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We first got television in Scotland in 1952. 1952! | 0:00:02 | 0:00:04 | |
That's the year the Queen became, well, Queen, | 0:00:04 | 0:00:07 | |
Prime Minister Winston Churchill scrapped identity cards, | 0:00:07 | 0:00:10 | |
the first ever passenger jet flew across the Atlantic, | 0:00:10 | 0:00:14 | |
the Americans set off the first H... Wait, 1952? | 0:00:14 | 0:00:16 | |
All right, 26 years after Helensburgh boy John Logie Baird | 0:00:16 | 0:00:19 | |
gave television to the world, the world finally gives it back. | 0:00:19 | 0:00:23 | |
Yeah, yeah, that's big of you. Oh, aye, thanks very much. | 0:00:23 | 0:00:26 | |
Here's the first TV mast in Scotland. | 0:00:39 | 0:00:43 | |
Duck and cover guys, you've no idea what's coming your way. | 0:00:43 | 0:00:47 | |
-Mr McCellan, will you be getting television here? -I hope to. | 0:00:49 | 0:00:53 | |
With you away at the fishing, will your wife be listening in? | 0:00:53 | 0:00:58 | |
-Will your wife be listening in? -If she had a set she would. | 0:00:58 | 0:01:01 | |
-Do you have a television set in the house? -No. | 0:01:01 | 0:01:05 | |
-You're not going to get one? -Yes. | 0:01:05 | 0:01:07 | |
-You all going to get one? -No. -Why not? | 0:01:07 | 0:01:11 | |
We haven't got electric light. | 0:01:11 | 0:01:13 | |
Yeah, well, I guess you've got to walk before you can run. | 0:01:13 | 0:01:17 | |
Those kids must be in their 70s now | 0:01:17 | 0:01:19 | |
and television has been with them every step of the way. | 0:01:19 | 0:01:22 | |
Think what they'll have seen - 12 Prime Ministers, 15 World Cups, | 0:01:22 | 0:01:27 | |
the first home computer, the first man on the moon, | 0:01:27 | 0:01:30 | |
the discovery of North Sea Oil and the coming of Devolution. | 0:01:30 | 0:01:33 | |
Tonight we're looking at television journalism, | 0:01:33 | 0:01:36 | |
how television has brought us breaking stories, | 0:01:36 | 0:01:39 | |
uncovered scandals, and just occasionally made things better. | 0:01:39 | 0:01:42 | |
So, hold the front page! | 0:01:42 | 0:01:45 | |
Now when you say journalism, | 0:01:50 | 0:01:53 | |
most people think newspapers, not television. | 0:01:53 | 0:01:56 | |
This is the Glasgow Herald back in the days when journalists needed a cigarette | 0:01:56 | 0:02:00 | |
as much as they needed a notebook. Possibly more. | 0:02:00 | 0:02:04 | |
Tip off from India. | 0:02:04 | 0:02:06 | |
Print journalism had a long and glorious history in Scotland. | 0:02:06 | 0:02:10 | |
As someone once said, | 0:02:11 | 0:02:13 | |
these guys are from the school they tore down to build the old school. | 0:02:13 | 0:02:17 | |
Being in journalism in Scotland wasn't seen as some seedy, | 0:02:18 | 0:02:21 | |
grubby occupation, but was all part of a whole spirit of inquiry, | 0:02:21 | 0:02:26 | |
and calling people to account and more of an egalitarian atmosphere | 0:02:26 | 0:02:31 | |
in Scotland that was all to the good and I think that has served us well. | 0:02:31 | 0:02:35 | |
Television journalism in Scotland benefited from this tradition. | 0:02:35 | 0:02:39 | |
Lots of journalists started off on newspapers and crossed over into TV, | 0:02:39 | 0:02:44 | |
including this gentleman, Fyfe Robertson, | 0:02:44 | 0:02:47 | |
who began his career as a journalist on the Glasgow Herald. | 0:02:47 | 0:02:51 | |
Your clients have changed too, haven't they? | 0:02:51 | 0:02:54 | |
The clients have changed. | 0:02:54 | 0:02:55 | |
Are there still men so wealthy that they can afford | 0:02:55 | 0:02:58 | |
to rent a shooting season simply for their guests? | 0:02:58 | 0:03:02 | |
Very, very few, I would say. | 0:03:02 | 0:03:04 | |
Now Fyfe Robertson had... he had everything! | 0:03:04 | 0:03:08 | |
He was almost like a character from another era. | 0:03:08 | 0:03:11 | |
You imagined him falling from the pages of, kind of, | 0:03:11 | 0:03:14 | |
Robert Louis Stevenson novels. He had this big beard. | 0:03:14 | 0:03:17 | |
He had this tweed gear that he had and all the rest of it. | 0:03:17 | 0:03:21 | |
And he had a wonderful broadcaster's sensibility - | 0:03:21 | 0:03:26 | |
