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This is Hillsborough, the home of Sheffield Wednesday Football Club. | :00:04. | :00:08. | |
On 15th April 1989, it was the scene of the worst disaster in | :00:08. | :00:16. | |
British football history. Though 23 the Hillsborough disaster, | :00:16. | :00:21. | |
particularly on Merseyside, has never gone away. That's despite the | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
fact that a judicial inquiry made it crystal clear that the 96 deaths | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
were the direct result of terrible mistakes made by the senior police | :00:27. | :00:34. | |
officers who were in charge that day. For the past two years, a | :00:34. | :00:36. | |
panel of independent experts has been examining every official | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
document from around the time of the Hillsborough disaster. On | :00:41. | :00:46. | |
Wednesday, the panel releases its report. Only then will we discover | :00:46. | :00:52. | |
if they've found any new and significant information. Tonight, | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
we hear the stories of some of those most intimately involved, as | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
we try to find out if we can ever really know the truth about | :00:58. | :01:08. | |
The clock was locked on 3.06. As sun shone down upon the pitch. | :01:08. | :01:13. | |
Lighting up faces etched in pain. As death descended on Leppings Lane. | :01:13. | :01:23. | |
| :01:23. | :01:31. | ||
Between the bars an arm is raised. Amidst a human tidal wave. | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
What I regret is not being with my son when he most needed me. I | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
resent everyone who done wrong to James. It's took me a long, long | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
time to understand the anger, cos I was angry. They were angry with me, | :01:43. | :01:51. | |
I was angry with them. They are accusing me of basically killing | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
people. When I saw the headline "The Truth", | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
I was aghast because that wasn't what I'd written. | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
So is the lingering anger over Hillsborough a case of grieving | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
families who can't get over the deaths of their loved ones? Or are | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
families of the dead, in fact, fully justified to still be furious | :02:07. | :02:14. | |
about the lies told in the On 15th April 1989, Hillsborough | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
was the chosen neutral venue for the FA Cup semi-final between | :02:16. | :02:22. | |
Liverpool and Nottingham Forest. Thousands of Liverpool fans made | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
their way across the Pennines. Many journeys were delayed by huge | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
traffic problems on the M62. One of the 96 Hillsborough victims who | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
made the journey that day was James Aspinall. Only 18, James had just | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
started his first job after after leaving school in Knowsley. He | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
travelled to Sheffield with his friend, Graham Wright. Both died. | :02:45. | :02:53. | |
The thing I do regret is not saying to James, "Be safe". The last thing | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
I done for James was put his cross and chain on. I'd bought him a few | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
weeks earlier, a chain for his 18th birthday, and he couldn't always | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
put the clasp on himself. And that morning going out to the game he | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
just said to me, "Mum, will you put me chain on for me please." And the | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
last words I remember saying to James were, "You'll have to learn | :03:12. | :03:19. | |
how to do this yourself, James, Dave Kirby is a writer and a | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
fanatical Liverpool fan. In the '80s, he followed his team across | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
the country. On the day of the disaster, he made the 80-mile trip | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
from Liverpool to Sheffield. It was the second year in a row that | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
Liverpool had played in an FA Cup semi-final at Hillsborough. It was | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
a lovely day like today. Sun shining. 12 months previously, we'd | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
been there before. Very similar circumstances. We'd played | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
Nottingham Forest in the semi-final of the FA Cup. You see this tunnel. | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
And you can see a bit of the pitch through this tunnel and you just | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
automatically think you go down that tunnel and disperse inside. | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
But little did you realise that when you got in there, it was a pen. | :03:57. | :03:59. | |
A complete and closed pen. John Wilson was a young South | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
Yorkshire police officer in 1989. While events were escalating at | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
Hillsborough, John was elsewhere in the stadium doing the paperwork for | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
an arrest he'd made earlier that afternoon. With all officers being | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
scrambled to the Leppings Lane end, John found himself without a police | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
radio, having to react instinctively to the horror that | :04:15. | :04:21. | |
