Michael Grade's Stars of the Musical Theatre

This programme contains some strong language

Times Square, the beating heart of Broadway -

home of the musical theatre.

I've always loved musicals.

The singing, the dancing, the stories and the stars.

Especially the stars.

That space on that stage

is like no other place in the world.

There's nothing like it, there's no medium like it.

To fool, to surprise...

to shock an audience...

is very powerful.

The musical is one of America's greatest contributions

to modern culture.

It embodies the drive, the imagination

and the showmanship of this great nation.

And on our side of the Atlantic

we not only embraced the musical,

we re-invented it and made it our own.

But is it the stars that make a musical great,

or do great musicals make the stars?

For me, there's an alchemy takes place

when a great show finds a performer who can interpret its magic.

These magicians are the musical greats.

Isn't it the best thing in the world

to pretend to be somebody else for a living?

SHE LAUGHS

It's so uplifting and it's so demanding and challenging.

It's great.

As Cameron will tell you, when you ask for more money,

"I don't need you.

"The star of the show is the show."

# When I'm with a pistol

# I sparkle like a crystal

# Yes, I shine like the morning... #

The inimitable Ethel Merman,

the loudest, brassiest voice in the business

in Irving Berlin's Annie Get Your Gun.

# Oh, you can't get a man with a gun. #

This was the very first musical I ever saw on the stage,

must have been six or seven at the time,

and so began my lifelong passion

for the musical theatre and its stars.

# There's no business like show business

# Like no business I know... #

Annie Get Your Gun and Merman

will be for ever linked by that showbiz anthem,

but it's not Shakespeare and Merman is no Judi Dench.

She was the first lady of musical comedy

in an era when musicals had no literary pretensions.

'All that was about to change.'

In 1943 a show opened on Broadway

that ushered in a whole new era for the musical theatre.

It began badly.

After seeing a preview,

the New York columnist Walter Winchell famously quipped,

"No gags, no girls, no chance."

How wrong could he be?!

# There's a bright golden haze on the meadow

# The corn is as high... #

"Oklahoma!" is a musical play

about the pioneers of the American South-West.

It made a star of Alfred Drake who played the lead character Curly

and he kicked off the show with a memorable solo.

# Oh, what a beautiful morning

# Oh, what a beautiful day... #

This was something radically new and it brought critical acclaim.

The New York Times gave it a five-star review.

"After a verse like that, sung to a buoyant melody,

"the banalities of the old musical stage became intolerable."

# There's a bright golden haze on the meadow... #

In the 1955 film version of "Oklahoma!",

Curly was played by Gordon McCrae.

I don't think it works quite as well,

but it still manages to retain some of the power

of the original stage production.

That's particularly true of the dream sequence ballet

choreographed by Agnes De Mille.

It brilliantly conveys the struggle between Curly and Jud,

who are vying for the love of Laurey.

WIND HOWLS

What's new is the fusion of story, song and dance

to reveal the fears and desires of the characters.

It was a game-changer that made new demands of its leading actors.

"Oklahoma!" posed what performers called the triple threat -

they had to act, they had to sing and they had to dance.

This was when musical theatre really grew up

and began to create some of the greatest roles ever written.

Over the years there have been countless revivals of "Oklahoma!"

but one of the best in my book

was Trevor Nunn's for the National Theatre in 1998.

He managed to convey the pioneering spirit of these rural folk

as they forged their new community,

and he unearthed a new musical star.

I still had to find my Curly.

I'd been to Australia to set up and cast

a production of Andrew Lloyd Webber's Sunset Boulevard.

A young man came in - tall, strikingly handsome.

And he began to sing and he sang absolutely magically.

He was called Hugh Jackman.

# Oklahoma

# When the wind comes sweeping down the plain

# And the wavin' wheat can sure smell sweet

# When the wind comes right behind the rain... #

So, when I was doing "Oklahoma!"

I-I contacted Hugh and said,

"Come on, take the plunge."

And he so took it in his stride.

# And when we say

# Yo! Ayipioeeay!

# We're only saying, You're doing fine, Oklahoma

# Oklahoma, OK... #

When I saw this show, I'd never heard of the leading man,

but it was obvious -

Hugh Jackman was destined to be a star.

And, of course, it wasn't long before Hollywood came calling.

His portrayal of Curly launched a stellar career.

This is St Paul's Church in Covent Garden.

It features in the opening scene

of one of the most significant musicals of all time -

a musical that created two of the most memorable roles.

I'm talking, of course, about My Fair Lady.

# All I want is a room somewhere... #

Based on George Bernard Shaw's play Pygmalion,

it's the story of a cockney flower girl, Eliza Doolittle,

being transformed from a guttersnipe into an aristocratic lady

by Professor Henry Higgins.

# Lots of chocolate for me to eat... #

It opened on Broadway in 1956, won six Tony Awards

and became the longest running musical of its time.

It starred Julie Andrews and Rex Harrison.

