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RADIO: 'Good morning. This is BBC Radio Wales. | 0:00:02 | 0:00:04 | |
'Today, some businesses in Crickhowell are trying to use | 0:00:04 | 0:00:06 | |
'the same loopholes as big, multinational companies.' | 0:00:06 | 0:00:10 | |
Welcome to Crickhowell. | 0:00:11 | 0:00:12 | |
A picturesque little town nestled in the Welsh Brecon Beacons. | 0:00:12 | 0:00:16 | |
It's an unlikely home for the start of a national revolt. | 0:00:18 | 0:00:21 | |
RADIO: 'Businesses in a Welsh town are trying to use...' | 0:00:23 | 0:00:25 | |
The local traders are up in arms. | 0:00:25 | 0:00:27 | |
It really gets up your nose that other people who should be paying | 0:00:27 | 0:00:32 | |
a vast amount of corporation tax don't pay anything. | 0:00:32 | 0:00:35 | |
It's just about fair play. | 0:00:35 | 0:00:38 | |
They are sick of seeing the taxman let so many of their multinational | 0:00:38 | 0:00:41 | |
rivals get away with tiny tax bills | 0:00:41 | 0:00:44 | |
whilst forcing them to pay the full whack. | 0:00:44 | 0:00:47 | |
I don't have an issue with taxation, | 0:00:47 | 0:00:49 | |
I have an issue with the fact it can be avoided | 0:00:49 | 0:00:51 | |
if you've got a bigger lawyer and a bigger accountant than I have. | 0:00:51 | 0:00:55 | |
So, they've decided to tackle the taxman head on. | 0:00:56 | 0:01:00 | |
They're on a mission to investigate the tax tricks | 0:01:01 | 0:01:03 | |
of their multinational competitors... | 0:01:03 | 0:01:06 | |
I'm getting frustrated now. I want to go and find out. | 0:01:06 | 0:01:09 | |
..and see if they, too, can legally avoid tax. | 0:01:09 | 0:01:12 | |
So, it's a scam? | 0:01:12 | 0:01:14 | |
No, it's a trick and it's completely legal. | 0:01:14 | 0:01:16 | |
How amazing was that?! | 0:01:16 | 0:01:18 | |
Outrageous! | 0:01:18 | 0:01:20 | |
The journey will take them to tax havens... | 0:01:20 | 0:01:22 | |
It used to be known as the street that's shady on both sides | 0:01:22 | 0:01:25 | |
and I don't think it's cos the sun didn't get here. | 0:01:25 | 0:01:28 | |
..tax lawyers... | 0:01:28 | 0:01:29 | |
I mean, taxes, in my opinion, they are a choice. | 0:01:29 | 0:01:32 | |
And even the taxman himself. | 0:01:32 | 0:01:34 | |
You may find a business model coming your way | 0:01:34 | 0:01:36 | |
where you and I get much, much closer. | 0:01:36 | 0:01:38 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:01:38 | 0:01:40 | |
But will it split the town? | 0:01:40 | 0:01:41 | |
If you're not with me, you're against me. | 0:01:41 | 0:01:43 | |
-I didn't say that. -It's exactly... -I didn't say that. | 0:01:43 | 0:01:46 | |
I said don't just get in my way. | 0:01:46 | 0:01:48 | |
Can these small businesses pull off something this big? | 0:01:48 | 0:01:52 | |
It is a licence to print cash. | 0:01:52 | 0:01:54 | |
Take a bite of that and see how nice that is | 0:01:54 | 0:01:56 | |
because you know you've paid fair tax. | 0:01:56 | 0:01:59 | |
And will this be the spark | 0:01:59 | 0:02:00 | |
that forces the multinationals to pay more tax? | 0:02:00 | 0:02:03 | |
And, before you know it, you've suddenly got a movement. | 0:02:03 | 0:02:07 | |
I'm Heydon Prowse. I'm a journalist and a comedian. | 0:02:17 | 0:02:21 | |
Recently, I've been looking at how multinationals | 0:02:21 | 0:02:24 | |
avoid paying their fair share of tax | 0:02:24 | 0:02:26 | |
and I want to try out what I think is quite a funny idea. | 0:02:26 | 0:02:31 | |
What if a town full of small businesses tries to play | 0:02:31 | 0:02:34 | |
by the same rules as the big boys? | 0:02:34 | 0:02:36 | |
Could it ever work? | 0:02:36 | 0:02:37 | |
Could we take a small town offshore for tax purposes legally | 0:02:37 | 0:02:42 | |
or is it one rule for the small guys | 0:02:42 | 0:02:44 | |
and another for the big multinational corporations? | 0:02:44 | 0:02:47 | |
I'm off to a place that might just be up for having a go. | 0:02:49 | 0:02:53 | |
-CHANTING: -"Crickhowell says no! Crickhowell says no!" | 0:02:53 | 0:02:56 | |
Crickhowell is a small town, but it's got a rebellious spirit. | 0:02:56 | 0:02:59 | |
Last year, locals successfully fought | 0:02:59 | 0:03:02 | |
to keep a supermarket chain off their high street. | 0:03:02 | 0:03:05 | |
Ah, look! Grenfell & Sons. | 0:03:11 | 0:03:14 | |
Not just Grenfell & Sons, | 0:03:14 | 0:03:16 | |
but Grenfell & Sons, and Granddaughter & Grandson's. | 0:03:16 | 0:03:19 | |
Ironmongers, Webbs & Sons, another family-run business. | 0:03:19 | 0:03:22 | |
Every single place seems to be different, original, unique. | 0:03:22 | 0:03:25 | |
No Starbucks. I haven't seen one Cafe Nero | 0:03:25 | 0:03:28 | |
and I haven't seen one Costa. | 0:03:28 | 0:03:30 | |
You don't have any chains. You've got no chains, no... | 0:03:30 | 0:03:33 | |
-Well, we've got Boots. -You've got Boots. -Yeah, yeah. | 0:03:33 | 0:03:36 | |
-And they're terrible. -Are they? | 0:03:36 | 0:03:38 | |
-Yes, they wouldn't even put Christmas lights up. -That's... | 0:03:38 | 0:03:41 | |
All the town, Christmas lights up and they wouldn't do it. | 0:03:41 | 0:03:45 | |
This high street is a dying breed, isn't it? | 0:03:46 | 0:03:48 | |
It is a dying breed, yes. | 0:03:48 | 0:03:50 | |
-How many high streets are there in the UK? -Not many like this. | 0:03:50 | 0:03:53 | |
It's what makes Crickhowell special. | 0:03:54 | 0:03:57 | |
Big businesses coming onto this high street would obliterate that | 0:03:57 | 0:04:00 | |
and it would be really sad and I'm a little bit scared that might happen. | 0:04:00 | 0:04:04 | |
But in this fight to compete with the big multinationals, | 0:04:06 | 0:04:09 | |
small businesses feel they have one major disadvantage. | 0:04:09 | 0:04:13 | |
They are treated very differently by her Majesty's Revenue and Customs. | 0:04:13 | 0:04:16 | |
If anybody tells you running a business is in this day and age | 0:04:16 | 0:04:20 | |
is easy, they are lying. | 0:04:20 | 0:04:21 | |
We don't find it any easier to pay the taxes than the big boys. | 0:04:21 | 0:04:26 | |
Obviously, if we don't, they will come after us big time. | 0:04:26 | 0:04:30 | |
We are a small business. When the corporation bill comes in, we panic. | 0:04:30 | 0:04:34 | |
-Yeah. -Um... You know, and we have to pay by 31st December | 0:04:34 | 0:04:38 | |
-or we get fined. -Yeah. | 0:04:38 | 0:04:39 | |
And then you hear these companies who are actually going out there | 0:04:39 | 0:04:42 | |
and getting away with... | 0:04:42 | 0:04:44 | |
I don't know what they're paying in taxes and it really does upset us. | 0:04:44 | 0:04:48 | |
The taxman gives them no option. | 0:04:49 | 0:04:50 | |
They have to pay every single penny they owe, or else. | 0:04:50 | 0:04:54 | |
But it would appear that HMRC isn't quite so strict | 0:04:54 | 0:04:58 | |
with some of the country's biggest companies. | 0:04:58 | 0:05:01 | |
Amazon paid just £11.9 million in corporation tax last year | 0:05:01 | 0:05:06 | |
on £5.3 billion of UK sales. | 0:05:06 | 0:05:10 | |
That's 0.002%, | 0:05:10 | 0:05:13 | |
which is bad news for the local bookshop. | 0:05:13 | 0:05:16 | |
Cafe Nero hasn't paid a penny since 2007. | 0:05:18 | 0:05:22 | |
Shame for a local Crickhowell coffee shop | 0:05:22 | 0:05:25 | |
which paid £130,000 in corporation tax over the past five years. | 0:05:25 | 0:05:30 | |
Last year, Facebook paid around five grand, | 0:05:30 | 0:05:32 | |
less than almost every business in town. | 0:05:32 | 0:05:35 | |
Are you guys coming to the meeting later? | 0:05:35 | 0:05:38 | |
-We would love to support it actually. -Great! Come down. | 0:05:38 | 0:05:41 | |
So, will Crickhowell stand up to HMRC | 0:05:41 | 0:05:44 | |
and beat the multinationals at their own game? | 0:05:44 | 0:05:48 | |
I've called a meeting in the local town hall to pitch the big idea. | 0:05:48 | 0:05:51 | |
We just handed out a few flyers | 0:05:57 | 0:05:59 | |
and we spoke to a few people in the businesses today | 0:05:59 | 0:06:01 | |
on the high street and it seems there are about 200 or 300 people | 0:06:01 | 0:06:05 | |
which is great. | 0:06:05 | 0:06:06 | |
I think I may regret this stupid idea | 0:06:06 | 0:06:08 | |
when I work out how I'm actually going to pull it off. | 0:06:08 | 0:06:11 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:06:11 | 0:06:13 | |
