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JEREMY ISAACS: 'Maya Angelou, | 0:00:42 | 0:00:44 | |
'in your life you've been all sorts of things - | 0:00:44 | 0:00:46 | |
'cook, a conductorette on a tram car, | 0:00:46 | 0:00:49 | |
'a madam, a prostitute, a dancer, a singer, | 0:00:49 | 0:00:52 | |
'an actress, a civil rights activist, a writer. | 0:00:52 | 0:00:55 | |
'What's given you most satisfaction?' | 0:00:55 | 0:00:58 | |
I'm a writer. That's what I do. | 0:00:58 | 0:01:01 | |
Um, I'd identify myself to myself as a writer. | 0:01:01 | 0:01:06 | |
Um... | 0:01:06 | 0:01:08 | |
I love the sound of the human voice. | 0:01:10 | 0:01:13 | |
And I love the way | 0:01:13 | 0:01:16 | |
we try to translate ourselves to each other by language. | 0:01:16 | 0:01:20 | |
I love it. | 0:01:20 | 0:01:22 | |
Um... | 0:01:22 | 0:01:23 | |
I speak a number of languages | 0:01:24 | 0:01:26 | |
because I do like the sound of the human voice. | 0:01:26 | 0:01:29 | |
But I also like the... the mystery of language. | 0:01:29 | 0:01:36 | |
That just... It... It... It's got me. | 0:01:36 | 0:01:39 | |
I can't get loose. | 0:01:39 | 0:01:41 | |
'At President Clinton's inauguration, you wrote and performed a poem, | 0:01:41 | 0:01:47 | |
'On The Pulse Of Morning, and you were the first poet | 0:01:47 | 0:01:50 | |
'to do so at an inauguration since Robert Frost spoke at Kennedy's. | 0:01:50 | 0:01:54 | |
'What does that poem, that you spoke then, say to us?' | 0:01:54 | 0:01:57 | |
It says, in effect, | 0:01:57 | 0:01:59 | |
what all my work, I hope, says. | 0:01:59 | 0:02:02 | |
I mean, it is... | 0:02:02 | 0:02:04 | |
I hear pundits explain that | 0:02:04 | 0:02:07 | |
writers may say they have six or eight volumes in them, | 0:02:07 | 0:02:12 | |
or ten, maybe, but they have one theme. | 0:02:12 | 0:02:16 | |
Well, if I have one - I think I have two - | 0:02:16 | 0:02:20 | |
but one theme is that human beings are more alike than we are unalike. | 0:02:20 | 0:02:26 | |
And in everything I write, | 0:02:26 | 0:02:28 | |
whether it's music and lyrics for Roberta Flack | 0:02:28 | 0:02:32 | |
or BB King, or poems or books or essays, | 0:02:32 | 0:02:38 | |
all I'm trying to say, | 0:02:38 | 0:02:40 | |
or what the main thesis is, | 0:02:40 | 0:02:43 | |
is human beings are more alike than we are unalike. | 0:02:43 | 0:02:47 | |
So in the poem On The Pulse Of Morning, I introduce that thesis. | 0:02:47 | 0:02:53 | |
'What's the other main theme you have?' | 0:02:53 | 0:02:55 | |
Well, the second, and it may be the first, | 0:02:55 | 0:02:58 | |
it depends on what time of day I'm talking... But the other is that | 0:02:58 | 0:03:04 | |
we may encounter many defeats, but we must not be defeated. | 0:03:04 | 0:03:08 | |
That, in fact, it may be necessary to encounter defeat | 0:03:08 | 0:03:12 | |
so we can know who the hell we are, what can we overcome, | 0:03:12 | 0:03:16 | |
what makes us stumble and fall and somehow miraculously rise and go on. | 0:03:16 | 0:03:22 | |
I know that a diamond is a result of extreme pressure. | 0:03:22 | 0:03:26 | |
Less time and less pressure | 0:03:26 | 0:03:28 | |
and it's just crystal or coal or fossilised leaves, | 0:03:28 | 0:03:31 | |
or just dirt. | 0:03:31 | 0:03:33 | |
But time and pressure will create a diamond, not... | 0:03:33 | 0:03:39 | |
I mean, it is considered one of the most beautiful elements | 0:03:39 | 0:03:43 | |
and it's one of the hardest elements on our planet. | 0:03:43 | 0:03:47 | |
'A Rock, A River, A Tree, hands working together. | 0:03:47 | 0:03:51 | |
'Another poet, Norton Tennille, has claimed that he wrote | 0:03:51 | 0:03:56 | |
'and published ten years ago, a poem that contains the same themes, | 0:03:56 | 0:04:01 | |
'the same structure and some of the same language. | 0:04:01 | 0:04:04 | |
'Did you respond to that?' | 0:04:04 | 0:04:06 | |
No, I didn't. And I wouldn't. | 0:04:06 | 0:04:09 | |
I think in his poem...I read the poem after he claimed. He used the word | 0:04:09 | 0:04:15 | |
"rock" and he used, I think, a tree or river, but many poets do that. | 0:04:15 | 0:04:21 | |
And, um... they were not in that sequence. | 0:04:21 | 0:04:26 | |
Somewhere in his second verse, he said "a river" or something. | 0:04:26 | 0:04:29 | |
But, um... | 0:04:29 | 0:04:31 | |
he and another fellow seemed to have decided that they will | 0:04:31 | 0:04:36 | |
ride my back into some sort of fame. | 0:04:36 | 0:04:39 | |
I used the rock, the river and the tree | 0:04:39 | 0:04:44 | |
because in all my work I go to the African-American canon | 0:04:44 | 0:04:49 | |
for themes, whether I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings | 0:04:49 | 0:04:54 | |
or... All my books are entitled, and my poetry, I reach back. | 0:04:54 | 0:05:00 | |
In the 19th century there was this song about the rock, | 0:05:00 | 0:05:04 | |
which is still sung in Black churches. It's...um... | 0:05:04 | 0:05:09 | |
