Episode 3 The Ruth Ellis Files: A Very British Crime Story


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This is a picture of a bedsit taken in 1982,

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which I have faithfully attempted to recreate.

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It was the last home of a man called Andre McCallum,

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who, at the age of 37, took his own life.

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In the room, he left a cassette,

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which was recovered by his family after his death.

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Andre's mother was one of the most famous killers of the 20th century.

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Her name was Ruth Ellis.

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In 1955, she became the last woman hanged in Britain

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for shooting dead her lover David Blakely.

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GUNSHOT

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My name is Gillian Pachter.

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As a documentary film-maker,

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I've told stories about killers in America.

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There, gun violence and state executions

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are part of the landscape.

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So I am fascinated by Ruth and her legacy.

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I've spent the past year re-investigating her crime,

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looking not only at the legalities of her case,

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but at the complex post-war society that made and destroyed Ruth Ellis.

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With the help of experts, I've already uncovered serious flaws

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in the original police investigation.

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Detectives hadn't thoroughly examined Ruth's motive,

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or the source of the murder weapon,

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and they didn't speak to her son Andre,

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who could have provided key information.

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It just appears there was no direction at all.

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There was just an acceptance

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of what was put in front of them on the desk.

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"Well, that's it, then."

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I've also examined Ruth's trial, which lasted a day and a half.

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At a time when sustained domestic violence

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could not be taken into account in a murder case,

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her barrister ran a risky defence of provocation, which failed.

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And he couldn't move the jury to recommend mercy.

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I'm not sure he was a man who understood women,

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and I think he probably had very limited experience of women.

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Now I'm going to look into Ruth's execution.

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I want to examine the campaign to get her reprieved,

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and the Home Office's decision to go ahead with the hanging.

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I don't think even Justice Havers really expected her to hang.

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Even in the light of new evidence.

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But that's the Home Office putting a full stop on it.

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It's the Home Office also saying,

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"Nobody's asked yet, so let's just leave it where it is."

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Did Ruth have to hang for her crime, or did Lady Justice get it wrong?

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After a trial which began on the 20th of June 1955,

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and finished the following afternoon,

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Ruth Ellis had been found guilty of murder,

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and sentenced to death.

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..and that you be there hanged by the neck until you be dead.

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The Crown Prosecution had successfully proved that her crime -

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shooting dead David Blakely outside the Magdala pub

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in Hampstead, North London - was coldly premeditated.

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GUNSHOT

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Ruth was sent back to Holloway Prison

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to await execution on the 13th of July.

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My name is Albert Pierrepoint, and I was executioner for 25 years.

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But there was a chance that Ruth could still be saved,

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and her sentence commuted to life imprisonment.

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Britain had grown uncomfortable with executing women.

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The vast majority sentenced to death

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in the first half of the 20th century were spared the gallows.

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I've come to the National Archives at Kew in London

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to search for clues to how Ruth felt in the days following her trial.

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These files from Holloway contain notes from the prison doctor

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during the last days of Ruth's life.

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They are so sparse.

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On the 27th and the 28th of June, it just says, "Jigsaws."

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Underneath, a note that Ruth's sister Muriel

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has been approved for a visit.

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I wonder what Ruth said to her.

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I contact Muriel's daughter Marlene,

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who has been helping me throughout my investigation

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into her aunt's case.

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-Hi.

-Hello, Gillian!

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-Come on in.

-You look nice!

-Thank you!

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My understanding is that Ruth apparently wanted to hang,

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or accepted that.

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She did, yes, that's what Mum said.

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She said... She said she was prepared to die.

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She wanted to be with David.

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That's what she told Mum when Mum went to visit.

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She said, "No, I need to be with David.

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"I want to be with David."

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Given her crime, it's shocking that Ruth wanted

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to be reunited with David.

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She even wrote to David's mother, whom she had never met.

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"I shall die loving your son, and you shall be content

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"knowing that his death has been repaid."

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I go back to the tape that Ruth's son Andre recorded

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shortly before taking his own life at the age of 37.

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It seems that Ruth's feelings for David, which had driven her to kill,

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eclipsed everything -

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her feelings for Andre, and even her own execution.

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I wonder whether Ruth's solicitor John Bickford

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accepted her wish to die, because he'd fought hard

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to get a recommendation of mercy from the jury.

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I discover this plea letter from Bickford to Gwilym Lloyd George,

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the Home Secretary.

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Bickford explains what he had wanted to come out of the trial -

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that Ruth was a damaged woman,

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the victim of sustained psychological and emotional abuse

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at the hands of David Blakely.

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Because I love you.

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Because I'm going to marry you,

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and I don't want to spend my honeymoon hanging around Sing Sing

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blowing kisses to you in the exercise yard.

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David's violence was something Ruth had played down in the witness box.

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Ruth was sentenced to hang three weeks after her verdict,

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which offered a very short window to win a reprieve.

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I've come to the Foreign and Commonwealth offices.

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In 1955,

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this is where Home Secretary Lloyd George had his office.

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The decision to grant Ruth a reprieve rested with him.

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And it was from here that he pondered her fate

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against a backdrop of social change.

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There were increasing calls to abolish capital punishment,

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but the Conservative administration in office

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had made keeping it a campaign promise.

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Murder as such demanded the death penalty, subject, of course,

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to the right of appeal, and the right of reprieve

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by the Home Secretary.

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1953 - there was a Royal Commission two years before,

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because there was concern in capital cases

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that people were being hung,

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when in fact there were all sorts of mental conditions,

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including what became known as diminished responsibility.

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The defence of diminished responsibility,

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whereby a potential verdict of murder is reduced to manslaughter,

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would only become law in England in 1957, two years after Ruth's death.

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It was a crucial aspect of the movement to end capital punishment,

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which had intensified around two recent cases.

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Timothy Evans, wrongfully hanged

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for the murder of his wife and daughter in 1950,

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and Derek Bentley,

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wrongfully hanged in 1953 for the murder of a policeman.

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Ruth's case became part of the national debate,

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and as I discover in Home Office files,

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ordinary members of the public wanted their say.

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Some had written in support of execution.

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Men and women from all walks of life called Ruth "cold-blooded"...

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..a "prostitute,"

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a "foul harpy,"

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a "reptile."

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There's even a poem.

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There is the man who fears that if Ruth is reprieved,

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it will give his wife licence to kill him...

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I'm not mixed up in anything. Get your hands off.

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..and a woman who says that if she doesn't hang,

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hundreds of homes will shake.

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These letters would not be out of place in 19th-century Britain.

