The Dreams of William Golding Arena


The Dreams of William Golding

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A CONCH IS BLOWN

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OMINOUS DRUMBEAT

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" 'I got this to say, you're acting like a crowd of kids.'

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"The booing rose and died again

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"as Piggy lifted the white, magic shell.

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" 'Which is better, to be a pack of painted savages like you are

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" 'or to be sensible like Ralph is?'

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"A great clamour arose among the savages. Piggy shouted again,

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" 'Which is better, to have rules and agree or to hunt and kill?' "

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Kill the pig! Slit her throat!

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Bash her in!

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"At last, the words of the chant floated up to them

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"across the bowl of blackened wood and ashes.

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" 'Kill the pig, cut her throat, spill her blood.' "

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Kill the pig!

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HE SCREAMS

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I find it very difficult to talk here now

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because I'm watching the sea all the time.

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The sea always makes me watch it all the time.

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I've spent hours and hours, not just on the sea

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but just watching wave after wave come in.

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If it's an image of anything,

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I think it's...

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an image of our unconscious,

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the unconscious of our own minds

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or you could say, I suppose you could put it the other way round

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and that is that we have a sea in us.

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After all, we are sea creatures

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that learnt to walk on the land, are we not?

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And perhaps one way and another, we go back to it.

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Every night when we dream,

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we go back into that kind of depth

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and that kind of beauty

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and monstrosity, and, um...

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mystery.

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So, really, the sea is not a single image,

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it can really image almost anything that the human mind can discover.

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He died in this house.

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He died, in fact, in what was then my brother's room, David's room.

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I'm afraid he had got rather drunk.

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And we think he'd got up in the middle of the night

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and sat on...

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a sofa, we know he was sitting on the sofa,

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and the sofa faces one of these great big windows

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that we have here

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and it faces east.

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And it was midsummer.

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It was the 19th of June 1993.

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And I think he must have seen the sun coming up

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behind the trees there.

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And ironically, although this is Cornwall

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where he was an old man...

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..the trees there are beech trees,

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as there were in Savernake Forest near Marlborough

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where he lived as a child.

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And so, in a curious way,

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in his death, I think you could see him

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as coming around full circle.

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"And then quite suddenly,

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"he knew he was not alone.

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"It was not that he saw or heard a presence.

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"He felt it, like the warmth of a fire at his back,

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"powerful and gentle at the same time.

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"And so immediate was the pressure of that personality

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"it might have been in his very spine.

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"He bent his head in terror,

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"hardly breathing.

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"He allowed the presence to do what it would.

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" 'I am here,' the presence seemed to say."

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" 'Do nothing, we are here.' "

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He was very strange, I think, in his relationship with reality.

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Very early on, he was taken out to Savernake Forest

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near Marlborough by his parents

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and they were playing around, he was little,

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and they pretended to hide behind a tree

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at the end of the walk, and he suddenly found himself alone

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and looked up,

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and glaring at him over the brushwood

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was a huge stag

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which he knew, he says,

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he knew wasn't a real stag,

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was something else, something other.

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Right to the end of his life,

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he believed in the other.

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William Golding emerged as a writer in the 1950s

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with a series of astonishingly original novels.

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Their subjects include a group of schoolboys

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stranded on a tropical island,

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the final days of Neanderthal man,

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a sailor marooned on a rock in the middle of the Atlantic,

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a talented artist consumed by his own ruthless ambition

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and the building of a spire on a mediaeval cathedral.

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But they are all expressions of a unique and powerful imagination.

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"Lok looked away over the river to forget his hunger.

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"He flared his nostrils

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"and immediately was rewarded with a whole mixture of smells

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"for the mist from the fall magnified any smell incredibly,

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as rain will deepen and distinguish the colours of a field of flowers.

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"There were the smells of the people too, individual,

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"but each engaged to the smell of the muddy path where they had been."

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Golding couldn't be alone at night, even with the light on.

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He says he was terrified, would have to rush upstairs

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and lie beside Ann and hear her breathing

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and know that it was all right.

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If he went into a room at night,

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he said he had to throw the door open very loudly

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so that anything that was inside

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would be warned and go away.

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"But before I could close the door,

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"the incorrigible schoolmaster in him had called me back.

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"I tell you something which may be of value.

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"I believe it to be true and powerful - therefore dangerous.

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"If you want something enough, you can always get it,

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"provided you are willing to make the appropriate sacrifice,

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"something, anything.

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"But what you get is never quite what you thought

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"and sooner or later, the sacrifice is always regretted."

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SCHOOL BELL RINGS

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Golding went on to win the Nobel Prize

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but when his first novel was published in 1954,

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he was already 43 years old

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and working as a teacher

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at Bishop Wordsworth's School in Salisbury.

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-Morning.

-Good morning, sir.

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Right, sit down, please.

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Now, how far have we got?

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-Act Two, Scene One, sir.

-Right, lend me a book, somebody.

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'He was a scruff and he was known as Scruff.'

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Right, come up and show us what you can do.

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'And in the Junior Six, I was a member of the Bishop's Players'

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and he produced a play

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and I was one of those who was one of his actors.

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By the time I had him,

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Lord of the Flies had just been published.

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I think earlier in his career in the school,

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he may have had some input and done something,

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but I think by the time he first published that,

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'I think he then had lost all interest in teaching.'

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My recollections are that

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he gave you an exercise book and told you to write

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and he did his own thing.

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Or he told you to read a chapter and he did his own thing.

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Now, our first focus today

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is on the work you've done on the island

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and I've looked at your maps.

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A quick reminder, somebody, when do the boys realise it's an island

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-though they've sussed it out? Nick?

-When they go to the top

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of the mountain, the three of them,

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-and they look around and it's, like, boat-shaped.

-Yep, boat-shaped.

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The coral was scribbled in the sea as though a giant had bent down

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to reproduce the shape of the island in a flowing chalk line

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but tired before he had finished.

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WILLIAM GOLDING: I've always been puzzled

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and I am still at this moment, I am in a state of confusion

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between the imaginative world and the real world.

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It is perfectly true to say that I have, sometimes in my life,

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found that the imaginative world

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had pushed the real world right out of the way,

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was literally more real.

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"The boy with fair hair

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"lowered himself down the last few feet of rock

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"and began to pick his way towards the lagoon.

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"And though he had taken off his school sweater

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"and trailed it now from one hand,

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"his grey shirt stuck to him

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"and his hair was plastered to his forehead.

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"He was clambering heavily among the creepers and broken trunks

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"when a bird, a vision of red and yellow,

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"flashed upwards with a witch-like cry.

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"The fair boy stopped,

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"and jerked his stockings with an automatic gesture

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"that made the jungle seem for a moment like the Home Counties."

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We were living in a council flat at the time

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in a converted Victorian house, my wife and I,

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and we'd just put the children to bed

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and pretty exhausting it had proved to be.

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And I'd been reading - well, we'd both been reading to them offhand,

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Cannibal Island, Treasure Island, Coral Island,

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anybody's island, Pirate Island, islands, islands,

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islands incorporated, really.

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And I said to her, "Wouldn't it be a good idea

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"to write a book about what actually would happen to children

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"if they found themselves alone on an island?"

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And my wife said, "That's a first-class idea, you write it."

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"The rock struck Piggy a glancing blow from chin to knee.

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"The conch exploded into a thousand white fragments and ceased to exist.

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"Piggy, saying nothing, with no time for even a grunt,

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"travelled through the air sideways from the rock,

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"turning over as he went.

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"The rock bounded twice and was lost in the forest.

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"Piggy fell 40 feet

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"and landed on his back across that square red rock in the sea.

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"His head opened and stuff came out and turned red.

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"Piggy's arms and legs twitched a bit,

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"like a pig's after it has been killed.

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"Then the sea breathed again in a long, slow sigh,

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"the water boiled white and pink over the rock,

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"and when it went, sucking back again, the body of Piggy was gone."

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Is this how it was when you were a boy?

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Much the same sort of houses?

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The houses were the same...

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Golding grew up in Marlborough,

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an old market town in the middle of rural Wiltshire.

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And you used to sleep in that room?

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When I was a very small boy, I slept in there.

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I was sent to bed early in the evenings,

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the way nice children were in those days. But the nasty children,

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the ruffian sort with shirts sticking out of their trousers and that,

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used to play around here on the green.

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Did you ever feel like escaping and joining the ruffians

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or did you know your place?

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I knew my place.

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I'm not really adventurous, socially.

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I knew I was one of us and they were one of them,

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and the terrible thing was

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that "us" didn't really extend any further than the house

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so really, we had no place.

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MUSIC: "SOUTH BANK SHOW" THEME

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It took a bit to persuade him to do it, and it was very difficult

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because I came to him at a time

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when he'd just been through a big depression, savage depression

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which I knew only a little about.

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I wasn't aware of its size when I met him.

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I went down to the house near Salisbury

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and he couldn't have been more charming

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and Ann, his wife, was wonderful.

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And we got colossally drunk,

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which seemed to be part of what he wanted to do. I didn't mind either.

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And then, those were the days,

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he drove me back to Salisbury, drunk as a skunk.

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'He's always been a rather strange writer, nothing to do

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'with the contemporary cliques and claques of English fiction,'

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almost a hermit scholar looking for meanings, telling his stories,

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'but full of sharp wit and social observation when he needed it.'

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I think he saw himself as a scholar.

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As you know, he'd been a school teacher, he had a real interest

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in ancient civilisations, particularly Greek and Roman.

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And the novels are rifted with scholarship.

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Golding and his older brother, Jose,

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were both pupils at the local grammar school,

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where their father, Alec, was one of the teachers.