But he wasn't the first choice.

They started with Michael Redgrave and then they asked Noel Coward,

and then they asked Rex Harrison, so he was the third choice.

And Julie Andrews, who'd been a child star in the UK,

how did they stumble on her?

Well, she was in The Boy Friend, before My Fair Lady,

and they all went to see her and just thought she was great.

She was lively, she was very young.

She was a teenager when she was in The Boy Friend,

so she really was very different

from Audrey Hepburn in the film, for instance,

who I think is a little bit old for the part,

even though she's also wonderful in the part.

Wonderful indeed.

I love Audrey Hepburn in the movie from 1964.

Who wouldn't? But it's not her singing.

That credit goes to Marni Nixon.

# Oh, wouldn't it be lovely? #

Alongside her, brilliantly recreating his stage role

is Rex Harrison.

I say, cap'n. N' baw ya flahr orf a pore gel.

Quite often in Broadway musicals

songs get written at the last minute.

Did that happen in My Fair Lady at all?

Rex Harrison was really unhappy about the fact

that his character was getting lost in the second act.

So Lerner knew he had to come up with another song for him.

So he and Harrison were supposedly walking down Fifth Avenue one day

talking about their marital problems,

because they were both married a number of times.

Harrison suddenly shouted out to Lerner,

"Wouldn't it be wonderful if we were both homosexuals?!"

And Lerner said that he didn't think that was the solution

and they walked on.

But later in the day he thought,

"Well, I think I can make a song lyric out of this,"

and it turned into the song...

# Why can't a woman be more like a man?

# Men are so decent

# Such regular chaps

# Ready to help you through any mishaps

# Ready to buck you up whenever you're glum

# Why can't a woman be a chum? #

These are two of the great parts in the musical theatre

and yet people have managed to play those parts,

and be successful in those parts, post Julie and Rex.

Well, it's curious that after Julie Andrews and Rex Harrison

had left the show, the person to replace Julie Andrews

was Sally Ann Howes.

But after that, there were no names in it whatsoever,

and it carried on six and a half years,

so clearly this was the point at which

the show started to be the thing

that carried everything forward.

But without Rex and Julie to start with,

that probably wouldn't have happened, would it?

Indeed not. It needed to have this big draw for the critics,

it needed to be magical,

it needed to have those amazing first night reviews

that then caused everyone to just buy up tickets.

In 1979, a West End revival was staged

by producer Cameron Mackintosh.

It was directed by the show's lyricist Alan Jay Lerner.

Liz Robertson was cast as Eliza.

# All I want is a room somewhere... #

-Difficult...

-Yep.

-..to make that part your own

because of the indelible memory...

-Julie Andrews.

-..of Julie Andrews.

How do you go...? When...?

Well, I never saw her.

I mean, I know I look like her and I sound like her

to a frightening degree

but I never saw her perform it, I only saw her Audrey Hepburn.

But, yes, I knew...

I felt I might have an edge on her with the cockney side

because I was born in Essex and very near

the Greater London, East London area.

But vocally her...that pure voice...

..you can't...you can't better that.

'So you would just try, you would just do what you can do

'and I never...

'I didn't have her spectre sitting on my shoulder, funnily enough.'

# Someone's head resting on my knee

# Warm and tender as he can be

# Who takes good care of me... #

'If you have a part like that

'and you don't make it your own, then you're a fool, I think.'

I mean, it's such a... it's such a gift of a role.

# Lovely

# Lovely

# Lovely

WHISTLING

So you've now got the almost unique experience

-of having Alan Jay Lerner, the author...

-Yes.

-..and lyricist...

-Yes.

..teaching you how to play the part.

And a director, yes, exactly.

What sort of career did that lead to?

Ah, well, it led to the fact that we eventually got married.

SHE LAUGHS

I don't know who could have be more surprised than me...

cos he was everything I was never going to marry, you know,

American and short and a smoker.

HE LAUGHS

But he-he was the most charming, witty, intelligent man

-I ever met.

-Was he your Henry Higgins?

Yes, he was. Yeah.

# The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain. #

By George, she's got it!

My Fair Lady is a musical for every decade.

In 2001 it was revived again,

and Henry Higgins was played

by one of Britain's finest classical actors, Jonathan Pryce.

# In Spain, in Spain... #

'I was playing Macbeth.'

It's a very, difficult, gut-wrenching, dark play to do.

I saw Les Mis, and I saw, these people having an extraordinary time,

evoking incredible emotions within the audience,

especially within me. I thought this...

They're achieving what I am attempting to achieve

playing Macbeth, but they don't seem to be

banging their heads against the wall or going through any kind of angst.

I was quite envious of that performance.

What was the trigger in your mind that made you say yes

to Professor Higgins?

There's going to be a gazillion people booing when I say this,

but I was never a fan of Rex Harrison's performance.

Which helps.

Of course he was brilliant,

but I knew that what I could do differently

was that I could sing it,

whereas Harrison sort of...