# Oh, I went to the rock to hide my face | 0:05:09 | 0:05:12 | |
# Rock cried out, no hiding place | 0:05:12 | 0:05:15 | |
# No hiding place down here... # | 0:05:15 | 0:05:19 | |
So in my poem, I say the rock says, "You may stand on my back, | 0:05:19 | 0:05:23 | |
"but don't hide your face." | 0:05:23 | 0:05:25 | |
And the river is from two songs. It's from... | 0:05:26 | 0:05:31 | |
# Deep river... # | 0:05:31 | 0:05:35 | |
But it's also from, um... | 0:05:35 | 0:05:39 | |
Um, I... | 0:05:40 | 0:05:42 | |
There's a... Mm, The River Of... | 0:05:42 | 0:05:44 | |
'The River Of Jordan?' | 0:05:44 | 0:05:47 | |
No, it's... | 0:05:47 | 0:05:48 | |
I mean, everybody knows the song, it's, um... | 0:05:48 | 0:05:51 | |
I Will Study War No More. | 0:05:51 | 0:05:54 | |
# Oh, I... # | 0:05:56 | 0:05:57 | |
No, I'm thinking of river, a rock. It's... | 0:05:57 | 0:06:01 | |
# I'm going to lay down my sword and shield | 0:06:01 | 0:06:04 | |
# Down by the river side Down by the river side | 0:06:04 | 0:06:09 | |
# Down by the river side | 0:06:09 | 0:06:12 | |
# Lay down my sword and shield Down by the river side | 0:06:12 | 0:06:16 | |
# To study war no more. # | 0:06:16 | 0:06:20 | |
So in my poem, I say the river sings, | 0:06:20 | 0:06:24 | |
and says, "If you will put down your arms and study war no more... | 0:06:24 | 0:06:29 | |
"come." | 0:06:29 | 0:06:31 | |
And then the last poem, the last image... | 0:06:31 | 0:06:35 | |
- 'The tree.' - ..is the tree. | 0:06:35 | 0:06:37 | |
And it was my grandma's favourite song. | 0:06:37 | 0:06:40 | |
And she sang... | 0:06:40 | 0:06:42 | |
She was a tall woman, over 6ft... Taller than I, and I'm 6ft. | 0:06:42 | 0:06:48 | |
And she sang... | 0:06:48 | 0:06:51 | |
# I shall not, I shall not be moved | 0:06:51 | 0:06:55 | |
# I shall not, I shall not be moved | 0:06:55 | 0:07:00 | |
# Just like a tree that's planted by the water | 0:07:00 | 0:07:05 | |
# Oh, I shall not be moved. # | 0:07:05 | 0:07:10 | |
So those are the three. | 0:07:10 | 0:07:12 | |
And throughout the poem, I continue that theme, | 0:07:12 | 0:07:16 | |
that if you will plant yourself | 0:07:16 | 0:07:19 | |
beside me, here beside the river, | 0:07:19 | 0:07:21 | |
and study war no more, then, you know... | 0:07:21 | 0:07:26 | |
- 'Do you think America listened...' - ..you might survive. | 0:07:26 | 0:07:29 | |
'Did America listen to your poem?' | 0:07:29 | 0:07:31 | |
Yes. A number of people listened to the poem. | 0:07:31 | 0:07:35 | |
- 'I mean...' - Heard it, yes. | 0:07:35 | 0:07:38 | |
A number of people have heard it. | 0:07:38 | 0:07:40 | |
And were inspired by it. | 0:07:40 | 0:07:42 | |
But the poem has been translated, I'm told, into some 41 languages. | 0:07:42 | 0:07:48 | |
So, um...a lot of people have heard it. | 0:07:48 | 0:07:51 | |
'Before you'd written a book at all, | 0:07:51 | 0:07:53 | |
'a publisher told you it was hard to write autobiography as literature. | 0:07:53 | 0:07:58 | |
'But The Caged Bird is certainly literature, | 0:07:58 | 0:08:01 | |
'and fine literature at that. | 0:08:01 | 0:08:02 | |
'Was it hard to write?' | 0:08:02 | 0:08:04 | |
It was very hard. | 0:08:04 | 0:08:06 | |
I was suckered into it. | 0:08:06 | 0:08:09 | |
I mean, you know how the pugilists talk about "a sucker punch"? | 0:08:09 | 0:08:13 | |
Well, I had gone with James Baldwin to Jules Feiffer's house, | 0:08:13 | 0:08:20 | |
and Jules was then married to a woman, Judy, | 0:08:20 | 0:08:23 | |
and all three of them were wits | 0:08:23 | 0:08:25 | |
and were big talkers. | 0:08:25 | 0:08:27 | |
So I had to fight for the right to play it good. | 0:08:27 | 0:08:31 | |
The next day, after the evening | 0:08:31 | 0:08:33 | |
of great fun and revelry and copious libation | 0:08:33 | 0:08:37 | |
and so on, this woman, Judy Feiffer, | 0:08:37 | 0:08:40 | |
called the man who became my editor and said, | 0:08:40 | 0:08:43 | |
"If you could get the poet Maya Angelou | 0:08:43 | 0:08:46 | |
"to write a book about her life, | 0:08:46 | 0:08:49 | |
"you would have something." So he phoned and I said, "No." | 0:08:49 | 0:08:52 | |
He asked me a second time, I said, "No." | 0:08:52 | 0:08:55 | |
So I went out to California, I had written ten one-hour programmes, | 0:08:55 | 0:08:59 | |
a series, for PBS. | 0:08:59 | 0:09:01 | |
And Bob Loomis phoned the last time, he said, | 0:09:01 | 0:09:05 | |
"Well, Miss Angelou, I'm just glad | 0:09:05 | 0:09:08 | |
"you don't try to write an autobiography, | 0:09:08 | 0:09:13 | |
"because to write autobiography as literature is impossible." | 0:09:13 | 0:09:17 | |
So I said, "Well, let me try!" | 0:09:17 | 0:09:20 | |
But I'm sure James Baldwin had called him, | 0:09:20 | 0:09:23 | |
because that's something... | 0:09:23 | 0:09:24 | |
Even now, I still jump when that button is pushed. | 0:09:24 | 0:09:28 | |
I'm not proud of that. | 0:09:28 | 0:09:30 | |
I would like to become, to grow into the person who says, | 0:09:30 | 0:09:35 | |
"Oh, you pushed that button, I shall not jump." | 0:09:35 | 0:09:38 | |
But I haven't grown that far yet. | 0:09:38 | 0:09:41 | |
'Was it hard to remember? | 0:09:41 | 0:09:42 | |
'Had you buried the memories of your early life?' | 0:09:42 | 0:09:46 | |
