Can Criminals Say Sorry?

Can it ever be a good idea for victims and offenders to meet?

I wanted to see him

because I needed to tell him how I felt.

Restorative justice,

a process that brings victims and offenders together.

He said that he was going to shoot me.

I am genuinely sorry for what I did to you

and I shouldn't have done it.

Victims can tell it how it is.

As long as he heard what I was going to say, that was all I needed.

I needed him to know what he'd done to me.

And it's being used for a range of offences

from antisocial behaviour through to the most serious crimes.

I walked towards him, shook his hand,

that same hand that killed Malcolm.

Now the Government has announced

?29 million has been made available for restorative justice.

As long as I've got a breath in my body

I will always promote restorative justice.

I'm Brooke Kinsella

and my 16-year-old brother was killed by knife crime six years ago.

He was almost like my Big Brother sometimes

because he would be quite protective. He was my best friend.

I'm going to explore the impact

of this form of face-to-face justice.

I thought, half an hour in, this isn't working,

and they walked out talking to each other.

It was like a Disney film!

And I'm going on a journey

to find out whether meeting my brother's killers

could ever be right for me.

I just know personally you need somebody to blame sometimes

and to hold on to that blame and anger maybe,

so to come face to face,

I don't know how that would affect somebody.

I'm probably best known for playing Kelly in EastEnders.

You're always going to get what you want.

So why don't you just do what you want, all right? Kel...

Just leave me alone for a bit.

'Acting was my full-time job

'until June 29th 2008.'

A teenager has died after being stabbed in central London.

Scotland Yard have named him as Ben Kinsella...

'My 16-year-old brother Ben

'was killed by three teenagers

'not far from where we live in Islington.'

There had been a fight that broke out

in the pub that Ben was in that night,

it had absolutely nothing to do with him.

Three of those involved in the fight then took to the street.

They were basically just looking for anybody.

They felt that they'd been disrespected,

they couldn't find the boys

that had been involved in the original fight,

so they started chasing after a group of boys on the street

that were making their way home

and one of them was my brother,

and he unfortunately was the one at the back

that didn't run as fast as the others and they got him.

Ben was picked up on CCTV after the attack.

He'd been stabbed 11 times.

Initially he was able to walk away,

but his injuries were fatal.

We lost him a few hours later in hospital.

Welcome to the Ben Kinsella Exhibition,

and this is called the Ben Room.

'My family set up an anti-knife crime exhibition and charity

'in Ben's memory.'

My family want to make sure

that nobody else's brother is ever taken away from them.

'I want to help reduce the numbers of victims.

'I've spent the last five years campaigning against knife crime.'

Two young kids, they got beat up and they were also murdered.

It literally destroys you,

you know, we didn't just lose Ben that night,

I lost my mum and dad, technically, my sisters,

because none of us will ever be the same again.

But I'm also keen to find ways

to give victims more of a voice in the justice system.

I still think my family have not probably accepted it

or come to terms with it, I don't think we ever will.

Three youths have been jailed for life for the murder of Ben Kinsella.

We'd like it to be longer.

Life should have been life. Life should have been life.

'Jade Braithwaite, Michael Alleyne and Juress Kika

'were given 19 years each for murdering Ben.'

So now I'm going to start a journey to explore a form of justice

that's being used more and more,

where victims meet face to face with their offenders.

It's called restorative justice.

It's used for a range of offences

from antisocial behaviour all the way up to murder.

It can be used in prison after conviction,

but also as an alternative

to sending offenders to court in the first place.

It's going to be a pretty tough journey for me, I think.

Because I'm coming at it with a slightly biased angle, obviously,

you know, having lost my brother,

my family then campaigned strongly for tougher sentences.

I think restorative justice can seem like a soft option

and I'm not sure that it's right for me.

Asking myself that question - could I ever come face to face

with the three men that killed my brother?

Right now that's a no, I can't see that changing, to be honest.

But it's a journey that I think is really important.

I think restorative justice is being used a lot more.

This is what interests me, I want to go out there

and find out, right, exactly what is restorative justice,

what forms does it take, can it work?

My first step is to go and see a woman

whose son was recently killed in a tragic accident.

Amazingly, she decided to meet the person in prison

responsible for her son's death.

On the night of August 30th 2012,

19-year-old friends Marc Lutman and Ian Deer

had been out partying and drinking.

Despite being twice over the limit,

Marc got behind the wheel of his dad's car.

Shortly after, he crashed.

Ian died at the scene.

Marc survived with minor injuries.

I just know, personally, you need somebody to blame sometimes,

so to kind of come face to face

and hear some answers that you don't really want to hear

and find yourself

possibly forgiving the person who took away your loved one, erm...

I don't know how that would affect somebody.

It could bring a great deal of closure,

however I think sometimes you do need to hold on to that anger

just to get through the day.

Hi, Christine. Hi. I'm Brooke. Lovely to meet you.

