Nelson Mandela: The Homecoming

Good evening and welcome to Pretoria, the ninth day of mourning

for Nelson Mandela gave us a revealing and different glimpse of

Mandela's life, not Mandela the statesman acclaimed by President

Obama on Tuesday at the FNB Stadium in Soweto. Not Mandela mourned by

the thousands of South Africans who filed past his coffin over the past

three days. But Nelson Mandela, the freedom fighter, reclaimed by the

organisation that was his home, the ANC, the African National Congress.

It was the ANC which fought the battle against apartheid, first

peacefully and then under Mandela's leadership, by adopting a policy of

violence. A policy which led to his 27 and a half years of imprisonment.

It was the ANC which took the lead in negotiating the abolition of

apartheid. And it is the ANC which now forms the government of South

Africa. All sections of the ANC came to sing his praises and tell the

story of the struggle, MK, the military wing of the ANC was here,

the commonest party, fighters for women's writes, members of the

Mandela family and President Jacob Zuma who himself spent ten years in

prison on Robben Island. After the sendoff ceremony was over,

Mandela's coffin was placed in the hold of a huge C130 for a short

flight to Mthatha in the Eastern Cape. Just after midday, the plane

took off and Mandela left the capital Pretoria for the last time.

Already at face macro, a human chain had formed, an informal guard of

honour, with people waiting for his coffin to come past. They did not

have to wait too long because the hearse made its way along the road

to Mandela's home village of Qunu where the funeral will take place

early tomorrow morning. George Alagiah is in Qunu tonight. It may

be just a couple of hours flight from Pretoria, but the atmosphere

here in Qunu could not be more different. It is a bit like going

back in time. Nelson Mandela made the journey several times himself

when he was the president. He often said at heart he was a country boy.

All eyes are now on a small patch of land behind me. It is unremarkable

to look at but after this, it will be forever remembered as the last

resting place for one of the world's greatest statesman. From

where I am standing, I can just about see into Nelson Mandela's

family compound. The big white structure, that is the massive

marquee which will host the funeral itself. Away from the compound, in

the hills and villages around, there is a real sense that their most

famous son has finally come home. There is a tradition here that a

person must be buried near where their umbilical chord was buried

when they were born. So there is nothing exceptional about Mr Mandela

being buried here. Organising an international event in a remote area

like this would be tough at the best of times, but the organisers have

had to put up with some torrential rain over the last few days, as

heavy as anyone can remember at this time of year. I hope that gives you

some idea of this corner of the Eastern Cape, which, in a few hours,

will become the focus of global attention. When they have spoken

about it, the Mandela family themselves have said they do not

want this home to become a place of pilgrimage. I suppose they wanted to

stay what it was for Mr Mandela himself, a private place where his

then some of his happiest times. George, thank you very much. We will

be joining George Alagiah from time to time over today and tomorrow. I'm

joined by three guests here, Moeletsi Mbeki, a political analyst

who is the brother of the former president Thabo Mbeki. Yvonne

Muthien who is chair of the President's Advisory Council, and

Dial Dayana Ndima, who is a cultural and traditional expert, experts on

traditions anyway. Let's deal with today's events. What was the message

of today's events compared with those of the previous ceremonies in

the last four days? I thought the message was essentially the ANC

recounting Nelson Mandela's role as an activist in the ANC. That is how

I understood it. Although, of course, there has been some kind of

confusion as to whether we were dealing with the ANC or the South

African government. This has been one of the problems. But I thought

today it was essentially the ANC on its own saying farewell to Mandela.

And not using it as a political platform for the elections next

year, being dead straight in doing it. I thought they were straight.

The elections are months to come. I did not think it would have any

impact, even if they tried to use it for elections. Yvonne Muthien, what

did you make of it? It is important to remember that Mandela himself

said that he was a leader who was chosen by the ANC and that he was a

disciplined member of the ANC. And so the success of the struggle, the

negotiations that led to him becoming president was due to the

ANC. He always used that word disciplined, he said I am a

disciplined member and then he took the lead and consulted them after.

