Stalkers


Stalkers

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This programme contains some strong language

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-WOMAN:

-Hello, Paladin?

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-WOMAN:

-Hi, um, I just wanted to talk to someone, really?

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-Yes, are you experiencing stalking at the moment?

-Yes.

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OK, we're a high-risk service,

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so what I'll do is I'll just get some information from you...

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He was turning up everywhere that we went, he was threatening us.

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We were absolutely petrified.

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-WOMAN, CRYING:

-I've started getting death threats,

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I just don't feel safe. I want my life back.

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There's an invisible and invasive crime

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that's destroying people's lives.

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Sorry...

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The police might term it as "harassment".

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We'd use the word "stalking".

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This film follows Paladin,

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a national, independent charity

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which fights to protect victims of stalking...

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-WOMAN:

-I get, like, 40 missed calls a day...

-Oh, my God...

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..the stalking became, like, a control.

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..and three people who live in fear every day of their lives...

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I am just walking and she's coming.

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..and their journey through the criminal justice system

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that often fails them.

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I know if I stay in my current address,

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I'm going to end up dead.

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I'm sick of it, Melissa!

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I know you are. I've told the police.

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They're supposed to help you, aren't they?

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-WOMAN:

-Any part of happiness that's supposed to be in our lives

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has literally been torn away.

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-MAN:

-I just wonder when it's going to end.

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It will be quicker if I get hit by a bus. Then it will stop.

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Are you OK?

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-WOMAN SOBS:

-I'm just... I'm just so worried.

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PHONE RINGS

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Good afternoon, Paladin?

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Yeah, I'm a caseworker, bear with me one moment,

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I'll just get up a document.

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So, we support clients that we think

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are at high risk of serious harm or even homicide.

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OK. Are you safe speaking on the phone

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that you've called from, is it the same phone?

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A 2017 government report into stalking

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has revealed nationwide failings

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in the way police and the Crown Prosecution Service

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respond to stalking allegations and offences.

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He's said to you, "I'm going to shoot you and your husband"?

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OK, so you've reported it to the police?

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No police forces in the UK have dedicated stalking units.

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We've got a plan of action. It's a very long list...

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Set up four years ago and staffed by a specialist team

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of domestic-abuse caseworkers,

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and former police and probation staff,

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Paladin advises victims on gathering evidence

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and lobbies the police to take action.

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They can log it and report it.

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They know when risk is not identified,

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stalking can lead to murder.

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The restraining order is not robust enough,

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this is really not going to protect him at all.

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We work with the emergency services to make them aware of the risks,

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sometimes police are not aware of the risks.

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So, we try to put in advice,

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safety planning, liaising with multi agencies.

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If we all work together,

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we CAN make that difference, we can save lives.

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You got a mouse, a dead mouse, through the post?

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Yeah, horrible.

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All right, I've got the picture now of the mouse up on my screen.

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Alison has been trying to get the police to take action

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on her victim Carly's case for the last two years.

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-CARLY:

-I saw a brown package with my name on it,

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and I saw a little speck of blood

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and so I just gently opened the top,

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and saw it and screamed and threw it down.

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-It must have been really frightening.

-It was horrible.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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It's like she's stepping up the ante and she's escalating.

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-Yeah, Alex swears it's her handwriting...

-Oh, really?

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One in five women, and one in ten men

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will experience stalking at some point in their lives.

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The background to this case is that my victim, Carly,

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is going out with Alex - that's her boyfriend -

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and Alex's ex-girlfriend is the stalker,

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so it's a revenge-stalking case.

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She's got this real vengeance and grievance

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about him having a new girlfriend.

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I mean, she unable to move on.

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Two years later, she's unable to move on.

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Since she's been stalking me when something happens,

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my whole body trembles with fear and anxiety.

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I've never met her, I've never spoken to her.

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She can't get over her ex, which is my partner.

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It's ever since she found out that we were dating,

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I've been targeted.

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30-year-old Carly and her boyfriend, Alex,

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have been a couple for two years and recently bought a house.

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We moved a few months ago,

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because we were being stalked and we wanted to live in peace.

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We've done everything we can to keep our address secret,

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but it was just a waste of time cos she found us anyway.

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Carly had this gut feeling that something was coming,

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she'd been saying for days,

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"Something's coming, I can feel it. I know it."

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We knew instantly who would do that.

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I called the police to report it.

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You know, everything so far, it's been a game of cat-and-mouse,

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I think the only way it can be taken is they're the cat, we're the mouse,

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Carly, in particular, is the mouse,

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and the fact it's dead...

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Is that a death threat?

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I don't think the police are taking it seriously

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like what measures are being put in place to protect me now?

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I don't have a panic alarm,

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I have cameras up that I've put up myself, that they didn't provide,

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I'm having to protect myself and nobody's listening.

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You're quite concerned about the escalation?

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I am really frustrated

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because the response from police is minimal -

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she's probably close on, I don't know,

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whether it would be 60 reports to police.

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It feels like it's not sitting at the right level now.

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We need to address that and bring it to their attention,

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perhaps a bit more carefully.

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And if we've seen a comparable pattern of behaviour

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-in a case which ended in a multiple stabbing...

-The Helen Pearson case.

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Then we can't ignore that, that has to be taken into account.

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Next steps is about really working with police in terms of

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what they're going to do.

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Are they going to arrest her? What's going to happen next?

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-Thanks a lot.

-All right, no problem.

-OK.

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The dead mouse is the latest in a sustained stalking campaign

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preying on Carly's passion in life - cats.

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All the cards I've received from her, anonymous cards,

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they've been a big cat staring at a little goldfish -

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her being the big cat and I'm being the little goldfish

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or the little mouse that she's, like, hunting.

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We've sealed our letterbox up,

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cos we were worried that she was going to poison my cat.

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A couple of weekends ago,

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we woke up to a neighbour knocking on our door just saying

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someone had thrown paint over my van.

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It's a cat charity,

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we save cats, we rescue cats.

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Carly has received messages which show the stalker

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has investigated every aspect of her life.

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It says, "Hey, cat lady, you disgusting human being,

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"you are ugly, inside and out, desperate, immoral,

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"had their own mother abandon them, probably can't blame her..."

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She slates me about not being brought up by a mother

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and how I'm not a good enough person

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because I've never had a mother's love

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and that's quite a nasty thing to say.

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"PS - Carly, if you have a deposit for a house

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"you have money for your nicotine-stained hair,

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"you scabby dog." Kisses.

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She has targeted my nan,

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my grandad, my dad, my stepmum,

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my sister, my two best friends.