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His father was a scientist - brilliant scientist, actually,

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though he never got beyond being the science master at Marlborough.

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And he was an atheist

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and indeed, brought Golding up rather strictly as an atheist.

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And on the other hand, there was the mother,

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who believed in all sorts of spooks and ghosts.

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Golding was very aware that his father was lower middle-class

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and he was aware of it particularly because in Marlborough,

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at one end of the street was Marlborough College,

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one of the great public schools of England.

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At the other end was Marlborough Grammar School

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where his father taught and Golding attended.

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And Golding resented it greatly.

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He says how he was filled with envy and hatred.

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He never got over it.

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It's one of the things his dreams are full of.

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"December the 13th, 1971.

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"This dream takes place for the most part

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"in the dining room of 29 The Green, Marlborough.

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"Jose is there, but he is not Jose.

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"For one thing, he is about a foot taller than me

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"and I believe him to be infinitely stronger.

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"He has got hold of a baby

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"and he is laughing at it, at me, at everything.

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"He also has a knife.

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"He pulls the baby out until its arms are stretched

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"and fixed in the attitude of crucifixion.

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"He begins to work on the hands and fingers,

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"dissecting them into patterns while the baby wails and cries.

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"I am terrified and revolted.

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"Either I can do nothing or I am too frightened to do anything."

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He had a great capacity for seeing wickedness in himself

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and, of course, drawing on that wickedness.

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I think he used the consciousness of what he might have done

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to write his books.

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And perhaps, in that way,

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he felt he was keeping this other person in its cage.

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In 1930, at the age of 19,

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Golding went up to Brasenose College, Oxford

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where he was the only grammar school boy in his year.

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He went along to the University Appointments Committee,

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you go to that in your last year

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and they tell you where your career may lie.

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And the notes of the chap interviewing him

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say that he is not top drawer, NTD,

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and not quite a gentleman,

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and would be all right for a day school but not a public school.

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So that was their estimate of him

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and he knew that that's how he was regarded

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by fellow students, not only by the dons.

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"She came down the stairs and stood

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"and there was nothing to do but look,

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"nothing needing to be said.

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"She took a scarf, her father's, I think, and we went out together.

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"We went to a blackened-out pub and sat hand in hand,

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"both stunned by this overwhelming sense of recognition.

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"We kissed then and there in public

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"without shame or bravado,

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"because although people stood within a yard of us,

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"we were alone.

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"And we both recognised, without a moment's doubt,

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"that we should never let each other go."

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He went to Maidstone for his first teaching job,

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Maidstone Grammar School.

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And there he met Ann, his wife.

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They met in a left book club meeting in London.

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He always says, you know,

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"Do tell me absolutely what you think about it."

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And I do.

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And then I get into fierce trouble for saying something critical.

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And he goes away and he mutters and he looks it over

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and finally he does, most often, agree.

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The Goldings were married in 1939

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and their son, David, was born the following year.

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I think he was a very good father in things

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because he didn't do the wrong things.

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I mean, he didn't bully you.

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Although he did think he had bullied me at a certain time

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when I was very young,

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that he tried to sort of make a man of me or something

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when I was a bit young to be made a man of, I thought.

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I mean, he took me sailing and taught me how to sail and so on.

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I shared his feeling that sailing was a very important thing.

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When he was a student at Oxford,

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David had a major mental breakdown

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from which he has never fully recovered.

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I think I've always had some sort of biochemical problem.

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When my mother was carrying me in her womb,

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she had German measles.

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That probably affected me.

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I mean, she did say later that...

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in these days, probably I would have had an abortion

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if that had happened,

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and I'm glad that she didn't.

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-So am I.

-Thank you! Thank you.

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Three months after David was born,

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Golding joined the Navy, and saw active service throughout the war.

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"I came up out of my cabin at about 0800

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"when Walcheren and Westkapelle light were in sight.

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"The rest of the assault was proceeding in,

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"about a mile on my starboard bow,

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"with the landing craft stretching astern.

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"The first shell made my heart beat quickly

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"and I tried to stop my teeth chattering,

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"because now I knew it wasn't going to be an easy assault.

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"The radar began to show up assault craft and Westkapelle

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"and finally I decided to cut loose and run in.

0:22:290:22:33

"Odd shells were dropping here and there.

0:22:330:22:35

"I was feeling unhappy but fairly fatalistic.

0:22:350:22:38

"I was worried about the obvious balls-up the rockets were making."

0:22:380:22:42

In 1944, Golding captained a rocket ship

0:22:450:22:49

during one of the bloodiest operations of the entire war,

0:22:490:22:51

the assault on the Dutch island of Walcheren.

0:22:510:22:55

The island was heavily defended

0:22:560:22:58

because it controlled access to the major port of Antwerp.

0:22:580:23:02

'This attack was one of the grimmest of the whole war.

0:23:060:23:08

'Heavy enemy shelling met the landing craft, and many were lost.

0:23:080:23:12

'Our Typhoons dived on the Hun

0:23:120:23:15

'and blasted him with rockets.

0:23:150:23:17

'Rocket-firing ships poured murderous fire in defenders' positions

0:23:170:23:20

'while our smoke ships laid a covering screen.'

0:23:200:23:24

When the bombardment began,

0:23:250:23:27

Golding realised that the other Allied ships had made a mistake

0:23:270:23:31

and their rockets were exploding amongst their own troops.

0:23:310:23:36

A couple of ships were sunk.

0:23:360:23:38

Also the coast wasn't bombarded, except by Dad,

0:23:390:23:42

who continued on in a sort of, rather Nelsonic way.

0:23:420:23:47

Dad managed to drop the rockets

0:23:500:23:54

just in advance of the marines.

0:23:540:23:57

They were the first people ashore.

0:23:570:24:00

It was rather tragic because

0:24:040:24:06

Dad had been informed that the Germans had evacuated the civilians

0:24:060:24:11

and, in fact, they hadn't evacuated the civilians.

0:24:110:24:13

So a lot of civilians got killed.

0:24:130:24:16

That must have haunted Dad, I think.

0:24:160:24:18

He never forgot that.

0:24:190:24:21

He never forgot the people who'd been killed

0:24:210:24:24

and he never forgot the fact that he'd actually killed civilians too,

0:24:240:24:29

killed the nice Dutch people, who hadn't done any harm to anyone.

0:24:290:24:33

At the going down of the sun,

0:24:360:24:39

and in the morning,

0:24:390:24:41

we will remember them.

0:24:410:24:43

-ALL:

-We will remember them.

0:24:430:24:46

You've said that the Second World War changed your attitude

0:24:540:24:58

towards human beings and towards human nature.

0:24:580:25:00

Can you tell us how it changed it?

0:25:000:25:03

It simply changed because, bit by bit,

0:25:030:25:05

we discovered what the Nazis had been doing.

0:25:050:25:09

Here was this highly civilised race of people

0:25:110:25:15

who were doing, one gradually found out,

0:25:150:25:17

impossible things. I remember, in those days, saying to myself,

0:25:170:25:21

"Yes, well, I have a Nazi inside me.

0:25:210:25:24

"Given the right circumstances, I could have been a Nazi."

0:25:240:25:28

But bit by bit, as I discovered more and more

0:25:280:25:32

what had gone on, that really changed my view

0:25:320:25:35

of what people were capable of

0:25:350:25:38

and therefore what human nature was.

0:25:380:25:41

So that political nostrums, if you like,

0:25:410:25:43

seemed to me just to fall flat on their face

0:25:430:25:46

in front of this capacity man had for a sort of absolute evil.

0:25:460:25:51

What did he say?

0:25:540:25:55

He says there's a beast,

0:25:550:25:57

comes out of the sea.

0:25:570:25:59

"Jack spoke loudly.

0:26:020:26:04

" 'This head is for the beast.

0:26:040:26:07

" 'It's a gift.'

0:26:070:26:10

"The silence accepted the gift and awed them.

0:26:100:26:13

"The head remained there, dim-eyed, grinning faintly,

0:26:130:26:17

"blood blackening between the teeth.

0:26:170:26:20

"All at once, they were running away, as fast as they could

0:26:200:26:24

"through the forest towards the open beach.

0:26:240:26:28

"Simon stayed where he was,

0:26:280:26:30

"a small, brown image, concealed by the leaves.

0:26:300:26:34

"Even if he shut his eyes,

0:26:340:26:35

"the sow's head still remained, like an after image.

0:26:350:26:39

"The half-shut eyes were dim with the infinite cynicism of adult life.

0:26:390:26:45

"They assured Simon that everything was a bad business."

0:26:450:26:47

The whole book is posing a question.

0:26:490:26:52

You think you've won a war.

0:26:540:26:57

What you've done is finished a war.

0:26:570:26:59

There was a crime committed in that war,

0:26:590:27:03

the like of which, perhaps, was never committed

0:27:030:27:06

in human history

0:27:060:27:09

and you've got to do something about it.

0:27:090:27:12

"Ralph looked at him dumbly.

0:27:140:27:16

"For a moment he had a fleeting picture of the strange glamour

0:27:160:27:20

"that had once invested the beaches.

0:27:200:27:22

"But the island was scorched up like dead wood.

0:27:220:27:27

"Simon was dead and Jack had...

0:27:270:27:29

"The tears had begun to flow and sobs shook him.

0:27:290:27:32

"He gave himself up to them now for the first time on the island,

0:27:320:27:36

"great shuddering spasms of grief that seemed to wrench his whole body.

0:27:360:27:40

"His voice rose unto the black smoke before the burning wreckage of the island."

0:27:400:27:44

"And infected by that emotion,

0:27:440:27:47

"the other little boys began to shake and sob too.

