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Hello, I'm Giles Coren. Tonight on Front Row, | 0:00:02 | 0:00:03 | |
we wind the clock back to the golden age of crime fiction | 0:00:03 | 0:00:06 | |
to pay homage to the genre's grande dame, Agatha Christie. | 0:00:06 | 0:00:08 | |
Coming up on the show, there's A-list murder | 0:00:10 | 0:00:12 | |
with actor-director Kenneth Branagh and an all-star cast | 0:00:12 | 0:00:15 | |
in a new film version of Murder On The Orient Express. | 0:00:15 | 0:00:17 | |
We'll be asking whether Agatha Christie's personal life | 0:00:19 | 0:00:21 | |
was all it seemed on the surface. | 0:00:21 | 0:00:23 | |
Nikki Bedi steps into the jury box | 0:00:23 | 0:00:26 | |
as Witness For The Prosecution - Christie's classic courtroom drama | 0:00:26 | 0:00:29 | |
is given a unique staging in a famous London landmark. | 0:00:29 | 0:00:32 | |
And indie rock provocateur Father John Misty | 0:00:32 | 0:00:35 | |
will be performing live in the studio. | 0:00:35 | 0:00:37 | |
Hello, I'm Giles Coren, | 0:00:41 | 0:00:43 | |
and with me in the studio to discuss magnificent moustaches, | 0:00:43 | 0:00:46 | |
dastardly deeds, and the passion of Agatha Christie | 0:00:46 | 0:00:48 | |
are screenwriter Sarah Phelps, and Sophie Hannah, | 0:00:48 | 0:00:51 | |
the author of her own series of Hercule Poirot novels. | 0:00:51 | 0:00:54 | |
Film first. | 0:00:54 | 0:00:56 | |
Agatha Christie is the bestselling novelist of all time, | 0:00:56 | 0:00:58 | |
her books outsold only by Shakespeare and the Bible. | 0:00:58 | 0:01:01 | |
But Christie wasn't one to stay locked up in a quiet room | 0:01:01 | 0:01:04 | |
with her typewriter. Many of her novels saw their beginnings | 0:01:04 | 0:01:06 | |
in her frequent travels around the world. | 0:01:06 | 0:01:08 | |
And perhaps her most famous was inspired | 0:01:08 | 0:01:10 | |
by a particularly eventful rail journey. | 0:01:10 | 0:01:12 | |
I went to find out about the latest big-screen | 0:01:12 | 0:01:14 | |
manifestation of Christie's work. | 0:01:14 | 0:01:16 | |
These days, many of us are all too aware | 0:01:17 | 0:01:20 | |
of the frustrations of a train delay. | 0:01:20 | 0:01:22 | |
But when Agatha Christie was stranded | 0:01:22 | 0:01:24 | |
on the famous Orient Express by a violent storm in 1931, | 0:01:24 | 0:01:28 | |
her thoughts turned, quite literally, to murder. | 0:01:28 | 0:01:31 | |
Her resulting novel, Murder On The Orient Express, | 0:01:35 | 0:01:38 | |
has been adapted for the cinema for the first time in over 40 years | 0:01:38 | 0:01:41 | |
by actor and director Kenneth Branagh. | 0:01:41 | 0:01:44 | |
A passenger has died. | 0:01:44 | 0:01:46 | |
He was murdered. | 0:01:46 | 0:01:47 | |
The murderer is on the train | 0:01:48 | 0:01:50 | |
with us now. | 0:01:50 | 0:01:51 | |
And every one of you is a suspect. | 0:01:51 | 0:01:54 | |
When you were growing up, were you a Christie reader? | 0:01:54 | 0:01:57 | |
Or did you just come to it for the sake of making the film? | 0:01:57 | 0:02:00 | |
My mother decided, in her early 50s, she started working | 0:02:00 | 0:02:04 | |
in a charity shop, she'd sort of retired from full-time work, | 0:02:04 | 0:02:07 | |
and she kept bringing home the books, | 0:02:07 | 0:02:08 | |
the second-hand books that would be sort of recycled. | 0:02:08 | 0:02:11 | |
One of them was Murder On The Orient Express. | 0:02:11 | 0:02:13 | |
Agatha Christie, she seemed to unleash these primal passions | 0:02:13 | 0:02:17 | |
that were very, very engaging, if you're interested in drama. | 0:02:17 | 0:02:20 | |
You're the world-famous detective. | 0:02:20 | 0:02:22 | |
Hercule Poirot. | 0:02:22 | 0:02:24 | |
Avenger of the innocent. Is that what they call you in the papers? | 0:02:25 | 0:02:28 | |
And you are innocent? | 0:02:28 | 0:02:29 | |
HE CHUCKLES | 0:02:29 | 0:02:30 | |
You're fun. | 0:02:30 | 0:02:32 | |
We wanted to embrace Agatha Christie's universe. | 0:02:32 | 0:02:35 | |
She's a much-travelled woman. | 0:02:35 | 0:02:37 | |
She sets out spectacular landscapes. | 0:02:37 | 0:02:40 | |
We wanted to announce our entry | 0:02:40 | 0:02:41 | |
into an Agatha Christie cinematic world | 0:02:41 | 0:02:44 | |
before we go on this...this journey that we invite you to... | 0:02:44 | 0:02:47 | |
..to feel, to feel the linen, sort of hear the champagne popping, | 0:02:47 | 0:02:51 | |
and once that's established, the performances can be a little | 0:02:51 | 0:02:55 | |
more contained, and a little more unsettled. | 0:02:55 | 0:02:59 | |
-POIROT: -You know, there is something about that tangle of strangers, | 0:02:59 | 0:03:02 | |
pressed together for days with nothing in common but the need to | 0:03:02 | 0:03:05 | |
go from one place to another and never see each other again. | 0:03:05 | 0:03:08 | |
She's done something in Murder On The Orient Express | 0:03:09 | 0:03:12 | |
where she keeps alive 12, or you might argue 15 characters, | 0:03:12 | 0:03:15 | |
keeps and audience guessing about who they might be. | 0:03:15 | 0:03:18 | |
Just orchestrating that number of characters is very | 0:03:18 | 0:03:20 | |
impressive as a novelist, and then she seems to ignite something | 0:03:20 | 0:03:25 | |