..sang spoke.

# I've grown accustomed to her look

# Accustomed to her voice

# Accustomed to her face... #

The star of My Fair Lady is My Fair Lady, it's the piece.

As Cameron will tell you, when you ask for more money.

"I don't need you. Star of the show is the show..."

"..darling."

BOTH: # The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain. #

What is the enduring appeal of My Fair Lady?

How is it that this show after nearly 60 years

can still pack them in?

The latest hit production is here at the Crucible in Sheffield,

and I've come to meet the team.

One of the problems with My Fair Lady

is that people of a certain age can only see Rex Harrison

and they can only hear Julie Andrews.

Makes casting very difficult?

I had worked with Dominic West before

and he seemed perfect to me for the part -

a part that he was born to play.

And then we auditioned around 60 young actresses,

and found one who could do it.

That was Carly Bawden, who has turned out to be a new star.

She takes a lot of energy.

She's so spirited...

..lively and determined and strong.

So she's so physical -

she's so physically and mentally challenging.

I've never done a musical before, and what astonished me

was the level of, professionalism and discipline.

It seems to me on a much higher level

than in straight theatre.

That was the other thing I found difficult -

giving meaning to words in a song.

Very often they get lost,

or I'd find they'd get lost in the melody.

I couldn't give the emphasis that I could in speaking.

Of course the advantage with Higgins is that you can speak a lot of it.

But I found that very difficult,

and I think very good singers are able to do that.

Has it got easier?

Yes. Yes, it has, I suppose, yes.

I talk a lot more...

THEY LAUGH

..than I did. I wanted to sing quite a lot.

I wanted to sing. Well, I started off singing the whole part.

Were you worried that you wouldn't be able to get Rex out of your head?

Oh, I couldn't get him out of my head.

That's the problem.

I mean, it's one of those parts, like, you know,

Brando in Streetcar or Olivier's Richard III -

the actor is completely identified with,

cos it was written for him obviously.

I haven't got him out of my head.

As far as I can tell, I'm just doing an imitation of Rex,

but I'm not because, because you do bring your own thing to it.

My Fair Lady was so demanding because of its literary style.

The other ground-breaking show of the '50s

put even tougher demands on its performers.

They were required to sing, to dance and to act

to a level never seen before.

CHEERING

West Side Story opened on Broadway in 1957.

The film adaptation came out in 1961

and won ten Oscars.

Once you've seen West Side Story,

you can't possibly think of musicals as a lower form of theatrical life.

It really was ground-breaking.

You can imagine saying to your investors,

"Now we're doing a musical about, kids...

"Puerto Ricans and Caucasians, fighting on the streets of New York

"and stabbing each other and killing each other

"and so on and it's all based on Romeo And Juliet."

We raised the money in one day.

The production team of West Side Story

reads like a Who's Who of the American Musical -

Hal Prince as producer, Leonard Bernstein composer,

Stephen Sondheim lyricist

and Jerome Robbins as director and choreographer.

West Side Story was so different from anything that had gone before.

As the Herald Tribune put it,

"The radioactive fallout from West Side Story

"must still be descending on Broadway this morning."

It was a story of the streets, a story of youth culture

in an age when the teenager had only just been discovered.

There are so many great parts in West Side Story,

but I love the character of Anita.

She was played in the movie by Rita Moreno,

and her feisty exuberance is on show in the wonderful song, America.

# I like the island Manhattan

# I know you do

# Smoke on your pipe

# And put that in

-GIRLS:

-# I like to be in America

# OK by me in America

# Everything free in America

# For a small fee in America... #

The lyrics brilliantly contrast the appeal of the new country

against the virtues of the old

and the tune is simply irresistible.

# I have my own washing machine

# What will you have though to keep clean?

# Skyscrapers bloom in America

# Cadillacs zoom in America... #

In the original Broadway production,

Anita was created by Chita Rivera.

The part was to make her a star.

So you get the part of Anita, where do you start?

You take it step by step.

You do it exactly - hear the music,

you listen, you obey.

Dancers are very obedient, they have to be, you know.

Then the choreographer or the director or the whatever,

they see you, and if something fits you better than something else,

they will change it, they create it.

First of all, Jerry said in rehearsals,

"You don't, you don't, talk to any of the Jets,

"you never intermingle at all."

So what did I do?

I married one.

-You married a Jet?

-HE LAUGHS

I married a Jet. So that'll tell him.

He wanted to keep the tension.

-Well, of course, that was superior...

-Even off stage.

That's exactly right.

And were you in separate dressing rooms,

-were you all kept apart?

-Yes, we were.

Absolutely. And that's the best way to have done this show.

What's your favourite moment as Anita in the show?

My favourite moment was A Boy Like That.

# A boy like that would kill your brother

# Forget that boy and find another

# One of your own kind

# Stick to your own kind... #

So I express my sadness and anger,

and she had to sing this very contained, beautiful explanation

for why she allowed him in.