0:27:470:27:50

"And in the middle of them with filthy body, matted hair

0:27:500:27:54

"and unwiped nose,

0:27:540:27:56

"Ralph wept for the end of innocence,

0:27:560:27:59

"the darkness of man's heart and the fall through the air

0:27:590:28:03

"of the true, wise friend called Piggy."

0:28:030:28:06

It's really hard to read that without crying.

0:28:130:28:16

It's an incredible piece of prose, because...

0:28:160:28:20

"unwiped nose"... it's a child, suddenly,

0:28:200:28:24

and yet he'd been a man a moment before.

0:28:240:28:26

There's no sentimentality, but the "true, wise friend"... it's really...

0:28:260:28:31

It's almost the first time he's realised

0:28:310:28:33

what a value Piggy was to him.

0:28:330:28:36

And he doesn't get gushes of emotions,

0:28:360:28:38

he gets two adjectives - true, wise friend.

0:28:380:28:40

'I think it's absolutely crucial to Lord of the Flies

0:28:440:28:47

'that it couldn't have been written by someone who wasn't a schoolmaster,

0:28:470:28:50

'because he knew boys.

0:28:500:28:52

'He saw how boys behaved day in and day out.'

0:28:520:28:55

OK, I want to start with the conch

0:28:550:28:58

because that's almost the first thing that's picked up, so Tom and Elliot...

0:28:580:29:02

Piggy's death and the conch's...

0:29:020:29:05

being smashed is the same time.

0:29:050:29:08

This kind of represents...

0:29:080:29:10

..the end of civilisation.

0:29:100:29:11

Excellent. Let Tom finish on that one,

0:29:110:29:13

that's a really good canter there, excellent.

0:29:130:29:16

When this happens it shows the complete end of civilisation and laws and order

0:29:160:29:20

because Piggy, towards the end of the book,

0:29:200:29:22

was the only one keeping law and order.

0:29:220:29:25

So when he dies and when the conch is shattered

0:29:250:29:27

which throughout the book, was representing it,

0:29:270:29:30

it shows that they've all sort of turned into savage

0:29:300:29:33

-and don't really represent anything anymore.

-Yeah.

0:29:330:29:36

It's interesting the way it changes

0:29:360:29:38

from being a means of signalling and calling to something completely different

0:29:380:29:42

in their assemblies,

0:29:420:29:44

-almost like a mace or something ceremonial, doesn't it?

-Yeah.

0:29:440:29:47

When he came out of the Navy,

0:29:500:29:53

Golding returned to teaching at Bishop Wordsworth's School.

0:29:530:29:57

But he wrote whenever he could, even in lessons,

0:29:570:30:00

and much of Lord Of The Flies was written in school time

0:30:000:30:04

in a standard-issue exercise book.

0:30:040:30:06

So this is the manuscript of Lord Of The Flies.

0:30:140:30:18

He used these exercise books for a lot of his early work.

0:30:180:30:22

He, I think, abstracted them from the school store.

0:30:220:30:25

He wrote, as you'll see, tiny writing,

0:30:250:30:31

which flows over the ruled lines of the exercise book.

0:30:310:30:37

And he added in notes, as you'll see, in red biro,

0:30:370:30:42

"schoolmaster's biro", he used to call it,

0:30:420:30:46

as if he was marking schoolboys' essays.

0:30:460:30:50

In 1953, Golding sent his novel to nine publishers,

0:30:520:30:56

all of whom rejected it.

0:30:560:30:59

Undaunted, he offered the manuscript to Faber and Faber,

0:30:590:31:04

one of the most prestigious London firms,

0:31:040:31:06

whose directors included the poet TS Eliot.

0:31:060:31:10

Crawley, I think you didn't like it.

0:31:100:31:13

I'm not really opposed to publication,

0:31:130:31:15

just doubtful of its reception by the English-speaking people.

0:31:150:31:19

I was a very, very junior editor,

0:31:190:31:22

I'd have only been in Fabers for a matter of a few months at this time,

0:31:220:31:25

but already there was one particular sort of thing I could spot,

0:31:250:31:29

and that was a tired, weather-beaten old manuscript,

0:31:290:31:32

that had been around to a lot of publishers before it reached us.

0:31:320:31:36

And this was very much that.

0:31:360:31:39

It was a large, yellowing manuscript,

0:31:390:31:42

bound in rather depressing hairy brown cardboard.

0:31:420:31:46

And there was a short, formal covering letter.

0:31:460:31:48

Miss Parkinson had written her little note on that already.

0:31:480:31:52

This is the comment made by the professional reader

0:31:520:31:56

that Fabers employed.

0:31:560:31:58

And she says, "Time - the future,

0:31:580:32:00

"absurd and uninteresting fantasy

0:32:000:32:04

"about the explosion of an atom bomb on the Colonies.

0:32:040:32:07

"A group of children who land in jungle country near New Guinea.

0:32:070:32:13

"Rubbish and dull. Pointless."

0:32:130:32:16

And then she puts an R for "Reject" in a circle.

0:32:160:32:20

Charles Monteith decided to take the manuscript home

0:32:240:32:28

and was captivated by Golding's story.

0:32:280:32:30

He persuaded Faber and Faber to publish the book

0:32:310:32:35

on condition that Golding made some significant changes to the text.

0:32:350:32:39

This first version is drastically different

0:32:400:32:44

from the Lord of the Flies most people have read.

0:32:440:32:47

This is a religious novel.

0:32:470:32:49

He says he underwent a religious convulsion

0:32:490:32:53

and he came out of the war deeply religious.

0:32:530:32:57

When Charles Monteith of Fabers

0:32:570:33:00

rescued this novel from the slush pile,

0:33:000:33:03

he thought, "All this must go. All the supernatural stuff must go."

0:33:030:33:06

And Golding concedes, concedes, concedes,

0:33:060:33:09

until what came out is a novel that is secular,

0:33:090:33:14

it's not assuming any supernatural intervention.

0:33:140:33:17

CHOIR SINGS

0:33:200:33:23

There was Golding, that was me, so we were at either end of the...

0:33:260:33:30

I was the school organist.

0:33:300:33:32

So, you know, I used to play

0:33:320:33:34

every day and he used to come every day.

0:33:340:33:37

He was a very loyal member of the choir.

0:33:370:33:39

I used to go and practise the organ up at St Martin's, just up the road.

0:33:410:33:46

I used to go up to that church

0:33:460:33:48

and I would suddenly find that Golding was there,

0:33:480:33:52

on his knees, praying, alone.

0:33:520:33:56

And that wasn't just one occasion, many occasions.

0:33:560:33:59

That made a great impression on me.

0:33:590:34:02

I recognised that there was a man for whom religion was really important.

0:34:020:34:06

When I was growing up, he was definitely Christian.

0:34:080:34:12

We went to church, he took me to the cathedral,

0:34:120:34:15

told me not to swing my legs and behave properly.

0:34:150:34:19

But there was also the sense that they were places of mystery,

0:34:190:34:24

and not always completely safe places.

0:34:240:34:26

I think he gave me the idea that a church was full of...

0:34:260:34:30

dark thoughts, as well as spiritual thoughts.

0:34:300:34:34

Golding's Christianity was a very odd thing.

0:34:340:34:37

I mean he was never an orthodox Christian, that's for sure.

0:34:370:34:40

There were various bits of Christianity he hated.

0:34:400:34:44

A friend said to him once, "Have you ever taken the sacrament?"

0:34:440:34:47

He said, "I'd be sick."

0:34:470:34:49

He said that the crucifixion should never be depicted.

0:34:490:34:52

"It's a horror to be veiled", he said.

0:34:520:34:56

SCHOOL BELL RINGS

0:34:560:34:59

Although Lord Of The Flies received good reviews

0:34:590:35:03

and Golding was recognised as a striking new talent,

0:35:030:35:07

he couldn't afford to give up teaching

0:35:070:35:10

and had to continue with an exhausting daily routine.

0:35:100:35:13

He came in with proofs, typewritten pages,

0:35:130:35:19

and he'd hand them out to you.

0:35:190:35:21

And he said, "I don't want you to read these,

0:35:210:35:24

"I just want you to count the words."

0:35:240:35:26

And then you had to put in pencil how many words

0:35:260:35:29

were on the page and hand them over to somebody else.

0:35:290:35:31

And then you got another one so you could check.

0:35:310:35:34

And it was certainly The Inheritors, the one that I was looking at,

0:35:340:35:38

because it was all about cavemen.

0:35:380:35:41

"He looked at the water,

0:35:500:35:52

"then at each of the people in turn,

0:35:520:35:55

"and they waited.

0:35:550:35:56

" 'I have a picture' ".

0:35:580:36:00

"He freed a hand and put it flat on his head as if confining the images

0:36:000:36:04

"that flickered there.

0:36:040:36:07

" 'Mal is not old

0:36:070:36:10

" 'but clinging to his mother's back.

0:36:100:36:12

" 'There is more water,

0:36:130:36:15

" 'not only here, but along the trail where we came.

0:36:150:36:17

" 'A man is wise.

0:36:170:36:20

" 'He makes me take a tree that has fallen and...' "

0:36:200:36:24

"his eyes, deep in their hollows, turn to the people

0:36:240:36:28

"imploring them to share a picture with him.

0:36:280:36:32

"At last, Ha spoke.

0:36:320:36:35

" 'I do not see this picture.' "

0:36:350:36:37

I read the first page and I remember saying to myself,

0:36:410:36:43

"Oh, my God, first it was schoolboys, now it's bloody cavemen!"

0:36:430:36:48

Of course The Inheritors, I think, is his best book.

