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Here's Who Bombed Birmingham? | 0:00:00 | 0:00:09 | |
Irish Republicans stage an act of defiance. | 0:00:09 | 0:00:12 | |
This display was at the funeral of IRA man Michael Gaughan. | 0:00:12 | 0:00:17 | |
These pictures give a rare glimpse into the secret world | 0:00:17 | 0:00:20 | |
of the IRA in England. | 0:00:20 | 0:00:22 | |
One of these men was an active member of one of the IRA's | 0:00:22 | 0:00:25 | |
most notorious units. | 0:00:25 | 0:00:28 | |
This man has told us he was part of the IRA group that planned | 0:00:28 | 0:00:32 | |
and blew up two pubs in Birmingham in 1974, | 0:00:32 | 0:00:34 | |
killing 21 people - then the worst act of mass murder | 0:00:34 | 0:00:37 | |
carried out on British soil. | 0:00:37 | 0:00:40 | |
This is the same man 43 years later, walking through Dublin. | 0:00:40 | 0:00:47 | |
His name is Michael Christopher Anthony Hayes. | 0:00:47 | 0:00:55 | |
The IRA campaign may be over, but Mick Hayes clings to the uniform | 0:00:55 | 0:00:58 | |
of his paramilitary past. | 0:00:58 | 0:01:05 | |
He's been accused of being one of those who planted the Birmingham | 0:01:05 | 0:01:08 | |
pub bombs but has never faced charges. | 0:01:08 | 0:01:10 | |
He says he was an active volunteer in the city the night | 0:01:10 | 0:01:13 | |
the bombs exploded. | 0:01:14 | 0:01:14 | |
Tonight, he breaks his silence about his IRA past. | 0:01:14 | 0:01:19 | |
I take absolute, total collective responsibility - | 0:01:19 | 0:01:24 | |
and, yes, I feel justified in being part of any part of the IRA | 0:01:24 | 0:01:28 | |
that operated in England. | 0:01:28 | 0:01:30 | |
There was no intention of the IRA to kill innocent people. | 0:01:30 | 0:01:33 | |
That wasn't meant. | 0:01:33 | 0:01:34 | |
That wasn't done. | 0:01:34 | 0:01:35 | |
It wouldn't have been done, if that was the case. | 0:01:35 | 0:01:40 | |
Did you plant a bomb... | 0:01:40 | 0:01:41 | |
I'm... | 0:01:41 | 0:01:42 | |
..in the Tavern in the Town... | 0:01:42 | 0:01:44 | |
I'm not telling you, no. | 0:01:44 | 0:01:46 | |
..or the Mulberry Bush? | 0:01:46 | 0:01:47 | |
I'm not telling you. | 0:01:47 | 0:01:48 | |
My role? I was an active volunteer. | 0:01:48 | 0:01:50 | |
Strike England. | 0:01:50 | 0:01:51 | |
To bring the focus of the war... | 0:01:51 | 0:01:53 | |
to the attention of the English people. | 0:01:53 | 0:01:57 | |
In reality, bringing it to the attention of the English | 0:02:04 | 0:02:12 | |
people meant unleashing a vicious wave of attacks in the West Midlands | 0:02:12 | 0:02:15 | |
in the early '70s. | 0:02:15 | 0:02:16 | |
In a sustained campaign over 18 months, 50 bombs | 0:02:16 | 0:02:18 | |
and incendiary devices exploded. | 0:02:18 | 0:02:21 | |
On the 21st of November, as thousands of people were enjoying | 0:02:21 | 0:02:24 | |
a night out in Birmingham, the IRA attacked the city centre. | 0:02:24 | 0:02:27 | |
A bomb exploded in the Mulberry Bush bar at about 8:15. | 0:02:28 | 0:02:33 | |
Ten people were killed. | 0:02:33 | 0:02:35 | |
ARCHIVE: The force of one of the explosions was so great it | 0:02:35 | 0:02:40 | |
badly damaged a bus passing the street. | 0:02:40 | 0:02:44 | |
Minutes later, a second bomb exploded - this time at the Tavern | 0:02:44 | 0:02:48 | |
in the Town. | 0:02:48 | 0:02:49 | |
11 people died in the blast. | 0:02:49 | 0:02:54 | |
Altogether, around 200 people were injured. | 0:02:54 | 0:02:59 | |
Warnings were given, but they were too vague | 0:03:00 | 0:03:02 | |
and too late. | 0:03:02 | 0:03:03 | |
It wasn't until next morning, with more than 50 dying | 0:03:03 | 0:03:06 | |