I have a love and that's all that I need, right or wrong,

what else can I do?

I love him. I can't even say it without...

# I love him

# I'm his

# And everything he is

# I am too

# I have a love... #

Is it the star that makes the musical

or is it the musical that makes the star part?

The musical makes the star.

As far as that question is concerned,

it is most definitely the book.

The book, the score, the creative team,

and then we come into it.

West Side Story has this youthful energy about it,

and as youth culture started to take over in the '60s...

the musical went in two directions.

One was this very glossy direction, "Hello Dolly!", Mame.

It was big, it was loud, it was colourful.

And then Cabaret became very intimate, very intense, very real.

And I think that those...

That's the way that musicals ended up, really -

in those two very different directions rather than in one.

In 1969 I was working as a theatrical agent

and all around the times and the culture were changing.

But there was nothing as startling or as radical as Cabaret,

which ran here at the Palace Theatre.

# What good is sitting alone in your room...? #

The original Broadway production won eight Tony awards

and legions of admirers.

It moved the musical in a dark and edgy direction,

portraying the decadence of Berlin as the Nazis rise to power.

The most compelling character

is the club's menacing Master of Ceremonies.

Hallo, stranger.

HE LAUGHS

Originated by Joel Grey on stage

and with an Oscar-winning performance on screen.

Joel, let me try and take you back to that day in your life,

where either your agent calls or a script comes through the post

and it's a thing called Cabaret.

Can you remember that?

-Yes, I do.

-What was it like?

How do you forget something like that?

I remember exactly because I was ready...

to quit acting.

I had... I was ready to give up.

I had tried and tried and tried to find a role that I could create,

and I thought it was over.

I was ready to stop.

Hal Prince called and said...

"I'm working on a musical and I think there's a part

"that you might be right for."

And, um, I think it's the first time I was ever offered a part

without an audition.

Wow.

And I went on over to Fred Ebb's and John Kander's house

and Hal was there and they played the score.

And I heard,

"Um-pa-pa, um-pa-pa um-pa-pa-pa, um-pam."

And I thought, "Oh, my God.

"That's going to be my song!"

# Willkommen, bienvenue, welcome

# Fremde, etranger, stranger... #

And how long did it take you to find the character?

'Well, I was struggling because it was very general.

'It was just sort of like a Master of Ceremonies.'

A German Master of Ceremonies, but nothing political,

nothing deeply dark and complex and horrifying.

That was not there.

And, um...

One day I said to Hal, I said,

"I have an idea I'd like to try."

And he said, "OK go ahead."

Everybody was watching and I did the opening number.

I am your host...

# Und sagen, Willkomen, bienvenue, welcome...#

'And I had in mind a comedian I had seen many, many years before,

'who I thought was the worst...'

crummiest, cheapest...

lousiest...

I mean...I mean, I...

I shuddered when I thought of him.

And I was in the audience and I was embarrassed.

Right? I never forgot it.

And I thought to myself, I'm going to try it, like,

do it like being that guy.

I did it and I felt very naked,

very concerned in that...

I thought that people would think that's who I was.

'Hal came back and he said, that's it.'

Wow, what a moment!

JOEL LAUGHS

He manages to keep the sense of theatre

whilst projecting it to a cinema audience.

He seems to have this awareness

that his every move and his every twitch

and his every, sort of, lifted eyebrow

will be seen by the audience,

in a much bigger way than would have been the case on the stage.

And now presenting the Cabaret girls!

Heidi!

I mean, you were trying to capture a very dark period.

'All I know is that...'

'..as a Jew...'

I knew that I had to make this character

black, dark, terrifying.

A cautionary tale.

It's Helga!

HE LAUGHS

When I arrived in Munich, where we shot the film...

..I had no idea, but I got off the airplane

and the minute my feet touched German ground,

I started to cry...

..and sob and grieve.

Because there was something about, you know, the loss

and the history that was so much a part of me

that I didn't even realise.

And so it was, I knew I needed to make this...

..specific.

The other huge role in Cabaret is that of Sally Bowles.

And when Hal Prince, the producer-director,

brought the show from Broadway,

he auditioned all the leading ladies of the London theatre.

I saw Vanessa Redgrave a few weeks ago here and we chatted,

and I wondered, "Did she remember that she'd ever auditioned for me?"

And suddenly she said to me,

"You know, I made a jackass out of myself, once, years ago."

I said, "You remember it?"

I said, "You didn't make a jackass out of yourself,

"you just didn't get the part."

And of course she sang for me. She sang a cappella.

She sang a political song that she'd written herself.

Of course she didn't get the part.

The role of Sally Bowles went instead to Judi Dench.

# Whatever you do... #

You see the stage play, and then you see the movie,

which I did not do...

As far as I'm concerned that's all about an English girl...

..who is not a great singer.

Absolutely.

And the whole verisimilitude of that character depends on her not...