0:36:480:36:50

And I think he thought so, too.

0:36:500:36:52

Together with his love of classical literature,

0:36:550:36:57

Golding had a deep interest in archaeology

0:36:570:37:00

and often visited the digs that were taking place

0:37:000:37:03

in his part of Wiltshire,

0:37:030:37:06

which is littered with prehistoric sites.

0:37:060:37:09

His second novel, The Inheritors,

0:37:100:37:13

focuses on a small band of Neanderthals

0:37:130:37:16

who encounter an unknown new species, Homo sapiens,

0:37:160:37:19

and are gradually exterminated.

0:37:190:37:22

He tries to enter the mind,

0:37:240:37:28

if you can use that word, of a pre-mind creature.

0:37:280:37:32

And he didn't follow what most people

0:37:320:37:35

thought about Neanderthals at that time at all.

0:37:350:37:38

Most people thought Neanderthals hadn't got language

0:37:380:37:40

and most people still think that.

0:37:400:37:43

He thought they had a kind of language.

0:37:430:37:45

He gave his Neanderthals the ability to see pictures

0:37:450:37:50

in each other's minds and in their own minds.

0:37:500:37:52

"I cannot see that picture,"

0:37:520:37:54

they say to each other if they don't understand.

0:37:540:37:57

These Neanderthals are wonderfully sensitive to the external world.

0:37:570:38:02

They sort of think in metaphors if they think at all,

0:38:020:38:05

and he's got to put that it into language which, of course, is impossible, really.

0:38:050:38:09

So he invents, he makes a new language,

0:38:090:38:12

goes inside a mode of apprehension

0:38:120:38:15

of the world which is quite unlike anything we have.

0:38:150:38:18

"They were as different from the group of bold hunters

0:38:220:38:26

"and magicians who had sailed up the river towards the fall,

0:38:260:38:30

"as a soaked feather is from a dry one.

0:38:300:38:34

"Restlessly, he turned the ivory in his hands.

0:38:340:38:38

"What was the use of sharpening it against a man?

0:38:380:38:42

"Who would sharpen a point against the darkness of the world?"

0:38:420:38:47

The questions he was...puzzled by, I think,

0:38:510:38:55

were questions to do with the fragility of goodness,

0:38:550:38:58

why is it fragile, why does it suddenly break down?

0:38:580:39:02

He worked out these questions in the form of modern myths,

0:39:030:39:07

in other words, stories full of images

0:39:070:39:11

which contain a great deal of meaning which is latent,

0:39:110:39:15

rather than expressed in any simple propositions or arguments.

0:39:150:39:20

They're like the myths of religion but different from them.

0:39:200:39:25

So, for example, the myth that is embodied in The Inheritors

0:39:250:39:29

is set in the context not of a biblical story or religious story

0:39:290:39:33

but in the context of an evolutionary biological

0:39:330:39:38

understanding of the prehistory of the human animal.

0:39:380:39:41

I think the tragic aspect of Golding's myth

0:39:420:39:48

is that the Neanderthals, in some sense,

0:39:480:39:51

intuited their fate

0:39:510:39:54

and knew that it couldn't be avoided.

0:39:540:39:57

I think it is a very sympathetic account

0:40:000:40:03

of how it would have felt to be a Neanderthal at this particular point,

0:40:030:40:07

that is, as we now know almost at the end of their existence,

0:40:070:40:13

possibly the last group which died out

0:40:130:40:17

in the face of these incoming alien modern humans.

0:40:170:40:22

So that's what makes it so poignant.

0:40:220:40:25

In the 1950s,

0:40:390:40:41

Golding bought a series of sailing boats

0:40:410:40:44

in which the family would spend their holidays,

0:40:440:40:47

sailing along the south coast and across the Channel to France.

0:40:470:40:50

Well, the first boat was Seahorse, which was a lifeboat.

0:40:550:41:00

Well, the first year we sailed off in that.

0:41:000:41:04

After he'd converted her,

0:41:050:41:07

put a deck and a cabin on, and we felt that was a luxury.

0:41:070:41:12

It wasn't even like camping,

0:41:130:41:15

it was just much worse because you couldn't get out and walk.

0:41:150:41:18

It was the most extraordinary adventure to take up.

0:41:190:41:23

'Another shipping forecast

0:41:240:41:26

'issued by the Met Office at 2343 on Saturday 18th.

0:41:260:41:32

'Rockall, westerly veering north westerly,

0:41:320:41:34

'seven to severe gale nine, decreasing, five. Showers...'

0:41:340:41:39

"He eyed the peculiar shapes that lay across the trousers

0:41:390:41:43

"indifferently for a while until at last it occurred to him

0:41:430:41:48

"how strange it was that lobsters should sit there.

0:41:480:41:52

"Then he was suddenly seized with a terrible loathing for lobsters

0:41:520:41:56

"and flung them away so that they cracked on the rock.

0:41:560:41:59

"The dull pain of the blow extended him into them again

0:41:590:42:04

"and they became his hands,

0:42:040:42:06

"lying, discarded, where he had tossed them.

0:42:060:42:10

Pincher Martin is one of Golding's strangest books

0:42:130:42:18

because, of course, except through memory it only has one protagonist

0:42:180:42:23

who's even more radically isolated than the schoolboys on the island.

0:42:230:42:28

Pincher Martin, Golding's experimental third novel,

0:42:310:42:35

is about a sailor who is stranded on a rock in the Atlantic

0:42:350:42:39

after his ship has been sunk by an enemy submarine.

0:42:390:42:43

The self-absorbed central character appears to look back

0:42:430:42:46

over his previous life and the book is both a moral investigation

0:42:460:42:52

and an hallucinogenic account of physical isolation.

0:42:520:42:55

Golding is struggling with how human beings represent their lives

0:42:580:43:02

to themselves and how it's very difficult to tell the difference

0:43:020:43:07

between a dream of a life

0:43:070:43:09

and the actual life that has been lived.

0:43:090:43:11

Is it actually a work of the imagination?

0:43:140:43:16

And that there's actually nothing else but,

0:43:160:43:18

if there are meanings in human life,

0:43:180:43:20

it's simply a successful exercise in the imagination?

0:43:200:43:23

In Pincher Martin, the rock is more than a rock in the sea

0:43:260:43:30

or a struggle for a man's survival on this rock,

0:43:300:43:33

it has other implications.

0:43:330:43:35

Pincher Martin isn't about a man

0:43:350:43:37

who tries to survive by climbing on a rock.

0:43:370:43:39

It is, in fact, about a man who dies on page two.

0:43:390:43:42

I made him die very deliberately on page two,

0:43:420:43:45

and the rest of the book,

0:43:450:43:47

right up to the last chapter, is in fact about the man in purgatory.

0:43:470:43:50

Because he is a very wicked man

0:43:530:43:56

who has no kind of religious experience at all,

0:43:560:43:59

he can't see the compassion of God.

0:43:590:44:04

And all the time he's hanging on, he is greed, sheer wickedness,

0:44:040:44:08

unless finally he is nothing but claws clutched into each other.

0:44:080:44:11

And that is still there resisting this black lightning

0:44:110:44:15

which is the compassion of God trying to open them up

0:44:150:44:17

and really trying to take them away,

0:44:170:44:20

trying to take all the pincher structure away.

0:44:200:44:23

Here are some recurrent nightmares.

0:44:300:44:35

On 27th January, his second dream is "I am going to be hanged,"

0:44:370:44:43

and then his third dream, again, "I am going to be hanged."

0:44:430:44:47

Dream number two, "I am going to be hanged.

0:44:490:44:51

"In the event, I help myself to die by slumping to my knees

0:44:510:44:56

"and experience an immediate

0:44:560:44:59

"and satisfactory state of nothingness."

0:44:590:45:02

"Dream ego," that's his word for having a dream.

0:45:040:45:07

"Dream ego has his recurrent nightmare, he is to be hanged

0:45:070:45:12

"and, as usual, is under no sort of restraint whatsoever."

0:45:120:45:15

There is one particular dream where his father is the executioner.

0:45:170:45:20

And there's another dream where his father has come across the world to see him hanged.

0:45:200:45:25

"Comment, my recurrent dream

0:45:260:45:28

"may be the result of drinking too much.

0:45:280:45:31

"Guilt, in a word."

0:45:310:45:32

Well, he would get drunk and he wouldn't get jollily drunk,

0:45:350:45:39

he'd get rather, sort of, morosely drunk.

0:45:390:45:42

After a while, he would drink it as if he disliked it,

0:45:420:45:45

as if it was evil tasting medicine.

0:45:450:45:48

And I even caught him once pouring bottles of wine down the sink

0:45:480:45:53

in an attempt to get rid of this sort of loathsome substance.

0:45:530:45:57

I mean, he had enormous resources of self loathing anyway.

0:45:570:46:01

Sometimes, it would just go over the edge

0:46:010:46:05

and it would be horrible.

0:46:050:46:08

"In a flash of vision,

0:46:190:46:22

"he saw how other feet would cut their track

0:46:220:46:24

"arrow-straight towards the city,

0:46:240:46:26

"understood how the tower was laying a hand on the whole landscape,

0:46:260:46:30

"altering it, dominating it, enforcing a pattern that reached

0:46:300:46:34

"wherever the tower could be seen by sheer force of its being there.

0:46:340:46:39

"He swung round the horizon and saw how true his vision was.

0:46:410:46:45

"There were new tracks, people in parties

0:46:450:46:47

"making their way sturdily between bushes and through heather.

0:46:470:46:52

"The countryside was shrugging itself obediently into a new shape.