and mutilated victims still in Birmingham's hospitals, | 0:03:06 | 0:03:08 | |
that people realised the full scale of the disaster. | 0:03:08 | 0:03:12 | |
Although it's more than 40 years since the bombs exploded, | 0:03:12 | 0:03:15 | |
the people of Birmingham have never forgotten what happens. | 0:03:15 | 0:03:19 | |
The original inquest didn't conclude, and it's scheduled | 0:03:19 | 0:03:21 | |
to reopen again this autumn - and the relatives are hoping it | 0:03:21 | 0:03:24 | |
will provide them with answers to their many questions. | 0:03:24 | 0:03:29 | |
The inquest is being reopened following a campaign by the victims' | 0:03:29 | 0:03:33 | |
families, who feel that they've been denied justice and that their loved | 0:03:33 | 0:03:36 | |
ones have been forgotten. | 0:03:37 | 0:03:46 | |
Julie Hambleton's sister Maxine was 18 when she died | 0:03:46 | 0:03:48 | |
in the explosion in the Tavern in the Town. | 0:03:48 | 0:03:51 | |
She'd gone there to invite her friends to her house-warming party. | 0:03:51 | 0:04:01 | |
My brother IDed Maxine... | 0:04:01 | 0:04:06 | |
My mother IDed Maxine... | 0:04:06 | 0:04:07 | |
and... | 0:04:07 | 0:04:08 | |
..the thought of knowing that our mum has that memory, | 0:04:08 | 0:04:11 | |
her last memory of her daughter, of her burned remains, haunts me. | 0:04:11 | 0:04:14 | |
She said that her hair... | 0:04:14 | 0:04:16 | |
..was melted in her face... | 0:04:16 | 0:04:23 | |
..and it was very difficult to... | 0:04:23 | 0:04:31 | |
..recognise her - and we've since found out, | 0:04:31 | 0:04:33 | |
because we had the postmortem reports, what her other | 0:04:33 | 0:04:36 | |
injuries were, and... | 0:04:36 | 0:04:38 | |
..that's so hard. | 0:04:38 | 0:04:43 | |
That is so hard. | 0:04:43 | 0:04:44 | |
And Maxine did nothing to no-one. | 0:04:44 | 0:04:48 | |
She was a really, really good sister. | 0:04:48 | 0:04:52 | |
She'd do anything for us. | 0:04:52 | 0:04:59 | |
And we love her. | 0:04:59 | 0:05:00 | |
We love her today as we did... | 0:05:00 | 0:05:03 | |
..the day we lost her. | 0:05:03 | 0:05:07 | |
Even at this late stage, the relatives had hoped | 0:05:07 | 0:05:11 | |
the reopening of the inquests would be an opportunity for them | 0:05:11 | 0:05:15 | |
to find out who was responsible for the act of mass murder. | 0:05:15 | 0:05:18 | |
Why is it so important for the perpetrators to be named? | 0:05:18 | 0:05:21 | |
If we allow people to come to any one of our cities and kill | 0:05:21 | 0:05:25 | |
with impunity, and never be brought to justice, | 0:05:25 | 0:05:30 | |
what sort of society are we leaving for future generations? | 0:05:30 | 0:05:35 | |
So, the perpetrator issue is seismic for us - | 0:05:35 | 0:05:40 | |
and it should be for everybody. | 0:05:40 | 0:05:43 | |
In the aftermath of the explosions, grief soon turned to anger, | 0:05:43 | 0:05:46 | |
and there were anti-Irish protests on the streets. | 0:05:46 | 0:05:50 | |
ALL CHANT AND SING. | 0:05:50 | 0:05:57 | |
Six Irishmen living in Birmingham were quickly | 0:05:57 | 0:05:58 | |
charged and wrongfully convicted. | 0:05:59 | 0:06:01 | |
Known as the Birmingham Six, some of them were coerced | 0:06:01 | 0:06:04 | |
into signing confessions after being mistreated in custody. | 0:06:04 | 0:06:10 | |
In 1991, their convictions were finally quashed by the Court | 0:06:10 | 0:06:13 | |
of Appeal - but only after they'd spent 16 years in jail for something | 0:06:13 | 0:06:16 | |
they didn't do. | 0:06:16 | 0:06:19 | |
Justice?! | 0:06:19 | 0:06:21 | |