the ability to communicate to people his enthusiasm for the subject he was talking about. | 0:03:26 | 0:03:31 | |
And Fyfe Robertson was probably one of the first, and greatest, Scottish broadcasters. | 0:03:31 | 0:03:37 | |
Even the Land Rover has its limits, but this I'm told can go anywhere. | 0:03:37 | 0:03:42 | |
'He was somebody that made you smile and made you sit back | 0:03:42 | 0:03:45 | |
'and wonder both at the same time.' | 0:03:45 | 0:03:47 | |
Highland Lairds are having a harder time than they used to | 0:03:49 | 0:03:53 | |
so if you've got £1,000 to spare, | 0:03:53 | 0:03:56 | |
why not come up on the 12th for a fortnight grouse shooting? | 0:03:56 | 0:03:59 | |
It's going to be a good 12th they tell me. | 0:03:59 | 0:04:01 | |
And now come on, Mark, you and I'll get home. Stables in half an hour. | 0:04:01 | 0:04:05 | |
That's wicked, That's the coolest thing I've ever seen. | 0:04:09 | 0:04:12 | |
How come Fyfe Roberson gets to do a piece to camera on a horse? I want to do that. Can I do that? | 0:04:12 | 0:04:16 | |
Of course most of the stories TV journalists cover are a lot grimmer than this. | 0:04:17 | 0:04:22 | |
'Helen Puttock, a short, sturdy woman, five feet four in height, | 0:04:22 | 0:04:26 | |
'was wearing an imitation coat over a black sleeveless dress which had gold buttons down the front.' | 0:04:26 | 0:04:32 | |
A year after Helen Puttock was murdered, | 0:04:32 | 0:04:34 | |
the BBC made this documentary following the hunt for her killer. | 0:04:34 | 0:04:37 | |
It was the biggest police murder enquiry there had ever been in Britain. | 0:04:37 | 0:04:41 | |
The Bible John murders are still unsolved. | 0:04:41 | 0:04:44 | |
Police then tried something new, something entirely new in Scotland - | 0:04:44 | 0:04:48 | |
photo fit. | 0:04:48 | 0:04:50 | |
In this system, for example, there are more than 100 types of mouth. | 0:04:50 | 0:04:55 | |
In all there are more than 5,400 million variations | 0:04:55 | 0:04:59 | |
of the human face. | 0:04:59 | 0:05:01 | |
Photo fit came up with this representation. | 0:05:01 | 0:05:05 | |
Well, I was just shown the picture and talking to my wife, | 0:05:05 | 0:05:08 | |
then the wee chap came up and he must have got hold | 0:05:08 | 0:05:11 | |
of the picture, cos he came up and started, "Oh, Daddy, Daddy." | 0:05:11 | 0:05:15 | |
-He thought the identikit picture was you? -Mm-hm. | 0:05:15 | 0:05:19 | |
Quite a job pulling in all the gingers - | 0:05:19 | 0:05:22 | |
that's half of Scotland. | 0:05:22 | 0:05:23 | |
What happened after that after you were finally asked to go to the police station? | 0:05:23 | 0:05:27 | |
The way I was going to take it was, "Where were you | 0:05:27 | 0:05:32 | |
"such and such a night?" That didnae happen. | 0:05:32 | 0:05:34 | |
He was quite good about it, clever about it, and he said, | 0:05:34 | 0:05:37 | |
"Well, I'm satisfied it's no you, | 0:05:37 | 0:05:39 | |
"but you're the best likeness that I've seen." | 0:05:39 | 0:05:42 | |
Steady on! Should they not ask him where he was that night? | 0:05:42 | 0:05:46 | |
I've watched Taggart! | 0:05:46 | 0:05:49 | |
In the '70s, '80s and '90s current affairs programmes | 0:05:55 | 0:05:58 | |
like Current Account, Frontline, Cause For Concern and The Reid Report | 0:05:58 | 0:06:02 | |
brought important Scottish stories to light. | 0:06:02 | 0:06:04 | |
This is a Current Account about glue sniffing. | 0:06:07 | 0:06:09 | |
That's an interesting one there. | 0:06:11 | 0:06:12 | |
Edward, why did you start sniffing glue? | 0:06:12 | 0:06:16 | |
Probably cos all of the friends I had started to. | 0:06:17 | 0:06:21 | |
What's the attraction? | 0:06:22 | 0:06:24 | |
I leathered him | 0:06:30 | 0:06:32 | |
when I heard he was taking it, | 0:06:32 | 0:06:34 | |
and when the police brought him home, | 0:06:34 | 0:06:37 | |
I leathered him again in front of them. | 0:06:37 | 0:06:39 | |
Hmm. No-one seems too worried about the wee boy being battered. | 0:06:39 | 0:06:42 | |
Some things in Scotland have changed for the better. | 0:06:42 | 0:06:45 | |
This is Margo Macdonald's programme about people who were shut up | 0:06:48 | 0:06:52 | |