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They reduced Ruth to a dangerous type

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whose reprieve could shake the very foundations of society.

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Can you spot what she's doing wrong?

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But there are far more letters in favour of saving Ruth Ellis.

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I can see from the addresses and the way they describe themselves,

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that people across classes, and genders, and occupations,

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feel hugely invested in Ruth's fate.

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They point to her miscarriage, how she was mentally unbalanced,

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her two small children, that execution is monstrous, barbaric,

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that her abusive background should be taken into account.

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People write that she is a social and moral product

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of the post-war years.

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They refer to equality between the sexes.

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Yes, the two housewives find time in between their normal chores

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to tackle the man-size job of bricklaying.

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These letters speak of a modern Britain,

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and they accept Ruth as a modern woman.

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This is very different from how Ruth has been treated by the press,

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the police and the court,

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who mainly looked at her through the lens of class and gender prejudice.

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I might have known no woman could be on the level.

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She can with a man she REALLY loves.

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I'm struck that the Home Office

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conscientiously responds to every single letter.

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I contact social historian Frank Maude

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for insight into the Home Office reaction to the public.

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We meet in one of the few Soho clubs that survives from the 1950s.

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I think there are, at that moment, er...

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issues about capital punishment, really,

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which have surfaced in the Christie case,

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and the campaign for the abolition of the death penalty

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is accelerating in the mid-1950s.

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In 1950, Timothy Evans had hanged for a murder

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that was actually committed by serial killer John Christie.

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And it's almost as though the police and the Home Office

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are constantly looking over their shoulder

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to see that everything must be done in triplicate,

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four times, five times.

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Just a degree of nervousness, I think,

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about public responses to legal execution.

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But despite the volume of correspondence,

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the Home Secretary is unmoved.

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I find this confusing,

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as I know that a death sentence wasn't always as final as it sounds.

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In the week before Ruth Ellis was hung, he reprieved another woman,

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a woman who'd killed a neighbour after a seven-year feud -

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murdered her with a spade.

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Apparently that's reprievable.

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And I think two other men were reprieved

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in the same spring period, 1955.

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Why not Ruth Ellis?

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I think there was a social attitude taken towards her,

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because of the work she did, because she was a glamour model,

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because she was a nightclub hostess,

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and I think that infected possibly the Home Secretary as well.

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From what Michael tells me, it seems it's not the crime,

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but Ruth herself,

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who was irredeemable to the government of the day.

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I think the moral landscape which surrounds the trial

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is quite hard-nosed.

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I think... I couldn't imagine a case of this sort

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leading to a reprieve in that period, actually.

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Just think of the context of the mid-1950s.

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Think about the emphasis on domesticity,

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on maternalism, which is,

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you know, so central to women's magazines

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like Woman and Woman's Own, the big sellers of the mid-1950s.

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Think about the Queen, and the way she's portrayed

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as sovereign in the early 1950s, as wife and mother in particular,

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as well as head of the Commonwealth, and all of her public role,

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a big emphasis on her maternal and domestic role.

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So, Ruth represents everything which is abhorrent

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to the conservative standards of 1950s Britain.

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It seems the same prejudices that played out

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during her investigation and trial

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were affecting her chances of reprieve.

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On the 11th of July 1955, two days before Ruth's scheduled hanging,

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Lloyd George announces that his decision is final.

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He says he has not discovered any special considerations

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in Ruth's case, that the crime was premeditated,

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and carried out with deliberation.

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He says that Ruth's sex shouldn't be grounds for preferential treatment,

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that the prisoner had expressed no remorse.

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"If her reprieve were granted in this case,

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"I think we should have seriously to consider

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"whether capital punishment should be retained as a penalty."

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This seems the heart of the issue.

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Lloyd George belongs to a party who have backed capital punishment.

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If a woman who stated in court that she intended to kill her lover

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didn't hang, who could?

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On the 11th of July, the prison doctor writes

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that Ruth is informed the reprieve has failed,

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and notes her weight - 103 pounds.

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But then, she does something surprising.

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Until now, she has done almost nothing to help her own defence.

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But on the 11th of July,

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the same day she's told she won't be granted reprieve,

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she fires her lawyer John Bickford...

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And I'm beginning to wonder if my attorney is for me.

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..and hires a new lawyer called Victor Mishcon.

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Has Ruth decided she wants to live?

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Mum went to see her a few days before,

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so...perhaps Ruth did realise that she needed to speak up.

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But why wouldn't she have done that through Bickford?

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I don't know.

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That's why I think something was going on.

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That Bickford was involved with...?

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Desmond Cussen and Bickford.

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My father saw them chatting on the stairs, as two friends,

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and then when my father walked up,

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they sort of looked as if they didn't know each other.

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Desmond Cussen was Ruth's other lover,

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who I'm certain had more involvement in the crime

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than the jury in Ruth's trial ever knew.

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And then when my father -

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they saw my father walking towards them,

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they separated, and made out they didn't know each other.

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But he'd seen a glimpse of them chatting as friends.

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So, he... Yeah.

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And I think that's where it comes from Mum

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to say to Ruth, "Change the solicitor, speak up for yourself."

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Did Ruth fire Bickford

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because of his relationship with Desmond Cussen?

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According to Bickford,

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Cussen admitted that he had provided Ruth with the murder weapon,

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drove her to find David, and trained her to shoot the gun.

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But Bickford never revealed the information to the police or court,

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maintaining that's what Ruth wanted.

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It appears Ruth was conflicted when it came to Cussen.

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Bickford discussed his sacking during a 1977 TV interview.

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She said, "No wonder he hasn't been to see me.

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"You've been taking money from Cussen...

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"..to see that I go down," or words to that effect, "and...

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"..he goes free."

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I must, of course, ask you, Mr Bickford,

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did Mr Cussen ever give you money?

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Certainly not, my friend.

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I asked John Bickford's nephew, David,

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if he can shed light on the relationship

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between his uncle and Desmond Cussen.

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Do you know when he met Cussen for the first time?

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I don't. I assume...

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I don't. I don't. I can't assume anything.

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-No.

-But he didn't mention whether or not he'd known him before the case?

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No.

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No.

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John Bickford had done everything he possibly could to save her,

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and at the last minute, she had no hesitation in saying,

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"Well, I'm going to go to somebody else."

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What does that tell us about her?

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That she was really damaged.

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Really damaged.

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And that John had got it absolutely right.

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Whether Ruth was correct in her suspicions of Bickford or deluded,

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by the 12th of July, one day before she is due to hang,

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she has a new lawyer.