'Christine Deer is Ian's mum.

'18 months on, she's still struggling with her loss.'

I've got five children.

Ian's my fourth child.

Two boys and three girls,

he's my second son.

He was 19 when he had his accident.

It's almost impossible to put into words

kind of...what this does to your life

just to lose a member of your family,

but what have the past 18 months been like for you and your family?

It's...

I do not know. You get by because you have to.

You have to carry on. I've got other children.

You've got a life to lead and you have to get on with it,

but it is pretty devastating, as you must know.

And so was Marc eventually charged?

He was charged.

He did admit to it,

he's always said that he was guilty,

he's always accepted responsibility over what happened.

At court the judge said this was a case of youthful folly

and that Ian had contributed to the crash

with some of his actions that night.

Marc was sentenced to 40 months in prison.

Christine had met Marc only once before

when she was phoned by Victim Support

and asked if she'd like restorative justice.

Last October she met Marc in Lincoln prison

three months after he was sentenced.

Christine knew what she wanted from the meeting

and they spoke for nearly an hour.

I needed to do it as a mum

and be caring towards him,

how I would want Ian to be treated...

Do you know what I mean? Yes.

I wanted there to be some respect

and I've always tried to treat Marc

as I would have wanted Ian to be treated

if it was the other way round.

Have you ever felt any anger?

No, I've never, ever felt any anger towards them,

I don't feel that way.

I know he was responsible...

..but I don't blame him for what happened.

What do you think he's taken away from that?

Marc is the same as me in that he needed to tell me that he was sorry

and I think he sort of needs to tell me that...

I know he'd never do anything like that again.

It was just one of those things that happened, he's learned his lesson.

Doing the restorative justice thing, it is a positive thing,

it's something he needed to do.

Restorative justice has given Christine

a new connection through Marc to her son.

I want him to remember Ian as a friend and...

..just for him to be a friend,

and not for Ian to be bad memories for him, to be fun.

He's told me stories I didn't know,

stupid things about Ian that I never knew about.

Yeah, I love hearing those new stories. I know.

I'm like, "I didn't know that happened." And that's really nice.

It was so moving

to meet Christine and hear her story.

I mean, she's just the most incredible, inspirational lady.

To have the compassion that she has and the bravery and...

the want to do restorative justice,

not for herself, really, but for Marc,

to enable him to move on with his life, is incredible.

And I don't think there's many people out there

that could bring themselves to be that compassionate.

Even though it was an accident,

I can't imagine doing what Christine has done

and sit down with the person responsible.

I've also realised

restorative justice is not just about saying sorry,

there are complex personal reasons

for wanting to meet an offender face to face.

Restorative justice, sometimes called RJ,

was first used by a few police forces in Britain

nearly 20 years ago

to deal with petty criminals.

I've come to meet the Assistant Chief Constable

of Greater Manchester Police,

who takes the national lead on restorative justice.

Restorative justice is that process

whereby somebody who's had harm caused to them

has the opportunity to sit down across a table and meet the harmer

and, through a conversation,

understand why that person committed the crime

and why they harmed them.

And the offender is having to confront the consequences,

the personal consequences of what they've done.

Government-funded research into restorative justice

claims RJ has 85% victim satisfaction

and reduces reoffending rates by 14%.

Our aim is, within the next two to three years,

to see universal coverage across the UK

where victims of crime, if they want to meet the offender,

and where they want to take part in restorative justice,

have the opportunity to do that.

Now the Government is making up to ?29 million available

over the next three years for restorative justice.

This is the Crowhill estate in Greater Manchester.

On a snowy evening in February, a group of teenagers

target an elderly couple's home with snowballs.

At one point one of the residents comes out,

but the boys carry on pelting the house for almost ten more minutes.

The family that suffered from antisocial behaviour

puts their CCTV footage of the incident on YouTube.

It prompts immediate action.

'PC Mark Casey of Greater Manchester Police

'meets a local housing officer, Phil.'

This is the list of the perpetrators.

I'm after an address for him.

'They want to use restorative justice, or RJ,

'as an alternative to prosecuting the boys responsible.

'But first they need to track them down.'

That's him. Daniel.

All the boys have been identified

and the first one has been called in.

Restorative justice is going ahead

with the consent of the elderly victims,

even though they don't want to attend.

The police will represent their point of view.

I've come to see what happens.

Hi, thanks for coming. Hiya.

'Daniel is 15 and arrives with his mum.'

So we've got Daniel and Marie, mum.

There was an incident a week last Tuesday.

Your name has been mentioned as one of the offenders

and what we've decided to do,

with your consent, is deal with it by restorative justice.

When RJ is used as an alternative to the court system,

it means the offender won't get a criminal record,

but Daniel's told it's a one-off.

So if you're involved in any antisocial behaviour

or public order offences,

you could be arrested now. You won't be dealt with like this again.

It's more of a softly-softly approach.