He also argued that he leads from behind and yet he was very much on

the front line. When MK was formed, the military wing, he was one of the

first to go out to receive military training. And yes, he was a very

determined man. But what does disciplined means? That he does what

he is told? He gets them to agree? Indeed. Once he has made up his

mind, he has a clear idea of what he wants to achieve. He does listen but

then he does what he needs to do anyway. Professor, I will talk to

you in a moment about another aspect of this ceremony which people are

intrigued about which is the tribal elders but first of all, let's have

a look at what did happen today. The day began at Waterkloof Air Force

Base. It was a very emotional day organised by the ANC, the

organisation which Nelson Mandela belonged to for most of his adult

life. The cortege carrying Nelson

Mandela's coffin arrived at Waterkloof Air Force Base for a

sendoff from the African National Congress, for its last journey home

to Qunu. Over 1000 people were there. Among them, President Zuma,

Mandela's widow, Graca and his second wife, Winnie. The coffin was

draped with the flag of South Africa but was replaced with the flag of

the ANC for the ceremony. The service began with the National

Anthem, accompanied on a solo violin.

The verses of the National Anthem son, as always, in five of the 11

languages most commonly sung here. The first tribute was from the trade

union movement. We have come here today to give our final sendoff to a

soldier who did his work for the ANC with exceptional devotion and

excellence. As I was struggling in my mind as to what to say on this

occasion today, I came across a piece of a paper entitled I am free.

It says, don't cry for me now I am free. I am following the path God

laid for me, I took his hand when I heard him call, I turned my back and

left it all. I could not stay another day to love, to laugh, work

or play, past left undone must stay that way, I found peace at the close

of day. If my passing has left a void, then fill it, with remembering

joy, friendship shared, I laugh, a kiss, oh yes, the things I too will

miss. We want to take a few minutes to

send our deepest condolences to Graca Machel, the Mandela family, to

the South African nation, the whole African continent, the world and

also the African National Congress, Mr President, for giving us this

brilliant revolutionaries. May you continue to produce many more

revolutionaries and may his fighting spirit live on. Long live the spirit

of comrades Nelson Mandela! Long-lived! Forward revolution

forward! Thank you. Next we heard from Mandla Mandela who was to

accompany his grandfather's coffin back to Qunu.

Some years back, when I was only a youngster, I used to hear youth in

Soweto shouting. And I used to think I was the popular kid, because my

name was being shouted. More profound, they used to say these are

Mandela, Viva. And I used to say my name and my surname in the same day,

I must be very important! Naive I was because I was just a

nine-year-old boy. My president, for the past three days, I have sat with

my grandfather while he has been lying in state. I have witnessed his

army, I have witnessed his people, I have witnessed ordinary South

Africans who walked this Long Walk To Freedom with him. And I can

assure the African National Congress today, that the future of this

country looks bright. Thank you very much, Mandla.

The people's poet recited in honour of Mandela. In 1912, the African

National Congress was born. The movement grew from strength to

strength, from urban to rural, from rural to the farms, from farms to

the hinterlands, from the hinterlands to the valleys. In

Africa, the greatest survivor, the survivor who survived all episodes

from assassinations, imprisonments, poisoning, orders, banishment,

cross-border raids. 100 years of exploitation and oppression. 100

years against injustice and tyranny, the ANC for better life,

the ANC for total emancipation. The movement produced the current test

of the leaders, the movement of people, the movement of

visionaries, the spear of the nation, MK at unleashed telling

blows. We salute the first black president of a democratic South

Africa. I dedicate this poem to the heroes of the struggle. My praising

cannot be complete unless I dedicate this praise to comrades Oliver

Tambo. The movement has survived all kinds of tragedies from infiltration

to abuse, from abuse to betrayal, from betrayal to resistance, from

resistance to resilience, from resilience to power and from power

to freedom! After those words, composed specially for today, Jacob

Zuma delivered his tribute. Today we are saying to Madiba, as

you came as a young man in Johannesburg, today, having

departed, we are now sending you back to a village at Qunu. We want

you to rest in peace there. We want you to always remember and guide

us. We are happy that we were still young -- we who are still young will

join you later, as you promised to establish a branch of the ANC, we

will join you there. Tomorrow we will be saying a final

goodbye to Madiba at Qunu, and I'm sure that many of us will be there.

