Do You Trust the Police?

Has there ever been a worse time for London's police force? Scotland Yard

has been robbed by scandal... There's to be a public enquhry in to

the work of undercover officers I'm still having to fight for something

that should have happened over 0 years ago. After scandal? HTW

EDWARDS: a Metropolitan Polhce officer who lied about witndssing a

row between police and a Cabinet Minister Downing Street has been

sentenced to 12 months in prison. After scandal. They would often

spend years undercover and dven strike up dramatic relationships

with their targets. London hs a city of unique challenges. And ydt the

figures suggest that crime hn London is actually falling, down bx about

10% in the last year. Gun crime is down, burglary is down and when you

ask the public whether they trust the police, polls say that they

mainly do. Although one third of us still believe that their police are

institutionally racist. And all of this when there is a huge spueeze on

money, too. Police stations are being closed and The Met's budget is

being cut by around half ?1 billion. And the man who has to leavd the

force through these difficult times is Sir Bernard Hogan`Howe, `

Yorkshireman who joined as ` young man on the beat at 22 and rose

through the ranks of the top list `` to the toughest job in policing I

will make sure that we get to the bottom of what is a terribld set of

events. Tonight, he is facing the people who pay his wages. Londoners.

They come from across the c`pital to ask hard questions of the m`n at the

top. So, we have The Met commisshoner,

Sir Bernard Hogan`Howe and our group was specially invited Londoners to

ask questions. If you want to join us on Twitter, the hashtag hs police

trust. Let's start with Jason Nwansi. Hello. Can you look me in

the eye and assure me that there is no corruption in the Mets today

No, I cannot do that entirely. What I can say is that we have a lot of

integrity. It has got better than it has been in the past. But when I

people, but I say everyone of them people, but I say everyone of them

is a saint, they are not. Btt I m very proud of them. I think the vast

majority of them do a fantastic job. There will be people who let us down

and we should all be shocked and disgusted. But the vast majority do

a great job and we should not lose sight of the fact that everx day, on

our behalf, those people take incredible risks. But when they let

us down, I feel as discussed it as you do. You had a hard time over the

shredding of documents from MPs and you could not even tell us when they

were traded. That is not entirely true. `` when they were shrddded.

That is not entirely true. The broad point is that we are trying to get

to the bottom of something that happened a long time ago. The broad

allegation is that some of the documents were shredded. We need to

know the motive, exactly wh`t happened and we can speculate all

day. You were in the human resources part at that time, did you see any

shredding then? No, I did not. The date that we were given was 200 the

trouble is, if you ask someone in the audience tonight, can you

remember what you were doing 12 years ago. But people understand

that. We are carefully and methodically getting to the facts of

what happened. But on the broad point, when you were in The Met in

2002, you were not aware of corruption? These are two dhfferent

questions. Was I aware of any shredding? No. But was I aw`re of

corruption, there is always corruption going on. When wd are

aware of it we deal with it. It is really important that we explained

that we have people whose only job is to go and investigate police

officers. Operation Tiberius was buried. Let him come back in.

Operation Tiberius was buridd. That was quite scary. I was readhng in

the Independent Online and the stuff that some of the police werd alleged

to have been doing, your own internal report says, rape, drug

distribution and serious crhminal activity. That is quite scary.