was unfolding. We got to know that something was going wrong and I | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
think the intimation was that it was some trouble, as in fighting, | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
or whatever it was. The official inquiry by Lord Justice Peter | :04:29. | :04:31. | |
Taylor confirmed that the Police Commander, David Duckenfield, had | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
ordered that Gate C be opened to reduce a potentially life- | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
threatening crush that had developed by the turnstiles outside | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
the ground. But Lord Taylor found that rather than helping the | :04:42. | :04:44. | |
situation, Duckenfield's fateful decision actually led to the | :04:44. | :04:50. | |
disaster. The rush of fans who went through the gate made for the most | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
obvious entrance to the Leppings Lane terrace. Thousands of fans now | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
tried to enter through a narrow tunnel at the rear of the terrace | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
into two already overcrowded central pens. Within minutes, fans | :05:00. | :05:06. | |
were dead or dying. We got to the tunnel entrance and it was fairly | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
full, but you could see people starting to come away and you could, | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
as you walked down the tunnel, we struggled to get through, you could | :05:12. | :05:21. | |
see bodies on the floor of people. Now obviously they appeared dead at | :05:21. | :05:28. | |
that stage, so we walked down the tunnel. As we're walking down the | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
tunnel, people saying, you know, words to the effect, "It's your | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
fault," effing and blinding and I didn't really understand why at | :05:34. | :05:41. | |
that point. People were screaming. The unmerciful screaming. That's | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
what lives with you years later. The screams that you're hearing and | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
things that you see. But you started realising that something | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
terrible was going on. But the police still didn't react. It was | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
so bizarre. Because the fans that day, they reacted quicker than the | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
authorites. These days, Mark Edwardson is a reporter on BBC | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
North West Tonight. But on the day of the match, he was a young | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
Liverpool fan with a prized semi- final ticket for the Leppings Lane | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
End. He found himself in midst of the deadly crush. I was stood face | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
to face with this bloke who I didn't know, I hadn't gone to the | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
match with. I just ended up being face to face with him in this crush. | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
We were chest to chest. We were nose to nose. And I was getting to | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
a point where I didn't want to breath out because I was worried if | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
I breathed out, I wouldn't be able to breathe in again. I realised | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
that down by our legs, there was more space. So I started to sort of | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
wriggle down. And I'd only gone down a couple of inches, and this | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
man, and I know it sounds trite, but I kind of owe my life to, just | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
screamed at me straight away. He knew exactly what I was going to do. | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
He could see I was going down. And he just screamed. "Don't effing do | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
it. Don't effing do it. You'll never effing come back. Stop. | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
Stop!" And he was wasting his breath, he might have thought it | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
was his last breath as well, to stop me from doing what I was. And | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
that was it. That's when I realised if I'm going to do something about | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
this, I've got to at least stay up. Because that's actually the only | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
way I'm going to stay alive because if I go down, the gate will close | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
over the top of me and that would have been the end. That would have | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
been absolutely the end of me. He realised that, and I thank him to | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
this day because without him it could have been a different story. | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
The police were like rabbits in the headlamps. There were about six or | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
seven officers by the fence. And you had reporters taking pictures | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
of the carnage and stuff, but there was no-one reacting. It was | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
horrendous. And there were people in the stands behind pulling them | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
up. Everyone knew there was something catastrophic going on, | :07:47. | :07:57. | |
| :07:57. | :08:00. | ||
And the next thing, we're going down this tunnel which seems like a | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
cave, it seems really dark and all these people are coming out, and | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