Hello. Hi. | 0:06:13 | 0:06:15 | |
It's a real pleasure to be here. | 0:06:15 | 0:06:17 | |
We've been walking up and down the Crickhowell high street all day | 0:06:17 | 0:06:20 | |
and it's been amazing. | 0:06:20 | 0:06:22 | |
Some incredible local businesses you have here. | 0:06:22 | 0:06:26 | |
You've got businesses with three generations of people working in them | 0:06:26 | 0:06:30 | |
and, more importantly, you have two different representatives | 0:06:30 | 0:06:32 | |
from two different coffee shops here | 0:06:32 | 0:06:34 | |
and not a single representative from Starbucks. | 0:06:34 | 0:06:36 | |
LAUGHTER AND CHEERING | 0:06:36 | 0:06:40 | |
It's not only that these big corporations are siphoning off | 0:06:40 | 0:06:42 | |
money into tax havens, | 0:06:42 | 0:06:44 | |
it's that the savings they are making are allowing them to undercut | 0:06:44 | 0:06:47 | |
local businesses like yours who do actually have to pay tax. | 0:06:47 | 0:06:51 | |
Can we do a hands up? Who actually pays tax? | 0:06:51 | 0:06:54 | |
I pay tax. | 0:06:54 | 0:06:56 | |
Yes, we all pay tax. | 0:06:56 | 0:06:58 | |
Keep your hands up if you really enjoy the experience. | 0:06:58 | 0:07:02 | |
As a whole, small businesses, like ourselves, | 0:07:04 | 0:07:06 | |
like lots of people here, are the biggest employers in the country | 0:07:06 | 0:07:10 | |
and we don't get the recognition we deserve. | 0:07:10 | 0:07:13 | |
And if we all stopped paying taxes, the country would be bankrupt. | 0:07:13 | 0:07:16 | |
Not just financially bankrupt, but, as it is now with the banks | 0:07:16 | 0:07:19 | |
and large corporations, morally bankrupt. | 0:07:19 | 0:07:22 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:07:22 | 0:07:26 | |
So, what I would like to do with the local businesses of Crickhowell | 0:07:26 | 0:07:30 | |
is I'd like to work out a way to take you all offshore | 0:07:30 | 0:07:33 | |
to legally avoid tax | 0:07:33 | 0:07:35 | |
in the same way that the multinational corporations do. | 0:07:35 | 0:07:40 | |
I know I don't have the expertise personally and I know | 0:07:40 | 0:07:43 | |
we don't have the money to pay for very expensive tax lawyers, | 0:07:43 | 0:07:46 | |
but I vehemently believe, and I'm incredibly, | 0:07:46 | 0:07:49 | |
perhaps foolhardedly optimistic, that we can do this. | 0:07:49 | 0:07:52 | |
So, who's with me? | 0:07:52 | 0:07:54 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:07:56 | 0:07:58 | |
I appear to have convinced some people that this is a good idea, | 0:07:58 | 0:08:03 | |
but is it even possible? | 0:08:03 | 0:08:05 | |
I need to find a core team to investigate. | 0:08:05 | 0:08:08 | |
We're feeling pretty indignant about the amount of tax | 0:08:08 | 0:08:11 | |
that we've suddenly found ourselves paying this year. | 0:08:11 | 0:08:15 | |
Yeah, I would be interested. | 0:08:15 | 0:08:16 | |
-One of us would be interested. That would be great. -OK. All right. | 0:08:16 | 0:08:19 | |
I think there is something in it. | 0:08:19 | 0:08:21 | |
You get a little group of people, they develop the idea, bring it back | 0:08:21 | 0:08:24 | |
and say, OK, this is what we've come up with. | 0:08:24 | 0:08:26 | |
-Then tell the rest of the town how to do it. -Yeah. | 0:08:26 | 0:08:28 | |
If the big companies are allowed to get away with paying what | 0:08:28 | 0:08:33 | |
they think is a fair share of tax, | 0:08:33 | 0:08:37 | |
the same rules should apply to me. | 0:08:37 | 0:08:40 | |
-Are you up for it? -Yes. -Sure? -No, I'm up for it. | 0:08:40 | 0:08:42 | |
I think it will be a good crack, yes. | 0:08:42 | 0:08:44 | |
I'm not convinced it's going to work, | 0:08:44 | 0:08:47 | |
but what I am convinced of is that it will get people's attention. | 0:08:47 | 0:08:51 | |
So, here's Crickhowell's crack tax squad. | 0:08:54 | 0:08:57 | |
Jo runs the local meat and fish smokery | 0:08:57 | 0:09:00 | |
with her ex-banker husband, Jonathan. | 0:09:00 | 0:09:03 | |
They moved to Crickhowell for the good life. | 0:09:03 | 0:09:06 | |
For Jo, tax avoidance just isn't cricket. | 0:09:06 | 0:09:08 | |
We didn't start our business to be really rich. | 0:09:08 | 0:09:11 | |
We've had a lovely time bringing our children up | 0:09:11 | 0:09:13 | |
on the side of a mountain. That was our choice. | 0:09:13 | 0:09:17 | |
So, it's not that one feels sort of chippy about income. | 0:09:17 | 0:09:20 | |
It's much more about fair play. | 0:09:20 | 0:09:23 | |
I'm not a financial person at all | 0:09:25 | 0:09:28 | |
and I'm going to go on a very steep learning curve. | 0:09:28 | 0:09:31 | |
Local coffee shop owner Steve is ex-army and still likes a fight. | 0:09:31 | 0:09:35 | |
He's frothing about some of his big coffee rivals. | 0:09:37 | 0:09:40 | |
When you hear these stories of Amazon and Starbucks, | 0:09:40 | 0:09:44 | |
and all the rest of it, being almost tax neutral, it's irritating. | 0:09:44 | 0:09:49 | |
It'll be great to see whether there are any chinks in the armour | 0:09:49 | 0:09:53 | |
that suddenly open up. I think I'll be an asset on this | 0:09:53 | 0:09:56 | |
because I'm not going to toe the line. | 0:09:56 | 0:09:58 | |
I mean, I have views and I will express them. They may not be yours. | 0:09:58 | 0:10:01 | |
Jeff used to be a foreman in the local steelworks. | 0:10:03 | 0:10:05 | |
Now he runs the outdoor equipment shop with his partner, Jane. | 0:10:05 | 0:10:09 | |
Well, I'm going to find out exactly how and why and who | 0:10:09 | 0:10:14 | |
is responsible for this great scam on the British taxpayer | 0:10:14 | 0:10:19 | |
and citizen really. | 0:10:19 | 0:10:21 | |
Irena moved here from Russia 15 years ago | 0:10:22 | 0:10:24 | |
and now runs two successful Crickhowell businesses. | 0:10:24 | 0:10:28 | |
They call her the local oligarch. | 0:10:28 | 0:10:30 | |
I think I might be the only optometrist | 0:10:30 | 0:10:33 | |
and ice-cream parlour owner in the world. | 0:10:33 | 0:10:36 | |
I will try to be as direct as I can. | 0:10:36 | 0:10:41 | |
Russians want more direct answers. We want either a yes or a no. | 0:10:41 | 0:10:46 | |
Every time you see an accountant or a lawyer, | 0:10:46 | 0:10:49 | |
you get out of the room and you think, | 0:10:49 | 0:10:51 | |
I still haven't got the answer. Was it a yes or no? | 0:10:51 | 0:10:55 | |
Irena seems to be up for saving some cash, as long as it's legit. | 0:10:55 | 0:10:59 | |
If you find a legal way of paying less tax, yeah, it would be great. | 0:10:59 | 0:11:06 | |
So, they are ready and like all the best adventures, | 0:11:10 | 0:11:13 | |
this one begins in the pub. | 0:11:13 | 0:11:15 | |
-Hi. -Hello, everyone. | 0:11:15 | 0:11:17 | |
-Hello. -This is David Quinton. | 0:11:17 | 0:11:19 | |
Barrister David Quinton used to advise big corporations | 0:11:19 | 0:11:22 | |
on how to avoid their tax. | 0:11:22 | 0:11:23 | |
Can he help little Crickhowell do the same? | 0:11:23 | 0:11:26 | |
I've actually brought something which I can use | 0:11:26 | 0:11:29 | |
to demonstrate what an uphill struggle it is. | 0:11:29 | 0:11:32 | |
This is UK tax legislation. | 0:11:32 | 0:11:35 | |
Ooh! | 0:11:35 | 0:11:36 | |
No, no, that's just the start! | 0:11:36 | 0:11:39 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:11:39 | 0:11:40 | |
Bedside reading! | 0:11:40 | 0:11:42 | |
17,000 pages of tax law. | 0:11:42 | 0:11:44 | |
This could be tricky, but will it put them off? | 0:11:44 | 0:11:49 | |
-I'm not daunted by this. -Brilliant! -I'll tell you why. | 0:11:49 | 0:11:51 | |
-In that case... -I'll tell you why... | 0:11:51 | 0:11:53 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:11:53 | 0:11:54 | |
Let me tell you why I'm not daunted by it. | 0:11:54 | 0:11:57 | |
-Because, at the end of the day, legislation is legislation. -Yeah. | 0:11:57 | 0:12:00 | |
But precedents are set every single day in the courts | 0:12:00 | 0:12:03 | |
against legislation just as thick as this | 0:12:03 | 0:12:05 | |
that somebody finds a loophole in. | 0:12:05 | 0:12:07 | |
All you've got to do is find the loophole. | 0:12:07 | 0:12:10 | |
You wouldn't have a business if there weren't loopholes in this. | 0:12:10 | 0:12:13 | |
There wouldn't be tax barristers if there weren't loopholes in this. | 0:12:13 | 0:12:16 | |