0:46:520:46:57

"Presently, with this great finger sticking up,

0:46:570:47:00

"the city would lie like the hub at the centre of a predestined wheel.

0:47:000:47:04

"New Street, New Inn, New Wharf, New Bridge,

0:47:040:47:10

"and now new roads to bring in new people."

0:47:100:47:14

The Spire, Golding's fifth novel,

0:47:190:47:22

is about a medieval Dean called Jocelyn who has a vision

0:47:220:47:26

which compels him to build a huge steeple on top of his cathedral.

0:47:260:47:31

The physical impossibility of the project doesn't deter him

0:47:310:47:35

and he sacrifices everything to achieve his dream.

0:47:350:47:39

The Spire...

0:47:430:47:45

is a novel about the building of Salisbury Cathedral spire

0:47:450:47:49

and that was a thing he looked at every day from his classroom window.

0:47:490:47:53

When I was teaching and had it in the window

0:47:550:47:57

over those bowed heads, I was always puzzled by it.

0:47:570:48:01

It's obviously possible because there it is,

0:48:010:48:04

but given what technical means were possible at the time,

0:48:040:48:09

that's in the 13th century,

0:48:090:48:12

it seemed to be nearly impossible, anyway,

0:48:120:48:15

and I would... I wanted to find out

0:48:150:48:18

what kind of people would do it.

0:48:180:48:22

When you turned your mind to finding out, you didn't read old records

0:48:260:48:30

or look up the actual people who had done it,

0:48:300:48:32

-you went about it your own way?

-You can't find it out

0:48:320:48:35

because there's no manuals on how to build a gothic cathedral.

0:48:350:48:38

I said to myself, "What would these people have?"

0:48:380:48:41

And the answer is, of course, they'd have blocks and tackles.

0:48:410:48:44

Well, I knew about seamen ship.

0:48:440:48:47

So I said to myself, "How would sailors set about

0:48:470:48:50

"putting this thing up?" And I got at it from that point of view.

0:48:500:48:55

So, as far as I know,

0:48:550:48:57

the whole thing is an invention from beginning to end

0:48:570:49:00

but it seems to work and people believe it.

0:49:000:49:03

"The whole building revealed itself to me.

0:49:060:49:11

"The whole building spoke.

0:49:110:49:13

" 'We are labour,' said the walls.

0:49:130:49:16

"The ogival windows clasped their hands and sang,

0:49:160:49:19

" 'We are prayer.'

0:49:190:49:21

"And the trinity over the triangular roof...

0:49:220:49:26

"But how shall I say it?

0:49:260:49:28

"I had tried to give away my house

0:49:280:49:31

"and it had returned to me a thousand fold."

0:49:310:49:35

He presents in The Spire

0:49:390:49:40

this character called Dean Jocelyn

0:49:400:49:43

who builds the spire - he is responsible for planning it, getting the money.

0:49:430:49:46

And what is Jocelyn motivated by

0:49:460:49:49

is the great question of the novel. Is he motivated by egotism? Yes.

0:49:490:49:55

A kind of sublimated sexuality? Yes.

0:49:560:50:00

Or worship?

0:50:000:50:04

Yes, as well.

0:50:040:50:05

So, he's questioning, through Jocelyn, himself, I think.

0:50:060:50:10

And I think that's when it comes, at this quite crucial time

0:50:100:50:14

in his life when he is just about to start being a full-time writer.

0:50:140:50:19

I wanted to conceive the kind of man who would say "This must be done."

0:50:220:50:30

And would not know at the beginning

0:50:310:50:34

that even if God had told him to do this,

0:50:340:50:37

nevertheless the cost was going to be his life

0:50:370:50:41

and probably other people's lives, too.

0:50:410:50:43

I still think it's a good image almost of any human endeavour,

0:50:430:50:50

that it can never be wholly good, it must always have a cost in people.

0:50:500:50:53

Jocelyn was a fanatic, was he not?

0:50:580:51:01

We are in the presence of religious fanaticism.

0:51:010:51:04

We see what it can do.

0:51:060:51:08

Its cost in suffering and death and sorrow is...is immeasurable.

0:51:090:51:15

"I thought it would be simple.

0:51:180:51:20

"I thought the spire would complete a stone bible,

0:51:210:51:24

"it would be the apocalypse in stone.

0:51:240:51:27

"I never guessed in my folly

0:51:270:51:29

"that there would be a new lesson at every level and a new power.

0:51:290:51:32

"Nor could I have been told. I had to build in faith against advice,

0:51:320:51:36

"that's the only way, that when you build like this,

0:51:360:51:40

"men blunt like a poor chisel or fly off like the head of an axe.

0:51:400:51:45

"I was too taken up with my vision to consider this.

0:51:460:51:50

"And the vision was enough."

0:51:500:51:52

He just has captured what happens

0:51:580:52:01

when a vision gets so mixed up with self-aggrandisement,

0:52:010:52:06

when somebody so lacks self-awareness,

0:52:060:52:09

that actually they and their project become one.

0:52:090:52:14

And so what we have is a perfect description,

0:52:140:52:19

not just of Deans, but of any human venture,

0:52:190:52:22

where a leader loses track of their own humility.

0:52:220:52:26

We should distrust the voice that tells us that we are right

0:52:280:52:34

and everybody else is wrong.

0:52:340:52:36

'I have always been a great admirer of Golding's talent

0:52:430:52:46

'but this is a very, very, very bad book.'

0:52:460:52:49

'I happen to agree, only more.

0:52:490:52:52

'I heard the word gothic mentioned a couple of times

0:52:520:52:55

but this is all mock gothic.'

0:52:550:52:57

The Spire came out, I think, in April

0:52:570:52:59

and quite soon afterwards, there was a radio review of it.

0:52:590:53:05

And one of the people on the panel

0:53:050:53:07

had really taken against the book.

0:53:070:53:11

'The writer sometimes seems to be using the dark ages

0:53:110:53:14

'as an excuse for extravagance.'

0:53:140:53:16

'I was much more revolted by the book's excesses.

0:53:160:53:19

'I believe an American reviewer has already said of this book,

0:53:190:53:23

'that it touches the "Wuthering" depths...'

0:53:230:53:25

HE LAUGHS

0:53:250:53:27

We were all sitting around in the sitting room

0:53:270:53:29

in our cottage in Wiltshire,

0:53:290:53:31

and my father, I'd never seen him so emotional.

0:53:310:53:36

He turned absolutely white and crashed out of the room.

0:53:360:53:39

'I think it is a bad book because I find its symbolism crude.

0:53:400:53:44

'I find the sexual undertone of spire building very, very badly managed.

0:53:440:53:48

'Very pervasive, very disagreeable.'

0:53:480:53:50

And my mother started swearing

0:53:520:53:55

and I have never heard her swear like that.

0:53:550:53:58

But I think it frightened my father.

0:53:580:54:01

I think it had an effect

0:54:010:54:03

on his ability to be confident in his imagination,

0:54:030:54:07

and perhaps even to be confident in my mother's judgement.

0:54:070:54:14

So...this shook him,

0:54:140:54:16

this really shook him.

0:54:160:54:18

"He opened his eyes quickly and there was the head,

0:54:300:54:34

"grinning amusedly in the strange daylight, ignoring the flies,

0:54:340:54:37

"the spilled guts,

0:54:370:54:40

"even ignoring the indignity

0:54:400:54:42

"of being spiked on a stick."

0:54:420:54:43

"He looked away, licking his dry lips.

0:54:450:54:48

"A gift for the beast,

0:54:480:54:50

"might not the beast come for it?

0:54:500:54:52

"The head, he thought, appeared to agree with him.

0:54:520:54:55

" 'Run away,' said the head silently, 'Go back to the others.' "

0:54:550:55:00

Although Lord of the Flies had been a critical success

0:55:040:55:08

it wasn't until the publication of the American edition,

0:55:080:55:11

and particularly the paperback in 1959,

0:55:110:55:14

that Golding became an international bestseller

0:55:140:55:18

and started to earn large amounts in royalties.

0:55:180:55:20

Lord of the Flies has since sold more than 40 million copies.

0:55:220:55:27

Well, I grew up a in a little town called Durham, Maine,

0:55:310:55:33

and at that time, the State of Maine had a bookmobile service,

0:55:330:55:38

it was a mobile library.

0:55:380:55:40

And one day I said to the lady who drove the bookmobile,

0:55:400:55:46

"Do you have anything about kids the way that kids really are?"

0:55:460:55:51

And she thought a little bit about it and she said,

0:55:510:55:53

"Well, there's one book

0:55:530:55:55

"and it's called Lord of the Flies,

0:55:550:55:57

"but if anyone asks you where you got it,

0:55:570:56:00

"say you found it on your own because I might lose my job.

0:56:000:56:04

"That's an adult book."

0:56:040:56:06

And I thought, "Hmm, an adult book about kids."

0:56:060:56:09

And I was completely riveted by the story from the very beginning

0:56:090:56:14

because it was like a boy's story, the ones that I was accustomed to.

0:56:140:56:19

The difference was the boys were real boys.

0:56:190:56:23

They acted the way that I understood boys acted.

0:56:230:56:26

You guys are assholes!

0:56:280:56:30

"At last, the words of the chant floated up to them

0:56:310:56:34

"across the bowl of blackened wood and ashes,

0:56:340:56:38

" 'Kill the pig, cut her throat, spill her blood.' "

0:56:380:56:41

You have to put things in context, too,

0:56:420:56:46

of the time when I read those lines.

0:56:460:56:48

It would have been 1960,

0:56:490:56:51

around the time that Kennedy became President

0:56:510:56:55

and the civil rights unrest was beginning in the south.