I don't think them people in there have got the intelligence | 0:06:21 | 0:06:24 | |
nor the honesty to spell the word, never mind dispense it! | 0:06:24 | 0:06:27 | |
They're rotten! | 0:06:27 | 0:06:30 | |
So, if the Birmingham Six didn't carry out the explosions, | 0:06:30 | 0:06:33 | |
then just who did? | 0:06:33 | 0:06:36 | |
Five IRA men, all active in the West Midlands in 1974, | 0:06:36 | 0:06:40 | |
have been linked to the bomb attacks in Birmingham. | 0:06:40 | 0:06:43 | |
For years, one of the key suspect has been this man, | 0:06:43 | 0:06:47 | |
Michael Hayes. | 0:06:47 | 0:06:49 | |
In the summer of 1974, he was living in the Acocks Green | 0:06:49 | 0:06:52 | |
area of south Birmingham. | 0:06:52 | 0:06:55 | |
A self-confessed veteran IRA man, today he lives in Dublin. | 0:06:55 | 0:07:01 | |
We went in search of him to ask him what role he played | 0:07:01 | 0:07:04 | |
in the Birmingham pub bombs. | 0:07:04 | 0:07:09 | |
We met a number of times. | 0:07:10 | 0:07:12 | |
He said he'd need to clearance from senior Republicans | 0:07:12 | 0:07:14 | |
to speak to me... | 0:07:15 | 0:07:18 | |
..and then he finally agreed to talk openly, | 0:07:18 | 0:07:20 | |
in detail, about the Birmingham pub bombings. | 0:07:20 | 0:07:25 | |
Well, I'll put it like this. | 0:07:25 | 0:07:29 | |
Throughout the period of the campaign in the West Midlands, | 0:07:29 | 0:07:33 | |
I was active throughout the campaign. | 0:07:33 | 0:07:35 | |
I was active throughout the whole campaign in the West Midlands. | 0:07:35 | 0:07:39 | |
Yes. | 0:07:39 | 0:07:41 | |
So, what was your role in the Birmingham pub bombings? | 0:07:41 | 0:07:47 | |
I just told you, I was a participant in the IRA's activities in | 0:07:47 | 0:07:51 | |
Birmingham. | 0:07:51 | 0:07:51 | |
How clear can I make it? | 0:07:51 | 0:07:53 | |
Tell me about the bomb in the Mulberry Bush. | 0:07:53 | 0:07:56 | |
What type of bomb was it? | 0:07:56 | 0:07:57 | |
What type of bomb? In what way, what type of bomb? | 0:07:57 | 0:08:01 | |
It was a gelignite bomb. | 0:08:01 | 0:08:02 | |
Made of gelignite. | 0:08:03 | 0:08:05 | |
What size was it? | 0:08:05 | 0:08:14 | |
You're asking what the forensic details was? | 0:08:14 | 0:08:16 | |
I would suggest it would have been about 12 pounds. | 0:08:16 | 0:08:19 | |
And where was it placed in the bar? As I understand... | 0:08:19 | 0:08:22 | |
As I understand, it was placed under a table. | 0:08:22 | 0:08:25 | |
Repeating what I've heard. That's what I'm saying to you. | 0:08:25 | 0:08:30 | |
It's up to your viewers and yourself... | 0:08:30 | 0:08:37 | |
to interpret what I'm saying. | 0:08:38 | 0:08:39 | |
That's the only answer I can give you. | 0:08:39 | 0:08:41 | |
Tell me about the bomb in the Tavern in the Town. | 0:08:41 | 0:08:44 | |
The same. What can you tell me? | 0:08:44 | 0:08:46 | |
The same thing. | 0:08:46 | 0:08:47 | |
A repeat of the first one. As I heard. | 0:08:47 | 0:08:50 | |
A repeat of the first one. | 0:08:50 | 0:08:51 | |
Michael Hayes says his IRA career lasted more than 30 years, | 0:08:51 | 0:08:54 | |
broken only by a three-year prison sentence spent in the Irish | 0:08:54 | 0:08:57 | |
Republic. | 0:08:57 | 0:09:01 | |
IRA sources in Belfast describe him as "an operator". | 0:09:01 | 0:09:04 | |
Another former associate said he was "dangerous and ruthless". | 0:09:04 | 0:09:10 | |
When he arrived in England in the early '70s, he was already | 0:09:10 | 0:09:13 | |
an experienced IRA man. | 0:09:13 | 0:09:16 | |
The first bomb went off at 8:17. | 0:09:16 | 0:09:18 | |
Ten minutes later, at 8:27, the second bomb exploded. | 0:09:18 | 0:09:29 | |
