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Hello, I'm Wendy Austin and this is Hello, tonight we are broadcasting | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
from just outside Belfast at Museum at the Mill in Newtownabbey. It is | :00:40. | :00:49. | |
part of the council's new premises at Mossley Mill and celebrates the | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
links with the mutt -- linen trade. We have been setting up and | :00:53. | :01:01. | |
preparing for this evening's programme. Last week it was | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
Cookstown and next it is Enniskillen to try and bring | :01:03. | :01:08. | |
resolution to the issues you care about. This week we are not like | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
because of the Bank Holiday, but continued to get in touch with us | :01:11. | :01:21. | |
:01:21. | :01:22. | ||
by e-mail. You can follow was on Facebook or you can free jazz. -- | :01:22. | :01:27. | |
Twitter as. 2000 people in Northern Ireland | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
have muscular dystrophy. Are we feeling then? May help minister | :01:31. | :01:38. | |
will be here to answer questions. -- the Health Minister. And we have | :01:38. | :01:45. | |
been asking shoppers for their top saving tips. | :01:45. | :01:52. | |
First, we have been out on the road again. This week, you have been | :01:52. | :01:58. | |
looking at asbestos? Until 1999, asbestos was regarded as a | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
versatile building block in the construction industry, something in | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
virtually every new home. We now know it is dangerous. I have spoken | :02:07. | :02:13. | |
to a Fermanagh woman, who has been left high and dry since she bought | :02:13. | :02:23. | |
:02:23. | :02:33. | ||
her home from the Housing Executive I am looking at an e-mail from duty | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
in Enniskillen who is telling us harsh job she was to find asbestos | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
in the kitchen of the home sheet bought from Housing Executive 12 | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
years ago. At the point of sale the Executive did not mention it. They | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
said they did not know which homes had it until they conducted a | :02:49. | :02:55. | |
survey. That is what upsets duty. Even when the asbestos was found in | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
homes in her street, no one from the Housing Executive knocked her | :02:58. | :03:07. | |
front door. This two-storey house in Enniskillen was the family home | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
from 1985. She bought a house in 2000, after her mother's death, was | :03:12. | :03:20. | |
totally unaware of the asbestos risk until November last year. | :03:20. | :03:26. | |
had a Bill to come round and it was uncovered under the sink. You | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
cannot open that, so I wanted a cupboard. The builder was knocking | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
that out and I helped him carried appeases outside. He said, have you | :03:36. | :03:43. | |
got a tap? That is dangerous stuff. I said, what you mean? He said, | :03:43. | :03:49. | |
that is asbestos. This house was built in the 1970s at a time when | :03:49. | :03:55. | |
the use of asbestos was widespread. Last November, Judy was left alone | :03:55. | :04:02. | |
to be with a hazardous waste found in her kitchen. -- to deal with. | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
iPhone Housing Executive and said this has been discovered. I was not | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
sure if it was anywhere else in the house. He said, the building plans | :04:09. | :04:15. | |
do not have them any more. After 10 years they are destroyed. She says | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
she was met with a brick wall at the Housing Executive. She raised | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
concerns in November last year but says the Executive responded by | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
telling her they had no legal responsibility to tell her there | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
was asbestos in her home. In a letter to her solicitor, she said | :04:31. | :04:37. | |
she was basically told to take a problem elsewhere. So she left home | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
until a licence contractor can be hard to assess the risk and remove | :04:41. | :04:47. | |
the asbestos. We are meeting someone with 27 years' experience | :04:47. | :04:54. | |
of assessing the risks of asbestos on site. Asbestos is a naturally | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
occurring silicate rock and was mind include those like South | :04:58. | :05:04. | |
Africa. It was manufactured into a number of product. It was widely | :05:04. | :05:10. | |
used because of its thermal insulation properties. Properties | :05:10. | :05:16. | |
that were built before 1990, asbestos was fairly widely used. | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
What are the dangers to the work man who comes into the house and | :05:19. | :05:25. | |
rails into something that contains asbestos? It would depend on the | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
tide of asbestos. There are some types that the Matrix tightly bind | :05:30. | :05:37. | |
the asbestos fibres, so that the release is low. Any type and | :05:37. | :05:44. | |
drilling, cutting or a abrading of any asbestos tide should be avoided | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
because this is the time when the fibres are potentially released | :05:47. | :05:57. | |
:05:57. | :05:58. | ||
into the atmosphere. They haven't CVT Executive said the Housing | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
Executive has a duty to manage asbestos in their housing stock. -- | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
