15/02/2013 The Review Show


15/02/2013

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Monday. Have a good weekend. A journey through five centuries in

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Cloud Atlas, David Mitchell's epic story turns into cinema. Why do we

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keep making the same mistakes over and over. Robert Lepage's new work

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sends a troop of actors up and under, forward and back, round and

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round. The life of Britten turned around again, this time with the

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manner of his death turned again. The The Sound and the Fury: A

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Century of Music brings music into the 20th sent treatment

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rulebook was torn up, let's make a noise nobody like. In the

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bicentinary celebrations who gets the panel's vote, Wagner or Verdi.

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Tonight I'm joined by the classical music critic of the Observer, Fiona

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Maddocks, Toby Spence and Mark Ravenhill. You can join in the

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conversation on Twitter. Cloud Atlas was David Mitchell's booker

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shortlisted epic that tells six stories, from a remote 19th century

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South Pacific island to a post apocalyptic future. Not an easy

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sell to Warner Brothers, but three directors imagined the narrative as

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one continuous thread. The film's six stories span different genres

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and periods. Unlike the book where each story is begun and resolved

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separately, the film weaves all the Strands together. Frequently

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jumping back and forth between narratives as key documents are

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passed from one story to inspire and pave the way for the next.

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What are you reading? Old letters. Why do you keep reading them?

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don't know, trying to understand why we keep making the same

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mistakes. Tom Hanks and Halle Berry are part of a stellar international

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cast. All of whom take on different roles across the six stories, a

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device designed to show how the same souls are reincarnated into

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different lives. Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others.

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:02:39.:02:42.

Past, and present. By each crime and every kindness, we birth our

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future. The film's critical reception has so far been decidedly

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mixed. It got no Oscar nomination, but topped the box-office chart in

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Russia and China, after a parallel release with Skyfall. But how is it

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going to play in the author's home country.

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Even just seeing that again you realise how much is measured into

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this film. -- meshed noo intoed film. You can say at least the

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Wachowski did the Matrix, so that helped. I watched this film again

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this morning, I had a hoot. It is so silly n a really joyful way. To

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see that cast keep on popping up with prosthetics and wigs and

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putting on all these voices and jumping between the different

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worlds. I thought it was a great, fantastic romp.

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Did it make any sense, Fiona? don't think sense comes into it. No,

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it was mad, it had all the stories, six stories that chopped up in

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every which way, like a Kaleidoscope. There were moments

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when you wanted to tear your hair off because it was too much, but it

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was also very funny at times. whole idea, as you run through six

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genres making this, every single story has a completely different

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look and feel? It is a beautifully textured film. All of these six

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streams of narrative that run through it are all given or

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presented in a way that matches the genre of the country it comes from.

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I felt that it was like a patchwork quilt. Did you find you had an

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emotional engagment with each story or not? Only a few of them. The

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ones that I engaged with were the English stories, really, the Jim

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Broadbent ones. They felt very foreign. They were meant to, I

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think. I worried was I just rooting for the home team. I think because

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you have to play these different characters, it is actually very

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theatrical. You have to find a theatrical way of playing it. I

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think Jim Broadbent and others had theatre experience, they were able

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to put on the wigs and things and find the emotional line. I thought

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more film-based actors like Tom Hanks and Halle Berry, struggled,

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they looked uneasy. You were conscious of the amount of make up?

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Hugh Grant especially. He was unrecoginsable. I was absorbed, we

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will show another clip in a moment, working out who was who in their

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different guises. Let's have a look at the characters in action against

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Tom Tykwer composed the music for Cloud Atlas Sextet. What did you

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make of it? The music worked for me. Did you see the film Perfume Skup

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where the music ran the whole way through, it was there as the sense

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of smell, the colour of the smell, he got the Berlin Philharmonic to

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play the score for that film. I think the music was as important in

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this film as well. It was restrained unlike one of those

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blockbusters, it didn't tell you how to think and feel t hung back

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nicely. The real coherence of the film was the music. Because just as

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you were thinking visually that you had gone to our 14th film of the

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day, and you were about to be completely confused, the music

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actually held it from scene-to- scene, because the music remained a

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constant. That whole story of Robert Frobisher? That is that

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beautiful moment in for once, where the music to transcend all music is,

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in fact, very beautiful music. still couldn't, I had a great time,

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I still couldn't really work it out. The film seemed to want to be

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telling me something, I really couldn't figure out quite what that

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was. Something to do with the interconnectedness of all things.