But the thing is, I don't want to criminalise you,

I don't want you to have a criminal record.

But Daniel denies any involvement.

Did you throw any? No. Are you sure?

Yeah, I was just stood there, talking.

Are you saying you didn't throw any directly?

Were you involved in that?

No. You could have gone in the house. Or you could have walked away.

And the reason you're here

is because you were part of that group, do you understand that?

The key to RJ is the offender understanding

the impact of their actions.

How do you think they would have been affected,

these people who live there?

They would have been scared.

Is that how you'd have felt if you were at home? Yeah.

Yeah, group of people outside my house, terrorising me,

I'd feel scared.

So that's the word you've used, terrorising. Yeah, it were.

With the victims not present, PC Mark reads their statement.

"We as a family are very, very annoyed about this incident.

"We just want to keep ourselves to ourselves.

"They have dragged us into this incident and baited us

"into going outside.

"We as a family will support the Police and New Charter Housing

"in any action they wish to take against these youths."

Mark and Phil want to be sure Daniel is showing remorse for his actions.

I want to know how you'd feel

if someone was doing it to your grandma.

How would you feel?

I'd feel angry, annoyed...

and I wouldn't like it.

That's good, that's great.

What do you think we can do to rectify what's gone wrong here?

I'll go and apologise.

Do you think that would be a good idea? Yeah. I do.

Thank you very much for your time, and I'll be in touch next week.

Thank you very much.

So for you guys, was that the outcome that you wanted?

Exactly, really. Are you in agreement, Phil?

I certainly think so. There was an apology there

and he even agreed to go and see the victim and apologise as well.

Saying sorry isn't always that difficult.

I'm wondering, could it be an easy way out?

At the moment, I think today has had a really positive outcome.

However, how long that's going to last, I don't know.

We will know the powers of restorative justice

in the coming weeks and months if an incident like this doesn't reoccur.

Greater Manchester Police say they used restorative justice

in more than 7,000 cases last year.

That means a lot of offenders have been diverted away

from the criminal justice system.

I hear quite a lot that it helps to not criminalise the offender.

When I hear those words or when the general public hears those words,

you can see how restorative justice can be seen as a soft option, maybe.

It's letting them get away with the crime they've committed.

People who commit the worst offences have to go to prison.

They are serving their sentence, paying their dues

and most importantly,

they are being punished for the crimes they've committed.

But we know when somebody who commits crime at a young age,

once they are labelled as a criminal and they're charged

and go through a court process and have a criminal record,

they are more likely to offend again and again and again.

Restorative justice gives an opportunity

to break that cycle and most importantly,

it allows the victim to be in control of that process.

It's 7.30am at Ashton-under-Lyne police station

in Greater Manchester.

Hot Crime. This is the hot crime tonight.

There's nothing going on since yesterday.

The morning briefing updates officers on overnight crimes.

It's not just antisocial behaviour

that gets dealt with by restorative justice.

What have we got today?

Got an early arrest in Audenshaw.

Most of the officers in the force are trained in RJ.

This is CCTV in relation to an assault that's been reported to us.

PC Faye Parker is investigating an incident

involving two women at a pub, sparked by a row over a guy.

A girl's reported to have been assaulted outside a pub.

She's saying she was pushed and punched and threatened.

This is the footage now.

That's the mother to this girl, having an argument.

The victim's in the doorway.

You can see there, the suspect's quite angry

and they're obviously having some sort of argument there.

When she's been interviewed she's said she has pushed her,

but it was in self-defence because she was getting pushed.

But we can see from the camera there

that she hasn't acted in self-defence.

I think this is the guy that it's involving.

Was anyone actually hurt in this altercation?

She's saying that when she's been pushed over, she's hit her head

and as a result, she's got a visible injury,

so it was crimed as a section 47 assault

because there's actual bodily harm there.

It's probably going to be an RJ outcome.

That's probably going to be the best resolution for it.

Faye is hoping to use restorative justice to resolve the case

because she doesn't think taking Alex,

the 25-year-old offender, to court is the best option.

Rather than criminalise the offender, it gives them a chance, really,

to realise what's happened

and not make the same mistake twice. Yeah.

Both women have agreed to the RJ process.

Faye rings Josie, the 19-year-old victim, first,

as she has the decisive say in how it proceeds.

I'm just phoning up obviously

in relation to the assault you reported to us.

But the victim isn't happy with Faye's plan.

So there's no way you'd want to talk to her about it?

OK, Josie, take care, bye.

She doesn't want to see her face to face, basically.

She doesn't want to come into contact with her again

if she doesn't have to. She doesn't want to sit and chat to her

and come to any agreement,

but she would like a letter of apology

and she'll consider the matter dealt with if she gets that.

Some organisations we've spoken to

say that as few as one in ten victims

want to meet their offenders.

Hi, Alex, it's PC Parker again. You all right?

Good. I've just spoken to Josie about you perhaps meeting up.