We would like to say to Madiba, go well, Tata. You have played your

part, you have made your contribution. We will always

remember you, we will always keep you in our hearts. We will always

learn from your lessons. Amandla! After his speech, President Zuma led

the audience in a song specially written for the 100th anniversary of

the ANC. Finally, a vote of thanks from the

Mandela family. The Mandela family is not the only

family that had to share their leader, their father, their

grandfather with the African National Congress. Jacob Zuma, Thabo

Mbeki and all the former presidents of the African National Congress and

their families had to undergo gruelling sacrifice during those

days, and I would like to thank them as well.

APPLAUSE Good morning. We would also like to

thank the organisers of this event. Although our grandfather is

receiving a state funeral, the ANC was quite adamant in having this

ceremony, and we would like to thank you for this glorious sendoff. We

would like to thank all the ordinary members of the ANC. These past few

days have been quite difficult, and there were a lot of people who

ensured that people were fed and people were well taken care of. We

would like to thank you. I must say, from the numbers I see here

today, that next year's election should be quite a successful one!

CHEERS As we take our grandfather back to his final resting place, you

can be sure that there is a commitment from us that when he

arrives to the gates of heaven, he will arrive there with his

membership card close to him. Thank you.

And so ended the ANC farewell to Mandela. His close friend and fellow

prisoner joined other ANC party members to escort the coffin out of

the hangar at the airbase. And so the ANC, having said their

final goodbyes, the military takeover. Nelson Mandela's last

journey to his homeland, to Mthatha airport in the Eastern Cape.

Moeletsi Mbeki, do you feel the ANC think they have achieved everything

they set out to achieve? No, I don't think so. I think

Mandela's generation felt they achieved what they set out to

achieve, which was to get rid of apartheid and to initiate a

constitutional, democratic constitution for South Africa. That

is what they set out to achieve, that is Mandela's generation, Walter

Sisulu, my father, all those people. Their assignment was not to change

the economy of South Africa. It was a very specific task that they gave

themselves. Now the ANC is in different hands, it is no longer in

the Mandela generation. It is in a younger generation, as President

Zuma pointed out, and it has a different assignment. We have a

democratic country, we have a democratic constitution, but we have

hugely different problems, poverty and so on. Because there does seem

to be a feeling among ANC members, not the people like you who actually

work within the ANC, but the people who vote for the ANC, that somehow

apartheid went, as Moeletsi Mbeki says, but what has followed has not

been at inspiring or exciting. Yes, there has been rising expectations,

and in terms of service delivery, there have been huge challenges. The

ideals set out in the constitution make, essentially, very large

promises, and 20 years is clearly not sufficient to deliver on those

ideals. So the ANC now being the ruling partly, it does have a

responsibility to not just grow democracy or consolidates democracy,

but also to grow the economy and to make sure that youth unemployment

goes down, that the educational system is improved. Do you think

people expected faster progress than the ANC has been able to deliver?

Most certainly. Why so difficult, then? Well, I think the ruling

party, and certainly many of us who went into government during

Mandela's time, had underestimated the deep-rooted legacies of

apartheid, and we had also underestimated the scale of the

transition that we would have to affect, and you can rarely do that

in a 20 year period. It would take half a century. Because you were

involved in the kind of creation of the image of the state, when chewed

you might in charge of designing flags, medals, goodness knows what,

so you must have been thinking, we are on our way. Most certainly,

there was a great deal of optimism, but there were dedicated men and

women who slogged and worked really hard at putting in the key pillars

of the new democratic state. And we needed to create a new national

identity, a need for new national symbols. Did you expect the degree

of corruption that people complain about? It seems to have gone on in a

different way, not just failing to deliver but also the allegations

against President Zuma and many members of the ANC in government,

that they have lined their pockets or their families' pockets? Well...

