PPI Claims Don't Get Done Get Dom


PPI Claims

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I've been fighting your consumer battles for years now,

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but the same old problems just keep flooding in.

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And it's all the usual suspects - poor customer service, faulty goods

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and hidden small print.

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No wonder some of you are fed up with the way you're being treated.

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The most frustrating thing about being a customer in the UK

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is the lack of customer service.

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Do you know what really grinds my gears?

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When I place an order and the company get it wrong

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and I have to call them back

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and I have to tell them they've got it wrong.

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It's just...

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I couldn't agree more. Things need to change

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and we're on a mission to get companies to treat us better.

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I'll be taking on your cases

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and fighting your fight with the big companies.

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Once he realises exactly what I'm fighting here,

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I'll be very surprised if he wants to argue with me.

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And I'll be showing you how to shop smart and stay one step ahead.

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There have been cases where those people have been very naughty

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and said, "We never received it."

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So, remember...

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-Don't Get Done...

-Get Dom.

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Coming up on today's show -

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one woman's battle against a claims management company

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who want their cut of a payment protection insurance refund.

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At what point did you realise how serious this was getting?

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When we received a debt recovery letter.

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We've got some inside knowledge for you on dodgy damp-proof specialists...

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It's not usually a surveyor that comes round,

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it's a salesman with a moisture meter

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trying to convince you that you've got a damp problem,

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even though you probably weren't aware of it

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before you took the cold call.

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..and Rani Price hits the streets

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to find out if you, the Great British public,

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are in the wrong about your consumer rights.

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Who's in the right - you or them?

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Well, I would hope it would be me, but it very rarely goes that way.

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Wouldn't we all love it if we suddenly found out

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that we were owed some money?

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Well, that's exactly what's been happening to the thousands of people

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who were mis-sold payment protection insurance, or PPI,

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over the last couple of years.

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But it seems claiming back mis-sold PPI

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isn't as straightforward as it could be.

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Just ask Shirley Sproule,

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whose attempts to claim back PPI have caused her no end of hassle.

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It began in November 2011,

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when she employed the services

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of claims management specialists Elsworth Associates

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to help her reclaim mis-sold PPI on several loans from Lloyds TSB.

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I was just sat at home just watching the TV

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and the telephone rang

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and it was a guy offering PPI claims, and did I know about it?

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I said yes.

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Payment protection insurance, or PPI,

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is sold by lenders alongside credit cards and loans

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to cover repayments should a borrower be unable to work

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due to sickness or redundancy.

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Many policies were mis-sold because customers didn't need it,

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or were not aware it had been included

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in their loan repayments at all.

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Shirley had taken out several loans with her bank, Lloyds TSB,

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and Elsworth Associates told her they could help claim a refund.

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He said, "You've nothing to worry about."

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He said it wouldn't affect my credit rating or anything.

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And I said, "OK, right, I'll go for it, then."

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And he said that he would arrange for someone to come and speak to us,

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so that's what happened.

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The Elsworth representative came to Shirley's home

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to formalise the agreement,

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and she signed a contract

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agreeing to pay the company 25% of any mis-sold PPI

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they helped her win from Lloyds TSB.

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Elsworth then wrote to Lloyds

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informing them they were taking on the claim.

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We hadn't heard from Elsworth for nearly two months

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and we thought, "We're not going to get anything."

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And then a few days later we got the letter from Lloyds TSB.

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The letter was an offer for £984.98

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as a PPI refund for two loans held with the bank.

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We sent the cheque off to Elsworth for their 25% fee

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and we thought, well, that was fair enough,

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that wasn't too big an amount to pay somebody.

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I sent a thank-you letter on March 1st,

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thanking them for their service

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and saying that I would recommend them to friends.

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I sent that letter off

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and thought that would be the last I would hear from Elsworth.

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The thank-you letter also terminated the contract with Elsworth.

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But two months later,

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Shirley and her husband came across more eligible loans with Lloyds TSB,

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so started the claims process again

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and their hard work paid off big time.

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We eventually got £13,088.90, which we were over the moon with,

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because that's a lot of money to us.

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But their joy wasn't to last.

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Just a week after receiving the letter from Lloyds,

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the Sproules received an invoice from Elsworth

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for 25% of this new figure, to the sum of £3,926.68.

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How did Elsworth know about this if Shirley had made the claim herself?

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Well, it appears the bank

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had kept the claims management company in the loop.

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When we received the letter from Elsworth we were both angry

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and we phoned them up and said, "No, you're not entitled to this money.

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"You didn't do anything for it."

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So Shirley and husband Martin are left with the bill

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of nearly £4,000 from Elsworth,

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and both parties think the money is rightfully theirs.

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I'm about to meet up with Shirley,

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who's come all the way down from bonnie Scotland

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to tell me about her woes.

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I'm quite looking forward to this, because I love a Scottish accent.

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'Now, with the PPI scandal,

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'claims management companies have been in the spotlight

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'and I'm interested initially in Shirley's first impressions

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'of Elsworth Associates.'

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So, let's talk about Elsworth.

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As far as you were concerned, how happy were you with their service?

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To begin with, I was really happy with their service.

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We managed to get just under £1,000 back,

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that wasn't as much as what I was expecting,

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but it was £1,000 that I didn't have before

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so I was fairly happy.

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So what happened after then?

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Because it said in the letter

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that that was the final response from Lloyds TSB, I thought,

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"Well, that's it, that's what we're going to get."

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So, because I had read through the terms and conditions of Elsworth,

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I was free to terminate the contract,

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which, after I had paid Elsworth their 25%,

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that's what I did.

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You sent the letter in?

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-I sent the letter in.

-Was it an email?

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-No, it was a written letter.

-Did you record-delivery that letter?

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-No, I didnae.

-Give me your hand, give me your hand.

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-You're a naughty girl, aren't you?

-I know!

-Naughty girl!

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You've got to record-delivery anything that's official like that,

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or have some sort of paper trace of it.

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An email's great because you can trace it back through your sent box

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and they can obviously find it in their inbox.

