
Browse content similar to Guilty by Association. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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|---|---|---|---|
Few would argue with the value | 0:00:09 | 0:00:11 | |
of a law that has secured convictions | 0:00:11 | 0:00:15 | |
in some of the most notorious murder cases of recent years. | 0:00:15 | 0:00:19 | |
Almost 19 years after Stephen Lawrence was stabbed to | 0:00:19 | 0:00:23 | |
death in South London, two men have finally been jailed for his murder. | 0:00:23 | 0:00:28 | |
Gary Dobson and David Norris were both found guilty, | 0:00:28 | 0:00:31 | |
although there was no proof that either had delivered the fatal blow. | 0:00:31 | 0:00:36 | |
The law that convicted them was joint enterprise, | 0:00:36 | 0:00:39 | |
which holds that a person in a group or gang can be held | 0:00:39 | 0:00:42 | |
responsible for the criminal acts of others. | 0:00:42 | 0:00:45 | |
Kids need to know today that | 0:00:45 | 0:00:46 | |
if they're going to get involved in gangs and gang crime, | 0:00:46 | 0:00:50 | |
then they can be found as much guilty for being there | 0:00:50 | 0:00:55 | |
as actually committing the crime. | 0:00:55 | 0:00:58 | |
Rising incidents of gun and knife crime have put | 0:00:58 | 0:01:02 | |
pressure on successive governments to take tough action on gangs. | 0:01:02 | 0:01:06 | |
Where there is a need for new laws, we will pass them. | 0:01:06 | 0:01:09 | |
Where there is a need for tougher enforcement, | 0:01:09 | 0:01:12 | |
we will make sure that happens. | 0:01:12 | 0:01:14 | |
For too long, there's been a lack of focus | 0:01:14 | 0:01:17 | |
on the complete lack of respect shown by these groups of thugs. | 0:01:17 | 0:01:21 | |
Joint enterprise, a 300-year-old law, | 0:01:24 | 0:01:28 | |
has proved a highly effective weapon in this fight. | 0:01:28 | 0:01:31 | |
But there is a growing unease within the legal profession that | 0:01:31 | 0:01:35 | |
it's being too widely applied. | 0:01:35 | 0:01:37 | |
There's a very clear public policy that the gang violence problem | 0:01:38 | 0:01:43 | |
is a serious one, and it is. Politicians are quite right. | 0:01:43 | 0:01:47 | |
They have to deal with public concerns. And so does the law. | 0:01:47 | 0:01:52 | |
What we don't know is whether the cost of doing that is | 0:01:52 | 0:01:57 | |
people are being convicted of things that they haven't done. | 0:01:57 | 0:02:01 | |
-What's happening later, then? -We'll be on till late this afternoon. | 0:02:14 | 0:02:18 | |
It's really hard. What do you think, Mum? | 0:02:18 | 0:02:21 | |
I'm not getting too optimistic, but... | 0:02:21 | 0:02:24 | |
..I don't want him to get really down. | 0:02:26 | 0:02:29 | |
Sally Halsall, her husband Jeff | 0:02:29 | 0:02:31 | |
and daughter Charlotte are a family struggling to deal with | 0:02:31 | 0:02:35 | |
the news that Sally's son Alex has been involved in a serious crime. | 0:02:35 | 0:02:39 | |
'Detectives are continuing to search for the killers of a' | 0:02:41 | 0:02:45 | |
22-year-old man stabbed to death in a busy shopping area of West London. | 0:02:45 | 0:02:49 | |
It was a Friday night | 0:02:50 | 0:02:52 | |
and we got a call from a police station to say that they | 0:02:52 | 0:02:55 | |
had my son and he wanted to talk to me and he was very, very distressed. | 0:02:55 | 0:03:01 | |
The most distressed I've ever heard him. | 0:03:01 | 0:03:03 | |
And he told me that he had been arrested for murder. | 0:03:03 | 0:03:07 | |
Alex Henry had been involved in a street fight, | 0:03:07 | 0:03:10 | |
in which one of his friends had used a concealed knife to stab two | 0:03:10 | 0:03:13 | |
brothers, killing 21-year-old Taqui Khezihi. | 0:03:13 | 0:03:18 | |
Following his arrest, Alex Henry was charged with joint enterprise | 0:03:18 | 0:03:22 | |
murder, along with three other boys. | 0:03:22 | 0:03:25 | |
Did you know about joint enterprise? | 0:03:25 | 0:03:28 | |
I knew there was a law where a group of people, | 0:03:28 | 0:03:31 | |
one of them may commit the crime, | 0:03:31 | 0:03:33 | |
but the others are egging them on and they knew he was going to do it and | 0:03:33 | 0:03:37 | |
they supported him, encouraged him to do it, then that is joint enterprise. | 0:03:37 | 0:03:42 | |
And I agree with that law. | 0:03:42 | 0:03:44 | |
If my son was murdered, I would want the murderer to be charged | 0:03:44 | 0:03:50 | |
and to be sentenced for murder. | 0:03:50 | 0:03:53 | |
If the group of people that were with him had planned it | 0:03:53 | 0:03:57 | |
and intended on doing it with him, then I would agree with that law. | 0:03:57 | 0:04:01 | |
But I would not want people in that situation, | 0:04:01 | 0:04:04 | |
peripheral of that situation, | 0:04:04 | 0:04:06 | |
or involved where both groups were fighting and...I would want each | 0:04:06 | 0:04:12 | |
and every boy to be charged with what they did. | 0:04:12 | 0:04:15 | |
The use of joint enterprise raises the question - how far should | 0:04:21 | 0:04:25 | |
a person be held responsible for the unexpected actions of others? | 0:04:25 | 0:04:29 | |
In August 2011, Wayne Collins, a 24-year-old barber from Luton, | 0:04:31 | 0:04:36 | |
was about to fall foul of the law. | 0:04:36 | 0:04:39 | |
He was in Birmingham for Carnival when the riots broke out. | 0:04:41 | 0:04:46 | |
Let me explain to you about that night. | 0:04:46 | 0:04:49 | |
The CCTV footage shows my nephew | 0:04:51 | 0:04:54 | |
didn't hurt anybody, | 0:04:54 | 0:04:56 | |
he didn't pick anything up, he didn't throw anything. | 0:04:56 | 0:05:00 | |
All he was, was there. | 0:05:00 | 0:05:01 | |
What CCTV footage also showed, however, | 0:05:03 | 0:05:06 | |
was that Collins was in the crowd | 0:05:06 | 0:05:08 | |
when a hooded figure produced a gun and fired it towards the police. | 0:05:08 | 0:05:12 | |
Later that night, | 0:05:13 | 0:05:15 | |
he was arrested and charged with possession of a firearm. | 0:05:15 | 0:05:18 | |
-Officer... -Yeah. | 0:05:18 | 0:05:20 | |
-Are they trying to say that I had a firearm? -Yeah. | 0:05:20 | 0:05:23 | |
-From where, though? -Nobody's going to talk to you. | 0:05:23 | 0:05:27 | |
-So, if you've got any questions, ask them in your own mind. -Uh? | 0:05:27 | 0:05:31 | |
'You do something wrong, yes, you should be punished for it. | 0:05:31 | 0:05:35 | |
'My nephew did nothing.' | 0:05:35 | 0:05:37 | |
He knew one person, who happened to be related to another person. | 0:05:37 | 0:05:42 | |
Whether or not they were doing something, I don't know. | 0:05:42 | 0:05:45 | |
But why should you be punished for their actions? | 0:05:45 | 0:05:48 | |
The case against Wayne Collins was that | 0:05:48 | 0:05:51 | |
while he was in Birmingham, he'd met up with Jermaine Lewis, | 0:05:51 | 0:05:54 | |
whose cousin, Nicholas Francis, | 0:05:54 | 0:05:56 | |
was later convicted of using the firearm that night. | 0:05:56 | 0:06:00 | |
The police claimed that this association meant me | 0:06:00 | 0:06:03 | |
must have known about the gun and foresaw how it was going to be used. | 0:06:03 | 0:06:07 | |
-A gun? -The fact that he may have known is speculative | 0:06:07 | 0:06:09 | |
because this other guy's got a gun, he must have known he had it... | 0:06:09 | 0:06:13 | |
Well, there's nothing to base that on. | 0:06:13 | 0:06:15 | |
Must have known he was going to shoot it police, | 0:06:15 | 0:06:18 | |
rather than in the air, there's no evidence of that. | 0:06:18 | 0:06:21 | |
It's all complete speculation. | 0:06:21 | 0:06:23 | |
But that's the way that joint enterprise works. | 0:06:23 | 0:06:26 | |
How can you prove that someone knowingly knows what somebody | 0:06:26 | 0:06:30 | |
else is thinking? | 0:06:30 | 0:06:33 | |
-What's your occupation? -I'm a barber. | 0:06:33 | 0:06:36 | |
'His problem was that he was not good at giving his account.' | 0:06:36 | 0:06:40 | |
He was completely out of his depth. | 0:06:40 | 0:06:42 | |