0:56:550:57:00

And we saw on the nightly news

0:57:000:57:03

police turning dogs on people

0:57:030:57:06

who just wanted to ride the bus.

0:57:060:57:08

MUSIC: "Scarborough Fair" by Simon & Garfunkel

0:57:080:57:11

The Vietnam War made the book seem even more relevant.

0:57:150:57:20

It acquired a cult status amongst young people in America

0:57:200:57:24

and Golding became a '60s phenomenon.

0:57:240:57:26

We knew that there was bad stuff there.

0:57:310:57:34

And I think that, past a certain age, most kids do.

0:57:340:57:37

And you look for somebody to explain it to you.

0:57:370:57:40

And that's one of the things that the Golding book did.

0:57:400:57:44

It explained it to me. It didn't preach, I didn't need that,

0:57:440:57:47

but stories, stories that illuminated. That was valuable

0:57:470:57:50

and I grabbed that with both hands.

0:57:500:57:52

So, in that sense, it was comforting.

0:57:520:57:55

It was the idea that somebody else understands.

0:57:550:57:57

# Are you going to Scarborough fair

0:58:060:58:13

# Parsley, sage rosemary and thyme

0:58:140:58:21

# Remember me to the one who lives there

0:58:230:58:30

# She once was a true love of mine... #

0:58:300:58:38

For 30 years, the Goldings lived in Bowerchalke,

0:58:380:58:41

an idyllic Wiltshire village just outside Salisbury.

0:58:410:58:44

"I am small and in the garden at Marlborough.

0:58:480:58:52

"It is twilight. There is a live snake in the garden

0:58:520:58:56

"which seems to me about five feet long

0:58:560:58:59

"and thick as my arm.

0:58:590:59:01

"I hold it firmly close behind the head with my left hand,

0:59:010:59:06

"since I am left-handed. The snake writhes and struggles,

0:59:060:59:09

"but I know it cannot bite or sting me so long as I hold it just so.

0:59:090:59:13

"Somehow the affair changes.

0:59:150:59:17

"I am examining a dark hole in the garden

0:59:170:59:20

"and the snake is inside, its head now resting in the entrance."

0:59:200:59:24

I mean, you know, he doesn't bother to say,

0:59:240:59:27

"This is just so amazingly Freudian I don't know what to do about it."

0:59:270:59:31

I think it was 1966.

0:59:380:59:40

My father received a letter from an American graduate student,

0:59:410:59:45

a woman,

0:59:450:59:47

saying she was studying his work and would like to talk to him.

0:59:470:59:53

And he got lots of these letters

0:59:530:59:55

and, mostly, he said, "No."

0:59:550:59:59

This time he said no politely and she was much more persistent.

0:59:591:00:05

I wrote him a letter.

1:00:081:00:10

I got a response and he told me, yes, that he would see me.

1:00:101:00:13

I could take the train up to Salisbury

1:00:131:00:17

and he would give me lunch in a pub

1:00:171:00:19

and he would be sitting in his Rover,

1:00:191:00:22

and he wrote out the licence number.

1:00:221:00:25

And we went to a pub for lunch and then we talked.

1:00:301:00:35

I think the two of us were both very nervous, I certainly was.

1:00:351:00:39

And then he took me to Old Sarum and he took me to Stonehenge.

1:00:391:00:43

This was a very big thing in both my parents' lives.

1:00:461:00:51

Virginia was a very attractive, very intelligent,

1:00:511:00:55

very sympathetic person.

1:00:551:00:57

Very interested in his writing,

1:00:571:01:00

somebody I think my father wanted to be friends with.

1:01:001:01:04

But I think it would be misleading

1:01:041:01:09

if I didn't acknowledge that he also,

1:01:091:01:12

at some layer, at some degree,

1:01:121:01:16

I think he fell in love with her.

1:01:161:01:18

Was he infatuated with a young Virginia Tiger?

1:01:261:01:30

Was he smitten with a young Virginia Tiger, to use an English phrase?

1:01:301:01:34

Was he besotted with a young Virginia Tiger,

1:01:341:01:37

to use something that might be used in France or Italy

1:01:371:01:40

or one of those wicked places?

1:01:401:01:42

I would say, yes, he must have been.

1:01:421:01:44

There must have been that interest.

1:01:441:01:47

We were not lovers, although it was thought that...

1:01:471:01:50

I'm sure that Ann thought that might have been a possibility.

1:01:501:01:53

We were not lovers. We were very, very good friends.

1:01:531:01:57

"We had one of those interminable, reasonable conversations

1:02:011:02:04

"about the relationship between men and women.

1:02:041:02:07

"One would not be jealous.

1:02:071:02:10

"One would understand enjoyment taken with a third person.

1:02:101:02:13

"Nothing was permanent, nothing was more than relative.

1:02:131:02:16

"Sex was a private business, sex was a clinical matter

1:02:161:02:21

"and contraception had removed the need for orthodox family life.

1:02:211:02:25

"And then suddenly we were clinging to each other

1:02:251:02:28

"as though we were the only stable thing in an earthquake."

1:02:281:02:31

You have to remember that I was young,

1:02:341:02:37

certainly smart, and attractive.

1:02:371:02:40

So she made it very uncomfortable for me.

1:02:401:02:44

I think, er... I think she didn't like me.

1:02:441:02:49

I'm sure she didn't like me.

1:02:491:02:51

Ann was deeply, deeply resentful and jealous

1:02:511:02:56

because she thought that she was the person who shared his creative life,

1:02:561:03:00

of course, and had shared his creative life, still did.

1:03:001:03:04

So yeah, it was a very bad moment for the marriage

1:03:041:03:06

and in some sense didn't heal.

1:03:061:03:09

Golding's preferred means of escape was to go to sea.

1:03:131:03:17

In 1966, he used some of his new-found wealth

1:03:171:03:21

to buy a glamorous Dutch racing yacht called Tenace

1:03:211:03:25

in which he planned to sail through the canals of France to Greece.

1:03:251:03:30

It was 1967

1:03:311:03:33

and we set sail on this tremendous boat.

1:03:331:03:38

We were sailing through lightish fog

1:03:381:03:42

when suddenly...

1:03:421:03:44

I mean, it was most extraordinary.

1:03:441:03:47

Part of the fog seemed to get thicker.

1:03:471:03:49

And then we realised it was the bow of a huge ship.

1:03:581:04:02

It was an enormous freighter and it wasn't very far away

1:04:021:04:07

and it was coming straight for us.

1:04:071:04:09

And my father put the boat about

1:04:101:04:13

and we just glanced

1:04:131:04:16

down the side of this boat

1:04:161:04:19

and water started to come in.

1:04:191:04:22

And I think it very likely that we would have drowned.

1:04:221:04:25

Then we saw that somebody on the boat had seen us.

1:04:261:04:30

They went round in a huge circle and came back and found us again.

1:04:301:04:35

It affected both my parents terribly strongly.

1:04:411:04:44

My mother instantly became very ill.

1:04:441:04:46

My father became fantastically depressed

1:04:461:04:51

and I think it's easy to see why.

1:04:511:04:56

He was a sailor, that was one of the defining aspects of him, I think.

1:04:561:05:02

And if you're a sailor and a captain

1:05:021:05:05

and you lose your ship...

1:05:051:05:07

That's a very crushing disgrace.

1:05:091:05:12

I was able to see him after that.

1:05:161:05:20

We were in a pub in London

1:05:201:05:23

and he looked up at a lovely barmaid

1:05:231:05:28

and remembered lines from Eliot's The Love Song Of J. Alfred Prufrock.

1:05:281:05:34

And these are...

1:05:341:05:36

"We have lingered in the chambers of the sea

1:05:361:05:39

"By sea girls wreathed

1:05:391:05:42

"With seaweed, red and brown,

1:05:421:05:46

"Till human voices wake us and we drown."

1:05:461:05:49

I would think that we were in correspondence

1:05:521:05:55

less and less over five years.

1:05:551:05:58

I think that Ann felt it had gone on, the correspondence had gone on

1:05:581:06:03

too long and that that should stop.

1:06:031:06:05

"I find it difficult to decide when the crisis began.

1:06:111:06:15

"But by 1971, it was unendurable.

1:06:151:06:18

"Not only did life seem pointless,

1:06:181:06:22

"there was a kind of raw intensity about daylight perception

1:06:221:06:25

"that could not be endured.

1:06:251:06:28

"On top of that, there was an insomniac length to every night

1:06:281:06:32

"when each second had its own weight,

1:06:321:06:34

"its tiny addition like a Chinese water torture.

1:06:341:06:40

"The remedy for this, of course, was drink - the old, old anodyne.

1:06:401:06:46

"I do not now remember how many times

1:06:461:06:48

"I was dead drunk in this period."

1:06:481:06:50

I think part of the depression, really,

1:06:521:06:56

was simply that he didn't have enough structure around him.

1:06:561:07:00

He'd had this terrifying school day

1:07:001:07:02

and he'd wrote books in it very successfully.

1:07:021:07:05

I mean, I think he missed that and he missed the contact certainly.

1:07:051:07:09

And it's a bit of a mistake a lot of the time

1:07:091:07:12

for writers to shut themselves away.

1:07:121:07:14

After the Tenace was sunk in 1967,

1:07:151:07:18

Golding wouldn't write another novel for more than ten years.

1:07:181:07:22

He had quit the job as a teacher.

1:07:251:07:28

He was living and working at home.

1:07:281:07:30

But Ann was also not working outside the home.

1:07:301:07:32

There were occasional moments when the two of them would disappear

1:07:321:07:36

and it was known they were talking about Bill's writing.