Well, to tell you the honest truth, I didn't. The ANC had been a key

organisation, I was in exile for nearly 30 years with the ANC, I

never had any evidence of corruption in the ANC. So it was a huge shock

to me, anyway, when I started seeing the corruption, and the first

corruption I came across was my company, which was a construction

company, it wanted to rebuild, to modernise a university by providing

proper accommodation for students and a new shopping centre. And it

turned out that the land that belongs to the municipality where we

were going to build the new shopping centre, the mayor was an ANC mayor

anti-had already soldered, illegally, to some business friend.

-- and he had already sold it. Let's go back to the celebrations, the

huge achievements of apartheid coming to an end and the courage

that was shown, but tomorrow, Professor, we go into a slightly

different gear, because Mandela's body is now in Qunu, and people are

fascinated by what happens now and by what the tribal members of the

Thembu tribe will do. Can you explain what it is that happens now

that the body is out of the hands of the state Schumacher... That is what

happens when a member of the family dies away from home, when he is

eventually delivered home, he is received by the elders, who then

speak to the body, receiving it, and telling the body the way forward. Do

they actually speak out loud to the body, who do they whisper? What

happens? They speed light to it. -- they speak loud do it. What will

they be saying? It is not something that is cast in stone, it will

differ from area to area, from family to family, but the sense is

the same. It is that we, your children, your brothers, are now

receiving new home for the burial. -- receiving you home. They will be

speaking in that way. But would they say, for instance, when he went

aboard the plane, would they have been saying... It is difficult to

imagine, are they saying, we are going to your home? They would say

those things? That is exactly right. When they collected the body, they

say the same thing. You are among friends, do not worry, we are taking

you home. Yes. And at the funeral, what happens? They go on talking to

him? Yes, at the funeral, the same thing, before the body is finally

buried, they would talk to the body, now we are taking you to that

final resting place we promised to take you to, this is now the time.

We will see all of that tomorrow, but let's just have a look at the

journey from here in Pretoria to Qunu. It did not take more than an

hour and a half or so for the plane to get there, and there, at Mthatha

airport, Graca Machel and Winnie, and thousands from his homeland in

the Eastern Cape, the place where he came from, were waiting to catch a

final glimpse of their hero as the plane came in.

A very different countryside here. The Greenhills near where Mr Mandela

lived, where he was brought up and that he remembered so fondly. People

were waiting but there was a national ceremonial guard here and

the band. And also a guard of honour to greet the coffin when the plane

finally came to a halt. The pallbearers are senior officers

of the Navy, the air force and the army. The band playing and the guard

of honour dressed in green. The band in red. All the bands across South

Africa are in red so they can join together in one huge ceremonial

band. The guard of honour are carrying Lee Enfield rifles, those

old-fashioned World War II rifles with bayonets fixed, much easier to

do drill with than the modern ones. The Hearst roars up and the bearer

party of warrant officers will go into receive the coffin -- the

hearse draws up. And then the chaplain will in effect, welcomed

the body. The flag of the union of South

Africa now has replaced the ANC flag which we saw earlier when the coffin

was in Pretoria at that ANC rally. We want to thank you this day for

Madiba, that he is safely returned to his home province. We want to

thank you for the amazing person, human being that he was. And we want

to ask you that you will help us all to have the same spirit of

reconciliation, the same attitude of forgiveness and a similar vision for

the new South Africa. We want to ask that you will comfort and strengthen

and sustain or his family members, relatives, friends and all of us,

this day and during this time of sorrow and morning. We make this

prayer in your name, amen. Winnie and Graca Machel, comforting

each other as they have been over these past few days, whenever they

have appeared together in public, and indeed, when Mr Mandela was ill

in his home in Houghton, they were frequently there together as well.