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Victor Mishcon,

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who would one day represent Diana, Princess of Wales in her divorce,

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had handled Ruth's own divorce from dentist George Ellis.

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Victor Mishcon was a great lawyer, and I knew him, and a very fine man.

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I was in the House of Lords with him in the years leading up, you know,

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before he died.

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He was a very distinguished lawyer,

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and a very clever, astute person around the human condition,

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and he said to her,

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"Tell me, it's important to get your story out about what happened.

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"It's not going to probably make a difference to you,

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"but your son deserves to know.

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"Your son deserves to know."

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And it was a piece of very, very wise

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and clever psychological work on his part.

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So, in just one visit, Mishcon has persuaded Ruth

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to tell her side of the story regarding the day of the murder,

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something she didn't do during police questioning, the trial,

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or Bickford's appeals.

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Ruth's niece Marlene has never seen the statement

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that Ruth made on that day.

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"I, Ruth Ellis, have been advised by Mr Victor Mishcon

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"to tell the whole truth in regard to the circumstances

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"leading up to the killing of David Blakely,

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"and it is only with the greatest reluctance

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"that I have decided to tell how it was

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"that I got the gun with which I shot Blakely."

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She says she spent the day drinking Pernod with Desmond Cussen,

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her close confidant and sometimes lover.

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"All I remember is that Desmond gave me a loaded gun.

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"Desmond was jealous of Blakely, as, in fact, Blakely was of Desmond.

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"I would say this - they hated each other.

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"I was in such a dazed state that I cannot remember what was said.

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"I rushed out as soon as he gave me the gun.

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"He stayed in the flat.

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"I rushed back after a second or two, and said,

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""Will you drive me to Hampstead?"

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"He did so, and left me at the top of Tanza Road."

0:21:400:21:43

So, had he not given her the gun, she wouldn't have shot him.

0:21:450:21:48

So, he was as much...

0:21:520:21:53

..to blame as she was, really.

0:21:550:21:57

This contradicts what Ruth told the police,

0:22:010:22:05

which is that she had had the gun in her possession for years,

0:22:050:22:09

that on the night of the murder,

0:22:090:22:11

she took a taxi alone to the Magdala pub,

0:22:110:22:14

where she fired six bullets at David Blakely...

0:22:140:22:18

Put down that gun.

0:22:190:22:20

GUNSHOT

0:22:200:22:21

..four of which hit their target.

0:22:210:22:24

Ruth is now confessing that she was not the only person

0:22:240:22:28

involved in the murder.

0:22:280:22:29

If Lloyd George thought there were no special considerations

0:22:300:22:34

in Ruth's case before, would this change his mind?

0:22:340:22:38

We know that Mishcon recognised

0:22:380:22:41

that there was a problem with the conviction,

0:22:410:22:44

and the safety of the conviction of Ruth Ellis.

0:22:440:22:47

And even though it was, you know, literally,

0:22:470:22:50

hours before she was to be hung,

0:22:500:22:53

he did his absolute best to try and either use it

0:22:530:22:57

to obtain some measure of clemency, and to commute the sentence,

0:22:570:23:02

or perhaps to move towards an appeal or a retrial.

0:23:020:23:06

But it's important to recognise that, even at that point,

0:23:060:23:11

Ruth Ellis was saying to Mishcon, "I don't want you to do this.

0:23:110:23:14

"I do not want you going down this road."

0:23:140:23:17

And he understood that, as a lawyer, he had a higher calling,

0:23:170:23:21

which was to put the best case he could for his client.

0:23:210:23:27

And Mishcon isn't the only one still fighting.

0:23:270:23:30

It's 12:30pm the day before Ruth is scheduled to hang.

0:23:310:23:35

The gates of Holloway Prison are crowded with protesters chanting,

0:23:350:23:39

"Ellis-Bentley-Evans."

0:23:390:23:41

Putting Ruth's name together with two men

0:23:410:23:43

who were hanged for crimes they were subsequently cleared of.

0:23:430:23:46

In four hours, Albert Pierrepoint's preparations will begin.

0:23:480:23:54

The execution chamber is usually next door to the condemned cell.

0:23:540:23:57

It is a small room with a trap in the centre of the floor.

0:23:570:24:02

A bag is filled with sand, and we rehearse the drop,

0:24:020:24:05

to see that all is in order.

0:24:050:24:07

Mishcon goes to Whitehall to speak to Frank Newsome,

0:24:070:24:10

the permanent under-secretary.

0:24:100:24:12

But he is at Ascot, so his deputy Philip Allen

0:24:140:24:17

gets an announcement made over Tannoy,

0:24:170:24:20

and calls him back to the office.

0:24:200:24:22

Now, what's all this about?

0:24:220:24:25

It looks as though Ruth's confession may indeed provide

0:24:250:24:27

the special considerations that Lloyd George felt were lacking.

0:24:270:24:33

Philip Allen asked the detectives on Ruth's case whether,

0:24:330:24:36

given her statement,

0:24:360:24:38

it would be possible to charge Cussen as an accessory.

0:24:380:24:42

Look, I don't know anything about all this.

0:24:420:24:44

-Hardly sufficient evidence to hang a cat on.

-Oh, I've plenty more.

0:24:440:24:47

The police report that it is possible, given evidence,

0:24:470:24:51

but the most important consideration

0:24:510:24:53

must be that Cussen knew the revolver he had given her

0:24:530:24:56

was to be used for the purpose of shooting Blakely,

0:24:560:24:59

and this must be substantiated by evidence other than Ellis's.

0:24:590:25:03

Basically, the source of the information

0:25:040:25:06

that Cussen gave her the gun

0:25:060:25:08

was the person who was convicted of murder.

0:25:080:25:10

So the question was, why would we believe her, a convicted murderess,

0:25:100:25:15

when she says that he was the person who gave her the gun?

0:25:150:25:18

And she'd given a different account to the police,

0:25:180:25:21

which was that she'd been given it in lieu of a debt.

0:25:210:25:23

Er...

0:25:230:25:25

How would you know what to believe? No jury would convict him.

0:25:250:25:28

Why would she be credible? No court would be able to rely on her.

0:25:280:25:32

He was a lucky man, Cussen.

0:25:320:25:34

He was lucky because she was...

0:25:340:25:36

In many ways, the most honourable thing in all of this

0:25:360:25:40

is that she decided to carry this herself,

0:25:400:25:44

to be the person who carried the can.

0:25:440:25:48

So, I mean, it is interesting.