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Then it seemed to say sometimes we are interconnected because of love,

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and sometimes it seemed to say because of the choice we make. It

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seemed to have about 15 different thesis about the interconnectedness

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of it. Then, of course, there was particularly the Korean, the post-

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apocalyptic, you had this amazing Chinese star in it called Martin

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Bayfiled, perhaps that why it has Duna bay, she was supposed to be

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the autonomon, but she was great? Her performance was so wonderful.

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Even though the film slows down at the end. She starts as an android

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figure, and these enormous eyes fill up with tears, and you feel

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amazing about someone you had no sense of until that moment. Who is

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the film aimed at? In some ways it is a teenage film, in some ways it

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has a lot in common with the graphic novel. Some of the

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storylines are adult about ageing. I enjoyed the old aged caper movie

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that Broadbent broad found himself in. It is not a film for the Scots.

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How did you feel about that representation, I thought not

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minutes Mary pop pin's cock niece had a people been so caricatured in

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a film. Yes. Who do you think it is for. Is it an action movie, a bit

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of this and that. That is where it is so different from the novel in

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way. The idea of humanity and links between the past, present and

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future? The thing with the Wachowskis, their films feel like

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an indulgence for themselves, they make those films for themselves and

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not to appeal to anything other than aesthetic. They trust that.

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is not high-brow or low-brow it is no-brow, whatever that means F you

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want philosophy, it is the wrong film, if you want enjoyment, it is

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great money. You want enjoyment and have two-and-a-half hours to spare,

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Cloud Atlas opens next Friday. Expectations are always high when

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Robert Lepage mounts a new work, Playing Cards 1: Spades is one of

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four productions around a deck of cards. Central to the idea is the

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idea of a spherical rather than square performance. A 360 degree

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performance. French Canadian Robert Lepage has gained the reputation as

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one of theatre's bolder innovators, he has created opera, drama, circus,

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and film. Now he's giving audiences at the round house in London, a 360

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degree experience -- The Roundhouse in London, a 306 degree experience.

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It is set in 2003, as America invades Iraq.

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A disparate group of soldiers, gambling addicts, show girls and

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hotel workers have gathered in the gambling Mecca. Their stories,

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performed in a variety of languages explores everything from sex and

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As ever, with a Robert Lepage show, Spades fuses visually spectacular

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stages, with thought-provoking themes. But in trying to tackle the

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war on terror, has Lepage played an ace?

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I couldn't work out whether Robert Lepage was more interested in the

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story that the troop indeed workshoped and put together, or the

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staging? Yeah, he's so keyed into the technical aspect of what he

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does. You have worked with him a lot? I have worked with him three

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times. It is funny watching him direct in the studio. He's not very

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engaged with the text, or prescriptive with how to present it.

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But when it comes to, the technical rehearsals on the stage. He's so

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engaged, moving things around, bringing things in at very precise

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speeds. I saw that in this show. Did you find that was taking your

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attention too much? No, not at all. I was looking for it, I'm

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fascinated by his precision. Like Cloud Atlas, he has all these

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stories and people colliding, it is the same length of time, but it is

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on stage as opposed to a vast movie set. Did you like the way that he

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used Las Vegas as, that have the anchor for everything going on?

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don't think I particularly liked or disliked it. I think the strange

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thing about the whole experience was that I found it engaging, I

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found it absorbing while I was sitting there, but talk about

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deserts and oasis, for me it was a mirage. The further I have got from

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it a week on, I can't remember what I was engaged with. He does like to

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tick off the themes, so if somebody says earlier on I'm in palliative

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care, someone else says string theory, we find out there is a

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simulation for the Iraq War happening just outside Las Vegas.

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He's a manage buy pie, but -- magpie, but you want him to dig

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deeper. It was good given we were in Vegas and it was good on the

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slow ache of addiction. The sense of being addicted to gambling that

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earned its place. It was good on immigration and the Latino workers.

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There again with the beating heart I thought were the back workers.