He was in Birmingham with people he didn't know. | 0:06:42 | 0:06:44 | |
They were all members of serious gangs. | 0:06:44 | 0:06:47 | |
So when Wayne was arrested, I think he was frightened of saying | 0:06:47 | 0:06:50 | |
things and he gave a story which wasn't true to the police. | 0:06:50 | 0:06:54 | |
-What are you doing in Birmingham? -Meeting a girl. | 0:06:54 | 0:06:56 | |
-At one o'clock in the morning? -Well, obviously... | 0:06:56 | 0:06:59 | |
The guys smash up the girl's windows and they're chasing me. | 0:06:59 | 0:07:01 | |
What can you do? The girl's drove off and left me. | 0:07:01 | 0:07:04 | |
What do you want me to do? | 0:07:04 | 0:07:05 | |
'Because he would had to name the people he was with,' | 0:07:05 | 0:07:07 | |
that would have linked them with him | 0:07:07 | 0:07:10 | |
and he was actually found at the scene and they weren't. | 0:07:10 | 0:07:13 | |
On that basis, he wasn't believed and he was convicted. | 0:07:13 | 0:07:16 | |
Although there was no evidence that Collins had seen or touched | 0:07:17 | 0:07:21 | |
the gun, he was found guilty of possession of a firearm with | 0:07:21 | 0:07:24 | |
intent to endanger life and sent to prison for 18 years. | 0:07:24 | 0:07:28 | |
18 years is excessively long for somebody who has not | 0:07:32 | 0:07:36 | |
participated and is based purely on inference | 0:07:36 | 0:07:41 | |
and speculation as to what Wayne may have known. | 0:07:41 | 0:07:45 | |
Concerns about joint enterprise are echoed at the highest | 0:07:46 | 0:07:50 | |
level of the legal establishment | 0:07:50 | 0:07:52 | |
and have led one recently retired senior judge to take the | 0:07:52 | 0:07:56 | |
unusual step of publicly criticising the way the law is being used. | 0:07:56 | 0:08:00 | |
Let's take a murder case. | 0:08:00 | 0:08:02 | |
A person can't normally be convicted of murder unless he intended | 0:08:02 | 0:08:07 | |
to kill or intended to cause serious, very serious, bodily harm. | 0:08:07 | 0:08:14 | |
But in joint enterprise, | 0:08:14 | 0:08:16 | |
instead of having to intend to kill someone, it's enough if he foresaw | 0:08:16 | 0:08:22 | |
that someone might be killed, but it's a very low threshold. | 0:08:22 | 0:08:27 | |
You can think of many situations in your life where you foresee | 0:08:27 | 0:08:31 | |
that something might happen, but you certainly don't intend it to happen, | 0:08:31 | 0:08:35 | |
in any way at all. | 0:08:35 | 0:08:38 | |
Whatever their misgivings, judges are obliged by law to impose | 0:08:38 | 0:08:43 | |
life sentences on anyone convicted of joint enterprise murder. | 0:08:43 | 0:08:47 | |
Alex Henry has been on remand for five months and is discovering | 0:08:52 | 0:08:56 | |
how difficult it is to fight a charge under joint enterprise. | 0:08:56 | 0:09:00 | |
He was speaking to the solicitor and the solicitor was like, "Joint | 0:09:00 | 0:09:03 | |
enterprise murder is 25 years," and he was just like, "But how? | 0:09:03 | 0:09:08 | |
"I didn't know there was a knife." And he went, "Yeah, I know. | 0:09:08 | 0:09:11 | |
"But they're going to try and prove that you knew there was a knife," | 0:09:11 | 0:09:14 | |
and he was like, "But how do they know what I'm thinking? | 0:09:14 | 0:09:17 | |
"How am I looking now at 25 years for shopping with someone that may | 0:09:17 | 0:09:21 | |
"or may not have had a knife?" | 0:09:21 | 0:09:24 | |
We spoke to the barristers yesterday and they were really helpful. | 0:09:24 | 0:09:28 | |
'What was their perspective on the case as it stands at the moment?' | 0:09:28 | 0:09:31 | |
We asked them that. | 0:09:31 | 0:09:32 | |
We said, "Roughly, what do you think?" And they said, "50-50." | 0:09:32 | 0:09:37 | |
I mean, when I came out of that meeting, I thought - | 0:09:37 | 0:09:39 | |
things are getting worse. | 0:09:39 | 0:09:41 | |
I had a secret hope we'd go in there and they'd say, | 0:09:41 | 0:09:44 | |
"Listen, he's clearly innocent. The jury will know he's innocent. | 0:09:44 | 0:09:49 | |
"He probably won't even get anything." | 0:09:49 | 0:09:53 | |
The person that did commit the murder, I believe, will be | 0:09:53 | 0:09:56 | |
denying it, so without any independent witnesses seeing | 0:09:56 | 0:10:00 | |
a knife, none of the boys that | 0:10:00 | 0:10:02 | |
didn't do it, seeing a knife, who's to know who actually had this knife? | 0:10:02 | 0:10:05 | |
Who's to know who committed it? | 0:10:05 | 0:10:07 | |
-So I think that's our first task of them finding it... -Who did it. | 0:10:07 | 0:10:13 | |
Well, we know who done it, but the jury seeing who done it. | 0:10:13 | 0:10:17 | |
And then, second to that, proving that the other three | 0:10:17 | 0:10:21 | |
co-defendants didn't know about the knife. | 0:10:21 | 0:10:25 | |
The effectiveness of joint enterprise in securing | 0:10:25 | 0:10:29 | |
multiple convictions for a single crime was | 0:10:29 | 0:10:32 | |
demonstrated following the murder of Ben Kinsella in 2008. | 0:10:32 | 0:10:37 | |
'This CCTV shows the events immediately before Ben's death. | 0:10:37 | 0:10:41 | |
'His acquaintances are being chased up an Islington | 0:10:41 | 0:10:44 | |
'street by the defendants.' | 0:10:44 | 0:10:46 | |
Three men were charged with the killing | 0:10:46 | 0:10:49 | |
and although it was never proved which one of them stabbed Ben, | 0:10:49 | 0:10:52 | |
using joint enterprise, they were all found guilty of murder. | 0:10:52 | 0:10:55 | |
All three of them knew what they were doing. They came armed with knives. | 0:10:55 | 0:10:59 | |
He was stabbed... Within five seconds, he was stabbed 11 times. | 0:10:59 | 0:11:05 | |
So... | 0:11:05 | 0:11:07 | |
Yeah, I hold them all responsible. | 0:11:07 | 0:11:09 | |
Not one of them tried to stop the other two from doing it. | 0:11:09 | 0:11:14 | |
Not one of them assisted my son while he was bleeding on the floor. | 0:11:14 | 0:11:19 | |
There was none of that. | 0:11:19 | 0:11:21 | |
So...as far as I'm concerned, they're all culpable for it. | 0:11:21 | 0:11:27 | |
Without joint enterprise, probably maybe one or maybe even | 0:11:27 | 0:11:32 | |
two of them would still be walking the streets today. | 0:11:32 | 0:11:36 | |
The public demonstration which followed Ben's death | 0:11:36 | 0:11:39 | |
reflected wide support for the principle that all those involved | 0:11:39 | 0:11:42 | |
in a murder, however peripherally, should be held to account. | 0:11:42 | 0:11:46 | |
If a gang of kids or men or whatever want to go out | 0:11:46 | 0:11:52 | |
and commit these sort of crimes, then they've got to know that | 0:11:52 | 0:11:55 | |
if they are part of it or involved in it, | 0:11:55 | 0:11:58 | |
then they're going to be held responsible. | 0:11:58 | 0:12:01 | |
In 2010, 16-year-old Nicholas Pearton was stabbed to | 0:12:12 | 0:12:17 | |
death in a South London street. | 0:12:17 | 0:12:19 | |
The police need to stop this. Do you know what I mean? | 0:12:23 | 0:12:27 | |
Before all of our children die. You know? | 0:12:27 | 0:12:30 | |
Parents aren't meant to bury their children. You know? | 0:12:30 | 0:12:34 | |
And to see the state of his mother last night, well, | 0:12:34 | 0:12:37 | |
she was just literally uncontrollable. | 0:12:37 | 0:12:40 | |
Nine teenagers were eventually charged with his murder. | 0:12:40 | 0:12:45 | |
The prosecuting counsel was Edward Brown. | 0:12:45 | 0:12:49 | |
There was a dreadful killing in May 2010. | 0:12:49 | 0:12:53 | |
A young boy was chased across a park, across a road, | 0:12:53 | 0:12:56 | |
stabbed in the middle of the road by one person. | 0:12:56 | 0:13:00 | |
He received a stab wound to his back. | 0:13:00 | 0:13:02 | |
It proved fatal, within seconds. | 0:13:02 | 0:13:03 | |
The trigger for the murder was a school gate confrontation between | 0:13:06 | 0:13:10 | |
two boys from the Grove Park area and two boys from nearby Sydenham. | 0:13:10 | 0:13:14 | |
Nothing serious happened. No blows were exchanged. | 0:13:16 | 0:13:21 | |