0:25:480:25:50

He owed her a lot.

0:25:500:25:52

So Cussen's involvement may amount

0:25:530:25:56

to what the Home Secretary has termed a special consideration.

0:25:560:25:59

But only if it's corroborated by someone other than Ruth.

0:25:590:26:03

Bickford knows, but isn't saying anything,

0:26:050:26:07

because he says his client asked him not to.

0:26:070:26:10

Andre knows, but no-one thought to ask him.

0:26:100:26:13

And now, just hours remain until Ruth will lose her life.

0:26:140:26:19

When I probe a little deeper into the files,

0:26:260:26:29

I discover that, weeks earlier, Ruth's close friend Jackie Dyer

0:26:290:26:33

had come forward, first to the Home Office, and then to the police.

0:26:330:26:38

She, too, tells the police that Cussen had provided Ruth with a gun,

0:26:380:26:43

and drove her to the scene of the murder.

0:26:430:26:45

This is two weeks before Ruth's confession,

0:26:460:26:50

and would have left plenty of time to investigate.

0:26:500:26:53

But the detective chief inspector

0:26:530:26:55

had concluded that she was unreliable,

0:26:550:26:58

due to being a French woman.

0:26:580:27:00

And he reported back to the Home Office.

0:27:020:27:05

"I am of the opinion that Cussen did not supply the gun...

0:27:050:27:08

"neither did he drive Mrs Ellis to Hampstead on that night."

0:27:080:27:12

It's starting to feel like the police

0:27:130:27:15

were just not inclined to properly investigate Cussen.

0:27:150:27:19

And the man himself had sworn to the police,

0:27:190:27:22

in a statement riddled with gaps and inconsistencies,

0:27:220:27:25

that he wasn't involved.

0:27:250:27:27

Acting on a directive from the Home Office

0:27:290:27:31

the night before the execution,

0:27:310:27:34

two inspectors are sent to Desmond Cussen's home

0:27:340:27:36

in Goodwood Court to try to locate him.

0:27:360:27:39

At some point that evening, they give up and go home.

0:27:390:27:42

Mishcon gets a phone call at 2:00am.

0:27:450:27:47

The execution is going ahead.

0:27:500:27:52

I think that, to me, was the most extraordinary thing,

0:27:540:27:57

that if they actually thought

0:27:570:27:59

that Cussen might be involved in some way...

0:27:590:28:03

you find him.

0:28:030:28:05

I mean, it was much easier to find people in those days,

0:28:050:28:09

and they could easily have extended the period,

0:28:090:28:14

and told Mr Pierrepoint

0:28:140:28:16

that he didn't have to hang anybody that morning,

0:28:160:28:19

and I'm sure he would have adjusted to that.

0:28:190:28:21

But Lloyd George was adamant.

0:28:280:28:30

He is reported to have said,

0:28:300:28:31

"If she doesn't hang tomorrow, she never will."

0:28:310:28:35

Ruth was hanged at 9:00am on the 13th of July 1955

0:28:420:28:48

by Albert Pierrepoint.

0:28:480:28:50

He would retire the following year

0:28:500:28:52

after conducting the last execution of a woman in Britain.

0:28:520:28:55

To me, the documents pertaining to Ruth's death

0:28:570:29:00

speak more loudly than any image could.

0:29:000:29:04

They are so spare and efficient.

0:29:040:29:06

A bureaucratic box ticked.

0:29:060:29:09

Just three months after her arrest, Ruth was dead.

0:29:130:29:17

A Conservative Home Secretary had refused to grant a reprieve,

0:29:180:29:22

against the wishes of a large number of people

0:29:220:29:25

who were uncomfortable with her sentence,

0:29:250:29:27

and despite the emergence of new evidence.

0:29:270:29:30

It was an extraordinary decision, in John's mind, that she hanged.

0:29:310:29:35

He really couldn't understand why.

0:29:350:29:38

I don't think anybody did at the time.

0:29:380:29:41

The only person who understood why was probably the Home Secretary.

0:29:410:29:44

I don't think even Justice Havers really expected her to hang.

0:29:460:29:52

He expected her to be found guilty, that's for sure.

0:29:520:29:55

Which she was, no doubt about that.

0:29:550:29:58

But Ruth's hanging was not the end of the story.

0:30:010:30:04

In early 1956, six months after Ruth's execution,

0:30:050:30:10

crime reporter Duncan Webb, who had interviewed Ruth before she died,

0:30:100:30:14

petitioned Gwilym Lloyd George to reopen the case.

0:30:140:30:18

Right, this is the letter from Duncan Webb to the Home Secretary

0:30:180:30:22

in February '56.

0:30:220:30:24

So he's offering the Home Secretary access to some of the documents

0:30:240:30:30

that he's come across which indicate that Ruth Ellis

0:30:300:30:34

should not have been executed.

0:30:340:30:36

So it's a sign that he's going for the Home Secretary.

0:30:360:30:41

"Here and now, I challenge Lloyd George

0:30:410:30:44

"to justify the wanton killing of Ruth Ellis.

0:30:440:30:47

"I challenge him to read my evidence,

0:30:470:30:49

"to study and investigate my facts,

0:30:490:30:52

"and to prove they do not amount to a case

0:30:520:30:55

"warranting a full-scale inquiry into the murder investigation

0:30:550:30:59

"which sent Ruth Ellis to the gallows."

0:30:590:31:02

Duncan Webb is making the point that he should be ashamed of himself,

0:31:040:31:07

and I think quite rightly.

0:31:070:31:09

I discovered that the source

0:31:110:31:13

of Duncan Webb's new evidence was Andre.

0:31:130:31:15

During my investigation, snippets of what he knew have emerged.

0:31:180:31:22

But Andre had never been spoken to by anyone in authority.

0:31:220:31:27

Now, finally, his version of events was going to see the light of day.

0:31:270:31:32

Andre remembers a conversation between Ruth and Desmond.

0:31:330:31:37

"If I had a gun, I would shoot him".

0:31:370:31:40

"I have one, but it's old and rusty, and needs oiling.

0:31:400:31:44

"Shall I get it?"

0:31:440:31:45

On the morning of the murder,

0:31:520:31:53

Desmond and Ruth were meant to drop Andre at Hampstead Fair.

0:31:530:31:58

But it was closed, so they took him with them to Penn, Buckinghamshire,

0:31:580:32:02

to try to find David.

0:32:020:32:04

He remembers his mother bought an Easter egg for him

0:32:040:32:07

from a sweet shop, and he was nibbling on it and reading a comic

0:32:070:32:10

when they left that night.

