

0:53:050:53:08

and this was, without doubt,

0:53:080:53:09

the worst book she had ever read in her life.

0:53:090:53:11

No-one will buy it, no-one will publish it and that if my agent...

0:53:110:53:15

My agent would not give it to his son

0:53:150:53:17

who was around the same age at the time.

0:53:170:53:19

So that was pretty... That was... That was good.

0:53:190:53:22

And then, before the book came out,

0:53:220:53:24

in the run-up to the publication,

0:53:240:53:26

I was very excited about that book,

0:53:260:53:28

I really thought it was going to do something for my life

0:53:280:53:31

and the week before it was published,

0:53:310:53:34

the very first review went into the Times, the UK Times,

0:53:340:53:37

and I don't remember any good lines of any good reviews

0:53:370:53:41

that have ever been there for my books,

0:53:410:53:42

but I remember this and it called it "a novel of blush-making vulgarity."

0:53:420:53:47

KATE GASPS

0:53:470:53:48

And I always thought that... There is for the paperback.

0:53:480:53:52

"A novel of blush-making vulgarity."

0:53:520:53:54

Six million copies sold, New York Times number-one bestseller

0:53:540:53:58

- and a movie. - Well, so...

0:53:580:53:59

But, you know, why not say it?

0:53:590:54:02

You know, it's a good question and...

0:54:020:54:04

Joseph, what do you think about reviews and bad ones?

0:54:040:54:06

I love them when they are good.

0:54:060:54:08

Er...

0:54:100:54:11

You've got to take them with a grain of salt.

0:54:110:54:14

I think the worst review I ever got was by a Canadian writer,

0:54:140:54:19

with my first story collection, said that I'm a great example

0:54:190:54:22

of what he was trying to coin as McCanlit, McCanadian lit, so...

0:54:220:54:28

And then I found out...

0:54:280:54:29

I was like, "Why did he think that about this book?",

0:54:290:54:31

because this was as not-that as you can possibly see, I would think,

0:54:310:54:36

but then I got to become friends with him and he, one night,

0:54:360:54:39

drunkenly admitted to me,

0:54:390:54:41

"I didn't even read your book when I reviewed it.

0:54:410:54:43

"I was under a deadline, I didn't read it."

0:54:430:54:46

- SIMON: That's terrible! - Yeah, it's terrible,

0:54:460:54:47

but you know what, I...

0:54:470:54:48

But that happens all the time, doesn't it?

0:54:480:54:50

What, you mean people review books without actually reading them?

0:54:500:54:53

It... It's not unheard of. You know, they read the beginning, middle, end.

0:54:530:54:57

Yeah. And he... He freely admitted. Cos I asked him directly. He said...

0:54:570:55:03

He used an example of a character

0:55:030:55:06

who was what's called a shape-shifter in Ojibwe,

0:55:060:55:08

somebody who can become a crow or...

0:55:080:55:11

that can change, literally, from a person into an animal

0:55:110:55:15

and he was saying that this character was a great example of...something.

0:55:150:55:20

I said, "But this character is a shape-shifter."

0:55:200:55:23

He was like, "Oh." And then he proceeded to admit.

0:55:230:55:26

No, one of the worst reviews ever was for Emily Bronte, Wuthering Heights.

0:55:260:55:33

And, of course, they had kept their identities secret

0:55:330:55:36

and it was always thought

0:55:360:55:38

that Emily Bronte lived so totally outside of the world

0:55:380:55:40

that she wouldn't actually mind about the reactions

0:55:400:55:42

and it was this heartbreaking thing

0:55:420:55:44

that when she died, some of the reviews

0:55:440:55:45

were clipped out and in her desk and they were found by her sisters.

0:55:450:55:49

But there was one,

0:55:490:55:51

when it became clear that it had been written by a woman,

0:55:510:55:53

that said that the book was so appalling,

0:55:530:55:56

I can't remember the exact thing, that if they had written it,

0:55:560:55:59

they would feel that the author should kill themselves.

0:55:590:56:01

And I feel that really is a bad review.

0:56:010:56:03

It's so bad, you should kill yourself.

0:56:030:56:06

No, you really can't go further than that.

0:56:060:56:08

- That's about as bad as it gets. - That's as bad as it gets!

0:56:080:56:11

In the good old days.

0:56:110:56:12

The good old days, back in the 19th century.

0:56:120:56:14

We are completely out of time and we're about to get replaced by the...

0:56:140:56:17

Lady Boys Of Bangkok or something like that, so...

0:56:170:56:20

Were you not asked to stay on for that?

0:56:200:56:22

Oh, yes, that's right, that's the next job, I didn't mention that.

0:56:220:56:26

Joseph Boyden, Kate Mosse, John Boyne, thank you very much indeed.

0:56:260:56:30

Thank you very much for coming.

0:56:300:56:31

Thank you very much indeed for your questions.

0:56:310:56:34

APPLAUSE

0:56:340:56:37

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