that goes, I think, at least beyond mere entertainment | 0:03:25 | 0:03:28 | |
in the sense of simply a drawing room mystery. | 0:03:28 | 0:03:31 | |
The berth was occupied by Signor Foscarelli. | 0:03:31 | 0:03:34 | |
Oh, yes, sir. The Italian person. | 0:03:34 | 0:03:36 | |
Christie's butler was played in 1974 by John Gielgud, | 0:03:36 | 0:03:41 | |
and has now been revived by the similarly-revered thespian | 0:03:41 | 0:03:44 | |
Derek Jacobi. | 0:03:44 | 0:03:45 | |
Got everything? | 0:03:45 | 0:03:47 | |
Kind of you to enquire, Mr McQueen, but I do not make mistakes. | 0:03:47 | 0:03:50 | |
It's not the same kind of performance, | 0:03:52 | 0:03:54 | |
cos Ken didn't want Masterman to be posh. | 0:03:54 | 0:03:58 | |
And, now, John is, has always been very, very posh. | 0:03:58 | 0:04:02 | |
So, in that sense, I didn't follow in John's footsteps. | 0:04:02 | 0:04:05 | |
Jacobi is joined on screen by an astounding cast | 0:04:06 | 0:04:09 | |
of international A-listers, | 0:04:09 | 0:04:11 | |
every one of them a suspect, | 0:04:11 | 0:04:13 | |
including our own Olivia Colman. | 0:04:13 | 0:04:15 | |
There was one scene where Michelle Pfeiffer... | 0:04:15 | 0:04:18 | |
I don't know if you've heard of her, Michelle Pfeiffer, | 0:04:18 | 0:04:20 | |
but she was wearing a dressing gown, | 0:04:20 | 0:04:22 | |
with a turban, pinched-in waist, she just looked beautiful. | 0:04:22 | 0:04:25 | |
And I had flannelette up to the neck with a little bow. | 0:04:25 | 0:04:27 | |
And she went, "You look beautiful." | 0:04:27 | 0:04:29 | |
-And I went, "Oh, -BLEEP." | 0:04:29 | 0:04:31 | |
But the portrayal of Christie's most uniquely styled character, | 0:04:35 | 0:04:38 | |
Hercule Poirot, was left up to Branagh himself. | 0:04:38 | 0:04:42 | |
Once the moustache was arrived at, and the clothes and everything, | 0:04:42 | 0:04:45 | |
I found myself walking, leaning forward, | 0:04:45 | 0:04:47 | |
that he was a sort of bloodhound. | 0:04:47 | 0:04:49 | |
It was as if he was on the front of a car or a boat or something. | 0:04:49 | 0:04:51 | |
But at the same time, in repose, it really felt | 0:04:51 | 0:04:54 | |
as though he could watch very, very carefully what was going on | 0:04:54 | 0:04:57 | |
and we could allow for a contemplative part of him | 0:04:57 | 0:04:59 | |
that maybe didn't exist before. | 0:04:59 | 0:05:01 | |
But what about when you were directing? | 0:05:01 | 0:05:02 | |
You didn't take the moustache off, did you? | 0:05:02 | 0:05:04 | |
I... I did not, no. | 0:05:04 | 0:05:05 | |
403, take one. | 0:05:05 | 0:05:08 | |
What I used to do was, if we were doing a scene like this, | 0:05:08 | 0:05:11 | |
we might talk about, "Giles, this is brilliant, | 0:05:11 | 0:05:14 | |
"maybe you want to do this or that or da, da, da..." | 0:05:14 | 0:05:16 | |
Then I'd look in a mirror to just remind myself... | 0:05:16 | 0:05:18 | |
-BELGIAN ACCENT: -"Oh, he is there as well." | 0:05:18 | 0:05:20 | |
And now, I'd come back and be ready to do that. | 0:05:20 | 0:05:22 | |
My name is Hercule Poirot, | 0:05:23 | 0:05:24 | |
and I am probably the greatest detective in the world. | 0:05:24 | 0:05:27 | |
And what about David Suchet? | 0:05:27 | 0:05:28 | |
What about his shadow? | 0:05:28 | 0:05:30 | |
Did you have to do something to sort of exorcise that? | 0:05:30 | 0:05:34 | |
No, just simply tip your hat to a magnificent actor, | 0:05:34 | 0:05:38 | |
a wonderful, wonderful Poirot. He's just... | 0:05:38 | 0:05:40 | |
As is Finney, as is Ustinov, | 0:05:40 | 0:05:43 | |
I understand Orson Welles played it, Charles Laughton played it, | 0:05:43 | 0:05:46 | |
the very first actor to play Poirot | 0:05:46 | 0:05:48 | |
was an actor called Austin Trevor from Belfast, Northern Ireland. | 0:05:48 | 0:05:51 | |
So I felt there was a little circular work was going on, there. | 0:05:51 | 0:05:53 | |
But, no, with rich material, there is, I think, room for all. | 0:05:53 | 0:05:57 | |
The murderer is with us. | 0:05:58 | 0:06:00 | |
On the train. | 0:06:00 | 0:06:01 | |
Now. | 0:06:01 | 0:06:02 | |
We all had a really, genuinely, as you said, | 0:06:03 | 0:06:06 | |
it felt like a big, old-fashioned theatre company. | 0:06:06 | 0:06:09 | |
Yes, it really did. | 0:06:09 | 0:06:10 | |
-And a lot of that came from Ken. -Really... Yes. | 0:06:10 | 0:06:12 | |
You know, he's remarkable in that. | 0:06:12 | 0:06:16 | |
Because he keeps a wonderful atmosphere on the set. | 0:06:16 | 0:06:19 | |
An atmosphere of relaxed tension. | 0:06:19 | 0:06:23 | |
There's a suggestion towards the end of the film that | 0:06:25 | 0:06:28 | |
Kenneth Branagh's Death On The Nile may not be a million miles away. | 0:06:28 | 0:06:31 | |
You're going to have... One of the problems is | 0:06:31 | 0:06:33 | |
the only contiguous character is you, isn't it? | 0:06:33 | 0:06:35 | |
All of these wonderful actors you've just had, | 0:06:35 | 0:06:37 | |
they'll have to go in the next one. | 0:06:37 | 0:06:39 | |
Well, Judi Dench said, no, she said, "If you ever do another one, | 0:06:39 | 0:06:41 | |
"we just recast us." She said, | 0:06:41 | 0:06:43 | |
"Have it like a theatrical repertory company, and we come back," | 0:06:43 | 0:06:45 | |