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The reason I said about Las Vegas, it is the one place where nobody

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comes from. Everybody comes into Las Vegas, which is of itself a

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weird world. I wondered if he started with the idea of the town

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in the desert where the elite forces actually trained. That was

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actually quite a good idea for a play in itself. That is great image,

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we sort of follow this young soldier through to a sticky end.

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There is great leaps in his journey that aren't quite explored. He has

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to make many explicit and on the nose statements about the Iraq War,

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that don't feel earned, there is a much more gradual exploration of

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things like addiction. We got a hint at the beginning of what was

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in the centre of the story, without it being spelt out. It was done in

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mime. There was a wonderful set piece for the gambling, which was

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almost mesmeric, when all the different four sides, each with a

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gambling table came up. It was choreographed like a dance. It was

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equisite, and the centre piece of the whole evening for me. Along

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with the watering hole scene, we saw that clip there of them coming

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to the pool. A lot of the characters come to the pool like a

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watering hole in Africa, that is different animal, and then leave it

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and more come. You can't help being swept along by the technical skill

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of T I assumed there was a false floor, all the cast, there was six

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playing multiple character, were in this thing three metres tall, there

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was a series of tunnels underneath. On a technical level, the magic box

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rolls along fantastic. It was like you were having this swan on the

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water and paddling furiously underneath. I want to see the

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paddling, it was almost like a mirror image, and as part of the

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audience you would have liked half of you sitting. I would have paid

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to come back and watch the other side of it. It was a mixed trick,

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the staging and technical side of it was as much as the performance

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you were saying. You could enjoy it while you were there. Some bits

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were so clunky and the characters so unlovable. It was hard to know

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what you were responding to. There was one so laughable, the bit about

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the woman with the early menopause, you would have thought she had

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every terminal illness in the book. It is a wonder there are women her

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age walking around in the street. It was very heavy-handed. He's not

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very good at digging deep, either on a theme or character. I think it

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is part of the appeal, in a way, to his international audiences, is

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there are these very accessible spectacles. They are only one step

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of sophistication away from that themselves. You were talking about

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themes, this is to be an Eight Great Technologies-to-ten year

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project using the deck of cards. Hearts are to be superstition and

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magic, diamonds, business, trade and jewellery, clubs, working-class

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uprisings. All to be in the 360 degree. That is bettering a feat

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technically than this is going to be, he's going to have to hold

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pretty big stories together. don't think I will be rushing back

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to them. This was so much faster moving than the operas that one has

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seen him do. And I think that's why I was happy with it. I didn't mind

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the two-and-a-half hour length that a lot of people seemed to find very

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difficult. Would you be back for the other three suits? I think I

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would, I'm interested enough to see, but speculatively. I'm not drawn

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back there. I don't feel like I have to go. Would you go back?

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would go every time to enjoy the box of tricks. I'm unsatisfied, but

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I guess after the other three I would be dig a bit deeper. Give

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half the number of stories. Playing Cards 1: Spades runs at the

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Roundhouse in London until March 2nd. This year is the centinary of

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the birth of Benjamin Britten, it is being marked with performances

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an the world and a new biography by Paul Kildea. Recent discussion

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about the composer has tended to concentrate on his sexuality, and

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Kildea seeks to score with the instantly disputed assertion that

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syphilis played part in Brynhildr's death. More interesting is the awe

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:17:37.:17:37.

-- Britain as death. Brittan was born in 1913 by the sea.

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The son of a dentist and amateur musician. He began writing music as

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a child. And went on to become one of the greatest British composers

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of the 20th century. The Suffolk coast would play a significant part

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in his life and music. The sea and the environment pervading his

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compositions. I was always felt I wanted to live by the sea. I have

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tried living away from the sea, something has gone slightly wrong,

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I always felt. Much has been written about Britten

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in the past, but a new autobiography by Paul Kildea seeks

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to set him out in his original context. The songs that he wrote

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and his operas, the or kestral song cycles, displayed his real disquiet

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with human behaviour and themes of violence and betrayal, which he saw

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as peculiarly, not necessarily correctly, a 20th century

:18:37.:18:47.
:18:47.:18:48.

phenomenon. The book has initiated a flurry of debate about Britten's

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death, Kildea saying it was due to a sexually transmitted disease, a

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claim strongly refuted by Britten's own doctors. But this revelation is

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part of a larger excavation of Britain's sexuality, and its effect

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on his -- Britten's sexuality and its effect on his music. He felt

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uncomfortable being a gay man in a straight society. He felt very

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uncomfortable being a conscientious objector in a country at war. When

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he found himself more drawn to a Suffolk country lifestyle than

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anything London could offer. By that stage the behaviour was set

:19:23.:19:33.
:19:33.:19:40.

and remained with him for life. Britten is the third-most performed

:19:40.:19:46.

opera composer of the 20th century. With the Turn of the Screw, and

:19:46.:19:56.
:19:56.:19:57.

others still much add tired mired. -- admired.

