Eve Arnold - In Retrospect Omnibus


Eve Arnold - In Retrospect

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The life in the pictures are the people themselves. It's definitely human studies.

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-<

-The Migrants and Marilyn, you want together - it's the same area.

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We didn't mind back-tracking a bit.

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My problem is - what does it say, and does it make sense?

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I would say a certain consciousness I see from the photographs...

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and an awareness of...

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humanity.

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-What about the queen being on the left and the bobbies on the right?

->

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The queen is ALWAYS on the right.

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THEY LAUGH

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And you walk out backward.

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It's not posed. It's like she happens upon it.

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She is versatile. She has an eye for many things.

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These two get lost on this big wall...

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'I fell into photography by accident.

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'Practically everything I did for the first few years was by chance.'

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..Cos you've got this big wall here.

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'I've always felt the difference between a fine and an average photographer

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'is having the wit to take advantage of the chance of what's going on.

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'I figured they were my children - the bad, the good and the medium!'

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-That one's good!

-Oh, yes!

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Stop admiring your pictures!

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Who else is gonna do it if I don't?

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I first met Eve when she came to Ireland

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to talk to my father about The Misfits.

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I worked on... eight or nine of Huston's films.

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I was going to make this film with my father. I was about 15 years old...

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John asked me to photograph her.

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To launch my... rather dim career at the time!

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He had had, um...Bailey... I shouldn't name him!

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He had two photographers photograph her.

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Norman Parkinson and David Bailey.

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I was very prone to wearing a lot of make-up,

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which wasn't appropriate

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for a... a 15th-century heroine.

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She looked about 40, so I lit her dramatically.

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I was in Ireland and Eve was brought into the picture.

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I dressed her colourfully and we went to Ireland where she was happy.

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And I remember our going out to a ruined castle

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in a Kenneth Noland dress.

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And...very quietly,

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and succinctly, as was her way,

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she proceeded to take photographs.

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I remember being tortured by my physical image -

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anything I thought really resembled me.

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So, of all the photographs that were taken for the movie, Eve's were my least favourite

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because they look the most like me.

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Now, I would say they're quite fresh and sweet.

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What's odd about those photographs

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is I don't remember her recording those moments.

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At that time, I remember my relationship with my father being mostly frictional.

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I'm shocked at how "sweet" they are.

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She recorded the apologetic side of me.

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The part that was reluctant.

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All of those things that I was feeling.

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You look at images of yourself that destroyed you in your youth

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that now appear sort of...lovely!

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Eve is the fly on the wall with the very round eyes

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that sees all the permutations and sees all of the aspects.

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-WOMAN:

-It takes me on a level, too.

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-Do we need it?

-Yeah!

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It talks about your photo origins.

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I don't know why I asked my son's nursemaid about fashion in Harlem.

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She told me there were 300 fashion shows a year with paid audiences.

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'The thing that I find incredible is to be here after all these years.

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'This church was very important in this.'

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So where would the girls be coming from?

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They would come from here or here,

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singly or sometimes in a long parade.

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All in this very narrow space. It was incredible.

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They would stride across here.

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There were a few like fabulous Charlotte Stibling -

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she was stunning.

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When I first came in, she was swinging along the catwalk.

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When she saw me, she started to mince

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like white women did.

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They would stop and pose - that's what she did when she saw me.

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In those days, she had a suitcase of hairpieces that were all colours.

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She was THE big model of the year.

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-Corsets...

-But gorgeous ones!

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They designed them and made them themselves with great style.

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There's a lot to be said about style. We all have our own style.

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Harlem's been known for years and years for its wonderful style.

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All you have to do is come to church on any Sunday

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to see what style is!

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I remember very well Yves Saint Laurent said...

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He was the only designer when I started modelling in 1975

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who used black girls in abundance - in any shape, in any colour,

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light-skinned, dark-skinned and anything in between.

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He was totally inspired by Harlem.

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An ordinary worker would earn 10 a week.

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They would pay 3 to see the show.

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So it was more like an entertainment?

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It was that and it was a social evening,

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a kind of a coming together

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of black peoples.

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It was something that was highly personal and original, and theirs.

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The shows were the only time where black models had a chance to take flight, to show what they can do.

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But we were never considered as beauties for photography.

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What they were doing and the clothes they were making was a social protest.

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They didn't want any part of the shmatte trade in New York. They stayed far away.

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If they bought fabric, they bought it in Harlem.

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If they bought patterns, they bought them in Harlem.

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It was almost impossible to place this story,

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so it went to Britain to be published.

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It was never published in the US.

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Whether it is photography or music,

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it still had to go through Europe to return to America to be celebrated.

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-When were you last there?

-Not since the '60s...

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early '61 maybe.

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And I must say I am concerned

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cos I hear there are quarter-acre plots all over the place.