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She's never going to leave me alone,

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it's never going to stop.

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I hate the fact that someone hates me so much

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that she wants to ruin my life.

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-PHONE RINGS

-Good morning, Paladin?

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Good morning, it's Imre Marton speaking.

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Hello, Imre, I understand that you've experienced stalking,

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the perpetrator is due for release on Thursday. Is that correct?

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Yeah, that's correct.

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The police called me and they told me she still wants to harm me.

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I was told she wants to still kill me.

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So, bear with me, Imre, is that correct that the police said

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-she still wants to harm you, she still wants to kill you?

-Yes.

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31-year-old Imre Marton

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has been stalked for the last four years

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by a complete stranger.

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She told me how we should be together. She said she's in love.

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OK. Do you think she believes she is in a relationship with you?

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Yes, but she's just a stranger.

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At the beginning, she did not even know my name.

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She just came up with a name.

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She called me George.

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OK, are you very frightened?

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Yes. Yes, I am.

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Imre's long-term stalker

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has been in prison for harassment,

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but she's being released in three days.

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-Hello! My favourite bus driver.

-Hello, how are you?

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Hello, how are you?

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At first, Imre thought his stalker was just another passenger.

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I saw her on the bus, she travelled a lot.

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She started to do like round trips, travelling nowhere.

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At first, I thought that she was just a bit bored.

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Once she asked me out for a date.

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I was a bit shocked and I was really polite. I said to her,

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"I'm sorry, I'm not interested, I have a girlfriend."

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The thing is, you know, when I said "no," she start to cry.

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That was the beginning of this nightmare.

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Unemployed 22-year-old Charlie Howell's advances

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soon turned to threats.

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I'm just walking and she's coming.

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She's a dangerous girl.

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She told me that if I'm not going to be with her,

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she's going to kill me.

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She said, "I know your name, your address,

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"your number, your name, your date of birth,

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"your e-mail address, your car registration,

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"all the times and the routes of the buses."

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862?

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Good morning.

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Imre's stalker even posed as his girlfriend

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to get information about his whereabouts from his colleagues.

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We could have a couple of instances a day when it got really bad.

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It was just crazy. She was just everywhere.

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She would know where he was going to be,

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what duties he was going to be on.

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Can you remember that time at Didcot where we got the phone call

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-and she wouldn't get off the bus?

-Yes.

-She grabbed him once,

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he had to push her away to basically escape from her,

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left the bus of people there and ran down to the police station,

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so he must have been petrified.

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I need someone to speak to Imre's boss

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because there's no work-safety planning at the moment

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and he's riding the same bus route,

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the same car park that she's aware of, everything's the same.

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Paladin caseworker Rosie is worried for Imre's safety

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and wants to know what Thames Valley Police

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are going to do to protect him.

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I'm looking for a police officer who has taken over the case.

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I'm just trying to intercept and put some interventions in.

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I'm going to hazard a guess, she's going to go

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straight for those places that are known to her.

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Over the last four years,

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Imre has reported Charlie Howells more than 100 times

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and made 40 different witness statements.

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Instead of being charged with stalking,

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she was only served with restraining orders.

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There are a lot of statements here.

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Restraining orders,

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not to enter Oxford centre...

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Not to travel on the buses.

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Do not contact me.

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You know, she breached all of them.

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You know, in her mind,

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she truly believes I'm with her and, you know,

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doesn't understand why I'm calling the police

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and why I'm not walking with her on the street,

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why I'm running away,

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why I'm not acting like her boyfriend.

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She has serious issues, in her head.

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24/7,

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more than four years,

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all about me.

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And that is really bad.

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Charlie Howells was found guilty

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of breaching an existing restraining order

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and sent to prison for two years.

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Paladin can't understand why she's being released

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after only serving four months.

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Yesterday some information came to light.

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In prison, the perpetrator has been concocting a plan

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to harm Imre and she's actually got an accomplice on board.

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OK, that is very worrying.

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It is.

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This is literally all that he's been given,

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the police told me about their attack plan,

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plus the officer mentioned "they might stab me."

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This has only just come to light now, literally...

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Do we know if the person that she's in cahoots with,

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that she's teamed up with is now out?

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That person is already out.

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She's got an accomplice onboard,

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we don't know where this person is, where they are coming from,

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what this person looks like, we don't even know details of the plan.

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This is a very, very serious...

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Very serious situation.

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We haven't updated the last week.

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So, what I'll put is...

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How did she know my surname,

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my fake name for work, and also my Twitter account for work?

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Carly and Alex are keeping a log of the letters

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and cyber-stalking incidents.

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33... 34...

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34 pages.

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We've lost count of the number of incidents now.

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The stalker put an e-card up, and it says

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"Ladies do not start fights but they can FINISH them."

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She's tagged her mother in it,

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Diane Carter. "Yes. Yes, we can."

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They're saying we started the fight, but they're going to finish it.

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A year ago, they discovered

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their stalker's mother, Diane Carter, is also involved.

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If Diane wasn't involved,

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I don't think it would have got to this stage.

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She's the one that does all the research into our lives.

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They probably feed each other information,

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it probably gets them angry

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and then they start plotting what they're going to do next.

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Diane Carter has been convicted of harassment

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and is subject to a restraining order.

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But this hasn't stopped malicious posts on Facebook.

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It makes my heart pound whenever I see something on their Facebook.

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I know some people will say, "Why are you looking?"

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Well, it's actually Paladin have advised me to look

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because it puts the case together quite well

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and it gets more evidence against them

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because they regularly rant about us on there.

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There you go, next event?

0:17:170:17:20

So, he's talking about your daughter?

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Just looking at one of the perpetrators' Facebook page.

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Carly's stalker is 29-year-old Poppy Carter.

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She's also the mother of Alex's son, who he's only met once.

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They broke up before he was born.

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She continually uses her little boy

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to make her look like, you know,

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just a mum, just your everyday mum.

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So, you go from your innocent child

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who is sitting on the kitchen work surface, that's really lovely,

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and then right underneath, you go straight to

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"Never kick me when I'm down,

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"because when I get back up, you're fucked."

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Which is a direct threat to the victim.

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And then, we've got the mum, Diane...

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..in the mix, as well.

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"Suck it up, bitch."

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Yes, they're doing it in the indirect sense,

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so the messages don't say their names on them,

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so they are trying to be clever,

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but then we know that the cat thing is always directed to Carly

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because she works with cats.

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You know, I hope that the police have seen this.