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But the old postal service, although it probably was delivered,

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-you have no proof of that.

-No.

-Right, mistake number one.

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But at least she did take a photocopy of the letter.

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Now, I need to find out every last detail of what has gone on,

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starting with these other loans Elsworth seem to have missed.

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Shirley found out about these

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from bank staff at her local Lloyds branch when she popped in.

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He said, "Had you heard of PPI?"

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And I said, "Of course I've heard of PPI, I've claimed."

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He says, "What did you claim on?"

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I said, "Well, a company got us a claim back on two loans."

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And he says, "Oh, no, you've got far more than two loans."

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I says, "Oh, right."

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So he very generously gave me a list of loans and credit cards,

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gave me the phone number that I was to phone Lloyds TSB on.

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And it was after being given this list

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that the couple went ahead

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and made a claim for the rest of the mis-sold PPI

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directly with Lloyds TSB.

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And although they didn't seem to have any involvement

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in these additional claims,

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Elsworth still believe they are entitled to their 25% fee.

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So how much are they trying to claim back from you now?

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-It's roughly about £4,000.

-Wow.

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I mean, big wow.

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'But it gets worse.'

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At what point did you realise how serious this was getting?

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When we received a debt recovery letter. Because that's really scary.

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They are.

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Not a great fan of them.

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'It was nearly two months after terminating the Elsworth contract

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'that Shirley discovered other loans.

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'But I'm interested in exactly why

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'she thinks their invoice for this second claim is unfair.'

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How much effort have you put in yourself

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trying to get this money back?

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We were phoning every week to two weeks

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just to keep on top of them,

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because they kept saying, no, they weren't going to pay out,

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they weren't going to pay out.

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Now, that was from April 21st

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and we never got the loan offer until July 5th.

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So, to me, that was a lot of our time.

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Now tell me what you'd like me to do for you.

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I'd like you to contact Elsworth and put the case to them,

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because I've written numerous letters to them,

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they answer them, but they don't answer every question

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that I've put in the letter.

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So we just thought that if anybody can get to them, you can.

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There's three people here - you, Elsworth and Lloyds.

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And I just need to get to the bottom of it

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and tidy it all up and see what we get.

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-Yep, no problem.

-Lovely.

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I'll be catching up with you soon.

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Shirley has definitely got a bit of a sticky situation on her hands,

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that's for certain.

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It's also her first time ever in London,

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so let's hope this visit is a very memorable one,

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but for the right reasons.

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Getting to the bottom of this case

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is going to mean speaking to not one, but two companies.

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First is Elsworth Associates, they're based in Blackburn

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and regulated by the Ministry of Justice

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to provide services and claims management.

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They say they run an efficient and quality service to their clients

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on a "no win, no fee" basis

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and promise to keep in touch throughout the claims process.

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Then there's banking giant Lloyds TSB,

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part of the Lloyds Banking Group,

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which is 43% government-owned.

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According to consumer group Which?,

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they had more PPI complaints than any other bank.

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And having done my background research on the companies,

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one of the main questions is

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whether or not the original claim was closed.

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Elsworth say it wasn't, but Shirley thought it was

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and she says Lloyds confirmed this to her.

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Time for my first call.

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The thing is about Shirley's claim here is, who do I go to first?

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Elsworth or Lloyds? It's a flip of a coin, so I'll go with Lloyds.

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'I get through to the PPI Reclaims Helpline

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'and I'm told to send a letter of authority

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'in order for me to act on behalf of the Sproules.

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'That's standard procedure.

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'In addition, Shirley's convinced

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'Lloyds will have recordings of phone calls she made to them

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'to open a new PPI refund claim

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'unconnected to the claim started by Elsworth.

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'I'm hoping Lloyds can provide these recordings.'

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I'll get the letter of authority over to you

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and then I shall give you a call back.

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Thanks very much. Bye-bye.

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'Next up, Elsworth Associates.'

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'I get through to the General Manager,

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'who doesn't want her voice used.

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'I explain that Shirley Sproule was initially happy

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'with the service Elsworth provided.'

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She wrote you a letter congratulating your service

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on March 1st, 2012.

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In that letter, she also asked you

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to cancel her contract with yourselves.

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I'm really hoping they have evidence of this,

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but I'm told they don't have the specifics to hand just yet.

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She also mentions that they operate a catch-all policy,

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so they don't miss any loans.

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When you put a claim in with one particular lender -

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let's say, hypothetically, Lloyds - on behalf of a customer,

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how long will it be before they give you all the relevant information

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about various different loans? I'm not asking for an exact date,

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just the approximate amount of time it would take.

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'I'm informed that lenders should normally respond within five days,

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'but that sometimes things take longer

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'and something definitely went wrong in this case,

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'because it was over half a year

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'before the other loans came to light.'

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After she disengaged your services

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and confirmed with Lloyds that you were no longer involved,

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she put a claim in in May this year.

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You're talking about seven months later.

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Obviously until Lloyds had told you about this claim,

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I can probably safely assume you didn't know about it.

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You probably didn't have any involvement in it,

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so we are talking about a subsequent claim seven months later.

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Shirley and her husband are adamant they did all the legwork

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and Elsworth say if that was the case

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they wouldn't expect the money.

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But if the company were directly involved

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they would expect to be paid their fee, which is fair enough.

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I can't wait to see what both companies come back with,

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but I've got a funny feeling this case is far from clear cut.

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It would seem pretty obvious that it's...

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it's almost certainly something that you're not entitled to.

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I'm Rani Price and there's nothing I like better

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than helping you, the buying public,

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through the minefield of regulations to make sure you stay savvy shoppers.

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'Now, consumer law can be very confusing.

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'You've got your Sale Of Goods Act, Distance Selling, Right To Return,

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'and it doesn't stop there, but knowing just a few of these laws

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'can save you not only money, but a lot of hassle as well.'

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Would you mind chatting to us for a couple of minutes?