she said, "I'll play a bloke in the next one, if you like. | 0:06:45 | 0:06:47 | |
What will you do when you run out of the ones in exotic locations, | 0:06:49 | 0:06:52 | |
of which there aren't many, and get to these ones which take place | 0:06:52 | 0:06:54 | |
in little country houses in the south-west? | 0:06:54 | 0:06:57 | |
There's a brilliant one amongst many, | 0:06:57 | 0:06:59 | |
The Murder Of Roger Ackroyd, which does take place | 0:06:59 | 0:07:02 | |
in the English countryside, | 0:07:02 | 0:07:05 | |
but has this sort of titanic kind of passion underneath it | 0:07:05 | 0:07:09 | |
that I think makes a point that she makes - | 0:07:09 | 0:07:11 | |
listen, you can be in the Nile, you can be in Mesopotamia, you can | 0:07:11 | 0:07:15 | |
be on the Orient Express, or you can be, as it were, in Cheam... | 0:07:15 | 0:07:20 | |
But there's no boat to take you away from yourself, and if yourself | 0:07:20 | 0:07:24 | |
is some dark and tortured character who may resort to violence, then... | 0:07:24 | 0:07:29 | |
the truth will out. | 0:07:29 | 0:07:31 | |
So, you've both seen the film. | 0:07:33 | 0:07:35 | |
How was it for you, Sarah? | 0:07:35 | 0:07:37 | |
This was the first Agatha Christie adaptation, apart from my own, | 0:07:37 | 0:07:41 | |
that I've ever seen the whole way through. | 0:07:41 | 0:07:43 | |
It's huge, it's a massive, immersive experience, | 0:07:43 | 0:07:45 | |
and mine are small screen but... | 0:07:45 | 0:07:47 | |
So it was like readjusting to a totally different thing. | 0:07:47 | 0:07:50 | |
How about you? Were you immersed in it? | 0:07:50 | 0:07:52 | |
Oh, yeah. | 0:07:52 | 0:07:54 | |
I mean, it was incredibly beautiful and luxuriant, | 0:07:54 | 0:07:57 | |
like Poirot's moustaches. | 0:07:57 | 0:07:59 | |
And it was a bit controversial in some circles, | 0:07:59 | 0:08:01 | |
some people thought it wasn't the right kind of moustache, | 0:08:01 | 0:08:04 | |
but Agatha Christie always made a point of saying | 0:08:04 | 0:08:07 | |
that Poirot's moustache was meant to be | 0:08:07 | 0:08:09 | |
over the top and really impressive | 0:08:09 | 0:08:11 | |
and not an ordinary moustache. So, I loved that. | 0:08:11 | 0:08:14 | |
And, having seen all the Poirots, | 0:08:14 | 0:08:16 | |
you know, Albert Finney and David Suchet, and Peter Ustinov, | 0:08:16 | 0:08:20 | |
and loving them all in different ways, | 0:08:20 | 0:08:22 | |
I thought Kenneth Branagh was a superb Poirot. | 0:08:22 | 0:08:24 | |
-So did I, so did I. -Absolutely wonderful. | 0:08:24 | 0:08:28 | |
He really felt like a real, proper Poirot. | 0:08:28 | 0:08:31 | |
Murder On The Orient Express is on in cinemas nationwide, | 0:08:31 | 0:08:34 | |
and a new paperback version of the novel to tie in with the film | 0:08:34 | 0:08:37 | |
has just been reissued by HarperCollins. | 0:08:37 | 0:08:39 | |
Now, Agatha Christie's novels still sell incredibly well. | 0:08:40 | 0:08:43 | |
But where does her literary reputation stand? | 0:08:43 | 0:08:46 | |
Some readers complain about what they see as her xenophobia, | 0:08:46 | 0:08:48 | |
her snobbery, her general fuddy-duddy-ness. | 0:08:48 | 0:08:51 | |
For a long time, Christie produced a book every year, | 0:08:51 | 0:08:53 | |
advertised with the slogan, "A Christie for Christmas!" | 0:08:53 | 0:08:56 | |
which doesn't exactly scream, "challenging literary masterpiece". | 0:08:56 | 0:08:59 | |
So, do her books still hold up as great mystery fiction? | 0:08:59 | 0:09:03 | |
So, Christie herself said | 0:09:03 | 0:09:05 | |
that she was just writing "entertainments". | 0:09:05 | 0:09:08 | |
Are they more than that or are they just puzzles? | 0:09:08 | 0:09:10 | |
Well, I don't think words like "only" and "just" | 0:09:10 | 0:09:14 | |
should be applied to great entertainment. | 0:09:14 | 0:09:16 | |
There's no "only" or "just" about it. | 0:09:16 | 0:09:18 | |
That is what novelists should be doing and that's what readers love. | 0:09:18 | 0:09:24 | |
The books that readers love are the ones that are really entertaining, | 0:09:24 | 0:09:27 | |
where the story is really compelling and gripping. | 0:09:27 | 0:09:31 | |
Having said that, I don't think she "only" provided | 0:09:31 | 0:09:34 | |
great entertainment, I think there are so many layers to her books | 0:09:34 | 0:09:37 | |
and the proof of this is that if you read them | 0:09:37 | 0:09:40 | |
over and over again, as I do, | 0:09:40 | 0:09:42 | |
knowing every detail of the plot, on a line-by-line level, | 0:09:42 | 0:09:46 | |
they are still witty and sparkling and clear | 0:09:46 | 0:09:49 | |
and the prose is just brilliant. | 0:09:49 | 0:09:51 | |
Is it really, though? I mean... Sarah, the prose, is it...? | 0:09:51 | 0:09:54 | |
Here's the thing. | 0:09:54 | 0:09:56 | |
Until I read And Then There Were None, which was, literally, | 0:09:56 | 0:09:59 | |
about three, nearly four years ago, | 0:09:59 | 0:10:01 | |
to adapt it for the TV, I'd never read a Christie. | 0:10:01 | 0:10:04 | |
I'd never watched one, I never read one. | 0:10:04 | 0:10:06 | |
I just thought, "This is not what I like." | 0:10:06 | 0:10:08 | |
It's not going to be, you know, | 0:10:08 | 0:10:10 | |