I don't think so. Um... | 0:09:47 | 0:09:50 | |
I had... | 0:09:52 | 0:09:54 | |
I have a strange kind of memory, | 0:09:54 | 0:09:57 | |
and I think it is a physiological difference in my brain. | 0:09:57 | 0:10:04 | |
Because I didn't speak for years. | 0:10:04 | 0:10:06 | |
And I think those areas of the brain which would have dealt with | 0:10:06 | 0:10:10 | |
the vocalisation and articulation of ideas had gone. | 0:10:10 | 0:10:17 | |
I think that the brain just went somewhere else. | 0:10:18 | 0:10:21 | |
It just said, "OK, I'm not jumping from here to there | 0:10:21 | 0:10:24 | |
"so I'll jump from here to there." | 0:10:24 | 0:10:26 | |
And I have a strange kind of memory. | 0:10:26 | 0:10:28 | |
Um... | 0:10:30 | 0:10:32 | |
A lot of the people I've written about are still alive. | 0:10:32 | 0:10:36 | |
'Tell me... I talked to a writer the other day in this series, | 0:10:36 | 0:10:41 | |
'the English writer and novelist Jeanette Winterson, and she said, | 0:10:41 | 0:10:45 | |
'"There's no such thing as autobiography. | 0:10:45 | 0:10:48 | |
'"There's only art and lies."' | 0:10:48 | 0:10:50 | |
SHE LAUGHS | 0:10:50 | 0:10:52 | |
I love that! Well...that's good. | 0:10:52 | 0:10:55 | |
'Do you reckon you're...? | 0:10:55 | 0:10:57 | |
'To what extent is the book a construct | 0:10:57 | 0:11:00 | |
'and to what extent is it reportage of what actually happened?' | 0:11:00 | 0:11:03 | |
Oh, no, I think that that's a wonderful statement, | 0:11:03 | 0:11:06 | |
because all art is lies, all lies are art. | 0:11:06 | 0:11:09 | |
It's like all riddles are blues and all blues are sad. | 0:11:09 | 0:11:13 | |
Or funny, or something. | 0:11:13 | 0:11:15 | |
I mean, you can't say that... | 0:11:15 | 0:11:18 | |
that I have spoken truth to you, | 0:11:18 | 0:11:22 | |
even though I say this is a red blouse. | 0:11:22 | 0:11:27 | |
Now, red to me may mean something utterly different to you. | 0:11:27 | 0:11:31 | |
And so, my attempt to translate, to describe what I see, | 0:11:31 | 0:11:39 | |
may be so absolutely different. | 0:11:39 | 0:11:43 | |
What I mean by square may mean something other than | 0:11:43 | 0:11:47 | |
what you mean by square. | 0:11:47 | 0:11:50 | |
- Um... - 'Tell me...' | 0:11:50 | 0:11:52 | |
Let me just finish this. I love that. | 0:11:52 | 0:11:55 | |
I believe... | 0:11:57 | 0:11:59 | |
..that people can tell so many facts that they obscure the truth. | 0:12:01 | 0:12:05 | |
You can describe the places where, the people who, the times when, | 0:12:07 | 0:12:12 | |
the methods how, et cetera. | 0:12:12 | 0:12:15 | |
And never get to the truth of the matter. | 0:12:15 | 0:12:17 | |
You just blind people with data and numbers and stuff. | 0:12:18 | 0:12:23 | |
Percentages. | 0:12:23 | 0:12:24 | |
But the heart of the thing is lost, or beshrouded. | 0:12:24 | 0:12:29 | |
Now, I have no hesitation in trying to get to the truth of the matter. | 0:12:30 | 0:12:36 | |
And putting five or six facts and pieces of data together, | 0:12:37 | 0:12:42 | |
to try to show, | 0:12:42 | 0:12:43 | |
"Look at this, look at this, this is human, this is who we are, | 0:12:43 | 0:12:47 | |
"this is what we can stand." | 0:12:47 | 0:12:48 | |
So, art and lies, I like that. | 0:12:49 | 0:12:53 | |
'Tell me about your childhood. Who was your father?' | 0:12:53 | 0:12:56 | |
My father was Bailey Johnson. | 0:12:56 | 0:12:59 | |
My father was born to a woman who was a...a tree, really. | 0:12:59 | 0:13:07 | |
I mean, she was... | 0:13:07 | 0:13:10 | |
And at 16, he left home, he left this little village in the South | 0:13:10 | 0:13:15 | |
where my grandmother owned the only Black-owned store in the town. | 0:13:15 | 0:13:20 | |
He left and joined up, put his age up and went to World War I. | 0:13:20 | 0:13:26 | |
And learnt French. | 0:13:26 | 0:13:28 | |
And came back much too grand for his skin, | 0:13:29 | 0:13:34 | |
for his skin colour at the time. | 0:13:34 | 0:13:38 | |
He thought that he... | 0:13:38 | 0:13:40 | |
He was handsome, he spoke French, | 0:13:40 | 0:13:44 | |
he was debonair and he would've been lynched in the South. | 0:13:44 | 0:13:50 | |
'Right.' | 0:13:50 | 0:13:52 | |
So he became a doorman at a swank hotel in Los Angeles. | 0:13:52 | 0:13:59 | |
And he wore a uniform. | 0:14:00 | 0:14:03 | |
I have photographs. | 0:14:03 | 0:14:04 | |
He wore the uniform as if he was a major in the army. | 0:14:04 | 0:14:07 | |
It was just... | 0:14:07 | 0:14:09 | |
'And your mother? Who was she?' | 0:14:09 | 0:14:11 | |
My mother was a very pretty woman from St Louis and, um... | 0:14:11 | 0:14:16 | |
who loved him quite a lot. | 0:14:16 | 0:14:19 | |
Fortunately for myself, for my brother, | 0:14:19 | 0:14:21 | |
for the welfare and weel of my country, they separated soon - | 0:14:21 | 0:14:27 | |
they were absolutely too volatile to be together. | 0:14:27 | 0:14:31 | |
But she was a very pretty woman | 0:14:31 | 0:14:33 | |
and a very bright woman, and very courageous. | 0:14:33 | 0:14:37 | |