:19:57.:20:01.

Should Britain or any composer be assessed in terms of their personal

:20:01.:20:08.

life. Could this year-long glut of Britten leave us with indigestion.

:20:08.:20:14.

It has been such a contrast, this book is incredibly scholarly, I

:20:14.:20:21.

think ref latery just about Britten, then it -- revelations about just

:20:21.:20:24.

Britten, and then it is like the tab Building Society revelations

:20:24.:20:29.

and it is case of who cares -- tabloid revelations, and it is case

:20:29.:20:34.

of who cares? There is a lot of people asking this question maybe a

:20:34.:20:38.

decade ago, is it possible Britten had syphilis, adding on but who

:20:38.:20:42.

cares. It is enough that he died, frankly, and left a huge amount of

:20:42.:20:50.

work. The book is very solid, it is a synoptic view of the letters, the

:20:50.:20:54.

diaries, the many publications that exist on Britten. It has everything

:20:54.:21:00.

you need, and it has five pages, I actually counted them, of which

:21:00.:21:04.

only half the pages are on the subject of syphilis. This is the

:21:04.:21:14.

only thing everybody is talking about. What did you find the most

:21:14.:21:19.

revalatory about Britten? It wasn't that, it was familiar to me but

:21:19.:21:25.

well ordered, which I found useful. I found Paul Kildea's exploration

:21:25.:21:28.

of the relationship between Britten and peers interesting, it was

:21:28.:21:33.

something I hadn't particularly thought about, how that divided

:21:33.:21:38.

into Britten being in Suffolk, writing, not wanting the flesh pots

:21:38.:21:45.

of London, which apparent low Piers slightly tended toward. He was more

:21:45.:21:50.

of a sypher in this. What is incredible is how little time they

:21:50.:21:53.

spent together. He was touring so much, the number of nights they

:21:53.:21:59.

spent together was pretty limited. That is a central problem for this

:21:59.:22:09.
:22:09.:22:10.

book for the biographer. There is another one that is very detailed

:22:10.:22:14.

and that covered all the ground. This is a well-written book, it is

:22:14.:22:20.

slightly more conversational than the Carpenter. That is very

:22:20.:22:23.

readable but this moves along easily and pans out to the social

:22:23.:22:28.

situation, and manages to be personal, without doing the

:22:28.:22:32.

annoying thing of "that morning he must have felt", the guessing thing

:22:32.:22:38.

that biographers do. We haven't discovered anything so big since

:22:38.:22:45.

Carpenter to justify a new biography. The publisher and that

:22:45.:22:52.

have had to focus on the syphilis issue to give it a novelty value. I

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like the way the author can say such and such is a terrific piece.

:22:57.:23:01.

I like his voice and he's a great writer. It is like Robert Hughes,

:23:01.:23:06.

that very high-handed evaluation of a worker of art. It is certainly a

:23:06.:23:12.

very confident work. It is a gritty read, I find. There is a whole

:23:12.:23:15.

central section, which I found the most fascinating n a way it says

:23:16.:23:25.
:23:26.:23:26.

little, it is really about the whole passism, it is the whole con

:23:26.:23:35.

shenous object -- conscientious objecter subject. I think he was

:23:35.:23:39.

niave and thought it was enough to be a composer but I don't want to

:23:39.:23:45.

go to war. But to accept a commission from jap nan in 1940?