Colonel Mustard with a thing over here and that's over there, | 0:10:10 | 0:10:13 | |
and there's a body on the floor, but no-one really cares, | 0:10:13 | 0:10:16 | |
it's just a catalyst for some really clever plotting. | 0:10:16 | 0:10:18 | |
It's a parlour game. | 0:10:18 | 0:10:19 | |
And then I read And Then There Were None - it blew me away. | 0:10:19 | 0:10:22 | |
Its savagery. Its savagery, how remorseless it is. | 0:10:22 | 0:10:25 | |
And you can read it on one level, it is a really clever plot. | 0:10:25 | 0:10:29 | |
It's a beautiful locked-room mystery. It's a parlour game. | 0:10:29 | 0:10:32 | |
But, you can also read it as a portrait of a psychopath, | 0:10:32 | 0:10:36 | |
as a disquisition into the nature of guilt, | 0:10:36 | 0:10:38 | |
and it's actually quite subversive. | 0:10:38 | 0:10:40 | |
And I found it really rocked me how intense it was, | 0:10:40 | 0:10:43 | |
how nasty it was, how brutal it was. And I loved it. | 0:10:43 | 0:10:47 | |
Sophie, is the plotting at the expense of character? | 0:10:47 | 0:10:51 | |
I went back and read Murder On The Orient Express | 0:10:51 | 0:10:54 | |
for the purposes of watching this film, and I just saw ciphers. | 0:10:54 | 0:10:56 | |
I didn't see depth in each character. | 0:10:56 | 0:10:59 | |
No, I would strongly disagree with that. | 0:10:59 | 0:11:02 | |
So, yes, the plotting is amazing, | 0:11:02 | 0:11:05 | |
and in terms of space on the page, | 0:11:05 | 0:11:07 | |
the plotting takes up a lot of space. | 0:11:07 | 0:11:09 | |
It is very much to the fore, | 0:11:09 | 0:11:10 | |
the bone structure of the story is very prominent, | 0:11:10 | 0:11:14 | |
but the characterisation and the depth and the layers, | 0:11:14 | 0:11:18 | |
and the knowledge and wisdom about human nature, it's all there. | 0:11:18 | 0:11:22 | |
Now, the reason you might perceive the characters as ciphers, | 0:11:22 | 0:11:25 | |
at least, initially, is that the three-dimensionalness | 0:11:25 | 0:11:29 | |
cannot be apparent straightaway, | 0:11:29 | 0:11:31 | |
because the detective, whether it's Poirot or Miss Marple, | 0:11:31 | 0:11:35 | |
is encountering these people who are presenting themselves, | 0:11:35 | 0:11:38 | |
and in the case of the murderer, | 0:11:38 | 0:11:40 | |
the murderer is presenting him or herself dishonestly, | 0:11:40 | 0:11:43 | |
so as not to get caught. | 0:11:43 | 0:11:44 | |
So, it's absolutely essential and inherent to the requirements | 0:11:44 | 0:11:49 | |
of the genre that they should SEEM to be surface. | 0:11:49 | 0:11:53 | |
But... | 0:11:53 | 0:11:54 | |
And then at the end, the third dimension, | 0:11:54 | 0:11:56 | |
that's when we really know who people are. | 0:11:56 | 0:11:59 | |
I've only really read the ones where there isn't a sleuth. | 0:11:59 | 0:12:02 | |
I'm kind of interested in the ones where no-one comes along | 0:12:02 | 0:12:04 | |
and sort of parcels it up and tells you what happened. | 0:12:04 | 0:12:07 | |
I like it that there's no-one there to sort it out. | 0:12:07 | 0:12:09 | |
And I think that what she is is actually tricksy. | 0:12:09 | 0:12:12 | |
I think that she drops in tiny little clues | 0:12:12 | 0:12:14 | |
for how you can read character, what you can take from this. | 0:12:14 | 0:12:17 | |
So, if you want to, you can read it as, this is a plot, | 0:12:17 | 0:12:20 | |
it's over there, it's over there. | 0:12:20 | 0:12:22 | |
Oh, my God, that's a twist! Oh, my God, that's clever! | 0:12:22 | 0:12:24 | |
Or, if you want to, if you... You can really drop a taproot down | 0:12:24 | 0:12:28 | |
into some tiny little clue and see where that takes you. | 0:12:28 | 0:12:32 | |
I think that they're... Or maybe that's just the way I read them. | 0:12:32 | 0:12:34 | |
Maybe that's just the way my appalling mind works, | 0:12:34 | 0:12:37 | |
-but that's how I read them. -Well, you both modernise Agatha Christie | 0:12:37 | 0:12:41 | |
in your own ways. You've written new Poirot novels. | 0:12:41 | 0:12:43 | |
You've made staggeringly new reappraisals of them for the screen. | 0:12:43 | 0:12:48 | |
But what's the enduring appeal of her books? | 0:12:48 | 0:12:50 | |
Because they clearly have it, they still sell enormously. | 0:12:50 | 0:12:53 | |
Is it just a nostalgia thing? | 0:12:53 | 0:12:55 | |
The reason Agatha Christie has sold billions | 0:12:55 | 0:12:57 | |
and is still the most popular bestselling, and I believe, | 0:12:57 | 0:13:00 | |
the best, crime writer there's ever been is because, you know, | 0:13:00 | 0:13:04 | |
contrary to some of what you're saying, | 0:13:04 | 0:13:06 | |
I honestly think she was brilliant on so many levels. | 0:13:06 | 0:13:10 | |
But the sort of powerful awareness of evil | 0:13:10 | 0:13:15 | |
and how likely we all are to, | 0:13:15 | 0:13:17 | |
in some way, be harmed by evil, | 0:13:17 | 0:13:19 | |
and all those big themes, | 0:13:19 | 0:13:21 | |
and just sort of insight into the human condition, | 0:13:21 | 0:13:24 | |
-you cannot beat Agatha Christie. -I think that. | 0:13:24 | 0:13:27 | |
And I think it's about what, you know, there's always a sense of, | 0:13:27 | 0:13:30 | |
you could be sitting next to somebody who is, | 0:13:30 | 0:13:32 | |