Then, at 9:15, another undetonated device was discovered at Barclays | 0:09:29 | 0:09:32 | |
Bank. | 0:09:32 | 0:09:32 | |
It received a lot less coverage over the years. | 0:09:32 | 0:09:35 | |
As well as the two bombs that ripped through the Tavern in the Town | 0:09:35 | 0:09:39 | |
and the Mulberry Bush, the IRA planted a third device | 0:09:39 | 0:09:41 | |
in Birmingham that night. | 0:09:41 | 0:09:43 | |
It was left here on the Hagley Road. | 0:09:43 | 0:09:45 | |
It didn't explode, and reports at the time said only the detonator | 0:09:45 | 0:09:48 | |
went off - but Michael Hayes tells a different story. | 0:09:48 | 0:09:51 | |
I was an IRA man in Birmingham, yes. | 0:09:51 | 0:09:53 | |
On the night that the Birmingham pub bombs were planted? | 0:09:53 | 0:09:56 | |
Yes. | 0:09:56 | 0:09:57 | |
Yes, I was there in Birmingham. | 0:09:57 | 0:09:59 | |
And what was your role in the IRA in Birmingham that night | 0:09:59 | 0:10:02 | |
that the bombs were planted? | 0:10:02 | 0:10:03 | |
What was my role? I was a standby volunteer. | 0:10:03 | 0:10:07 | |
So what did you do that night? Take us through it. | 0:10:07 | 0:10:10 | |
I waited to see what was going to happen. | 0:10:10 | 0:10:12 | |
When we found out what had happened... | 0:10:12 | 0:10:17 | |
..we defused the third bomb on the Hagley Road. | 0:10:17 | 0:10:22 | |
Who defused it? I did. | 0:10:22 | 0:10:33 | |
We were horrified when we heard. 'Cause it wasn't intended. | 0:10:33 | 0:10:35 | |
I defused the bomb. | 0:10:35 | 0:10:37 | |
You personally? Yes, me personally. | 0:10:37 | 0:10:41 | |
Yes. | 0:10:41 | 0:10:44 | |
This is a picture of the third bomb. | 0:10:44 | 0:10:51 | |
While it would have undoubtedly provided important forensic evidence | 0:10:51 | 0:10:53 | |
on the real bombers, it no longer can. | 0:10:53 | 0:10:56 | |
Several years ago, the West Midlands Police confirmed | 0:10:56 | 0:10:58 | |
that they'd lost it. | 0:10:58 | 0:10:59 | |
You say that you defused the third bomb in Birmingham that night. | 0:10:59 | 0:11:02 | |
Yeah. | 0:11:02 | 0:11:04 | |
How were you able to do that? | 0:11:04 | 0:11:06 | |
What expertise or knowledge did you have that allowed | 0:11:06 | 0:11:08 | |
you to defuse a bomb? | 0:11:08 | 0:11:11 | |
Quite a lot. Quite a lot. | 0:11:11 | 0:11:16 | |
I specialised in explosives. | 0:11:17 | 0:11:19 | |
Mm...I knew what I was doing. | 0:11:19 | 0:11:23 | |
Explain what it means to say you were into explosives. | 0:11:23 | 0:11:28 | |
To construct a bomb. | 0:11:28 | 0:11:31 | |
To make a bomb. To make a bomb. | 0:11:31 | 0:11:33 | |
That's what I were into. | 0:11:33 | 0:11:36 | |
Clock timers - them days, we used clock timers. | 0:11:36 | 0:11:39 | |
Highly unstable. | 0:11:39 | 0:11:41 | |
That's the way it was done in them days. | 0:11:42 | 0:11:45 | |
Clock timers. | 0:11:45 | 0:11:48 | |
Batteries, clock timer, one detonator. | 0:11:48 | 0:11:53 | |
Commercial detonator. | 0:11:53 | 0:11:55 | |
Not electrical detonator, commercial. | 0:11:55 | 0:12:00 | |
And is that what the Birmingham bombs consisted of? | 0:12:00 | 0:12:03 | |
Yes, as I understand. Yes. | 0:12:03 | 0:12:07 | |
You see, that makes it sound like you did make the bombs. | 0:12:07 | 0:12:10 | |
I have no comment to make on that. | 0:12:10 | 0:12:12 | |
And you mustn't...think whatever you're thinking. | 0:12:12 | 0:12:15 | |
So you're saying that... You see.... | 0:12:15 | 0:12:17 | |
You're being asked... I wasn't the... | 0:12:17 | 0:12:19 | |
You're being asked a simple question. | 0:12:19 | 0:12:20 | |