She doesn't really want to do that.

She has said that she's still happy

for the RJ process to go ahead, which is best for you.

She just was looking for an apology, really,

so whether that is something that you could write in a letter,

perhaps apologising for the incident in the pub that night?

And then it'll be considered dealt with at that point,

which is the best outcome for you as well, really. OK, see you later. Bye.

So she's agreed to the letter.

I think she would have preferred to see her face to face,

speaking to her and sort it out

because she doesn't want anything to happen in the future,

but she has agreed to write the letter,

but she wants some help with it.

The victim's most comfortable with a letter,

so we've got to go with that, really.

Josie, the victim, didn't want to appear on camera,

but she did agree to speak to me.

It was interesting to talk to Josie

because she seems quite happy with the RJ process she's been offered.

I have a worry

how much she will actually get out of it

and how genuine the offender will be in this case,

because it seems to me that the offender has the best outcome.

She doesn't get charged or arrested, she doesn't go through the courts,

whether an outcome comes of that or not.

She doesn't even have to meet Josie, though that is Josie's choice.

All she has to do is write this letter, and it's hard to see

how remorseful somebody is in a letter or how genuine they are.

Josie believes the assault on her was unjustified.

Alex has agreed to talk to me about it, and I'm keen to find out

if restorative justice will solve this case.

You know that I've spoken to Josie

and I believe there was an incident between the two of you.

It was decided you'd write a letter to Josie, is that right? Yeah.

Were you told what to write or given a guide of what to write,

or did you just do it off your own bat?

The policeman came round and spoke to me about it,

helped with what I'd put in it, what I'd like to say.

I did write an apology, just saying the reason for me actions

was because I disagreed with what was said on the night, which is true.

I think I wrote five lines.

I wrote a short letter, I signed it and I think he took it round to her.

Do you feel that the police spent enough time with you

to check that right, yep, you are sorry?

They knew I was sorry

and they knew I wanted it just to be done.

It wasn't something that was planned

but at the end of the day, she's got to take part of the blame.

And do you think now, that will be an end to it with you and Josie,

hopefully, now you've done what you was asked to do?

I don't think it will, being honest, but hopefully it will.

I mean, I don't need it.

I don't want to be faffing about

with childish, petty incidents like this.

I can't be doing with it.

I'm quite confused, to be honest,

because I thought the definition of restorative justice

was mediation between a victim and an offender

and for the offender to admit to what they've done

and to say sorry for that,

and although Alex genuinely seems sorry

for the moment that she lashed out, as she put it,

overall, she wasn't sorry as to why she did it

and I don't think she casts herself as an offender.

So I'm wondering why restorative justice was used in this case

and if it can even be called restorative justice, to be honest.

I want to take my concerns about the use of a letter in this case

back to the police.

We've got a case with two girls,

and the victim, it was her choice,

she didn't want to meet her offender,

so she received a five-line letter of apology

but her story wasn't taken,

so the offender never actually got to hear how that girl felt.

So is that really a true reflection of RJ?

Is that full impact being experienced there?

There is a restorative spectrum,

and for me we should always aim to be at the top end of that spectrum,

which is victim and offender sitting like you and I are now, face to face,

and having a heartfelt and difficult conversation about what's happened.

There are other ways of delivering it,

but every time you step down that spectrum,

I think the ability to change someone's life becomes harder.

It seems to me that restorative justice used in the wrong case

could be a soft option, and the issues may be left unresolved.

It's not only the police that use restorative justice.

There are other organisations who do it on the police's behalf.

Are you still all right to meet us?

Rebecca Green works for a charity called Redeeming Our Communities,

known as RoC, that organises restorative justice.

Greater Manchester Police refer cases to RoC

to help reduce their workload.

RoC uses local volunteers to bring victims and offenders together

for meetings known as conferences.

If we can get the community

to actually facilitate these conferences,

the community then are dealing with their own issues

within the community, it's brilliant.

So the police can be relieved to deal with more serious crime.

Rebecca has just received a case of threatening and abusive behaviour

which will be dealt with by face-to-face restorative justice.

He is an ex-resident of a place that supports young, homeless people.

He verbally abused the lady who works there.

The incident had taken place a few weeks earlier,

when a youth worker refused to let in a 21-year-old

who'd been recently evicted from the shelter.

I've been invited to attend the restorative justice conference

taking place at a local church hall.

Take a seat. Thank you.

Rebecca shows Karen, the victim, into the room.

Rebecca and her colleague, Sheena,

have had separate meetings with both Karen and Tony, the offender,

to assess and prepare them for tonight.

Sit over there. Welcome, everybody, thank you so much for coming.

Following restorative justice guidelines,

Rebecca starts with the offender in order to put the victim at ease.

Can you just tell us what happened?

Well, what happened is that I went to Rakes House with my girlfriend

and a friend of mine, and Karen come to the door and told me

to move in a snotty manner,

so I started going mad and she stood there laughing at me,

so it provoked me to go even more, like.