1:07:361:07:39

But also in the early '70s, this was a period

1:07:391:07:42

when he was having a lot of trouble writing.

1:07:421:07:45

So in a sense of... The absolutely verboten question was,

1:07:451:07:49

"Are you writing something now?"

1:07:491:07:51

You know, "Would you like to talk about it?"

1:07:511:07:54

"Once or twice I was drunk for more than a day.

1:07:561:08:00

"I said unforgivable things to Ann and pulled her about

1:08:001:08:03

"on at least three occasions.

1:08:031:08:07

"The rawness of daylight pushed at me.

1:08:071:08:09

"The presence of David exasperated me.

1:08:091:08:12

"My inability to write fretted me and I drank."

1:08:141:08:18

Another source of Golding's distress was his son David's mental illness.

1:08:221:08:28

Although David went to Oxford, he found university very stressful

1:08:281:08:32

and his behaviour became increasingly unstable.

1:08:321:08:35

My tutor at Brasenose

1:08:371:08:41

offered to let me have a year off

1:08:411:08:44

and go to the Warneford Hospital in Oxford,

1:08:441:08:48

but I rejected that.

1:08:481:08:51

I felt I had to face this

1:08:511:08:54

and go through the normal process of an undergraduate.

1:08:541:09:00

But, later, it got worse.

1:09:001:09:03

I think it really hit about 1968,

1:09:041:09:08

because that's a year I really don't remember much about.

1:09:081:09:12

I know things were happening which I should've been interested in,

1:09:121:09:16

like the invasion of Czechoslovakia by the Soviet Union.

1:09:161:09:20

For my parents to have a child

1:09:241:09:27

with a real severe, lifelong mental illness

1:09:271:09:31

was, I think, their great tragedy.

1:09:311:09:34

"The figure was a child,

1:09:391:09:42

"drawing nearer.

1:09:421:09:45

"He was naked and the miles of light lit him variously.

1:09:451:09:50

"A child's stride is quick,

1:09:501:09:53

"but this child walked down the very middle of the street

1:09:531:09:56

"with a kind of ritual gait

1:09:561:09:58

"that in an adult would have been called solemn.

1:09:581:10:02

"His face was so swollen he could only glimpse

1:10:031:10:06

"where he was going through the merest of slits.

1:10:061:10:09

"It was perhaps something animal that was directing him

1:10:101:10:14

"away from the place where the world was being consumed.

1:10:141:10:17

"Perhaps it was luck, good or bad,

1:10:171:10:21

"that kept him pacing in the one direction where he might survive."

1:10:211:10:25

I think that Darkness Visible is Golding's reaction

1:10:291:10:32

to what had happened to David.

1:10:321:10:35

He said that there were two novels he had tried to portray a saint in.

1:10:371:10:42

One was Simon in Lord of the Flies,

1:10:421:10:45

the other was Matty in Darkness Visible.

1:10:451:10:48

He was writing a novel about the Blitz

1:10:501:10:53

and a child who walks naked out of a firestorm.

1:10:531:10:57

It can't have happened.

1:10:571:10:59

This is the kind of firestorm that melts metal.

1:10:591:11:03

Eventually, after very strange adventures,

1:11:031:11:07

the kind that happen to a sort of religious maniac,

1:11:071:11:11

he develops a relationship with spirits

1:11:111:11:14

who tell him that he's to be sacrificed.

1:11:141:11:17

I think that Darkness Visible is a kind of homage to David.

1:11:191:11:23

David was very religious. Became a Catholic,

1:11:231:11:27

gave away his possessions.

1:11:271:11:29

Saintly boy.

1:11:291:11:31

And I think this novel is an attempt to come to terms with

1:11:311:11:35

and see what is great in David.

1:11:351:11:40

Sometime this year, my brother said to me,

1:11:431:11:46

"Of course, you know, I think Matty is me, really."

1:11:461:11:49

And I was, um...surprised,

1:11:491:11:53

but, in a sense, relieved,

1:11:531:11:55

because that means it's OK to discuss it now.

1:11:551:11:58

I think there's a huge link between Matty and David,

1:11:581:12:02

and I think there's also a link between Matty and my father.

1:12:021:12:05

My own feeling, having watched David through these terrible vicissitudes,

1:12:051:12:12

is that his mind is quite similar to my father's,

1:12:121:12:16

and his imaginative capacity is quite similar,

1:12:161:12:20

but something has just tipped it too far that way.

1:12:201:12:25

Whereas I think my father's imagination,

1:12:251:12:28

which is often quite touch and go

1:12:281:12:33

on the "is he sane, is he mad" front...

1:12:331:12:36

..it just manages to walk the line in between it.

1:12:371:12:42

'We're now alerted to the dangers of an uncontrolled use of pesticides.

1:12:451:12:49

'Traces of DDT have even been found in the fat of penguins

1:12:491:12:53

'and it took Professor Lovelock's electron absorption detector

1:12:531:12:57

'to spot the minute, although important, quantities involved.'

1:12:571:13:00

We both of us walked from our homes to the village post office.

1:13:011:13:07

And we would start talking to each other in the way you do,

1:13:081:13:12

in a village like Bowerchalke,

1:13:121:13:14

and that led to exchange of all sorts of views.

1:13:141:13:19

We talked about it, and in a sense it was a joint thing.

1:13:201:13:25

The earth is a system made up of all of the rocks,

1:13:261:13:31

the ocean and the atmosphere and all of the living things,

1:13:311:13:35

working together to form a self-regulating entity

1:13:351:13:40

that keeps its climate and chemical composition always

1:13:401:13:44

so that the planet is habitable.

1:13:441:13:46

In other words, big as it is,

1:13:461:13:49

it's still behaving as if it were something alive.

1:13:491:13:52

And Bill said, "If you're going to come up with a grand idea like that,

1:13:541:13:58

"you better give it a good name." So I said, "What would you suggest?"

1:13:581:14:02

He said, "I'd call it Gaia, the Greek name for the earth's goddess."

1:14:021:14:07

"Now we, if not in the spirit,

1:14:161:14:20

"have been caught up to see our earth,

1:14:201:14:22

"our mother, Gaia Mater, set like a jewel in space.

1:14:221:14:29

"We have no excuse now for supposing her riches inexhaustible

1:14:291:14:34

"nor the area we have to live on limitless, because unbounded.

1:14:341:14:38

"We are the children of that great blue, white jewel.

1:14:401:14:45

"Through our mother, we are part of the solar system and part,

1:14:451:14:51

"through that, of the whole universe.

1:14:511:14:55

"In the blazing poetry of the fact, we are the children of the stars."

1:14:551:15:00

In October 1983,

1:15:041:15:06

Golding was awarded the Nobel Prize for literature,

1:15:061:15:11

the first English writer to receive it since Winston Churchill in 1953.

1:15:111:15:15

One of the judges in Stockholm

1:15:171:15:20

announced that he disagreed with the choice,

1:15:201:15:22

and described Golding as "a small British phenomenon of no importance."

1:15:221:15:27

There was a tremendous farce.

1:15:301:15:33

Other judges who shouldn't have broken confidence wrote to Golding

1:15:331:15:36

to cheer him up and said that these decisions were never actually unanimous,

1:15:361:15:40

that this bloke had taken leave of his senses.

1:15:401:15:44

Nonetheless, Golding was deeply hurt.

1:15:441:15:46

It just, in a way, reinforced his feeling that somewhere,

1:15:461:15:52

in the establishment of culture and the arts,

1:15:521:15:56

there was enmity directed against him.

1:15:561:15:59

"These are the good fellows whose duty it is to steer our ship,

1:16:051:16:09

"to haul on the ropes and do strange things with our sails

1:16:091:16:12

"in positions which must surely be perilous, so high they go.

1:16:121:16:16

"All this I watch with complacency from far off

1:16:181:16:22

"in the shelter of the wooden wall with its stairways, that lead up

1:16:221:16:25

"to where the privileged passengers live.

1:16:251:16:28

"But forward, beyond the white line which separates the social orders,

1:16:281:16:33

"the people work and sing and keep time to the fiddle when they play.

1:16:331:16:37

"For like children, they play,

1:16:371:16:39

"dancing innocently to the sound of the fiddle."

1:16:391:16:43

Rites of Passage is the first in a trilogy of novels

1:16:461:16:50

which chronicle a voyage from England to Australia

1:16:501:16:54

in the early 19th century.

1:16:541:16:56

It is a monumental late work

1:16:561:16:58

in which Golding pursues his constant themes of class,

1:16:581:17:01

myth, the border between reality and unreality,

1:17:011:17:06

and man's capacity for inhumanity.

1:17:061:17:08

'It's a voyage that takes a year from Tilbury Docks to Sydney Harbour.

1:17:111:17:14

'The overall headline of the story

1:17:141:17:16

'is trying to get from one end of the earth to the other by sea'

1:17:161:17:21

using ropes and pulleys, canvas and wood,

1:17:211:17:23

in order to try and battle against the ever-changing, ever-unpredictable

1:17:231:17:28

and unmasterable sea.

1:17:281:17:29

'Celebrations are in full swing

1:17:351:17:38

'with the news that the 1980 Booker Prize for fiction

1:17:381:17:41

'has been won by William Golding.'

1:17:411:17:43

'Rites Of Passage,'

1:17:431:17:45

a powerful, allegorical novel about life on board a sailing ship

1:17:451:17:49

going from England to Australia in the early 19th century.

1:17:491:17:52

'I don't like the word "allegorical", I don't like the word "symbolic".

1:17:521:17:56

'"he word I really like is "mythic" and people always think

1:17:561:18:01

'that means full of lies, whereas of course what it really means'

1:18:011:18:04

is full of a truth that cannot be told in any other way but a story.