And the boys from Grove Park went back home, | 0:13:21 | 0:13:23 | |
to their various homes, | 0:13:23 | 0:13:25 | |
and a plan was said to be hatched to travel to the Sydenham area | 0:13:25 | 0:13:29 | |
and mark this disrespect by finding | 0:13:29 | 0:13:33 | |
and probably chasing the Sydenham boys and showing them that they | 0:13:33 | 0:13:37 | |
can't get away with just doing this at the school gates. | 0:13:37 | 0:13:41 | |
The group from Grove Park travelled by bus | 0:13:41 | 0:13:44 | |
and met the Sydenham boys in the park on their home turf. | 0:13:44 | 0:13:47 | |
The Sydenham gang ran away, only to return a few minutes later, | 0:13:47 | 0:13:51 | |
brandishing weapons. | 0:13:51 | 0:13:53 | |
There was a brief stand-off and no blows were exchanged, but as it | 0:13:54 | 0:13:59 | |
finished, Nicholas Pearton found himself isolated from his friends. | 0:13:59 | 0:14:04 | |
He was chased out of the park and into Sydenham Road, | 0:14:04 | 0:14:07 | |
where he was stabbed once in the back. | 0:14:07 | 0:14:10 | |
He died in the doorway of a shop, protecting | 0:14:10 | 0:14:14 | |
himself from another person who was seeking to attack him further. | 0:14:14 | 0:14:18 | |
The case was heard at the Old Bailey in January 2011. | 0:14:21 | 0:14:25 | |
Although only one boy had stabbed Nicholas Pearton, | 0:14:26 | 0:14:30 | |
nine were charged with his murder. | 0:14:30 | 0:14:32 | |
Joint enterprise, it's called. It's not a statutory definition. | 0:14:34 | 0:14:39 | |
It's an ordinary expression. | 0:14:39 | 0:14:41 | |
The public, I suspect, would approve of a secondary party, | 0:14:41 | 0:14:47 | |
not the stabber or the shooter, | 0:14:47 | 0:14:50 | |
but the secondary party being convicted of a serious crime, | 0:14:50 | 0:14:54 | |
if they were participating, by for example, | 0:14:54 | 0:14:57 | |
encouraging the gunman or the knifeman. | 0:14:57 | 0:15:01 | |
Of the boys charged with murder, | 0:15:02 | 0:15:04 | |
only three were in the street at the time of the stabbing. | 0:15:04 | 0:15:08 | |
The rest were scattered over the area where the fight had | 0:15:08 | 0:15:11 | |
taken place. | 0:15:11 | 0:15:13 | |
One of them, 15-year-old Joseph Jay, | 0:15:13 | 0:15:15 | |
claimed to be at the other end of the park. | 0:15:15 | 0:15:19 | |
I've described the law of joint enterprise as a drift net. | 0:15:19 | 0:15:23 | |
You drop your drift net into the ocean | 0:15:23 | 0:15:25 | |
and you pull out all sorts of fish, big and small, | 0:15:25 | 0:15:28 | |
and you hope that someone's going to chuck the small fish back in before | 0:15:28 | 0:15:32 | |
it's too late, but you can never be sure that's going to happen. | 0:15:32 | 0:15:36 | |
-That looks like it's reversing... -Let the car through. | 0:15:42 | 0:15:45 | |
Oh, I see. | 0:15:45 | 0:15:47 | |
Alex Henry's family have been given CCTV footage by his lawyers, | 0:15:47 | 0:15:51 | |
showing the lead up to the fight. | 0:15:51 | 0:15:54 | |
They're viewing it for the first time. | 0:15:54 | 0:15:57 | |
-OK, so that's the... -They're going to the car. | 0:15:57 | 0:16:00 | |
The confrontation happening down there, so there's four now. | 0:16:00 | 0:16:05 | |
And now, they're... He's trying to split it up. | 0:16:05 | 0:16:07 | |
-Trying to pull him away. -Yeah, he's... | 0:16:07 | 0:16:10 | |
It's very, very clear that he's trying to stop them from fighting. | 0:16:10 | 0:16:13 | |
-Yeah. -One of them. And that's one of the friends of my son. | 0:16:13 | 0:16:17 | |
The boy doing his best to break up the fight is Younis Tayyib. | 0:16:17 | 0:16:22 | |
He's one of the four on remand for the murder. | 0:16:22 | 0:16:25 | |
-Oh... Gosh, he is trying hard, isn't he? -Mm. | 0:16:25 | 0:16:29 | |
The boy behind Younis, carrying the bottle, | 0:16:29 | 0:16:33 | |
is another of Alex's co-defendants, Janhelle Grant-Murray. | 0:16:33 | 0:16:37 | |
OK, so now they're coming around the corner. | 0:16:37 | 0:16:40 | |
My son isn't here in this at all. | 0:16:42 | 0:16:44 | |
They go round there, I think. | 0:16:45 | 0:16:48 | |
Alex, who had been shopping with his friend Cameron Ferguson, | 0:16:48 | 0:16:51 | |
runs into the altercation when he sees Younis | 0:16:51 | 0:16:54 | |
-and Janhelle on the other side of the road. -There. -There they are. | 0:16:54 | 0:16:57 | |
They're running there now | 0:16:57 | 0:16:59 | |
because they're running really fast cos they've seen their friends. | 0:16:59 | 0:17:02 | |
The fight, which lasts less than 45 seconds, takes place | 0:17:02 | 0:17:05 | |
in an area not covered by CCTV cameras. | 0:17:05 | 0:17:09 | |
The first boy to leave the fight is carrying what later proved to | 0:17:13 | 0:17:17 | |
be the fatal weapon. | 0:17:17 | 0:17:18 | |
There he is. Stop. There. Now. See? | 0:17:18 | 0:17:21 | |
-This is the bag, here. -And it's sticking out... -It's sticking out! | 0:17:21 | 0:17:25 | |
A plastic bag doesn't stick out like that, | 0:17:25 | 0:17:27 | |
unless it's got something in it that is long. | 0:17:27 | 0:17:30 | |
The running boy, | 0:17:30 | 0:17:32 | |
who confessed later that day to the other three that he'd used | 0:17:32 | 0:17:35 | |
a concealed knife in the fight, is the 19-year-old Cameron Ferguson. | 0:17:35 | 0:17:39 | |
'Do you feel that there's been enough emphasis on finding which of | 0:17:41 | 0:17:45 | |
'the four were actually responsible for stabbing the victim?' | 0:17:45 | 0:17:49 | |
No. I think they just want to put them all in the frame. | 0:17:49 | 0:17:52 | |
They're all there. | 0:17:52 | 0:17:54 | |
They know one of the four did it and as they are allowed to, | 0:17:54 | 0:17:58 | |
under joint enterprise, they can scoop them all up in one go. | 0:17:58 | 0:18:01 | |
They don't have to find out, really, who out of the four did it. | 0:18:01 | 0:18:05 | |
Makes their job easier, really, doesn't it? | 0:18:05 | 0:18:08 | |
Two years after his conviction for possession of a firearm, | 0:18:13 | 0:18:17 | |
Wayne Collins' appeal is being heard at the Royal Courts of Justice. | 0:18:17 | 0:18:21 | |
We appealed against the conviction, | 0:18:21 | 0:18:23 | |
but it's difficult to appeal against a conviction because you have | 0:18:23 | 0:18:26 | |
to show there is some error in the judge's summing up. | 0:18:26 | 0:18:29 | |
There must be error of law. | 0:18:29 | 0:18:32 | |
On the 18 years, our case was this is disproportionate for somebody | 0:18:32 | 0:18:38 | |
who is described as playing no active role in the event. | 0:18:38 | 0:18:42 | |
Deborah Taylor, Wayne's aunt, has been | 0:18:45 | 0:18:47 | |
fronting the family's campaign for his release. | 0:18:47 | 0:18:50 | |
I've come out here today to the Royal Courts of Justice a lot more | 0:18:50 | 0:18:54 | |
confident in the justice system than what | 0:18:54 | 0:18:57 | |
I felt two-and-a-half years ago on the trial. | 0:18:57 | 0:19:00 | |
There is a way that, you know, with persevering and campaigning, | 0:19:00 | 0:19:04 | |
we can get this sentence reduced. | 0:19:04 | 0:19:06 | |
That's great. That's all I need from you. | 0:19:07 | 0:19:10 | |
It went really well. James dusted them. | 0:19:10 | 0:19:13 | |
James said the judge misled them. How he delivered it, Mum, was amazing. | 0:19:13 | 0:19:17 | |
Amazing! Amazing! | 0:19:17 | 0:19:19 | |
-'Is the family hopeful?' -We are, yeah. We are. | 0:19:21 | 0:19:25 | |
Reduction in sentence. You know? | 0:19:25 | 0:19:29 | |
Definitely. So, yeah, it's good. Happy. There's hope. | 0:19:29 | 0:19:32 | |
And at the end of the day, thank God there's an appeal court. | 0:19:32 | 0:19:38 | |
Wayne Collins' family will now have to wait | 0:19:40 | 0:19:43 | |
until the ruling is handed down by the judges. | 0:19:43 | 0:19:45 | |
This picture of my daughter | 0:19:50 | 0:19:52 | |
and my brother was taken about nine months ago in jail. | 0:19:52 | 0:19:56 | |
As you can see, she loves him a lot. | 0:19:56 | 0:19:59 | |