in mental hospitals for no good reason. It's heartbreaking. | 0:06:52 | 0:06:56 | |
It was, was my dad put me, what put me in there. | 0:06:56 | 0:06:59 | |
Because you were difficult or what? | 0:06:59 | 0:07:02 | |
No, I wasn't difficult, Margo, no. | 0:07:02 | 0:07:06 | |
No, I wouldn't say myself I was. | 0:07:06 | 0:07:09 | |
What age were you? | 0:07:09 | 0:07:11 | |
I was 25 past when I went into Lennox Castle. | 0:07:11 | 0:07:15 | |
No, some nights I wouldn't be home till 12 o'clock, | 0:07:15 | 0:07:20 | |
-or maybe a wee bit after 12... -That's really wicked(!) | 0:07:20 | 0:07:23 | |
..and he'd get really angry at that, you know. | 0:07:23 | 0:07:26 | |
So you were signed in because your father felt you were out | 0:07:28 | 0:07:31 | |
with his control because you came in at that time at night? | 0:07:31 | 0:07:35 | |
Mm-hm. That seemed to be all there was to it. | 0:07:35 | 0:07:38 | |
Ann spent 38 years shut in Lennox Castle. | 0:07:38 | 0:07:41 | |
In 1986 Duncan Campbell was commissioned by the BBC | 0:07:43 | 0:07:46 | |
to make six programmes about Britain's Secret Society. | 0:07:46 | 0:07:50 | |
Duncan Campbell was an investigative journalist who'd already been | 0:07:50 | 0:07:53 | |
prosecuted for breaking the Official Secrets Act on another story, | 0:07:53 | 0:07:57 | |
so the BBC must have been hoping he'd create a stir. | 0:07:57 | 0:08:01 | |
Sometimes you should be careful what you wish for. | 0:08:01 | 0:08:03 | |
'I think that BBC Scotland, at every level,' | 0:08:08 | 0:08:13 | |
and we as Scots, which we all were, | 0:08:13 | 0:08:15 | |
have a sense of our own independence and ability | 0:08:15 | 0:08:20 | |
and need to take a different line from London. | 0:08:20 | 0:08:23 | |
When you're further away from the cauldrons of power in London, | 0:08:24 | 0:08:28 | |
then it's easier to be more radical. | 0:08:28 | 0:08:30 | |
All the data from the east coast radar stations was gathered together | 0:08:32 | 0:08:36 | |
at the Post Office towers in London | 0:08:36 | 0:08:38 | |
and fed through underground telephone cables to West Drayton. | 0:08:38 | 0:08:42 | |
The cables came down this west London street, | 0:08:42 | 0:08:44 | |
but there was one major security flaw - | 0:08:46 | 0:08:49 | |
the cables came underneath this Post Office manhole cover in Bayswater where, | 0:08:49 | 0:08:55 | |
as was later to be drawn to the attention of the Royal Air Force, | 0:08:55 | 0:08:59 | |
they were positioned almost directly underneath the Embassy of the Soviet Union, | 0:08:59 | 0:09:04 | |
vulnerable either to a telephone tapping company | 0:09:04 | 0:09:07 | |
or a swift act of sabotage in time of crisis or war. | 0:09:07 | 0:09:12 | |
The Secret society was an attempt to look at | 0:09:14 | 0:09:17 | |
some of the very hidden areas of Government | 0:09:17 | 0:09:20 | |
and how they undermined democracy because of the secrecy. | 0:09:20 | 0:09:25 | |
This is my favourite bit - when it turns out the Government | 0:09:25 | 0:09:28 | |
is spending gazillions to protect us from low-flying lorries. | 0:09:28 | 0:09:32 | |
'Nimrod failed because its computers didn't work properly. | 0:09:32 | 0:09:35 | |
'The most problem occurred when the radar looked down on Britain itself. | 0:09:35 | 0:09:39 | |
'Suddenly the screen's swarming with activity - | 0:09:42 | 0:09:45 | |
'hundreds of low, slow unidentified targets are all over Britain. | 0:09:45 | 0:09:49 | |
'They veer out to zero feet, speed, 60 to 90 mph. | 0:09:50 | 0:09:54 | |
I always thought Eddie Stobart was a Russian-sounding name. | 0:09:54 | 0:09:58 | |
You can see why Duncan Campbell got up the establishment's nose. | 0:09:59 | 0:10:03 | |
He's brilliant! | 0:10:03 | 0:10:04 | |
But his sixth programme was where the trouble really started. | 0:10:04 | 0:10:07 | |
The Zircon Affair was about the secret funding of Britain's spy satellite. | 0:10:07 | 0:10:10 | |
That's not secret as in secret from the Russians, | 0:10:10 | 0:10:13 | |
or even secret from the man in the street, | 0:10:13 | 0:10:16 | |
but secret from the parliamentary committee that's supposed to sign off on big spending on spy stuff! | 0:10:16 | 0:10:21 | |