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But I hope the character and some of the people have remained as was.

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I don't know where it is.

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It WAS a white house - it could be anything now!

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This is the house.

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It was with regret that I left it,

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but I wouldn't have had the big world otherwise.

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I'd have stayed in suburbia.

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It's a wonderful mix of going out into the big REAL world,

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and then there's an isolated community where nothing happened.

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I'm David Davis. My family's been here for generations.

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My father started the peach orchard in 1910.

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My grandfather raised potatoes and cauliflower.

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I remember you taking a picture of me with a couple of baskets of eggs.

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I was hoping to get it in Life magazine!

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There were so many people who did so many things within the community.

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They were all called Davis.

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Margaret Davis looked after the local library.

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The local postmistress was a Davis.

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One of them ran the grocery shop.

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Some had been to Harvard College. There was a whole mixture.

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I would photograph various aspects of their lives.

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I used it to learn to photograph, to get close to people.

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-Who's this?!

-Marion Smith -

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she lived across the street.

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I don't know who THAT was...

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Bob Madson... That's our daughter!

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-That's your daughter?!

-That's me, with child.

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Oh, God!

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-It's like old friends!

-That's my father!

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You know, you change, you grow, you develop,

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but these are basically OK.

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I would still edit them.

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Some are better than others. Some I'd do differently.

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The technique would be different cos I'd be using 35mm.

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In the '50s, I worked with 120 film.

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And so...

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the framing and sizing is different,

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but I think emotionally I haven't changed and nor have these people.

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I look at them as what they are - my early work.

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And I look at them in terms of my neighbours, friends,

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and with nostalgia and affection.

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People were very good to me. I loved them all and it was great to be here.

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Well, I hope it won't be another 34 years...

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before I see you again.

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-You know!

-Thank you. I'll send you a book.

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I'll be around. We'll try and find Margaret.

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-Good.

-All right?

-OK.

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Much love!

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In your 50 years, what pivotal events framed your life?

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My work and - I guess - my life, historically came about

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in the same way that picture journalism, historically...

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It parallels what happened.

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So in the '50s, we worked in black and white.

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We worked with a square format, and we experimented in colour.

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In the '60s, we worked with colour AND black and white.

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And the pivotal thing for me was my moving to England.

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And then in the '70s, you couldn't earn a living in picture journalism.

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In the '80s, it was black and white.

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Now there's a new approach to photography.

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Mechanical things are taking over from the emotional.

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Now it's time to examine where we were,

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and to look forward and see where we go.

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I tried to use

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whatever was in me

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to make things work for me.

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Because your own experience and ideas get transformed, hopefully,

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into something you can hold in your hand, representing what you've seen.

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What's the best example of that in your early work?

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Probably...

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a story on the birth of a child.

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I had lost a child

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in the early -

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not so early - mid-stages of pregnancy,

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and was horrified and saddened and distressed.

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I used that.

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I spent four months in a hospital photographing the birth of children

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and wound up by doing just the first five minutes.

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That intense time when the child is brought from the womb's security

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into the outside world, and what happens for that five minutes

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when the child is weighed and slapped and measured...

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That five minutes took five months.

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And did it feed or heal your pain?

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No, I think it helped.

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In the beginning, I thought it was crazy to go to the pain's source.

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But after, I saw that life goes on.

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I'm proudest of this self-portrait cos that's a bitch to do!

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Is it the crinkled edges?

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Well, it's a paper print. The only one I've got like this.

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But it's nice to have looked like that once!

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Early on, it was pretty awful. A guy had a magazine called Cahiers.

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He said, "Goody! You'll be able to go into the dressing room with the actresses!"

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That's when I got mad and started doing political stuff like McCarthy.

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It was a dangerous thing to go near him.

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-Was there a certain amount of "I'll show you!"?

-Always.

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They're relaxin'.

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They have very lost looks.

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They don't seem to want to be there

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or even know where they are!

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It looks very European, very homey. I'd like to be with that one - he's kinda cute.

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I don't even know if these guys are alive or dead.

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Oooh!

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It looks like an insane asylum.

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Ohh!

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This I can't figure out.

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Two nuts and a tyre!

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What they're doing, I have no clue.

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I think they need a caption for this. It's not a joke. It's a political picture.

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These two men are political prisoners in Moscow,

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in an insane asylum, being treated as if they are insane

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because they were dissidents.

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This was a most unusual photograph to get.

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I asked about Soviet psychiatry

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and so I was very proudly taken to one of the great hospitals.

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While the man who was showing me through went to the phone,

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I peeped through a door and took it.

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The Russians were enraged when it appeared in a French magazine.

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I hit a period in Russian politics

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when Khrushchev was out and Brezhnev hadn't taken over.

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So I could slide in when nobody knew what was happening in the hierarchy.