Did you make bombs that night? | 0:12:21 | 0:12:23 | |
I wasn't the only IRA man in the West Midlands. | 0:12:23 | 0:12:27 | |
There were other men there with me. | 0:12:27 | 0:12:41 | |
If people choose to believe that we've done this and done that, | 0:12:41 | 0:12:44 | |
that's what they want to believe, let them believe it. | 0:12:44 | 0:12:47 | |
VOICEOVER: Paddy Hill is one of the Birmingham Six. | 0:12:47 | 0:12:49 | |
Today, he lives in the Scottish countryside. | 0:12:49 | 0:12:51 | |
He says his life was destroyed by this miscarriage of justice. | 0:12:51 | 0:12:54 | |
It's ruined my life. | 0:12:54 | 0:12:55 | |
What do you call it...? | 0:12:55 | 0:12:56 | |
I don't know how to put it. | 0:12:56 | 0:12:58 | |
But nothing means nothing. | 0:12:58 | 0:13:00 | |
You know? Nothing means nothing. | 0:13:00 | 0:13:01 | |
I'm more at home with animals than I am with people. | 0:13:01 | 0:13:06 | |
You big daftie! | 0:13:06 | 0:13:08 | |
Good girl. Good girl. | 0:13:08 | 0:13:13 | |
Paddy Hill, too, wants the bombers named and hopes the inquest | 0:13:13 | 0:13:16 | |
will go even further. | 0:13:16 | 0:13:17 | |
I hope that they will show the truth, because the truth has | 0:13:17 | 0:13:20 | |
never been...been told. | 0:13:20 | 0:13:24 | |
I want them to show who made the bombs, who planted the bombs, | 0:13:24 | 0:13:27 | |
and I also want them to show what happened to us, | 0:13:27 | 0:13:30 | |
and what I want is for the truth to come out. | 0:13:30 | 0:13:35 | |
I have a different agenda than the families. | 0:13:35 | 0:13:37 | |
The families want to know who was responsible. | 0:13:37 | 0:13:40 | |
And of course, me, I want to know who was responsible for giving | 0:13:40 | 0:13:43 | |
the orders for us to be tortured and framed. | 0:13:43 | 0:13:46 | |
Silver? | 0:13:46 | 0:14:00 | |
Why didn't you walk into a police station and say "I know who did | 0:14:00 | 0:14:04 | |
this," in order to get the Birmingham Six released? | 0:14:04 | 0:14:06 | |
Now that is about a... | 0:14:06 | 0:14:08 | |
You'd want me to go in and give the names of other men? | 0:14:08 | 0:14:11 | |
To become an informer? | 0:14:11 | 0:14:12 | |
Let me tell you, my good man, I'd sooner die than become an informer. | 0:14:12 | 0:14:16 | |
I would sooner die in front of you than become an informer. | 0:14:16 | 0:14:19 | |
Why didn't you go in and admit your own role in whatever you did | 0:14:19 | 0:14:23 | |
or were involved in in order to try and give an opportunity for the six | 0:14:23 | 0:14:27 | |
men to be released? | 0:14:27 | 0:14:31 | |
And what purpose would that serve? | 0:14:31 | 0:14:32 | |
You think that would have helped the Birmingham Six? | 0:14:32 | 0:14:35 | |
Then you would have had the Birmingham Seven. | 0:14:35 | 0:14:37 | |
I would have been one of them. | 0:14:37 | 0:14:41 | |
VOICEOVER: Chris Mullin is the former MP for Sunderland South | 0:14:41 | 0:14:43 | |
and he was instrumental in the campaign to free | 0:14:43 | 0:14:46 | |
the Birmingham Six. | 0:14:46 | 0:14:51 | |
He's sceptical that the reopened inquests will meet the expectations | 0:14:51 | 0:14:53 | |
of the relatives. | 0:14:54 | 0:14:54 | |
Several of the perpetrators of the bombings are dead, | 0:14:54 | 0:14:57 | |
and of those that are still alive, I'm not aware of any evidence that | 0:14:57 | 0:15:01 | |
would enable them to be brought before a court of law. | 0:15:01 | 0:15:04 | |
Perhaps if one of them was to own up and put his thumbprint | 0:15:04 | 0:15:07 | |
on a statement, admitting responsibility, that, | 0:15:07 | 0:15:09 | |