And he looks completely different to his mugshot. | 0:19:59 | 0:20:03 | |
We just thought, tops, they'll hold him three days, | 0:20:03 | 0:20:06 | |
and he'll come home and we'll go through it together | 0:20:06 | 0:20:10 | |
till we get to court, | 0:20:10 | 0:20:12 | |
but as the days went on, the weeks, the months, | 0:20:12 | 0:20:16 | |
we started thinking, "What's going on?" | 0:20:16 | 0:20:18 | |
And then we realised that he was | 0:20:18 | 0:20:20 | |
probably going to get an example made of him... | 0:20:20 | 0:20:22 | |
-Yeah. -..but didn't think it was going to be 18 years. | 0:20:22 | 0:20:26 | |
He's involved in everybody in our family and our lives, | 0:20:26 | 0:20:29 | |
so somebody being taken away for 18 years, you know, | 0:20:29 | 0:20:32 | |
in a very small involvement of a crime. | 0:20:32 | 0:20:35 | |
I don't see the justice in that, as his father. | 0:20:35 | 0:20:38 | |
The main thing that comes to mind is Alex is very kind and sweet. | 0:20:46 | 0:20:51 | |
He's the only one, really, out of all of my family | 0:20:51 | 0:20:54 | |
that can tell if I'm upset just at a glance. | 0:20:54 | 0:20:56 | |
He'll just come in and I'll be looking away and he'll be, | 0:20:56 | 0:20:58 | |
"What's happened? What's happened? Are you OK?" | 0:20:58 | 0:21:01 | |
He's very protective of, like, his family, and especially me and my mum. | 0:21:01 | 0:21:06 | |
He's really smart, as well. | 0:21:06 | 0:21:08 | |
When we were younger, he was really, really good at maths. | 0:21:08 | 0:21:13 | |
He flourished at school. | 0:21:13 | 0:21:16 | |
The teachers told me he was outstanding. | 0:21:16 | 0:21:19 | |
But then he developed what they classified him as having ADHD | 0:21:19 | 0:21:22 | |
and he couldn't sit still in the classroom. | 0:21:22 | 0:21:24 | |
They perceived that to be aggression and bad behaviour, | 0:21:24 | 0:21:28 | |
when actually it's a child who needs to be reassured | 0:21:28 | 0:21:32 | |
and needs a safe environment. He was expelled when he was 11. | 0:21:32 | 0:21:37 | |
Once you're kicked out of school, | 0:21:37 | 0:21:38 | |
you're sent to these alternative provisions. | 0:21:38 | 0:21:41 | |
No child that likes education is actually going to want to go | 0:21:41 | 0:21:43 | |
to one of these things, cos it's not really teaching, | 0:21:43 | 0:21:46 | |
it's just a place for them to be off the street. | 0:21:46 | 0:21:48 | |
I did feel like I was losing him. | 0:21:51 | 0:21:53 | |
I was losing him to his friends and I didn't know who they were. | 0:21:53 | 0:21:56 | |
He seemed to have a whole world that he was involved in | 0:21:56 | 0:21:59 | |
when I was at work and he wasn't at school. | 0:21:59 | 0:22:02 | |
This... It was an incredibly difficult, impossible situation. | 0:22:02 | 0:22:08 | |
I've read books and articles and no-one ever talks about it, | 0:22:08 | 0:22:11 | |
because people are ashamed. | 0:22:11 | 0:22:13 | |
They're ashamed to say that, "I lost control of...of my child." | 0:22:13 | 0:22:17 | |
Seven months after his arrest, | 0:22:24 | 0:22:26 | |
Alex Henry's trial has started at the Old Bailey. | 0:22:26 | 0:22:29 | |
All four co-defendants are pleading not guilty to charges of murder | 0:22:29 | 0:22:34 | |
and attempted murder. | 0:22:34 | 0:22:36 | |
The prosecution case is that each of them played a part | 0:22:36 | 0:22:39 | |
in a joint attack on Taqui Khezihi and his brother - | 0:22:39 | 0:22:42 | |
each knew about a knife and intended it would be used to stab. | 0:22:42 | 0:22:46 | |
On the fifth day of the trial, there is a dramatic development. | 0:22:48 | 0:22:51 | |
The judge called all the boys back in and asked Cameron Ferguson his plea. | 0:22:51 | 0:22:56 | |
Again, for both counts of murder and GBH with intent | 0:22:56 | 0:23:01 | |
and he pleaded guilty to both counts. | 0:23:01 | 0:23:04 | |
We are very pleased that the person who did it has been honest enough | 0:23:04 | 0:23:08 | |
and courageous enough, without any family around him to support him, | 0:23:08 | 0:23:12 | |
to hold up his hands and say that it was him. | 0:23:12 | 0:23:15 | |
It gives all of the families peace of mind to know that | 0:23:15 | 0:23:18 | |
that knowledge is out there now. | 0:23:18 | 0:23:21 | |
So that's really positive. | 0:23:21 | 0:23:23 | |
However, we're still proceeding with the trial, | 0:23:23 | 0:23:26 | |
because they're still trying to get the three other boys | 0:23:26 | 0:23:29 | |
in on the murder, as well. | 0:23:29 | 0:23:31 | |
They're going to seek to prove that they knew about the knife. | 0:23:31 | 0:23:34 | |
We know that that can't be proven, | 0:23:34 | 0:23:35 | |
but they're going to seek to prove it nonetheless | 0:23:35 | 0:23:38 | |
and we've just got to pray that the jury see the truth. | 0:23:38 | 0:23:41 | |
Despite the change of plea, | 0:23:45 | 0:23:47 | |
Alex's family are concerned that the jury will not be impressed | 0:23:47 | 0:23:51 | |
by his behaviour immediately after the fight. | 0:23:51 | 0:23:54 | |
He knew the police were looking for him, | 0:23:54 | 0:23:56 | |
but wanted to avoid arrest for three days | 0:23:56 | 0:23:59 | |
so he could attend his pregnant girlfriend's first scan. | 0:23:59 | 0:24:02 | |
And even though by this time Cameron had told him he'd used a knife, | 0:24:03 | 0:24:07 | |
the two of them went to hide out in a friend's flat in Croydon. | 0:24:07 | 0:24:11 | |
He got to Croydon and news reports start coming in | 0:24:11 | 0:24:15 | |
and he eventually realises there's been a fatality. | 0:24:15 | 0:24:18 | |
Alex calls me and he says, | 0:24:18 | 0:24:20 | |
"Look, Charlotte, my girlfriend's pregnant. Now, you need to pick me up | 0:24:20 | 0:24:24 | |
"and you need to take me and her to the scan." | 0:24:24 | 0:24:26 | |
I'm very excited, I'm... I was lost at the word "pregnant". | 0:24:26 | 0:24:30 | |
I'm like "What's Mum going to say? I'm so excited." And he goes, | 0:24:30 | 0:24:34 | |
"No, no, Charlotte, you must listen to the rest I've got to tell you. | 0:24:34 | 0:24:37 | |
"Something really bad has happened. | 0:24:37 | 0:24:40 | |
"I can't tell you what it is, because I don't want you to get in trouble, | 0:24:40 | 0:24:43 | |
"but you need to pick me up, you need to take me to the scan | 0:24:43 | 0:24:46 | |
"and then you need to take me to the solicitors | 0:24:46 | 0:24:49 | |
"and then take me to the police station." | 0:24:49 | 0:24:50 | |
So I planned to pick him up on the Friday, | 0:24:50 | 0:24:53 | |
but unfortunately on the Thursday night Alex is arrested. | 0:24:53 | 0:24:57 | |
For every family that sees joint enterprise as a threat | 0:24:59 | 0:25:02 | |
to the liberty of their loved ones, | 0:25:02 | 0:25:04 | |
there are others who believe it was their only way of securing justice. | 0:25:04 | 0:25:08 | |
That's Umar. | 0:25:09 | 0:25:11 | |
(RAPS) And if we had nothing we'd eat with bare hands | 0:25:14 | 0:25:16 | |
And I'm not going to lie I do have bear's hands | 0:25:16 | 0:25:19 | |
It's a hot day and I hear a glass break | 0:25:19 | 0:25:21 | |
Then I find a fast way to pass... | 0:25:21 | 0:25:23 | |
Umar Tufail was forging a music career | 0:25:23 | 0:25:26 | |
when he was murdered in a drive-by shooting in 2012. | 0:25:26 | 0:25:31 | |
INDISTINCT | 0:25:31 | 0:25:35 | |
That's it, cut. | 0:25:35 | 0:25:36 | |
-Just one of the... -So full of life. -He was, wasn't he? -And fun. | 0:25:41 | 0:25:47 | |
-He was. -Do you know? Sometimes, I do believe in the death penalty. | 0:25:49 | 0:25:53 | |
Because they took more than just his life, they destroyed Saj's, | 0:25:53 | 0:25:57 | |
his family's, his girlfriend's, any chance of ever having kids. | 0:25:57 | 0:26:03 | |
It's...it's extremely difficult. | 0:26:03 | 0:26:06 | |
Our lives will never be the same again. | 0:26:06 | 0:26:08 | |
Umar was sitting in his car outside his home here in Thornton Heath | 0:26:08 | 0:26:12 | |