in fact, a murderer. Or, in fact, the beast is you. | 0:13:32 | 0:13:34 | |
That's what I like about it. | 0:13:34 | 0:13:36 | |
We don't know what our own capacity is. | 0:13:36 | 0:13:38 | |
And sometimes when you're reading her, you know, | 0:13:38 | 0:13:40 | |
again this might be just me and my appalling mind, | 0:13:40 | 0:13:42 | |
but I think that she seems to be suggesting | 0:13:42 | 0:13:44 | |
that murder's actually quite a good idea sometimes? | 0:13:44 | 0:13:47 | |
-Well... -Which really intrigues me, and... | 0:13:47 | 0:13:50 | |
The whole thing about nostalgia, | 0:13:50 | 0:13:52 | |
we like to think about, oh, this safe little past, | 0:13:52 | 0:13:55 | |
and how nice it all is. It's full of blood and tumult! | 0:13:55 | 0:13:58 | |
But I also think one of the things that people love about it | 0:13:58 | 0:14:01 | |
is not the murder, or even the mystery, | 0:14:01 | 0:14:03 | |
they like watching people lie. | 0:14:03 | 0:14:05 | |
And if you want more Christie, then Sarah's latest adaptation, | 0:14:05 | 0:14:08 | |
this time of the thriller Ordeal By Innocence, | 0:14:08 | 0:14:11 | |
starring Bill Nighy and Anna Chancellor, | 0:14:11 | 0:14:13 | |
will be shown on BBC One later this year. | 0:14:13 | 0:14:16 | |
Next, theatre. | 0:14:16 | 0:14:18 | |
Now, if I asked you to name an Agatha Christie play, | 0:14:18 | 0:14:21 | |
-you would almost certainly say... CREW: -The Mousetrap! | 0:14:21 | 0:14:24 | |
Exactly. Which has been running in London's West End for over 700 years | 0:14:24 | 0:14:28 | |
and sets new box-office records every day. | 0:14:28 | 0:14:31 | |
But it was actually her courtroom drama, | 0:14:31 | 0:14:32 | |
Witness For The Prosecution that first made her | 0:14:32 | 0:14:35 | |
a star of the theatre when it opened to rave reviews in 1953 | 0:14:35 | 0:14:38 | |
and it remained Christie's proudest achievement as a dramatist. | 0:14:38 | 0:14:41 | |
64 years later, a new production of Witness For The Prosecution | 0:14:41 | 0:14:45 | |
has opened on London's Southbank. | 0:14:45 | 0:14:47 | |
But will this play, set in the 1950s, | 0:14:47 | 0:14:49 | |
have the same appeal to a modern audience? | 0:14:49 | 0:14:51 | |
We sent Nikki Bedi to get the verdict. | 0:14:51 | 0:14:54 | |
I put it to you, as they say in courtroom dramas, | 0:14:58 | 0:15:01 | |
that a lot of the appeal for Agatha Christie today | 0:15:01 | 0:15:04 | |
lies in nostalgia, | 0:15:04 | 0:15:06 | |
in our fondness for a time long gone by and if that's the case, | 0:15:06 | 0:15:09 | |
then this new production of Witness For The Prosecution | 0:15:09 | 0:15:12 | |
is off to a flying start because it's taking place here | 0:15:12 | 0:15:15 | |
in this magnificent building, County Hall in London, | 0:15:15 | 0:15:18 | |
which doubles for the Old Bailey | 0:15:18 | 0:15:20 | |
where much of the play's action takes place. | 0:15:20 | 0:15:22 | |
Wow! | 0:15:29 | 0:15:30 | |
It's hard not to be impressed | 0:15:30 | 0:15:32 | |
when you come through these doors as we, the audience, | 0:15:32 | 0:15:36 | |
take our seats in the actual courtroom, | 0:15:36 | 0:15:38 | |
or, even better, a place in the jury | 0:15:38 | 0:15:41 | |
and you can do that if you pay a bit more for the privilege. | 0:15:41 | 0:15:45 | |
-GAVEL BANGS -All rise. | 0:15:46 | 0:15:47 | |
Without giving too much away, | 0:15:47 | 0:15:49 | |
this is the story of the trial of Leonard Vole, | 0:15:49 | 0:15:52 | |
a young man accused of murdering a wealthy older woman | 0:15:52 | 0:15:56 | |
who faces the death penalty if found guilty. | 0:15:56 | 0:15:59 | |
So will you both, first of all, tell me who you are | 0:16:00 | 0:16:03 | |
and which characters you play? | 0:16:03 | 0:16:04 | |
I'm playing Romaine Vole who is Leonard Vole's wife. | 0:16:04 | 0:16:08 | |
She's the only person who can supply an alibi as to where | 0:16:08 | 0:16:12 | |
he was the night of the murder. | 0:16:12 | 0:16:14 | |
I play Leonard Vole who has allegedly murdered an older lady. | 0:16:15 | 0:16:18 | |
-Ooh! -We will see. | 0:16:18 | 0:16:21 | |
Perhaps your memory as to other parts of your story | 0:16:22 | 0:16:24 | |
is equally untrustworthy. | 0:16:24 | 0:16:25 | |
You originally told the police that the blood on the jacket | 0:16:25 | 0:16:28 | |
came from a cut caused by a slip when carving ham. | 0:16:28 | 0:16:31 | |
-I said so, yes, but it was not true. -More lies. Why did you lie? | 0:16:31 | 0:16:35 | |
I said what Leonard told me to say. | 0:16:35 | 0:16:37 | |
The truth... The truth is that | 0:16:37 | 0:16:38 | |
Leonard cut himself with the knife to make it seem the blood was his. | 0:16:38 | 0:16:42 | |
-I did not. I didn't. -Be quiet. | 0:16:42 | 0:16:44 | |
And does it feel any different for you | 0:16:44 | 0:16:46 | |
as the character of Leonard when you're in the courtroom? | 0:16:46 | 0:16:49 | |
Do you think, as an actor, it lends something more? | 0:16:49 | 0:16:52 | |
It definitely helps us out because it's such a imposing space | 0:16:52 | 0:16:56 | |
that it's difficult not to feel intimidated | 0:16:56 | 0:17:00 | |
when the lights are on you, you've got the judge looking down at you. | 0:17:00 | 0:17:02 | |