Yes or no? | 0:12:16 | 0:12:17 | |
Well, er... | 0:12:17 | 0:12:19 | |
A lot of us would get paid a lot less if there weren't loopholes. | 0:12:19 | 0:12:25 | |
Exactly. So, that's a positive. | 0:12:25 | 0:12:27 | |
The little guy, as it were, has a massive uphill struggle. | 0:12:27 | 0:12:30 | |
Whereas if you're a wealthy, multinational company | 0:12:30 | 0:12:35 | |
there will be staff at HMRC dedicated to making your life | 0:12:35 | 0:12:40 | |
as a taxpayer as easy as possible | 0:12:40 | 0:12:42 | |
and, partly to do with the sheer power of their wealth, | 0:12:42 | 0:12:45 | |
the government and the revenue have to negotiate with them. | 0:12:45 | 0:12:49 | |
They don't have to negotiate with you. They can stamp on you. | 0:12:49 | 0:12:53 | |
Irena seems to have a knack for spotting a short cut. | 0:12:53 | 0:12:57 | |
Instead of us inventing something, | 0:12:57 | 0:12:59 | |
can we just look at successful schemes which already exist? | 0:12:59 | 0:13:03 | |
-What do Vodafone do? What do Starbucks do? -Exactly. | 0:13:03 | 0:13:05 | |
That's a really good idea. | 0:13:05 | 0:13:07 | |
Where the tax havens come in is you think, well, OK, | 0:13:07 | 0:13:10 | |
if such and such a thing happened in the UK, | 0:13:10 | 0:13:13 | |
that would give me a tax charge. | 0:13:13 | 0:13:14 | |
So, perhaps I can make that part of it happen in a tax haven | 0:13:14 | 0:13:18 | |
without any of the rules in here | 0:13:18 | 0:13:21 | |
that - bring it back on shore - applying. | 0:13:21 | 0:13:24 | |
So, the key, as we suspected, | 0:13:26 | 0:13:27 | |
is to move the profits made in Crickhowell to a tax haven. | 0:13:27 | 0:13:32 | |
But which one? | 0:13:32 | 0:13:33 | |
-BOTH: -Welcome to the Cayman Islands. | 0:13:34 | 0:13:36 | |
Tax havens are countries that attract cash by offering tiny, | 0:13:38 | 0:13:41 | |
or even zero rates, of corporation tax. | 0:13:41 | 0:13:44 | |
Their slick promos look pretty enticing. | 0:13:44 | 0:13:48 | |
I quite fancy the Bahamas. | 0:13:53 | 0:13:54 | |
They are stuffed with money. | 0:13:54 | 0:13:56 | |
An estimated £14 trillion is stashed in tax havens worldwide. | 0:13:56 | 0:14:02 | |
But we may have to look for somewhere a little less exotic. | 0:14:03 | 0:14:07 | |
-PROMO: -'What is it that makes a secret worth keeping?' | 0:14:07 | 0:14:10 | |
Let's eliminate the faraway ones to start with | 0:14:10 | 0:14:13 | |
and just stick with the European ones. | 0:14:13 | 0:14:16 | |
It would appear the Isle of Man has some low-cost options | 0:14:16 | 0:14:19 | |
so when you're looking at everything else and the costs incurred... | 0:14:19 | 0:14:23 | |
It provides a very good quality of life providing you don't mind the weather. | 0:14:23 | 0:14:27 | |
That's exactly what it says. That's exactly what it says! | 0:14:27 | 0:14:30 | |
# Jive talkin' | 0:14:30 | 0:14:32 | |
# You're telling me lies | 0:14:32 | 0:14:34 | |
# Jive talkin'... # | 0:14:34 | 0:14:36 | |
And, we're off! | 0:14:37 | 0:14:39 | |
# Jive talkin' | 0:14:39 | 0:14:41 | |
# So misunderstood, yeah | 0:14:41 | 0:14:44 | |
# Jive talkin'... # | 0:14:44 | 0:14:45 | |
The glamorous Isle of Man. | 0:14:45 | 0:14:47 | |
It's a speck of land between Ireland and Wales | 0:14:47 | 0:14:49 | |
with just under 90,000 people on it. | 0:14:49 | 0:14:52 | |
It's given the world TT motorcycle racing, | 0:14:52 | 0:14:55 | |
the Bee Gees | 0:14:55 | 0:14:56 | |
and a massive tax planning industry. | 0:14:56 | 0:14:59 | |
The Isle of Man has an extraordinary 30,000 registered companies - | 0:15:00 | 0:15:05 | |
one for every three people. | 0:15:05 | 0:15:07 | |
But how exactly do multinationals use tax havens like this? | 0:15:08 | 0:15:12 | |
To find out, we have arranged to meet Cat Turner, | 0:15:12 | 0:15:15 | |
who used to work in the island's tax advice industry. | 0:15:15 | 0:15:18 | |
-Where are we constitutionally now, in the Isle of Man? -OK. | 0:15:20 | 0:15:23 | |
We're not part of the United Kingdom, | 0:15:23 | 0:15:25 | |
we are not part of Great Britain, but we are one of the British Isles. | 0:15:25 | 0:15:29 | |
I see some red postboxes, so where does the Queen sit in all of this? | 0:15:29 | 0:15:31 | |
Ah. The Queen is our head of state, but she is not our Queen. | 0:15:31 | 0:15:35 | |
It means that when we make our own laws, | 0:15:35 | 0:15:37 | |
there are a few things that we can do ourselves. | 0:15:37 | 0:15:39 | |
What is the tax rate? | 0:15:39 | 0:15:41 | |
So, for corporates, there is zero tax. | 0:15:41 | 0:15:45 | |
Zero corporation tax in the Isle of Man. | 0:15:47 | 0:15:50 | |
Back in the UK, our Crickhowell companies pay 20%. | 0:15:50 | 0:15:54 | |
So, first stop, Douglas - the island's capital - | 0:15:57 | 0:16:01 | |
to visit the financial district. | 0:16:01 | 0:16:03 | |
So, this is Athol Street. | 0:16:07 | 0:16:09 | |
This is the street an awful lot of lawyers and accountants hang out. | 0:16:09 | 0:16:13 | |
It used to be known as "the street that's shady on both sides", | 0:16:13 | 0:16:16 | |
and I don't think it's cos the sun didn't get here - | 0:16:16 | 0:16:18 | |
I think it is because it's where a lot of that sort of planning went on. | 0:16:18 | 0:16:21 | |
But it's still pretty much the hub | 0:16:21 | 0:16:23 | |
of financial planning on the Isle of Man. | 0:16:23 | 0:16:26 | |
Just to ask a question, because you were a gamekeeper, | 0:16:26 | 0:16:29 | |
-you are now a poacher. -Something like that! | 0:16:29 | 0:16:31 | |
I worked for 30 years in the finance industry and... | 0:16:31 | 0:16:35 | |
To my shame, I guess, that was my job, | 0:16:35 | 0:16:38 | |
to help people create products that would minimise tax. | 0:16:38 | 0:16:41 | |
So, classic tax avoidance. | 0:16:41 | 0:16:43 | |
Planning, savings, whatever you want to call it. | 0:16:43 | 0:16:46 | |
Spent a long time helping rich people get richer. | 0:16:46 | 0:16:49 | |
Now, Cat is helping us. | 0:16:49 | 0:16:51 | |
She says the first thing these guys need | 0:16:51 | 0:16:53 | |
is something called a corporate service provider | 0:16:53 | 0:16:56 | |
to set up their own offshore company. | 0:16:56 | 0:16:58 | |
So that's a corporate service provider. | 0:16:59 | 0:17:01 | |
That's a corporate service provider. | 0:17:01 | 0:17:03 | |
There are lots of them. What they do | 0:17:03 | 0:17:05 | |
is talk to people like you, who need some planning and some structuring, | 0:17:05 | 0:17:09 | |
set up a company, provide you with directors | 0:17:09 | 0:17:12 | |
if you don't want to be directors yourselves... | 0:17:12 | 0:17:14 | |
And there is a corporate service provider right here | 0:17:14 | 0:17:17 | |
that is home to an investment company that owns the majority of shares | 0:17:17 | 0:17:21 | |
in one of Steve's big coffee rivals - Caffe Nero. | 0:17:21 | 0:17:25 | |
We're outside the offices of Dixcart, | 0:17:26 | 0:17:29 | |
who are corporate service providers and, among other things, | 0:17:29 | 0:17:32 | |
they provide the registered office for Saratoga Limited, | 0:17:32 | 0:17:35 | |
which is the ultimate parent for the Caffe Nero group. | 0:17:35 | 0:17:39 | |
Is Caffe Nero listed as a UK company? | 0:17:39 | 0:17:42 | |
Some of the operating entities for Caffe Nero | 0:17:42 | 0:17:44 | |
are UK operating entities, but the holding company, | 0:17:44 | 0:17:47 | |
which owns shares in those underlying companies... | 0:17:47 | 0:17:50 | |
-Is offshore. -..is right here. | 0:17:50 | 0:17:51 | |
Can we get inside there? | 0:17:51 | 0:17:52 | |
Cos I want to find out how we do this. | 0:17:52 | 0:17:55 | |
-I'm getting frustrated, now. -Let's go. -I want to go and find out. | 0:17:55 | 0:17:58 | |
I'll order everyone some coffee. What does everyone want? | 0:17:58 | 0:18:00 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:18:00 | 0:18:02 | |
-Oh, hi. -All right? -How's it going? | 0:18:02 | 0:18:04 | |
We were wanting some coffees, | 0:18:04 | 0:18:05 | |
some flat whites and some cappuccinos, | 0:18:05 | 0:18:07 | |
maybe a few skinny lattes. | 0:18:07 | 0:18:09 | |
Is there anyone from Caffe Nero here at all? | 0:18:09 | 0:18:12 | |
INDISTINCT | 0:18:12 | 0:18:13 | |
No-one from Caffe Nero? | 0:18:13 | 0:18:15 | |
I heard we can get some coffee here and take it back, tax-free. | 0:18:15 | 0:18:18 | |