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'Today, I'm out on the streets, armed with questions to put to you,

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'the buying public, to find out if you know

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'your consumer rights from your consumer wrongs.'

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When we think of utilities, we think of the main three -

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gas, electricity and water - but what about the internet?

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After all, we rely on it more and more,

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so do you know your rights when it comes to your internet connection?

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Internet service providers often try to attract

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customers by advertising certain speeds

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and we all want the fastest connection for the best price,

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but what if your surfing isn't as swift as you'd hoped?

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Say, for example, you went to your internet provider and said,

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"I want you to guarantee that I'll get 8Mb per second,"

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and they said, "Actually, we're not going to guarantee it,

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"we'll say up to 8Mb," would you take on the deal?

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Yes, I did, unfortunately.

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THEY LAUGH

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Did they say "up to" or did they guarantee it?

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No, no, they didn't guarantee it at all.

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Let's say you want 9Mb and they say,

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"Well, it's up to 9Mb, we can't guarantee it," what do you do?

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Er, to be honest, I would probably look somewhere else,

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but I've been checking companies in the beginning

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and this company that I have right now,

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they did guarantee between 9 and 16.

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So that's what it is -

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they can guarantee between a certain amount,

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but they can't guarantee you will definitely have 9Mb every day

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or you will definitely have 16Mb every day.

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'So it seems we're all looking for a guarantee,

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'but let's see what our Trading Standards expert has to say

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'about guaranteed connection speeds.'

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Everybody should expect the speed that's advertised,

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BUT you need to look at what really is being advertised.

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When they say, for example, 8Mb or whatever,

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they're saying "up to" and the "up to" is the key information.

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How many people in your house are using the internet at the same time,

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how far your house is from the main point of

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broadband connection for that service provider,

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how many people are sharing that line, for example?

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These things will really affect the speed of the broadband.

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But what if your connection was consistently lower than

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the advertised megabyte speed? Can you escape your contract?

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Let's say, for example, you went for the 8Mb

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and after a while of using it, you realised it was just slow,

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in fact you were more likely getting 5Mb per second, OK?

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So now you're annoyed and you phone up the company and go,

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-"I'm not happy!"

-I'd go for another company.

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Well, you're still in your contract.

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-I'm in that position right now.

-Oh!

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Yeah, I won't mention the company,

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but I did buy and they did say 8Mb and it's very, very slow

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and the TV package that I have is very bad,

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so I want to go back to them and change it,

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but I know in the contract it says that

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I cannot get out of it until my contract is up.

0:16:430:16:46

You complain and you say, "I'm sorry, it's not fast enough.

0:16:460:16:49

"Can I change contracts, cos it's not really working out?

0:16:490:16:54

"Either bring the price down or go to 8Mb,"

0:16:540:16:56

and they say to you, "No, you can't

0:16:560:16:59

"because you signed a contract for a year." Can they do that?

0:16:590:17:02

-Er, small print, they can, I guess.

-But who's in the right - you or them?

0:17:040:17:09

I would hope it would be me, but it very rarely goes that way.

0:17:090:17:13

'So none of these guys think they could get out of a contract

0:17:130:17:16

'if their internet connection was constantly slower than promised,

0:17:160:17:19

'but are they right?'

0:17:190:17:21

If you agreed on 8Mb, then you can actually get out of your contract

0:17:210:17:25

and they need to provide you with a different contract,

0:17:250:17:28

so you could maybe say, "Well, I'll do 5Mb per second,

0:17:280:17:32

-"but I'll be paying at a cheaper rate."

-OK.

0:17:320:17:35

So you can change your contract.

0:17:350:17:37

Ofcom now says, you know, that's what you should be allowed to do

0:17:370:17:40

because you're not getting what you signed up for.

0:17:400:17:44

'Great. So new regulations mean consumers do have a leg to stand on

0:17:440:17:48

'if constantly let down, but where do we stand with downloading?'

0:17:480:17:55

Your internet has slowed down.

0:17:550:17:58

You call the internet company

0:17:580:18:00

and they say, "Actually, we slowed it down

0:18:000:18:02

"because you have gone over your download limit."

0:18:020:18:06

Can they do this?

0:18:060:18:08

I really don't know.

0:18:090:18:10

If they're saying you can only have so much a month,

0:18:130:18:16

then perhaps they're right, but I don't know.

0:18:160:18:21

They shouldn't be able to.

0:18:210:18:23

They're giving you a little, you know, tap on the back of your hand.

0:18:230:18:26

I think they should have told me up front.

0:18:260:18:29

Do you think they can penalise you

0:18:290:18:31

by making your internet connection slower?

0:18:310:18:33

They can stop your internet

0:18:330:18:35

until you've got a new limit for a new month, or I don't know...

0:18:350:18:38

I'm not quite sure, to be honest.

0:18:380:18:40

'You can be penalised in various ways

0:18:410:18:44

'for exceeding what you've agreed to, but to what extent?'

0:18:440:18:48

If you go over your download limit, your internet service provider

0:18:480:18:51

cannot charge you a random penalty amount.

0:18:510:18:54

What they can do is charge you a reasonable amount

0:18:540:18:56

that reflects the cost of this extra service they have provided you.

0:18:560:19:00

So the next time you choose your internet package,

0:19:000:19:03

you know where you stand.

0:19:030:19:05

I'm on the case to help Shirley Sproule from Dumfries

0:19:090:19:13

who, in November 2011

0:19:130:19:14

asked claims management company, Elsworth Associates,

0:19:140:19:18

to help her reclaim mis-sold PPI on several loans with Lloyds TSB.

0:19:180:19:23

After receiving some money back from Lloyds on two of the loans,

0:19:230:19:26

she paid Elsworth their 25% fee

0:19:260:19:28

and says she wrote them a letter to cancel the contract,

0:19:280:19:32

but then Lloyds TSB told her she had more loans with them

0:19:320:19:36

and Shirley and her husband then fought for four months

0:19:360:19:40

to finally claim a refund on more PPI to the value of £13,088.

0:19:400:19:45

But Elsworth want a cut of the money.