there are bodies on the floor and it doesn't really register at first, | :08:06. | :08:15. | |
and it didn't register for some time after the incident. So then we | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
got through the people in the tunnel and started to go down the | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
terrace, which was still pretty full. As we went down the terrace, | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
obviously there were bodies on the terraced area and we made our way | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
towards one individual who was on the floor, one youngish lad, who I | :08:30. | :08:40. | |
| :08:40. | :08:41. | ||
can't really remember a lot about, apart from some of his clothing. I | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
remember him, and a colleague of mine was already there, trying to | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
revive him, giving him mouth to mouth and all that, so I got down | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
to do the same, so we were both chest compressions, mouth to mouth | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
and while we were there I know people were throwing coins down and | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
we could hear people effing and blinding, swearing, shouting. There | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
were people up there who were obviously really upset and really | :09:01. | :09:11. | |
| :09:11. | :09:13. | ||
angry. In retrospect, that's understandable. We were then | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
assigned to move bodies from the terrace terrier and through the | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
perimeter gate around the pitch. We moved about 15 people. There was | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
another man that I remember quite distinctly from that day, although | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
I've no idea who he was or what he looked like. And that was because | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
in the crush, I'd got turned round so I'd got my head to the back of | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
the pitch and he was behind me. He was up against one of the crush | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
bars in the pen. To describe his words as harrowing is really | :09:40. | :09:46. | |
understating how horrific it must have been for him. He was pleading | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
to me to give him some space. I was back to back with him. He was | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
pleading with me to give him some space and saying, "I'm having a | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
heart attack, I'm having a heart attack. You've got to give me some | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
space. I'm dying." Of course by this stage I couldn't move. Nobody | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
else could move. This is a football match, where things like that don't | :10:05. | :10:11. | |
happen, I'd never seen anything like that. I was almost 29, I'd | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
never seen anything like that, you know. I'd seen dead people before | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
I'd joined the job, but never in circumstances like that. Can you | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
remember anything about the people you were having to move? Not a | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
thing, can't, just predominantly they were male, and from what I can | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
remember they were male, obviously looking back now they were male, | :10:29. | :10:37. | |
but other than that, can't remember a thing. I don't see faces, don't | :10:37. | :10:43. | |
see features when I look back, it's just a...blank face. You don't see | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
a nose, a mouth, eyes, you just see a blank face. I can't put any | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
features on people's faces, I can't distinctly remember the kid I tried | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
to revive, you know. I've looked on my statement and that refers to | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
clothing and I think he'd got light coloured hair. Would you like to be | :11:01. | :11:11. | |
| :11:11. | :11:42. | ||
I'd like to know the... I'd like to For Margaret Aspinall, there was | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
still the gruesome duty of visiting her son at the makeshift morgue | :11:45. | :11:51. | |
that had been set up at Sheffield Wednesday. And you were waiting, | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
and someone offered me a cup of tea. And I said, I just want to see my | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
son. Please take me to my son. He's my son. I want him to know that his | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
mum's here. OK, OK, calm down. I eventually get called through to | :12:05. | :12:15. | |
| :12:15. | :12:15. | ||
this room. And I remember there was this blue curtain. A glass | :12:15. | :12:24. | |
partition. And they just said to me, are you ready? And I said, ready | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
for what? I just want me son. And they pulled the curtain back, and | :12:27. | :12:36. | |
my son was there. I said I need to cuddle him and they said they can't | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
let me go in to give him a kiss, to cuddle him. And I said I need to go | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
in and cuddle him. I need to go in to see my son. I need to take him | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
home. I've got his coat. I'll take him home. And someone, I don't know | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
who, said, "Mrs Aspinall he does not belong to you no more. He | :12:53. | :12:59. | |