of course, would change the whole dynamic. | 0:15:09 | 0:15:32 | |
Mick Hayes says he was arrested and questioned | 0:15:32 | 0:15:34 | |
by the West Midlands Police in 1974 about the bombings, | 0:15:34 | 0:15:37 | |
but was let go. | 0:15:37 | 0:15:38 | |
In 1990, Granada Television made a drama-documentary called | 0:15:38 | 0:15:40 | |
Who Bombed Birmingham? | 0:15:40 | 0:15:52 | |
In it, Michael Hayes was named as one of those who planted | 0:15:52 | 0:15:55 | |
the Birmingham pub bombs. | 0:15:55 | 0:15:56 | |
In 1990, Granada Television made a drama-documentary | 0:15:56 | 0:15:58 | |
about the Birmingham pub bombings. | 0:15:58 | 0:16:00 | |
Yes. | 0:16:00 | 0:16:00 | |
And they named you as one of the bombers. | 0:16:00 | 0:16:02 | |
Yes. Yes, they named me that, yeah. | 0:16:02 | 0:16:04 | |
I was named as such. | 0:16:04 | 0:16:06 | |
Not proven, but named. | 0:16:06 | 0:16:17 | |
How many people planted the bombs? | 0:16:17 | 0:16:19 | |
Two. Two. | 0:16:19 | 0:16:20 | |
And who were they? | 0:16:20 | 0:16:21 | |
I'm not telling you. Were you one of them? | 0:16:21 | 0:16:24 | |
I'm not telling you. | 0:16:24 | 0:16:25 | |
I mean, you were named in 1990 as being one of... | 0:16:25 | 0:16:28 | |
I know I was named, yes, I know I was named, yes. | 0:16:28 | 0:16:31 | |
I know I was named. | 0:16:31 | 0:16:32 | |
Did you plant a bomb in the Tavern in the Town and the Mulberry Bush? | 0:16:32 | 0:16:36 | |
I'm not telling you, no. | 0:16:36 | 0:16:38 | |
I'm not telling you. I'm not telling you. | 0:16:38 | 0:16:40 | |
So what was your role in the Birmingham bombings? | 0:16:40 | 0:16:43 | |
As I just told you, I was a participant in the IRA's | 0:16:43 | 0:16:46 | |
activities in Birmingham. | 0:16:46 | 0:16:52 | |
I was an active volunteer. | 0:16:52 | 0:16:53 | |
An active volunteer. | 0:16:53 | 0:16:54 | |
Did you plant the Birmingham pub bomb that killed 21 people | 0:16:54 | 0:16:57 | |
in November 1974? | 0:16:57 | 0:16:58 | |
Again, no comment. | 0:16:58 | 0:16:59 | |
Why won't you answer the question? | 0:16:59 | 0:17:00 | |
No comment. No comment. | 0:17:00 | 0:17:07 | |
I've been accused...I've been accused of a lot of things, | 0:17:07 | 0:17:10 | |
without one shred...one shred of forensic evidence, | 0:17:10 | 0:17:12 | |
without one statement made, without one witness | 0:17:12 | 0:17:14 | |
coming against me. | 0:17:14 | 0:17:15 | |
Not one. | 0:17:15 | 0:17:25 | |
But did you plant the bombs? | 0:17:26 | 0:17:30 | |
I was a participant in the IRA's campaign in England. | 0:17:30 | 0:17:33 | |
You are not answering the question. | 0:17:33 | 0:17:35 | |
Did you plant the bombs? | 0:17:35 | 0:17:37 | |
I'm giving you the only answer I can give you. | 0:17:37 | 0:17:40 | |
The only one that I can give you. | 0:17:40 | 0:17:42 | |
I will leave it to your viewers, your editorial staff, | 0:17:42 | 0:17:45 | |
whoever they are, to work out what I'm saying. | 0:17:45 | 0:17:47 | |
Again, I take full collective responsibility for all operations | 0:17:47 | 0:17:50 | |
carried out in the West Midlands. | 0:17:50 | 0:17:51 | |
I take collective responsibility for every IRA operation carried out | 0:17:51 | 0:17:54 | |
in England, let alone Birmingham. | 0:17:54 | 0:17:58 | |
So you are taking responsibility for the Birmingham pub bombs? | 0:17:58 | 0:18:10 | |
I will accept responsibility for them. | 0:18:10 | 0:18:12 | |
As collective responsibility, that's what I will accept. | 0:18:12 | 0:18:14 | |
That's what I will take. | 0:18:14 | 0:18:16 | |
Michael Hayes was not operating alone as part of the Birmingham IRA | 0:18:16 | 0:18:19 | |