:23:45.:23:50.

doesn't come -- Japan in 1940? Doesn't come out well in that

:23:50.:23:53.

respect. He himself said he was a child in an adult's body. His

:23:53.:23:59.

ability to think things through. Whether that was an excuse Oregan

:23:59.:24:02.

winly who he was. This does, it is not as developed as the political

:24:02.:24:06.

philosophy, that comes out more in this book than the other one. He

:24:06.:24:15.

did have this very imlimited, but very -- very limited but passionate

:24:15.:24:20.

belief in passiveism, that it was an essential part of human life,

:24:20.:24:25.

even when it was unIsrael isic. goes to Belsen in the months after

:24:25.:24:30.

the war, he plays for the survivors at Belsen, meanwhile there is

:24:30.:24:33.

bodies there, there is dreadful disease, soldiers all about. And it

:24:33.:24:43.
:24:43.:24:45.

comes back that maybe he absorbed the war. Kildea was saying it seems

:24:45.:24:49.

like Britain was saying that's what happens when you get war? I think

:24:49.:24:52.

it is what you say and do. He was unable to speak about that Belsen

:24:52.:24:57.

experience until late in his life, and only it a few close friend. He

:24:57.:25:01.

was the sort of person who couldn't speak about stuff but put it into

:25:01.:25:07.

the work. I think the work that's there is a lot of it is "post-

:25:07.:25:12.

Belsen" music. What do you think about that music? There is a

:25:12.:25:18.

definite change, the Holy Sonnets, there is a new gravitas, and

:25:18.:25:23.

poignancy, and a new seings relation to the depth of the texts

:25:23.:25:31.

he was choosing -- a new relation sensation of the depth of the texts

:25:31.:25:35.

he was choosing. What do you like? It was the poetry and the way it

:25:35.:25:42.

feeds into his music and inform as great depth of music. Maybe on the

:25:42.:25:45.

surface he seemed withdrawn from world affairs, and that the world

:25:45.:25:49.

affairs don't really touch his music. Actually, I think, the

:25:49.:25:54.

author of this book is very, very good at putting Britten into the

:25:54.:25:58.

context of the world. Up like any other book. Which is what he set

:25:58.:26:03.

out to do. To look at the 20th century? That is what I find quite

:26:03.:26:07.

awkward. He's writing it quite a lot as an outsider. Decribing an

:26:07.:26:13.

era that a lot of people still remember. He's Australian, and you

:26:13.:26:19.

get slightly uncomfortable senses of him constructing what it must

:26:19.:26:23.

have been like. For you, Britten what does he represent for you?

:26:23.:26:27.

Britten? Yes. I have lived with him all my life, in a sense, I wouldn't

:26:27.:26:34.

be doing what I do if it weren't for Britten, in fact. In what way?

:26:34.:26:41.

I heard Serenade for Ten Horn and Strings, which Toby sings often

:26:41.:26:44.

enough, when I was very young. I liked the relationship between the

:26:44.:26:47.

music and the poetry and the wildness of it. I wrote something

:26:47.:26:52.

about it t and here I am now. That is a short version. It doesn't mean

:26:52.:26:57.

I'm a worshipper. I have areas I really don't get on with, and I

:26:57.:27:01.

have areas that I think are absolutely marvellous, particularly

:27:01.:27:07.

the chamber music. I came to it a lot later in life, to me that is a

:27:07.:27:11.

profoundly queer artist. Pre-gay, definitely. I think the tension

:27:11.:27:15.

between, some people say the music is a little bit polished and

:27:15.:27:19.

perfect and organised. But I think that's to ignore the tension

:27:19.:27:25.

between the real darkness and corruption of innocence, supression

:27:25.:27:29.

of sexuality that is always underlying that slightly perfect

:27:29.:27:36.

music in places. And his rage. is a queer sensibility. If Benjamin

:27:36.:27:40.

Britten invented modern British music, he was riding on a wave

:27:40.:27:44.

generated by European and American proposers, The Sound and the Fury:

:27:44.:27:47.

A Century of Music began this week on BBC Four. Based on the book The

:27:47.:27:50.

Rest is Noise, by Alex Ross, it charts the rise of modernism and

:27:50.:27:55.

the way the 20th century changed the sound of music. What drove

:27:55.:28:00.

composers to tear up the classical rulebook and embrace the avant-

:28:00.:28:04.

garde. Modernism ruled over the first half of the 20th century, and

:28:05.:28:11.

didn't stop at painting or literature. Composers of the period

:28:11.:28:16.

were inspired by the ideology. was like music was in black and

:28:16.:28:20.

white, music like culture and civilisation in the west cannot

:28:20.:28:25.

stand still. The music was torn up, let's make a noise that nobody

:28:25.:28:31.

likes. If if the awence applaud your work, you had failed as a

:28:31.:28:41.

composer. The series takes as its starting point, Richard straws's

:28:41.:28:49.

brave opera Salome. It is the start of a music revolution. Debussi it

:28:49.:28:56.

the start of modern music S he's very ambitious, he said I must

:28:56.:29:01.

invent music worthy of the motorcar and planes and the Eiffel Tower.