0:19:450:19:48

There was quite a number of letters went back and fore with me

0:19:480:19:51

trying to explain to them that I'd cancelled the agreement,

0:19:510:19:55

it was a separate claim.

0:19:550:19:56

'I've decided a good place to start would be to find out

0:19:570:20:01

'what both Elsworth and Lloyds have to say.

0:20:010:20:03

'I've already put calls into both companies to get the ball rolling.

0:20:030:20:07

'I've also requested recordings of phone calls between Lloyds TSB

0:20:070:20:10

'and Shirley because she says she was told by them

0:20:100:20:13

'the original claim was closed, hence opening up a new one.

0:20:130:20:17

'So it's time to call Lloyds again to follow up.'

0:20:170:20:20

Is it possible to actually speak to the line manager?

0:20:200:20:24

Thank you.

0:20:240:20:26

'After being put on hold for nine minutes,

0:20:290:20:31

'I finally get through to the line manager within PPI reclaims.'

0:20:310:20:35

There was three conversations made and I have the dates and times,

0:20:350:20:39

so if I could give you those, if I could request a recording,

0:20:390:20:42

I'd appreciate it.

0:20:420:20:44

I've already sent you the letter of authority.

0:20:440:20:46

I've been unable to get what I would class as

0:20:460:20:49

a decent conversation with Lloyds' PPI helpline.

0:20:490:20:53

However, they've told me to call their press department.

0:20:530:20:56

Perhaps they'll be able to help.

0:20:560:20:58

I'll get that to you this afternoon, shall I?

0:20:580:21:02

And you. Bye-bye.

0:21:020:21:04

The world of PPI claims has been a pretty hot topic

0:21:070:21:10

over the past couple of years with scores of companies emerging

0:21:100:21:14

to try and help us claim our money back.

0:21:140:21:16

Of course, the benefit of choosing one of these firms is that,

0:21:160:21:19

in theory, you don't need to lift a finger

0:21:190:21:21

and one day a cheque will come through the post

0:21:210:21:24

with your PPI refund,

0:21:240:21:25

but what do we consumers need to know about signing up

0:21:250:21:28

with a PPI claim firm?

0:21:280:21:30

Well, one organisation who can tell us is the Ministry Of Justice,

0:21:300:21:34

as PPI claims firms are regulated by them.

0:21:340:21:38

When a consumer is contracting with a claims management company

0:21:380:21:41

to bring a claim against a bank,

0:21:410:21:42

it's important the consumers read the detail of what service

0:21:420:21:46

they'll be providing and when the fee for that service is due,

0:21:460:21:48

because if a consumer decides to stop using

0:21:480:21:51

the service of the company before the resolution of the claim,

0:21:510:21:55

then that company can still take money off you for the fee

0:21:550:21:58

because you've started a process with them,

0:21:580:22:00

are contracted with them, so consumers must read

0:22:000:22:02

the details of the contract before they sign up for that company.

0:22:020:22:06

But Shirley did read the terms and conditions,

0:22:060:22:10

which is why she sent a letter to cancel her contract.

0:22:100:22:13

If a consumer wants to withdraw

0:22:130:22:14

from a contract with a claims management company,

0:22:140:22:17

or at the end of a claim to make sure they have

0:22:170:22:19

no further fees due, they should write to the company

0:22:190:22:21

under recorded delivery to make sure the company knows that fully.

0:22:210:22:25

Yep, as I told Shirley, this was her one massive mistake,

0:22:250:22:29

but surely Elsworth have obligations too?

0:22:290:22:33

After Elsworth received the cut of the first payout to the Sproules,

0:22:330:22:36

they sent no indication they were pursuing the case further,

0:22:360:22:39

so it's understandable that Shirley thought her cancellation letter

0:22:390:22:42

had been received and she continued to make her own claim,

0:22:420:22:46

as any of us are perfectly entitled to do.

0:22:460:22:49

Consumers who are thinking of making a claim

0:22:490:22:52

for mis-sold Payment Protection Insurance

0:22:520:22:55

can easily do it themselves if they want to.

0:22:550:22:57

Although the length of the claim's process

0:22:570:22:59

is in the hands of the banks,

0:22:590:23:01

the banks don't respond more quickly to companies,

0:23:010:23:04

solicitors than they do consumers.

0:23:040:23:06

But banks do have a big responsibility.

0:23:060:23:09

Banks, when they receive a claim from a consumer

0:23:090:23:11

or a claims management company, are duty-bound to ensure

0:23:110:23:14

they investigate what products that consumer was sold at what time.

0:23:140:23:19

And Shirley's bank certainly did that.

0:23:190:23:22

I need to get to the bottom of the contract

0:23:220:23:24

with Elsworth being terminated,

0:23:240:23:26

and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they received Shirley's letter.

0:23:260:23:30

Time for my next phone call to their general manager,

0:23:300:23:33

who chooses not to have her voice used.

0:23:330:23:36

RINGING TONE

0:23:360:23:38

Oh, hi.

0:23:410:23:43

'The first thing I'm told comes as a massive blow.

0:23:430:23:46

'They say they found no documentation

0:23:460:23:48

'to indicate the Sproules cancelled their contract,

0:23:480:23:51

'so Elsworth believes they are still entitled to charge their fee.

0:23:510:23:55

'They found out about the subsequent claims

0:23:550:23:57

'because Lloyds had kept them informed.'

0:23:570:24:01

I've got a copy of the letter she sent you.

0:24:010:24:03

Now, obviously I don't have proof that you've received it,

0:24:030:24:06

that's something I'm just going to have to take her word on.

0:24:060:24:09

'I can understand where Elsworth are coming from,

0:24:090:24:12

'but on their company website,

0:24:120:24:13

'they promise to keep in regular contact with customers,

0:24:130:24:16

'so why didn't that happen if they thought the case was still open?'

0:24:160:24:20

When you look at the actual facts, with what she's telling me,

0:24:200:24:23

then subsequently this claim you're now putting in

0:24:230:24:26

is as a result of what she's discovered seven months later,

0:24:260:24:30

it would seem pretty obvious that it's...