0:32:100:32:12

The detail is heartbreaking.

0:32:130:32:16

Andre also states that Ruth's solicitor, Bickford,

0:32:170:32:20

accompanied Cussen when Andre was delivered to his aunt

0:32:200:32:25

the day after the murder...

0:32:250:32:26

..which is when Andre was supposedly told

0:32:280:32:31

to keep quiet about what he witnessed.

0:32:310:32:34

If true, it explains why Ruth's family

0:32:340:32:36

maintain that Bickford and Cussen were connected.

0:32:360:32:39

The Home Office are forced to respond

0:32:420:32:45

to Duncan Webb's allegations.

0:32:450:32:47

Andre's testimony -

0:32:470:32:49

the testimony that was never sought by the police

0:32:490:32:51

who investigated Ruth's crime - has finally come to light.

0:32:510:32:55

I ask a serving detective called Simon Davy

0:32:570:33:01

to help me interpret the Home Office's response to Duncan Webb.

0:33:010:33:05

What does it say about the boy, and whether what the boy would say...

0:33:050:33:08

It says that "This suggestion of incitement

0:33:080:33:10

"rests solely on the statement of the boy.

0:33:100:33:13

"Even if this conversation is incitement,

0:33:140:33:17

"there's no corroboration of his story, and none can be forthcoming."

0:33:170:33:21

And I totally agree with that,

0:33:210:33:23

but I still feel that those questions

0:33:230:33:26

need to be put to Cussen in interview, directly.

0:33:260:33:29

The Home Office's position is surprising.

0:33:290:33:32

Both Ruth's last-minute confession and the Jackie Dyer statement

0:33:320:33:36

corroborate Andre's account.

0:33:360:33:39

But is the boy's testimony not evidence?

0:33:390:33:41

Would it not be?

0:33:410:33:42

Well, I think it's enough to suspect him

0:33:420:33:44

of involvement and to arrest him.

0:33:440:33:45

-Where were you yesterday afternoon, Mr Warner?

-Well, let's see.

0:33:450:33:49

In my job I get around a bit, you know.

0:33:490:33:51

This is the kind of difference in culture,

0:33:510:33:53

is that decisions are being made.

0:33:530:33:55

"OK, we could go down this road,

0:33:550:33:57

"but it's not going to produce anything, so we're not going to."

0:33:570:33:59

Whereas I think nowadays, we'd probably say,

0:33:590:34:01

"Well if we can go down this road,

0:34:010:34:03

"and it's not going to cause any harm, let's go down that road."

0:34:030:34:05

And just to double check that it's not going to produce anything.

0:34:060:34:10

And it's surprising.

0:34:110:34:13

I know from the tape that Andre wanted to be heard.

0:34:140:34:16

Webb's appeal to the Home Office leads to nothing.

0:34:290:34:32

It feels like the last trail leading to Cussen has been erased.

0:34:320:34:36

The latest in a series of moments where questions were raised

0:34:390:34:42

about Cussen's involvement,

0:34:420:34:44

only to be dismissed without comprehensive examination.

0:34:440:34:48

There were clues that he may have had

0:34:490:34:51

a more central role in the killing

0:34:510:34:53

during the police investigation, while Ruth awaited execution,

0:34:530:34:57

and after she was dead.

0:34:570:34:59

But still he was never arrested.

0:35:010:35:04

Why?

0:35:040:35:05

I go back to the Duncan Webb report.

0:35:070:35:10

I find something I initially missed.

0:35:100:35:13

Long before the murder,

0:35:130:35:14

Cussen has talked to Ruth's parents of a brother he'd had,

0:35:140:35:17

a barrister working at the Director of Public Prosecution's office.

0:35:170:35:21

And do you find the prisoner guilty or not guilty of murder?

0:35:210:35:26

I discover a brother called William, but he was not a lawyer.

0:35:260:35:30

So who is this barrister Desmond is related to?

0:35:310:35:34

I dig a little deeper, and I find the right person.

0:35:340:35:38

Desmond had a cousin called Edward James Patrick Cussen, a barrister.

0:35:390:35:44

This census document from 1911 shows Edward's parents and brother

0:35:450:35:50

were living with Desmond's father in a house in Putney.

0:35:500:35:54

This suggests to me that the two families were close.

0:35:560:35:59

Is this why Desmond had referred to Edward as a brother?

0:35:590:36:02

At the time of Ruth's trial,

0:36:050:36:07

Edward was a junior Treasury Counsel member,

0:36:070:36:10

part of a small group of top prosecutors

0:36:100:36:12

who were based at the Old Bailey.

0:36:120:36:15

Would this mean that he worked alongside Christmas Humphreys,

0:36:150:36:18

the prosecutor in Ruth's case?

0:36:180:36:20

And if so, could that have affected

0:36:210:36:23

how Desmond was handled by the police and the court?

0:36:230:36:28

I asked Richard Whitham, who until recently

0:36:280:36:31

held the same post as Humphreys.

0:36:310:36:33

So this is the list of all of the persons

0:36:330:36:36

who've been nominated Treasury Counsellor.

0:36:360:36:41

Yeah, independent members of the bar, different,

0:36:410:36:43

some from the same chambers, but a mix of different chambers.

0:36:430:36:47

They were working in the same room.

0:36:470:36:49

If you've got a problem that somebody else has had before,

0:36:490:36:52

sharing difficulties,

0:36:520:36:54

very much a team performance of helping others.

0:36:540:37:00

And there's Christmas Humphreys.

0:37:000:37:02

Christmas Humphreys, so appointed in '34.

0:37:020:37:05

Now, one thing we discovered since the last time we spoke to you...

0:37:050:37:09

..which we were really surprised to discover is,

0:37:120:37:15

-have you ever heard of Edward Cussen?

-No.

0:37:150:37:17

Because Edward Cussen was junior Treasury Counsel in 1955.

0:37:170:37:21

He later became senior Treasury Counsel.

0:37:210:37:25

He was also Desmond's first cousin.

0:37:250:37:27

Because one of the things we're trying to assess

0:37:300:37:34

is why Desmond Cussen wasn't interrogated more deeply,

0:37:340:37:38

and why he was never arrested.

0:37:380:37:40

Could an answer be that he had a cousin in the Treasury Counsel?

0:37:400:37:46

Would that help?

0:37:460:37:48

I can understand why you ask the question.

0:37:480:37:50

It seems to me quite a leap to think that...