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So they let me do things

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that were quite incredible for that period.

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I worked in jails where they kept juvenile delinquents,

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police courts...

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We did things that were remarkable for their day.

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Now I see my stories on the jails reproduced -

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the young going in shooting now are doing what I did in '66.

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She'd come back from Washington or China

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and I was just old enough to appreciate what she'd done.

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We sat in a darkened room and she'd project the crude stuff, unedited,

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occasionally out of focus or the exposure would be wrong.

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The whole thing glowed and was gorgeous.

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Er...that's Malcolm.

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He's got his Nation of Islam ring,

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his watch, his glasses,

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his signature hat.

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It looks like he's deep in thought but relaxed.

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Malcolm X?

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Denzel Washington, actually.

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The scariness of being a minority within a minority.

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It's great, but that Nation of Islam shit - they're so fucking homophobic.

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I like this - the ring, the Star of Islam here at his pineal gland.

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It's the Malcolm X you don't see often.

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The whimsical side of him which you don't see, ever.

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Maybe it's a moment of...

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relaxation, in a way.

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I read a doctoral thesis called The Black Moslem In America.

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I got intrigued and followed it up.

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I met Malcolm X and he was extraordinary.

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He could prove almost anything he chose with sheer sophistry.

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Malcolm knew she was an extraordinary person

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because at that time you didn't have...

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It was...no white women and there weren't too many white fellas.

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I would go to the Black Moslems' meetings

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and find myself with cigarette burns in the back of my sweater.

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I was always wise enough to wear a woollen sweater

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because wool doesn't burn, it smoulders.

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When I'd come back from a session, it'd be polka-dotted with burns.

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She had that ability to charm.

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She may have been crying inside, but she was smiling outside.

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I was not trying to be political on any score,

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but I couldn't help having certain interests and certain sympathies

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because the ideas don't go in your ears into your head and out of your ears and that's it.

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What happens is you think about these people.

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They mean a great deal to you.

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As I kept going, I kept adding more and more.

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I wound up in South Africa in the end!

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It was a very tough time -

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before Mandela was released and the changes came -

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photographing children dying of kwashiorkor.

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The book was banned in South Africa.

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The newspapers carried this great big story

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that it was banned because of Vanessa Redgrave's bottom.

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I don't see anything taboo about it.

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-Sex.

-Sex.

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Sexy!

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There's nothing wrong with 'em!

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It'sthe beautiful ass of awoman.

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It'sinteresting! Who doesn't like a pretty rear end?

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IwishIcouldseeherback andshoulders!

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Actually, the book had been banned

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because it showedchildren weredying ofmalnutrition.

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And I was so angry whentheycalled me.

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They said, "What is your comment?"

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And I said,

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"TheRedgrave pictures arenotobscene.

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"What IS obscene isthepoverty ofthese black people,

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"andthat these kids aredyingofstarvation!"

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She came back from South Africa feeling distraught.

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She wasaffected by what she saw. Look at the photographs.

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Did she and does she have apolitical ideology?

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No. She has a point of view thatcomes across strongly.

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I grew up in a generation wherewomen had a given role.

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You were in the kitchen withthechildren,

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you were "subservient" to the man.

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And my mother found that

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Iwastrying to break out of anareathat I shouldn't have.

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She thought it was "ashunder"

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which wasYiddishforsomewhere between a disgrace and ashame.

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It was shameful for me towork. My husbandshould besupportingme.

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I had a husband who supported me, but so that I could learn tobeaphotographer.

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She was very embarrassed - what would theneighbourssay?

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She was poor her whole life and wanted for me what she hadn't had.

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It was generous, butitwasn'twhatI wanted.

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When she saw one ofthebigstories that I did -

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the firstfiveminutes ofababy'slife -

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she looked at it and a neighbour said,"Aren'tyouof proud of Eve?"

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She said, "Uh."

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-Was "uh" a compliment?

-Thatwasa BIG compliment!

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She'd accepted it by that time.

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Did she then go on tobecomeinterested and involved?

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Or did itstay intherealmsof"uh"?

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It was always grudging.

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It was never, "Isn'tthiswonderful?!" No.

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Shefeltthatlifewastoohard for me and she wanted it easier.

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But I didn't.

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OK, that's for my mom!

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Hello!

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I'm very honoured to meet you!

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-I'm honoured to be here!It's wonderful!

-I hope it'scolourful!

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Nobodywould everquestionthat! Isabella's not here?

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-She will be shortly. >

-I'll get to work.

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'It always amazes me

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'how with two eyes, a mouth and a nose,

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'a pair of eyebrows and some hair,

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'you can bring so many infinite variations.

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'If you're sincere

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'about what you are doing -

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'and give the sense you know what you're doing -

0:24:500:24:53

'then it's possible to receive from someone in front of your lens.'