0:24:300:24:33

it's almost certainly something that you're not entitled to.

0:24:330:24:37

'The Elsworth representative disagrees on the grounds that

0:24:370:24:41

'Lloyds are the biggest PPI-issuing bank,

0:24:410:24:43

'so their systems don't always work and things take time.

0:24:430:24:46

'They believe that all the money the Sproules have had back

0:24:460:24:50

'from Lloyds was instigated by them.'

0:24:500:24:52

I'll tell you what I find interesting there.

0:24:520:24:55

Obviously, the original claim you were paid for

0:24:550:24:57

and there's no dispute there at all,

0:24:570:24:59

that's the £900, that's gone, that's paid.

0:24:590:25:01

When you're telling me now that this second claim,

0:25:010:25:04

part of that was made by you in November 2011,

0:25:040:25:07

I'll be interested if you could prove that to me

0:25:070:25:09

and show me the documentation to back that up.

0:25:090:25:12

'Elsworth say they also have recordings of calls

0:25:120:25:14

'they made to Lloyds TSB, within which the bank confirmed

0:25:140:25:18

'categorically it was a claim by Elsworth as opposed to the Sproules.

0:25:180:25:22

'They agree to send me through all of this documentation,

0:25:240:25:27

'but I can't help thinking that Elsworth have also broken

0:25:270:25:30

'their agreement to keep in touch with a client

0:25:300:25:32

'throughout their claim.' If it's seven months later,

0:25:320:25:36

surely you've already switched off from this one.

0:25:360:25:38

You put your original paperwork in in November,

0:25:380:25:40

you've had your percentage of commission - fair enough,

0:25:400:25:43

you've earned that - and then subsequently,

0:25:430:25:45

they have basically cancelled the contracts with yourselves,

0:25:450:25:49

put another claim in with Lloyds.

0:25:490:25:51

Surely you should have chased this 13 grand right from November's date?

0:25:510:25:54

'Again, Elsworth Associates say this is down to how slow

0:25:540:25:57

'lenders are in communicating due to a backlog of claims.

0:25:570:26:01

'Sadly, it doesn't look like they're budging at all.'

0:26:010:26:03

At the moment, things aren't looking good.

0:26:030:26:06

She's saying, "No, we think we're entitled to this money

0:26:060:26:09

"and we're going to chase her for it."

0:26:090:26:11

'Wow! I've got my work cut out on this case!'

0:26:110:26:14

Wouldn't life be easier if we had a little insider knowledge,

0:26:190:26:23

if we knew exactly how industries operate, so, for once,

0:26:230:26:27

we, as consumers, could be ahead of the game?

0:26:270:26:29

Well, I'm about to meet somebody who is fed up of keeping quiet

0:26:290:26:34

and they're about to let you in on the tricks of the trade.

0:26:340:26:36

'All of us take great pride in our bricks and mortar

0:26:390:26:42

'and if we suspect there's something wrong with our homes,

0:26:420:26:45

'we're often prepared to spend thousands of pounds

0:26:450:26:48

'to put the problems right.

0:26:480:26:49

'Well, we've found an industry insider who wants to warn you

0:26:490:26:52

'about dodgy dealings in the world of damp-proofing.

0:26:520:26:56

'To protect him from any backlash, we've concealed his identity.'

0:26:560:27:00

Tell us a little bit about yourself. What's your experience?

0:27:000:27:03

I've been in the damp-proofing timber-treatment industry

0:27:030:27:06

for over 30 years,

0:27:060:27:07

erm, mostly working as a surveyor,

0:27:070:27:10

but also running a damp-proofing company.

0:27:100:27:13

People don't know about it, so is that why it's easy

0:27:130:27:16

for companies to take advantage of people?

0:27:160:27:19

The damp-proofing industry attracts its share of disreputable companies

0:27:190:27:23

and I don't think that's necessarily a problem

0:27:230:27:26

that's created by the industry,

0:27:260:27:28

it's just that the industry itself is vulnerable to it

0:27:280:27:30

because of this mysterious element of what the work is all about

0:27:300:27:34

and that attracts companies that want to take advantage of that.

0:27:340:27:37

And one common tactic for the smooth operators of the damp-proofing world

0:27:370:27:40

is to cold call you with a fake story about new regulations.

0:27:400:27:46

"Under new government legislation, you're entitled to a free

0:27:460:27:50

"damp survey and we'd like to come and arrange to do that for you."

0:27:500:27:53

That's fantastic - so you can get a free damp survey? No.

0:27:530:27:56

Well, you do get a free survey,

0:27:560:27:58

but it's not usually a surveyor that comes round,

0:27:580:28:00

it's a salesman with a moisture meter,

0:28:000:28:02

trying to convince you that you've got a damp problem,

0:28:020:28:05

even though you probably weren't aware of it

0:28:050:28:07

before you took the cold call.

0:28:070:28:08

'So it's all just a company ploy to try and get work.'

0:28:080:28:12

So this is what you use to check if you have damp - a moisture meter?

0:28:120:28:17

For a salesman, it's a very good tool for selling damp-proof courses.

0:28:170:28:20

For a surveyor, it's just part of a toolkit that they would use

0:28:200:28:24

to build a bigger picture up of a damp problem.

0:28:240:28:27

Because, once they light up red,

0:28:270:28:29

then they convince people they've got a damp problem.

0:28:290:28:32

So if you're holding that against a wall,

0:28:320:28:34

there must be some damp if it's firing up to red?

0:28:340:28:37

Well, not necessarily,

0:28:380:28:39

because although it's called a moisture meter,

0:28:390:28:41

that can be quite misleading.

0:28:410:28:43

What it's actually measuring is the conductivity

0:28:430:28:45

on the surface of the wall.

0:28:450:28:47

So, as you put the prongs of the meter against the wall,

0:28:470:28:50

if there's a...