0:37:500:37:52

..the police officers decided not to ask,

0:37:540:37:59

investigate something, because that police officer knew

0:37:590:38:02

that Cussen was a Treasury Counsel.

0:38:020:38:05

And it may well be it was very close-knit and everybody did know,

0:38:050:38:08

but did the investigating officer know?

0:38:080:38:11

It's very important, certainly now, to have transparency.

0:38:110:38:16

And if somebody thought somebody wasn't prosecuted

0:38:160:38:19

or called as a witness or investigated

0:38:190:38:21

because of their status,

0:38:210:38:23

people would be very upset, and rightly so.

0:38:230:38:25

But you would declare it.

0:38:250:38:27

I would imagine it was rather different then.

0:38:290:38:32

In retrospect, and in a different time,

0:38:320:38:36

perhaps easier to say whether things were

0:38:360:38:40

not investigated as fully as they might have been

0:38:400:38:43

because of who people were and whatever else,

0:38:430:38:46

isn't leading to a more comfortable trial for her.

0:38:460:38:50

So the fact that somebody else may or may not have been culpable,

0:38:510:38:56

or perhaps should have been prosecuted,

0:38:560:38:59

if there was the evidence, that doesn't really help her.

0:38:590:39:02

It doesn't make it OK.

0:39:030:39:04

Oh, absolutely, it doesn't make it OK.

0:39:040:39:06

Richard is right.

0:39:080:39:10

One can't assume that just because

0:39:100:39:12

Desmond was related to a senior barrister,

0:39:120:39:15

that there was any suggestion of wrongdoing.

0:39:150:39:18

There is no evidence that the police knew about the connection,

0:39:180:39:21

or considered it important.

0:39:210:39:23

But I wonder if being connected to such an influential figure

0:39:230:39:27

could have helped Desmond Cussen in other ways.

0:39:270:39:29

I don't want to make assumptions based simply on type.

0:39:340:39:37

That's the same sort of prejudice

0:39:370:39:39

which contributed to Ruth's execution.

0:39:390:39:41

I decide to find out more about Edward Cussen's career,

0:39:420:39:46

and whom he came in contact with.

0:39:460:39:48

This takes me to Oxford, to Dr Roderick Bailey,

0:39:490:39:52

a Second World War historian.

0:39:520:39:54

-Hello.

-Hi.

0:39:590:40:02

OK, so Cussen worked for MI5

0:40:020:40:04

pretty much for the entire Second World War,

0:40:040:40:07

and MI5, during the Second World War, the security service,

0:40:070:40:10

it was a domestic intelligence.

0:40:100:40:12

So that's home intelligence, home-grown intelligence concerns.

0:40:120:40:15

Not like MI6, which is external,

0:40:150:40:17

which is gathering intelligence overseas.

0:40:170:40:19

MI5 is about security and counter-espionage

0:40:190:40:23

inside the British Isles.

0:40:230:40:25

They had various, several duties during the Second World War, MI5.

0:40:250:40:29

So for example, MI5's roles during the war included

0:40:290:40:33

monitoring German agents, counter-espionage,

0:40:330:40:36

German communications inside Britain.

0:40:360:40:40

But then, as the war develops, he also moves on to another role.

0:40:420:40:45

Cussen's role towards the end of the war is dealing with

0:40:450:40:48

what were called renegades,

0:40:480:40:50

so that's investigating cases of renegade Englishmen,

0:40:500:40:54

British nationals, who have been working for,

0:40:540:40:56

supposedly, working for the Germans,

0:40:560:40:59

or passing information to the Germans or other enemy countries.

0:40:590:41:03

I take this new information about Edward

0:41:050:41:08

back to the National Archives.

0:41:080:41:10

I discover Edward had meetings with Frank Newsome,

0:41:120:41:15

who would go on to be permanent under-secretary

0:41:150:41:18

to Gwilym Lloyd George,

0:41:180:41:20

and who was the person Mishcon approached

0:41:200:41:22

with Ruth's final statement.

0:41:220:41:24

So Edward was well connected, not only in the legal establishment,

0:41:250:41:29

but in government.

0:41:290:41:31

Getting in right with politicians is a good idea.

0:41:310:41:34

And remember, if you get into trouble,

0:41:340:41:36

he's a mighty good friend to have around.

0:41:360:41:39

I need to speak to someone who knew Edward personally,

0:41:390:41:43

to find out if these connections

0:41:430:41:44

could have led to preferential treatment for his cousin.

0:41:440:41:48

Could they explain why Desmond was never investigated

0:41:480:41:51

for his likely role in the murder, even after Ruth's death?

0:41:510:41:54

Edward's daughter, Fleur, agrees to meet me in Oxford,

0:42:000:42:03

where her father was a student.

0:42:030:42:05

Do you remember having heard

0:42:070:42:09

about the Ruth Ellis case in your childhood?

0:42:090:42:11

I just had always known that there was a connection, that it was...

0:42:110:42:16

You know, that Desmond Cussen was our cousin,

0:42:160:42:20

and that he'd been involved.

0:42:200:42:23

And that...

0:42:250:42:27

There was always... I think I remember, sort of, it was always,

0:42:270:42:31

you know, "poor Desmond."

0:42:310:42:33

My father perhaps would have felt that Desmond needed looking after,

0:42:330:42:38

and...so I think would have done for him what he could.

0:42:380:42:42

Do you think he would have helped him with legal advice before that,

0:42:420:42:45

while he was all embroiled in it?

0:42:450:42:47

I would have thought he would have, yes, if Desmond had asked for it.

0:42:470:42:50

So far as he could, you know.

0:42:520:42:54

Definitely put him in touch with people,

0:42:550:42:58

perhaps, or something like that.

0:42:580:43:00

-Did he mention, ever, Christmas Humphreys?

-Oh, yes, very much so.

0:43:000:43:02

In fact, he wrote me a very charming and kind letter when my father died.

0:43:020:43:07

Do you think people knew that they were related?

0:43:070:43:10

People in the legal profession, definitely.

0:43:120:43:14

I mean, it's not that common a name.

0:43:140:43:17

So I'm sure they did.

0:43:190:43:20

I can't imagine that they wouldn't.

0:43:210:43:23

Especially as...

0:43:230:43:26

You know, my father knew all the people involved in the trial

0:43:260:43:32

quite well, I would have thought...

0:43:320:43:34

..so I'm sure they knew that this was his cousin.

0:43:350:43:40

I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't.

0:43:400:43:42

One of the big mysteries around the Ruth Ellis case,

0:43:420:43:45

and there are a number of them, is why Desmond wasn't ever arrested,

0:43:450:43:49

and also why they didn't interrogate more fully his involvement.