You're very close to the audience - is that ever off-putting? | 0:17:02 | 0:17:06 | |
We're lucky in the sense that the audience here are so close, | 0:17:06 | 0:17:09 | |
so much closer than they would be in a West End theatre | 0:17:09 | 0:17:11 | |
and they can see a lot of things that are going on with the actors. | 0:17:11 | 0:17:14 | |
The question the jury must ask themselves is were you lying then... | 0:17:14 | 0:17:18 | |
SHOUTING: ..or are you lying now?! | 0:17:18 | 0:17:20 | |
I was afraid of Leonard. | 0:17:21 | 0:17:24 | |
Witness For The Prosecution has been adapted many times over the years, | 0:17:25 | 0:17:30 | |
but probably the most famous version is Billy Wilder's 1957 film | 0:17:30 | 0:17:35 | |
starring Charles Laughton and Marlene Dietrich. | 0:17:35 | 0:17:38 | |
And when the police questioned you about this wretched man | 0:17:39 | 0:17:42 | |
who believes himself married and loved, you told them? | 0:17:42 | 0:17:45 | |
I told them what Leonard wanted me to say. | 0:17:45 | 0:17:47 | |
You told them that he was at home with you at 25 minutes past nine | 0:17:47 | 0:17:51 | |
and now you say that that was a lie. | 0:17:51 | 0:17:53 | |
Yes, a lie. | 0:17:53 | 0:17:55 | |
-So what's this latest production based on? -We're doing the play. | 0:17:55 | 0:18:00 | |
There's no adaptation. So we're trying to remain absolutely faithful | 0:18:00 | 0:18:03 | |
to the play that Agatha wrote in the '50s, | 0:18:03 | 0:18:05 | |
which is to be celebrated in some ways | 0:18:05 | 0:18:07 | |
because, I think, so much of her work has been adapted. | 0:18:07 | 0:18:10 | |
Did you have to think about updating it in any way or is it | 0:18:10 | 0:18:13 | |
exactly as it was meant to be? | 0:18:13 | 0:18:15 | |
No, we really placed it in the '50s. | 0:18:15 | 0:18:17 | |
I mean, she originally wrote it in the '30s, late '20s, early '30s. | 0:18:17 | 0:18:20 | |
-Late '20s, yeah. -So she has herself updated it | 0:18:20 | 0:18:23 | |
and has clearly felt that the subject matter was still resonant, | 0:18:23 | 0:18:26 | |
just as we have found by doing it today - | 0:18:26 | 0:18:28 | |
it is still resonant, we're still fascinated by these issues of guilt, | 0:18:28 | 0:18:33 | |
innocence, and our own subjectivity. | 0:18:33 | 0:18:35 | |
And there's a twist, isn't there? | 0:18:35 | 0:18:38 | |
Yes, there's not just one. There's one, two, three, four. | 0:18:38 | 0:18:42 | |
I think there's four twists. | 0:18:42 | 0:18:43 | |
And now everyone's going to be trying to second-guess the play | 0:18:43 | 0:18:46 | |
by thinking, "Oh, this..." By trying to look for the next twist, | 0:18:46 | 0:18:49 | |
but I promise you, you won't get there. | 0:18:49 | 0:18:51 | |
So I have been given the privilege and the opportunity to be | 0:18:51 | 0:18:55 | |
part of the jury and, apparently, they actually swear you in. | 0:18:55 | 0:18:58 | |
I swear by Almighty God that I will faithfully try the defendant | 0:19:00 | 0:19:04 | |
and give a true verdict according to the evidence. | 0:19:04 | 0:19:07 | |
-Thank you. -Thank you. | 0:19:07 | 0:19:09 | |
My Lord, members of the jury, I cannot say that this young man, | 0:19:10 | 0:19:14 | |
the prisoner Leonard Vole, has no case to answer. There is a case. | 0:19:14 | 0:19:17 | |
You feel absolutely like you are part of the jury. | 0:19:17 | 0:19:22 | |
The judge turns round and locks eyes with you. | 0:19:22 | 0:19:26 | |
I felt that I was truly responsible for that man's life. | 0:19:26 | 0:19:32 | |
Will the foreman of the jury please stand? | 0:19:32 | 0:19:34 | |
-Members of the jury, are you all agreed upon a verdict? -We are. | 0:19:35 | 0:19:40 | |
And do you find the prisoner, Leonard Vole, guilty or not guilty? | 0:19:40 | 0:19:45 | |
I don't know what to say. | 0:19:50 | 0:19:51 | |
Agatha Christie's biographer Janet Morgan has joined us | 0:19:51 | 0:19:53 | |
in the meantime and we'll be speaking to her in a second, | 0:19:53 | 0:19:56 | |
but first, Sophie, how was that production for you? | 0:19:56 | 0:19:59 | |
-Being in County Hall, how did it feel? -Oh, it was amazing, | 0:19:59 | 0:20:05 | |
and the play is brilliant. | 0:20:05 | 0:20:07 | |
Agatha Christie adapted it slightly from her original short story | 0:20:07 | 0:20:11 | |
and I personally prefer the play version to the short story version. | 0:20:11 | 0:20:15 | |
I think she does something, without giving any spoilers, | 0:20:15 | 0:20:18 | |
she does something to the story that makes it even better | 0:20:18 | 0:20:21 | |
and it is an amazing play. It's just brilliant. | 0:20:21 | 0:20:25 | |
And why does she adapt so well for theatre? | 0:20:25 | 0:20:28 | |
I mean, there she's adapting herself, but why is it? | 0:20:28 | 0:20:30 | |
I don't know, because I adapted the short story | 0:20:30 | 0:20:32 | |
for when I did Witness For The Prosecution. | 0:20:32 | 0:20:35 | |
I preferred the short story, so later on | 0:20:35 | 0:20:36 | |
me and Sophie are going to have a fight about that. | 0:20:36 | 0:20:38 | |
I found it richer and more suggestive | 0:20:38 | 0:20:41 | |
and more provocative than I found the play when I read it, | 0:20:41 | 0:20:44 | |