'Britain's first ever spy satellite will be soon be going into space. | 0:10:24 | 0:10:28 | |
'The new British spy satellite has been a bigger secret than the nuclear programme. | 0:10:32 | 0:10:37 | |
'Until today, few people have been aloud to know its special codename, | 0:10:37 | 0:10:41 | |
-'Zircon.' -It's all very Thunderbirds are go. | 0:10:41 | 0:10:44 | |
Satellites are very, very expensive. | 0:10:47 | 0:10:49 | |
British intelligence simply can't afford a price tag like that | 0:10:49 | 0:10:55 | |
on its own, so the bill for Zircon has been secretly passed over here, | 0:10:55 | 0:11:00 | |
to the Ministry of Defence. | 0:11:00 | 0:11:03 | |
I've been told by those who worked here | 0:11:03 | 0:11:05 | |
that Zircon will cost around 5% of what the Trident nuclear programme is costing - | 0:11:05 | 0:11:10 | |
that's between £400 and £500 million. | 0:11:10 | 0:11:15 | |
One of the problems we had with this incredibly sensitive subject | 0:11:15 | 0:11:19 | |
was that we had no documents, | 0:11:19 | 0:11:21 | |
we had sources, but we couldn't possibly refer to them | 0:11:21 | 0:11:25 | |
given the vulnerability and the sensitivity, so how do you, apart from trust, | 0:11:25 | 0:11:29 | |
tell people this is a real story and we haven't made it all up? | 0:11:29 | 0:11:36 | |
What we did was to arrange an interview with the retired | 0:11:36 | 0:11:39 | |
Chief Scientific Adviser to the Ministry of Defence. | 0:11:39 | 0:11:43 | |
We didn't pre-warn him that we were going to ask him about THE satellite, | 0:11:43 | 0:11:47 | |
that he would be hearing a name that no-one was supposed to know. | 0:11:47 | 0:11:50 | |
What difference to the situation for Britain and NATO | 0:11:50 | 0:11:53 | |
will be made by the Zircon satellite? | 0:11:53 | 0:11:57 | |
I can't talk to you about that, I'm afraid. | 0:12:01 | 0:12:03 | |
You're saying that everything about Zircon is classified? | 0:12:03 | 0:12:07 | |
Yes, I'm sorry about that. | 0:12:07 | 0:12:09 | |
'It's an extraordinary visual moment in documentary television' | 0:12:09 | 0:12:12 | |
to a watching audience, the point at which you saw his jaw drop, | 0:12:12 | 0:12:17 | |
knowing who he was, "I can't talk about that", | 0:12:17 | 0:12:21 | |
means, "the story is spot on, "we're exactly right, it exists," | 0:12:21 | 0:12:26 | |
I'm watching the rest of the programme. | 0:12:26 | 0:12:30 | |
Under pressure from the government, the BBC shelved the programme. | 0:12:30 | 0:12:34 | |
By the weekend of 24th January, | 0:12:36 | 0:12:38 | |
Special Branch showed headquarters up here at the BBC in Queen Margaret Drive | 0:12:38 | 0:12:42 | |
and raided the place, looking for evidence of a breach of the Official Secrets Act. | 0:12:42 | 0:12:47 | |
In the end, neither the BBC nor Duncan Campbell were prosecuted, | 0:12:47 | 0:12:50 | |
but it was two years before the Zircon programme was shown, | 0:12:50 | 0:12:53 | |
and another episode, about Secret Cabinet committees, has still never been seen. | 0:12:53 | 0:12:58 | |
Good evening. For the first time in 40 years, a director general of the BBC has resigned his post. | 0:13:03 | 0:13:08 | |
Alistair Milne left the corporation at lunchtime today. | 0:13:08 | 0:13:12 | |
The Zircon affair became the Governor's excuse | 0:13:12 | 0:13:16 | |
for summarily dismissing Mr Milne. | 0:13:16 | 0:13:19 | |
Which very much satisfied the government until the next incumbency | 0:13:20 | 0:13:24 | |
proved to be just about as troublesome. | 0:13:24 | 0:13:27 | |
As they should have been. | 0:13:27 | 0:13:30 | |
When something terrible happens in the world today | 0:13:30 | 0:13:32 | |
we might go online, but back in the '80s and '90s, | 0:13:32 | 0:13:35 | |
we relied on television to tell us what was happening. | 0:13:35 | 0:13:38 | |
Huge disasters took us to our televisions, | 0:13:38 | 0:13:40 | |
waiting on the latest pictures, the latest news. | 0:13:40 | 0:13:44 | |
Between 1988 and 1996 | 0:13:44 | 0:13:46 | |
three events gripped the Scottish audience, and beyond them, the world - | 0:13:46 | 0:13:50 | |
Piper Alpha, Lockerbie and Dunblane. | 0:13:50 | 0:13:53 | |
'Since we've come on the air reports have started to come through' | 0:13:55 | 0:13:58 | |