Before he comes in, I will bring in somebody else. James Maddan, is the

whole corruption critique overstated? I think so, yes. As the

Commissioner has rightly sahd, there is always going to be one or two. I

would be very surprised if the commissioner had been able to say

that there was no corruption in the Metropolitan Police. Let's love on

to trust about your crime fhgures. Looking at your screen, you will

know this man's face. He is a whistle`blower. PC James Patrick. He

said that we cannot trust the crime figures. There is all kinds of

fiddling going on. Even things like rape and child abuse are not being

recorded as crimes. You said there was truth in it. Can we not trust

your figures? It is almost impossible to try and explahn the

complexity of crime recording. I will not even try. There has always

been some problems with these crimes recording. The public do not always

tell us about the crime. So we know in terms of sexual offences, 85 of

people who are attacked nevdr tell us. So the recording is alrdady a

problem. Sometimes, we miss record. The sins that the system soletimes

drives police officers to ptt in the wrong `` to put things in the wrong

category. I invited Her Majdsty s inspector is `` inspector to come

along and see if there's a problem. We will know soon. He has already

said that he thinks he will find stuff in there that he will find

worrying. We found that surprise in. We thought he would have a look

before you came to that conclusion. But the boys are made in thd

beginning is that we try our best to rely on facts. In this case, if you

looked at things like crime recording, the crime statistics

never tell as all the truth. It is about fiddling, that is what it is

about. The British Crime Survey an anonymous survey, which does not

include young people, says broadly the same thing, crime is coling

down. If you looked at murddr, murder is coming down by about a

quarter and young people by a third. If anybody thinks we are Miss

recording murder, they are wrong. Anyone else leave that people are

giving you the right story? Figures are being massaged. In some areas

you get high numbers. In Barnet where I live, we had a masshve

increase in burglaries. So coming down from a high is not really a

reduction. And my concern is that a reduction in budget means a

reduction in resources which means a reduction in effective policing I

live in the largest borough in London was one of the highest

populations. And yet historhcally, we have been starved of resources.

Previous borough commanders have almost pleaded for officers and with

little result. We have police stations closed and we are having to

run outside `` we are having to bring in outside officers and

although burglary has come down it was at the most horrendous time Can

I take one point, which I do agree with you. If a crime goes through

the roof, then the following year, we see a reduction. One exalple

theft of mobile phones. In the last couple of years, and in manx big

capitals, mobile phone theft went through the roof. This year, we have

reduced it by 30%. 30% of a large number, so in that sense, I agree

with you. Let's talk about the reality of crime and whether you

feel safer way you live as ` result of Sir Bernard's work.

With the police, all year is the bad things they do, never the good. I

think what the police have to deal with, they are amazing. Thex are

human. They are not all good. You get a few nasty ones, but on the

whole, they are doing an am`zing job. There is a load of thel outside

the block at 1am. Give me the details, and I will sort it out I

think the police are easier to approach than they were before. Now

they are encouraged to commtnicate with the community and say hello.

The importance of a police station in the local community is htge. Not

everybody is able to get on a bus or travel to their nearest polhce

station. Communities need access to the police. Closing police stations

will not help. They need to be able to go whenever they need it.

And Silla is in our audiencd here, in the front row. Sir Bernard, can

you look her in the eye and say that these police station closurds are

not going to hurt her neighbourhood? I can't guarantee it, Silla. I mean,

one of the things I agree is that to have a police station as part of the

community is very important. As with the Post Office. It's huge, really.

All the different reasons why people find a police station a good idea

that a good idea. But there are two issues that we have to deal with. It

is the money that the public spending and that ?600 millhon I

refer to is that we are havhng to save, we have only got so m`ny

options. We can have less police but I think having as many police as we

have is a good idea. But thd majority of people who want us ring

us. In the two and a half ydars I have been you, five and a h`lf

million people ring us. If xou want us, we will come. There is no

screening. Whatever the crile, however minor, `` however mhnor we

will come. We have kept open our big buildings that some buildings have

been in places that people did not go any more. And when you h`ve only

so much money, you have onlx so many choices. Seller, were that the OK?

We don't have any choice, bdcause this is down to the governmdnt, they

are stopping your money. I `gree with Seller, the bedrock of what

policing is about is having a relationship with the community

Especially with our youngstdrs! But the way that `` the money wd are

saving, we will get 2600 more officers into officers and 0000 ``

into stations, and 1000 mord into response. But some of the officers

have drifted into non`jobs. Cynthia? I think she is right about

something that police are doing are not coming out. We have dond so much

work in engaging police. We have 600 city safe havens, a police `` a

place where police `` a place where people can go for the warrant

immediate danger. Not enough of that is mentioned. We as the comlunity

have also something to do. We have to work with them and they're

working with us, it is a two`way thing. Let's talk about detdction

rates. Sir Bernard, you said you were not happy with detection rates

as they currently are. The audience, what percentage of

robberies in audience are solved? Let's see a percentage. 20%, you

say? 30%? You are bidding slightly higher, but you are in the

ballpark. The ex`policeman hs closest, 15%. The percentagd chance

of a thief being caught if xour car is stolen tonight while you are in

here? Anyone? 5% 2%? You know where we are going with this. 8%. We only

solve a percent of car thefts. How many crimes in London are solved,

22%. Not enough. You didn't mention murder, Jeremy. Form either it is

85%. That is different, these murderer is known to the victim I

have said already, I'm not happy with these percentages. But the

murder solving rate is nearly 9 %. I think you're being disingentous with

the figures. "Lies damned lhes and statistics," a quote from Bdnjamin

Disraeli, but the fact is that when you have a murder, it's horrific.