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I think I'll just check with them that they have

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because it's very obvious who this is directed at.

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In Oxford, Imre's stalker is out of prison,

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and he's been told she has a plan to stab him.

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The police were here yesterday.

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They know she's a threat.

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They are going to patrol this place, check in on me...

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And the officers mentioned the knife attack is the most popular way.

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That's it.

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So, if I put a big coat on, you know, it's still not comfy, but...

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..I think it's much better to have this than pulling out a knife

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from your stomach, you know?

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She's going to have a curfew at night

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regular reporting to staff during the day.

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Charlie Howells has been released to a bail hostel

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180 miles away in Lancashire.

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She is on licence. So, obviously, she'll have conditions.

0:19:510:19:54

It would be good to know what those conditions are

0:19:540:19:57

and perhaps we can put some recommendations in,

0:19:570:19:59

so, thus, she will be managed by probation.

0:19:590:20:02

If we can map out how long it will take her

0:20:020:20:04

to get from where she is now to where he is now.

0:20:040:20:07

Yes, he's still in Oxford.

0:20:070:20:09

My concerns are with this that either she's either going to go

0:20:090:20:11

straight around there and cause him serious harm

0:20:110:20:13

or just continue stalking him at that level, if not escalate it.

0:20:130:20:17

The reason why I think that this could escalate

0:20:170:20:20

is that she may well now feel aggrieved by Imre that,

0:20:200:20:23

"Hey, you gave evidence against me,

0:20:230:20:26

"you kept reporting me, you, you, you."

0:20:260:20:29

He's feeling that there is almost no way out from this.

0:20:290:20:32

In Carly's case,

0:20:370:20:38

Alison believes Hertfordshire Police

0:20:380:20:41

should be pursuing a stalking charge.

0:20:410:20:43

Dog faeces through their letterbox.

0:20:430:20:46

Carly's car keyed on her birthday.

0:20:470:20:50

Now, we're at the stage of dead mice arriving in the post.

0:20:500:20:54

What concerns is that we've had consistent fixated behaviour now

0:20:540:20:59

for two years and a lot of notes saying police couldn't do anything

0:20:590:21:04

but this is a Safer Neighbourhood Team Sergeant who is responding,

0:21:040:21:08

and I would see this now as a matter for CID.

0:21:080:21:11

A perfect case of not having the dots joined,

0:21:110:21:15

not understanding fixation, not understanding stalking.

0:21:150:21:19

It's a high-risk stalking case and if they don't understand that

0:21:190:21:21

they might not get the cumulative risk.

0:21:210:21:24

What I will do is provide you

0:21:240:21:26

with some support a bit nearer to the time around court, as well

0:21:260:21:30

as you being a witness...

0:21:300:21:31

-How did Luton do at the weekend?

-They won, 2-1.

0:21:370:21:41

Have you been to Watford, then, Carly?

0:21:410:21:44

Yeah, once. A long time ago? Never go again.

0:21:440:21:48

It's all the foul language!

0:21:480:21:50

They were saying, "See you next Tuesday" and everything!

0:21:500:21:53

-Hiya, Mark. How have you been doing today?

-OK, and you?

0:21:530:21:57

Carly's family are desperate to bring years of attacks to an end.

0:21:570:22:00

She has vandalised her dad's car,

0:22:020:22:04

she's vandalised my van,

0:22:040:22:06

she's sent hate mail through.

0:22:060:22:09

Every week there was something,

0:22:090:22:10

I was afraid to be at home on my own. I'm nearly 60 years of age.

0:22:100:22:14

I don't need hate mail from a 20-odd-year-old.

0:22:140:22:18

The stalkers showed their perverse dedication

0:22:200:22:22

when they unearthed a 30-year-old family secret.

0:22:220:22:25

-It was hand delivered.

-It was hand delivered.

0:22:260:22:28

I thought it was a wedding invitation to start with

0:22:280:22:31

in a coloured envelope. When I opened it up...

0:22:310:22:34

-SOBBING:

-It's got my son's name on it... Sorry!

0:22:410:22:43

I don't...

0:22:430:22:45

"David,

0:22:450:22:48

"what a great role model you are.

0:22:480:22:50

"Explains a lot."

0:22:500:22:51

And the thing is, I haven't seen my son,

0:22:530:22:55

it wasn't my son's fault, this was down to me, since he was seven.

0:22:550:23:00

He's now 36 years of age.

0:23:000:23:01

Nobody knew about that -

0:23:130:23:14

even some of the family members didn't know about that.

0:23:140:23:17

Something I kept to myself.

0:23:170:23:19

I don't think... I won't ever get over that.

0:23:210:23:23

What kind of person would do that?

0:23:250:23:27

Sorry...

0:23:310:23:32

It's been a hard part of somebody's life, that is,

0:23:340:23:38

without somebody sending malicious, unnecessary...

0:23:380:23:42

It seems amazing how the police have let it go on for so long

0:23:440:23:47

without actually doing anything.

0:23:470:23:48

-It seems like she can do what she likes...

-Yeah.

0:23:480:23:51

..and she's got the law on her side.

0:23:510:23:54

You can never relax, you know?

0:24:180:24:20

It's just constant in your mind.

0:24:220:24:25

Sweet dreams. OK, darling.

0:24:250:24:28

I hear her walking about,

0:24:340:24:36

opening doors.

0:24:360:24:38

I keep thinking, "I wonder if she's put the window alarm on?"

0:24:400:24:43

The psychology of somebody like him,

0:24:450:24:48

that's cowardly and creeps about in the dark,

0:24:480:24:51

that's the stuff nightmares are made of.

0:24:510:24:54

Every night, single mum Melissa Thompson

0:24:570:24:59

sleeps on the sofa in her kitchen by her CCTV.

0:24:590:25:03

I have a crowbar and that stays round the back of my pillow,

0:25:060:25:09

round the back of the settee.

0:25:090:25:13

It's the only way I'll sleep, if I know that if something did happen,

0:25:130:25:16

and he did actually come in this house,

0:25:160:25:19

then I've got a chance of stopping him getting anywhere near me mum

0:25:190:25:22

or anywhere near me son.

0:25:220:25:24

Melissa lives with her mum Edith and her 13-year-old son John.

0:25:380:25:42

They think they're being stalked by Melissa's ex-boyfriend.

0:25:430:25:47

Look at these things. They've outgrown themselves.

0:25:470:25:51

Ex-partners make up 57% of all stalking cases.

0:25:530:25:58

I thought he was a very nice man, polite, had a good job.