Not being great.

..being a great singer.

# That's all right cos he comes in here every night... #

Judi was not a great singer, but a great performer.

And she has this gorgeous, gorgeous speaking instrument.

And so she sang.

And it was wonderful.

The point is when it became a movie Liza Minnelli...

Was brilliant, brilliant dancer, brilliant performer.

She's a performer. A professional performer.

# What good is sitting alone in your room? #

It's not Sally Bowles, at least, I didn't think so.

Not Christopher Isherwood's Sally Bowles.

No, not that one.

# ...cabaret, old chum

# Come to the Cabaret. #

Cabaret was daring and sexy

and it ushered in a new style of modern musical theatre.

By the end of the '60s this culminated in full frontal

nudity in Hair, the first and only hippy musical.

But the Brits weren't standing still.

Half a Sixpence and Stop the World, I Want To Get Off

had transferred successfully to New York.

And the best of the British bunch was "Oliver!".

The show's writer Lionel Bart gave us

a grand vision of Dickensian London with songs

and tunes that owed more to music hall than to Broadway.

# In this life, one thing counts

# In the bank, large amounts

# I'm afraid these don't grow on trees

# You've got to pick a pocket or two

# You've got to pick a pocket or two, boys

# You've got to pick a pocket or two. #

Fagin is perhaps the most wickedly attractive villain ever created.

Let's show everyone how to do it, my dears.

When "Oliver!" opened in 1960, Rex Harrison was in the audience.

He'd turned down the part and so had Sid James and Peter Sellers.

Instead, Fagin was played by Ron Moody,

first on stage and later on screen.

The critics loved him, describing him in turn as "slippery",

"benign, eye-rolling, lip-licking", "Exemplary,

"like Ivan the Terrible in a ginger wig."

# Why should we break our backs

# Stupidly paying tax

# Better get some untaxed income

# Better pick a pocket or two... #

His screen portrayal of Fagin earned Ron Moody a Golden Globe

and an Oscar nomination.

Following in his prancing footsteps is always going to be a tough call.

# Robin Hood, what a crook

# Gave away, what he took

# Charity's fine, subscribe to mine

# Get out and pick a pocket or two

# You've got to pick a pocket or two, boys

# You've got to pick a pocket or two. #

I'd always been aware of Ron Moody's performance, which was wonderful.

But I know I disappointed Lionel Bart who wanted something

else, that I wasn't prepared to give them and that was a turn.

And I wanted to play it as very character based

and based in the reality of the man, and his situation.

# You've got to pick a pocket or two. #

Except it's very difficult, I'm being very honest with you

now that I found it very difficult going from dialogue, which was

OK dialogue and good dialogue. OK, it wasn't My Fair Lady.

Going into in the middle of speaking going, "You see, Oliver, in this

"life, one thing counts." And I was never that comfortable doing that.

Cos I always had this little man on my shoulder going,

I can't believe you're doing this. I can't believe you're doing this.

What did you feel the audience reaction to your performance...

-They loved me, they loved me.

-So what was the problem?

-I don't know.

One afternoon after a matinee there was this one man at the stage

door. He was the last one there and he said, "Absolutely wonderful,

"Mr Pryce, absolutely wonderful, enjoyed it immensely."

And I'm going, "Oh, thanks, thanks very much."

And I'm signing and I'm smiling and he said, "Yes,

"you're extraordinary, just..." and as he turned what he said,

"You were just this much behind Ron Moody."

And I was still smiling, as he walked away and I went, "What.

"Oi, come here."

# You got to pick a pocket or two

Who says crime doesn't pay, eh?

# Robin Hood, what a crook

# Gave away... #

Fagin has been played by an incredible roster of actors

and performers.

They include Roy Hudd, Griff Rhys Jones, Rowan Atkinson,

Neil Morrissey, Barry Humphries, Robert Lindsay and Russ Abbot.

# You've got to pick a pocket or two. #

How long did it take you to find the character?

Not a great deal, it was interesting because fortunately,

Sam Mendes directed the first production I played and it was

interesting because when we came to Reviewing the Situation, Sam said to

me, "Now look this is where I think you can slightly break the

"fourth wall, because this Reviewing the Situation is Fagin's Cabaret

"moment."

So, after the penultimate verse, I stopped the music, sat

on the chest and I said, did a quick resume of the whole piece, like I said...

Oliver Twist come to London to seek his fortune,

I taught him everything I know. You got to pick a pocket or two.

But we'll be back soon.

SPEAKS INCOMPREHENSIBLY

Blah-blah-blah, blah-blah-blah and I slowed it down

and I said, "And that's what happened so far." And of course

huge round of applause and turned to the audience to say,

I'm Reviewing the Situation and then straight back into the last verse.

And Sam didn't mind...

-And Sam said, that's exactly what I meant.

-Very clever.

Apart from Fagin, I love the character of Nancy.