but I've only read the play rather than seen it. | 0:20:44 | 0:20:46 | |
We'll take it outside later. There may be blood on the floor. | 0:20:46 | 0:20:48 | |
There's going to be blood. We're going to fight. | 0:20:48 | 0:20:50 | |
Witness For The Prosecution is on | 0:20:50 | 0:20:52 | |
at London's County Hall until March 2018. | 0:20:52 | 0:20:54 | |
Now, Agatha Christie has often been criticised for writing rather | 0:20:54 | 0:20:59 | |
cliched female characters, dim-witted maids | 0:20:59 | 0:21:01 | |
and secretaries, mysterious countesses and ditzy flappers, | 0:21:01 | 0:21:05 | |
but she also created witty, perceptive female detectives | 0:21:05 | 0:21:07 | |
who not only kept up with the boys but often outran them. | 0:21:07 | 0:21:11 | |
This mirrored Christie's own unconventional life and personality. | 0:21:11 | 0:21:14 | |
Despite holding traditional views on marriage and family, | 0:21:14 | 0:21:17 | |
she was fiercely independent. | 0:21:17 | 0:21:18 | |
We're joined by her biographer Janet Morgan. Hello, Janet. | 0:21:18 | 0:21:22 | |
-Now, we have this impression... -It's wrong. -It's wrong, is it? | 0:21:22 | 0:21:27 | |
What's wrong with it? | 0:21:27 | 0:21:29 | |
She's not just a quaint little old lady bashing away | 0:21:29 | 0:21:31 | |
at her typewriter in Torquay? | 0:21:31 | 0:21:33 | |
It's putting her into a sort of collective | 0:21:33 | 0:21:35 | |
group of women like that, of that era. | 0:21:35 | 0:21:38 | |
There's a terrific photograph of her roller-skating on the pier | 0:21:38 | 0:21:42 | |
in Torquay wearing a hat with feathers and long skirts | 0:21:42 | 0:21:45 | |
and with a whole lot of other girls wearing the same sort of clothes. | 0:21:45 | 0:21:49 | |
When she... But underneath that carapace | 0:21:49 | 0:21:52 | |
was somebody who was spirited - | 0:21:52 | 0:21:55 | |
the granddaughter of two really fierce, forceful grandmothers | 0:21:55 | 0:21:59 | |
and their witty, amusing, determined friends, | 0:21:59 | 0:22:03 | |
a mother who took Agatha up in the first aeroplane flight that | 0:22:03 | 0:22:06 | |
was available in Torquay. | 0:22:06 | 0:22:08 | |
Although money was a bit scarce, Agatha had a childhood | 0:22:08 | 0:22:12 | |
when, as she said, you did what you like. She read what she wanted. | 0:22:12 | 0:22:15 | |
She developed a profession at which she stuck | 0:22:15 | 0:22:20 | |
and when there were opportunities, like the surfing, | 0:22:20 | 0:22:23 | |
she always adored sea bathing, when she... | 0:22:23 | 0:22:25 | |
-Surfing? Tell me... When you say surfing... -She was standing up. | 0:22:25 | 0:22:29 | |
-No?! -It says somewhere she was the first woman to surf standing up. | 0:22:29 | 0:22:31 | |
How on earth does one know that? Surely, there must have been... | 0:22:31 | 0:22:34 | |
She was the first woman to say, "Surfers do it standing up." | 0:22:34 | 0:22:36 | |
-She was in a position to... -She's the first woman we know | 0:22:36 | 0:22:39 | |
who surfed standing up called Agatha Christie. | 0:22:39 | 0:22:41 | |
But she still thought that a woman's place was in the home, didn't she? | 0:22:41 | 0:22:44 | |
I don't think she did. | 0:22:44 | 0:22:45 | |
She said when she married her second husband, the archaeologist, | 0:22:45 | 0:22:49 | |
15 years younger than herself, that she'd be like a faithful dog, | 0:22:49 | 0:22:55 | |
because she loved dogs, but she would not be a dog on a lead. | 0:22:55 | 0:22:58 | |
And then there's this exhibition of letters that's on at her former home | 0:22:58 | 0:23:02 | |
-in South Devon. -In Greenway. -What do we learn from these letters? | 0:23:02 | 0:23:06 | |
Well, many of the letters, I have some here... | 0:23:06 | 0:23:09 | |
Many of the letters are the sort of letters that perhaps not you, | 0:23:09 | 0:23:12 | |
but authors like me often feel like writing to their publisher. | 0:23:12 | 0:23:16 | |
In fact, I rather overdid that in this book. | 0:23:16 | 0:23:18 | |
"Authors don't just seem to matter and get pushed around. | 0:23:18 | 0:23:21 | |
"My new book here at the stationer's window. | 0:23:21 | 0:23:24 | |
"I have no book sent to me, never been told the date of publication." | 0:23:24 | 0:23:27 | |
Arguments about the cover... | 0:23:27 | 0:23:29 | |
"..Writing a very angry letter to my agent. | 0:23:29 | 0:23:32 | |
"I do think you're treating your authors disgracefully." | 0:23:32 | 0:23:35 | |
Now, of course, she was extremely valuable to her publisher | 0:23:35 | 0:23:39 | |
and remains so, but this was a personal effusion. | 0:23:39 | 0:23:44 | |
She minded enormously. | 0:23:44 | 0:23:46 | |
But this is also fascinating at a time when, still, | 0:23:46 | 0:23:49 | |
she was encouraged by her family to publish anonymously to begin with, | 0:23:49 | 0:23:52 | |
when women novelists where a relative rarity, that she | 0:23:52 | 0:23:55 | |
was that vociferous with her publishers and that demanding. | 0:23:55 | 0:23:58 | |
Do you think that sort of attitude feeds into her female characters? | 0:23:58 | 0:24:02 | |
To be perfectly honest, | 0:24:02 | 0:24:03 | |
before I actually read one of these books, I would've said, | 0:24:03 | 0:24:06 | |