But even as the disaster was unfolding, an alternative version | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
of the truth was being spun by senior South Yorkshire police | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
officers. The police match commander, David Duckenfield, lied | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
to a senior official from the Football Association, saying it was | :13:09. | :13:17. | |
the Liverpool fans who'd forced the The BBC weren't alone in reporting | :13:17. | :13:24. | |
this erroneous version of events. 74 football supporters are reported | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
to have been crushed to death at the FA Cup semi-final at | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
Hillsborough this afternoon. Hundreds more were injured. Fans | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
rushed through a broken turnstile, crushing Liverpool supporters at | :13:34. | :13:44. | |
| :13:44. | :13:50. | ||
It happened on the day that a false story was being manufactured by the | :13:50. | :13:58. | |
police. David Duckenfield was telling the FA executive in the | :13:58. | :14:05. | |
control room that the fans had pushed their way in and forced | :14:05. | :14:11. | |
their way in. Of course it was bowled on. They were drunk, they | :14:11. | :14:17. | |
did not have tickets, it was not their fault. That was the seed. He | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
knew. It was called by the judge an outrageous lie. It was an | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
outrageous lie but the lie has stuck. Can you understand the | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
bitterness of the Liverpool fans, especially when it emerged that | :14:30. | :14:36. | |
senior officers like David Duckenfield had effectively covered | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
up parts of their actions? He did not help, did it? No. I think it | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
was found that David Duckenfield lied. He tried to blame it | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
immediately on the Liverpool fans. That was a massive error. There was | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
going to be a backlash. There is no doubt that the vast majority of | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
people that turned up came to a game of football. Just as the | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
police turned up simply to police a football match, not to hurt anybody. | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
On Merseyside, it is the accusation that somehow the disaster was the | :15:07. | :15:12. | |
fault of the fans themselves that has always cut particularly deep. | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
The most notorious article to appear in the week after the | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
disaster featured on the front page of The Sun, headlined 'The Truth'. | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
Such was the anger that 23 years on following its publication there are | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
still many on Merseyside who refuse to buy The Sun as a result. Harry | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
Arnold is the journalist who wrote the article. Now semi-retired, he | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
has never previously spoken on camera about what happened. | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
involvement began. I think it was four days later when the | :15:44. | :15:50. | |
allegations began to emerge. In newspapers, as in television, if an | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
allegation is made, it is your duty to report the allegation. But at | :15:55. | :16:00. | |
the same time to give the other side the opportunity to respond. | :16:00. | :16:05. | |
The allegations included suggestions that France had | :16:05. | :16:12. | |
urinated on victims on a level below them. -- fans. That a young | :16:12. | :16:19. | |
woman who was dead had been abused. And fans were generally accused of | :16:20. | :16:29. | |
behaving in a drunken, disorderly fashion. It will always be very, | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
very difficult to know whether any of the allegations were true or | :16:34. | :16:40. | |
partly true or totally untrue. But they were allegations and that was | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
how I wrote them, as allegations. There was no drunkenness. It was | :16:45. | :16:53. | |
all a myth. It laid the blame. The drunkenness was exposed as a myth. | :16:53. | :16:59. | |
The majority of fans were not drunk or not even worse for drink. | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
think the worst allegations, the strongest allegations, came from a | :17:03. | :17:10. | |
news agency. What makes me believe strongly that it came from a news | :17:10. | :17:16. | |
agency is that it appeared in other newspapers. The famous St Mark | :17:16. | :17:18. | |
Twain and Winston Churchill, that Allied get round the world before | :17:18. | :17:24. | |
the truth has put its trousers on. -- lies get round the world. If you | :17:25. | :17:31. | |
want to make sure a version is remembered, you get in first. | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
not see Liverpool fans urinating on any police officers and I did not | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
see any Liverpool fans stealing money or picking money up, stealing | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
money from dead people or picking many of that had fallen out of | :17:43. | :17:49. | |
people's pockets. I did not see that. As far as I'm concerned, I | :17:49. | :17:55. | |
did not see it, so it probably did not happen. But on The Sun, Kelvin | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
MacKenzie the rather controversial editor at the time, like to write | :17:59. | :18:04. | |
his own headlines. He wrote the headline 'The Truth'. The reason I | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
know that, I was about to leave the newsroom when I saw him drawing up | :18:08. | :18:14. | |