Steve, do you want to give us some advice on how to do a better coffee? | 0:18:18 | 0:18:21 | |
Just make sure you don't roast the coffee too high, OK? | 0:18:21 | 0:18:24 | |
Because you kill the top note. | 0:18:24 | 0:18:26 | |
Thanks a lot. Cheers. | 0:18:26 | 0:18:28 | |
Caffe Nero say that they don't use tax havens like the Isle of Man | 0:18:29 | 0:18:33 | |
to reduce their UK corporation tax, | 0:18:33 | 0:18:36 | |
but what is clear is that a company here | 0:18:36 | 0:18:38 | |
can be little more than a doorbell and a mailbox. | 0:18:38 | 0:18:42 | |
That is exactly what Crickhowell needs. | 0:18:42 | 0:18:45 | |
But is it possible? | 0:18:45 | 0:18:47 | |
'Time to make a few calls.' | 0:18:47 | 0:18:50 | |
We'd like to set up an offshore holding company | 0:18:50 | 0:18:52 | |
in order so that we can, essentially, | 0:18:52 | 0:18:55 | |
channel some of our earnings to the Isle of Man. | 0:18:55 | 0:18:59 | |
We are located in South Wales. | 0:18:59 | 0:19:01 | |
There are loads of corporate service providers on the island, | 0:19:01 | 0:19:04 | |
but you have got to know what to ask. | 0:19:04 | 0:19:07 | |
-I love the phone cover. -(Try to sound rich!) | 0:19:07 | 0:19:10 | |
-HE SNORTS WITH LAUGHTER -Posh accent, Jo. | 0:19:10 | 0:19:12 | |
Put on a posh accent. | 0:19:12 | 0:19:14 | |
Oh, hello. My name is Jo Carthew. | 0:19:14 | 0:19:16 | |
I'm calling on behalf of a group of companies from South Wales. | 0:19:16 | 0:19:21 | |
At the moment, we have got, um, | 0:19:21 | 0:19:23 | |
four very successful independent companies | 0:19:23 | 0:19:26 | |
who are sort of keen to move forward with this. | 0:19:26 | 0:19:31 | |
So £390 to set it up. | 0:19:31 | 0:19:34 | |
And then what you are saying is an annual fee structure. | 0:19:34 | 0:19:37 | |
I thought it would be more than that. | 0:19:37 | 0:19:38 | |
Well, I look forward to getting your e-mail. | 0:19:38 | 0:19:41 | |
Thank you. OK, bye-bye. | 0:19:41 | 0:19:44 | |
You were so nice, he wanted to help you. | 0:19:44 | 0:19:45 | |
-That was lovely. -You were so nice, he wanted to help you. | 0:19:45 | 0:19:48 | |
-Absolutely red-hot! Well done, kid! -He'll be googling you now, as well! | 0:19:48 | 0:19:52 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:19:52 | 0:19:54 | |
Jo has got us an appointment for this afternoon. | 0:19:55 | 0:19:58 | |
Steve and Irina head off to do the deal... | 0:19:58 | 0:20:00 | |
# Somewhere | 0:20:00 | 0:20:02 | |
# Beyond the sea... # | 0:20:02 | 0:20:05 | |
..and return with Crickhowell's very own offshore company. | 0:20:06 | 0:20:10 | |
We are going to set up different share structures | 0:20:10 | 0:20:12 | |
so if we bring other people in later, brilliant. | 0:20:12 | 0:20:14 | |
We signed the deal there and then. We've got an Isle of Man company. | 0:20:14 | 0:20:18 | |
It's the next morning. With their offshore company up and running, | 0:20:22 | 0:20:25 | |
they're off to find out how to move their profits | 0:20:25 | 0:20:28 | |
from their Crickhowell businesses into their Isle of Man company. | 0:20:28 | 0:20:32 | |
But they have got to do it in a way that is acceptable to the taxman. | 0:20:32 | 0:20:35 | |
Who better to ask for advice than the investigative journalist | 0:20:41 | 0:20:44 | |
who, in 2012, broke the story | 0:20:44 | 0:20:47 | |
of how Starbucks was then avoiding UK corporation tax? | 0:20:47 | 0:20:51 | |
He is Tom Bergin. | 0:20:51 | 0:20:52 | |
One of the very first things I noticed about Starbucks | 0:20:55 | 0:20:57 | |
and its experience in the United Kingdom | 0:20:57 | 0:20:59 | |
was that over the course of around 13 or 14 years, | 0:20:59 | 0:21:01 | |
it had never declared a profit. | 0:21:01 | 0:21:03 | |
The structures which big companies use to cut their tax bill | 0:21:03 | 0:21:06 | |
mean reducing the profits onshore. | 0:21:06 | 0:21:08 | |
That is counterintuitive, because obviously, | 0:21:08 | 0:21:10 | |
companies are supposed to be in business to make profit. | 0:21:10 | 0:21:13 | |
But the situation one ends up in is one whereby the company | 0:21:13 | 0:21:17 | |
looks like it's not profitable, even though it actually is, | 0:21:17 | 0:21:20 | |
in truth, generating a lot of money. | 0:21:20 | 0:21:22 | |
Could you give us an example of what someone has done that might fit, | 0:21:22 | 0:21:26 | |
or that we might be able to slot our concept in with? | 0:21:26 | 0:21:30 | |
A really common way is through the use of what is called | 0:21:30 | 0:21:33 | |
intellectual property. | 0:21:33 | 0:21:34 | |
Now, intellectual property can be just about anything. | 0:21:34 | 0:21:37 | |
It can be the use of a brand name, | 0:21:37 | 0:21:39 | |
but it can also be something as simple as...how you flip a burger. | 0:21:39 | 0:21:43 | |
The way in which you move in a coffee store. | 0:21:43 | 0:21:46 | |
So, in the case of Starbucks, it had to pay 6% of its turnover | 0:21:46 | 0:21:49 | |
to an affiliate just for the right of using the Starbucks brand. | 0:21:49 | 0:21:53 | |
-So, Starbucks was paying itself to use its own brand. -Yes. | 0:21:53 | 0:21:57 | |
And the great thing about intellectual property | 0:21:57 | 0:21:59 | |
is that it's really hard to price. | 0:21:59 | 0:22:01 | |
It's very difficult for a tax authority, | 0:22:01 | 0:22:03 | |
because they'll say, "Oh, how do you justify that?" | 0:22:03 | 0:22:06 | |
They say, "Well, we think it's a reasonable price. Prove it's not." | 0:22:06 | 0:22:09 | |
So we see this with respect to tech companies. | 0:22:09 | 0:22:12 | |
Around half of Google's profits go to Bermuda. | 0:22:12 | 0:22:15 | |
Now, Google doesn't have any staff in Bermuda, | 0:22:15 | 0:22:19 | |
let alone any programmers, so it is quite clear - | 0:22:19 | 0:22:22 | |
and Google is open about this - the code is not created in Bermuda. | 0:22:22 | 0:22:26 | |
-But the profit all ends up there. -Yeah. | 0:22:26 | 0:22:28 | |
That's because the intellectual property | 0:22:28 | 0:22:30 | |
was moved from the United States, where it was created, | 0:22:30 | 0:22:33 | |
and other jurisdictions, into Bermuda. | 0:22:33 | 0:22:35 | |
Maybe we could...we could produce | 0:22:35 | 0:22:40 | |
-a "Visit Crickhowell" intellectual property... -Brand. -Brand. -Yeah. | 0:22:40 | 0:22:45 | |
-So you unify the whole village under one brand. -Yes. | 0:22:45 | 0:22:50 | |
But the whole point is that | 0:22:50 | 0:22:51 | |
our village is made up of lots and lots of small independents. | 0:22:51 | 0:22:54 | |
That's what we are trying to market. But they are all from Crickhowell. | 0:22:54 | 0:22:58 | |
So you have, like, an umbrella company that holds the... | 0:22:58 | 0:23:02 | |
The marketing... | 0:23:02 | 0:23:03 | |
Intellectual property of the shopping Crickhowell. | 0:23:03 | 0:23:06 | |
And then possibly move the intellectual property around, | 0:23:06 | 0:23:10 | |
because that is the easiest thing for us to do. | 0:23:10 | 0:23:12 | |
For two reasons - one, because we have such diverse businesses, | 0:23:12 | 0:23:15 | |
and two, it is a big grey area, cos as you've said, | 0:23:15 | 0:23:18 | |
when you have your discussions with the taxman, | 0:23:18 | 0:23:21 | |
it's very difficult for them to challenge reasonable decisions. | 0:23:21 | 0:23:25 | |
Have we got a board? Oh, let's take this. | 0:23:25 | 0:23:27 | |
Tom has got more to tell us, but first, a brainstorm. | 0:23:27 | 0:23:31 | |
What is special about Crickhowell? | 0:23:31 | 0:23:33 | |
What could be its unique intellectual property? | 0:23:33 | 0:23:36 | |
Anything goes - no such thing as a bad idea. So, Irina. | 0:23:36 | 0:23:41 | |
Branding, we like branding. | 0:23:41 | 0:23:43 | |
OK. Jo? | 0:23:43 | 0:23:45 | |
Is this, like, word association? You just say anything? | 0:23:45 | 0:23:48 | |
Anything that you think is connected to IP. | 0:23:48 | 0:23:52 | |
-Local. -Local. | 0:23:52 | 0:23:54 | |
-Orange. -Sorry? -Orange. -Orange? | 0:23:54 | 0:23:58 | |
Anything goes, remember. It's a brainstorm. | 0:23:58 | 0:24:01 | |
-It's a brainstorm. -What? We might patent a colour. | 0:24:01 | 0:24:05 | |
I think we should think about the things | 0:24:05 | 0:24:07 | |
that do specifically relate to your town, you know? | 0:24:07 | 0:24:09 | |
-Family. -But you need a line that the visitor | 0:24:09 | 0:24:13 | |