:29:01.:29:07.

George Benjamin is one of many contemporary composers, including

:29:07.:29:15.

Philip Glass and John Adams. The Wrecking Ball, the subtitle of

:29:15.:29:22.

the first episode was shone shone. After his string -- Schoenberg.

:29:22.:29:29.

After his performance in 1908, one critic shouted "stop it, enough".

:29:29.:29:34.

have never found a way into loving it. I find it centrally very

:29:34.:29:42.

punishing to my ear. But account narrative format of the series

:29:42.:29:46.

shatter the mystique that surrounds 20th century music and the avant-

:29:46.:29:54.

garde. Toby, is this the way to put modern

:29:54.:29:57.

music in front of everybody, to a television audience? It is

:29:57.:30:02.

certainly a way. It worked for me. The footage, the archive material

:30:02.:30:06.

is just great. And the people that they have gone to, to interview, to

:30:07.:30:14.

bring the music to life, it is just an A-list cast. It is fantastic.

:30:14.:30:19.

loved hearing John Adams saying this did not work for me, it was

:30:19.:30:22.

unemotional, you think of John Adams as being this supreme mix of

:30:22.:30:27.

the modern and tonal as well? love the irreverence and the

:30:27.:30:31.

honesty that comes out of people. What due make of it? I wish it had

:30:32.:30:37.

been 12 programme, there was so many contributers that only managed

:30:37.:30:44.

12 seconds and what a cast list, the archive material is excellent.

:30:44.:30:49.

The narration simplified a very complicated history of music in the

:30:49.:30:53.

20th century. Alex Ross was very much a central part of this as well.

:30:53.:30:59.

There is quite a lot of Alex Ross in it? He's one of the experts, as

:30:59.:31:05.

it were. I felt there was so many, how marvellous to have Schoenberg's

:31:05.:31:08.

daughter sitting there and saying the problem with music is people

:31:08.:31:12.

always want it to be old, they don't like the new in music,

:31:13.:31:19.

against all other art forms people hate the new, or are resistant to

:31:19.:31:23.

it. Did it do it for you? somebody gave me Alex Ross's book

:31:23.:31:29.

as a birthday present I thought it was fantastic. I thought it was a

:31:29.:31:33.

real bastardisation of the book. don't think it was the book. It

:31:33.:31:37.

didn't seem like that at all. book can take anybody who is keen

:31:37.:31:40.

reader through the 20th century and excite us about the music. This

:31:40.:31:46.

didn't know where to start. First of all it told us Salome started

:31:46.:31:49.

everything, and then it flicked back and it is then no, we have it

:31:49.:31:54.

wrong, Schoenberg. Where are we starting, you are telling us there

:31:54.:31:57.

is a massive rupture and everything changes and three different places

:31:57.:32:02.

dotted about. Where it was best was at the micro. One phrase of

:32:02.:32:06.

Schoenberg, a word setting, and the use of dissonance, and focusing

:32:06.:32:09.

closely on things like that. I thought the more it tried to be big,

:32:09.:32:13.

the more it was embarrassing. There was one moment we were told, the

:32:13.:32:18.

20th century was so momentous, we had some communist, we had lit

:32:18.:32:26.

letter hall lueting and -- saluting and the atom bomb. It had a central

:32:26.:32:29.

problem that said everything changed one day, that is clearly

:32:29.:32:33.

nonsense. It is like buses, you wait for one and two come along.

:32:33.:32:41.

This is on BBC Four, on BBC Two on Saturday night is Howard Goodall's?

:32:41.:32:46.