of a major rescue in the North Sea. | 0:13:58 | 0:14:01 | |
It seems there has been a fire and explosion on an oil rig | 0:14:01 | 0:14:04 | |
with 200 men on board and a major rescue operation is now underway. | 0:14:04 | 0:14:09 | |
The Piper Alpha rig, owned by the Occidental... | 0:14:09 | 0:14:12 | |
'This was right at the beginning of live news broadcasting.' | 0:14:12 | 0:14:16 | |
We weren't used to being on air live, | 0:14:16 | 0:14:19 | |
we weren't used to round-the-clock coverage of tragedies like that. | 0:14:19 | 0:14:23 | |
But I hope that on the line now is our reporter Jane Frankie, | 0:14:23 | 0:14:27 | |
-from Aberdeen. Jane, can you hear me? -'Yes, Donald, I can.' | 0:14:27 | 0:14:32 | |
You normally go into a community, | 0:14:32 | 0:14:35 | |
you normally go to the scene of the disaster, and in this case | 0:14:35 | 0:14:39 | |
the scene of the disaster was hundreds of miles offshore in the North Sea. | 0:14:39 | 0:14:45 | |
So the focus for our reporting | 0:14:45 | 0:14:48 | |
was the hospital in Aberdeen where some of the casualties were taken. | 0:14:48 | 0:14:53 | |
'Aberdeen Royal Infirmary early this morning as helicopters landed with the first of the survivors.' | 0:14:54 | 0:15:00 | |
And then at one particular moment in the story, it became obvious | 0:15:01 | 0:15:05 | |
that the people in the hospital could be stood down because | 0:15:05 | 0:15:08 | |
there were not going to be any casualties, because 167 people had died. | 0:15:08 | 0:15:13 | |
It was the newsroom Christmas party | 0:15:20 | 0:15:21 | |
when we heard about the Lockerbie disaster and everyone was merry | 0:15:21 | 0:15:25 | |
and I know a number of people were going on to another party. | 0:15:25 | 0:15:28 | |
The word came through on the news desk that this terrible accident, | 0:15:28 | 0:15:31 | |
as we thought, a plane had come down at Lockerbie | 0:15:31 | 0:15:34 | |
and I remember that the controller was still in the building | 0:15:34 | 0:15:37 | |
and he just gave us the car and actually I went straightaway. | 0:15:37 | 0:15:43 | |
The one thing that will always stay with me is how eerily quiet it was. | 0:15:43 | 0:15:48 | |
At moments like these, television has a big responsibility. | 0:15:53 | 0:15:57 | |
This is as near to the reality as most of us will come. | 0:15:58 | 0:16:03 | |
These are the pictures we will remember. | 0:16:03 | 0:16:06 | |
There was a sense right from the beginning that Lockerbie | 0:16:09 | 0:16:11 | |
would never, ever be the same again, and that the name of Lockerbie | 0:16:11 | 0:16:15 | |
would be forever changed because of this dreadful, dreadful atrocity. | 0:16:15 | 0:16:19 | |
Lockerbie came to a complete standstill this afternoon. | 0:16:19 | 0:16:23 | |
The heartbreak caused by Britain's worst air disaster was | 0:16:23 | 0:16:25 | |
there for all to see. | 0:16:25 | 0:16:27 | |
Those that had lost their loved ones, their neighbours, | 0:16:27 | 0:16:30 | |
their friends, were united in grief. | 0:16:30 | 0:16:32 | |
In a sense, if you look at the other events, oil rigs do blow up, | 0:16:33 | 0:16:41 | |
and planes do crash out of the sky, but children don't get shot | 0:16:41 | 0:16:48 | |
in primary schools in Scotland. | 0:16:48 | 0:16:50 | |
That was the difference with this story - people found it really, really hard to believe. | 0:16:50 | 0:16:57 | |
For Dunblane's primary one pupils, Wednesday March 13th started just like any other day. | 0:16:57 | 0:17:03 | |
16 of them never got home, | 0:17:03 | 0:17:06 | |
murdered at the hands of a gunman who then killed himself. | 0:17:06 | 0:17:09 | |
As parents gathered on hearing the news, reports emerged from the school of carnage in the gym | 0:17:12 | 0:17:17 | |
where the primary ones had gathered for the first class of the day. | 0:17:17 | 0:17:21 | |
We had one reporter whose son was supposed to go | 0:17:22 | 0:17:27 | |
to the school at Dunblane that afternoon for his familiarisation | 0:17:27 | 0:17:30 | |
before attending the primary school the following year, | 0:17:30 | 0:17:33 | |
so this wasn't a case of people going off to a foreign country | 0:17:33 | 0:17:37 | |