0:28:500:28:52

if there's conductivity in the wall, for whatever reason,

0:28:520:28:55

then you will get a high reading back.

0:28:550:28:57

So if I put my finger across the prongs there,

0:28:570:28:59

-I can get a high reading.

-Do you have damp?

0:28:590:29:01

So it looks like I need a new damp-proof!

0:29:010:29:03

SHE LAUGHS

0:29:030:29:04

So that's what they're going to be doing, then?

0:29:040:29:06

This is a tool, so what you basically do

0:29:060:29:08

is you're going around the walls, testing the walls,

0:29:080:29:11

to see if you obtain high readings. If you do obtain high readings,

0:29:110:29:14

then you should really be pursuing that

0:29:140:29:17

and mapping out the wall by taking further readings

0:29:170:29:20

and then looking for the cause of it based on the readings

0:29:200:29:23

but for someone who's mis-selling a damp-proof course,

0:29:230:29:26

the first sign of a high reading is all they're really looking for.

0:29:260:29:30

Because then, you know, as long as their customer's seen that,

0:29:300:29:33

then you would use that as a selling point.

0:29:330:29:35

What should you really be aware of? When should alarm bells be ringing?

0:29:350:29:40

I think if you're taking a free assessment of any type,

0:29:400:29:43

you should always get more than one opinion anyway.

0:29:430:29:46

And you may well find that the opinions about the damp problem

0:29:460:29:49

are quite varied anyway and, if that's the case,

0:29:490:29:52

then you should really look for a professional surveyor

0:29:520:29:56

to do a survey.

0:29:560:29:57

If you've got a surveyor who is suggesting that the wall is damp,

0:29:570:30:03

but it's purely on a moisture meter test,

0:30:030:30:06

and he cannot point to any other evidence,

0:30:060:30:09

then I would be very sceptical as to whether there is a damp problem.

0:30:090:30:13

'And it seems you could even be sceptical

0:30:130:30:15

'of whether there is a real surveyor in your house.'

0:30:150:30:18

If somebody comes round and you're expecting them

0:30:180:30:21

to look at your walls and see if you have damp, and they said,

0:30:210:30:24

"I'm a salesperson,"

0:30:240:30:26

wouldn't you just say, "No, I need a specialist to look at this"?

0:30:260:30:29

They don't call themselves salesmen. They will call themselves...

0:30:290:30:33

technicians or...

0:30:330:30:35

They can use the term surveyor,

0:30:350:30:37

there's no sort of legal definition of what a surveyor is, of course.

0:30:370:30:41

-Mm-hm.

-I think what you have to look for is a qualified surveyor

0:30:410:30:44

and that would be someone that's qualifications

0:30:440:30:47

that are recognised in the industry for that kind of survey work.

0:30:470:30:52

'So remember our expert's advice - one damp-proof meter reading

0:30:520:30:56

'doesn't necessarily mean you have rising damp.

0:30:560:30:59

'Get a second opinion if you've had a free survey.

0:30:590:31:03

'And always check your surveyor's qualifications.'

0:31:030:31:06

I'm answering a cry for help from Shirley Sproule,

0:31:120:31:15

whose PPI claim has left her with an unexpected bill.

0:31:150:31:19

Her and her husband used claims management company

0:31:190:31:22

Elsworth Associates

0:31:220:31:23

to claim mis-sold PPI from Lloyds TSB.

0:31:230:31:26

Elsworth have already been paid £295 as a fee for one claim

0:31:260:31:31

but now they're demanding a fee on a separate claim the Sproules say

0:31:310:31:35

THEY raised with Lloyds TSB

0:31:350:31:37

AFTER cancelling their contract with Elsworth Associates.

0:31:370:31:41

I've been sent documentation by Elsworth,

0:31:410:31:43

supporting the fact that they originally asked Lloyds

0:31:430:31:46

to look into all loans

0:31:460:31:47

and confirming that the bank had Elsworth down

0:31:470:31:49

as handling the whole of the Sproules' case.

0:31:490:31:52

But Shirley is convinced she was told the case was closed

0:31:520:31:55

when she got back in touch with Lloyds TSB

0:31:550:31:58

to start the claims process again.

0:31:580:32:00

I phoned Lloyds TSB on 21st September,

0:32:000:32:03

to see if I could get some kind of confirmation

0:32:030:32:06

that they had closed the original account.

0:32:060:32:09

So I spoke to someone on that day and, eventually,

0:32:090:32:12

I did get him to say that it had been closed on 18th January.

0:32:120:32:17

So I asked them, I says,

0:32:170:32:18

"Could you actually sent me that out in writing?"

0:32:180:32:21

And they said, no, they can't do that, they can't send out paperwork.

0:32:210:32:25

I felt as if I was going to have to end up

0:32:250:32:27

giving this money to Elsworth

0:32:270:32:28

because nobody was giving me paperwork

0:32:280:32:31

to prove that we had done the work and not Elsworth.

0:32:310:32:35

As Elsworth Associates have asked for the best part of four grand

0:32:350:32:38

from Shirley in fees for her additional PPI claims,

0:32:380:32:42

I've asked them to provide evidence of the work they did

0:32:420:32:44

towards this claim and there's been a development.

0:32:440:32:48

They have emailed me to say they are reducing

0:32:480:32:50

the amount Shirley owes them from £3,926 to £1,304.

0:32:500:32:57

It is a step in the right direction and I can't wait to find out

0:32:570:33:00

if they're now starting to see my point.

0:33:000:33:03

I had an email from Elsworth.

0:33:030:33:04

I've got to say, it's pretty good,

0:33:040:33:06

because it's moving in the right direction.

0:33:060:33:08

They have now made Shirley an offer of settlement

0:33:080:33:11

which is a lot, lot lower than what they first wanted,

0:33:110:33:13

but you know me, I'm not going to be happy with that

0:33:130:33:16

and I'm going to try and better it.

0:33:160:33:18

Right.

0:33:190:33:20

RINGING TONE

0:33:210:33:22

Voicemail.