And so with its military guard running after it, the hearse leaves

the runway and sets off on the journey, not a long journey, to

Qunu, Nelson Mandela's homeland, Nelson Mandela's home, I should say,

the place where he built the house when he came out of jail and wanted

to live quietly in retirement. She recently, a strange sight, those

carriers which were used in Soweto during the rights to suppress

trouble and they are now here taking part in the procession of the coffin

followed by the family. Once again, Graca helped into her car by Winnie.

After that rather impressive, formal reception of the coffin, the scene

changes. My goodness, the reaction here was different really from

Pretoria when the procession was going up to the union buildings.

This was a much more exuberant reception. Definitely. These are

villagers say they express themselves I suppose, more

spontaneously. And he is their man, they are proud of him coming back.

He's coming home and they are very proud that they have produced a

leader of that calibre. All the way along the route,

wherever there was a village, there were crowds. It is like a wasteland

to go through, just a few houses and you know it well, Professor, this

route to Qunu? Yes, I know it. These people on the sides here, they are

farm workers, rural people on the whole? Are the industries here, is

their work for people here? Yes, but mostly they are peasants from the

village. A guard of honour here. There is

nobody to hold back. And so he comes to Qunu, yes? That is right. That is

his home. And that is his house? Yes. And tonight, the body is in the

house, is that right? Yes. And with the family? What happens? Normally,

there is a vigil. What does that consist of? Individual consists of

the locals, ordinary people, where they will keep awake, sitting

around, next to the coffin. And sitting in silence or talking to

each other? Praying or just being there. Nowadays it is mostly singing

and praying. And religious presence prayers said or not? Yes, why I am

saying nowadays is it is mostly religious singing, Kristian songs.

What did it used to be? It comes from a culture of the African

religion which was different. It was being kept by the elders. Is there

an element of that still or is that gradually fading away, the role of

the Elders? It is not fading, but now there has been the edition with

the addition of the Christian version. But the elders are still

part of it. Do you feel it is strong that element? The Christian

religion? No, the role of the elders? The slaughter of the

animals. Cultural tradition lasts a very long time. Culture brings

comfort during time of mourning. Even though the younger generation

does not literally always believe in all elements, there is great comfort

from following the rituals. In the case of this elder statesman, they

assume even higher symbolic significance. Does it make

difficulty for government if you have different sources of power, if

you have local power in this region and then you are trying to run the

modern government? There are constitutional relationships between

these different structures, so there is actually a system of how they

interface with one another. And remember, the traditional leadership

is paid by the government. You mean they do what they are told? I do not

know! But they are paid. People who are paid normally do as they are

told but not always. One forgets that Mandela's father defied the

government, defied the authorities when Mandela was only one-year-old.

He defied the magistrate. He lost his land. This was under British

rule, he lost as land, lost his cattle and they had to move from the

town where he was born to Qunu. Anyway, we will go back to that

later on. One of the places the funeral cortege passed through was

Ultra City. And in the crowd was Fergal Keane. All week long, people

have been waiting for this moment, the point when Nelson Mandela's

cortege will arrive back in his own place. It is expected any moment now

to pass through here. There is a real sense of celebration of his

life. We have been talking to people in the crowd throughout the morning.

Many got up after midnight just to get here. They have travelled

hundreds of kilometres. What does it mean to you to be here? Basically

everything. It is part of who we are, part of our heritage, part of

my children's lives, this is our future, being together with all of

these people as part of our future. Showing my children where and how

somebody might pass, and not having to worry about anything or anybody.

Freedom is the most important thing. Without that, what do we have? We

have nothing without freedom. There are many children and young people

here, part of what is called in South Africa, the born free

generation, those who grew up after the end of apartheid, and after the

end of nonracial elections in 1994. It is now about 30 minutes until the

cortege is expected to pass here. The atmosphere is very relaxed, you

can see that the police have been gently asking people to move back, a

lot of the time without much success!