0:25:580:26:02

I thought, "She's all right here, this is the one!"

0:26:030:26:07

And then he gradually wanted to take over control

0:26:070:26:11

and she wouldn't have that.

0:26:110:26:13

I should get plenty of seed pods off that one...

0:26:150:26:18

At first, I just took it as a break-up

0:26:180:26:20

and he was having trouble dealing with it.

0:26:200:26:23

I thought it would sort of calm down.

0:26:230:26:25

I just wouldn't answer his phone calls

0:26:250:26:27

and I wouldn't answer his texts,

0:26:270:26:29

then he started ringing on withheld numbers,

0:26:290:26:31

so we blocked withheld numbers.

0:26:310:26:33

The night he turned up banging on the window out here,

0:26:330:26:35

I just said to John and my mum,

0:26:350:26:37

"Get upstairs and stay up there and lock the door."

0:26:370:26:39

And I was on the phone to the police, and his banging carried on.

0:26:390:26:43

Me son's upstairs, terrified.

0:26:440:26:46

Anyway, two policewomen came

0:26:480:26:49

and that's when me mobile started ringing. She said, "Is that him?"

0:26:490:26:52

And I went, "Oh, yeah."

0:26:520:26:54

So, she answered it and he ranted and raved at her.

0:26:540:26:56

She said, "If you don't stop, we're going to come and arrest you."

0:26:560:26:59

After six months of abusive phone calls

0:27:000:27:03

and sometimes up to 30 texts a day,

0:27:030:27:06

Melissa's ex was served with a Police Information Notice - or PIN -

0:27:060:27:10

warning him further behaviour would be considered an offence.

0:27:100:27:13

That's when it started to get really sinister.

0:27:140:27:17

All this damage was happening.

0:27:170:27:19

Somebody pulled all the wiring from the hot tub in the back garden,

0:27:190:27:23

my windscreen wipers had been pulled off my car,

0:27:230:27:26

someone has knocked some stakes into the ground

0:27:260:27:28

so that it would damage the lawn mower,

0:27:280:27:30

notes on my back door, ranting letters.

0:27:300:27:32

Somebody's come close to the house.

0:27:320:27:36

Every time I rang the police about an incident or a letter

0:27:360:27:38

had been dropped on the door,

0:27:380:27:40

all they said was, "Have you got CCTV?"

0:27:400:27:42

When they didn't do anything,

0:27:420:27:43

because they said, "You've got no proof, you've got no proof,"

0:27:430:27:46

we splashed out for CCTV, which we couldn't really afford

0:27:460:27:49

but we've had to do it, really.

0:27:490:27:51

This covers the drive because I've have had a lot of damage to my car.

0:27:580:28:02

And the other one was the back.

0:28:020:28:04

It's the quietest part of the garden

0:28:040:28:07

and also it can't be viewed from the street or any of our neighbours.

0:28:070:28:10

Over recent weeks, Melissa and her mum have become more fearful.

0:28:130:28:17

A few nights ago, a torch appeared up the garden.

0:28:190:28:22

It was dark. Couldn't see who was holding the torch.

0:28:300:28:33

And it moved about a bit...

0:28:330:28:35

..then it shone straight at the house

0:28:360:28:39

as if to say, "I'm here! I'm here!"

0:28:390:28:41

And then he went.

0:28:410:28:43

It's frightening.

0:28:450:28:47

Fancy crawling around somebody's garden!

0:28:470:28:50

Melissa hasn't seen her ex at the house since the police notice,

0:28:510:28:54

but she can't think who else would be coming into her garden.

0:28:540:28:58

I think he's staying away from the house,

0:28:590:29:03

so that he can't be seen,

0:29:030:29:05

so it's sort of, "I'm still here,

0:29:050:29:08

"and you can put cameras up but it's not going stop me.

0:29:080:29:10

"I'll just find a way round it."

0:29:100:29:12

Isn't it ridiculous, in this day and age.

0:29:120:29:16

I tell you who we want on the job - Frost, off the telly -

0:29:160:29:20

or who's the other one? The big...?

0:29:200:29:22

-Cracker.

-Cracker!

0:29:220:29:24

He'd have it solved in a couple of days!

0:29:240:29:26

It's clearly a person holding it.

0:29:300:29:32

That's definitely torchlight, isn't it?

0:29:340:29:38

He likes to come to the property at night.

0:29:380:29:41

Ex-intimate stalkers are revenge stalkers.

0:29:410:29:45

They are not accepting of the separation.

0:29:450:29:48

At the point of separation, that's when they start to stalk.

0:29:480:29:51

Such dedication to go into somebody's back garden at midnight!

0:29:510:29:54

That revenge motivation is essentially based on control.

0:29:550:29:59

Close down their world, isolate them, affect their job,

0:29:590:30:03

affect the way they're thinking.

0:30:030:30:05

13 months and it's just not stopping.

0:30:100:30:14

I could get this revengeful furious ex,

0:30:140:30:16

but after all this time, somebody who's willing

0:30:160:30:19

to spend that kind of time hunting you down is just frightening.

0:30:190:30:22

It is frightening.

0:30:220:30:23

I have to drive past his house every morning on the way to work.

0:30:390:30:43

There's been a few times when he's seen my car and followed me to work.

0:30:430:30:49

If a car pulls up behind me or if there's the same car

0:30:490:30:52

that follows me for any length of time, you're thinking,

0:30:520:30:56

"He's still behind me. Why is he still behind me?"

0:30:560:30:59

He tried to control me through the relationship

0:31:030:31:06

and just came up against a brick wall.

0:31:060:31:09

And now what he's doing is just continue to try and control me.

0:31:090:31:14

He wants me to me knees and once he's got me there, he's won.

0:31:140:31:20

So, I can't allow that to happen.

0:31:200:31:22

I've got to...just get on with it.

0:31:220:31:25

Imre's stalker has been out of prison for just six days.

0:31:420:31:46

She's banned from entering Oxford,

0:31:460:31:49

but, last night, an anonymous note was left on his door.

0:31:490:31:53

I know if I stay in my current address I'm going to end up dead.

0:31:530:31:58

Imre has fled his home and checked into a hotel.

0:32:040:32:07

It says, "Keep dreaming, shine like a star...

0:32:160:32:19

"Never give up, you are your own beautiful."

0:32:210:32:27

"Beautiful" - she called me "beautiful" so many times.

0:32:270:32:31

Those are her thoughts. Probably her cellmate wrote it down.