on the night of the bombings. | 0:18:19 | 0:18:21 | |
One of his associates with this man, Mick Murray. | 0:18:21 | 0:18:23 | |
He was in the dock along with the Birmingham six but faced | 0:18:23 | 0:18:26 | |
lesser charges and got a nine-year sentence for bomb-related offences. | 0:18:26 | 0:18:35 | |
What was Mick Murray's role the night of the Birmingham pub | 0:18:35 | 0:18:39 | |
bombs? | 0:18:39 | 0:18:39 | |
He phoned the warning. | 0:18:39 | 0:18:40 | |
As I understand. | 0:18:40 | 0:18:41 | |
He phoned the warning. | 0:18:41 | 0:18:42 | |
He phoned the warning. | 0:18:42 | 0:18:48 | |
And, obviously, he was too late with his warning. | 0:18:48 | 0:18:50 | |
There was a valuable eight minutes lost if my memory serves me correct. | 0:18:50 | 0:18:54 | |
Mick Murray was also named in the Granada TV documentary | 0:18:54 | 0:18:56 | |
and died in 1999. | 0:18:56 | 0:19:01 | |
The programme also identified Seamus McLoughlin - | 0:19:01 | 0:19:03 | |
known as Belfast Jimmy, a native of Ardoyne - | 0:19:03 | 0:19:06 | |
as the man in charge of the Birmingham IRA at the time | 0:19:06 | 0:19:09 | |
of the attacks. | 0:19:09 | 0:19:12 | |
He had a paramilitary-style funeral three years ago. | 0:19:12 | 0:19:17 | |
The fourth man was Jimmy Gavin, he's buried in the IRA's, | 0:19:17 | 0:19:20 | |
Republican plot in Glasnevin Cemetery in Dublin. | 0:19:20 | 0:19:22 | |
On returning to Ireland after the Birmingham bombings, | 0:19:22 | 0:19:24 | |
Jimmy Gavin served a life sentence after he murdered a man | 0:19:24 | 0:19:27 | |
in Dublin in 1977. | 0:19:27 | 0:19:32 | |
James Francis Gavin was a prominent member of the IRA in Birmingham... | 0:19:33 | 0:19:36 | |
..so far as I'm aware, though he never told me this | 0:19:36 | 0:19:39 | |
and he too is dead. | 0:19:39 | 0:19:47 | |
The bombs were collected from his house. | 0:19:47 | 0:19:48 | |
Whether he was one of the planters or not, I don't know. | 0:19:48 | 0:19:52 | |
He made bombs. | 0:19:52 | 0:19:52 | |
He made up bombs. | 0:19:52 | 0:19:56 | |
He was a volunteer - an explosives volunteer. | 0:19:56 | 0:20:03 | |
He was a bomb maker? | 0:20:04 | 0:20:05 | |
Yeah. | 0:20:05 | 0:20:05 | |
Did he make the Birmingham pub bombs? | 0:20:05 | 0:20:10 | |
I've no comment to make. | 0:20:10 | 0:20:12 | |
So you and Jimmy Gavin, as he was known, worked together | 0:20:13 | 0:20:16 | |
as two IRA bomb makers in Birmingham in the early '70s. | 0:20:16 | 0:20:19 | |
We were both into explosives, yes. | 0:20:19 | 0:20:20 | |
High explosives. | 0:20:20 | 0:20:21 | |
We were both explosives men, yeah. | 0:20:21 | 0:20:30 | |
The final suspect has never been publicly identified. | 0:20:30 | 0:20:32 | |
While the name of the fifth member of the gang has been kept secret | 0:20:32 | 0:20:39 | |
for 43 years, the impact of what the IRA did that night, | 0:20:39 | 0:20:42 | |
is felt to this very day. | 0:20:42 | 0:20:44 | |
The relatives of the victims have always wanted the names | 0:20:44 | 0:20:46 | |
of the suspects to be disclosed at the inquest. | 0:20:46 | 0:20:50 | |
But just last week, the coroner ruled their identities won't be | 0:20:50 | 0:20:53 | |
discussed, a blow to the families - who have called his decision | 0:20:53 | 0:20:57 | |
a whitewash. | 0:20:57 | 0:20:58 | |
I lost my father in the Birmingham pub bombs. | 0:20:58 | 0:21:00 | |
For me, I want to know who done it. | 0:21:00 | 0:21:03 | |
There was a lot of speculation about who may and who may not have | 0:21:03 | 0:21:06 | |
done it and I go through my daily life, I'm a Brummie, | 0:21:06 | 0:21:16 | |