'She worked hard and sent you, when you were three, away.' | 0:14:37 | 0:14:41 | |
- Yes. - 'She sent you to your grandmother.' | 0:14:41 | 0:14:43 | |
- To my paternal grandmother at that. - 'Right.' | 0:14:43 | 0:14:46 | |
'Was there any sense of rejection on your part at that time?' | 0:14:46 | 0:14:49 | |
Absolutely. I thought it was the worst thing. | 0:14:49 | 0:14:52 | |
I just declared her dead, | 0:14:52 | 0:14:54 | |
so that I wouldn't have to long for her. | 0:14:54 | 0:14:58 | |
Um...yes, it was terrible rejection. | 0:14:58 | 0:15:02 | |
My brother has never recovered. | 0:15:02 | 0:15:05 | |
'What was your grandmother like?' | 0:15:05 | 0:15:07 | |
Aah, Momma! | 0:15:07 | 0:15:09 | |
She was just the best. | 0:15:09 | 0:15:11 | |
She spoke softly. | 0:15:11 | 0:15:13 | |
She walked very straight. | 0:15:13 | 0:15:16 | |
And she was severe. | 0:15:16 | 0:15:18 | |
So that people who owed us money really disliked her. | 0:15:18 | 0:15:24 | |
Because she never gave anybody... | 0:15:24 | 0:15:27 | |
She didn't seem to have any laxity in herself - | 0:15:27 | 0:15:31 | |
physically, or in her personality. | 0:15:31 | 0:15:36 | |
It was one way, that was the way. | 0:15:36 | 0:15:39 | |
So I got a whipping once when I was very young, | 0:15:39 | 0:15:42 | |
because I said, "By the way," to my brother. | 0:15:42 | 0:15:47 | |
My grandmother whipped me. | 0:15:47 | 0:15:48 | |
She said... I mean switched, you know. | 0:15:48 | 0:15:51 | |
But she said, "Jesus was the Way, the Truth and the Light," | 0:15:51 | 0:15:55 | |
and I had said, "By the way," which meant "by Jesus", | 0:15:55 | 0:15:59 | |
which was a way of saying, "By God," | 0:15:59 | 0:16:01 | |
and she would have no cursing in her house. | 0:16:01 | 0:16:04 | |
So I mean, she was just...stern. | 0:16:04 | 0:16:09 | |
'Your mother sent for you back to St Louis.' | 0:16:09 | 0:16:11 | |
Yes. | 0:16:11 | 0:16:12 | |
'And at the age of seven or eight...' | 0:16:12 | 0:16:16 | |
Seven. | 0:16:16 | 0:16:17 | |
'..seven, you were raped by one of her boyfriends. | 0:16:17 | 0:16:21 | |
'There's an extraordinary brief passage in the book | 0:16:22 | 0:16:26 | |
'in which you describe that experience. | 0:16:26 | 0:16:29 | |
- 'Can you repeat it?' - I can't repeat it. | 0:16:29 | 0:16:31 | |
'Do you mind if I repeat it? Cos it brings...' | 0:16:31 | 0:16:34 | |
Let me try to tell you about it. | 0:16:34 | 0:16:37 | |
Er... | 0:16:37 | 0:16:38 | |
I know that he was longing... | 0:16:41 | 0:16:44 | |
This is not an apologia for him, | 0:16:44 | 0:16:47 | |
but I know that he was intoxicated with my mother. | 0:16:47 | 0:16:53 | |
Most men were, for years. | 0:16:53 | 0:16:56 | |
And she lived outside, and she was funny and clever and cute and that. | 0:16:57 | 0:17:05 | |
And I think in his rage at his inability to control her | 0:17:05 | 0:17:10 | |
and have her when he wanted, I think he raped me in rage. | 0:17:10 | 0:17:17 | |
Er... | 0:17:18 | 0:17:20 | |
I don't condone that. | 0:17:20 | 0:17:23 | |
But as an adult, I try to understand what provokes | 0:17:23 | 0:17:29 | |
and impels people into and out of things. | 0:17:29 | 0:17:33 | |
Er... | 0:17:34 | 0:17:35 | |
'At the time, it was an appalling trauma. | 0:17:37 | 0:17:41 | |
'How did you recover from that?' | 0:17:41 | 0:17:43 | |
I don't know if I've ever recovered. | 0:17:43 | 0:17:46 | |
I operate in the familiar. | 0:17:46 | 0:17:48 | |
And because I don't carry the bitterness of it, | 0:17:48 | 0:17:53 | |
I've not been as wounded... | 0:17:53 | 0:17:56 | |
I was terribly wounded at first, | 0:17:56 | 0:17:58 | |
but the wounds become scars and the scars become...sacr... | 0:17:58 | 0:18:07 | |
Well, just...little pieces of cosmetics. | 0:18:07 | 0:18:10 | |
'Is that the advice you would give to people | 0:18:10 | 0:18:13 | |
'whose dear ones suffer such a trauma?' | 0:18:13 | 0:18:15 | |
I would say to everybody, whether the dear one | 0:18:15 | 0:18:18 | |
or the person herself or himself, | 0:18:18 | 0:18:21 | |
I would say, do your best not to... | 0:18:21 | 0:18:23 | |
give passage and harbour to bitterness. | 0:18:23 | 0:18:28 | |
Bitterness is stupid. | 0:18:28 | 0:18:30 | |
It's like cancer, it eats upon the host. | 0:18:30 | 0:18:33 | |
Doesn't do a damn thing to the object. | 0:18:33 | 0:18:36 | |
So try not to be bitter, cos that's silly. | 0:18:36 | 0:18:39 | |
I mean, that's a waste of energy, and almost a waste of life. | 0:18:39 | 0:18:43 | |
To be angry is very good, I think. | 0:18:43 | 0:18:45 | |
Anger is like fire, it burns things out, | 0:18:45 | 0:18:48 | |
and leaves nutrients in the soil and so forth. | 0:18:48 | 0:18:52 | |
I think that's good. | 0:18:52 | 0:18:53 | |
We should always be ready to be angry at injustice and cruelty. | 0:18:53 | 0:18:57 | |
But not to be bitter. | 0:18:57 | 0:18:59 | |
'You told the rapist's name, | 0:18:59 | 0:19:01 | |
'and the next day, I think, he was beaten to death.' | 0:19:01 | 0:19:06 | |
- Well... - 'Was that a direct consequence?' | 0:19:06 | 0:19:09 | |
Well, he was put in jail, and he was freed in one day. | 0:19:09 | 0:19:13 | |