0:32:310:32:35

This morning, police finally gave Imre

0:32:400:32:42

a picture of his stalker's cellmate

0:32:420:32:44

who they believe is plotting with Charlie Howells to stab him.

0:32:440:32:49

The emotional toll it's taking on you is very high.

0:32:510:32:55

I don't want to go back home till she's behind bars.

0:32:550:32:58

It's just not safe.

0:32:580:33:00

Yup, yup, I feel for you

0:33:000:33:02

and I feel that anxiety...

0:33:020:33:04

-I'm still shaking.

-The situation is what's abnormal

0:33:040:33:08

and what's not right...

0:33:080:33:10

-ALISON:

-Very concerning level of fixation here.

0:33:100:33:14

It's obsession, it's hunting that victim down.

0:33:140:33:17

Completely controlling their life.

0:33:190:33:22

Hertfordshire Police, please?

0:33:360:33:38

Yes, there might be someone who knows the case,

0:33:390:33:42

Carly Bradbury's case.

0:33:420:33:44

I'm her stalking advocate.

0:33:440:33:46

The police have finally arrested Carly's stalker, Poppy Carter,

0:33:470:33:51

but Paladin believe the Crown Prosecution Service

0:33:510:33:54

are looking at the wrong charge.

0:33:540:33:56

I just wanted to speak to someone who might know why

0:33:580:34:00

the word "harassment" instead of "stalking" has been mentioned,

0:34:000:34:04

with Poppy's arrest?

0:34:040:34:06

Hopefully, we can change it to a stalking charge.

0:34:060:34:10

I don't want it dumbed down to harassment,

0:34:100:34:13

because that's how it feels when they overlook the fixation

0:34:130:34:18

and just treat it as a nuisance behaviour.

0:34:180:34:21

I don't understand the reluctance to call it stalking.

0:34:270:34:30

Because criminal damage and harassment

0:34:300:34:33

could be one-off incidents.

0:34:330:34:35

This is an obsession.

0:34:350:34:37

It's a mental-health thing.

0:34:370:34:39

Just because she's got arrested on Friday,

0:34:390:34:41

it doesn't mean she's going to stop

0:34:410:34:43

because she's fixated and obsessed.

0:34:430:34:45

She needs to be convicted for stalking

0:34:450:34:49

and get the mental health resources that she needs.

0:34:490:34:54

I just wonder when it's going to end. How it's going to end.

0:34:540:34:56

-It's not going to end.

-You can't take a lifetime of this.

0:34:560:34:59

It would be quicker if I get hit by a bus. Then it would stop.

0:35:010:35:04

Poppy Carter's recent arrest

0:35:110:35:13

appears to have triggered a backlash from her mother.

0:35:130:35:16

So, the stalker's mother...

0:35:180:35:20

I don't understand what she's put on here.

0:35:220:35:24

She's put a... A baby scan up?

0:35:240:35:28

20 weeks pregnant - what the hell is that about?

0:35:280:35:31

She's put in, what a good family you are

0:35:330:35:36

breaking up with her daughter when she was 20 weeks pregnant.

0:35:360:35:39

That's what it's about.

0:35:390:35:41

-When was that posted?

-Four hours ago.

0:35:440:35:47

-Just ignore it.

-She's going on about the same things,

0:35:480:35:53

like, three years down the line.

0:35:530:35:54

Carly, can you put your phone down now?

0:35:540:35:56

Cos you know how it's going to make you feel.

0:35:560:35:58

Why can't you ignore it?

0:36:030:36:04

Cos it's, it's...

0:36:060:36:07

because I can ignore it,

0:36:070:36:09

but the fact is, when they're doing angry rants like this,

0:36:090:36:12

I know that they're going to do something,

0:36:120:36:14

and that's what worries me.

0:36:140:36:16

Cos every time this happens, something happens after that.

0:36:160:36:20

But you can't stop that.

0:36:200:36:21

Yeah, but it doesn't stop me from worrying about it.

0:36:210:36:25

You can't just switch off.

0:36:250:36:26

You can switch off, I can't.

0:36:260:36:28

It's me that tries to pick you up when these things happen.

0:36:280:36:31

The only person who can pick me up

0:36:310:36:33

is the police doing their job properly.

0:36:330:36:35

That's the only people that can pick me up.

0:36:350:36:37

What's the reason behind these cameras?

0:36:520:36:54

-Just a bit of home security?

-Well, I'm being stalked.

0:36:540:36:57

It's been going on for about 14 months now.

0:36:570:36:59

Hopefully, these will do the trick, once we get them set up,

0:36:590:37:02

they will pick up anybody walking from this direction.

0:37:020:37:05

Additional cameras are being installed in Melissa's garden.

0:37:050:37:09

She and her mother are becoming more scared

0:37:090:37:11

in the run-up to Bonfire Night.

0:37:110:37:13

I'm on edge all the time, you know,

0:37:130:37:15

it sounds ridiculous, I know,

0:37:150:37:17

but I'm always on edge, if you know what I mean, I can't relax.

0:37:170:37:22

We've got this camera here...

0:37:220:37:23

I think he's waiting until 5th November,

0:37:230:37:25

and he's coming to set fire to something.

0:37:250:37:29

I've just noticed something I find a tad worrying - that!

0:37:290:37:33

That's been broke on purpose.

0:37:340:37:36

That would fire pretty quick..

0:37:360:37:38

Yup.

0:37:390:37:40

Fuelling their anxiety, a mutual friend says she's heard Melissa's ex

0:37:400:37:44

talking suspiciously about Bonfire Night

0:37:440:37:47

and is worried for her safety.

0:37:470:37:49

It's a shame he doesn't come in the daytime, really.

0:37:490:37:52

Yeah, it is. There's no way he can get down the garden.

0:37:520:37:55

-The whole boundary to boundary's covered.

-Yup.

0:37:550:37:57

-Hello, Melissa. It's Alison from Paladin.

-Hiya.

0:38:030:38:07

-I just wondered, did you call the police?

-Yeah.

0:38:070:38:10

And what did they say?

0:38:100:38:12

They said, I don't think we need to take a statement or anything,

0:38:120:38:15

but we'll get back to you and they didn't.

0:38:150:38:18

I'll see if there's any pushing I can do with the police.

0:38:190:38:23

Just cos he said Bonfire Night,

0:38:230:38:25

it's not necessarily going to be.

0:38:250:38:28

It could just be that threat.

0:38:280:38:30

He's patient and that's worse.

0:38:300:38:33

Like you say, he might be trying to create

0:38:330:38:35

this level of fear for you,

0:38:350:38:37

this build-up and then not do anything on that day.