-can associate themselves with. -Yeah. | 0:24:13 | 0:24:15 | |
It's a bit like, "Skegness, it's bracing." | 0:24:15 | 0:24:18 | |
How long have they had that? | 0:24:18 | 0:24:20 | |
We could say, "No tax, thanks." | 0:24:20 | 0:24:22 | |
-It's about fair tax. -It's about fair tax. | 0:24:22 | 0:24:24 | |
If you're not paying the taxes, we are not paying the taxes. | 0:24:24 | 0:24:27 | |
-Fair Tax Town! -Fair Tax Town. Fair Tax Town. | 0:24:27 | 0:24:29 | |
-Fair Tax Town is brilliant. It is brilliant. -It gives you... | 0:24:29 | 0:24:33 | |
It gives you information and it also asks the question, | 0:24:33 | 0:24:37 | |
-"What is this Fair Tax business?" -Yeah. | 0:24:37 | 0:24:39 | |
Then people will ask and say, "What are you trying to do?" | 0:24:39 | 0:24:41 | |
Two days in and suddenly, | 0:24:47 | 0:24:49 | |
the team is talking like this could actually work. | 0:24:49 | 0:24:52 | |
Cheers. Well done, well done. Really good, well done. | 0:24:52 | 0:24:56 | |
Say, for instance, you're saving yourself 40 grand a year in tax, | 0:24:56 | 0:24:59 | |
you should be coughing up, say, 20% of that | 0:24:59 | 0:25:05 | |
into some sort of community fund. | 0:25:05 | 0:25:07 | |
You could, of course, pass it to the consumers | 0:25:07 | 0:25:09 | |
so you could actually compete on a better level. | 0:25:09 | 0:25:12 | |
'Tom joins us for a drink and it is soon clear | 0:25:14 | 0:25:16 | |
'that it's a little bit more complicated than we had hoped.' | 0:25:16 | 0:25:19 | |
One of the problems that you have if you just set up a company | 0:25:21 | 0:25:25 | |
in a tax haven and try and have it | 0:25:25 | 0:25:27 | |
license intellectual property to an onshore company | 0:25:27 | 0:25:31 | |
is that you might have additional taxes to pay, in that case. | 0:25:31 | 0:25:34 | |
I mean, specifically, withholding taxes. | 0:25:34 | 0:25:36 | |
What Tom is saying is that the Government has got wise | 0:25:38 | 0:25:41 | |
and imposed a special tax on payments to a tax haven | 0:25:41 | 0:25:44 | |
for intellectual property. | 0:25:44 | 0:25:46 | |
It's called withholding tax. | 0:25:46 | 0:25:48 | |
At 25%, it is 5% more | 0:25:48 | 0:25:51 | |
than corporation tax. | 0:25:51 | 0:25:54 | |
So, you'd think the whole scheme would be pointless. | 0:25:54 | 0:25:57 | |
But you would be wrong. Of course, there is a loophole here, too. | 0:25:57 | 0:26:00 | |
So how did the big boys do it? | 0:26:00 | 0:26:02 | |
The most common way is through the Netherlands, the Dutch sandwich. | 0:26:02 | 0:26:05 | |
-This is a very common technique. -What? -The Dutch sandwich. | 0:26:05 | 0:26:09 | |
OK. Tell us more. | 0:26:09 | 0:26:11 | |
The Dutch sandwich is basically a way in which big companies | 0:26:11 | 0:26:15 | |
get around attempts the Government's put in place | 0:26:15 | 0:26:17 | |
to stop them from avoiding tax. | 0:26:17 | 0:26:19 | |
Next stop, Amsterdam, to see if Crickhowell can get their hands | 0:26:22 | 0:26:26 | |
on a Dutch sandwich of their own. | 0:26:26 | 0:26:28 | |
Unlike the British government, Holland doesn't charge companies tax | 0:26:32 | 0:26:35 | |
on payments to tax havens for intellectual property. | 0:26:35 | 0:26:39 | |
No withholding tax. | 0:26:39 | 0:26:42 | |
Fantastic...for multinationals. | 0:26:42 | 0:26:45 | |
To find out whether this can also help Crickhowell, | 0:26:45 | 0:26:48 | |
we are off to see two guys at the Dutch Financial Times. | 0:26:48 | 0:26:52 | |
We have been told that you are experts on this strange | 0:26:54 | 0:26:58 | |
Dutch anomaly in Europe, | 0:26:58 | 0:27:00 | |
that you were the people to speak to, | 0:27:00 | 0:27:02 | |
and how the system works. | 0:27:02 | 0:27:04 | |
If you set up a Dutch company, it's Dutch law, | 0:27:04 | 0:27:09 | |
there is no withholding tax on interest on loans and royalties. | 0:27:09 | 0:27:15 | |
You don't have to pay any withholding tax. | 0:27:15 | 0:27:18 | |
Just for my sake, in simple words, | 0:27:18 | 0:27:20 | |
we have set up our Isle of Man company, | 0:27:20 | 0:27:22 | |
-we are going to put the intellectual property into there. -Yes. | 0:27:22 | 0:27:25 | |
We are then going to start this cycle | 0:27:25 | 0:27:29 | |
where we set up a licence, sublicence, in the Netherlands... | 0:27:29 | 0:27:36 | |
-Yeah. -..in a daughter company... | 0:27:36 | 0:27:38 | |
-Yes. -..and then we're going to start the money moving around in a circle. | 0:27:38 | 0:27:42 | |
-Right. -Yes. -That's it. | 0:27:42 | 0:27:43 | |
This scheme is amazingly simple. | 0:27:43 | 0:27:46 | |
The key is to set up a Dutch company, | 0:27:46 | 0:27:49 | |
sandwiched between the UK and a tax haven. | 0:27:49 | 0:27:52 | |
That company can get money tax-free | 0:27:52 | 0:27:54 | |
because there is no withholding tax | 0:27:54 | 0:27:56 | |
on payments from the UK to Dutch companies, | 0:27:56 | 0:27:59 | |
and with no withholding tax in the Netherlands, | 0:27:59 | 0:28:02 | |
they can get that money | 0:28:02 | 0:28:03 | |
to the Isle of Man tax-free, too. | 0:28:03 | 0:28:06 | |
-But we would have to have a daughter company here to do that. -Yeah. | 0:28:06 | 0:28:09 | |
-You need an entity here. -And what does that entity look like? | 0:28:09 | 0:28:13 | |
Maybe you can see, there, behind the trees? | 0:28:13 | 0:28:16 | |
-Yes. -You see that building over there? | 0:28:16 | 0:28:19 | |
There are more than 4,000 companies over there, based there. | 0:28:19 | 0:28:23 | |
They don't have very much room! | 0:28:23 | 0:28:24 | |
They don't even really have a presence? | 0:28:24 | 0:28:26 | |
-They are literally an address? -Yes, yeah. | 0:28:26 | 0:28:28 | |
-So, it is a scam? -No, it is trick, and it is completely legal. | 0:28:28 | 0:28:33 | |
So, how many multinational companies | 0:28:33 | 0:28:34 | |
are doing this in Amsterdam right now? | 0:28:34 | 0:28:36 | |
What's the scale of it? | 0:28:36 | 0:28:37 | |
The total number, it is almost 15,000 of these entities | 0:28:37 | 0:28:42 | |
who are only in the Netherlands for tax reasons. | 0:28:42 | 0:28:46 | |
This is what the yearly flow is... | 0:28:46 | 0:28:50 | |
-My God. -..through the Netherlands. | 0:28:50 | 0:28:52 | |
It is almost 8,000 billion euros. | 0:28:52 | 0:28:57 | |
-Is that 8 trillion? -8 trillion. | 0:28:57 | 0:29:00 | |
8 trillion euros a year is flowing through the Netherlands. | 0:29:00 | 0:29:03 | |
8 trillion in and out. | 0:29:03 | 0:29:06 | |
I can't believe that! | 0:29:06 | 0:29:08 | |
I mean, actually, you just wouldn't be doing your shareholders justice | 0:29:08 | 0:29:12 | |
if you weren't here with a daughter company, would you? | 0:29:12 | 0:29:15 | |
-You would be stupid! -It is outrageous. | 0:29:15 | 0:29:17 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:29:21 | 0:29:24 | |
OK, we are off. | 0:29:24 | 0:29:25 | |
Excited by the apparent ease of tax avoidance, | 0:29:25 | 0:29:28 | |
the team want to find out more. | 0:29:28 | 0:29:29 | |
Forward, troops! | 0:29:29 | 0:29:32 | |
Two local journalists, Henk and Martin, | 0:29:32 | 0:29:34 | |
have volunteered take us on a tour of the city's hidden nameplates. | 0:29:34 | 0:29:38 | |
Hello. Hello. | 0:29:38 | 0:29:41 | |
We are here and we are at the office of Subway. | 0:29:41 | 0:29:45 | |
Can we get a little snap with the name plate, while we are here? | 0:29:45 | 0:29:48 | |
Hang on, let me clean it for you, first. Hang on... | 0:29:48 | 0:29:51 | |
Every Subway shop in the UK has to pay 8% of all their sales | 0:29:51 | 0:29:56 | |
in order to use the Subway brand. | 0:29:56 | 0:29:58 | |
The money comes through this office in Amsterdam. | 0:29:58 | 0:30:01 | |
Around half of it is then moved onwards | 0:30:01 | 0:30:03 | |
to the tax haven of Lichtenstein. | 0:30:03 | 0:30:05 | |
Why don't you ring the bell? | 0:30:05 | 0:30:07 | |
We're trying to get a Dutch sandwich, | 0:30:07 | 0:30:09 | |
we were told to come here, we would be able to get one. | 0:30:09 | 0:30:13 | |
-INTERCOM: -Do you have an appointment? | 0:30:13 | 0:30:14 | |
And Subway isn't the only one. | 0:30:16 | 0:30:19 | |
We're at Facebook. | 0:30:19 | 0:30:20 | |
Facebook's scheme is known as the "Double Irish", | 0:30:20 | 0:30:24 | |
with the Dutch Sandwich. | 0:30:24 | 0:30:25 | |
Don't even ask. | 0:30:25 | 0:30:27 | |