What were you feeling at the time?

Angry. Why did you feel angry? Because of the way she spoke to me.

She'd never met me in her life

and she spoke to me in such a snotty manner. OK.

RJ rules say no-one should interrupt who's speaking,

so Karen waits for her turn.

Tony came to the place where I work.

I used the intercom to politely ask Tony to move away from the door.

And at this point Tony then started shouting,

telling me to, "Eff off, eff off, you effing bitch",

and then I heard that he said that he was going to shoot me.

You're lying cos I didn't threaten to shoot you.

OK, well, maybe I misheard that bit but...

You're lying as well cos you wasn't scared,

you were laughing at me, blatantly.

OK. Well, I've not come here to defend myself.

'It doesn't look to me like this is going very well at all.'

Tony, you did say at the start of the process

that you wanted a chance to say sorry?

I do, but she should say sorry for the things she did to me as well.

Laughing at me, she stood there laughing at me.

Do you think that she explained that?

Because when people feel scared...

I didn't laugh, I didn't laugh. You was laughing.

I'm a professional person. Not that professional cos you were laughing.

OK. I've got witnesses to say you were laughing at me.

'As the dispute between Karen and Tony hits rock bottom,

'Rebecca steps in.'

Were you laughing at him?

No, at no time did I laugh at him at all.

I think I heard you say earlier that if that's how it looked,

if that's the impression that he got, then sorry.

Yeah, I said that but there is no way I'd laugh

at a young person who was angry

because it just inflames the situation.

'But then there's an amazing turnaround.

'It comes when Karen talks to Tony

'about what they have in common: families.'

One of the things I wanted you to think about was

if somebody spoke to your mum like that or somebody...

No-one would speak to my mum like that. Exactly.

I wouldn't allow it. There you go.

I went home to my family and my family feel the same way.

Cos I'm somebody's mum as well.

You wouldn't want anybody to speak to your mum like that, would you?

And that's what you did to me.

'Karen's explanation of the impact

'on her and her family prompts a reaction in Tony.'

So how do you feel about that now?

I feel genuinely sorry cos it's affected her family

cos they wouldn't like it to know that someone's spoken to their mum

or wife or girlfriend like that.

'Suddenly, Karen and Tony

'are seeing the situation from each other's point of view.'

Do you want to speak to Karen directly?

I am genuinely sorry for what I did to you and I shouldn't have done it.

OK, and if you did think I laughed at you, then I apologise.

But I wouldn't do that.

I can see your face is different now from when you first came in

and you wouldn't look at me, but I think that barrier's come down

and I think we both understand each other now.

I don't know what you think. Yeah, I do understand you. Good.

You actually seem like a nice person. Thank you, that's nice.

There's someone nice working in the project.

You have to be brave to do this, don't you?

Yeah, it's a bit scary. It's good though.

I'm glad that we did this.

I am. Yeah. It's good, isn't it? It's made me think.

You what, love?

It's made me think that people aren't what

they look like all the time, how you think they are.

I couldn't believe what I'd seen

and had to talk to Rebecca about what had just happened.

It's a shocking turnaround to witness in literally half an hour

from "I'm not happy" and "You're a liar"

to talking about baking cakes

and literally body language changed, and it was fascinating to watch.

I think the moment for me was when she was saying,

"How would you feel

"if someone spoke to your mum like that?"

He really did soften then as well cos he's a son

and he protects and loves his mum,

so you have to find that little...

I don't know, sensitive point to press on.

I've now seen the impact

a positive restorative justice conference can have.

I realise an apology is just a small part of it.

It's about understanding each other's point of view

and creating a connection between two people.

But, despite this,

I still feel this is probably not the right step for me.

For one thing, I'm not sure

whether restorative justice can change behaviour in the long term.

To find out, I've come to meet a former hardened criminal

who's been through RJ himself.

Peter Woolf was a prolific offender.

I've robbed banks, I've broke in houses,

some have been council houses and some have been mansions.

I got involved quite heavily with alcohol and drugs,

heroin, crack cocaine.

Had you been in prison for any of these crimes you've spoken about?

I've spent 18? years of my life in prison.

Not all in one go, I'd get, like, five years, four years, three years.

In March 2002, Peter set out to burgle

just like he had on so many previous occasions.

I just started knocking doors and this door didn't get answered,

so I shook it about and pushed it,

and it opened, and that was it, I was in.

Will Riley was at home that day.

I was just finishing off work about 5.30, getting my stuff ready

to go to the gym.

It was a five-storey Georgian house

and I went straight to the top and I started searching.

I went upstairs, top floor of my house, and...

I opened this wardrobe.

In the bottom was a pair of shoes, and I remember thinking,

"The person who owns this house mustn't half be a big fella."

And as I thought it, this voice said...

"What are you doing here?" And he said, "I'm a neighbour."