But health and safety Executive. That does not cover houses sold to | :06:07. | :06:17. | |
:06:17. | :06:26. | ||
A senior manager told us that once a Housing Executive establish the | :06:26. | :06:28. | |
presence of asbestos in their properties, it would be reasonable | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
for them to inform homeowners in the same street who had bought | :06:33. | :06:39. | |
their houses from the Executive. In a statement, the Housing Executive | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
have told us that in 2005, they conducted a survey into all of | :06:43. | :06:51. | |
their properties and they found evidence of asbestos. There was | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
only access from out here, is that right? You could only get in from | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
outside. If the Executive had come due in 2005 and said, we have found | :07:00. | :07:06. | |
asbestos near by and you might want your house Cech, how would you have | :07:06. | :07:13. | |
reacted? -- you has checked. would have been shocked and | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
panicked but little for the knowledge. I would have got the | :07:16. | :07:22. | |
survey done, paid for the correct people to dispose of it. It would | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
have been peace of mind and it would not have been as expensive. | :07:25. | :07:30. | |
If you do it from the beginning it is not as expensive. There was | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
something else that Housing Executive could have done but did | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
not. They failed to mention that she could apply for a discretionary | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
grant to help with the cost of cleaning up asbestos. By the time | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
she found out about it, the Housing Executive said she was not eligible | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
as she had already done the work itself. The first I heard about it | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
was in need impartial reporter. I'm not sure if the Housing Executive | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
knew about it as well. Two people I spoke to did not know anything | :07:57. | :08:03. | |
about it. The asbestos may be gone from a house, but the fear of | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
contamination has not. Every night when I go to bed and sleep under | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
the duvet. That is not going to make any difference. | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
Psychologically, you feel you cannot breathe. Since we began | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
asking questions of the Housing Executive, we have secured two | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
significant developments. There were to reconsider the case and | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
they are going to conduct a review into how they notified owners of | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
former Housing Executive properties about the risks of asbestos. | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
That is quite eight results. three weeks we have been flocking | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
to duty and the Executive and they have moved forward in a positive | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
way, reconsidering my case and more importantly, listening to what she | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
had said about had she been told earlier, she would have appreciated | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
that. That protocol may be revisited now by the Housing | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
Executive. They are under no obligation but it would be welcomed | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
by homeowners. We asked the Housing Executive to come onto the | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
programme but they said that none was available. I have Chris Gent in, | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
from the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors and from me | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
construction union, Michael Kiseil. The Housing Executive was not | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
breaking the law by not passing on the Executive. Will it be | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
reasonable to find out that a house you have bought has asbestos in it? | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
A moral and legal obligation often diverge. You would like to think | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
that there would be a moral obligation to point out something | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
that could affect somebody there is no legal obligation for them to do | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
so. Asbestos is something that makes a chill run down people's | :09:39. | :09:45. | |
backs, for good reasons. How common is it for it to come up in homes? | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
Very common. I come across that almost every single day. That must | :09:50. | :09:56. | |
be very worrying for people going into work in houses. You members | :09:56. | :10:05. | |
must be as well? They are indeed. We commissioned a report in 2009, | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
to let go of specific -- to look specifically at asbestos in the | :10:09. | :10:18. | |
home. The report was very, very comprehensive and in fact, it | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
showed us that about 90% of all houses, social housing for right at | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
the home of the UK including Northern Ireland, have asbestos in | :10:27. | :10:34. | |
them. -- throughout the whole of the UK. That means people in UEG | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