Now we can see the police outriders and the cortege arriving here. There

is a great surge from the crowd. People are chanting, go well, spirit

of the nation. You have just seen Nelson Mandela

passed to his final journey, what is your feeling at this moment? I am

happy and sad at the same time. It is an exciting moment for me,

because it is the first time I have seen them, but it is the last time I

will see him at the same time, which really hurts me, because he has done

a lot for our country, he has made it possible for a number of

different races to sit in the same classes and given us a better

opportunity in life. Thank you very, very much.

Nelson Mandela always said he wanted to be buried in Qunu, I talked to

him some years ago about what it was that made this place so very

important to him. A narrow grassy valley crisscrossed

by clear streams and overlooked by green hills. Nelson Mandela's

description of Qunu, the small village in the Eastern Cape where he

spent his happiest childhood days. Even as he played there, though,

hence could be seen of the man he would become. As a boy, you know, in

the countryside, I was one of the most experts stick fighters, but I

fought boys, never people who would resist me. I cannot fight somebody

who does not resist me. I want to fight somebody who can fight me

back. During his time there, he learnt about his heritage. My father

was a traditional leader, and both he and my mother had never been to

school. And therefore they taught me about the traditions, the customs of

our people. The way they taught me about the old stories of bravery

amongst our people, you know, I wished I had lived during those

days. And they really inspired me. Mandela's father died when he was

nine, and he moved away from Qunu and became the ward of the chief of

the Thembu clan. Returning 60 years later on his release from prison,

Mandela was keen to see Qunu again. My whole world was around this

place, but as I grew up, it extended. My roots have not left

home, but my gaze is beyond the horizon. He built a home in Qunu and

settled once more in the place where his journey had begun.

What does this place, Qunu, mean to you? Oh, it means a lot in the sense

that I was brought here when I was a baby, and this is where I grew up.

So these hills are your home? Oh, yes. It evokes very pleasant

memories, my being here. What memories? Of childhood, the stones

were used to play, see those dreams? There are stones there where I used

to play as a child. The rivers where I fished, they broke very happy

memories. Whenever I die, I will be buried here. This is where I am

going to be buried. Very adamant that he was going to be

buried in Qunu. There was a great dispute, some members of his family,

their bodies were moved away, but now they are back in Qunu, within

the area of his house. The stones he slid down, he said he slid down so

often that he got a sore bottom and could not do it any more! It has

been a very big challenge for Qunu to do this, 4500 people coming

tomorrow to one of the largest funerals South Africa has ever seen.

George Alagiah is there and knows what they are doing. George.

You can just imagine the frantic last-minute arrangements going on in

the Mandela family compound behind me. Although they have had months,

perhaps even years to plan this event, nothing could actually be

built or visit until the last few days. Now, all along, the funeral

has been billed as the most private event in this week of national

mourning that we have seen, but it is not the kind of privacy that you

or I would recognise. There are up to 5000 guests, and that has been

the challenge all along for the organisers. Nelson Mandela belonged

to the whole world, so tonight his body will be kept in the family

home. Now, I am no expert, but under the tradition of the Xhosa speaking

people, it will be the jobs of the elders to reunite Mr Mandela's

spirit with his mortal remains, and this is done by apparently talking

to the person, reminding them of significant places and people. We

think there will be two distinct parts to the funeral service

tomorrow, the first part will be the state funeral for a former

president. The second part will be a traditional ceremony, presided over

by the local king. Mr Mandela belonged to a minor branch of that

Royal Family, so we will see BIP is arriving, then the family will take

the coffin from the house, up the gravel path to the marquee a little

way up that hill. -- VIPs. Inside there will be an orchestra, a choir,

and then a much smaller group will attend the actual burial itself. As

I have reported on the events of the week a theme has emerged, and Trent

to bring together the different strands of his life. You see, he

meant different things to different people, and for his beloved ANC was

an unrivalled political figure, for the world he was a symbol of moral

authority, and of course for the people here he is simply a returning

son. George touches on an interesting

point there, which is the different ways in which Nelson Mandela is

perceived. I have to say, if you can hear the noise on the roof, we are

in the middle of a summer storm with lightning flashing around us, but I

think we are in the middle of a summer storm with lightning flashing

around us, but I think we as a sign of somebody who, quite genuinely,

was in one way was a very simple person who held onto his roots. That

is. Mandela was essentially quite a modest man. -- that is correct.