I said, "Oh, you know, I live across the road at number two."

And he said, "Where's number two?" And I said, "It's over there."

But it weren't, it was over there. And I knew exactly what he was.

Eventually I said, "Get out of my way, I'm going."

Stupidly, I decided to restrain him.

And we started to fight.

And then it all got very out of hand.

And we rolled down this flight of stairs

and at the bottom of the stairs I was the first one to my feet.

There was this big china vase...

Never put flowerpots in your hallway,

because he picked it up and hit me over the head with it.

I always remember to this moment in my life

I could see the blood come out of his head, just squirting.

I screamed at the top of my voice for someone to call the police.

The police came and I was arrested, and do you know what?

It didn't mean anything to me. It was a bad day at the office.

But this encounter had a more profound effect on Will.

From that day, I couldn't put a key in the door,

without thinking there'd be somebody behind it.

Peter was sent back to prison - he received a four-year sentence.

A few weeks later Will agreed to take part

in a restorative justice conference.

He sat down and then he started giving the old social worker spiel.

You know, "Poor old me, I've had such a hard life,

"I'm sorry I done this and I won't ever do it again."

And I thought, "Oh, no, this is rubbish,

"this is a complete waste of time."

And I say to Will, "Will, when we first met..."

And he went, "Hang on a minute!"

Oh, no, talk about denial!

He went apeshit, he went right into one.

I just lost it completely, you know,

it was like an emotional fire hydrant!

I said, "We didn't meet in some bloody bar in Islington,

"you broke into my house!"

And then he started listing all these things about his emotions.

"Why did YOU hit ME?

"Do you understand what you've done to ME?"

How his daughter had suffered, how his wife had suffered,

how the family unit had suffered, and it went on and on and on.

And it was at that time that there was a change in Peter.

I mean, talk about remorse, it was like a train had hit him.

"Whoa, God, what is this?!"

I felt ashamed like I'd never felt ashamed before in my life,

I felt guilty like I'd never felt in my life,

I felt sorry for another human being

like I'd never felt sorry before. I felt...wrong.

And that made a change in him

and it's changed his life completely.

So did you ever reoffend? Never! Never, ever reoffended.

Never taken another drug, never drunk alcohol again.

And it made a change in me because I put the key in the door

and never even think about someone being on the other side.

In the 12 years since their meeting,

Peter and Will have become friends.

And in 2008 they also set up

a restorative justice charity together.

We stopped creating victims.

I was committing thousands of crimes every year

so God knows how many victims was created.

I could see that I had a huge effect on an individual,

who happened to be an offender -

and I thought that this is something

that everybody should have the right to have.

I thought Peter and I, as a twosome,

could go out and front this campaign.

That is a pretty incredible outcome for restorative justice.

But can it be suitable for victims of even more extreme crimes?

'I'm now on my way to meet a woman who was raped in 2004

'and decided she wanted to meet her attacker five years later

'when he was in prison.'

I'm quite apprehensive actually,

because this is a really, really serious crime

and even taking the first step

to meeting the person that raped you I think is incredibly brave.

I'm struggling to get my head round how you even make that decision.

I've come to meet Jo Nodding, who works as a teacher,

to hear about the day her life changed

and why she chose restorative justice.

Hi, is it Jo? It is. Hello, Jo, Brooke.

Lovely to meet you. Please do come in. Thank you.

It was a normal Monday morning

and at the time I was doing specialist teaching,

teaching individual young people.

We'd been on our own for about ten minutes and he lunged for me.

I tried to get him off me but he was so determined,

he pushed me on the floor, and he raped me.

Quite violently, to the point that I thought I was going to die that day.

Luckily I didn't, he did leave me in one piece.

What did that do to you? What did that do to your life, Jo?

I didn't have a life for months and months afterwards.

I didn't live, I survived,

I only did what I had to do to get through one day at a time.

I didn't want to go out, I was scared if I heard anything.

If I was out and anyone got too close to me,

in my personal space, I just absolutely lost it.

I would suddenly just start screaming and crying

because I could smell him, for months and months afterwards,

I had the smell of...

What he smelled like on that day, I could still smell him.

Jo's rapist was only 12 years old at the time of the attack

but he was bigger than her and was able to overpower her.

He pleaded guilty at court and was sentenced in 2005.

He got life.

But the court case did absolutely nothing for me as a person.

In some ways it made me feel worse,

because at the end of the court case

the judge looked at him

and he told my attacker that he had ruined my life.

And I've never, ever said those words.

And I just felt like,

"Great(!) You have now given him total power over me."

Because this young person can go through life, thinking,

"Yep, I've ruined her life, I've controlled her."

And so in some ways the court case made me feel worse, as a victim.

Jo knew after her attacker was sentenced

that she wanted the chance to tell him how she felt

but it took her four years to feel ready to meet him face to face.

In 2009, now 17, he agreed to restorative justice

and eight months of preparation with RJ organisers followed.