Facebook has a very complicated structure. | 0:30:27 | 0:30:29 | |
It goes via Luxembourg, Delaware, Ireland, | 0:30:29 | 0:30:32 | |
and the money ends in the Cayman Islands. | 0:30:32 | 0:30:35 | |
-This is the fiscal office of U2 and the Rolling Stones. -ALL: -Aaah! | 0:30:38 | 0:30:43 | |
It's not just multi-nationals using the Netherlands for tax reasons. | 0:30:43 | 0:30:48 | |
This office collects the royalties | 0:30:48 | 0:30:50 | |
for much of U2 and the Rolling Stones' back catalogue. | 0:30:50 | 0:30:53 | |
Good morning! | 0:30:53 | 0:30:54 | |
Why? | 0:30:54 | 0:30:55 | |
Because Holland offers generous tax breaks on artistic royalties. | 0:30:55 | 0:30:58 | |
-INTERCOM: -Hello. | 0:30:58 | 0:31:00 | |
Hello, I was just passing as I'm just here for the weekend, | 0:31:00 | 0:31:03 | |
and I just wondered if Bono was in | 0:31:03 | 0:31:05 | |
to sign a copy of my Joshua Tree album. | 0:31:05 | 0:31:07 | |
Thank you. | 0:31:13 | 0:31:14 | |
OK, so, the GDP of the world is 87 trillion. | 0:31:14 | 0:31:18 | |
-87? -87. 10% of the entire GDP of the world is... | 0:31:18 | 0:31:24 | |
-In Holland. -..is going through this country right now. | 0:31:24 | 0:31:27 | |
-Cheers. -Fantastic. | 0:31:27 | 0:31:28 | |
We have beaten it down to the bare bones, | 0:31:28 | 0:31:32 | |
whereas, before, it was impossibly complicated and people were | 0:31:32 | 0:31:36 | |
telling us it's impossible to do this, and it's really difficult. | 0:31:36 | 0:31:40 | |
But, in fact, it isn't. It isn't that difficult. | 0:31:40 | 0:31:43 | |
I was trying to make it more complicated than it was. | 0:31:43 | 0:31:46 | |
-I've hardened my resolve, but softened my view. -Good, that's good. | 0:31:46 | 0:31:49 | |
And the way it's hardened my resolve is, actually, | 0:31:49 | 0:31:51 | |
you know, I genuinely want to take this a step further now | 0:31:51 | 0:31:54 | |
-and really see, OK... -Yeah, you keep talking about... | 0:31:54 | 0:31:56 | |
-..let's put it into practice. -..expanding it. | 0:31:56 | 0:31:59 | |
And what would it look like in 12 months' time? | 0:31:59 | 0:32:01 | |
Jeff's scepticism about the project is melting away, | 0:32:01 | 0:32:04 | |
and Steve is starting to think big. | 0:32:04 | 0:32:06 | |
You guys could teach other towns how to do what you've done. | 0:32:06 | 0:32:09 | |
How do you scale it up? That's right. | 0:32:09 | 0:32:11 | |
-We could sell them the expertise. -OK, now you're thinking. | 0:32:11 | 0:32:14 | |
-But they would have to pay a nominal fee for the training. -To us? | 0:32:14 | 0:32:19 | |
-No, to us. -To us, yeah. -No, you're just making the show, | 0:32:19 | 0:32:24 | |
-we ARE the show. -Oh, it's you and us now! | 0:32:24 | 0:32:27 | |
It's very kind of you, but we'll run it from here. | 0:32:27 | 0:32:30 | |
Damn! | 0:32:30 | 0:32:31 | |
It's the next day, and we're ready | 0:32:34 | 0:32:36 | |
to set up our very own Dutch mailbox company. | 0:32:36 | 0:32:38 | |
-How's it going? -Welcome. | 0:32:40 | 0:32:43 | |
Welcome to the Netherlands. | 0:32:43 | 0:32:44 | |
Thank you. | 0:32:44 | 0:32:45 | |
'Time to meet Dennis and Rolf, two men so proud to be part of | 0:32:45 | 0:32:48 | |
'Amsterdam's tax avoidance industry that they've even agree to be filmed. | 0:32:48 | 0:32:52 | |
'But will they help Crickhowell outwit the taxman?' | 0:32:52 | 0:32:57 | |
Yeah, that's absolutely possible. | 0:32:57 | 0:32:59 | |
It's nice to see some businessmen, and ladies, of course, | 0:32:59 | 0:33:03 | |
here in our Amsterdam office to, er, to talk about this tax avoidance, | 0:33:03 | 0:33:08 | |
because that is what we are talking about. | 0:33:08 | 0:33:11 | |
How is it possible to pay, in a legal way, | 0:33:11 | 0:33:14 | |
without the boundaries of the law, | 0:33:14 | 0:33:16 | |
as less tax as possible? | 0:33:16 | 0:33:18 | |
So the basics that we discuss today, | 0:33:18 | 0:33:20 | |
and you had a phone-call already with my colleague, Rolf, | 0:33:20 | 0:33:23 | |
they are clear and they are sound. | 0:33:23 | 0:33:26 | |
-Shall we set this company up? -Yeah, OK. -Let's do it. | 0:33:26 | 0:33:28 | |
-This one... -Yeah. -..and this one, please. -Yeah. | 0:33:28 | 0:33:31 | |
'Dutch law says that all companies need an honorary chairman | 0:33:31 | 0:33:35 | |
'who will come, in person, to Holland each year | 0:33:35 | 0:33:37 | |
'for the annual general meeting. | 0:33:37 | 0:33:39 | |
'Seems a good excuse for a regular trip to Amsterdam, | 0:33:39 | 0:33:42 | |
'so I generously volunteered.' | 0:33:42 | 0:33:44 | |
It's very similar to what we've done in the Isle of Man, isn't it? Incredibly similar. | 0:33:44 | 0:33:49 | |
-OK, so, that's done. -Thank you so much. | 0:33:49 | 0:33:51 | |
-Congratulations. -Thanks very much. -You've got a new company. | 0:33:51 | 0:33:56 | |
-You're a Dutch taxpayer now. -Yes. -Not too much! | 0:33:57 | 0:33:59 | |
-We should prepare the first shareholders meeting, actually. -OK. | 0:33:59 | 0:34:02 | |
You should sit at the head of the table, actually. | 0:34:02 | 0:34:05 | |
-OK. -Should we change seats then? | 0:34:05 | 0:34:06 | |
-Let's swap. -Yeah, yeah. | 0:34:06 | 0:34:09 | |
Well, here we are. | 0:34:11 | 0:34:13 | |
'Our tax squad has done it. The final piece of the puzzle is in place, | 0:34:13 | 0:34:17 | |
'and we're all thrilled, apart from Irena, | 0:34:17 | 0:34:20 | |
'who's beginning to have some doubts.' | 0:34:20 | 0:34:22 | |
I appreciate it's absolutely legal, everyone is doing it. | 0:34:22 | 0:34:26 | |
Do you feel like you're just doing your job? | 0:34:26 | 0:34:28 | |
Do you feel like you are helping people? | 0:34:28 | 0:34:31 | |
-Do you feel like, er... -The... | 0:34:31 | 0:34:34 | |
What's your views on the whole system? | 0:34:34 | 0:34:37 | |
What we are doing, and I am speaking for myself now, | 0:34:37 | 0:34:41 | |
is really helping people and their businesses | 0:34:41 | 0:34:47 | |
to be as successful as possible | 0:34:47 | 0:34:50 | |
by paying less taxes than they normally would. | 0:34:50 | 0:34:55 | |
What I think is strange is that some people even denounce tax avoidance, | 0:34:55 | 0:35:00 | |
even before we can even explain how we are providing | 0:35:00 | 0:35:04 | |
the substance to it, how we are actually creating this structure. | 0:35:04 | 0:35:08 | |
I mean, taxes, in my opinion, they are a choice, | 0:35:08 | 0:35:10 | |
an individual choice of every citizen. | 0:35:10 | 0:35:12 | |
A moral responsibility, in that sense, for me, is like, | 0:35:12 | 0:35:15 | |
it's make-believe. It's like Santa Claus. | 0:35:15 | 0:35:17 | |
You have rules which state how much tax you should have to pay | 0:35:17 | 0:35:21 | |
and the freedom is created by the legislator. | 0:35:21 | 0:35:24 | |
You should use that freedom. | 0:35:24 | 0:35:27 | |
The job is done and we are about to head home. | 0:35:35 | 0:35:38 | |
But first, Hank and Martin take us on a canal trip. | 0:35:38 | 0:35:40 | |
They want to explain exactly how Amsterdam ended up | 0:35:40 | 0:35:43 | |
as the tax avoiders' favourite city. | 0:35:43 | 0:35:46 | |
Amsterdam was the city where | 0:35:46 | 0:35:47 | |
the first stock exchange in the world was founded, | 0:35:47 | 0:35:51 | |
and it was a financial centre from the 1600s until now. | 0:35:51 | 0:35:57 | |
But we've never had a big manufacturing base. | 0:35:57 | 0:35:59 | |
In Holland, for 30-40 years this century, | 0:35:59 | 0:36:04 | |
you've led innovation in a number of sectors, | 0:36:04 | 0:36:07 | |
and if you'd had the moral courage, instead of going for the easy money, | 0:36:07 | 0:36:12 | |
tax, you'd have developed that innovation economy. | 0:36:12 | 0:36:15 | |
-You just haven't done it. -It's not these guys' fault! | 0:36:15 | 0:36:17 | |
They're just the journalists! | 0:36:17 | 0:36:20 | |
There's a big hole in the argument. | 0:36:20 | 0:36:23 | |
-You make your choices in life... -Yeah, you're right. | 0:36:23 | 0:36:25 | |
..the Netherlands has chosen to go down a tax route, because it's easy. | 0:36:25 | 0:36:29 | |
It's an industry! It's an industry. | 0:36:29 | 0:36:31 | |
I've got four daughters and I want them to be engineers, | 0:36:31 | 0:36:34 | |
I want them to be creative, I want them to add value to society. | 0:36:34 | 0:36:38 | |