He was put in jail, and he spent one day. | 0:19:13 | 0:19:18 | |
And the police came by my maternal grandmother's house | 0:19:18 | 0:19:24 | |
and told her that he had been found dead, | 0:19:24 | 0:19:28 | |
and it seemed he'd been kicked to death. | 0:19:28 | 0:19:32 | |
I was seven and a half. | 0:19:32 | 0:19:34 | |
I thought my voice had actually killed him. | 0:19:34 | 0:19:38 | |
And so... | 0:19:38 | 0:19:40 | |
..I stopped talking. | 0:19:43 | 0:19:45 | |
It seemed to me it was very dangerous. | 0:19:45 | 0:19:47 | |
That if my voice could kill people like that, then if I spoke, | 0:19:47 | 0:19:53 | |
anybody might just get downed. | 0:19:53 | 0:19:57 | |
I felt I could speak to my grandma, and sometimes I did. | 0:19:57 | 0:20:01 | |
'You took a conscious decision not to speak.' | 0:20:01 | 0:20:03 | |
Yes. | 0:20:03 | 0:20:04 | |
And you held to that for how long? | 0:20:04 | 0:20:06 | |
Almost six years. | 0:20:06 | 0:20:08 | |
'How did that affect your schooling? | 0:20:08 | 0:20:10 | |
'You went back to Stamps in Arkansas, how did...?' | 0:20:10 | 0:20:13 | |
I was an A student. | 0:20:13 | 0:20:14 | |
But you see, also, my grandmother, again, owned most of the land. | 0:20:14 | 0:20:19 | |
And Momma was Momma. | 0:20:19 | 0:20:21 | |
So all the teachers who came... It was the South, | 0:20:21 | 0:20:25 | |
and there were no boarding houses for Black teachers. | 0:20:25 | 0:20:28 | |
They would come from the big city, like Little Rock or Pine Bluff, | 0:20:28 | 0:20:34 | |
to this village, and they would have to live with people, | 0:20:34 | 0:20:37 | |
you know, who had houses. | 0:20:37 | 0:20:39 | |
Well, as soon as the teachers would move in, they would be told, | 0:20:39 | 0:20:43 | |
"Sister Henderson's granddaughter doesn't speak." | 0:20:43 | 0:20:48 | |
So I wrote everything on the blackboard. | 0:20:48 | 0:20:52 | |
I had a tablet which I tucked into my skirt, | 0:20:52 | 0:20:55 | |
and if I had a dress I would have a belt. | 0:20:55 | 0:20:58 | |
Tie belt, and tuck it in. | 0:20:58 | 0:21:00 | |
And I wrote everything. | 0:21:00 | 0:21:02 | |
- 'And you read.' - I read. | 0:21:02 | 0:21:06 | |
'And you say that you discovered Shakespeare at Stamps.' | 0:21:06 | 0:21:10 | |
Yeah, at about ten. Nine or ten. | 0:21:10 | 0:21:13 | |
It was amazing. | 0:21:14 | 0:21:15 | |
I couldn't believe that he was White! | 0:21:15 | 0:21:18 | |
Really. | 0:21:19 | 0:21:20 | |
Because, I mean, his language was complicated, | 0:21:20 | 0:21:24 | |
but I read the sonnets, and I memorised 50 sonnets. | 0:21:24 | 0:21:30 | |
Er... | 0:21:30 | 0:21:31 | |
But the one, one of them... | 0:21:31 | 0:21:34 | |
I mean, I loved a number of them, but the one that made me think, | 0:21:34 | 0:21:38 | |
"How could he know what it feels like to be me?" is - | 0:21:38 | 0:21:43 | |
When, in disgrace with fortune and men's eyes | 0:21:43 | 0:21:47 | |
I all alone bemoan my outcast state | 0:21:47 | 0:21:53 | |
And trouble a deaf Heaven with my bootless cries | 0:21:53 | 0:21:58 | |
And look upon myself and curse my fate | 0:21:58 | 0:22:01 | |
Wishing me like one more rich in hope | 0:22:01 | 0:22:04 | |
Featured like him Like him with friends possessed | 0:22:04 | 0:22:07 | |
Desiring that man's art and that man's scope | 0:22:07 | 0:22:10 | |
And with what I most enjoy contented least. | 0:22:10 | 0:22:13 | |
How could he know that, almost five centuries earlier? | 0:22:13 | 0:22:18 | |
Oh, no. I mean, I wouldn't have been too surprised | 0:22:18 | 0:22:21 | |
if somebody had shown me that he was really a Black girl in Stamps. | 0:22:21 | 0:22:25 | |
'The Ku Klux Klan were at work | 0:22:27 | 0:22:31 | |
'in your childhood, in your town.' | 0:22:31 | 0:22:35 | |
- Were people scared of them? - 'Absolutely.' | 0:22:36 | 0:22:40 | |
And in my town, they didn't wear sheets. | 0:22:40 | 0:22:44 | |
They didn't have to. | 0:22:44 | 0:22:46 | |
They had such power that they could ride over into the Black area, | 0:22:46 | 0:22:51 | |
threaten, kill and maim people, | 0:22:51 | 0:22:54 | |
just because they didn't agree with God's choice | 0:22:54 | 0:22:57 | |
for the colours of the people's skin. | 0:22:57 | 0:22:59 | |
And they didn't wear sheets. | 0:22:59 | 0:23:01 | |
'And when you stood up to them - | 0:23:01 | 0:23:03 | |
'or rather, when you expressed your views to White people | 0:23:03 | 0:23:06 | |
'in the other part of the town - | 0:23:06 | 0:23:08 | |
'your family told you that was dangerous, and said to shut up...' | 0:23:08 | 0:23:12 | |
- And get out. - '..and take care, and get out. | 0:23:12 | 0:23:14 | |
'Did your mother ever talk to you | 0:23:16 | 0:23:19 | |
'later on in your relationship with her about the rape? | 0:23:19 | 0:23:22 | |
'Did she feel responsible for it | 0:23:22 | 0:23:24 | |
- 'in any way?' - Not a word. She really... | 0:23:24 | 0:23:27 | |
She was a very passionate woman, very... | 0:23:27 | 0:23:34 | |
She held her anger like... | 0:23:34 | 0:23:40 | |
some people hold banners. Flags. | 0:23:40 | 0:23:45 | |