They worked so hard with me and they got me to such a point

that I knew I was strong enough and brave enough

to go into that meeting.

So we arrived at the building, at about 9.15,

and I walked in the room

and he sat opposite to where the door was,

and he looked like a scared little boy.

It was complete role reversal.

He was in control of me on the day of the rape

and I was petrified of him,

and, you know, he was petrified of me.

What was the first thing you said to him, Jo?

I thanked him.

I said, "Thank you for coming to this meeting

"because if you hadn't agreed

"I would never have got this opportunity."

I went through the whole attack.

And you could see he was listening,

and I got to the point where I said,

"I thought you were going to murder me."

When you were raping me, all my family -

my husband, my mum, Dad - were flashing in front of my face

because I thought you was going to put your hands round my throat

and murder me.

And tears started streaming down his face.

Because he'd never even thought about that.

He didn't realise that was the impact he'd had on me.

Knowing she was having an effect on her offender,

Jo explained the impact on the family, too.

I said to him, "If you are ever a father,

"I hope you never have to go through what my dad had to go through.

"And if you are ever a husband,

"I hope you never have to go through what my husband had to do."

And he...

You could see he hadn't even thought about that.

And then again the tears started coming. That was good enough for me.

I knew I was getting through to him. I knew I was, erm...

He was now realising the full extent of his crime,

which, up until that point, he hadn't realised. Right.

He did apologise.

He looked at me, straight in the eyes, and he said,

"Jo, I am sorry. And when I say I am sorry, I mean proper sorry.

"And I promise you, I'll never do it again." And how was it left?

I looked at him and I said, "What I'm about to say to you -

"a lot of people will not understand how I can say this -

"but I forgive you for what you have done to me,

"and if you haven't forgiven yourself,

"I want you to forgive yourself,

"because I want you to go on and have a successful life,

"because I don't want you to go back to this point ever again."

And I walked out that room,

and I was no longer a victim. I was a survivor.

If you can say you feel on top of the world,

after such an awful ordeal,

I felt on top of the world because I was me again.

I hadn't been myself for five years,

and from that day I was myself again.

I had my whole life back again.

Meeting Jo has had a huge impact on me.

I think hearing that after the restorative justice process,

Jo was able to get on with her life

- she calls herself a survivor now, not a victim -

that's... that's a massive achievement.

I just would love the chance to tell the people

who took away my brother exactly what they did to me and my family.

It's only something that I am really-really-small-baby-steps considering.

But just hearing how Jo got that power back,

got her life back, got closure on it,

is the first time through this whole journey of restorative justice

that it's actually made me consider whether this is something

I would do myself.

At the start of my journey I couldn't contemplate

any kind of contact with my brother's killers.

But now I'm feeling differently about that.

Can I have restorative justice on my terms?

Hi, Nicola? Hello, Brooke. Nice to meet you.

I've come to Remedi, a charity that specialises in restorative justice,

to try to find answers to my questions.

Myself, I am not interested in meeting the people that killed my brother.

I don't want to look them in the eye, I don't want any apologies,

there is nothing that they can ever say to me.

But, I would like to say to them,

"This is what you have done to my family."

Whether it be through a letter or through a video...

I would like those three men to watch that

and, to be honest, I just think, having gone through this journey,

it should be made compulsory.

They have to be still willing to meet with Remedi

and have that assessment with us

and to explore potential involvement.

If they said no to any form of involvement,

we couldn't force them to do that.

The reason for that is that, potentially,

they could say something that could be more hurtful, or more damaging,

and that's something we would never want to put you through. Right.

One of the things that really upset me in court, and my family,

was that no matter what happened

you were not allowed to show emotion or anger.

You couldn't cry no matter what you saw, or were confronted with.

You wasn't allowed to get angry,

you're not even allowed to look at the offender at some times.

So, if your next meeting with your offender is then going to be

if it is restorative justice,

no matter how many years later,

I imagine there's a lot of emotion you've wanted to display

for a very long time.

Definitely.

We're very much led by you and what you are ready for

and, you know, how you feel comfortable progressing with that.

That takes into account the emotions you're feeling at the time.

Just because you're angry, though,

does that mean it's not the right time? No, no. Not at all.

Because maybe that's...that's how you feel and that is what you want to out.

So, if I was approached, but I was still angry, does that mean,

OK, I don't get to do it?

Not at all. Not at all.

Because anger is a normal emotion to feel

when you've been a victim of crime.

And it's important that you get that across.

That's what restorative justice can do.

It can enable you to get some of that anger out,

and for the offender to see how it's made you feel.

Anger is one side of that.

Sad, upset... Various other emotions come along.

But just because you're angry doesn't mean that

you can't take part in restorative justice. OK.

Thank you very much for answering my question. Thank you. Thank you.

I'm almost at the end of my restorative justice journey.

I've seen RJ used across a range of offences,

from antisocial behaviour to rape.