0:33:260:33:28

Good afternoon to you, it's Dominic Littlewood from the BBC.

0:33:280:33:31

I just wanted to have a chat with you

0:33:310:33:33

about the last email you sent in

0:33:330:33:35

and would appreciate it if you could try and do it

0:33:350:33:37

sooner rather than later, if it doesn't inconvenience you.

0:33:370:33:39

I look forward to speaking to you. Thanks, Joanne. Bye-bye.

0:33:390:33:42

I'm always polite, because that always helps.

0:33:420:33:45

But I do hate voicemails!

0:33:450:33:47

Oh, well. Looks like I'll just have to wait

0:33:470:33:49

for an explanation for the mystery reduced figure.

0:33:490:33:51

Shirley and her husband have found themselves caught up

0:33:510:33:54

between their bank, Lloyds, and Elsworth, their PPI reclaim company,

0:33:540:33:58

which is a pretty awkward position to be in.

0:33:580:34:01

So what can you do if you find yourself in a similar situation?

0:34:010:34:06

David Cresswell is director of communications

0:34:060:34:08

at the Financial Ombudsman Service and he is about to explain all.

0:34:080:34:12

The Financial Ombudsman is the organisation that you come to

0:34:120:34:16

if you've fallen out with your bank or insurance company

0:34:160:34:20

or you've complained to them

0:34:200:34:21

and you don't think they're taking you seriously -

0:34:210:34:24

you can come to the ombudsman and we're independent.

0:34:240:34:27

We'll listen to what you say,

0:34:270:34:28

we'll listen to what the bank or the insurance company says

0:34:280:34:32

and then we'll make up our mind about what should happen.

0:34:320:34:34

So what has the ombudsman's experience been

0:34:340:34:37

of payment protection insurance being mis-sold?

0:34:370:34:40

People are now saying that PPI is the biggest mis-selling scandal ever

0:34:400:34:45

and the banks have got to make sure they've put enough money aside

0:34:450:34:49

for everyone who might rightly claim compensation.

0:34:490:34:52

At the moment, people are talking about that sum of money

0:34:520:34:55

put to one side by the banks as being around 12 to 15 billion

0:34:550:34:59

but some people are saying that will easily become

0:34:590:35:02

20 billion or 25 billion.

0:35:020:35:04

For the record, at the ombudsman,

0:35:040:35:07

we're now getting over 10,000 new PPI complaints every week,

0:35:070:35:12

which means the banks have, together,

0:35:120:35:14

received well over two million complaints.

0:35:140:35:18

What do these big numbers about PPI mean for consumers?

0:35:180:35:21

The most important thing is that it means, inevitably,

0:35:210:35:25

there are going to be lots of people in the queue ahead of you,

0:35:250:35:28

so you will have to wait.

0:35:280:35:29

Right, so it is clear that the banks

0:35:290:35:31

have definitely messed up in the first place

0:35:310:35:33

and they are now struggling to cope with demand from unhappy customers.

0:35:330:35:36

So, when it comes to Shirley's case, Elsworth might be right

0:35:360:35:40

when they say they're not the only ones to blame.

0:35:400:35:43

But do you have to use a PPI company to get your money back?

0:35:430:35:48

Now hundreds of thousands of people are very successfully

0:35:480:35:51

doing it themselves, putting in their claim and winning.

0:35:510:35:55

You are just as likely to win by complaining yourself

0:35:550:35:58

as you are paying a claims manager to do it for you.

0:35:580:36:01

'Wise words indeed, but this doesn't help Shirley,

0:36:020:36:05

'who believes she did the second claim herself.

0:36:050:36:08

'Elsworth say otherwise, and I've had an email back from Lloyds TSB.

0:36:080:36:14

'In the email, they say that they upheld the original claim

0:36:140:36:17

'by Elsworth Associates on 18th January 2012, and that

0:36:170:36:22

'if no further contact is made, it's usual for them to close a complaint.

0:36:220:36:26

'They admit that at the time of the original claim,

0:36:260:36:29

'other loans were noted as linked to the Sproules,

0:36:290:36:31

'but due to a "clerical oversight",

0:36:310:36:33

'they weren't investigated at the time,

0:36:330:36:36

'and that when Shirley got back in touch

0:36:360:36:38

'they simply reopened the old case under the same reference number.

0:36:380:36:41

'Hence, Elsworth Associates being copied into the new offer.

0:36:410:36:45

'So Lloyds have put their hands up and admitted

0:36:450:36:48

'they should have investigated all other loans at the start,

0:36:480:36:51

'and if that had happened, Elsworth would've handled the full claim.

0:36:510:36:54

'But they didn't. Now, although they wanted

0:36:540:36:57

'the best part of four grand in fees from Shirley and her husband

0:36:570:37:00

'for the second batch of claims,

0:37:000:37:02

'Elsworth had just reduced their bill to a little over £1,300.

0:37:020:37:06

'But I'm keen to know why.'

0:37:060:37:08

Good afternoon, it's Dominic Littlewood from the BBC.

0:37:080:37:11

Now, I appreciate here you've come back with an offer

0:37:110:37:13

and you've reduced the amount that you're now seeking from them

0:37:130:37:17

from just under four grand to just over £1,300,

0:37:170:37:19

so basically you're asking for a third of what there was.

0:37:190:37:23

Can I ask you, where did that figure come from?

0:37:230:37:26

'Elsworth say this reduced amount is their share of the PPI refund

0:37:260:37:30

'from just one loan forming part of Shirley's £13,000 claim.

0:37:300:37:35

'Elsworth Associates say they are entitled to their 25% share

0:37:350:37:39

'because this specific loan was named

0:37:390:37:41

'in the original contract with Shirley,

0:37:410:37:44

'and there had just been a delay in getting it processed.'

0:37:440:37:47

Let's make a gesture of goodwill, not an admission of guilt.

0:37:470:37:50

Just say to Mrs Sproule,

0:37:500:37:52

"D'you know what? On this occasion we are going to wipe this one."

0:37:520:37:56

How d'you feel about that?