None of this adds value to society. | 0:36:38 | 0:36:40 | |
I'm bloody liberal! I'm not left-wing, for Christ's sake, | 0:36:40 | 0:36:44 | |
you've turned me into a Communist! | 0:36:44 | 0:36:46 | |
In three days! | 0:36:47 | 0:36:49 | |
'Behnaz Akbar is here now with the latest weather forecast. | 0:36:52 | 0:36:55 | |
-'How's it looking? -Yeah, shivery is a good way of describing it. | 0:36:55 | 0:36:58 | |
'It's been a pretty chilly night. | 0:36:58 | 0:37:00 | |
'We do have another dry, unsettled day to look forward to. | 0:37:00 | 0:37:02 | |
'So, a chilly start this morning...' | 0:37:02 | 0:37:04 | |
Back in Crickhowell, it's the weekend. | 0:37:04 | 0:37:07 | |
The guys have time to reflect on the trip with family and friends, | 0:37:07 | 0:37:11 | |
and also think about what the next move should be. | 0:37:11 | 0:37:14 | |
Is it easier to just say, "How many companies don't do this?" | 0:37:16 | 0:37:20 | |
There are office blocks with one or two employees in, | 0:37:20 | 0:37:25 | |
where 30 or 40,000 companies are registered. | 0:37:25 | 0:37:28 | |
-It's just crackers. -It's disgusting. | 0:37:29 | 0:37:31 | |
The tax lawyer we spoke to at the start of the operation said, | 0:37:31 | 0:37:34 | |
"Oh, you don't want to do that, it's far too complicated" and everything else. | 0:37:34 | 0:37:39 | |
But it turned out to be remarkably easy. | 0:37:39 | 0:37:42 | |
So, basically, all we have to do now is present it to the town. | 0:37:42 | 0:37:48 | |
If we can get it set up so it's possible for small towns to do it, | 0:37:48 | 0:37:52 | |
then it just gives us a lot of clout | 0:37:52 | 0:37:55 | |
in the argument with the powers that be | 0:37:55 | 0:37:57 | |
that this situation shouldn't exist. | 0:37:57 | 0:38:00 | |
Irena catches up with her neighbour, Peter, | 0:38:02 | 0:38:04 | |
who owns the local department store. | 0:38:04 | 0:38:06 | |
And he's worrying her. | 0:38:06 | 0:38:08 | |
-But if we all do it... -Mm-hmm. -..and we all live here... -Mm-hmm. | 0:38:08 | 0:38:12 | |
..who's going to pay for the roads, for the NHS, for the schools? | 0:38:12 | 0:38:16 | |
There's going to be no services because nobody is paying for it. | 0:38:16 | 0:38:19 | |
My family will say, "Pfft, don't want to get involved in that," | 0:38:19 | 0:38:22 | |
because, how will that reflect on our customers? | 0:38:22 | 0:38:25 | |
They'll just think we're crooked, what else are we up to, | 0:38:25 | 0:38:28 | |
and they won't come in the store. | 0:38:28 | 0:38:30 | |
And they won't come in to your store, | 0:38:30 | 0:38:32 | |
the butchers, the bakers or anywhere else. | 0:38:32 | 0:38:34 | |
No, I agree with you completely. I got up this morning and I thought, | 0:38:34 | 0:38:38 | |
"Do you know what? It doesn't matter what everyone else does, | 0:38:38 | 0:38:42 | |
"I've got some moral principles," which, it's just, | 0:38:42 | 0:38:46 | |
that's the way the world works, and if someone wants to drop litter, | 0:38:46 | 0:38:51 | |
it's up to them. I'm going not to do it. | 0:38:51 | 0:38:54 | |
Steve has zero doubts. He's come back fired up, | 0:38:56 | 0:38:59 | |
and believes the tax scheme could really work. | 0:38:59 | 0:39:02 | |
He's designing a Fair Tax Town brand, | 0:39:02 | 0:39:04 | |
which he wants the businesses of Crickhowell to adopt. | 0:39:04 | 0:39:07 | |
We'd be putting the brand identity and the brand handbook offshore, | 0:39:08 | 0:39:14 | |
and you pay all your profits to buy that brand handbook. | 0:39:14 | 0:39:18 | |
He reckons that, with enough support, they could be a threat to the taxman. | 0:39:18 | 0:39:22 | |
Either the loopholes get closed, or hundreds, | 0:39:22 | 0:39:25 | |
if not thousands of small businesses could go offshore, too. | 0:39:25 | 0:39:28 | |
I don't want to avoid paying tax, | 0:39:28 | 0:39:30 | |
I want to create the principle and prove the principle | 0:39:30 | 0:39:33 | |
that I will do it and make it work, and then you've got a problem, HMRC. | 0:39:33 | 0:39:38 | |
As Steve gets more determined, Irena gets more worried. | 0:39:42 | 0:39:45 | |
She fears Steve wants to put into practice | 0:39:45 | 0:39:48 | |
the kind of things Starbucks used to do. | 0:39:48 | 0:39:50 | |
To carry out the threat, Crickhowell would have to join together | 0:39:53 | 0:39:57 | |
and lower ourselves down to the same level | 0:39:57 | 0:39:59 | |
as Starbucks and other big companies. | 0:39:59 | 0:40:02 | |
There won't be any tax paid by anybody | 0:40:02 | 0:40:04 | |
and there won't be any money left for anything. | 0:40:04 | 0:40:07 | |
Irena has become convinced that if the scheme really works | 0:40:08 | 0:40:12 | |
they'll just be seen as a bunch of tax avoiders. | 0:40:12 | 0:40:14 | |
The three of them get together for a crisis meeting, with Jo on the speakerphone. | 0:40:16 | 0:40:20 | |
'That's the thing, we don't need to say we're doing it, | 0:40:20 | 0:40:23 | |
'we just need to show that it is possible.' | 0:40:23 | 0:40:25 | |
It needs to be a credible threat. And credible. | 0:40:25 | 0:40:27 | |
'That it's possible and credible.' | 0:40:27 | 0:40:29 | |
I completely disagree, Jo. I sincerely hope Crickhowell would say no to it, | 0:40:29 | 0:40:34 | |
and wouldn't be in with the bad boys who don't pay any taxes. | 0:40:34 | 0:40:38 | |
I think Crickhowell should be above it. | 0:40:38 | 0:40:40 | |
This entire set-up is in an effort to copy Starbucks, threaten... | 0:40:40 | 0:40:47 | |
-Exactly, you... -No! -..you're doing exactly what they're doing! | 0:40:47 | 0:40:50 | |
We're not doing what Starbucks are doing, | 0:40:50 | 0:40:52 | |
because we derive no benefit from it. | 0:40:52 | 0:40:54 | |
What we're doing is, we're copying Starbucks as a, basically, to put pressure on the Government | 0:40:54 | 0:41:00 | |
to change the system that allows Starbucks to get away with it! | 0:41:00 | 0:41:05 | |
What I don't want to do is spend an awful lot of time trying to | 0:41:05 | 0:41:08 | |
persuade people that are vacillating over their engagement. | 0:41:08 | 0:41:12 | |
If they're not with us, then they move to one side | 0:41:12 | 0:41:15 | |
and we move forward without them. | 0:41:15 | 0:41:17 | |
Yeah, if you're not with me, you're against me, is that it? | 0:41:17 | 0:41:19 | |
-I didn't say that. -That's exactly what you said. -No, I didn't say that. | 0:41:19 | 0:41:22 | |
I said, "Don't just get in my way." Our threat has to be real, | 0:41:22 | 0:41:25 | |
you've got to be carrying a big enough stick | 0:41:25 | 0:41:27 | |
to land the blow you're threatening to land. | 0:41:27 | 0:41:30 | |
And if we don't go there with that credibility, | 0:41:30 | 0:41:32 | |
we're going to be dog meat. | 0:41:32 | 0:41:34 | |
Steve is at home with the family, and he's incredibly worried that | 0:41:38 | 0:41:41 | |
Irena isn't going to be the only dissenting voice in Crickhowell. | 0:41:41 | 0:41:44 | |
So you've all got to get everyone in Crickhowell to be behind you, | 0:41:45 | 0:41:49 | |
to believe in what you're doing, | 0:41:49 | 0:41:51 | |
to trust you, | 0:41:51 | 0:41:52 | |
and then I think you'll have a big bunch of followers. | 0:41:52 | 0:41:55 | |
I'm highly sceptical of whether you'll get that out of Crickhowellians, | 0:41:55 | 0:41:59 | |
-I think they're... -Maybe you underestimate. | 0:41:59 | 0:42:02 | |
I think it's full of fragile people. | 0:42:02 | 0:42:04 | |
But, um... So I'd rather surrender... | 0:42:05 | 0:42:07 | |
I'm not sure I agree with that. | 0:42:07 | 0:42:08 | |
No, I know you don't, but I do. | 0:42:08 | 0:42:10 | |
I love the Fair Tax Town idea. | 0:42:10 | 0:42:12 | |
But I think you have to widen it to Fair Tax Town where you incorporate lots of other people. | 0:42:12 | 0:42:17 | |
So I would cast my net wider. | 0:42:18 | 0:42:20 | |
I am beginning to think, maybe, Steve... | 0:42:20 | 0:42:24 | |
..is not going to win over any friends if he's being... | 0:42:26 | 0:42:30 | |
..disparaging about the people in Crickhowell. | 0:42:31 | 0:42:34 | |
They're not sure whether Steve's the right person to run it, | 0:42:34 | 0:42:36 | |
because he ruffles lots of feathers. | 0:42:36 | 0:42:38 | |
Um, but he's certainly very energetic and doesn't give up, | 0:42:38 | 0:42:42 | |
so in that way he's absolutely the right person. | 0:42:42 | 0:42:45 | |