"Oh, it's ditsy and dumb and dim-witted," but you read it | 0:24:06 | 0:24:10 | |
and in And Then There Were None, Vera Claythorne is an absolutely | 0:24:10 | 0:24:13 | |
cold-as-ice child murderer. | 0:24:13 | 0:24:15 | |
You get totally drawn into her perspective and totally drawn | 0:24:15 | 0:24:18 | |
into her world and totally drawn into the fact that she doesn't | 0:24:18 | 0:24:21 | |
actually really mind about the fact that she's killed a kid. | 0:24:21 | 0:24:25 | |
What she minds is that she's been caught, | 0:24:25 | 0:24:27 | |
that she's going to have to face the music. | 0:24:27 | 0:24:29 | |
Sophie, what about the female detectives? How do they strike you? | 0:24:29 | 0:24:34 | |
Well, I mean, I think it's a bit weird that we're talking | 0:24:34 | 0:24:37 | |
about her female characters. | 0:24:37 | 0:24:38 | |
You know, I think she wrote women characters | 0:24:38 | 0:24:42 | |
just as if they were people, as they are, so anything I would say about | 0:24:42 | 0:24:47 | |
her female characters, I'd say about her male characters as well. | 0:24:47 | 0:24:50 | |
I think she wrote brilliant, multi-dimensional characters | 0:24:50 | 0:24:54 | |
who were capable of great evil, | 0:24:54 | 0:24:56 | |
great self-deception, also great acts of kindness. | 0:24:56 | 0:24:59 | |
-She just wrote human characters. -And what about Miss Marple? | 0:24:59 | 0:25:04 | |
Miss Marple is a genius creation. | 0:25:04 | 0:25:07 | |
She appears to be this little sweet old lady, | 0:25:07 | 0:25:10 | |
but she's actually quite misanthropic. | 0:25:10 | 0:25:13 | |
She has no illusions about people and what they're capable of | 0:25:13 | 0:25:16 | |
and she has many conversations with her old lady friends where they | 0:25:16 | 0:25:19 | |
say things like, "Oh, Jane, you do tend to think the worst of people." | 0:25:19 | 0:25:23 | |
And she goes, "Yes, well, the worst is usually true, dear." | 0:25:23 | 0:25:26 | |
So she's absolutely clear... | 0:25:26 | 0:25:28 | |
Is she the closest thing to an Agatha Christie consciousness | 0:25:28 | 0:25:30 | |
inside the novels? | 0:25:30 | 0:25:32 | |
Yes, but I don't think she saw herself | 0:25:32 | 0:25:34 | |
as manifesting herself in that way through the characters. | 0:25:34 | 0:25:37 | |
Her plots are puzzles and here are these people who, yes, | 0:25:37 | 0:25:41 | |
absolutely...she believed in evil, did Agatha Christie, | 0:25:41 | 0:25:46 | |
as does Miss Marple. | 0:25:46 | 0:25:47 | |
There is evil, and good can then come in | 0:25:47 | 0:25:50 | |
and fortunately put everything straight again. | 0:25:50 | 0:25:53 | |
-Let's hope. -Thank heavens for that. | 0:25:53 | 0:25:54 | |
Agatha Christie's personal letters to her longstanding publisher | 0:25:54 | 0:25:57 | |
Billy Collins are now on permanent display at Christie's former home | 0:25:57 | 0:26:00 | |
Greenway in Devon and Janet Morgan's biography of Agatha Christie | 0:26:00 | 0:26:03 | |
has recently been reissued by HarperCollins. | 0:26:03 | 0:26:06 | |
That's it for our current series of Front Row, | 0:26:06 | 0:26:08 | |
but we're back with a Turner Prize special on 2nd December. | 0:26:08 | 0:26:10 | |
Thank you to my guests | 0:26:10 | 0:26:12 | |
Sophie Hannah, Sarah Phelps, and Janet Morgan. | 0:26:12 | 0:26:14 | |
If you want information and details about anything | 0:26:14 | 0:26:16 | |
we've been talking about, do head to our website | 0:26:16 | 0:26:18 | |
and of course there's arts, news, and reviews | 0:26:18 | 0:26:20 | |
every weeknight on Radio 4's Front Row at 7.15. | 0:26:20 | 0:26:23 | |
I leave you with Father John Misty performing | 0:26:23 | 0:26:26 | |
When The God Of Love Returns There'll Be Hell to Pay | 0:26:26 | 0:26:28 | |
from his latest album Pure Comedy. | 0:26:28 | 0:26:31 | |
Good night. | 0:26:31 | 0:26:32 | |
# When the god of love returns | 0:26:44 | 0:26:48 | |
# There'll be hell to pay | 0:26:50 | 0:26:54 | |
# And though the world may be out of excuses | 0:26:56 | 0:27:01 | |
# I know just what I would say | 0:27:01 | 0:27:04 | |
# Let the seven trumpets sound | 0:27:07 | 0:27:12 | |
# As a locust sky grows dark | 0:27:13 | 0:27:17 | |
# But first let's take you on a quick tour | 0:27:20 | 0:27:24 | |
# Of your creation's handiwork | 0:27:24 | 0:27:28 | |
# Barely got through the prisons and stores | 0:27:34 | 0:27:38 | |
# And the pale horse looks a little sick | 0:27:40 | 0:27:44 | |
# Says, Jesus, you didn't leave a whole lot for me | 0:27:47 | 0:27:50 | |
# If this isn't hell already then tell me what the hell is? | 0:27:50 | 0:27:55 | |
# Oh, and we say it's just human | 0:28:01 | 0:28:08 | |
# Human nature | 0:28:08 | 0:28:13 | |
# This is place is savage and unjust | 0:28:13 | 0:28:17 | |
# We crawled out of the darkness | 0:28:21 | 0:28:26 | |
# And endured your impatience | 0:28:26 | 0:28:30 | |
# We're more than willing to adjust | 0:28:30 | 0:28:34 | |
# And now you've got the gall to judge us | 0:28:36 | 0:28:43 | |
# We just want light in the dark | 0:28:57 | 0:29:02 | |
# And some warmth in the cold | 0:29:04 | 0:29:07 | |
# And to make something out of nothing | 0:29:10 | 0:29:16 | |
# Sounds like someone else I know. # | 0:29:17 | 0:29:21 |