when Daley and Thomas drove up alongside him. | 0:26:12 | 0:26:15 | |
They pulled out a gun and shot him once at point-blank range. | 0:26:15 | 0:26:18 | |
There was one shooter. But there were two people involved from the offset. | 0:26:18 | 0:26:22 | |
There was a lot of CCTV footage of the two lads together. | 0:26:22 | 0:26:26 | |
The accomplice was in the car. | 0:26:26 | 0:26:29 | |
He saw the shooter take out the gun and he admittedly said that | 0:26:29 | 0:26:33 | |
when the person who shot my son pulled out the gun, | 0:26:33 | 0:26:36 | |
he leaned back to make room for him to carry out his horrendous crime. | 0:26:36 | 0:26:42 | |
In my mind, I knew that they both were equally responsible. | 0:26:42 | 0:26:45 | |
So I think having joint enterprise really does | 0:26:45 | 0:26:49 | |
give you that peace of mind, | 0:26:49 | 0:26:50 | |
although I'll never be happy that my son has gone, | 0:26:50 | 0:26:53 | |
but at least we managed to convict both people | 0:26:53 | 0:26:56 | |
who were guilty of the crime that they committed. | 0:26:56 | 0:26:59 | |
RAP MUSIC PLAYS | 0:26:59 | 0:27:03 | |
Since the death of Umar, Saj has been on a mission | 0:27:06 | 0:27:10 | |
to warn young people about the dangers of gang crime. | 0:27:10 | 0:27:13 | |
The shooter got 25 years. | 0:27:16 | 0:27:19 | |
The accomplice, 22 without any parole. | 0:27:19 | 0:27:24 | |
These are two young men who had a life ahead of themselves. | 0:27:24 | 0:27:27 | |
Not only have they taken my son's life, | 0:27:27 | 0:27:30 | |
but they've also destroyed theirs. | 0:27:30 | 0:27:32 | |
So joint enterprise is there for a purpose | 0:27:32 | 0:27:36 | |
and it's there for a purpose when people are involved from the offset. | 0:27:36 | 0:27:39 | |
Thanks for listening. | 0:27:39 | 0:27:41 | |
CLAPPING | 0:27:41 | 0:27:43 | |
Is there a way to honestly prove to a court that you did not know | 0:27:47 | 0:27:51 | |
if your friend was going to commit a crime? | 0:27:51 | 0:27:53 | |
You know that you didn't know, but you might not be able to prove it. | 0:27:53 | 0:27:56 | |
That's the problem. That's why people get sentenced when they can't prove it. | 0:27:56 | 0:27:59 | |
It's the circumstances. It's the way the thing is set, isn't it? | 0:27:59 | 0:28:02 | |
You live in Loughborough, | 0:28:02 | 0:28:04 | |
I live in Loughborough, they ain't going to believe us. | 0:28:04 | 0:28:06 | |
You, you're from Loughborough, | 0:28:06 | 0:28:08 | |
I went to the same school as David Cameron | 0:28:08 | 0:28:10 | |
and I grew up with him and I'm in a car with you | 0:28:10 | 0:28:12 | |
and I didn't know, they'll believe you. It's the circumstances. | 0:28:12 | 0:28:16 | |
It's where you come from, at the end of the day. | 0:28:16 | 0:28:19 | |
Even in your situation, you get me? | 0:28:19 | 0:28:21 | |
The sad thing is that guy that was in the car, what's he going to do? | 0:28:21 | 0:28:24 | |
Sit in the passenger side and keep his head there? | 0:28:24 | 0:28:26 | |
Man was going to fire, you're going to move back anyway. | 0:28:26 | 0:28:29 | |
If you're in the car with me, and I pull out a gun | 0:28:29 | 0:28:31 | |
and go to shoot someone, you'll move. | 0:28:31 | 0:28:33 | |
The thing is, someone has to make a stand and say, | 0:28:33 | 0:28:35 | |
"What you did there was wrong." I can understand where you're coming from, | 0:28:35 | 0:28:38 | |
you don't want to snitch on someone. | 0:28:38 | 0:28:40 | |
But equally when are we going to stop doing this? | 0:28:40 | 0:28:43 | |
There are young children dying almost every day. | 0:28:43 | 0:28:45 | |
We don't live in a country where there's a civil war. | 0:28:45 | 0:28:49 | |
Do we? So someone has to stand up and say, | 0:28:49 | 0:28:52 | |
"This isn't the way to do it. We've got to make a stand | 0:28:52 | 0:28:55 | |
"and we've got to stop this." | 0:28:55 | 0:28:57 | |
I can't do it. It has to come from you guys. | 0:28:57 | 0:28:59 | |
Let me ask you this question - | 0:28:59 | 0:29:02 | |
do you think that the joint enterprise | 0:29:02 | 0:29:04 | |
is convicting innocent people? | 0:29:04 | 0:29:06 | |
-Yeah. -Yeah. 110%. -110%? -110%. | 0:29:06 | 0:29:10 | |
Definite. Definitely. It is. | 0:29:10 | 0:29:12 | |
We know that joint enterprise will exist, it's not perfect. | 0:29:12 | 0:29:16 | |
Because it's very clear that the innocent can be taken down | 0:29:16 | 0:29:19 | |
with the guilty quite easily. | 0:29:19 | 0:29:20 | |
But at the moment there's high crime, there's areas | 0:29:20 | 0:29:23 | |
where things are happening, and we know what the police is going to do. | 0:29:23 | 0:29:26 | |
They are only interested in one thing - | 0:29:26 | 0:29:28 | |
getting you, taking you down, putting you inside | 0:29:28 | 0:29:30 | |
and the taxpayers' money paying for you whilst you're inside. | 0:29:30 | 0:29:32 | |
Money's being made, millions is being made, yeah? | 0:29:32 | 0:29:36 | |
And you're not seeing none of it. All right. OK, thank you very much. | 0:29:36 | 0:29:40 | |
Listen, there is... You guys, go and get yourself pizzas and food... | 0:29:40 | 0:29:44 | |
Alex Henry's trial is into its third week | 0:29:51 | 0:29:54 | |
and it's his turn to take the stand and give his evidence. | 0:29:54 | 0:29:58 | |
Alex will be...nervous this morning. I'm nervous. | 0:29:58 | 0:30:04 | |
Yeah, I think we all are. | 0:30:04 | 0:30:07 | |
Hopefully it'll be over by Friday. | 0:30:09 | 0:30:12 | |
Then we've just got the horrible wait | 0:30:12 | 0:30:14 | |
-and that's going to be horrendous. -Yeah. | 0:30:14 | 0:30:16 | |
I hope he doesn't faint when he's on the stand. | 0:30:18 | 0:30:21 | |
He's fainted before, hasn't he, Charlotte? | 0:30:21 | 0:30:24 | |
It's horrible, | 0:30:24 | 0:30:26 | |
sometimes you hear them screaming going down to the cells, don't you? | 0:30:26 | 0:30:29 | |
What? Yelling stuff? | 0:30:29 | 0:30:30 | |
Yeah. That must be if they get a bad sentence or something. | 0:30:30 | 0:30:33 | |
The other day, it was someone making a real noise. I know. | 0:30:33 | 0:30:36 | |
Alex spends two days in the witness box. | 0:30:46 | 0:30:49 | |
On the second day, he's cross-examined by the prosecution. | 0:30:49 | 0:30:53 | |
Sometimes it's said, | 0:30:53 | 0:30:54 | |
"Well, how does a defendant prove he didn't know the person had a knife?" | 0:30:54 | 0:30:59 | |
Of course, that is exceptionally difficult. | 0:30:59 | 0:31:02 | |
I think everybody should understand that proving lack of knowledge | 0:31:02 | 0:31:07 | |
is not altogether easy for a young man in the witness box | 0:31:07 | 0:31:11 | |
at the Old Bailey. | 0:31:11 | 0:31:12 | |
So how do you think he did on the witness stand? | 0:31:16 | 0:31:19 | |
He did really good. | 0:31:19 | 0:31:21 | |
Really good. | 0:31:21 | 0:31:23 | |
His evidence that he gave was flawless, | 0:31:23 | 0:31:25 | |
it was just everything that had been said in his original statement | 0:31:25 | 0:31:29 | |
and everything he says is then also said by these other co-defendants, | 0:31:29 | 0:31:35 | |
they all say the exact same story. | 0:31:35 | 0:31:37 | |
And considering they've never been allowed to speak together, | 0:31:37 | 0:31:40 | |
they've been in separate prisons, they've been in separate cells, | 0:31:40 | 0:31:43 | |
they are not allowed to talk to each other. | 0:31:43 | 0:31:46 | |
You can't come up with stories that perfect and have them as lies. | 0:31:46 | 0:31:52 | |
So it couldn't have gone better, really. | 0:31:52 | 0:31:55 | |
In June 2011, the jury reached their verdicts in the trial | 0:32:03 | 0:32:07 | |
of those accused of Nicholas Pearton's murder. | 0:32:07 | 0:32:10 | |
Seven teenage killers were sentenced to a total of 74 years in jail today | 0:32:10 | 0:32:15 | |
for the murder of a 16-year-old in broad daylight. | 0:32:15 | 0:32:18 | |
What the youth of today need to understand, | 0:32:18 | 0:32:20 | |
that small minority that do carry knives | 0:32:20 | 0:32:23 | |