you going to work in houses might find themselves in a situation | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
where they are halfway through the job and realise that is what they | :10:41. | :10:47. | |
are working with? This is happening on a daily basis. They have and | :10:47. | :10:55. | |
safety Executive do have regulations to protect workers, but | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
there is nothing to protect the President of the household, which | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
we think should be expanded upon. - - the resident. We do not want to | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
be alarmist. As long as you do not do anything to the asbestos, it is | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
not dangerous, is that right? depends on the form it is in. | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
Generally speaking, the rule of thumb is if you leave it alone it | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
will leave you alone, so it is safe if you do not subjected to any | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
standing, drilling or abrasion. Your members survey homes for | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
people who are buying. If somebody is buying a house, even if they are | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
buying their own house, the case here, should they get a survey done | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
and will it tell them? Indeed, the survey would tell them. We brought | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
out a budget survey exactly for this kind of situation. It is | :11:45. | :11:54. | |
called the Home condition report. It identify his -- identify his | :11:54. | :12:00. | |
problems such as this. I am sure there are people pleased to hear | :12:00. | :12:07. | |
that. Thank you for or clearing up for us. | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
We have had a huge reaction to our story last week on computer scams. | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
We are working our way through that and we'll pass on your concerns to | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
Trading Standards, who have mastered us they will continue to | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
investigate. Margaret has contacted us to say, while watching the | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
programme she realised she had fallen foul of the same scam. A | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
computer had been giving her trouble, she thought this was a | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
genuine call. She says she would not have been aware hygiene not | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
seen a programme. Rhonda contracted us to say her sister watched a | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
programme on Monday night and informed her of the scam. She | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
immediately rang the telephone number and asked for a refund. | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
Randa says it is the first time she has been taken in by a scam and | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
feels totally silly that she let it happen. Please keep your e-mails | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
coming. In these times of austerity and | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
downturn, most of us are keeping a close eye on what we spend. What is | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
the best way to keep on top of your household budget? In your corner's | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
reporter has been to the Abbey centre to find out how the people | :13:13. | :13:23. | |
:13:23. | :13:28. | ||
of Newtownabbey do it. A church in Mallusk is running free | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
sessions to help local people get on top of their household finances. | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
The aim is to put the joy back into money by teaching people how to | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
chat their household income and take control of their spending. As | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
the saying goes, every penny counts. We are here to find out about your | :13:45. | :13:55. | |
:13:55. | :14:07. | ||
money-saving tips. How are you? We are asking if you | :14:07. | :14:13. | |
have any money-saving tips. Keep it in your purse. Not much happens if | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
you put your money into the bank, because of the interest rate been | :14:16. | :14:24. | |
low. As I and the money I would spend it. Work out your income and | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
outgoings and do not overspend. more careful, turn the heating down | :14:28. | :14:34. | |
and things like that. Put on an extra jumper? Yes! War Two extra | :14:34. | :14:39. | |
jumpers depending on the weather. started drinking -- I stopped | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
drinking. Cut out things that you do not need. Also better for your | :14:44. | :14:50. | |
health. You get more out of life. Don't have kids! That is where the | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
money goes. Be careful what you buy. Do not by too many special offers | :14:55. | :15:02. | |
because she threw them out. Always make sure you do not overspend and | :15:02. | :15:07. | |
be tempted by things. Do not buy Chinese food at the weekend. Do not | :15:07. | :15:12. | |
settle for the first place you see. Have a look around and think twice. | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
I write it all down every week and pay it off. If it is the oil or | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
anything else, I paid off week by week. We are asking people about | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
money-saving tips. Have you got any? That is my money-saving tip | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