She was played in the film with enormous guts

and warmth by Shani Wallis.

# Small pleasures

# Small pleasures

# Who would deny us these... #

In the first UK tour of Oliver in the 1960s,

Nancy was played by Marti Webb.

I got a book by Richard Mayhew

and he'd gone around at the same time as Dickens and interviewed

people. Like thieves and thieves' women, which was Nancy, of course.

So that sort of gave me some idea what it was like

besides doing the show, because when you do a show,

it's not just the part you play, it's the part that you don't play.

Actually it's the unwritten script that gets you through it, gets you

through the scenes. Especially as Nancy you don't have a lot of lines.

You sing a lot, that's for sure, but you don't actually say a lot,

so there's a lot that goes on unsaid.

And you, you can't just, sing the pretty melody.

-Oh, no, no, no.

-You've got to act. It's almost like a script,

the songs are almost like a script, are they?

Yes, well, if you're lucky, you get a good director that also

helps you through that, and actually says it to you.

I remember the first time I was singing, Small Pleasures.

# Small pleasures, small pleasures,

# Who would deny us these? #

He said to me, "Why are you smiling?"

I really couldn't answer. It was like, I thought...

I don't really know really and I said, "Oh, I don't really know,

he said, "There's not a lot to smile about, is there?"

And he said, "Have you listened to the lyric?"

And I said, "Well, yes of course." And he said, "Well,

"not a lot to smile about."

And I suddenly thought, "no, you should really think about this."

It's true, you don't have to smile all the time

when you're singing a song. You know, just think about what you're

-actually singing, think about the lyric.

-And your predicament.

Yes, exactly, so you actually act it more.

And I think, because of that, that stayed

throughout my life, that has actually stayed with me.

I always think exactly what I'm saying, why I'm saying it,

and the situation that I'm saying it in.

The musical theatre has always created memorable

roles for women, from Annie Oakley to Eliza Doolittle,

to Nancy and Sally Bowles.

But in the 1970s, Tim Rice

and Andrew Lloyd Webber created the ultimate female role.

It was the most unlikely subject, the life and death of Eva Peron,

but at the time it became the most coveted role in the theatre.

Casting took many months.

I went to Kensington Market and bought myself an original

'40s blue and white frock...and some hooker kind of shoes and

every time I went for the audition, I always wore the same clothes.

So that, I thought to myself,

"Oh, it's a recognition value for them. Every time I come if

"I always wear the same thing they'll think 'Oh, yes it's her,' hopefully."

How many auditions did you have to do?

Eight, eight or more auditions. Back and back and back...

I think we knew very quickly, very quickly

and we were all crazy about her.

Hal Prince did say to me that that was indeed true. That every time

he saw me he said, "Oh, here comes that girl with those fuck me shoes on."

So it worked.

Overnight, Elaine Paige went from obscurity to media sensation.

Her musical apprenticeship was over.

Her reign as a star was about to begin.

She's got the best set of pipes in the business.

What's interesting is, I didn't know what a good actress she is.

I remember thinking, "This is going to be something special."

He's got a vision. For example, the big song

Don't Cry For Me Argentina and he said, "Really, you must remember

"that this is a very important political speech. It's a speech.

"Let's forget the music and I want you to think of it in those terms."

# Don't cry for me, Argentina

# The truth is I never left you

# All through my wild days... #

There was a sort of strength and feeling of power

standing 30 feet up on this huge, ah...

-You actually felt how she...

-Yes.

You began to realise what she must have felt.

Yes, it's a powerful moment

for any actor to play that moment.

# Don't cry for me, Argentina... #

It took nearly 20 years to bring Evita from stage to screen.

And for the role of Eva Peron the producers turned to the first

lady of pop, the most powerful woman in show business - Madonna.

# Don't keep your distance.

# Why are you at my side? #

At her side as Colonel Peron was Jonathan Pryce,

by now a veteran of the musical theatre.

Did you find acting with somebody who was not

kind of, of the theatre, Madonna, did that present problems?

Well, she was of her theatre, her world.

-Yes.

-It was...

I thought she was great in the role and she worked very

hard at...

..not being Madonna on film. But she knew what she was

doing, you know, the most brilliant lip-synching you've ever seen.

When Evita was revived for a second time on Broadway in 2012,

the producers cast a young Argentinean performer,

Elena Roger, as Eva.

Elena had already won an Olivier award in London playing Edith Piaf.

She is such an exciting talent.

Did you ever see Evita before you got to play it?

No, I never saw it. I never saw it and I watched the film

to know how was the... Because when I had to do the auditions

I start learning all the songs but I didn't know where were they.

You know, I had the songs, I didn't have the whole score so,

I had only the songs, so I watch the film to see how was the story.

God.

You can't just copy Madonna or Elaine Paige, it has to be you.

How do you set about that?

The script allows you to do those colours.

Allows you to go to the dictator to a very sensitive woman. You know,

there is a lot of colours you can find in that score and script.