0:24:530:24:59

'When I shoot, I start with behind the scenes if I can.

0:25:050:25:10

'Then, by the time the action takes place,

0:25:100:25:14

'the hope is the subject will have forgotten you're there.'

0:25:140:25:18

I can't believe it, we're here!

0:25:230:25:26

Oh, my God!

0:25:270:25:30

Right... Isabella...

0:25:370:25:40

Wait until I get my camera!

0:25:430:25:46

'Sometimes there's a great sense of excitation - you know you've got it.

0:25:490:25:54

'It's within one frame or another.'

0:25:540:25:57

Isabella, give me some...stuff!

0:25:570:25:59

'They're only successful if they reveal something I would not have expected to be given.'

0:25:590:26:06

Move your arms!

0:26:060:26:08

'It's a collaboration between you both.

0:26:080:26:11

'If people know how to read a photograph,

0:26:110:26:15

'they know what's being said.

0:26:150:26:18

'If they don't, I try and put it in the caption!'

0:26:180:26:21

Enough!

0:26:330:26:34

She's not just a pretty face!

0:26:340:26:37

We'll have a vitrine under here.

0:26:370:26:40

-Uh-huh.

-And one under the brides.

0:26:400:26:43

And let's not forget the various colours drawn on...

0:26:490:26:55

Let me just look first. Please!

0:26:550:26:58

OK?

0:26:580:26:59

Somebody offered me a recording session of Marlene Dietrich

0:27:080:27:12

at Columbia Records.

0:27:120:27:15

That was extraordinary because she knew more about lighting and the camera than I will ever learn.

0:27:150:27:22

She was extraordinary.

0:27:220:27:24

And it went on for about six hours.

0:27:240:27:28

She was recording the songs she made famous during the War.

0:27:280:27:33

# Want to buy some illusions?

0:27:330:27:38

# Slightly used

0:27:380:27:40

# Second-hand

0:27:400:27:42

# They were lovely illusions

0:27:440:27:48

# Reaching higher

0:27:480:27:52

# Built on sand... #

0:27:520:27:55

When I saw her in front of the mike singing those songs,

0:27:550:27:59

I thought I'd never get it right.

0:27:590:28:01

I was too small, the camera was always there, it was a problem for other people.

0:28:010:28:08

Do you have any memory of being over the tray

0:28:080:28:12

and watching the photograph coming up and seeing your first photograph of Marlene?

0:28:120:28:18

There's a thrill that you'll never experience!

0:28:180:28:22

It's like making love the first time - if you get a good lover!

0:28:220:28:26

It was just incredible. You get a sense of power that you have.

0:28:260:28:32

And also a sense of apprehension,

0:28:320:28:35

because when it comes up, it might be wonderful, it might be terrible.

0:28:350:28:39

But the miracle itself is something never to forget.

0:28:390:28:43

-Listen, this is not Madam O'Neill.

-No, no!

0:28:430:28:47

-That's why I thought I'd lost my mind.

-I was pointing to that one.

0:28:470:28:52

-That's, er...

-Silvana Mangano.

-Right.

0:28:520:28:55

I sometimes think I would like to give a party

0:28:550:28:59

and all the people I've photographed would come and tell me what they thought of their pictures.

0:28:590:29:06

I've found many things on this beach -

0:29:090:29:12

shells,

0:29:120:29:14

all kinds of logs and beach wood.

0:29:140:29:17

But the most incredible thing I've found, is one day

0:29:170:29:22

I found Marilyn Monroe walking along with Norman Rosten, the poet.

0:29:220:29:28

Norman came over and said, "Remember Marilyn?!"

0:29:280:29:32

I remembered Marilyn - she was a starlet when I met her.

0:29:320:29:36

We'd met at a cocktail party given for John Huston.

0:29:360:29:41

She was brought over and introduced.

0:29:410:29:44

She'd just seen a picture that I'd done for Marlene Dietrich

0:29:460:29:50

and she said, "You did so well with Marlene, can you imagine what you could do with me?!"

0:29:500:29:58

ANJELICA HUSTON: When I think about her photographs from that period -

0:29:580:30:04

those fantastic portraits of Marilyn...

0:30:040:30:07

Marilyn in black and white was staggering -

0:30:070:30:12

her legs a little fat,

0:30:120:30:14

her eyes quite sad.

0:30:140:30:17

Marilyn imperfect...

0:30:170:30:19

Perfectly imperfect!

0:30:190:30:21

These are intimate moments

0:30:230:30:26

which somehow she records

0:30:260:30:29

within the moment.

0:30:290:30:32

The flirtatiousness,

0:30:320:30:35

and her need to be womanly and sexy

0:30:350:30:38

never obtained with me.

0:30:380:30:40

We had a professional friendship

0:30:420:30:45

that went on.