That is the one to watch. No. like The Good Father good because

:32:46.:32:50.

it is authored, it is honest. It doesn't say it is "it" story, he

:32:50.:32:56.

says it is "my" story, he starts and you it is like the embarrassing

:32:56.:33:03.

teacher saying music is fun. And then with great intelligence and

:33:03.:33:07.

parallels he takes us through the history of music. The story of

:33:08.:33:12.

music, successive waves of discoveries, breakthroughs and

:33:12.:33:19.

invention is an on going process. The next great leap forward may

:33:19.:33:23.

take place in a back street in Beijing or in a pub in South

:33:23.:33:33.
:33:33.:33:34.

Shields. # Can't read my

:33:34.:33:39.

# no he can't read my # Poker face

:33:39.:33:47.

Why have you got a problem with that? I just don't like the

:33:47.:33:54.

impolicity of it. It just feels wrong to me. I think that what --

:33:54.:33:58.

simplicity of it, it just feels wrong to me. It is trying to boil

:33:58.:34:03.

it down to component parts, and what he misses is the mystery, the

:34:03.:34:08.

composures like Bach, Mozart and Britten, they wrote bad pieces and

:34:08.:34:11.

didn't know why. How Goodall is saying this is the mechanics of

:34:12.:34:15.

music, it is too simple. I don't think that is what he's doing at

:34:15.:34:22.

all. For one thing, he's such a versatile musician that he can show

:34:22.:34:28.

you really difficult concepts that I think aren't easy to talk about

:34:28.:34:32.

on television, but things like the circle of fifths, which is really

:34:32.:34:35.

hard Baroque music, while we recognise what is going on. He can

:34:35.:34:39.

sit there and demonstrate, and also, really, if there is somebody on the

:34:39.:34:44.

television playing something in four different keys, I'm

:34:44.:34:49.

entertained. He has more time and more episodes. He is showing the

:34:49.:34:54.

keyboards and explaining how things work in a musical way. He's able to

:34:54.:34:58.

present a bit of history. He just engaging me as a person. I couldn't

:34:58.:35:02.

quite, although the book is so clearly written by Alex Ross, I

:35:02.:35:06.

couldn't work out who this TV series was authored by. There was

:35:06.:35:10.

the interviews and that. I just felt a bit floaty as though I

:35:10.:35:13.

didn't know who was telling me the story. You preferred Howard Goodall

:35:13.:35:23.
:35:23.:35:24.

taking you through it. No. He gets it. No. He does get it from me.

:35:24.:35:27.

second episode of The Sound and the Fury: A Century of Music is on BBC

:35:27.:35:30.

Four on Tuesday. The next installment of Howard Goodall's

:35:30.:35:38.

Story of Music is on BBC Two tomorrow night. Britten is not the

:35:38.:35:44.

only composer being celebrated, it is the bicentinary of Richard

:35:44.:35:48.

Wagner and Giuseppe Verdi in the opera world. Despite being born

:35:48.:35:55.

just a few months apart in 1813, Wagner and Verdi found themselves

:35:55.:36:00.

polar opposites on their outlook of art and life, and left us two very

:36:00.:36:05.

different catalogues of work. Verdi's been seen as an operatic

:36:05.:36:11.

therapist, who wanted to provide comfort for the human spirit. A

:36:11.:36:14.

tolerant man, he had a grudging admiration for his German

:36:14.:36:24.

contemporary. Wagner, on the other hand, did not grant the Italian the

:36:24.:36:29.

same level of respect. He presented his Titanic works to the world,

:36:29.:36:35.

with a messianic zeal, and believed his music might even drive men mad.

:36:35.:36:45.
:36:45.:36:52.

But Wagner could do sublime love And Verdi, in turn, didn't shy away

:36:52.:37:01.

from marshall bomb bast. Both men had an undeniably huge

:37:01.:37:04.

impact on the history of music. Does either of them deserve the

:37:04.:37:12.

title of the Greatest Opera Composer of All Time.

:37:12.:37:16.

So, Fiona, maybe it is impossible for me to ask you this,ly ask any

:37:17.:37:22.

way. If you had to plump -- I will ask it any way, if you had to plump,

:37:22.:37:29.

Verdi or Wagner? Wagner, because he's a monster who wants to do

:37:30.:37:36.

something big and a makes you struggle. Is it because it has an

:37:36.:37:42.

emotional punch? Yes, but you don't get it immediately Verdi is a

:37:42.:37:45.

genius, without question. We know the tunes? It appeals to you.