the front page. I saw the headline, 'The Truth'. I was aghast. That was | :18:14. | :18:20. | |
not what I had written. I had never used the words this is the truth | :18:20. | :18:26. | |
about the Hillsborough disaster. I had merely written it, I hope and I | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
still believe, in a balanced and fair way. I said to Kelvin | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
MacKenzie that you cannot say that and he said why not? I said we did | :18:33. | :18:39. | |
not know what was the truth and this was a version of the truth. He | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
brushed it aside and said don't worry. He was going to make it | :18:42. | :18:48. | |
clear that this is what some people are saying. I walked away thinking, | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
well, I am not happy about the situation. But the fact is that | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
reporters do not argue with an editor. And in particular, you do | :18:56. | :19:02. | |
not argue with an editor like Kelvin MacKenzie. Talk about | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
kicking us when we are down. That was our hour of need. We were | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
looking for compassion and understanding. And then they came | :19:11. | :19:21. | |
| :19:21. | :19:21. | ||
out with that despicable, obscene, rancid for third. Some broadsheets | :19:21. | :19:26. | |
went with it, but it was The Sun. Picking pockets of dead people, | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
urinating on them, it was so bizarre and far-fetched. It was | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
designed to cast a smear and that is what it did. Its long mad and | :19:35. | :19:42. | |
mud sticks. That story with my name on it headlined 'The Truth' was the | :19:42. | :19:49. | |
unhappiest episode of my career. I had to use the material in front of | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
me, and I stress that they were allegations. But what made it all | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
go terribly wrong was when the editor put those two words on the | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
front page in huge letters, 'The Truth'. He has never been able to | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
live that down, but as I did not write the headline, I have been | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
able to live with it, albeit unhappily. We approached Kelvin | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
MacKenzie to get his response, but he declined to comment. Lord | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
Justice Taylor's report into the tragedy was unequivocal. It was | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
mismanagement by senior officers of the South Yorkshire police that was | :20:25. | :20:30. | |
the prime cause of the disaster. But no police officer has ever been | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
convicted of any crime as a result of what happened. For some of the | :20:34. | :20:40. | |
relatives of the dead, that is very hard to take. How do you describe | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
justice? What do you mean by justice? What I mean by Justice is | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
accountability. Somebody being responsible and being held to be | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
responsible for the death of 96 people. It is not about vengeance. | :20:54. | :20:59. | |
It is not an eye for an eye. It is the truth of Hillsborough. Instead | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
of blaming the fans and the people that died, put the responsibility | :21:03. | :21:08. | |
where it rightfully belongs, and that is accountability to me. | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
Accountability is absolutely vital and it applies, as I say, to every | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
single occupation. Whatever decisions to take, the BBC takes, I | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
take, I have to be accountable. I can't say, I am sorry, I cannot do | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
my job if I have to explain what I have done. They absolutely do. | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
Taylor Report was fairly clear in that it said the bulk of the | :21:30. | :21:35. | |
responsibility lay at the hands of senior officers at the time. They | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
had made mistakes in opening the gates. When that Taylor Report came | :21:40. | :21:46. | |
up, what was your reaction to that? Anger. I thought it was not our | :21:46. | :21:53. | |
fault. It was not what we had done. I had got into the defensive sort | :21:53. | :21:58. | |
of mine said. They hated me, I hated them. But over the years I | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
have been able to think, hang on, looking at this logically, I can | :22:02. | :22:07. | |
understand their anger. You can understand why the finger was | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
pointed at us, but it became personal. When they said the police, | :22:11. | :22:18. | |
they said me. That is how you felt? Yes. So in turn I was against them. | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
I had got my back against the wall, this is not my fault, I did not do | :22:23. | :22:29. | |
anything wrong. I did not kill 96 people. But it is only over the | :22:29. | :22:36. | |
years, very, very recently, that I have come to accept, like I said, | :22:36. | :22:41. | |
that things did go wrong. What is the point of us blaming each other? | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
What is the point of us hating each other? It did not change a thing. | :22:45. | :22:53. | |
It does not bring people back. I think now is the time, and maybe I | :22:53. | :23:00. | |
am being a bit optimistic, really for reconciliation. Not for us to | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
hate each other and fight against each other, but just to sit down | :23:04. | :23:12. | |