are actually in a group with knives. | 0:32:23 | 0:32:25 | |
It isn't the one that delivers the fatal blow | 0:32:25 | 0:32:28 | |
that will suffer consequences and punishment at court, | 0:32:28 | 0:32:31 | |
it'll be also those that actually are with him, as well. | 0:32:31 | 0:32:35 | |
Seven boys were found guilty of homicide offences - | 0:32:35 | 0:32:39 | |
four for manslaughter and three for murder. | 0:32:39 | 0:32:42 | |
Dale Green was the stabber | 0:32:42 | 0:32:44 | |
and Lamarr Gordon, who was alongside him in the chase, | 0:32:44 | 0:32:47 | |
was held to be the gang leader. | 0:32:47 | 0:32:50 | |
CCTV footage showed the two of them shaking hands | 0:32:50 | 0:32:53 | |
shortly after the stabbing. | 0:32:53 | 0:32:55 | |
The third boy convicted of murder was 15-year-old Joseph. | 0:32:57 | 0:33:01 | |
My client, Joseph, was at the opposite end of the park | 0:33:03 | 0:33:06 | |
when the stabbing happened. | 0:33:06 | 0:33:08 | |
And we showed that because there was a 999 call at the time from a | 0:33:08 | 0:33:12 | |
witness who was quite clear in her description of a boy with sunglasses. | 0:33:12 | 0:33:16 | |
My client was wearing sunglasses, | 0:33:16 | 0:33:18 | |
because he has an eye condition. | 0:33:18 | 0:33:20 | |
You can't beat hard evidence, which is the timing of the call | 0:33:20 | 0:33:25 | |
to when Joseph exits the park, the CCTV real-time | 0:33:25 | 0:33:29 | |
and if you collect all that together, | 0:33:29 | 0:33:32 | |
it works out that Joseph was 220m away | 0:33:32 | 0:33:35 | |
whilst Lamarr Gordon and Dale Green had exited the park. | 0:33:35 | 0:33:38 | |
30 seconds later, as Joseph comes out of the park, | 0:33:38 | 0:33:42 | |
Nicholas Pearton was already dead. | 0:33:42 | 0:33:44 | |
So what was the prosecution case against him? | 0:33:44 | 0:33:48 | |
The prosecution relied on the fact that Joseph's DNA was on a knife | 0:33:48 | 0:33:53 | |
that had been found afterwards. | 0:33:53 | 0:33:56 | |
Joseph accepted that he had picked up two knives in the park | 0:33:56 | 0:34:01 | |
after they had been discarded by the other group. | 0:34:01 | 0:34:04 | |
Now you might think that sounds quite ludicrous, | 0:34:04 | 0:34:07 | |
but the prosecution witnesses | 0:34:07 | 0:34:10 | |
describe the other group discarding weapons in the park. | 0:34:10 | 0:34:13 | |
Although neither of the knives that Joseph picked up | 0:34:14 | 0:34:16 | |
was the murder weapon, | 0:34:16 | 0:34:18 | |
this was enough to show he knew that knives were present. | 0:34:18 | 0:34:23 | |
It was then up to the jury to decide whether he foresaw | 0:34:23 | 0:34:26 | |
that they might be used by someone else to cause serious harm. | 0:34:26 | 0:34:29 | |
The use of joint enterprise in theory doesn't dilute the usual principles | 0:34:31 | 0:34:36 | |
of the prosecution having to prove their case | 0:34:36 | 0:34:39 | |
and having to make the jury sure. | 0:34:39 | 0:34:42 | |
But what it does is it places an enormous burden on a jury | 0:34:42 | 0:34:45 | |
to read the minds of defendants, | 0:34:46 | 0:34:49 | |
who are themselves required to read the minds of other defendants. | 0:34:49 | 0:34:54 | |
And I think that's a burden | 0:34:54 | 0:34:56 | |
that probably they shouldn't have to carry. | 0:34:56 | 0:34:58 | |
Of course, we are told anything can happen, | 0:34:58 | 0:35:02 | |
a jury can deliver any verdict. | 0:35:02 | 0:35:06 | |
No guarantee, anything not 100% but we still believed, | 0:35:06 | 0:35:12 | |
because he didn't have an intention to harm anyone. He should be OK. | 0:35:12 | 0:35:17 | |
So I still remember at the moment... that one of the jury stood up | 0:35:17 | 0:35:23 | |
and delivered the verdict to my son. | 0:35:23 | 0:35:27 | |
I'll never forget it. I'll never forget it, that moment. | 0:35:28 | 0:35:32 | |
Everything changed. | 0:35:32 | 0:35:34 | |
The jury found Joseph guilty of murder, | 0:35:38 | 0:35:40 | |
while concluding that the boy who fly kicked the door | 0:35:40 | 0:35:43 | |
moments after the attack was not guilty of the same charge. | 0:35:43 | 0:35:47 | |
He was convicted of the lesser offence of manslaughter. | 0:35:47 | 0:35:51 | |
I can only think that the jury concluded he | 0:35:51 | 0:35:55 | |
had a lesser degree of knowledge | 0:35:55 | 0:35:58 | |
of the knife than the other boy, who had a knife himself. | 0:35:58 | 0:36:05 | |
Because of his age, | 0:36:06 | 0:36:07 | |
Joseph's life sentence had a reduced minimum tariff. | 0:36:07 | 0:36:11 | |
But it will still be 12 years before he can apply for parole. | 0:36:11 | 0:36:15 | |
Such an intelligent boy. | 0:36:15 | 0:36:17 | |
He's spending... Effectively, he won't be released... | 0:36:17 | 0:36:21 | |
At the earliest, he won't be released until he's 30. | 0:36:21 | 0:36:25 | |
He was a 15-year-old boy at the time, with great prospects. | 0:36:25 | 0:36:28 | |
Hands down, he's guilty of violent disorder, | 0:36:28 | 0:36:31 | |
but he's certainly not guilty of murder. | 0:36:31 | 0:36:33 | |
He wasn't to know Dale Green was going to do what he did. | 0:36:33 | 0:36:36 | |
Where's the foresight? You can't foresee that at all. | 0:36:36 | 0:36:39 | |
So I think it's a rather unfair... | 0:36:39 | 0:36:41 | |
And this case has been troubling me for some years now. | 0:36:41 | 0:36:45 | |
I think the public generally feel that you should be found guilty | 0:36:45 | 0:36:48 | |
in a criminal court for what you've done | 0:36:48 | 0:36:50 | |
or encouraged or participated in. | 0:36:50 | 0:36:52 | |
And this is such stretched participation, across the extent | 0:36:52 | 0:36:56 | |
of this park that day that he serves life for murder at the same time | 0:36:56 | 0:37:00 | |
as the boy who chased down the road and stabbed him? | 0:37:00 | 0:37:03 | |
In the final week of Alex Henry's trial, | 0:37:20 | 0:37:22 | |
the prosecution sum up their case against him. | 0:37:22 | 0:37:26 | |
-How did you feel watching that? -Angry. Really angry. | 0:37:26 | 0:37:29 | |
Yeah, things that have already been disproved in court, | 0:37:32 | 0:37:37 | |
are now being presented as facts to the jury again, | 0:37:37 | 0:37:40 | |
even though they've been disproved. | 0:37:40 | 0:37:42 | |
For example, now they are alluding to the fact | 0:37:43 | 0:37:47 | |
that despite there has been a confession by one of the boys | 0:37:47 | 0:37:50 | |
as to being the primary...the stabber, | 0:37:50 | 0:37:54 | |
they're now trying to place my brother as another stabber, | 0:37:54 | 0:38:01 | |
primarily the killer. | 0:38:01 | 0:38:03 | |
Even though that the top he was found in didn't have any | 0:38:03 | 0:38:06 | |
of the victim's blood on it, the boy that's confessed | 0:38:06 | 0:38:09 | |
had an item which had the victim's blood on it. | 0:38:09 | 0:38:11 | |
The witnesses have said that the boy that's confessed was the one | 0:38:11 | 0:38:14 | |
that committed the stabbing. | 0:38:14 | 0:38:16 | |
You're certainly not going to say that you're guilty of murder | 0:38:16 | 0:38:19 | |
and GBH with intent unless you were the stabber on those two occasions, | 0:38:19 | 0:38:24 | |
where one person died and the other person was injured. | 0:38:24 | 0:38:27 | |
They're trying to say, "He wasn't! He didn't do it. | 0:38:27 | 0:38:30 | |
"He was just saying he was party to the group, | 0:38:30 | 0:38:32 | |
"that's why he pleaded guilty and someone else did it," | 0:38:32 | 0:38:35 | |
and they're trying to say it was my son. | 0:38:35 | 0:38:37 | |
Well, over my dead body are they going to get away with that | 0:38:37 | 0:38:39 | |
and I will fight and I will carry on fighting for him. | 0:38:39 | 0:38:42 | |
I studied law at Brunel University, so during one of the criminal modules | 0:38:46 | 0:38:50 | |
we touched a little bit about joint enterprise. | 0:38:50 | 0:38:53 | |
So I knew vaguely the situations that can arise from it. | 0:38:53 | 0:38:57 | |