You throw everything at it. You throw your major commands at it You

throw your most experienced detectives at it. You throw all your

computer systems that you h`ve and all the intelligence that you have

and you are to be congratul`ted I don't want to patronize you. You are

to be congratulated on the very very high rate you have in detection

and conviction when it comes to murders. The fact is that mtrder in

this capital city of ours, thankfully, is relatively lhttle, is

relatively low. People don't experience murder in their family,

thankfully, very often. What they do experience is that their car's being

nicked and their home's being burgled and their kids are being

mugged for their phones and their ipods and their androids and that's

the important thing. I understand what you're saying but my rdason for

mentioning it is because in Jeremy's list he didn't include the lurder

figures because that was a good news story. So, therefore, as

representing my organisation, I m going to talk about that because if

I don't, who will? Why not talk about what...? I'm going to come

back to that, I was just trxing to put a bit of balance into your

unbalanced account, Jeremy. All right. In terms of the general, you

know, the general point abott volume crime, I agree entirely, thdse are

the crimes people experiencd most. Only three ways to detect crime You

catch them doing it. We catch about 18% of burglars, who we catch, we

catch them actually at the scene. Forensics, or someone tells us who

did it, which is why communhty policing is so important because

generally people know who commits crime. Challenge in London, and I

don't accept it as a defencd but as a challenge, we've got a very big

transient population and many of our population has actually arrhved

quite recently and some of the intelligence that we have of people

who've been here for 20, 30 years aren't in the same position.

Frankly, some of the communhties don't tell us things and I challenge

myself about that. They shotld trust us enough to tell us who is

committing crime but not evdryone does. So there are reasons hn this

city which are different, btt no excuse, so my challenge... For me,

I've said to our force, this coming year I want it to be the ye`r of

detection. Get out there and detect, don't just record it. I don't want

people who are administrators. I want people who are going to stop

the crime, and one of the bdst ways to stop crime is to catch the person

who did it and for me, I acknowledge, we don't do enough of

it. Let's? And yet there's just one final thing which is a positive in

this city, and some people `rgue against it, but it's CCTV. We may

not be the North of Wales where they have, you know, small communities,

they notice unusual things, very high detection rates. We do have

opportunities here and I thhnk we need to make more of them. Let's

move on to another area that is fraught with difficulties for the

Met. I think the first time I got stopped was probably when I was

about 12 on my estate where I live, Gypsy Hill. They say what they

always say, you know, like, "You fit the description." That's prdtty much

all you ever hear. I thought, and still do think in a lot of ways the

police are very hypocritical cos they don't represent what they're

meant to stand for. They sax they're meant to stand for justice but I

think they are very unjust hn a lot of ways. I'm not a criminal, I don't

have a criminal record and they make me feel as if I am a crimin`l. A lot

of young, black youths get stopped and are stereotyped. I belidve that,

in certain areas, police can make a difference. If people know the

police are around, they're not likely to carry out a crime. But if

you are in the wrong place `t the wrong time you will get stopped and

searched. In a lot of situations, they won't come down on you lightly.

I used to get angry about it but I'm so used to it, and I don't think

it's ever going to stop. Well, Carl is here. How manx times

was it? 50, 51? Over, I couldn't honestly keep count of how lany

times I've been stopped and searched. On what basis, I don't

particularly know. Erm, I think a lot of the figures, as we mdntioned

earlier, are incorrect, due to the fact that I don't think you liase

with young people. I saw th`t 8 % of people think the police, yot know,

are...do trust the police. H think that figure is also incorrect. Do

those figures include young people, for one? For two, I don't think ..

You say that, erm, police, for example people like contacthng the

police. I think police lack communicating with services in the

community in general, for example... You watched that, Sir Bernard. It's

concerning that film, isn't it, when Carl hasn't committed a crile ever?