0:38:370:38:41

You just reach a point where you get sick to death

0:38:410:38:43

or frightened of your own shadow, And you think, "Oh, for God's sake,

0:38:430:38:46

-"just do whatever you're going to do and get on with it."

-Yeah.

0:38:460:38:49

The firemen have given us safety ladders.

0:38:550:38:57

What a carry on!

0:38:580:39:00

I don't know how they expect me to climb over a window sill

0:39:000:39:03

onto a safety ladder!

0:39:030:39:04

But I don't say anything.

0:39:040:39:07

Like you say, you don't know if it's just an idle threat

0:39:100:39:14

to frighten you or if he is actually going to do something,

0:39:140:39:18

you don't know what he's going to do.

0:39:180:39:20

Well, I've rung police and told them.

0:39:200:39:24

What did they say? Wait till it happens?

0:39:240:39:26

They are supposed to log it, and then when I've rung back later,

0:39:260:39:30

-nobody's got any log of it.

-This is silly. This is absolute silliness.

0:39:300:39:33

I just want it logging,

0:39:330:39:34

because otherwise when I ring up and say something's been set fire to,

0:39:340:39:38

they'll say, "Why do you think it's him?

0:39:380:39:39

"What makes you think it's him?"

0:39:390:39:41

Police have basically turned round to you and said,

0:39:410:39:44

"Well, let's wait and see if it happens."

0:39:440:39:47

They've not said that, but...

0:39:470:39:49

In so many words they've said it to you,

0:39:490:39:52

and when it happens, it's too late.

0:39:520:39:54

Honestly, I've reached that point now where I'm just numb.

0:39:540:39:57

Just do whatever you're going to do and get on with it.

0:39:570:40:00

Thames Valley Police have made arrangements

0:40:140:40:16

for Imre to move into a safe house.

0:40:160:40:19

I don't see that much daylight any more..

0:40:210:40:25

So... I hate this curtain... I have to have this,

0:40:280:40:31

cos it's always closed so no-one can see in...

0:40:310:40:37

and I am not happy about the front door.

0:40:370:40:40

I'm planning to cover the glass.

0:40:430:40:45

My personal life, it shrinks...

0:40:450:40:48

..and...

0:40:490:40:51

..this is the only way I can feel safe

0:40:520:40:56

if I do those changes like no more sunlight.

0:40:560:40:59

It's like a little prison.

0:41:050:41:06

But it's safe and I would like to keep it that way.

0:41:090:41:13

Alison and Catherine are travelling to Oxford

0:41:250:41:28

with an important update for Imre.

0:41:280:41:31

This will be the first time they've met him face to face.

0:41:310:41:34

Even if the perpetrator is in custody,

0:41:340:41:37

it doesn't make a difference.

0:41:370:41:39

He's been programmed to be hyper-vigilant

0:41:390:41:41

because that's your survival response.

0:41:410:41:44

I can't imagine that he's sleeping.

0:41:440:41:47

It will be useful to explore that a bit more...

0:41:470:41:50

DOOR BELL RINGS

0:41:500:41:51

-Hello! Nice to meet you, finally.

-Nice to meet you, Imre.

0:41:510:41:54

-How are you settling in?

-Slowly. It's much safer.

0:41:540:41:58

No-one knows about it.

0:41:580:41:59

I didn't even tell to my boss that I'm living here.

0:41:590:42:03

OK, that's good.

0:42:030:42:04

I've got some news. It's good news.

0:42:040:42:08

She's been recalled.

0:42:080:42:10

So, that means she has to serve the remainder of her sentence.

0:42:100:42:14

We've had a long discussion about when would that mean

0:42:140:42:17

possibly she might get out.

0:42:170:42:18

The end of her sentence will take her to August 2017.

0:42:180:42:22

So, how do you feel?

0:42:220:42:25

Everybody thinks I'm like a strong male

0:42:260:42:29

and I can deal with this - but I cannot, you know?

0:42:290:42:32

I lost my girlfriend because of this...

0:42:320:42:35

Everything, you know?

0:42:350:42:37

So...

0:42:370:42:38

It is difficult, you know, still.

0:42:380:42:41

Of course it is. I know.

0:42:410:42:43

SHE SIGHS

0:42:430:42:44

And I, you know, I just wish I had a magic wand, as well, for you.

0:42:440:42:49

Why should have to lose your girlfriend and lose all of this?

0:42:490:42:53

Actually, if I'm alone I'm always like this.

0:42:530:42:57

Imre, I'm so sorry.

0:42:570:42:58

I don't want to show it to my colleagues and my friends.

0:42:580:43:03

It's too much.

0:43:030:43:05

Imre, anyone would feel awful like this.

0:43:050:43:12

This is not something that you should have to be living through.

0:43:120:43:15

You're human and you want to have a relationship

0:43:150:43:19

and you want to have friends.

0:43:190:43:21

The thing is, if I have a girlfriend and start a family,

0:43:210:43:25

she will be out one day,

0:43:250:43:27

and what is she going to do?

0:43:270:43:29

She's so messed up, you know?

0:43:290:43:31

So, so... In her head.

0:43:310:43:34

With short sentences and no psychological treatment in prison,

0:43:370:43:41

Imre lives in fear that his stalker will reoffend on her release.

0:43:410:43:45

-Thank you.

-All right. Take care.

0:43:450:43:47

-Have a good journey, then.

-Thank you.

0:43:470:43:50

It's always hitting me when I'm at home late,

0:43:500:43:54

I had those good memories of when I used to have my girlfriend.

0:43:540:43:58

I still really love her...

0:43:580:44:00

..but...

0:44:020:44:04

..you know, she had enough,

0:44:050:44:08

and I can totally understand that.

0:44:080:44:11

It's not right.

0:44:110:44:13

At all, you know?

0:44:130:44:15

You know, I just don't want to cry again...

0:44:180:44:21

It's just bad.

0:44:230:44:25

Poppy Carter is still on bail for criminal damage and harassment

0:44:420:44:46

while police gather more evidence.

0:44:460:44:49

After the stalker was at the police station last week

0:44:510:44:55

for her bail conditions,

0:44:550:44:57

her mum started again on her Facebook rants.

0:44:570:45:01

There's been quite a number of them.

0:45:020:45:04

So, the first one, she put up an e-card saying, "I'll wait."

0:45:040:45:09

Which I think she's waiting for what the outcome is

0:45:090:45:13

and then she'll start up again.

0:45:130:45:14

And she put #dirtyrottenscum.