0:30:450:30:47

It was matter of trust too - this is what you have to gain.

0:30:470:30:53

If they trust you not to savage them,

0:30:530:30:56

to make sure they come out honestly,

0:30:560:30:59

then a great deal is given.

0:30:590:31:01

She had a means of making you feel that her vulnerability was your problem, not hers.

0:31:010:31:09

And so, over the years -

0:31:090:31:11

of course I did photograph her and we did get together and have wonderful times together -

0:31:110:31:18

there was always that sense that maybe I was "Mommy"

0:31:180:31:23

and she was "little girl lost".

0:31:230:31:26

And I found that irritated me

0:31:260:31:28

cos I didn't want to be Mommy and I didn't want her to be lost!

0:31:280:31:33

I'm not gonna lie down! No, thank you very much!

0:31:330:31:37

We collaborated. I don't remember where I began and she ended.

0:31:370:31:43

She was always having bright ideas.

0:31:430:31:46

It was always her session. It was never mine.

0:31:460:31:50

It was never the photographer's. She was in charge. She loved it.

0:31:500:31:55

She didn't have lines to learn or any worries. She was in charge of things.

0:31:550:32:01

Very sexy.

0:32:010:32:03

You mean the fact that she's not all revealed?

0:32:030:32:07

They're not showing everything, just pieces. It's even better.

0:32:070:32:12

I can see she's thinking about something

0:32:120:32:15

as opposed to her typical smile.

0:32:150:32:17

I see my wife doing that every day! They're no different!

0:32:170:32:22

She's just a bit, er...

0:32:220:32:24

revealed

0:32:240:32:26

in some places here.

0:32:260:32:28

It's less glamorous. It's, er...

0:32:280:32:31

more down-to-earth than when you see her wearing a voluptuous dress.

0:32:310:32:37

-Extremely different.

-Why?

0:32:370:32:39

Because you see her so often gentle, you don't see her Madonna-like.

0:32:390:32:45

She seems serene, doing something for herself instead of for the world.

0:32:450:32:51

When I started, nobody wanted that kind of thing.

0:32:510:32:56

I wasn't the only one doing it, but I was one of the first.

0:32:560:33:01

And the problem was the producers of the films were worried

0:33:010:33:05

because they kept saying, "You're killing the illusion!

0:33:050:33:10

"We're building dreams and you're giving us nightmares!"

0:33:100:33:15

But when they saw how much space they could command in magazines,

0:33:150:33:20

all that shifted.

0:33:200:33:22

Then suddenly it was OK not to take somebody into a studio,

0:33:220:33:27

to show them in an everyday, very humane and human situation.

0:33:270:33:32

So the whole thing changed.

0:33:320:33:35

You can look at an artist's work and see an evolution.

0:33:350:33:39

And you can see there are things that will speak all the way through the work.

0:33:390:33:46

There's, um... there's a path travelled, if you will.

0:33:460:33:51

And...and...and, um...

0:33:510:33:54

an obligation from the heart

0:33:540:33:57

to improve the world, if you will.

0:33:570:34:00

Something that innocent.

0:34:000:34:03

And it is...it does have to do with the innocent eye.

0:34:030:34:07

I suppose what Eve is good at

0:34:070:34:10

is to give us a real view of what is there,

0:34:100:34:14

not what people want to pretend themselves is there.

0:34:140:34:19

Often, that's more appealing than the image people wish to project.

0:34:190:34:25

What about the light-heartedness and the not-so?

0:34:250:34:29

Well, let's try it with the other one.

0:34:290:34:33

-Put that one there.

-Put this one...

0:34:350:34:38

That goes!

0:34:380:34:40

We'll lose her.

0:34:400:34:43

Bob Gottlieb will hit me! He loves that one!

0:34:430:34:48

She was a nice girl from Philadelphia.

0:34:480:34:51

It never occurred to her to be a photographer.

0:34:510:34:55

Next she's the first woman at Magnum!

0:34:550:34:58

You have presented yourself to the world - even as a beautiful young thing -

0:34:580:35:05

as a dear old lady who could mean no harm to anybody

0:35:050:35:09

and who just by luck has turned up.

0:35:090:35:12

No! You're over-stating the case!

0:35:120:35:15

It's like what you said before - this little girl from Philadelphia.

0:35:150:35:20

This combination of her ability,

0:35:200:35:23

her determination to do good work,

0:35:230:35:26

covered over by the self-deprecation,

0:35:260:35:29

the modesty,

0:35:290:35:32

is a very unique circumstance.

0:35:320:35:35

I was not aware that I was moving backward into the shadows.

0:35:350:35:40

But if you're a stills photographer, don't make a big thing of yourself.

0:35:400:35:45

It's your subject who is important.

0:35:450:35:48

So that you do become, after a while, recessive within the process.