1:18:041:18:10

What do you think, to put it very crudely, you were trying to say?

1:18:101:18:14

What is that truth that you were trying to convey?

1:18:141:18:17

Oh, mercy, the brotherhood of man

1:18:171:18:22

and the capacity for cruelty that we all have in us

1:18:221:18:26

and which we have to control.

1:18:261:18:29

No, I'm not ready!

1:18:291:18:30

No! No!

1:18:321:18:34

Please!

1:18:341:18:36

Rites of Passage centres on the public humiliation

1:18:361:18:39

of one of the passengers, a parson who gets drunk,

1:18:391:18:44

has sex with one of the sailors, and then literally dies of shame.

1:18:441:18:48

You must be cleansed!

1:18:481:18:51

CHEERING

1:18:511:18:53

There's a crossing of the line ceremony where they go across the equator and Neptune arises

1:18:531:18:58

and there's this big sort of festival.

1:18:581:19:00

And the Reverend Colley is the subject of the dunking,

1:19:001:19:02

the sort of ritual to take one of the passengers and sort of baptise them.

1:19:021:19:07

And it's very, very fierce.

1:19:091:19:10

I think Golding's always been fascinated with that, how closely we rub up against barbarity.

1:19:101:19:16

And that within the blink of an eye,

1:19:161:19:19

you can have something very civilised and seemingly in control

1:19:191:19:23

turn into something that is monstrous.

1:19:231:19:25

I think he was particularly interested in humiliation.

1:19:291:19:32

The character Colley is desperately and utterly

1:19:321:19:35

and completely humiliated.

1:19:351:19:37

There's drunkenness, there's sexual humiliation, it's all in public.

1:19:371:19:42

I think that somewhat goes back to the social class aspect of things.

1:19:421:19:47

In June 1988, Golding was given a knighthood.

1:19:521:19:55

Paradoxically,

1:19:561:19:58

for a writer who had long complained about the English class system,

1:19:581:20:01

he had lobbied vociferously for the honour,

1:20:011:20:04

and immediately had his and Ann's passports changed

1:20:041:20:08

to "Sir William and Lady Golding".

1:20:081:20:10

In their 70s, the Goldings had moved to Cornwall.

1:20:131:20:17

They bought Tullimar,

1:20:171:20:19

a large Georgian house a few miles from the sea

1:20:191:20:23

in the village of Perranarworthal,

1:20:231:20:25

about as far away from the literary world Golding so disliked

1:20:251:20:29

as it was possible to be.

1:20:291:20:31

Matthew Evans, who was then the chairman of Faber & Faber said,

1:20:341:20:38

"Bill rather wants a version of Lord Of The Flies done for the stage."

1:20:381:20:44

And down I went to Cornwall.

1:20:441:20:47

And they said, "He'll meet you at the station."

1:20:471:20:51

He said, "We live down here because people can't get at us."

1:20:511:20:55

But he said, "I think that the way to present this book in the theatre,

1:20:551:21:00

"and I think it would be good in the theatre,

1:21:001:21:02

"is to try and scrape it back to the original intellectual themes

1:21:021:21:07

"that are at its heart."

1:21:071:21:08

'It really is the story of English democracy

1:21:101:21:14

'and the way in which democracy is a very fragile thing

1:21:141:21:18

'that can be broken.'

1:21:181:21:19

"The dark boy, Roger, stirred at last and spoke up, 'Let's have a vote'.

1:21:191:21:26

"Yes, vote for a chief, let's vote."

1:21:261:21:29

-CONCH BLARES

-You've done it!

1:21:291:21:31

CONCH BLARES

1:21:321:21:33

This symbol of the conch, which is at the heart of the whole book,

1:21:331:21:38

which is the moment which they can all come together

1:21:381:21:40

and agree on something, it could be a symbol of kingly power,

1:21:401:21:44

it could be the staff at the English Houses of Parliament,

1:21:441:21:48

but it's very much to do with English consensus

1:21:481:21:51

and he was fascinated by that.

1:21:511:21:53

And that's what he saw the book being about,

1:21:531:21:55

because it's about a group of English schoolboys.

1:21:551:21:58

As the guy says at the end of the book,

1:21:581:22:00

"I thought an English bunch of schoolboys would have done a little bit better than that."

1:22:001:22:04

So it's sort of about the old school tie, too.

1:22:041:22:08

Maybe there is a beast.

1:22:081:22:11

LAUGHTER

1:22:111:22:12

Hear him! He's got the conch.

1:22:121:22:15

'What I mean is...

1:22:151:22:18

'maybe it's only us.'

1:22:181:22:20

On the island, there was nothing for the boys to fear

1:22:221:22:25

but fear itself, really. But that fear produced gangs

1:22:251:22:28

and produced violence in the end. You've got Jack's camp

1:22:281:22:32

and you've got Ralph's camp at the end of the day.

1:22:321:22:34

The only thing that produced those was the fear

1:22:341:22:36

and the beast, which WAS the fear.

1:22:361:22:40

< Could you give us an example?

1:22:401:22:41

I don't know, say, like, recently, the riots.

1:22:411:22:44

It's people... They're destroying their own place,

1:22:441:22:49

their own city, because on the island, they're afraid of things,

1:22:491:22:54

when really it turns out to be themselves, so they destroy their own habitat through the fires

1:22:541:22:59

and destroy each other's lives.

1:22:591:23:01

SCREAMING

1:23:011:23:04

"Jack had backed right against the tribe

1:23:121:23:15

"and they were a solid mass of menace that bristled with spears.

1:23:151:23:19

"The intention of a charge was forming among them.

1:23:191:23:22

"Ralph stood facing them, a little to one side, his spear ready.

1:23:221:23:27

"The storm of sound beat at them, an incantation of hatred."

1:23:271:23:31

'Slit his throat! Bash him in! Kill the pig!'

1:23:311:23:34

The debate about good and evil is absolutely at the heart,

1:23:341:23:37

the debate about original sin.

1:23:371:23:39

Is man a wicked person who has to be improved and moulded by society?

1:23:391:23:45

Or is man naturally good?

1:23:451:23:48

It touches on an absolutely fundamental debate.

1:23:481:23:51

'We have a disharmony in our natures.

1:23:571:24:01

'We cannot live together without injuring each other.'

1:24:021:24:06

If you look at, not just Lord Of The Flies, but all the books,

1:24:171:24:22

I don't think there is another post-war English novelist

1:24:221:24:26

who goes so deeply into these fundamental questions

1:24:261:24:29

of morality and politics.

1:24:291:24:31

I can't think of another writer who matches him,

1:24:331:24:37

for the intense way he experiences human emotions, human passion

1:24:371:24:42

in a poetic and yet controlled and English way.

1:24:421:24:45

I found his body that morning - he died very, very suddenly.

1:24:521:24:57

And fortunately my father, who's a doctor, was in the house

1:24:571:25:01

and could talk me through this, and indeed the rest of the family,

1:25:011:25:06

because I'd never seen a dead body before.

1:25:061:25:09

I wanted to put the body on the back of a horse

1:25:121:25:14

and take it to the top of a hill and make a bonfire out of it.

1:25:141:25:17

Or alternatively put it on a boat, a flaming boat and push it out to sea.

1:25:171:25:24

He was clearly very involved with the great epic writers,

1:25:251:25:30

so I pictured him also as a kind of Greek bard

1:25:301:25:33

in a kind of Homeric mode.

1:25:331:25:35

Almost with a lyre, declaiming these things.

1:25:351:25:38

In The Spire, when Jocelyn's dying,

1:25:431:25:46

he's obviously in a fairly weird state

1:25:461:25:51

and he sees the people around him, not as the human beings

1:25:511:25:56

he's familiar with, but as shapes and structures and textures

1:25:561:26:02

that are completely unfamiliar.

1:26:021:26:04

And this was 1964, nearly 30 years before he died,

1:26:051:26:09

and he obviously had a strong idea of what it was like to die.

1:26:091:26:15

"No matter how high he rises, robe after robe,

1:26:181:26:22

"tomorrow or the day after,

1:26:221:26:25

"they will tap three times

1:26:251:26:27

"on the smooth parchment of that forehead with the silver hammer.

1:26:271:26:31

"Then his mind trotted away again

1:26:331:26:36

"and he saw what an extraordinary creature Father Adam was,

1:26:361:26:40

"covered in parchment from head to foot,

1:26:401:26:43

"parchment stretched or tucked in,

1:26:431:26:46

"with curious hairs on top

1:26:461:26:49

"and a mad structure of bones to keep it apart.

1:26:491:26:54

"Immediately, as in a dream that came between him and the face,

1:26:541:26:59

"he saw all people naked, creatures of light brown parchment

1:26:591:27:04

"which bound in their pipes or struts.

1:27:041:27:07

"He saw them pace or prance in sheets of woven stuff

1:27:081:27:13

"with the skins of dead animals under their feet.

1:27:131:27:16

"And he began to struggle and gasp to leave this vision behind him

1:27:171:27:22

"in words that never reached the air."

1:27:221:27:25

'It seems to me that we do live in two worlds.

1:27:381:27:41

'There is this physical one which is coherent,

1:27:411:27:44

'and there is a spiritual one, which to the average man,

1:27:441:27:49

'with his flashes of religious experience,

1:27:491:27:52

'if you'd like to call them, that world is very often incoherent.'

1:27:521:27:56

This experience of having two worlds to live in all the time

1:27:581:28:02

or not all the time, occasionally,

1:28:021:28:05

is a vital one and is what living is like.

1:28:051:28:09

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