and say, well, this happened. Mistakes were made. Events came | :23:12. | :23:18. | |
together to create a cataclysmic event. Which we will hopefully | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
never see again and what we have never seen before. South Yorkshire | :23:23. | :23:25. | |
police in 2012 is barely recognisable from the police force | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
of the 80s under the command of the then Chief Constable Peter Wright. | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
Reforms began and his successor, Richard Wells, and from 2004 the | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
man in the hot seat in South Yorkshire was Meredydd Hughes. | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
Three years ago it was Meredydd Hughes who initiated the plan to | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
have an independent panel of experts review every official | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
document from the time of the tragedy. The panel reveals its | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
findings on Wednesday. But many remain suspicious that some | :23:52. | :23:58. | |
documents may have gone missing. Do you think this set of documents is | :23:58. | :24:04. | |
complete? Do you think everything is in there? It is a hard thing. | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
That is a question that is hard to answer. People have asked if we | :24:09. | :24:14. | |
have trust in the independent panel. Yes. But that is a different thing. | :24:14. | :24:20. | |
Why have trust in other people to hand over everything? Has anything | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
been shredded? I do not have that trust. I do have the trust in the | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
panel that what they have got they will scrutinise and looked at | :24:27. | :24:36. | |
properly. But it is the difference -- a different scenario that | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
everything has been handed over. I don't have that trust and that is | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
because of what we have gone through 423 years. As far as I know, | :24:43. | :24:49. | |
every document is there. It is the role of the Bishop of Liverpool to | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
satisfy himself that the documents are used correctly. It is one of | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
the reasons why I stepped forward to do it voluntarily. I have no axe | :24:57. | :25:06. | |
to grind and I have no interest in hiding anything. I am wondering in | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
400,000 documents the extent to which the panel have been able to | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
identify whether they have been given everything. What assurances | :25:14. | :25:24. | |
| :25:24. | :25:24. | ||
have this sort? -- have they sought? Secondly, are they dogmas | :25:24. | :25:30. | |
that they have not got? And thirdly, or are they going to allow the | :25:30. | :25:34. | |
public and the families to see everything or will it be edited? | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
People are still talking about Hillsborough 23 years later. It is | :25:38. | :25:43. | |
not going away. It has been a bit of a blight. It is an event of | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
history. The force get on with its day-to-day work. Apart from a | :25:47. | :25:53. | |
handful of officers who were here at the time, there is not a sense | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
of collective guilt around the events of the past. I don't think | :25:56. | :26:03. | |
any of us could function of that was the case. I come from South | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
Wales where the police force managed and delivered the Aberfan | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
disaster response. I am sure that mistakes were made that day in the | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
60s and the response was not as effective as it could have been, | :26:14. | :26:20. | |
but by the time I joined that force in 1979, it does not live in a | :26:20. | :26:25. | |
memory in quite that way. Meredydd Hughes is right, at | :26:25. | :26:30. | |
Hillsborough is simply an event of history. But Hillsborough and its | :26:30. | :26:37. | |
pain and its memories remains very much, not just in Merseyside but | :26:37. | :26:44. | |
deep within his own force. Perhaps the best he can say is that the | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
release of these documents might just be the start of a new chapter. | :26:48. | :26:55. | |
Have you spoken about this before? To anybody? Over the past few years, | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
yes. I have been to councillors. I am not ashamed to say it. I have | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
been to councillors and I have discussed the situation with them. | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
I have discussed what happened and why. And how I personally get | :27:10. | :27:17. | |
through it. To an extent, that has helped. I don't think it will ever | :27:17. | :27:22. | |
be forgotten. It is just how I deal with it personally now. What I | :27:22. | :27:27. | |
regret is not being with my son when he most needed me. I resent | :27:28. | :27:32. | |
everybody who did wrong to James. I was there when he took his first | :27:32. | :27:40. | |
breath. I regret that when he most needed me, I was not with him, on | :27:40. | :27:47. | |
his last breath. But that is the memory I have got of My beautiful | :27:47. | :27:53. | |
son, going off that morning. I am sorry, I apologise to all the | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
families for this, because when I talk about James I feel as though | :27:56. | :28:01. | |
I'm forgetting the other 95. None of them deserved to die, but you | :28:01. | :28:09. | |
have asked me about James and I have got to answer truthfully. I | :28:09. | :28:18. | |
just wish I had been there for him. Was he asking for me in his mind? I | :28:18. | :28:22. |