What skills did you have to improve the most

when you first did the part?

I thought I was a good singer until I had to play Evita.

Wow.

That new ending of Buenos Aires, Star Quality.

That Andrew, he thought... I remember that day

we were in the audition and I was like

# Just a little touch of

LOW PITCHED: # Star Quality. #

And he said "Hmm, what if you do

HIGH PITCHED: # Star Quality."

And so he changed the tune there.

I have to go up instead of going down.

It was easier because I was dancing, but still a very high note.

Tell me what your favourite, from a performance point of view,

what your favourite moments are in the show?

-In the show...

-Yes, vocally or in the scenes.

I like a lot You Must Love Me, for example. I think it is a very

tiny, simple moment where...

..all the craziness

of the show stops and makes you realise what is life, what is death.

# Scared to confess what I'm feeling

# Frightened you'll slip away

# You must love me

# You must love me. #

Does it still move you? Some nights or every night?

-Every night.

-Every night?

-Every night.

# ...me. #

In 1979 I was in New York and I went to a preview of Stephen Sondheim's

new musical - Sweeney Todd, the Demon Barber of Fleet Street.

-It was bleak, terrifying and funny.

-The story of a barber who cuts

the throats of his customers while his partner bakes them into pies.

In my view Sondheim has created two of the greatest

roles in the musical theatre, the part of Sweeney Todd himself

and the pie-maker Mrs Lovett.

Here we are dear, hot out of the oven.

What is that?

# It's priest, have a little priest

# Is it really good?

# Sir, it's too good at least, then again... #

Sweeney Todd is set in London in the same period as Oliver Twist,

but the characters are a far cry from the lovable rogues of "Oliver!".

The show is as complex and as thrilling as any Shakespearean

tragedy and just as challenging for the actors.

Angela Lansbury's Mrs Lovett was sublime.

# ...deceased, try the priest. #

Heavenly!

Angela Lansbury's probably the biggest star I've ever worked with.

And that's because she's one of the most talented actresses I've ever

seen and worked with and one of the most energizing to collaborate with.

This one might be a bit uh,

stringy, but then of course, it's a fiddle player.

No, this isn't fiddle player. It's piccolo player.

How can you tell?

It's piping hot.

Then blow on it first.

She was chillingly comic when she spoke and when she sang.

I found her performance mesmerizing.

# Oh, Mr Todd, what does it tell?

# Is who gets eaten and who gets to eat! #

At the time that I saw this show,

I was the director of programmes at London Weekend Television.

I can remember rushing out of the theatre

and calling Melvyn Bragg and saying, "If Sweeney Todd comes to London

"we have to do a South Bank Show special."

Sure enough, Hal Prince and Stephen Sondheim brought this

extraordinary story of revenge and madness to the West End.

Our cameras were there to record the rehearsals

and the performance of its leading actors -

Denis Quilley as Sweeney Todd and Sheila Hancock as Mrs Lovett.

What is that?

# It's priest. Have a little priest.

# Is it really good?

# Sir, it's too good, at least.

# Then again they don't commit sins of the flesh.

# So it's pretty fresh. #

I thought these two really captured Mrs Lovett and Sweeney Todd.

Sheila Hancock with wonderful comic timing

and Denis Quilley with great physical menace.

# ...see a scrawny assed poet, you don't really know it... #

No, what's that line?

The show closed after just 157 performances with some

critics writing scathing reviews.

But it did win an Olivier for best musical.

Denis Quilley predicted that it would return one

day for a longer run.

Not as hearty as bishop perhaps!

How right he was.

In 2012 Sweeney Todd was revived to great acclaim, winning over

audiences and critics.

Michael Ball took on this most demanding of roles.

I always had this dream of doing Sweeney.

Imelda Staunton came onto my radio show

and I did something so unprofessional but

I couldn't not. She was there, as a record is playing I said,

"I have this idea." And in my head she'd always been the perfect...

Mrs Lovett.

..Mrs Lovett. And I asked her if I could get this to happen,

would she come and play it? And she said absolutely she would.

I learned the music.

I learned the words of all the songs because I knew how difficult

they would be. And I wanted them at the back of my head.

So that I didn't have to ever, ever think about,

"Oh, what's the next

"bit, what's the next bit?" Because I needed my muscles to be so relaxed

in one respect, so that I wasn't thinking of anything technical.

So that I could really, invest and investigate...

The emotion.

..the emotion and how to do her.

And I remember people say, "Oh, Mrs Lovett,

"Oh, you'll be great cause she's so funny."

And I used to think, I don't think she is that funny.

What were you looking for in the part?

I was looking for, always and this is Imelda as well

helping so much, is truth.

The real villain in Sweeney Todd is Mrs Lovett.

-Sweeney is damaged...

-He's a victim.

..and ruined.

She has to duck and dive, according to his mood.

And also I felt there was a fair amount of Lady Macbeth in there.