Yeah, I mean I apologise, C`rl, if what you just described is xour

experience. I don't think it's very good. One of the things I fhnd as I

came back to the Met two and a half years ago, your story I heard too

many of, so I've done something about it. It's not perfect, as

you've described, but, I me`n, before the riots, 2010, 2010, we

were stop searching about 840,0 0 people a year and stop and

accounting about another 350,00 . That's 1.2 million people. Can I

just make this point, Carl, because it's really important for md? That's

a lot of people even out of 8.4 million people. Of course it's, as

your experience, sometimes people are stopped more than once, in your

terms, in your case, a lot of times. And then this type of meeting I have

in a borough, different borough of London every four weeks, so we get

probably 50, 200 people togdther and your story I heard from too many

parents who are sick and tired of their kids being stopped. Ndver been

in trouble like you've described and probably never would be. And so I

didn't like it and I looked at the statistics as well, but, as you

know, as you said, the stats don't tell you everything. So we have done

something about it. We've rdduced those stop searches to a thhrd of

what they were. We've reducdd the disproportionality, whether someone

is black or white and what percentage of the population they

are. So you're now as likelx to be stopped if you're Asian as hf you're

white. That wasn't the case after 9/11. It went hugely the other way,

and if you're a black guy, then you're 2.4 times more likelx, so

that's still got some way to go but it's a lot better than it w`s and

we've halved the number of complaints. Can I just...? This is

the final thing from me. Thhs is such a contentious thing for the

reasons you've described, I've actually contemplated, should we

stop it and everybody I've talked to, we'll see what this audhence

says tonight, they've said, "Don't stop it but that you've got to do it

properly, to the right people in the right way," and that's we'vd spent

two years trying to improve. Jamal, you're a friend of Carl's. Have you

seen any change since these policies were altered? No, not reallx. Even

the day they were doing the filming, the two young youths who live in the

area approached me and said they just got stopped. Just got stopped.

You know, it's a regular occurrence, and when I was a young man, it was

SUS, as you pointed out where the... We were sussed when we was coming

up, so I don't think it will change. I think there's a problem whth it.

Jamal, I think this city has had three, at least three levels of SUS.

It had the SUS of the '60s. A law for those who are too young to

remember which meant that on suspicion people could be stopped.

After 9/11, Section 44 of the Terrorism Act meant it was random

stop search, right across London. A piece of law that was never intended

for random stop search, it was intended for very small are`s, but

was put in place right across London and finally, this is import`nt. One

of the things I discovered when I came back in 2011 was that section

60, which is a power a senior officer can put in place in a small

area, say there's been a gang fight, for a short period of time, was like

confetti all over the place. We ve reduced those by 95% and in those

areas it was random stop se`rch And yet you have... So I think what I

can show is, I'm not going to try and argue that we don't makd bad

stop searches, I'm not going to try and argue that we have everxbody's

perfect to the police officdr, but I know I can show that we've done far

less and we're still seeing less woundings, less shootings and I

think what we're showing we can do less of it and do better. You do

have this problem where a third of people think the Met is

institutionally racist. Adal Cooper, do you think it is? Well, if we look

at statistics at every juncture of the criminal justice system, black

people are only more likely to be stopped and searched, they're more

likely to be charged, they're more likely to be arrested. In f`ct at

every single juncture, black people are disproportionately affected He

says he's changing that. He's changing it. Well, the figures came

out last year and they appe`r to be quite consistent. So the problem

isn't just stop and search, it's at every juncture of the criminal

justice system. So what do xou think that tells us about institutional

racism? Well, I'm not sure. I think you're accepting... Well, I don t

know whether you are accepthng but I think you're accepting to some

extent, stop and search has changed. If you believe our stats and I think

there's a truth in there th`t I think we should at least

acknowledge. Less of it. Less disproportionate and it's more

effective. So we're doing otr best and I think it will still kdep on

coming down. So I think that's true. I can't entirely explain all the

things you've just explained too. The education system, you do see

disproportionality. There are very many ways in which society hs

unfair. I can't entirely explain that, nor can I account for it. But

I admit it. I acknowledge it. I m in control of what I do and I'll do my

best to make sure that we'rd fair but I can't change society hn the

way that probably we need to. Bring in some other voices here on whether

the Met is institutionally racist. Would you join the police, Jason?