0:43:490:43:55

And why do you think?

0:43:550:43:57

Well, we wonder if it had something to do with your father.

0:43:570:43:59

Do you think your father could have had

0:43:590:44:01

-anything to do with him not being arrested?

-No.

0:44:010:44:03

No, definitely not, because I don't think

0:44:040:44:07

he would have wanted to have anything to do...

0:44:070:44:10

He wouldn't have wanted to...

0:44:100:44:12

..get in the way of a case taking its proper course.

0:44:130:44:19

I mean, anything he would have done...

0:44:190:44:22

He would have certainly been someone for Desmond to talk to...

0:44:220:44:25

..and he would have, I'm sure,

0:44:270:44:29

introduced him to good barristers, had he needed one.

0:44:290:44:35

He might even have advised him how to deal with an interview

0:44:360:44:40

if he was going to be interviewed by the police.

0:44:400:44:44

But he would never have prevented him being interviewed

0:44:440:44:47

if the police had suggested that they wanted to interview him.

0:44:470:44:51

I mean, that would have not been...

0:44:510:44:54

you know, the proper course of action.

0:44:540:44:57

I wonder, because he was so admired and loved,

0:44:570:45:00

you know, whether somebody,

0:45:000:45:02

without him requesting that, or even wanting it...

0:45:020:45:05

Oh, I see.

0:45:050:45:06

..would...sort of...

0:45:060:45:08

Yeah, well I suppose that's possible.

0:45:080:45:10

All I can judge on,

0:45:110:45:12

I'm certain my father would never have ASKED anyone to do anything.

0:45:120:45:16

But whether somebody did without being asked...

0:45:160:45:21

And it's important that one views what happened

0:45:230:45:26

through the eyes of then, not now.

0:45:260:45:28

Although it's interesting to look back on it now,

0:45:280:45:31

it was a very different world, wasn't it?

0:45:310:45:33

Edward did not intervene to help his cousin.

0:45:350:45:38

But it was indeed a different world.

0:45:400:45:43

And the same class prejudices that hurt Ruth might have helped Desmond.

0:45:430:45:47

The standards Ruth would be judged by today

0:45:500:45:52

are not the same as those she faced in 1955.

0:45:520:45:56

Some changes are dramatic - wholesale shifts in the law.

0:45:560:46:01

Others are more subtle,

0:46:010:46:02

like the shifting of unconscious prejudices,

0:46:020:46:05

and a move towards transparency.

0:46:050:46:07

The Home Office drew a line under Ruth's case

0:46:090:46:12

and the question of Cussen's involvement.

0:46:120:46:14

Something which Cussen denied up until his death in 1991.

0:46:150:46:20

Let me state quite clearly, I did not give Ruth the gun.

0:46:210:46:25

Nor on that occasion did I drive her up to Hampstead.

0:46:250:46:31

But the impact of Ruth's verdict and execution did not go away.

0:46:310:46:35

Millions are asking, should anyone hang at all,

0:46:360:46:40

or should there be degrees of murder?

0:46:400:46:42

For quite a long time, there had been discussions

0:46:440:46:47

about the need for a much more nuanced approach to homicide,

0:46:470:46:51

and I think that the Ruth Ellis case was the pinnacle of that.

0:46:510:46:56

And this came about with the creation of the Homicide Act in '57,

0:46:560:47:00

which then said,

0:47:000:47:01

actually, there should be ways of mitigating murder,

0:47:010:47:05

and turning it into manslaughter,

0:47:050:47:07

where someone is provoked beyond endurance and snaps,

0:47:070:47:11

and where somebody is suffering

0:47:110:47:16

from an abnormality of mind, and is therefore not,

0:47:160:47:20

shouldn't be held fully responsible for their actions.

0:47:200:47:24

And I think Ruth Ellis was impaired in her functioning,

0:47:240:47:26

but the law had not changed in time for her.

0:47:260:47:29

Two years after her death,

0:47:300:47:31

diminished responsibility offered the possibility of a verdict

0:47:310:47:35

of manslaughter in place of murder for defendants like Ruth.

0:47:350:47:39

It was a key shift which set the course

0:47:400:47:42

for the total abolishment of capital punishment in Great Britain

0:47:420:47:46

12 years later.

0:47:460:47:47

Soon after her execution, Andre was told the truth

0:47:520:47:56

about his mother's disappearance from his life.

0:47:560:47:59

In 1971,

0:48:100:48:12

Victorian Holloway Prison was demolished

0:48:120:48:15

to make way for a new one.

0:48:150:48:16

Today, I have to imagine the forbidding building

0:48:190:48:22

where so many protested Ruth's execution.

0:48:220:48:25

What's here now are the derelict remains of a modern prison,

0:48:270:48:31

closed for good in 2016.

0:48:310:48:34

Between 1903 and 1955, five women were executed here.

0:48:360:48:42

The last was Ruth.

0:48:420:48:44

She was buried on site.

0:48:450:48:47

But in 1971, Ruth's remains needed to be moved.

0:48:480:48:52

"I suppose you have heard no more from Mr Turner, or,

0:48:530:48:56

"as I believe he now calls himself, Mr McCallum."

0:48:560:49:00

That's Andre, who also went by the names Ellis and Hornby.

0:49:000:49:03

The Home Office eventually located him as next of kin.

0:49:060:49:10

They describe him as "A nervous, pale-faced,

0:49:130:49:17

"slightly shabby young man of 26,

0:49:170:49:19

"who looks as though he could do with a good meal.

0:49:190:49:22

"He believes passionately that his mother should not have been hanged,

0:49:220:49:26

"and the execution has clearly shaped the course of his life".

0:49:260:49:30

15 years after his mother's death,

0:49:310:49:34

Andre has been contacting New Scotland Yard.

0:49:340:49:37

There is a log of conversations with a Chief Inspector Mason,

0:49:380:49:42

who reports that Andre is schizophrenic.

0:49:420:49:44

A few months before, Andre telephoned,

0:49:460:49:49

saying that he had new evidence

0:49:490:49:50

concerning the murder of which his mother was convicted.

0:49:500:49:53

Andre decides to have his mother reburied

0:49:570:49:59

in Amersham, Buckinghamshire.

0:49:590:50:02

I visit the cemetery with ex-detective Brian Hook,

0:50:020:50:05

who helped me look into the police investigation, and who lives nearby.

0:50:050:50:09

And this is Ruth's grave.

0:50:120:50:14

It's in this corner here.