But before I can judge ultimately how well it works

in the criminal justice system,

I want to take one more step to find out how successfully

it can be used in the worst case of all, murder.

I'm on my way to Blackpool

to meet a woman whose brother was brutally killed,

and she later asked to meet the murderer.

I'm really coming around to restorative justice,

but taking that step into a room where you know

you're going to be metres away with the person that haunts your nightmares,

to me, is still uncomprehendable.

On the night of January 30th 2007,

Malcolm Benfield was out for the evening in Blackpool.

Malcolm was 57 and worked as a chef in the seaside town.

He was walking by the seafront when he was approached by three men.

They wanted money for alcohol.

They had been drinking all day.

One of the men then set about Malcolm in a frenzied attack,

and kicked and beat him to death.

Hiya, Wendy. You OK? Hello, Brooke. Hello. Pleased to meet you.

Lovely to meet you.

Thank you so much for taking time to talk to me. You're welcome.

Wendy Bridge is Malcolm's sister.

People have said to me, how can you bear to go back?

Not the place.

It's the people. Yeah.

He was found...

just under those pillars there.

He was badly beaten,

so much that he had face imprints from the shoes.

You could clearly see a mark of a trainer.

And they left him, and it was about three hours before he was found.

Police Family Liaison officers broke the news of Malcolm's death to Wendy.

They said, "We're afraid your brother has been murdered."

They went next morning back at nine to bring me to identify Malcolm.

You had to identify him? Yes.

Couldn't touch him. Yeah. Or anything.

That's the hard bit, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. It is indeed. Yeah.

So... I told him off for being so stupid -

walking along here, so late at night.

Mark Goodwin was sentenced to life imprisonment,

with a minimum of 18 years,

for Malcolm's murder.

But Goodwin's conviction didn't resolve things for Wendy.

I had no say in anything.

The police took over.

And the courts took over.

We waited five months before we could bury him. Mm.

You know, and you need to have something

that you have control over.

By chance, Wendy saw a programme on restorative justice in 2011

that seemed to offer her a solution.

"This great-grandmother wanted to meet the youth

"who terrorised her, and ended up giving him a hug."

As soon as I watched the programme, I thought, "That's for me."

I must admit I always felt some degree of compassion for Mark.

He's going to spend a lot of years in prison,

and I felt from that point

that this was maybe something that could help me

have some way of knowing what kind of person he would turn into.

What do you think Malcolm would think

about you taking part in restorative justice?

I think he would be very pleased.

If I could help in any way to turn Mark's life around,

this is my chance to do it.

Six months ago, Wendy travelled to the high-security prison

Mark is held at for the restorative justice conference.

I think from Mark's point of view it was a terrifying experience.

He was visibly shaking.

So I got up, walked towards him, and shook his hand.

That same hand that killed Malcolm.

Extremely hard to do.

And I said to him...

.."Mark, you did a terrible thing.

"You're being punished for it.

"I'm not here to punish you, again,

"but I would like to tell you what it meant to me."

So I said, "You killed a brother who was very much loved.

"But, now I have told you that..."

And that's when he interrupted,

and he spoke in such a quiet voice I had trouble hearing him.

I had to ask him to speak up.

And he said, "I am very sorry for what I did.

"I think about it every day of my life.

"And every day of my life, I wish I was dead."

That's the only time I got angry.

Because I says to him, "I don't want to hear you talking about dying.

"I want to hear you talk about doing something with your life

"so Malcolm didn't die in vain."

And then, after that, the atmosphere changed.

What did it do for you? When you walked out of that room,

how did you feel? Did you feel any different?

I felt a weight had lifted off my shoulders.

It took the demon away from me.

Before, he was that evil person, who had killed.

And he became just an ordinary young man.

Nothing special about him.

Just an ordinary young man that drank too much,

couldn't handle it,

and was paying for that for the best part of his life.

For Wendy, meeting Mark was about having some influence over his life.

And speaking to Wendy has made things very clear for me.

My mind has been changed very much on restorative justice,

but Wendy convinced me of that more

that it is not right for me to do now.

I do not have compassion, I still have a lot of anger.

And it's clear I'm not ready.

And one thing I have learned from this journey is that

you absolutely have to be ready.

I began this journey thinking restorative justice

was all for offenders' benefit and a soft option.

I wondered how it could help victims.

In the last few months, though,

I've met the youngster given a second chance.

Better than being arrested. Remember they said this is last chance. Yeah.

I've witnessed the courage and power of a restorative justice conference,

and the impact on offenders.

You have to be brave to do this, don't you, I think? Aye.

And I've met the victims who've regained control.

On that day, I was myself again. I had my whole life back again.

Now, I see RJ differently.

I really think that restorative justice is a process for victims,

and should be offered to them no matter what it takes.

I'm not ready yet, to meet my brother's killers face to face,

although now I know I can choose restorative justice

when the time is right for me.

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