However, I never knew it would be like they would cast the net | 0:38:57 | 0:39:01 | |
this wide to get every single person | 0:39:01 | 0:39:03 | |
that was present there charged with murder. | 0:39:03 | 0:39:06 | |
That's not what I learnt. We were taught about proportionality, | 0:39:06 | 0:39:10 | |
the intention to kill, the mens rea element. | 0:39:10 | 0:39:13 | |
And...none of that is in this case or in the previous cases | 0:39:14 | 0:39:20 | |
where people have actually been convicted of it. | 0:39:20 | 0:39:24 | |
So I never realised it was like this. | 0:39:24 | 0:39:27 | |
The Court of Appeal's decision on Wayne Collins' application | 0:39:40 | 0:39:43 | |
for a reduction in sentence is due today. | 0:39:43 | 0:39:46 | |
Just having... | 0:39:48 | 0:39:50 | |
Just the waiting is just so... | 0:39:51 | 0:39:55 | |
It reminds me of the trial. | 0:39:55 | 0:39:56 | |
And the jury went out | 0:39:58 | 0:40:00 | |
and Wayne's the last person for a decision to be made. | 0:40:00 | 0:40:06 | |
So we were all on edge and it was like half of the family were like, | 0:40:06 | 0:40:10 | |
"Oh, my God, it's great." | 0:40:10 | 0:40:12 | |
PHONE RINGS | 0:40:12 | 0:40:15 | |
Here we go. | 0:40:16 | 0:40:18 | |
Hello, you're through to Deborah. | 0:40:18 | 0:40:20 | |
Hi, Barry, how are you doing? | 0:40:22 | 0:40:24 | |
Hi, it's bad news, I'm afraid. | 0:40:24 | 0:40:27 | |
What's the news? | 0:40:27 | 0:40:28 | |
They've not reduced his sentence at all? | 0:40:30 | 0:40:34 | |
They're not reducing it? | 0:40:34 | 0:40:36 | |
I'm really, really angry. | 0:40:39 | 0:40:42 | |
So we have to go to the European Court Of Human Rights? | 0:40:42 | 0:40:47 | |
I can't believe it. Wayne's going to be devastated. | 0:40:47 | 0:40:50 | |
The Court of Appeal said, "Well, not only did his presence encourage | 0:40:51 | 0:40:58 | |
"what went on, but by the jury's verdict, he intended to do that." | 0:40:58 | 0:41:04 | |
And so it was "participation in extremely serious offending" | 0:41:04 | 0:41:08 | |
is what the Court of Appeal said and upheld the 18 years. | 0:41:08 | 0:41:12 | |
-Hi, Mum, it's me. -'Oh, God.' | 0:41:12 | 0:41:14 | |
They're not letting him... They're not granting his appeal. | 0:41:15 | 0:41:20 | |
'Oh, God, my baby!' | 0:41:20 | 0:41:22 | |
I know. We're going to go to the Court Of Human Rights. | 0:41:22 | 0:41:28 | |
'Jesus Christ, have mercy, my poor baby. I will be strong.' | 0:41:28 | 0:41:33 | |
But I don't know how Wayne would ever have been able | 0:41:33 | 0:41:36 | |
to give evidence well, cos I don't think he's that sort of person. | 0:41:36 | 0:41:39 | |
The prosecution has spent weeks going through it all, | 0:41:39 | 0:41:42 | |
looking at every little bit, "How we can catch you out," | 0:41:42 | 0:41:45 | |
"Oh, you said here that it happened at five past three, | 0:41:45 | 0:41:48 | |
"and now you're saying it's ten past three and how can you be so wrong?" | 0:41:48 | 0:41:51 | |
It's kind of... | 0:41:51 | 0:41:53 | |
It's a game for those people who are not caught up in it. | 0:41:53 | 0:41:57 | |
For those people who are caught up in it, it's their life. | 0:41:57 | 0:42:00 | |
But for the others, it's a game they play. | 0:42:00 | 0:42:03 | |
The jury have retired | 0:42:14 | 0:42:15 | |
and Sally and Charlotte are visiting Alex at Belmarsh Prison | 0:42:15 | 0:42:19 | |
for the last time before hearing the verdict. | 0:42:19 | 0:42:22 | |
I hate seeing him in there. He's got such... | 0:42:22 | 0:42:25 | |
He's got bags, he looks pale, | 0:42:25 | 0:42:27 | |
he hasn't been out in the fresh air, he hasn't had sunlight. | 0:42:27 | 0:42:31 | |
He just looks really, really scared and down. | 0:42:31 | 0:42:34 | |
There's so many different groups of boys, | 0:42:34 | 0:42:36 | |
all up for joint enterprise murder, so he speaks to them and he sees them | 0:42:36 | 0:42:40 | |
explaining that there's no evidence against them | 0:42:40 | 0:42:42 | |
and that they've been told that they're going to be off | 0:42:42 | 0:42:44 | |
and they're getting really excited about going home. | 0:42:44 | 0:42:47 | |
But then he sees them a day later and they've been found guilty. | 0:42:47 | 0:42:51 | |
So now he's terrified. | 0:42:51 | 0:42:52 | |
We have, I'm sure, young men now in prison for a minimum of 30 years | 0:42:59 | 0:43:05 | |
for some criminal activity | 0:43:05 | 0:43:07 | |
where there was no intent to kill or cause grievous bodily harm | 0:43:07 | 0:43:11 | |
and I think it's a very serious problem. | 0:43:11 | 0:43:15 | |
We're not saying they're not guilty of anything, | 0:43:15 | 0:43:18 | |
it's just whether we really need to go to murder, | 0:43:18 | 0:43:21 | |
particularly when we have such hugely long minimum terms. | 0:43:21 | 0:43:26 | |
'I feel that I'm a victim of a joint enterprise | 0:43:31 | 0:43:33 | |
'as I've been convicted of a charge just for associating with someone. | 0:43:33 | 0:43:38 | |
'I do not avoid the fact that my behaviour on the horrific day | 0:43:38 | 0:43:42 | |
'of the murder was disorderly. Being a 15-year-old boy, | 0:43:42 | 0:43:46 | |
'following the crowd to gain a bit of respect from the older lads, | 0:43:46 | 0:43:50 | |
'I was naive to how things could end up. | 0:43:50 | 0:43:52 | |
'I had never believed that anybody would be hurt | 0:43:55 | 0:43:58 | |
'as a result of setting out that day, let alone killed. | 0:43:58 | 0:44:01 | |
'What most people forget is that a large quantity of people | 0:44:02 | 0:44:06 | |
'who didn't carry out the fatal blow | 0:44:06 | 0:44:07 | |
'are also punished for another's actions.' | 0:44:07 | 0:44:10 | |
He's still struggling to accept the fact... | 0:44:11 | 0:44:15 | |
..he was convicted. So, as a mother... | 0:44:18 | 0:44:22 | |
if I think about how he feels... | 0:44:22 | 0:44:25 | |
..I'm very, very sad, but I realise... | 0:44:28 | 0:44:31 | |
..the things I can do is very limited. | 0:44:34 | 0:44:36 | |
After four days of deliberations, | 0:44:43 | 0:44:45 | |
the jury have arrived at their verdicts. | 0:44:45 | 0:44:48 | |
Younis Tayyib, who had tried to break up the fight, | 0:44:48 | 0:44:52 | |
is acquitted of the murder of Taqui Khezihi. | 0:44:52 | 0:44:54 | |
Alex Henry and his friend, Janhelle Grant-Murray, | 0:44:56 | 0:44:59 | |
have been found guilty, | 0:44:59 | 0:45:01 | |
alongside the self-confessed stabber, Cameron Ferguson. | 0:45:01 | 0:45:04 | |
Everyone was in a real state by the time we went in. | 0:45:09 | 0:45:11 | |
The judge tells you that when the verdict is announced | 0:45:11 | 0:45:15 | |
that the people in the gallery, that's us, | 0:45:15 | 0:45:17 | |
have to take it without a noise - in absolute silence, we have to remain. | 0:45:17 | 0:45:22 | |
And so we didn't, because obviously it was such a shock, | 0:45:23 | 0:45:27 | |
an ambulance had to be called for one of the mums. | 0:45:27 | 0:45:30 | |
I'm still just absolutely baffled as to how a jury | 0:45:31 | 0:45:38 | |
could come to a majority verdict | 0:45:38 | 0:45:40 | |
of guilty when there was no direct evidence in this case. | 0:45:40 | 0:45:44 | |
Just for... | 0:45:48 | 0:45:50 | |
..hanging out with the wrong friend, I suppose. | 0:45:52 | 0:45:55 | |
-That's it. -For just being there. | 0:45:57 | 0:46:00 | |
There's nothing he could have done to change it. | 0:46:00 | 0:46:03 | |
He couldn't have foresaw that anything was going to happen | 0:46:03 | 0:46:08 | |
that day, he was just a young boy going shopping with some friends. | 0:46:08 | 0:46:12 | |
Charlotte went up to the relative of the victim... | 0:46:16 | 0:46:19 | |
I think it was the father. | 0:46:19 | 0:46:21 | |
..father of the victim and said, "I'm sorry for your loss," | 0:46:21 | 0:46:23 | |
and he said, "I'm sorry for yours." | 0:46:23 | 0:46:26 | |
You're very courageous, saying that to him. | 0:46:26 | 0:46:29 | |
There's no winners in this, is there? That's for sure. | 0:46:34 | 0:46:37 | |
No. | 0:46:39 | 0:46:40 | |