:37:45.:37:49.

have to have a lot of hours for Wagner? I don't have a lot of hours,

:37:49.:37:53.

but I have sat in a lot of Opera Houses and listened to a lot of

:37:53.:37:57.

Wagner. I never want to be anywhere else, at the end of a Ring Cycle

:37:57.:38:07.
:38:07.:38:07.

I'm ready to start again. Mad, I know. Wagner or Verdi I'm waiting

:38:07.:38:11.

for the Wagner conversion moment, I have worked on a couple of Verdi

:38:11.:38:15.

operas, at first you hear the ice- cream advert, the more you dig into

:38:15.:38:21.

it, the more I realised the depth of psychology and emotion and

:38:21.:38:25.

complexity about this stuff. I think he's the greatest musical

:38:25.:38:29.

dramatist, he's up there with Shakespeare as a creator of theatre,

:38:29.:38:38.

so I find Wagner still boring. this is a difficult one for you?

:38:38.:38:41.

Not so difficult. Luckily we don't really have to make the choice. We

:38:41.:38:46.

do have both. So they are both magnificent, I'm so glad we have

:38:46.:38:51.

both. Your favourite roles within them? I can't do Verdi and I can do

:38:51.:38:54.

Wagner. It would have to be Wagner for me. Why would you feel you

:38:54.:39:00.

couldn't do Verdi? Because I sound like a tourist when I'm singing in

:39:00.:39:06.

Italian, I sound like "can I have a pizza please". Verdi would find

:39:06.:39:12.

that OK, he was hum moreous? Other people don't -- Humourous? Other

:39:12.:39:16.

people don't, it is not authentic. If I was to ask who is your

:39:16.:39:24.

favourite, who would you choose in the world? I would choose

:39:24.:39:30.

Montiverdi, or Albanberg, they wrote fewer operas than Wagner and

:39:30.:39:40.
:39:40.:39:43.

Verdi, but they are the ones. Chiekofs ski. I would I --

:39:43.:39:49.

ycovski. Wagner. That is to my chests, Fiona Maddocks, Gianluca

:39:49.:39:55.

Grava and Toby Spence, more details about tonight's items are on the

:39:55.:40:00.

website. Next year I'm here with an Oscar special discussing

:40:00.:40:04.

nominations of the glam mouse award ceremonies. Now we have Jamie

:40:04.:40:08.

McDermott of the Irrepressible, accompanied by Connor Mitchell with

:40:08.:40:16.

one of Benjamin Britten's cabaret songs.

:40:16.:40:22.

A day late for Valentine's. # Some say love is a little boy

:40:22.:40:26.

# Some say it is a bird # Some say it makes the world go

:40:26.:40:29.

round # Some say that's absurd

:40:29.:40:36.

# But when I ask the man next door # Who looked as if he knew

:40:36.:40:46.
:40:46.:40:49.

# His wife was very cross indeed # And said that wouldn't do

:40:49.:40:56.

# Does it look like a pair of pyjamas

:40:56.:41:00.

# Or the ham in the temperance hotel

:41:00.:41:10.
:41:10.:41:11.

# Tell me the truth about love # Does its oder remind one of Lamas

:41:11.:41:21.
:41:21.:41:22.

# Or has it a comforting smile # Tell me the truth about love

:41:22.:41:27.

# Is it prickley to touch # As the hedges

:41:27.:41:34.

# And soft as an eiderdown fluff # Is it soft and smooth at the

:41:34.:41:37.

edges # Tell me the truth about love

:41:37.:41:47.
:41:47.:41:48.

# You are feel -- your feelings when you meet it

:41:48.:41:54.

# I'm told you can forget # I sought it since I was a child

:41:54.:42:03.

# But I haven't found it yet # I'm getting on for 35

:42:03.:42:12.

# But still I do not know # What kind of creature it can be

:42:13.:42:22.
:42:23.:42:23.

# That bothers people so # When it comes

:42:23.:42:29.

# Will it come without warning # Just as I'm picking my nose

:42:29.:42:36.

# Oh tell me the truth about love # Will it knock

:42:37.:42:41.

# On my door # In the morning

:42:41.:42:50.

# Oh step on the bus on my toes # Or tell me the truth about love

:42:50.:42:55.

# Will it come like a change in the weather

:42:55.:43:00.

# Will its greeting be courteous # Or bluff

:43:00.:43:02.

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