and covering a disaster there, | 0:17:37 | 0:17:39 | |
this was a story that was right in the heart of the journalistic community who were covering it. | 0:17:39 | 0:17:44 | |
After a few days of covering this story, there was certainly | 0:17:46 | 0:17:52 | |
a view in the newsroom that something should be done | 0:17:52 | 0:17:57 | |
to leave the people of Dunblane alone to grieve in peace | 0:17:57 | 0:18:01 | |
and to allow the funerals to take place without media intrusion. | 0:18:01 | 0:18:07 | |
Usually, television journalism tells you about the world as it is. | 0:18:18 | 0:18:22 | |
But all investigative journalists hope that finding out | 0:18:22 | 0:18:25 | |
the truth might help change things for the better. | 0:18:25 | 0:18:28 | |
And sometimes it does. | 0:18:28 | 0:18:30 | |
In 1987, STV made two brilliant documentaries about Nazi war crimes. | 0:18:30 | 0:18:34 | |
They're a great watch, they uncovered a story that most people didn't know | 0:18:34 | 0:18:39 | |
AND they forced the British government to change the law. | 0:18:39 | 0:18:43 | |
The man who discovered that Gecas was alive and well | 0:18:43 | 0:18:46 | |
and living in Edinburgh | 0:18:46 | 0:18:48 | |
is top American Nazi war crimes prosecutor Eli Rosenbaum. | 0:18:48 | 0:18:52 | |
He accuses successive British governments of providing sanctuary for Nazi war criminals | 0:18:52 | 0:18:56 | |
through a secret policy agreed in 1948. | 0:18:56 | 0:19:01 | |
The fact that these crimes had been covered up | 0:19:01 | 0:19:02 | |
by the British government, I just felt, was disgusting. | 0:19:02 | 0:19:06 | |
How could my government have done this? Great Britain, Rule Britannia, were covering up Nazi war criminals. | 0:19:06 | 0:19:12 | |
Mr Gecas is accused of mass murder. he lives in Edinburgh, | 0:19:12 | 0:19:19 | |
He is a mining engineer and we have the documentation. | 0:19:19 | 0:19:24 | |
Bob Tomlinson went to interview Gekas in his Edinburgh home. | 0:19:24 | 0:19:30 | |
We watched the house until some lights went on, then we thought, "Right, we'll move now." | 0:19:30 | 0:19:35 | |
I had some coins... I put some coins in a handkerchief. | 0:19:35 | 0:19:41 | |
It looked as if I was cold. It was a sort of... It wasn't a nasty trick, but I suppose it was. | 0:19:41 | 0:19:49 | |
I pulled it out as if I was going to blow my nose and let the coins fall in the house. | 0:19:49 | 0:19:55 | |
One thing that people will never stop you doing in Scotland | 0:19:55 | 0:19:57 | |
is pick up your own money, | 0:19:57 | 0:19:59 | |
so the money was in the house and that therefore meant | 0:19:59 | 0:20:01 | |
I was in the house and there was your man standing right in front of me. | 0:20:01 | 0:20:05 | |
Were you aware that in protecting the Germans, | 0:20:05 | 0:20:09 | |
you were helping them shoot and murder innocent people? | 0:20:09 | 0:20:14 | |
Yes, I was aware, but what could we do about it? | 0:20:14 | 0:20:18 | |
That was a war. | 0:20:19 | 0:20:21 | |
The shootings go inside when you start. They go into a forest or a village. | 0:20:21 | 0:20:28 | |
Start shootings? No, you don't know what's happening. | 0:20:28 | 0:20:33 | |
I had to find out how many people actually did Gecas kill. | 0:20:33 | 0:20:36 | |
And Gecas... The lowest number I could get that | 0:20:37 | 0:20:41 | |
Gecas had been directly involved in the murders of, | 0:20:41 | 0:20:44 | |
was 34,143 people. | 0:20:44 | 0:20:47 | |
TRANSLATION: The people were usually standing in the pits. | 0:20:47 | 0:20:51 | |
They stood in rows and the soldiers would shoot into their backs. | 0:20:51 | 0:20:54 | |
BELL TOLLS | 0:20:56 | 0:20:57 | |
TRANSLATION: I recognised my husband by his clothes. | 0:21:01 | 0:21:04 | |
How else could I have recognised him? | 0:21:04 | 0:21:06 | |
His face was covered in blood and he was all holes and blood. | 0:21:06 | 0:21:10 | |
BELL TOLLS | 0:21:10 | 0:21:13 | |
TRANSLATION: He used his pistol, which he took out from his holster | 0:21:16 | 0:21:19 | |
and finished off the victims who were still alive. | 0:21:19 | 0:21:22 | |
BELL TOLLS | 0:21:22 | 0:21:24 | |