0:37:560:37:57

'Elsworth maintain they think it's reasonable

0:37:570:38:00

'to ask for the extra money,

0:38:000:38:01

'as it was due to a disjointed payment by Lloyds,

0:38:010:38:04

'and that it was THEIR activity

0:38:040:38:06

'that got Shirley and her husband all the money back.

0:38:060:38:08

'But I disagree.'

0:38:080:38:10

At the end of the day, I think there's an air of

0:38:100:38:13

both companies probably could have done better.

0:38:130:38:15

'The Elsworth representative says they sometimes have huge problems

0:38:150:38:19

'with the banks during the PPI claims process, and that they

0:38:190:38:22

'have contacted the Financial Services Authority for some advice.'

0:38:220:38:26

I've got to say, it's touch and go

0:38:260:38:28

as to whether I've got the result I want.

0:38:280:38:30

I hate touch and gos.

0:38:300:38:32

'Following on from Lloyds' email about "a clerical oversight"

0:38:330:38:36

'which delayed their payment of PPI refunds,

0:38:360:38:39

'I want to know what they're going to do about this.

0:38:390:38:42

'It's not fair on Shirley, who has had months of stress

0:38:420:38:45

'and debt collection letters.

0:38:450:38:46

'Time for a call, I think.'

0:38:460:38:48

I'm meeting Shirley Sproule this afternoon, the idea being that

0:38:560:38:59

I'm going to tell her how the case has progressed and what's happened.

0:38:590:39:03

When you say there was a clerical oversight, what exactly was that?

0:39:030:39:07

'He says they were sent no evidence before July 2013

0:39:080:39:12

'that Shirley cancelled her contract with Elsworth.

0:39:120:39:16

'He also says that although some loans were missed initially,

0:39:160:39:19

'they would have been picked up by an audit at a later date,

0:39:190:39:22

'but clearly the bank should have investigated

0:39:220:39:24

'all loans in the first place.

0:39:240:39:26

'So, I suggest they offer a goodwill gesture to Shirley

0:39:260:39:29

'for all the hassle.'

0:39:290:39:30

I suppose £1 million is out of the question, isn't it?

0:39:300:39:35

'Unsurprisingly, it's a no to the seven figure sum,

0:39:350:39:38

'but he does tell me he'll see what he can do.'

0:39:380:39:40

Sometimes I just think, "You know what?

0:39:400:39:43

"I ain't half good at my job."

0:39:430:39:45

'Shortly after getting off the phone, Lloyds have sent me an email

0:39:480:39:51

'suggesting they recognise their hand in this stress, and guess what?

0:39:510:39:55

'An email has come through from Elsworth Associates as well

0:39:550:39:58

'with some interesting information.

0:39:580:40:00

'It's time to deliver some news.'

0:40:000:40:02

I've arranged to hook up again with Shirley

0:40:020:40:04

to let her know how I've been getting on.

0:40:040:40:06

-Good to see you again, Shirley.

-Good to see you too, Dom.

0:40:100:40:12

Right, Elsworth. Let's start with them.

0:40:120:40:15

They believe that they were entitled to their money as a result

0:40:150:40:19

of them taking on the first case for you.

0:40:190:40:21

The amount of £4,000, give or take a penny or two,

0:40:210:40:24

as far as they were concerned, was owing to them by you.

0:40:240:40:28

-Mm-hm.

-How would you feel now if I told you

0:40:280:40:31

that I'd got your £4,000 debt down to £1,300?

0:40:310:40:36

-Reasonably happy.

-Why reasonably?

0:40:370:40:40

Cos I still think they want a bit much for what they've done.

0:40:400:40:44

How would you feel if I told you that Elsworth did offer that

0:40:440:40:47

and I said no?

0:40:470:40:50

And subsequently went back to them and they've now come back

0:40:500:40:52

and said they're going to scrub your debt totally?

0:40:520:40:55

-You're joking.

-No.

0:40:550:40:57

SHE LAUGHS

0:40:570:40:59

-Really?

-100%.

0:40:590:41:01

In their statement to us, they said...

0:41:010:41:04

That's unbelievable.

0:41:360:41:37

I honestly thought they would want their money.

0:41:380:41:41

Is my job done? Am I happy?

0:41:410:41:44

I hope so. Cos I'm ecstatic.

0:41:440:41:47

It doesn't end there.

0:41:470:41:48

Because there was also Lloyds, and there were some errors there

0:41:480:41:52

which they made, so I've been on their case as well.

0:41:520:41:55

I've got a statement from them.

0:41:550:41:57

"Hi, Dominic. Good to speak to you earlier.

0:41:570:42:00

"I am pleased to confirm

0:42:000:42:01

"that we have agreed to pay Mr and Mrs Sproule £250 compensation

0:42:010:42:05

"for the stress and inconvenience caused

0:42:050:42:07

"as a result of the clerical oversight that meant all loans

0:42:070:42:10

"were not refunded at the time of the original complaint

0:42:100:42:13

"received via Elsworth Associates.

0:42:130:42:15

"We will also send a bunch of flowers by way of apology.

0:42:150:42:18

"We strive to deliver an excellent service for our customers

0:42:180:42:22

"and we apologise that we did not meet

0:42:220:42:24

"our usual high standards on this occasion."

0:42:240:42:26

You've got four grand in your bank, I'm starting to see tears.

0:42:260:42:30

We're just ordinary people. And we did the work.

0:42:300:42:34

-Why should somebody else get paid for the work we did?

-Yeah.

0:42:340:42:37

I can't thank you enough.

0:42:370:42:39

My pleasure.

0:42:410:42:42

I'll tell you what was nice about giving Shirley that good news.

0:42:430:42:46

You could tell by her reaction just how much this had been worrying her,

0:42:460:42:49

just how stressed out she was. I've got to say,

0:42:490:42:52

as far as Elsworth are concerned, and Lloyds bank,

0:42:520:42:55

you've both done yourselves proud and Shirley is a very happy lady.

0:42:550:42:59

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