So this is the road Ben was murdered in - North Road. | 0:46:56 | 0:47:00 | |
And after his murder, all the kids went to lay flowers | 0:47:01 | 0:47:06 | |
and they all signed the street sign. | 0:47:06 | 0:47:11 | |
You know, even the kids around here, locally, as a community, | 0:47:16 | 0:47:21 | |
had had enough. | 0:47:21 | 0:47:22 | |
There was a big march organised by young kids saying, | 0:47:22 | 0:47:26 | |
"Enough is enough of this knife crime and violent crime on our streets." | 0:47:26 | 0:47:31 | |
Our son never got to find out about his exam results. | 0:47:31 | 0:47:35 | |
We was given an envelope for that, | 0:47:35 | 0:47:37 | |
sort of two months after he died to say that he was a straight-A student. | 0:47:37 | 0:47:42 | |
You know, we'll never see him grow up. | 0:47:43 | 0:47:46 | |
They can go and visit their sons or daughters. | 0:47:46 | 0:47:52 | |
We have to go up to a cemetery every weekend or nearly every weekend. | 0:47:52 | 0:47:57 | |
You know, that's what you've got to think about. | 0:47:57 | 0:48:00 | |
He was precious to us. | 0:48:03 | 0:48:05 | |
I feel to them, life's cheap. | 0:48:06 | 0:48:09 | |
He was our everything, wasn't he? | 0:48:10 | 0:48:12 | |
Yeah. | 0:48:14 | 0:48:15 | |
Following Ben's death, | 0:48:19 | 0:48:21 | |
the Kinsella family successfully campaigned to increase | 0:48:21 | 0:48:24 | |
the mandatory sentence for murder with a knife from 15 to 25 years. | 0:48:24 | 0:48:30 | |
The laws are there to sort of keep people on the straight and narrow. | 0:48:30 | 0:48:34 | |
But if people want to break them, | 0:48:34 | 0:48:37 | |
then they've got to face the consequences of that. | 0:48:37 | 0:48:39 | |
They've got to know that | 0:48:39 | 0:48:41 | |
if they're going to get involved in serious crimes like murder and stuff, | 0:48:41 | 0:48:47 | |
then being part of it, you might as well throw away the key yourself. | 0:48:47 | 0:48:53 | |
Sentencing for Alex Henry and his co-defendants | 0:48:57 | 0:49:00 | |
is at Snaresbrook Crown Court. | 0:49:00 | 0:49:03 | |
Cameron Ferguson receives a life sentence | 0:49:03 | 0:49:06 | |
with a minimum term of 22 years. | 0:49:06 | 0:49:08 | |
As secondary parties, Alex and Janhelle Grant-Murray | 0:49:11 | 0:49:14 | |
are given life with minimum terms of 19 years, | 0:49:14 | 0:49:18 | |
despite there being no proof that either had a knife | 0:49:18 | 0:49:21 | |
or intended to kill or cause serious harm. | 0:49:21 | 0:49:25 | |
What was his face like? Because I was just comforting you. | 0:49:25 | 0:49:28 | |
I was... He seemed OK, he just looked straight ahead. | 0:49:28 | 0:49:30 | |
-He seemed all right. He seemed dignified. -He did. | 0:49:30 | 0:49:33 | |
-He just looked straight ahead. -Yeah. Yeah. | 0:49:33 | 0:49:35 | |
It's a very harsh sentence. | 0:49:37 | 0:49:39 | |
I think Cameron Ferguson's actions on that day | 0:49:39 | 0:49:44 | |
did tragically take Taqui's life, | 0:49:44 | 0:49:47 | |
left a family devastated and mother heartbroken. | 0:49:47 | 0:49:51 | |
But this law has also taken two more victims, | 0:49:51 | 0:49:56 | |
my brother and his friend, Janhelle. | 0:49:56 | 0:49:58 | |
And they're going to be serving a life sentence | 0:49:58 | 0:50:01 | |
for a murder they did not commit, | 0:50:01 | 0:50:04 | |
and two more families are now devastated, | 0:50:04 | 0:50:06 | |
two more mothers are now heartbroken. | 0:50:06 | 0:50:09 | |
And something needs to change. | 0:50:09 | 0:50:11 | |
Alex and Janhelle's lawyers are appealing against their convictions. | 0:50:21 | 0:50:25 | |
It's difficult to appeal convictions, generally. | 0:50:25 | 0:50:28 | |
The reason's a good one, actually, | 0:50:28 | 0:50:30 | |
which is that the Court of Appeal respects the jury's verdict | 0:50:30 | 0:50:35 | |
and unless something has gone seriously wrong in the trial process, | 0:50:35 | 0:50:40 | |
they will uphold that verdict. | 0:50:40 | 0:50:43 | |
They may not agree with it, but if they think that the jury | 0:50:43 | 0:50:46 | |
were given all the relevant facts | 0:50:46 | 0:50:49 | |
and the trial was conducted fairly and according to the law, | 0:50:49 | 0:50:53 | |
then generally speaking that's enough for the verdict to stand. | 0:50:53 | 0:50:57 | |
Even if it's one that people don't think is correct. | 0:50:57 | 0:51:01 | |
The appeal process has left the Collins family deeply disillusioned. | 0:51:05 | 0:51:10 | |
We just thought, even if he got four years taken off, | 0:51:11 | 0:51:16 | |
we would have been happy, | 0:51:16 | 0:51:18 | |
but for it to just completely be dismissed, we were just... | 0:51:18 | 0:51:22 | |
It was devastating. It was like him being resentenced all over again. | 0:51:22 | 0:51:27 | |
-Yeah. -On the run-up to the appeal, it gave him hope, didn't it? | 0:51:27 | 0:51:31 | |
Like, something to look forward to, but there's nothing now. | 0:51:31 | 0:51:35 | |
No justice, no peace. | 0:51:40 | 0:51:42 | |
-What do we want? -Justice. -What do we want? -Justice. | 0:51:42 | 0:51:46 | |
No justice, no peace. | 0:51:46 | 0:51:48 | |
'Unfortunately, the demographic group who are affected by joint enterprise | 0:51:48 | 0:51:51 | |
'are going to be a section of society | 0:51:51 | 0:51:54 | |
'who do not have a great deal of influence.' | 0:51:54 | 0:51:57 | |
And I don't see middle-class people ending up in the dock | 0:51:58 | 0:52:02 | |
being accused of crimes on the basis that they associate | 0:52:02 | 0:52:05 | |
or they're with other people who commit crimes. | 0:52:05 | 0:52:08 | |
-When do we want it? -ALL: Now! -Free our innocents. | 0:52:08 | 0:52:12 | |
Calls for reform are coming not only from families | 0:52:12 | 0:52:15 | |
caught up in joint enterprise cases, but also from the Law Commission | 0:52:15 | 0:52:19 | |
and the Justice Committee of the House Of Commons. | 0:52:19 | 0:52:23 | |
So far, successive governments have declined to act. | 0:52:23 | 0:52:27 | |
'I think there's an element of policy here.' | 0:52:29 | 0:52:32 | |
The law has progressed in this way, | 0:52:32 | 0:52:35 | |
to cater for large numbers of senseless killings, | 0:52:35 | 0:52:40 | |
when if you didn't have a definition such as exists at the moment, | 0:52:40 | 0:52:44 | |
very often the followers, the encouragers would be acquitted | 0:52:44 | 0:52:48 | |
of any responsibility for the death. | 0:52:48 | 0:52:51 | |
My brother is currently serving 19 years' imprisonment | 0:52:54 | 0:52:57 | |
for a crime he did not commit. | 0:52:57 | 0:53:00 | |
-Free our innocents. ALL: -Free our innocents! | 0:53:00 | 0:53:03 | |
My suggested reform would be that a person is only guilty of murder | 0:53:03 | 0:53:08 | |
if he intended to kill or intended to cause grievous bodily harm. | 0:53:08 | 0:53:13 | |
No intention, no guilt. | 0:53:13 | 0:53:16 | |
-ALL: -No intention, no guilt. | 0:53:16 | 0:53:19 | |
I'd like the people that want this reform to talk to parents like us, | 0:53:19 | 0:53:24 | |
parents and families that have lost their loved ones. | 0:53:24 | 0:53:28 | |
Talk to us and see if that changes your mind. | 0:53:28 | 0:53:32 | |
You know, I'm sure if the boot was on the other foot, | 0:53:34 | 0:53:37 | |
they'd feel exactly as strongly as us. | 0:53:37 | 0:53:40 | |
Joint enterprise is a court full of lies. | 0:53:40 | 0:53:42 | |
-ALL: -Joint enterprise is a court full of lies. | 0:53:42 | 0:53:45 | |
-Let our prisoners go. -ALL: -Let our prisoners go. | 0:53:45 | 0:53:48 | |
-Not guilty by association. -ALL: -Not guilty by association. | 0:53:48 | 0:53:53 | |
The judges in the Supreme Court tomorrow could say this doctrine | 0:53:54 | 0:53:59 | |
has led us too far away from basic principles and we should abandon it. | 0:53:59 | 0:54:04 | |
So it could be done. | 0:54:04 | 0:54:06 | |
I'm not saying it would be done, but it could be done. | 0:54:06 | 0:54:08 | |
-Are you saying it should be done? -In my view, it should be done. | 0:54:08 | 0:54:11 |