0:35:480:35:53

So that I could get Marilyn Monroe

0:35:530:35:57

or Joan Crawford to strip down, to do anything without saying a word.

0:35:570:36:02

They were figuring out what would be good to give ME.

0:36:020:36:07

Joan Crawford in explaining what I was, said, "She has balls!"

0:36:070:36:12

I wouldn't go that far.

0:36:120:36:15

Look, I've made some changes over here.

0:36:150:36:18

What I've done is... There's more impact in horribleness

0:36:180:36:23

if we go from here to here, to here.

0:36:230:36:26

She's examining herself, deciding what's gonna happen to her,

0:36:260:36:30

goes in, gets herself bandaged up,

0:36:300:36:33

does her make-up,

0:36:330:36:36

and that's what she looks like when she's finished.

0:36:360:36:39

Very macabre.

0:36:390:36:41

I think it's a stronger way of doing it.

0:36:410:36:45

'In 1959, I had an idea I'd like to do a big story on her.

0:36:450:36:50

'I was working for Life magazine and I suggested it.

0:36:500:36:55

'And I called her

0:36:550:36:57

'and she was right back to me from California -

0:36:570:37:01

'"Yes, I want to be photographed by you. It's wonderful!"'

0:37:010:37:06

Then she said, "I want to go into the dark room with you the way Marilyn went in with Avedon."

0:37:060:37:13

It meant she wanted control. So I said, "I'll talk to my editors."

0:37:130:37:18

I suggested we didn't do her

0:37:180:37:20

because you wouldn't be able to do anything.

0:37:200:37:24

At any rate, um...

0:37:240:37:26

she called Henry Luce - head of Life - in the night and she said

0:37:260:37:32

"that Arnold woman" wouldn't give her control of her pictures.

0:37:320:37:37

He then was furious, called his editor and said, "Give her whatever she wants!"

0:37:370:37:43

They called me up and said, "She can have it!" And I said, "Not over my life, buddy!

0:37:430:37:50

"That's no way to do it!"

0:37:500:37:53

I said we should wait and see if she changed her mind.

0:37:530:37:57

Three hours later she called.

0:37:570:37:59

She said, "Darling!" in these dulcet tones, of course!

0:37:590:38:03

And then she said, "But...if I don't like what you do, you'll never work in Hollywood again!"

0:38:030:38:10

She wanted the public to see how difficult it was

0:38:310:38:35

to stay at the top of that heap.

0:38:350:38:38

Some things were so awful.

0:38:380:38:41

but I photographed cos she wanted them.

0:38:410:38:44

She posed in the nude at her request, which I returned to her cos I wouldn't use it.

0:38:440:38:51

Something happens to flesh after 50. It was cruel to do it.

0:38:510:38:55

You'd be hard-pressed to find a photographer who'd return those transparencies nowadays.

0:38:550:39:02

I guess I'm talking about integrity, taste and a kind of respect for the subject matter.

0:39:020:39:09

Crawford was the result of her publicity.

0:39:090:39:12

The sadness was she believed it.

0:39:120:39:15

When it came to somebody like Marilyn, it destroyed her.

0:39:150:39:19

It was fine while she had the fantasy that she'd be a movie star,

0:39:190:39:25

-but when that became the reality, she couldn't live with it.

-It still didn't make her happy?

0:39:250:39:32

No, because it was false, unreal, and not what she expected.

0:39:320:39:37

She expected it to be the end of the rainbow and it wasn't.

0:39:370:39:42

Have you mentioned the Crawford and the Marilyn?

0:39:420:39:46

I did some plain people, too!

0:39:460:39:49

My next question is - did you have equally important male subjects?

0:39:490:39:55

Not over a long stretch like that.

0:39:550:39:57

There are many men I've photographed -

0:39:570:40:01

four British prime ministers... and one woman - Maggie Thatcher!

0:40:010:40:05

-By mistake!

-That was no mistake! God what a day!

0:40:050:40:10

She was the toughest person I've ever had to photograph.

0:40:100:40:15

It went on for almost a year. She'd stand in the sun and squint.

0:40:150:40:21

And it was just so difficult.

0:40:210:40:24

Thatcher, thinking, "This is a woman. I can push her around!",

0:40:240:40:29

kept saying, "Shoot me from this angle, shoot me from that angle!"

0:40:290:40:34

That wouldn't work, and Eve did what Eve wanted to do.

0:40:340:40:39

There were very few females.

0:40:390:40:42

Luckily for me, I was smaller than everybody else.

0:40:420:40:46

At a news event you'd get a phalanx of men and they'd always say, "Come on, Eve, up front!"

0:40:460:40:53

It was a plus! Nobody thought I knew what I was doing, including me.

0:40:530:40:58

I look at your career, and you were so resourceful in figuring out what to do.