She was very proud of her anger. It described her to herself. | 0:23:45 | 0:23:50 | |
'It was her boyfriend, she never apologised to you for what happened?' | 0:23:50 | 0:23:54 | |
No. She wouldn't have... I mean, no. | 0:23:54 | 0:23:58 | |
No, she wasn't that sort of person. | 0:23:58 | 0:24:00 | |
'You had both a glamorous, loving, working mother, | 0:24:00 | 0:24:05 | |
'and also a very strong grandmother. | 0:24:05 | 0:24:09 | |
'You had a supportive extended family. | 0:24:09 | 0:24:14 | |
'Is that characteristic of Negro society?' | 0:24:14 | 0:24:16 | |
Well...I had a wonderful uncle, too. And I think... | 0:24:16 | 0:24:21 | |
And my brother, of course. | 0:24:21 | 0:24:23 | |
But my uncle was very supportive and very encouraging. | 0:24:23 | 0:24:28 | |
He believed I could do things. | 0:24:28 | 0:24:31 | |
And, er, I have to mention his name. | 0:24:31 | 0:24:36 | |
'Do those sort of hopes still persist in the South?' | 0:24:36 | 0:24:40 | |
In some places, yes. | 0:24:40 | 0:24:42 | |
In the areas where they don't, we see the statistics, | 0:24:42 | 0:24:47 | |
the painful taunting, the tales of brutality | 0:24:47 | 0:24:52 | |
- and random violence and that. - 'You mean in the inner cities?' | 0:24:52 | 0:24:56 | |
Yes, and in the South as well. | 0:24:56 | 0:24:59 | |
Yes. | 0:24:59 | 0:25:00 | |
'Er, you became the first Black conductorette. | 0:25:01 | 0:25:05 | |
'How did you get that job?' | 0:25:05 | 0:25:07 | |
Well, I wanted a job, and I was 16... | 0:25:07 | 0:25:11 | |
I was 15, and, er... | 0:25:11 | 0:25:13 | |
..my mother said, "Go get a job." | 0:25:15 | 0:25:17 | |
And I was ahead in my classwork, | 0:25:17 | 0:25:20 | |
and I'd been down visiting my dad to disastrous results. | 0:25:20 | 0:25:25 | |
And so my mom said I could work for the next three months. | 0:25:25 | 0:25:29 | |
So I wanted to get a job on the street cars | 0:25:30 | 0:25:33 | |
because I saw women on the street cars. | 0:25:33 | 0:25:35 | |
I didn't notice that they were only White. | 0:25:35 | 0:25:38 | |
But they had changers, coin changers. | 0:25:38 | 0:25:42 | |
And wore caps with bibs, and jackets. | 0:25:42 | 0:25:45 | |
They looked just it. | 0:25:45 | 0:25:47 | |
So I thought, "I'll get myself a job." | 0:25:47 | 0:25:50 | |
I was 6ft tall and White people | 0:25:50 | 0:25:52 | |
didn't know how Black people looked anyway, how old one was. | 0:25:52 | 0:25:57 | |
So I went down and they wouldn't even accept... | 0:25:57 | 0:26:00 | |
I mean, they wouldn't give me a form, an application form. | 0:26:00 | 0:26:04 | |
I came back home devastated, to my mom. | 0:26:04 | 0:26:08 | |
And she asked me, "Do you know why they wouldn't?" | 0:26:08 | 0:26:10 | |
I said, "Yes, because I'm Black." | 0:26:10 | 0:26:12 | |
She said, "That's right. Do you want it?" | 0:26:12 | 0:26:14 | |
I said, "Yes." She said, "Go get it." | 0:26:14 | 0:26:17 | |
So, she said she would give me lunch money and car fare and I should go | 0:26:17 | 0:26:23 | |
every day and be there before the secretaries go in, | 0:26:23 | 0:26:27 | |
and sit there and read. | 0:26:27 | 0:26:30 | |
Go out to lunch, but be back before the secretaries, wait at the door. | 0:26:30 | 0:26:34 | |
Be there. | 0:26:34 | 0:26:36 | |
Well, by about the fourth day I was so tired of this thing, | 0:26:36 | 0:26:40 | |
I wanted to give up, I wanted to go home. | 0:26:40 | 0:26:43 | |
But Mom... I mean, Mom, she asked me, "Do you want it?" | 0:26:43 | 0:26:47 | |
I said, "Yes." She said, "Get it." | 0:26:47 | 0:26:49 | |
So I couldn't fold, you know? | 0:26:49 | 0:26:53 | |
I really was tired of it, but I stuck it. | 0:26:53 | 0:26:56 | |
And after a month, I got the job. | 0:26:56 | 0:26:58 | |
'Looking for sexual experience, you asked a young man | 0:26:59 | 0:27:02 | |
'to have intercourse with you and got pregnant.' | 0:27:02 | 0:27:04 | |
Yes. | 0:27:04 | 0:27:06 | |
'Was it easy to be a mother at the age of 17?' | 0:27:06 | 0:27:08 | |
Well, it wasn't easy. | 0:27:10 | 0:27:13 | |
But my mom didn't put me down. | 0:27:13 | 0:27:15 | |
I mean, I didn't let her know until three weeks before my child was born. | 0:27:15 | 0:27:21 | |
She delivered him. | 0:27:21 | 0:27:23 | |
She asked me, "Do you love the boy?" | 0:27:23 | 0:27:24 | |
I said, "No." She asked, "Does he love you?" I said, "No." | 0:27:24 | 0:27:27 | |
She said, "well, then, there's no point in ruining three lives. | 0:27:27 | 0:27:30 | |
"We have a baby, we're going to have a baby." | 0:27:30 | 0:27:33 | |
And, um, my son... | 0:27:33 | 0:27:36 | |
I mean, if I have a monument in the world, my son is my monument. | 0:27:36 | 0:27:42 | |
He says I shouldn't say that, that he should be his own monument. | 0:27:42 | 0:27:46 | |
But he's not here, I can say it! | 0:27:46 | 0:27:49 | |
'Later on, hard put to earn a living, and for other reasons, | 0:27:49 | 0:27:55 | |
'you became briefly a prostitute.' | 0:27:55 | 0:27:58 | |
Well, it wasn't... | 0:27:58 | 0:27:59 | |
I think it was...because... | 0:27:59 | 0:28:03 | |
the fellow I liked told me he was desperate. | 0:28:03 | 0:28:07 | |