I still spend a lot of time in Birmingham and I never quite know | 0:21:16 | 0:21:19 | |
who I'm standing next to and I may well be standing next to the person | 0:21:19 | 0:21:23 | |
that killed my father. | 0:21:23 | 0:21:33 | |
You were ashamed? | 0:21:33 | 0:21:34 | |
Yes. | 0:21:34 | 0:21:34 | |
I'm deeply ashamed. | 0:21:34 | 0:21:35 | |
Not ashamed of the IRA's role... | 0:21:35 | 0:21:36 | |
..but ashamed of the fact that such things had to happen. | 0:21:36 | 0:21:39 | |
The IRA has never formally claimed responsibility or apologised | 0:21:39 | 0:21:42 | |
directly to the families for the 1974 pub bombings in Birmingham. | 0:21:42 | 0:21:45 | |
But Mick Hayes says he is sorry. | 0:21:45 | 0:21:47 | |
My message is as it has always been. | 0:21:47 | 0:21:49 | |
My apologies and my heartfelt sympathy to all of you for | 0:21:49 | 0:21:52 | |
a terrible, tragic loss that you've been put through. | 0:21:52 | 0:21:54 | |
And for all these years you've been trying to find closure, | 0:21:54 | 0:21:57 | |
I hope at last God will be merciful and bring you closure. | 0:21:57 | 0:22:06 | |
And I apologise not only for myself, I apologise for all Republicans | 0:22:06 | 0:22:09 | |
who had no intention of hurting anybody and sympathise with you. | 0:22:09 | 0:22:24 | |
Would an apology mean anything if someone was to say, | 0:22:24 | 0:22:26 | |
look, I am sorry, it was a mistake, we didn't mean it. | 0:22:26 | 0:22:30 | |
No! | 0:22:30 | 0:22:33 | |
No, no, no, no. | 0:22:33 | 0:22:37 | |
No. | 0:22:37 | 0:22:38 | |
No, it would be insulting. | 0:22:38 | 0:22:39 | |
You've murdered 21 people and all you've got is "sorry"? | 0:22:39 | 0:22:42 | |
What about, "I did it, I'm handing myself in." | 0:22:42 | 0:22:44 | |
That might help. | 0:22:44 | 0:22:45 | |
An apology? | 0:22:45 | 0:22:46 | |
Please, don't insult us. | 0:22:46 | 0:22:52 | |
Do you have a clear conscience? | 0:22:52 | 0:22:53 | |
Very much so, yes. | 0:22:53 | 0:22:55 | |
I can sleep at night-time. | 0:22:55 | 0:22:56 | |
Yes, I do. | 0:22:56 | 0:22:57 | |
Because I'm not a murderer. | 0:22:57 | 0:23:00 | |
I'd like them to grow some balls and come forward and say, | 0:23:00 | 0:23:04 | |
"I did it and I'm prepared to serve the time "for the heinous crime | 0:23:04 | 0:23:07 | |
I've committed." | 0:23:07 | 0:23:08 | |
No more, no less. | 0:23:08 | 0:23:14 | |
But why don't you just come clean on your role | 0:23:14 | 0:23:17 | |
in the Birmingham pub bombings? | 0:23:17 | 0:23:18 | |
I gave you an answer. | 0:23:18 | 0:23:20 | |
I didn't tell you an untruth. | 0:23:20 | 0:23:22 | |
I gave you an answer. | 0:23:22 | 0:23:30 | |
Why don't you answer the question? | 0:23:30 | 0:23:31 | |
It's the only way I can answer you. | 0:23:31 | 0:23:34 | |
That's the only way I can answer you. | 0:23:34 | 0:23:36 | |
You can think what you wish. | 0:23:36 | 0:23:38 | |
As the viewers will think, as the people who read | 0:23:39 | 0:23:44 | |
this will think. | 0:23:44 | 0:23:45 | |
You must think as you wish. | 0:23:45 | 0:23:46 | |
The coroner has ruled he won't allow the names of the suspects to be | 0:23:46 | 0:23:50 | |
discussed at the forthcoming inquests. | 0:23:50 | 0:23:51 | |
The relatives say that they are well used to setbacks | 0:23:52 | 0:23:54 | |
in their quest for justice. | 0:23:54 | 0:23:55 | |
Unless the coroner's decision is overturned, | 0:23:56 | 0:23:57 | |
what you've just heard could be the fullest account anyone will hear | 0:23:57 | 0:24:00 | |
about one of the largest unsolved mass murders ever carried out | 0:24:00 | 0:24:03 | |
on British soil. | 0:24:03 | 0:24:10 |