0:45:140:45:18

She put up another e-card, saying,

0:45:200:45:22

"All in good time, my pretty," from the Wicked Witch.

0:45:220:45:25

So, again, it's just more threats.

0:45:250:45:28

I think these posts were put up out of anger,

0:45:280:45:30

I think she couldn't help herself.

0:45:300:45:33

Unless she's stalking someone else,

0:45:330:45:35

who else would these be aimed at?

0:45:350:45:39

She's absolutely off her head.

0:45:390:45:41

I'm sick of it, Melissa! I really am.

0:45:570:45:59

-I know you are. Well, so am I.

-I'm holding on, holding on.

0:45:590:46:03

It's been going on for so long.

0:46:030:46:06

We used to have a quiet, peaceful life.

0:46:060:46:09

It's Bonfire Night.

0:46:100:46:12

Melissa, her mum and her son John are on edge.

0:46:120:46:15

They can sneak round the back of the shed,

0:46:160:46:19

just pour some petrol in there, and throw a match and run.

0:46:190:46:22

It's next to Paul's buildings,

0:46:220:46:24

and it's sure to spread across if he sets fire to that.

0:46:240:46:28

If he sets fire to that, Paul will shoot him.

0:46:280:46:31

-How many fishcakes?

-Two.

-Two.

0:46:310:46:32

Did you hear anything at all last night?

0:46:490:46:52

No. nothing.

0:46:520:46:54

-Any bangings, rustlings?

-Nothing.

0:46:540:46:55

Melissa checks last night's CCTV.

0:46:570:47:00

A quiet night.

0:47:010:47:03

-Is that good or bad?

-No. It's good, it's very good.

0:47:050:47:07

I just want to catch him and get some evidence...

0:47:100:47:13

..that the police would actually have to use.

0:47:150:47:17

I mean, we've had loads of things that could have only been him.

0:47:170:47:20

He's so patient.

0:47:200:47:21

I always said that's the worst thing about it,

0:47:210:47:23

I'll never know when it's stopped.

0:47:230:47:26

See you later.

0:47:330:47:35

Love you.

0:47:350:47:37

Hope it goes well.

0:47:370:47:39

After a two-year battle, the Crown Prosecution Service

0:47:400:47:44

have finally charged Poppy Carter with stalking.

0:47:440:47:46

Today is a court hearing to determine

0:47:480:47:51

whether the case will go to trial.

0:47:510:47:53

I haven't slept hardly in the last few nights.

0:47:530:47:58

I've been getting myself in a state about it.

0:47:580:48:00

I feel sick to the stomach.

0:48:020:48:05

It's just like the day we wanted for so long,

0:48:050:48:08

to finally get her into court,

0:48:080:48:10

and, you know, get some kind of justice.

0:48:100:48:13

So, I'm feeling nervous about that.

0:48:130:48:15

Stalking was made a criminal offence in 2012,

0:48:210:48:26

yet few cases make it to court.

0:48:260:48:28

My guess is that she is going to plead not guilty today,

0:48:290:48:34

it's a way of staying in contact with me. It's a two-week trial,

0:48:340:48:37

she will obviously see me there, I'll have to see her,

0:48:370:48:40

it's just another way of staying in contact with each other,

0:48:400:48:44

another way to torment me.

0:48:440:48:46

Alex's stepfather Kevin is going into court on Carly's behalf.

0:48:490:48:53

-Are you going to come in with us?

-No.

-No? I can't convince you?

0:48:550:49:00

No, I can't. I feel sick even thinking about it. I can't face her.

0:49:000:49:03

I fully understand, but if you change your mind,

0:49:030:49:05

-you want to come in?

-Yeah, OK, thank you.

0:49:050:49:08

It's like I'm living an absolute nightmare.

0:49:120:49:15

If she hadn't been arrested after that mouse,

0:49:190:49:22

it was getting more and more sinister

0:49:220:49:24

where I would have thought it would have resulted in my murder.

0:49:240:49:27

Because that's how horror films end,

0:49:270:49:30

and it feels like a horror film to me.

0:49:300:49:32

-What?

-Hello, darling.

0:49:380:49:40

-You look upset.

-I think it went the way you thought it would.

0:49:400:49:43

-Not guilty?

-She's pleaded not guilty.

0:49:430:49:46

She hired a private detective, which was quite interesting.

0:49:460:49:50

-That came out.

-What the fuck? Someone has been following me?

0:49:500:49:53

You and Alex. That's how she found out where you and Alex live.

0:49:530:49:57

What a weirdo!

0:49:570:49:58

Who hires a private detective to find out?

0:49:580:50:02

And then she still pleads not guilty! Just own up to it...

0:50:020:50:06

The full trial will be in three months.

0:50:060:50:08

Then Carly will have to face her stalker for the first time

0:50:080:50:11

to give evidence.

0:50:110:50:13

-ALEX:

-Even though it's expected, I am really frustrated.

0:50:140:50:18

-Yeah, same.

-I can't believe she had the cheek

0:50:180:50:20

to get a private detective.

0:50:200:50:22

That would explain how she's got our address, though.

0:50:220:50:25

I'm in angry mode right now.

0:50:250:50:26

I'm still suffering from anxiety, I'm still scared about my future

0:50:260:50:29

but I'm pissed off with what she's done to me.

0:50:290:50:32

I've had enough of it. I'm not standing for it any longer.

0:50:320:50:35

So, just keep throwing it at me

0:50:350:50:38

because I'm not... I'm not going to budge.

0:50:380:50:41

KEYPAD TONES

0:50:460:50:49

Hello, my name's Melissa Thompson,

0:50:490:50:51

I've had a long-going stalking problem.

0:50:510:50:53

A policeman with you fingerprinted a letter...

0:50:530:50:56

There's been a breakthrough in Melissa's case.

0:50:560:50:59

Police have found fingerprints on one of the anonymous letters

0:50:590:51:01

left at her house.

0:51:010:51:03

These could reveal the identity of her stalker.

0:51:030:51:06

My ex-partner refused to have his fingerprints taken.

0:51:070:51:10

I'd like some information

0:51:100:51:12

on whereabouts we are with it right now. OK, thank you.

0:51:120:51:15

I don't have any faith in the police now

0:51:220:51:24

because they just don't seem to take it seriously.

0:51:240:51:27

When you read the whole content of the letters,

0:51:300:51:33

it mentions me taking his daughter dancing,

0:51:330:51:37

all sorts of personal things that only he could have known.

0:51:370:51:40

One paragraph jumps from, like, one nice thing to one rant,

0:51:400:51:45

to another rant.