0:41:000:41:06

I want words of wisdom from you.

0:41:060:41:09

How can that resourcefulness be applied now

0:41:090:41:12

so we can aspire to do what you did in our own way?

0:41:120:41:16

If it's any comfort to you, my colleagues - younger ones -

0:41:160:41:22

both in Britain and here that I see,

0:41:220:41:24

are having it as tough as you are.

0:41:240:41:28

But they are shooting!

0:41:280:41:30

Picture journalism isn't going to go away.

0:41:300:41:33

It's like when television came in, we thought radio would disappear.

0:41:330:41:38

When photography came in, the artist said,

0:41:380:41:42

"As of today, art is dead."

0:41:420:41:46

It wasn't. It just took on different forms.

0:41:460:41:49

I was in the same spot as you when I started.

0:41:490:41:53

Nobody was willing to pay for it,

0:41:530:41:55

and it was even tougher

0:41:550:41:58

cos you knew that there was a venue and you might never hit it.

0:41:580:42:03

But...I don't know what to say by way of encouragement

0:42:030:42:08

except that...do it!

0:42:080:42:10

It's the most wonderful thing in the world -

0:42:100:42:14

to hold it in your hand after you've done it.

0:42:140:42:18

In 1969,

0:42:340:42:36

I started a series of picture stories on veiled women.

0:42:360:42:42

From that came a request from NBC and BBC

0:42:420:42:46

to make a film in harems in Arabia.

0:42:460:42:49

I hadn't made a script.

0:42:570:43:00

I had my storyboard from my stills

0:43:000:43:03

and I figured I'd play it by ear.

0:43:030:43:06

But I couldn't have done it without doing it in stills first.

0:43:060:43:11

First, I thought film was just a series of stills stuck together.

0:43:140:43:19

Then I thought I knew better after I started working on the film.

0:43:190:43:24

I felt like a celibate who'd found sex.

0:43:240:43:27

Here there was sound and motion -

0:43:270:43:30

all the things I'd never had with stills.

0:43:300:43:33

It became a disappointment cos it took so much in material and people and involvement and money.

0:43:330:43:41

Things I didn't have to be concerned about when I was working with stills

0:43:410:43:47

and there was me and some cheap rolls of film, and I was on my own.

0:43:470:43:52

What is more interesting than the film itself,

0:43:520:43:56

is that I could get into a harem.

0:43:560:43:59

I got the co-operation of these people in Dubai

0:43:590:44:03

who invited me to the wedding of the crown prince.

0:44:030:44:06

That meant I could move about and do all sorts of things.

0:44:060:44:11

The Chinawoman goes here.

0:44:110:44:13

Everything else China here is gonna to be those six prints

0:44:130:44:19

plus the three prints.

0:44:190:44:22

-We have no room.

-It'll be crowded.

0:44:220:44:25

-We better start cutting.

-Unless we put a second China over here.

0:44:250:44:30

-So we'll work that way.

-OK, that's good.

0:44:300:44:33

Maybe even a stack.

0:44:330:44:36

Maybe even a stack. Maybe even a stack!

0:44:360:44:40

It looks like Chinese royalty or something.

0:44:400:44:44

I don't know if Chinese royalty wear earrings!

0:44:440:44:47

It's an old Korean woman.

0:44:470:44:50

Um... She appears to be smiling, but she's not smiling at the same time.

0:44:500:44:56

This woman brings wisdom.

0:44:560:44:58

Yeah, I would love to get some wisdom from her.

0:44:580:45:02

Very old. A lot of expression on her face.

0:45:020:45:06

A lot of character. Er...

0:45:060:45:09

A lot of pain, maybe.

0:45:090:45:11

Looking death in the eye.

0:45:110:45:14

It's like looking into a pond.

0:45:140:45:16

Absolutely! I'll buy this one!

0:45:160:45:19

It's absolutely gorgeous! I wish I could take a picture like that!

0:45:190:45:24

She was on the cover of my book in China.

0:45:240:45:29

I had pneumonia when I photographed her.

0:45:290:45:32

The doctors let me out to get some air.

0:45:320:45:36

I was in a boat and I saw her in a doorway and I moved over.

0:45:360:45:41

We looked at each other through the lens.

0:45:410:45:44

That was one shot. How many times does it take normally to get a single shot?

0:45:440:45:51

It was fortuitous.

0:45:510:45:53

She was curious about me.

0:45:530:45:56

My grandchildren think it's me, but I don't have wrinkles in my nose!

0:45:560:46:01

I read about China for 15 years before I got my visa.

0:46:020:46:07

For me, it was a dream realised,

0:46:070:46:10

and it was important for me to look very hard to make sure

0:46:100:46:15

that I credited these people

0:46:150:46:18

with a kind of warmth and humanity

0:46:180:46:21

that I thought they had.