It was come on, we've gotta do this, what about doing that?

I know, we could make it happen, no problem. Leave it to me.

I can handle it.

I can't handle it. What am I going to do? And actually if

he knows that information it's not going to work. Keep that down.

So all her levels, I thought... She's got many,

many levels dressed up in this seemingly bit of a thick

sort of cockney sort of woman who, you know, is just a bit of a laugh.

-But behind...

-But behind it she has dead.

There's a deadness to her, at the back.

I have to say I think, emotionally, my favourite moment was

when we... When she sings, Because I Love You.

Because I always felt that is

her whole reason for the last two and a half hours...

Of carnage.

..of carnage because she genuinely loved him.

And that moment for me, to play was so satisfying

and desperate and heart wrenching. That was the best for me.

# Cos I love you

# I'd be twice the wife she was

# I love you

# What have I done

# Mrs Lovett, you're a bloody wonder... #

It's high drama and high opera.

It is indeed. It is indeed.

And for me there is no greater role,

I don't think, in musical theatre.

It's the Lear, you know, for a performer of my age.

I think it is.

It's one to go, done that.

# With their voices soft as thunder

# As they tear your hope apart. #

"A witless and synthetic entertainment,"

"a lurid Victorian melodrama."

These were just two of the awful reviews of this show

when it opened in 1985.

Yet it went on to become the longest running musical in history.

It is, of course, Les Miserables.

# That we will live the years together

# But there are dreams that cannot be... #

Based on Victor Hugo's epic novel set in post-revolutionary

Paris, Les Mis is my final musical great.

# I had a dream my life would be

# So different from this hell I'm living

# So different now from what it seemed

# Now life has killed the dream

# I dreamed. #

# A heart full of love... #

Michael Ball was in Manchester playing the Pirates of Penzance

when he was asked to audition for the part of Marius.

Had you any idea what you were letting yourself in for?

No, I didn't even read the book. I...

It's a gig, it's a job.

It's a gig.

I just thought, "We'll see, you know, what is this thing."

What was instantly apparent was that he had a tremendous,

in addition to the wonderful voice, he had a tremendous energy,

and sense of humour.

He was, he was ebullient

and just sort of created fun around him.

I do remember the opening day that the nerves of the first

day of rehearsal and Trevor is kind of renowned for his opening

-speech to a...

-A new cast.

..a new cast. And Trevor starts talking

with us all around there, and we're all absolutely enraptured.

By hour one and a half, we're kind of all going back a bit, yeah.

By hour three, coming up to lunch, we're all going, "Dear God in heaven."

And he finally said, "Right, nearly finished.

"We'll stop for lunch there and then all come back.

"Are there any questions?"

And all of us like that.

And this little boy goes, puts his hand up and Trevor goes, "yes."

And he went, "What did you say again?"

And that set the tone for the entire rehearsal process.

For all of us I think one of the most thrilling moments was the

first time we sang through

One Day More, the finale of Act One which

I think is probably the greatest end to an act there has ever been.

And all of us learning our different parts in different

places then coming together and singing it together.

And even now I get shivers.

# One day more

# I will join these people's heroes

# I will follow where they go

# I will learn their little secrets

# I will know the things they know

# One day more to revolution

# We will nip it in the bud... #

The whole thing of Trevor's ethos is it's an ensemble,

you know.

There is no prima donna-ship. It was... We owned it.

That's why we care so passionately about Les Mis,

because all of us in the original cast feel tremendous ownership.

# One day more. #

# I dreamed a dream in time gone by... #

Audiences care passionately about Les Mis.

More than 60 million people worldwide have seen it. It's still

running in the West End after more than 11,000 performances.

The movie version is another brilliant success.

I think it's the best musical film since Cabaret.

I was delighted that Anne Hathaway won an Oscar.

# ..From what it seemed... #

But the enduring appeal of Les Mis proves that the show doesn't

depend on any one star.

# ..I dreamed. #

It is certainly true that today's musicals

are no longer star vehicles.

The star of the show is the show.

Yet there's a marked absence of innovation on show today.

Where the musical theatre used to lead, it now follows.

Old, familiar pop songs and movies are re-worked for the stage.

Musical theatre is playing it safe.

I think one always has to be optimistic.

It's just a question of what next with the form.

You should strive to do something,

perhaps, that you've never quite seen before.

Would you do another musical, yes?

-Oh, God, yes. I don't want to do anything else.

-Really?

I mean it's amazing, it's such... It's so uplifting and it's

so demanding and challenging. It's great.

Many shows may be predictable today, but I remain an optimist.

Audiences have never been greater and the depth of talent available

today is awesome.

It can't be long before a new star comes along.

The future is bright, and for me, the future is musical.

# There's no business like show business

# Like no business I know

# Everything about it is appealing

# Everything that traffic will allow

# Nowhere could you get that happy feeling

# When you are stealing that extra bow

# There's no people like show people

# They smile when they are low... #