Despite the international recognition and accolades, he was

very grounded. I recall stories of when he had first become president,

and he would travel on international state visits, and he would ask his

Director-General to help him but the mattress on the floor so that they

could sleep comfortably, but to come very early to put the mattress back

on the bed in order not to offend his hosts. So, in many respects, he

remained humble, yet he was quite aware of his leadership capability

and power, and his ability to move things and to move people. And he

used people. Andy Hughes did effectively. How would those

qualities... And he used it effectively. How would those

qualities have been sustained during his time in jail? That gives a lot

of time for reflection... Far too much time! But what one does not

often see is the dark moments that he had and the self-doubt as to

whether he did the right thing. His convictions never wavered, but

certainly, when Winnie Mandela had been tortured and in solitary

confinement, and the children were left alone, that really, really put

him through his darkest moments. And of course, when his son died, and

the head of the prisons would not give him permission to bury his own

son, he went through quite a dark moments of depression, and Walter

Sisulu had to kind of help him through that. Of course, your father

was also in Robben Island. Did he have a similar experience to Nelson

Mandela in terms of coming in as one kind of person and emerging, in a

sense, as a different sort of person, more assured and confident

about where the ANC was going? Well, first, in my father's family, no-one

died, as happened in the case of Mandela. I think his mother also

died when he was in prison. Yes. So we did not have that experience. Did

you get to see him? I was in exile, so I couldn't go and see him. But

they were so determined, that was one of the most striking things

about it. When I eventually met my father after 30 or so years, it was

like we had never left, because we had all been working on the same

thing, which is how to get rid of this evil apart aid regime. --

apartheid regime. So the dialogue restarted where it had ended in the

1950s. No hesitation among the people who had been 20 or 25 years

in Robben Island? Nobody backsliding? None whatsoever. They

were very determined, they were very clear what the objective was, they

were very clear what needed to be done in order to achieve the

objective, and my father never talked about prison, for example.

You might make a joke about some experience, but he never talked

about prison. At what point do you think they decided that they would

win, or maybe they realised they would win? Well, that is a very

difficult question to answer! It is meant to be! Because, actually, when

the negotiations started, the South African government was at its

strongest point, because it had been at war in Angola and in the movie,

and so the negotiations actually started when the South African army

was back in South Africa. -- in the media. There were piece agreements

with the Angolans and the Cubans, so it was at its strongest. I do not

think they thought that this was a winning moment. You do not think

they thought, one day our strategy will work? There was a believe that

freedom would come, but it was a hard slog, the negotiations were

hard work, and both sides had to give quite a lot. And the decision

about when to start talking? Yes, well, that was made in prison, and

as you know, Madiba's cohort, they were not all agreed that they should

negotiate, in fact, that the struggle should continue, but he

managed to persuade them. Professor, we have coming to the end of this,

but the elders at this moment are sitting around the coffin in Qunu,

is that right? Yes. And talking to the body? They would have talked to

it when it arrived. And they will spend the night just in vigil Jim

Mack we will hear more about it tomorrow. You are with us tomorrow,

I think, thank you very much for coming in. It is very nice to have

you here. That ends this look back at today's events, Nelson Mandela's

last journey is nearly over. Tonight the coffin stays at his home in

Qunu, and tomorrow we will be back at 5:30am on BBC One for the state

funeral and the burial of the former president in the grounds of his home

in Qunu. I hope you will be able to join us then. Until then, good

night.