0:46:210:46:24

I wanted to dispel the idea of all those Mao shirts.

0:46:240:46:29

I was very well-prepared for China -

0:46:290:46:32

all that reading, all that thinking, which I abandoned when I got there.

0:46:320:46:38

She's been to China, to Afghanistan, to Arabia, to South Africa,

0:46:380:46:43

all over the United States...

0:46:430:46:46

And that's an enormous body of work

0:46:470:46:50

in an enormously various set of circumstances.

0:46:500:46:54

And she's used black and white, she's used colour.

0:46:540:46:57

She's developed some techniques in colour that at that time were new.

0:46:570:47:03

And I think it's a catholicism - the breadth of vision -

0:47:030:47:07

above all else.

0:47:070:47:09

It is gorgeous!

0:47:420:47:44

-I'm so glad!

-What a beautiful job!

0:47:440:47:47

-<

-Are you...?

0:47:470:47:50

This is Eve Arnold!

0:47:500:47:53

I am SO impressed!

0:47:530:47:55

Thank you!

0:47:550:47:57

-She's an impressive lady!

-Your photographs...!

0:47:570:48:01

You can put yourself in them and feel those feelings!

0:48:010:48:06

What a show!

0:48:060:48:08

I know every one of them. It's just like you came home again!

0:48:080:48:13

I was thinking about you just the other day!

0:48:130:48:17

-Ian!

-Ian Holm!

0:48:170:48:19

How are you?

0:48:240:48:26

I just love your work! I mean like - ohh!

0:48:260:48:30

It gets inside me!

0:48:300:48:32

I think it's a sacrifice to do what I've done.

0:48:320:48:37

I've lost a lot and I've gained a lot.

0:48:370:48:40

The whole business of being on the road, which you are as a journalist,

0:48:400:48:45

takes a great deal.

0:48:450:48:47

I've had less of my son,

0:48:470:48:50

part of the failure of my marriage was due to that...

0:48:500:48:55

But I still have time with my grandchildren. I'm catching up now!

0:48:570:49:02

You've got the family at the end.

0:49:020:49:05

-BRITISH ACCENT:

-'I've always known she was special, I suppose. Special in terms of being famous.'

0:49:050:49:12

I always had her books around the house.

0:49:120:49:18

At the age of about ten or eleven

0:49:180:49:21

I realised that she was special in terms of world-famous photography.

0:49:210:49:28

The most important thing I learned from her

0:49:280:49:31

was that it's important to know how to look at something

0:49:310:49:36

rather than just how to photograph something.

0:49:360:49:40

To be able to see it.

0:49:400:49:42

So was it good?

0:49:440:49:46

It was good. It was really good.

0:49:460:49:49

I was touched because there were a lot of people who came from...

0:49:490:49:55

Somebody from California, my family from Washington...

0:49:550:49:59

Michael and Francis from London!

0:50:000:50:03

It was really good.

0:50:030:50:05

I don't know! I had one woman crying over me!

0:50:050:50:09

She was so touched by the photographs.

0:50:120:50:15

A lot of work,

0:50:150:50:17

a lot of attention to detail,

0:50:170:50:20

a lot of disappointment and a lot of joy.

0:50:200:50:24

And do you feel that this is a summary?

0:50:290:50:32

Yes, it's a milestone.

0:50:320:50:35

I feel if I never pick a camera up, I've done it!

0:50:350:50:39

It's, um...

0:50:390:50:41

It's kind of an assessment...

0:50:410:50:44

of a look back.

0:50:440:50:46

But I don't feel as though I'm living in the past.

0:50:460:50:50

It's just a look for now.

0:50:500:50:53

And I think a sense of wanting to go on with something else.

0:50:530:51:00

Maybe as far away from what I've done as I can get.

0:51:000:51:05

So did you get an A-plus?

0:51:060:51:08

I haven't been graded yet!

0:51:080:51:11

An assessment without the grade, right?!

0:51:110:51:14

Still.

0:51:140:51:16

I spoke to a lot of people tonight who were very moved by the work.

0:51:160:51:21

And seeing it myself tonight, I was pretty moved.

0:51:210:51:25

But you know it so well!

0:51:250:51:28

But it's walking around all those rooms

0:51:280:51:32

and seeing how far, and how many, and who.

0:51:320:51:35

It was a pretty great night!

0:51:350:51:38

It's not over yet - we're gonna have dinner!

0:51:380:51:41

-Let's go!

-Let's go! Onto the bus!

0:51:410:51:44

It's a punishment!

0:51:450:51:48

It's those feet, that's all!

0:51:480:51:51

They say old boxers and old photographers, the feet go first!

0:51:510:51:56

What's going on? You see these...?

0:51:590:52:02

Subtitles by Mark Thomas BBC - 1996

0:52:510:52:56

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