No, I wouldn't. I would join but the only way I would join is at a senior

rank, for the reason being, I reckon the root and branch of officers have

good nature and they want to do the right thing. I reckon where the

problem is, is at the top end. Where you look at ACPOL and we're talking

about accountability to the general public, I reckon there is too much

managers, too many chiefs and for the people who are doing thd job on

the ground floor, African, Caribbean liaison officers, safe

neighbourhood, I think they do a magnificent job but I think the

problem is, is the direction that they've given and the senior

officers aren't out on the streets. A former senior officer in here Roy

Ram, who hasn't spoken yet. Roy what do you think of that? H

actually think that the, thhs phrase of institutional racism has been

immensely damaging and immensely unhelpful. I was in the Met when it

was, when it was coined. Thdre were racists in the Met and therd have

been racists in other organhsations I've worked in subsequently but the

idea that the institution is fostering racist policies and

procedures was complete nonsense. Adam disagrees with you herd for

sure. Yeah, the fact that the statistics cannot be explained in

any other way than through institutional racism is all of the

evidence that we need in order to prove that the police are

institutionally racist. If we cannot explain it any other way th`n

through institutional racisl, then institutional racism is the only

explanation that we have. And particularly if you are victimised

by the institutional racism is why you care about it and why you

articulate it and why we all not stop talking about it until it's

sorted out. Anyone else? Anxone else want to say whether they wotld or

wouldn't join the police. R`shan, would you join? Yes, absolutely I

would join the police because the role itself is about serving and

protecting society and when an officer is an officer of thd law,

they have that sort of pridd and that's what I would bring to it if I

was a police officer. But I'd also, as well as my role policing the

community and, you know, cutting down on crime, I'd want to build

relations with the communitx. I believe that's what all polhce

officers should do when thex go in to it. Fulfil their role but also

don't forget the community `s well. What more can you do to convince

that half of London that isn't white that it's their police forcd too?

Well, the first thing is, wd've got a great opportunity because we are

recruiting 5,000 people, to get more people from all communities. But I

have to put the challenge b`ck, which is that if people takd that

view and say, I'm prepared to help, we will change. And if people say,

well, I'm not prepared to hdlp because I don't like it, it will

never change. Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not thinking

it's too negative, but I thhnk it's a general view. I wouldn't join the

force as it stands now. I understand that but we'll never get to that new

place if everyone takes that view. Yeah, but you have to changd first.

Well, we may never get therd. I think it's got to be a mix of the

two because I think one of the things... Why would I enter

something that's not welcomhng to me? At the moment it's not

welcoming. You guys don't even support whistle`blowers. Th`t's why

I say it's a bit of both. Whistle`blowers within your own

organisation are often ostr`cized by you know, yourselves. So how can we

support you? I wouldn't feel comfortable. The only thing I would

say is that you know, you m`de the point about somebody joining at a

senior level. The Met is ond of only I think it's a couple of forces in

the country where that's gohng to happen this year. So I support it. I

have to tell you that all mx senior colleagues do. Many people, and Roy

Ram may be one of them, I don't know, he'll have to speak for

himself, think that to be a senior police officer, you have to start at

the bottom and work your wax up I think, generally, that's bedn very

powerful for us. I do think we need to have some talent coming hn and

more representation at a senior level quicker. Now, when thdse

people come in, we'll not t`ke 00, we may take five or ten this year

but they will come in at a superintendent level, they lay

have... I don't care what they've done before, they've got to have

talent and they've got to bd able to lead people and they've got to be

able to communicate. Well, thank you. We've still got questions

coming in here but we're out of time and I have to say thank you very

much to Sir Bernard Hogan`Howe for coming, the Met Commissioner, thank

you to our invited audience of Londoners. Thanks to you, vdry much

indeed, for watching this programme and goodnight. APPLAUSE. I've got a

lot of faith in him. He has got a humongous task in front of him. A

lot of things were unanswerdd. In terms of the organisation of the

police, there are a lot of things still answer dash`mac an answer for.

Very helpful. I believe the guy I think he is sincere. I think he

really wants to make changes for the better. As communities we all so

have a duty. I think we can do it. Nobody is doing it. Unless he is

going to go in there and do what the police did in the 1960s, a lassive

culling of officers, he is not going to succeed. I do believe he is a

distant man dash`mac decent man Hello, I'm Riz Lateef with xour 90

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