beside me! There is a church in Mallusk who are going to be giving | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
lessons to people to try and teach them how to budget. Is that a good | :15:34. | :15:40. | |
idea? It is a bright idea. I would go to that. The you think you need | :15:40. | :15:50. | |
:15:50. | :15:52. | ||
You should get a great response from people. Almost 2000 people | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
suffer from muscular dystrophy, causing muscle wasting and lung | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
problems. Services are fragmented and families have been campaigning | :16:00. | :16:06. | |
for a cohesive system to deliver the care children need. We asked a | :16:06. | :16:11. | |
campaigner to report on the situation for fog. | :16:12. | :16:18. | |
Michaela is 21 years old and studied journalism and PR. Life is | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
not straightforward. She suffers from muscular dystrophy, a muscle- | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
wasting condition causing respiratory problems and she has | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
used a wheelchair. She's been campaigning for a specialist care | :16:31. | :16:37. | |
centre in Northern Ireland and we asked her to look into it for In | :16:37. | :16:47. | |
:16:47. | :17:00. | ||
Michaela Pospech first stop is Brendan. He is 18 and has muscular | :17:00. | :17:10. | |
:17:10. | :17:19. | ||
There isn't a specialist neuromuscular Centre in Northern | :17:19. | :17:26. | |
Ireland. We would need a one-stop- shop, these young men deteriorate | :17:26. | :17:33. | |
and get week. They would need to be able to go to an appointment, maybe | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
sort of within half the day and in one hospital. And then they would | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
not have to be seen for another six months. That would be to their | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
benefit. I think that's the only way forward. That is available in | :17:48. | :17:58. | |
:17:58. | :17:58. | ||
England, why not here? Every weekend, Brendan plays wheelchair | :17:58. | :18:08. | |
:18:08. | :18:12. | ||
football. As you can see, it's enjoyable and fun. It adds another | :18:12. | :18:22. | |
:18:22. | :18:32. | ||
dynamic to people with terminal When we come back up again, there's | :18:32. | :18:39. | |
a difference in Brendan. He has enjoyed being out, the camaraderie. | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
He has something to look forward to the following Saturday what is a | :18:43. | :18:48. | |
great thing. The Football only provides a brief | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
respite and parents are calling on politicians to organise better | :18:52. | :19:02. | |
:19:02. | :19:02. | ||
provision. It's a disgrace, it is time for something to be done. And | :19:02. | :19:10. | |
I hope it will inform the MLAs that there is a need for something to be | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
done for everyone with muscular dystrophy. My son is nearly 19. We | :19:14. | :19:19. | |
have done nothing but fight every corner of the way for everything he | :19:19. | :19:29. | |
:19:29. | :19:29. | ||
has. Welcome, everyone. This is step to in the formal... Next stop | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
is Stormont where a group is conducting an inquiry into muscular | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
dystrophy care and the possibility of a one-stop-shop like those of | :19:38. | :19:45. | |
specialist centres in England. have asked the fundamental | :19:45. | :19:53. | |
question,... She had to take on a legal challenge to get an | :19:53. | :20:00. | |
appointment for her 50-year-old son. Mark had 28 professional people | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
involved in his care. As he tried to express disappointment, it | :20:03. | :20:13. | |
:20:13. | :20:15. | ||
became too much. Services are really bad. I have to go to | :20:15. | :20:24. | |
Newcastle... OK, pet. For him to get his appointment in Newcastle, | :20:24. | :20:34. | |
we had to go through the children's law centre and a solicitor. Do not | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
take your boys to Newcastle. We have to come back to Northern | :20:39. | :20:45. | |
Ireland and the reality. Until we have an infrastructure in Northern | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
Ireland to receive care, we are destroying our boys to take them to | :20:50. | :21:00. | |
:21:00. | :21:00. | ||
centres where they can receive the care. Can you tell me a little more | :21:00. | :21:06. | |
and the main issues around the care? To have a son with to Chen's | :21:06. | :21:12. | |
is like having your best dream and worst nightmare all at the same | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
time. You never stop trying to balance the emotions of being so | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
proud of your son that you love so much with the fear of what it is | :21:21. | :21:28. | |
that happens on a day-to-day basis to do little bore you have. Janet | :21:28. | :21:35. | |
is a GP whose son also suffers from muscular dystrophy. We do have | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
specialists here he can treat people, we're not saying the | :21:38. | :21:45. | |
expertise is not there but the co- ordination and commissioning of the | :21:45. | :21:52. | |
process for patients is not there. And at the moment people are in a | :21:53. | :22:01. | |
difficult situation. Muscular dystrophy is unco-ordinated. When | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
people like me get sick, we want to see one doctor at one place at one | :22:05. | :22:12. | |
time. The well, I am joined by the Health Minister. And one of the | :22:12. | :22:21. | |
mothers in the report. I am sure that was hard to watch, Marina | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
found it emotional. It cannot be a situation you are happy with. | :22:26. | :22:34. | |