0:50:160:50:17

There was a headstone here until 1981 or 1982, when Andre,

0:50:180:50:24

in the throes of severe depression, destroyed it.

0:50:240:50:27

The only marker now, really, is that small triangular piece of concrete.

0:50:270:50:35

Just an unkempt, untidy corner in an...

0:50:350:50:40

..overgrown, unkempt cemetery.

0:50:410:50:46

Andre's choice of location suggests that his mother

0:50:460:50:49

may not be the only person he was mourning.

0:50:490:50:52

So the only reason she's in Amersham is that it's near David Blakely.

0:50:530:50:56

It's about as near as you could get.

0:50:560:50:58

Is her son buried there?

0:50:580:51:00

Yeah, his ashes are in there.

0:51:010:51:03

-His ashes are in there?

-Yeah.

0:51:030:51:05

I go back to Andre's tape, where he talks about his feelings for David,

0:51:080:51:13

who is buried only three miles up the road.

0:51:130:51:16

For David to have inspired that kind of feeling in Andre,

0:51:440:51:48

he must have been kind to him.

0:51:480:51:50

And, of course, he must have sometimes been kind to Ruth.

0:51:500:51:54

I now understand that it wasn't just the loss of Ruth

0:51:560:51:59

that Andre couldn't recover from.

0:51:590:52:01

It was the loss of both of them.

0:52:010:52:03

Ruth's crime claimed three lives.

0:52:320:52:34

David's, her own, and ultimately Andre's.

0:52:340:52:38

He didn't ever really make anything of himself.

0:52:380:52:41

He just sort of wandered, really.

0:52:430:52:45

Never really held a good job down.

0:52:490:52:51

Even with all that good education that he had.

0:52:530:52:55

And being a clever boy.

0:52:570:52:59

Young boy. Never...amounted to very much...

0:52:590:53:03

..and ended up in a one-room bedsit.

0:53:040:53:07

Why do you think he took his own life?

0:53:100:53:12

He'd had enough of life, I think.

0:53:160:53:18

Didn't turn out the way he wanted.

0:53:190:53:22

Missed his mother.

0:53:220:53:24

Carrying... Carrying all that with him.

0:53:240:53:27

I do understand why he did that.

0:53:290:53:31

Just had enough.

0:53:340:53:35

Did he give you any indication of his plans?

0:53:360:53:39

He was trying to give the children things.

0:53:400:53:42

-What was he giving them?

-All his little possessions,

0:53:420:53:45

all that he had in the world, which wasn't a lot, but...

0:53:450:53:50

His tape recorder.

0:53:500:53:51

He would record us all chatting, and say, "Come on, talk into it."

0:53:520:53:58

We'd all get embarrassed and say, "Don't be silly."

0:53:580:54:01

He'd say, "Come on, talk," and the children would talk to him.

0:54:010:54:04

-ON TAPE:

-Jolly good show!

0:54:040:54:06

And he'd always walk around with this microphone.

0:54:060:54:09

Yeah, he was always doing it.

0:54:110:54:13

INDISTINCT SINGING ON TAPE

0:54:130:54:19

48 years after her sister's death in 2003,

0:54:220:54:26

Muriel Jakubait tempted to appeal Ruth's verdict.

0:54:260:54:31

She wanted the court to reconsider Cussen's role.

0:54:310:54:33

Michael Mansfield QC was hired as her barrister.

0:54:370:54:40

By that stage, I'd done many miscarriage of justice cases.

0:54:410:54:45

I'd always thought that the humanity that needs to be infused

0:54:450:54:49

into the way we practice law had not happened.

0:54:490:54:53

And I'd always thought that this particular case illustrated,

0:54:530:54:58

if you like, the division between what's happening in the real world,

0:54:580:55:03

and the way the courts sometimes regard...

0:55:030:55:06

people who they think are a certain category

0:55:060:55:10

deserve to be treated in a particular way,

0:55:100:55:12

so they might be understanding of a situation.

0:55:120:55:17

Whereby, I think if Ruth Ellis were tried now, or even in 2003,

0:55:170:55:23

there would be a defence to go to a jury,

0:55:230:55:26

and I think she would have a very reasonable chance

0:55:260:55:30

of an acquittal on murder,

0:55:300:55:31

but a conviction on manslaughter, obviously.

0:55:310:55:33

The court upheld the original verdict,

0:55:330:55:36

saying that it was the correct judgment

0:55:360:55:39

according to the law of 1955.

0:55:390:55:41

Richard Whitham was junior counsel for the Crown.

0:55:450:55:49

Easiest to put it into a context.

0:55:490:55:53

Despite the interest in the case,

0:55:530:55:56

and despite all the matters that we've discussed,

0:55:560:55:59

and the tragedy of the whole thing...

0:55:590:56:02

..the court was of the view that it had probably

0:56:050:56:09

taken an unnecessary amount of the Court of Appeal's time.

0:56:090:56:13

And so they obviously formed a view

0:56:130:56:17

that their time could have been better spent.

0:56:170:56:22

The appeal had failed.

0:56:230:56:25

Ruth's sister Muriel was devastated.

0:56:260:56:29

The legacy of Ruth's crime had been catastrophic for her family.

0:56:290:56:33

These are Muriel's thoughts.

0:56:360:56:37

But Ruth's legacy for women in criminal justice is more hopeful.

0:56:550:56:59

We've learned a lot, even in the last 50 years,

0:57:000:57:03

about the human condition, and long may it be so,

0:57:030:57:06

because you can only deliver justice

0:57:060:57:09

if we understand the human beings that we're dealing with.

0:57:090:57:12

My journey began a year ago with Andre's objection

0:57:160:57:20

to the prosecutor's description of his mother.

0:57:200:57:22

Over the months that I have spent examining the police investigation,

0:57:350:57:39

trial and execution of Ruth Ellis, I have learned just how inadequate

0:57:390:57:44

the ancient expression "murder in cold blood" truly is.

0:57:440:57:48

In 1955,

0:57:500:57:52

the English criminal justice system was not able to consider

0:57:520:57:55

the complexity of Ruth and her crime.

0:57:550:57:59

She was a type - the case was open and shut.

0:57:590:58:02

Just two years later,

0:58:040:58:05

after diminished responsibility was introduced,

0:58:050:58:08

she may have been found guilty of manslaughter, and served a sentence.

0:58:080:58:12

And she'd be 90 now.

0:58:160:58:18

I might be able to speak to her.

0:58:190:58:21

I wonder what she'd have to say.

0:58:220:58:24

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