Bob Tomlinson's documentary put pressure on the government, | 0:21:24 | 0:21:27 | |
and in 1991 they passed the War Crimes Bill. | 0:21:27 | 0:21:31 | |
This means British courts can try Nazi criminals. | 0:21:31 | 0:21:34 | |
Astonishingly, only one case has been successfully tried | 0:21:34 | 0:21:38 | |
under the act and Gecas himself was never brought to court. | 0:21:38 | 0:21:43 | |
He died in Edinburgh, peacefully, being cared for by the National Health Service, | 0:21:43 | 0:21:47 | |
unlike the 34,143 people he murdered in cold blood, many of whom were children. | 0:21:47 | 0:21:54 | |
So far we've been talking about investigative journalism, and news. | 0:21:54 | 0:21:59 | |
But there's a lot of great political journalists in Scotland. | 0:21:59 | 0:22:02 | |
The best known is probably this one. | 0:22:02 | 0:22:04 | |
We couldn't make this programme without showing you a clip of her finest hour. | 0:22:04 | 0:22:10 | |
Prime Minister, you have always said you didn't enter politics in order to be popular, but why are you | 0:22:10 | 0:22:16 | |
so unpopular in Scotland? | 0:22:16 | 0:22:18 | |
I don't think I'm necessarily the right person to answer that, | 0:22:18 | 0:22:22 | |
but I wouldn't say it's entirely true. | 0:22:22 | 0:22:24 | |
Whenever I'm here people say, "Come back soon come back more often." | 0:22:24 | 0:22:28 | |
Last evening we had a marvellous reception | 0:22:28 | 0:22:30 | |
and a very large dinner so I wouldn't necessarily accept that. | 0:22:30 | 0:22:33 | |
Bernard Ingham tried to stop this interview happening. | 0:22:33 | 0:22:38 | |
He said he wouldn't let the Prime Minister be questioned by a woman. | 0:22:38 | 0:22:41 | |
The BBC hung tough and said it's Kirsty or nothing. | 0:22:41 | 0:22:46 | |
She was obviously deeply angry at having to do an interview | 0:22:46 | 0:22:49 | |
with me and not a man, deeply angry. | 0:22:49 | 0:22:51 | |
I think she felt it was something | 0:22:53 | 0:22:55 | |
she wasn't comfortable about doing, but she knew she had to do it. | 0:22:55 | 0:22:58 | |
The growth is coming up fast | 0:22:58 | 0:23:02 | |
and it looks as if from the latest figures as if we in Scotland | 0:23:02 | 0:23:07 | |
are going to have higher growth than the people further south. | 0:23:07 | 0:23:11 | |
She started talking about, "We in Scotland". | 0:23:11 | 0:23:14 | |
The first time she said it I thought, "That's a bit odd," | 0:23:14 | 0:23:18 | |
cos I knew she was desperate to reconnect. | 0:23:18 | 0:23:21 | |
We in Scotland hadn't quite had | 0:23:21 | 0:23:25 | |
the full benefit of the increasing number of jobs there were, | 0:23:25 | 0:23:31 | |
it seemed more difficult to get it for us here. | 0:23:31 | 0:23:34 | |
We had brainstormed the interview, so from that point of view I was keyed up, but I'd done my homework. | 0:23:34 | 0:23:40 | |
But also very few people knew - just my husband Alan and I knew - I was pregnant. | 0:23:40 | 0:23:47 | |
I was determined that I was not going to get really upset | 0:23:47 | 0:23:50 | |
by doing this interview because it was more important to be calm | 0:23:50 | 0:23:53 | |
for my future child than it was to be calm for the Prime Minister. | 0:23:53 | 0:23:58 | |
Your own backbenchers are saying that the community charge is | 0:23:58 | 0:24:02 | |
a political cyanide pill and it will cause deep hatred and division. | 0:24:02 | 0:24:06 | |
These are your own backbenchers. | 0:24:06 | 0:24:08 | |
I have never heard the expression you have used before. | 0:24:08 | 0:24:11 | |
-Tony Marlow and Hugh Dykes respectively. -Er... | 0:24:11 | 0:24:14 | |
I did not hear what was said at the 22 committee, | 0:24:16 | 0:24:19 | |
but if that is so, I don't believe that their judgment is correct. | 0:24:19 | 0:24:24 | |
I remember the interview finished, and she just... | 0:24:24 | 0:24:28 | |
"You interrupted me too much, that was terrible...da, da, da..." | 0:24:28 | 0:24:32 | |
I could see Malcolm Rifkind going, "Oh, dear, dear, | 0:24:32 | 0:24:34 | |
"this is just not going well at all." He sort of backed off. | 0:24:34 | 0:24:39 | |
Even Michael Forsyth... Her response was disproportionate to the event. | 0:24:39 | 0:24:43 | |