And I was so green! | 0:28:09 | 0:28:11 | |
I mean, I was 18 or something. | 0:28:11 | 0:28:14 | |
I think at 18, people probably should all be put out in pens, you know! | 0:28:14 | 0:28:18 | |
Fresh meat thrown to them until they become acclimatised and socialised. | 0:28:20 | 0:28:26 | |
I tell you why I wrote that, though. | 0:28:26 | 0:28:28 | |
I wrote about that in a book called Gather Together In My Name | 0:28:28 | 0:28:34 | |
because so many adults told, and tell, young people, | 0:28:34 | 0:28:39 | |
"I've never done anything wrong. | 0:28:39 | 0:28:42 | |
"My closet is free of spectres and ghosts and skeletons. | 0:28:42 | 0:28:47 | |
"My dad would've killed... My mother... | 0:28:47 | 0:28:49 | |
"I was so good." | 0:28:49 | 0:28:51 | |
And so young men and women must think, | 0:28:51 | 0:28:53 | |
"Damn, there's something wrong with me. | 0:28:53 | 0:28:56 | |
"My parents are so good and so pure." | 0:28:56 | 0:29:00 | |
So I thought, they could all gather together in my name. | 0:29:00 | 0:29:05 | |
I would tell the children, "Listen, I've done this. | 0:29:05 | 0:29:08 | |
"This has happened. | 0:29:08 | 0:29:10 | |
"I have forgiven myself, I have gotten up and this has happened." | 0:29:10 | 0:29:14 | |
I was afraid that when I told it that there would be a sort of worldwide, | 0:29:14 | 0:29:20 | |
or certainly nationwide, sneering at me. | 0:29:20 | 0:29:25 | |
Just the opposite. | 0:29:25 | 0:29:27 | |
Just the opposite happened. | 0:29:27 | 0:29:29 | |
People were so grateful that somebody told the children, "Listen, dear, | 0:29:29 | 0:29:35 | |
"you may make many mistakes, you may be defeated, | 0:29:35 | 0:29:39 | |
"but you must not be defeated. | 0:29:39 | 0:29:41 | |
"You may encounter defeats." | 0:29:41 | 0:29:44 | |
'How did you avoid the mistake of getting on to heavy drugs?' | 0:29:44 | 0:29:49 | |
Well, a man was very kind to me. | 0:29:49 | 0:29:52 | |
A man who used drugs, who was a boyfriend. | 0:29:52 | 0:29:55 | |
He took me to a... | 0:29:58 | 0:30:00 | |
..shooting gallery, | 0:30:01 | 0:30:03 | |
where they shoot up drugs. | 0:30:03 | 0:30:06 | |
And I didn't even know he used drugs. | 0:30:06 | 0:30:09 | |
But he took me, and he brought me into the bathroom | 0:30:09 | 0:30:13 | |
and leaned against the door so I couldn't get out. | 0:30:13 | 0:30:16 | |
And he rolled up his sleeve and he took his tie. | 0:30:16 | 0:30:19 | |
And I started crying. | 0:30:19 | 0:30:20 | |
He said, "Watch it, look at this." | 0:30:20 | 0:30:23 | |
And he fished around with the needle. | 0:30:23 | 0:30:26 | |
And I was crying and he just forced me to look. | 0:30:26 | 0:30:30 | |
And finally he found the needle...the vein. | 0:30:30 | 0:30:32 | |
And he untied this tie. | 0:30:32 | 0:30:35 | |
And you could see the drugs. | 0:30:35 | 0:30:36 | |
I mean, you could see his face. | 0:30:36 | 0:30:39 | |
Almost like in slow motion. | 0:30:40 | 0:30:43 | |
Almost like a melting down, like a Dali-esque painting. | 0:30:43 | 0:30:47 | |
You could see the tension go out. | 0:30:48 | 0:30:50 | |
He said, "Now, do you want some?" | 0:30:50 | 0:30:52 | |
"Absolutely not!" | 0:30:54 | 0:30:57 | |
So I've never been tempted, I have never sniffed it or smoked it or... | 0:30:57 | 0:31:03 | |
That was a very kind thing for him to do. | 0:31:04 | 0:31:07 | |
'You were a dancer, you discovered you could dance, | 0:31:07 | 0:31:11 | |
'and you performed in the great, famous tour of Porgy And Bess.' | 0:31:11 | 0:31:15 | |
Yes. | 0:31:15 | 0:31:17 | |
'Did you know you could be an entertainer of that quality?' | 0:31:17 | 0:31:21 | |
Um, yes. | 0:31:23 | 0:31:24 | |
I had studied dance, | 0:31:24 | 0:31:26 | |
and I always thought I would do something quite wonderful. | 0:31:26 | 0:31:32 | |
Whatever I did, I was going to do it as well as I could. | 0:31:32 | 0:31:35 | |
I thought at one time I was going to become a real estate broker | 0:31:35 | 0:31:38 | |
and have my own briefcase | 0:31:38 | 0:31:40 | |
and high-heeled matching shoes. | 0:31:40 | 0:31:42 | |
I was going to do that. | 0:31:42 | 0:31:44 | |
'One of your marriages, a marriage to a member, | 0:31:46 | 0:31:49 | |
'I think, of the Pan-African Congress, took you to Cairo. | 0:31:49 | 0:31:52 | |
'Then from there, you went on to Ghana. | 0:31:52 | 0:31:55 | |
'What did you learn about the world in Africa?' | 0:31:55 | 0:31:59 | |
I was quite surprised to find that a number of Africanisms, or what | 0:31:59 | 0:32:04 | |
I thought were Afro-Americanisms, really had their origin in Africa. | 0:32:04 | 0:32:10 | |
I had been up on the soapbox with everybody else, including Malcolm, | 0:32:10 | 0:32:17 | |
saying that our culture was taken from us by slavery. | 0:32:17 | 0:32:22 | |
Not so. Not so. | 0:32:23 | 0:32:25 | |
So many things I had grown up knowing and in using - ways of speaking, | 0:32:25 | 0:32:31 | |
ways of moving, ways of treating other people - | 0:32:31 | 0:32:35 | |
I found to be Africanisms. | 0:32:35 | 0:32:38 | |
That was a fabulous experience. | 0:32:38 | 0:32:43 | |