0:51:450:51:46

"Not like I did nothing for you,

0:51:460:51:48

"more than anyone else in your past, I do believe.

0:51:480:51:51

"Do you ever regret meeting me? Wish I'd never met you."

0:51:510:51:54

And then it goes from that to like,

0:51:540:51:57

"I do hope you've got your health problems sorted out."

0:51:570:52:00

Like that policeman said, "That's saved on a computer somewhere."

0:52:010:52:05

So, if they took his computer in the first place...

0:52:050:52:08

-They would have that.

-Then it would be hard evidence.

0:52:080:52:11

-It would be proof.

-That would be proof, yeah...

0:52:110:52:13

..and then they could have charged him with stalking.

0:52:150:52:17

We would assign a caseworker and we could go from there.

0:52:260:52:28

Seven weeks later, the CPS granted police

0:52:280:52:31

the right to arrest Melissa's ex,

0:52:310:52:33

to force him to give his fingerprints.

0:52:330:52:36

Paladin are hoping for a match.

0:52:360:52:38

It looks like I've got a reply from the OIC for Melissa's case.

0:52:380:52:42

So, it says, "Hi, the suspect was arrested

0:52:460:52:48

"and denied sending a letter.

0:52:480:52:49

"Unfortunately, his fingerprints were not found to be on the letter.

0:52:490:52:53

"Due to no further lines of inquiry,

0:52:530:52:54

"the suspect was released with no further action.

0:52:540:52:57

"I hope this helps.'

0:52:570:52:58

It is disappointing. If there were no fingerprints on the letters

0:53:010:53:05

and they don't match his,

0:53:050:53:07

then we can't deny that fact, so we just have to...

0:53:070:53:10

The CPS and police have to work with what they've got.

0:53:100:53:13

And in this instance, there isn't anything concrete.

0:53:130:53:17

But this is the frustrating thing,

0:53:170:53:19

you know you really want to start

0:53:190:53:22

to see more prosecutions coming through.

0:53:220:53:24

Often stalkers don't even get a criminal conviction.

0:53:240:53:27

So, it's your ex-partner that's been stalking you, am I right?

0:53:270:53:30

This is why we say they steal lives and take lives.

0:53:300:53:33

You know, I have a case where it has been 17 years

0:53:330:53:35

that have been stolen of that person's life and that's not...

0:53:350:53:39

You know, how can that be fair and just?

0:53:390:53:44

And how can that person and their family

0:53:440:53:47

be expected to live with that for such a long time?

0:53:470:53:51

For Melissa and her family,

0:54:030:54:05

it's hard to accept that their case has been dropped.

0:54:050:54:07

I suppose I just feel a bit numb.

0:54:090:54:11

That I have lived this hell for 14 months

0:54:110:54:14

and he can just walk on, carry on like it's just not happened.

0:54:140:54:19

But the after-effects it'll leave on us will be a lot different.

0:54:200:54:24

This is the MP Alex Chalk who is campaigning

0:54:400:54:42

-for longer sentencing for stalkers.

-All right.

0:54:420:54:45

What seems to be a pattern in so many of these cases...

0:54:450:54:48

Imre and Paladin are attending a stalking event in London

0:54:480:54:52

to raise awareness of how victims are repeatedly failed

0:54:520:54:55

by the criminal justice system.

0:54:550:54:59

The National Stalking Helpline

0:54:590:55:01

respond to calls from victims of stalking.

0:55:010:55:03

If the police were doing their job properly and more effectively,

0:55:030:55:07

then half of those people may not even come

0:55:070:55:09

to the National Stalking Helpline...

0:55:090:55:11

Imre wants to share the catalogue of police errors

0:55:110:55:14

that gave his identity away to his stalker.

0:55:140:55:17

I'm so fed up calling the police

0:55:170:55:20

and wasting my time to make those statements.

0:55:200:55:23

It's just... It's goes nowhere.

0:55:230:55:25

I think the system is not able to help me at all.

0:55:250:55:29

Ahh, what happened was she got a warning from the police,

0:55:290:55:33

and they wrote down my name on that paper,

0:55:330:55:37

on that warning notice,

0:55:370:55:39

and she found out my full name.

0:55:390:55:41

The police GAVE the stalker Imre's details

0:55:410:55:45

on the harassment warning,

0:55:450:55:47

the police inadvertently aggravated the stalking,

0:55:470:55:51

she was then able to access his phone number

0:55:510:55:54

his address, everything.

0:55:540:55:57

I think my life is ruined.

0:55:570:55:59

You know, I'm going to build up a new life.

0:55:590:56:01

You know, even I was thinking about changing my name.

0:56:010:56:04

Thank you so much, Imre.

0:56:040:56:06

We really hope that today is the start of a process

0:56:060:56:09

where we can take stalking seriously,

0:56:090:56:11

that we change attitudes to stalking...

0:56:110:56:14

I need to deal with this.

0:56:210:56:24

I already have some plans for the future

0:56:240:56:28

and I'm definitely going to reach them

0:56:280:56:33

because I know that I'll be safe again...

0:56:330:56:35

..and my life will be much, much better.

0:56:370:56:40

For the last four days,

0:56:490:56:51

the jury in Poppy Carter's trial

0:56:510:56:54

has been listening to the evidence.

0:56:540:56:56

Their verdict is expected tomorrow.

0:56:560:56:58

It's been a horrible week.

0:56:590:57:01

What if she doesn't get convicted?

0:57:070:57:09

I am hopeful, but, obviously, it's in the hands of the jury.

0:57:110:57:14

They have to decide it now.

0:57:140:57:15

Did you look at her?

0:57:220:57:24

I could see her in the corner of my eye,

0:57:250:57:28

and then I looked at her yesterday.

0:57:280:57:30

It's weird... It's weird after all this time, that...

0:57:310:57:34

kind of mask was unveiled

0:57:340:57:37

and there she is...

0:57:370:57:38

I was expecting this monster.

0:57:410:57:43

But you know, if you walk past her in the street,

0:57:450:57:48

-you wouldn't think that she's done all this, would you?

-No.

0:57:480:57:51

-You wouldn't think it.

-No, you can't spot a stalker.

0:57:510:57:54

-WOMAN:

-He was constantly on my e-mail, constantly on my Facebook,

0:58:350:58:38

trying to meet with me.

0:58:380:58:40

Are you afraid that he might kill the children?

0:58:400:58:42

-WOMAN:

-I can't protect myself. I don't know what he'll do next.

0:58:440:58:47

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