It had not been a comfortable interview for her. | 0:24:43 | 0:24:48 | |
The biggest political issue facing Scotland in the last quarter of the 20th century was Devolution. | 0:24:50 | 0:24:56 | |
In 1979, only 40% of us voted for it - by 1997, it was 74%. | 0:24:56 | 0:25:03 | |
That's a increase of... It's a huge change. | 0:25:03 | 0:25:08 | |
OK, so 18 years of Thatcherism might have had something | 0:25:08 | 0:25:11 | |
to do with it, but so did programmes like this. | 0:25:11 | 0:25:13 | |
The notion that Scotland gets more than it's fair share | 0:25:13 | 0:25:16 | |
of public spending in fact is nothing but a myth, | 0:25:16 | 0:25:20 | |
but it's one that is widely held particularly in | 0:25:20 | 0:25:22 | |
the south of England. What this programme sets out to explode that | 0:25:22 | 0:25:26 | |
myth by revealing that when it comes to guzzling the taxpayers' cash, | 0:25:26 | 0:25:30 | |
no-one does it better than London and the South East. | 0:25:30 | 0:25:33 | |
The public reaction was one of amazement. | 0:25:34 | 0:25:36 | |
The political reaction was almost like a battle charge | 0:25:36 | 0:25:40 | |
back across the border to say, "See! | 0:25:40 | 0:25:42 | |
"It's not the way you said it was." | 0:25:42 | 0:25:44 | |
This fixation with London produces some absurd situations. | 0:25:44 | 0:25:49 | |
The Department for Energy, for example, supervises Britain's | 0:25:49 | 0:25:52 | |
vital North Sea oil industries, but 856 of its 1,036 civil servants | 0:25:52 | 0:25:59 | |
are based in the West End of London. There are only 23 in Aberdeen... | 0:25:59 | 0:26:03 | |
the oil capital of Europe. | 0:26:03 | 0:26:05 | |
The programme is as resonant today as it was all those years ago. | 0:26:05 | 0:26:10 | |
We're still getting the same arguments, aren't we? | 0:26:10 | 0:26:14 | |
In recent years, new technology has given television journalists | 0:26:15 | 0:26:19 | |
another way of uncovering important stories. | 0:26:19 | 0:26:22 | |
Our second undercover researcher, Arifa Farooq, is in Glasgow where | 0:26:23 | 0:26:27 | |
our research is leading us to one of Scotland largest care providers. | 0:26:27 | 0:26:32 | |
BBC Scotland's Investigation Unit used tiny hidden cameras | 0:26:32 | 0:26:36 | |
and undercover reporters to expose mistreatment of the elderly. | 0:26:36 | 0:26:40 | |
Arifa knows there's something wrong in a client's house by the smell | 0:26:40 | 0:26:44 | |
as she enters the front door. | 0:26:44 | 0:26:46 | |
I have just found excrement all over | 0:26:46 | 0:26:49 | |
her floor and it seems to have been there for some time now - it seems hard and dried in. | 0:26:49 | 0:26:57 | |
It seems as though no-one has bothered to clean it up. | 0:26:57 | 0:27:03 | |
It is so disgusting. | 0:27:03 | 0:27:07 | |
The purpose of investigative journalism is to shed light in places | 0:27:07 | 0:27:11 | |
that people don't want light to be shed and bring about change. | 0:27:11 | 0:27:16 | |
And that kind of investigative journalism did it. | 0:27:16 | 0:27:19 | |
Andy allowed the BBC to fit hidden cameras throughout his house | 0:27:19 | 0:27:23 | |
so he knows he's being filmed here, but his carer doesn't. | 0:27:23 | 0:27:26 | |
He's unsure whether she's talking to him or down the phone. | 0:27:33 | 0:27:36 | |
This kind of programme making is absolutely vital for the BBC | 0:27:38 | 0:27:44 | |
to do and absolutely vital for wider society. | 0:27:44 | 0:27:48 | |
We need to keep poking our noses in, we need to keep exposing wrongdoing. | 0:27:48 | 0:27:54 | |
I wouldn't normally make any great claims about TV making | 0:27:59 | 0:28:04 | |
the world a better place. | 0:28:04 | 0:28:05 | |
But some of the stuff we've seen tonight - calling war criminals to account, | 0:28:05 | 0:28:10 | |
exposing secret deals between MI5 and the Ministry of Defence, telling us fast and accurately | 0:28:10 | 0:28:15 | |
about the big news stories, keeping tabs on the people who govern us - | 0:28:15 | 0:28:19 | |
well, it matters, and we're a better country for it. | 0:28:19 | 0:28:23 | |
Walk on. | 0:28:23 | 0:28:24 | |
Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd | 0:28:45 | 0:28:47 |