I got off a plane in Kano, Nigeria. | 0:32:43 | 0:32:47 | |
I had taken the Egyptian airline to Kano. | 0:32:47 | 0:32:51 | |
I got off the plane and a young Black man, in white shirt, white knickers, | 0:32:51 | 0:32:57 | |
epaulettes, a cap... | 0:32:57 | 0:33:00 | |
I'd never seen a Black man on a tarmac | 0:33:00 | 0:33:03 | |
in anything other than a cleaning uniform. | 0:33:03 | 0:33:07 | |
And this fellow saluted as the people deplaned, | 0:33:07 | 0:33:11 | |
all the Europeans and Egyptians. | 0:33:11 | 0:33:13 | |
"Good afternoon. Welcome to Kano. Welcome. Welcome." | 0:33:13 | 0:33:16 | |
And when I came down, | 0:33:16 | 0:33:18 | |
a beam of smile went right to his ears and he said, "Welcome, Auntie." | 0:33:18 | 0:33:25 | |
I thought, "Wait a minute." | 0:33:25 | 0:33:27 | |
But that's how I would have been addressed | 0:33:27 | 0:33:29 | |
by a young person in the South. | 0:33:29 | 0:33:34 | |
'Have your books changed the way that Black Americans see the world? | 0:33:34 | 0:33:38 | |
'Or the way that we see Black Americans?' | 0:33:40 | 0:33:42 | |
Some people say so, it's not for me to say that. | 0:33:42 | 0:33:45 | |
'You've often been described as a feminist writer. | 0:33:46 | 0:33:50 | |
'Are you a feminist writer?' | 0:33:50 | 0:33:51 | |
Well, I'm a female and I'm a writer. | 0:33:51 | 0:33:54 | |
Um, I don't know if that's so. | 0:33:54 | 0:33:56 | |
'You once said that feminism didn't offer much to Black American women.' | 0:33:56 | 0:34:02 | |
Oh, well, maybe that was early on. | 0:34:02 | 0:34:04 | |
I don't know about feminism, anyway. | 0:34:04 | 0:34:06 | |
I know about woman-ism. | 0:34:06 | 0:34:09 | |
I know something about that. | 0:34:09 | 0:34:10 | |
Sometimes, feminists can be... | 0:34:10 | 0:34:16 | |
Feminism can be...not very inviting. | 0:34:16 | 0:34:21 | |
And I like very much... | 0:34:22 | 0:34:24 | |
I like being a woman...a lot. | 0:34:24 | 0:34:26 | |
And being a Black American woman even more. | 0:34:28 | 0:34:32 | |
I do know that there's a difference between being an old female | 0:34:32 | 0:34:36 | |
and being a woman. | 0:34:36 | 0:34:38 | |
Born with certain genitalia, if you live long enough | 0:34:38 | 0:34:41 | |
and don't get run over by a truck or eaten up by a lion or something, | 0:34:41 | 0:34:45 | |
then you can be an old female. | 0:34:45 | 0:34:48 | |
But to be a woman...is so inviting. | 0:34:48 | 0:34:53 | |
It's the same being a man. | 0:34:53 | 0:34:55 | |
You can have certain genitalia and live long enough, | 0:34:55 | 0:34:58 | |
you'll be an old male. | 0:34:58 | 0:34:59 | |
But to be a man is to have some grace and some humour, some passion, | 0:34:59 | 0:35:06 | |
some compassion. | 0:35:06 | 0:35:07 | |
It's a wonderful thing. | 0:35:09 | 0:35:10 | |
'Is there anything you regret in your life, anything you regret not doing?' | 0:35:10 | 0:35:15 | |
Hmm, that's a waste of time, isn't it? | 0:35:15 | 0:35:20 | |
I don't know. | 0:35:20 | 0:35:21 | |
- 'Do you have fears, at all?' - Mm-hm. | 0:35:21 | 0:35:23 | |
I feared coming on this programme. | 0:35:23 | 0:35:26 | |
'I hope you're not frightened now.' | 0:35:27 | 0:35:31 | |
Mm, I will be over my fear when the programme is finished. | 0:35:31 | 0:35:35 | |
No, but really, I have agreed that I will die. | 0:35:35 | 0:35:40 | |
I admit that. | 0:35:40 | 0:35:43 | |
Once I get that far, I'm all right. | 0:35:43 | 0:35:47 | |
Because I understand that is the big bugaboo, | 0:35:47 | 0:35:50 | |
and I will do that, ready or not. | 0:35:50 | 0:35:53 | |
So if I can do that, and will, then... | 0:35:53 | 0:35:57 | |
'What's the task you've set yourself before you die?' | 0:35:58 | 0:36:02 | |
I want to... So many things. | 0:36:04 | 0:36:05 | |
I want to be a Christian. | 0:36:05 | 0:36:07 | |
That's a really hard matter. | 0:36:09 | 0:36:11 | |
It's like being a Jew or a Muslim, Buddhist, Shintoist. | 0:36:11 | 0:36:15 | |
I'm always amazed when people walk up and say, "I'm a Christian." | 0:36:15 | 0:36:18 | |
I think, "Already? Damn!" | 0:36:18 | 0:36:22 | |
I'm working so hard at it, to BE it. | 0:36:22 | 0:36:26 | |
I really would like to BE it, | 0:36:26 | 0:36:30 | |
a kind person, an inclusive person. | 0:36:30 | 0:36:35 | |
Merciful, even. | 0:36:39 | 0:36:41 | |
Not just...just, but merciful. | 0:36:41 | 0:36:45 | |
I'd like that. | 0:36:45 | 0:36:46 | |
I blow it all the time and I probably will die not having come close to it, | 0:36:46 | 0:36:51 | |
but I love it. | 0:36:51 | 0:36:53 | |
So that may help. | 0:36:53 | 0:36:55 | |
That may go down up in heaven on my side. | 0:36:55 | 0:36:58 | |
'How would you like us to remember you?' | 0:36:59 | 0:37:01 | |
As a...woman who is mostly funny, | 0:37:03 | 0:37:08 | |
cheerful, with some courage. | 0:37:08 | 0:37:12 | |
And who has enough courage to love somebody. | 0:37:15 | 0:37:18 | |
'Are you in love now?' | 0:37:19 | 0:37:20 | |
Yes! | 0:37:20 | 0:37:21 | |
Yes. | 0:37:23 | 0:37:25 | |
Yes, yes, yes! | 0:37:25 | 0:37:27 | |
Yes, I am in love. Yes! | 0:37:27 | 0:37:29 |