it certainly is and I have met them before. Muscular dystrophy is one | :22:34. | :22:40. | |
of those illnesses that is degenerative. It is a struggle for | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
parents and they should not have to fight the way Marina had to fight | :22:44. | :22:50. | |
to support -- to get the support she needed. There is a facility at | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
Newcastle which is the centre of expertise. In Belfast, it's | :22:53. | :22:59. | |
available twice a month, there is discussions on going as to whether | :22:59. | :23:04. | |
it can be extended and how it can be extended. That is something that | :23:04. | :23:10. | |
I have no doubt families would appreciate. Would you like to see | :23:10. | :23:17. | |
it extended? Yes, there are lots of things I would like to see. I have | :23:17. | :23:23. | |
been different demand, but nonetheless what we see his many | :23:23. | :23:28. | |
young people who have significant demands, they do need the multi- | :23:28. | :23:33. | |
disciplinary help and if there was better co-ordination it should not | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
necessarily have to cost us more. Isn't that what the GP said at the | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
end he was also a mother, they are the people here but no co- | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
ordination to make it work. That is right. Sometimes you can deliver a | :23:47. | :23:53. | |
better service for marginally less funding. Those are things we need | :23:53. | :23:59. | |
to look at and address. Parents are right to seek to get better | :23:59. | :24:05. | |
services. Marina, what would you and the other parents like to see | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
for your children, what about the care adviser, a post not currently | :24:10. | :24:15. | |
filled? The difference the care adviser made for me was I had | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
somebody to help me be in charge. I had somebody to tell me what would | :24:20. | :24:27. | |
happen next and it was simple things like I remember school and | :24:27. | :24:33. | |
the kids do recorders in the curriculum and she was able to tell | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
me we need to plan because he would not be able to play the recorder | :24:38. | :24:44. | |
and whenever I was down and finding it challenging, what she did was be | :24:44. | :24:49. | |
there for me and that is what we do not have in Northern Ireland. | :24:49. | :24:58. | |
will happen, I understand, is a more clinical post, a neuromuscular | :24:58. | :25:04. | |
nurse specialist,... Is that I know it was decided in consultation but | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
what would parents say? I have never been asked. This is the first | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
time I have given my views and I know no other parents have been | :25:14. | :25:21. | |
asked. We do not have a clinical answer to the problems. So, to | :25:21. | :25:27. | |
invest money and greater clinical care were not make a difference. | :25:27. | :25:32. | |
What the boys need on a day-to-day basis is help to be normal and live | :25:32. | :25:39. | |
normal lives. Marks said he is 15, he is obsessed with football. That | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
is what he is worried about. What he doesn't need is another | :25:43. | :25:49. | |
clinician. He doesn't need another hospital appointment. I, like every | :25:49. | :25:56. | |
other mother, are the chemical co- ordinators. You expect me to be a | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
health provider. I go to one appointment and bring his | :25:59. | :26:05. | |
information because we do not have, records. I do not want to do that | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
anymore. All I want is the same as every other mother, I want to be | :26:10. | :26:19. | |
his mother. So please let us just be what it was. You are listening | :26:19. | :26:25. | |
to that, it is painful for anyone, we are lucky, our children do not | :26:25. | :26:30. | |
have this awful disease. Marina wants to be a proper money and do | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
what she wants. It is quite shocking they have not been asked | :26:33. | :26:40. | |
before. The clinical adviser left due to illness and it short-notice. | :26:40. | :26:46. | |
But did leave a vacuum. I know the trust looked at a replacement. | :26:46. | :26:54. | |
There's been quite a delay. We can look at it and in view of what the | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
parents have to say but the view from the trust was a clinical | :26:59. | :27:05. | |
adviser role should be a nurse with expertise as well. I can understand | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
where the trust is coming from. adverts are going in, will the | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
trust look at it again? We do not want to delay things further but it | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
would be useful to have the views of some of the families and | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
organisations that might sisters. And an all-party group is examining | :27:23. | :27:32. | |
this. We be answering questions from them, we meet more parents? | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
attended the all-party Group and Met parents and we are happy to | :27:36. | :27:44. | |
meet parents again and we need to get our heads around these issues. | :27:44. | :27:50. | |
Thank you for being less -- with us. Next week we are live again from | :27:50. | :27:57. | |
Enniskillen before going to County Down. Let us know your stories and | :27:57. | :28:02. | |
let us who find a resolution for you. You can contact us via e-mail | :28:02. | :28:10. | |
and keep a discussion going online. That is it from us. Remember, we | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
are only on air for 30 minutes a week but that's the tip of the | :28:13. | :28:18. |