But, um, will everyone want to follow? I'm not sure. | 0:42:45 | 0:42:50 | |
Steve's been persuaded to at least try to win the support | 0:42:52 | 0:42:55 | |
of Crickhowell's other businesses. | 0:42:55 | 0:42:57 | |
I will endeavour to explain what we got up to while we were away and what's happened since. | 0:42:58 | 0:43:03 | |
Irena, unfortunately, can't be here. | 0:43:03 | 0:43:05 | |
She's got a bit-part in a Bond film. | 0:43:05 | 0:43:07 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:43:07 | 0:43:09 | |
Right, OK, well, this is how it works. | 0:43:12 | 0:43:15 | |
You've sold your intellectual property to the Isle of Man, | 0:43:15 | 0:43:18 | |
but you can't lease it from there, so you lease it back | 0:43:18 | 0:43:21 | |
at so much per month, according to what your profits are going to be, | 0:43:21 | 0:43:24 | |
you lease it back from the company in Holland. | 0:43:24 | 0:43:26 | |
And, so, you send them money every month, | 0:43:26 | 0:43:29 | |
and they send the money to the tax haven. | 0:43:29 | 0:43:32 | |
You can, also, because you've got | 0:43:32 | 0:43:35 | |
this huge pot of money in your tax haven, | 0:43:35 | 0:43:39 | |
borrow money from there, | 0:43:39 | 0:43:41 | |
despite the fact it's yours, but it's not really yours, | 0:43:41 | 0:43:43 | |
because it belongs to a different company. | 0:43:43 | 0:43:45 | |
Borrow money from there, and then you can claim tax back | 0:43:45 | 0:43:48 | |
on the interest you're paying on the loan! | 0:43:48 | 0:43:50 | |
And pay yourself dividends, | 0:43:50 | 0:43:52 | |
-and pay yourself dividends. -And pay yourself dividends. | 0:43:52 | 0:43:54 | |
And you can control the amount of dividends you draw, | 0:43:54 | 0:43:57 | |
so you only pay a lower rate, | 0:43:57 | 0:43:58 | |
lower rate of tax on... It's just super. | 0:43:58 | 0:44:01 | |
It is a licence to print cash. | 0:44:01 | 0:44:03 | |
And it happens all the time. | 0:44:03 | 0:44:05 | |
I'm going to hand some of these... You don't... | 0:44:05 | 0:44:08 | |
Just share them, because we've got more people here than I expect. | 0:44:08 | 0:44:11 | |
Can you pass those round? Thank you. | 0:44:11 | 0:44:12 | |
So, for instance, | 0:44:12 | 0:44:13 | |
we could sell this to another town. | 0:44:13 | 0:44:15 | |
UMV Crickhowell, do you want to be like us? | 0:44:16 | 0:44:18 | |
Well, here's the brand handbook, this is how you do it. | 0:44:18 | 0:44:21 | |
Fair Tax Town, this is the scrutiny, if you like, | 0:44:21 | 0:44:24 | |
the little magnifying glass on the big companies. | 0:44:24 | 0:44:27 | |
This is...allows you to say, take off Crickhowell, | 0:44:27 | 0:44:30 | |
put in Talgarth, put in Brecon, put in whatever. | 0:44:30 | 0:44:33 | |
But the fair tax piece is in the middle, and this allows you, then, | 0:44:33 | 0:44:36 | |
to brand it to whatever community wants to carry it. | 0:44:36 | 0:44:38 | |
And then you build that as a brand identity. | 0:44:38 | 0:44:41 | |
And, before you know it, you've suddenly got a movement. | 0:44:41 | 0:44:45 | |
And that movement, I think, will have a real, real traction. | 0:44:45 | 0:44:48 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:44:48 | 0:44:50 | |
With most of the businesses now on board, | 0:44:52 | 0:44:55 | |
Crickhowell unleashes the Fair Tax Town brand on an unsuspecting world. | 0:44:55 | 0:45:01 | |
Free cake! | 0:45:01 | 0:45:02 | |
Free cake this way! | 0:45:02 | 0:45:04 | |
Thank you. | 0:45:04 | 0:45:06 | |
Yes! | 0:45:06 | 0:45:07 | |
Yeah, that's good. | 0:45:07 | 0:45:08 | |
These are the window ones. | 0:45:08 | 0:45:10 | |
Right, I think we'll be able to pop it up there. | 0:45:10 | 0:45:12 | |
# Lazing on a sunny afternoon. # | 0:45:13 | 0:45:17 | |
-Yes! -How you doing, Heydon? | 0:45:17 | 0:45:19 | |
-Look at that, a miniscule piece of tax. -Whoa! | 0:45:19 | 0:45:24 | |
Take a bite of that and see how nice that is, | 0:45:24 | 0:45:27 | |
cos you know you've paid fair tax. | 0:45:27 | 0:45:29 | |
We've set up some offshore holding companies. | 0:45:29 | 0:45:31 | |
They even make their own promo video. | 0:45:31 | 0:45:34 | |
-Does that work? -Very good. | 0:45:34 | 0:45:36 | |
Recently... | 0:45:36 | 0:45:37 | |
Yeah, my brain's gone. | 0:45:37 | 0:45:40 | |
If it's optional for the multinationals, | 0:45:41 | 0:45:43 | |
then it only fair that it's optional for us small... | 0:45:43 | 0:45:46 | |
-LAUGHING: -She's making me laugh! | 0:45:46 | 0:45:48 | |
Could Crickhowell be about to go viral? | 0:45:48 | 0:45:52 | |
Us smalmm... | 0:45:52 | 0:45:53 | |
-HE SIGHS -Got the wrong teeth in now. | 0:45:53 | 0:45:54 | |
We've come together to see | 0:45:54 | 0:45:56 | |
if we can copy the tax avoidance tricks that the big boys use. | 0:45:56 | 0:46:00 | |
The big question now is how the taxman will react to our plans. | 0:46:02 | 0:46:05 | |
There's only one way to find out. | 0:46:05 | 0:46:08 | |
The team arrives in London | 0:46:08 | 0:46:10 | |
to meet with Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs. | 0:46:10 | 0:46:12 | |
With Irena a conscientious objector, | 0:46:12 | 0:46:15 | |
Emma from the bookshop has taken her place. | 0:46:15 | 0:46:17 | |
It could be a make-or-break meeting. | 0:46:17 | 0:46:20 | |
Time to plan how to play it. | 0:46:20 | 0:46:21 | |
And who better to talk to than an ex top taxman? | 0:46:21 | 0:46:25 | |
Richard Brooks is now an investigative journalist, | 0:46:25 | 0:46:27 | |
but he used to work for HMRC. | 0:46:27 | 0:46:30 | |
He left because he was unhappy | 0:46:30 | 0:46:32 | |
about the organisation's close relationships with big corporations. | 0:46:32 | 0:46:35 | |
-We want some tips on what to do when we get in. -Tips. -Tactics. | 0:46:35 | 0:46:39 | |
-Right. -Tactics, please. -OK. | 0:46:39 | 0:46:42 | |
Well, if I were you, my approach would be to say | 0:46:42 | 0:46:46 | |
that I want exactly what the largest businesses in Britain get. | 0:46:46 | 0:46:51 | |
Maybe the thousand or so largest companies operating in Britain | 0:46:51 | 0:46:56 | |
will have dedicated customer relationship managers. | 0:46:56 | 0:47:00 | |
Well, if they're planning any offshore tax scheme, | 0:47:00 | 0:47:02 | |
they go to their customer relationship manager, | 0:47:02 | 0:47:04 | |
they talk it over and they see if they can agree... | 0:47:04 | 0:47:07 | |
They get sort of pre-approval? | 0:47:07 | 0:47:08 | |
Well, yeah, they will agree on what the right tax treatment is. | 0:47:08 | 0:47:11 | |
While they can see large businesses doing it, | 0:47:11 | 0:47:14 | |
they're probably fairly happy. | 0:47:14 | 0:47:16 | |
You know, they know what's going on, it's under control. | 0:47:16 | 0:47:19 | |
But if they see people like you trying to get in on the act, | 0:47:19 | 0:47:23 | |
it's going to alarm them. | 0:47:23 | 0:47:24 | |
I hope it does! | 0:47:24 | 0:47:26 | |
THEY LAUGH | 0:47:26 | 0:47:27 | |
'So here's the plan. | 0:47:33 | 0:47:35 | |
'The team are going to ask HMRC for the same VIP treatment | 0:47:35 | 0:47:39 | |
'that they give to big multinationals. | 0:47:39 | 0:47:41 | |
'The meeting's with the director general of business tax, Jim Harra. | 0:47:43 | 0:47:47 | |
'He's the National Tax Personality Of The Year. | 0:47:47 | 0:47:50 | |
'And the buck stops with him.' | 0:47:50 | 0:47:53 | |
It seems that big businesses are able to come | 0:47:53 | 0:47:57 | |
and negotiate their tax terms with HMRC. | 0:47:57 | 0:48:01 | |
So, really, that's why we're here. | 0:48:01 | 0:48:03 | |
We'd just like some advice, really. | 0:48:03 | 0:48:05 | |
The multinationals, from our point of view, | 0:48:05 | 0:48:07 | |
are both a high-value group but also a high-risk group. | 0:48:07 | 0:48:11 | |
Our approach is to man-mark them, | 0:48:11 | 0:48:14 | |
so we put quite a lot of resource onto making sure | 0:48:14 | 0:48:17 | |
we understand what they're doing, what their tax strategy is, | 0:48:17 | 0:48:20 | |
the details of all their transactions. | 0:48:20 | 0:48:22 | |
Is man-marking just a different way of saying "have a cosy relationship"? | 0:48:22 | 0:48:26 | |
-Man-marking system? -I don't agree that we have cosy relationships. | 0:48:26 | 0:48:30 | |
THEY LAUGH | 0:48:30 | 0:48:31 | |
-The purpose of... -Just snug. | 0:48:31 | 0:48:33 | |
No, I don't agree... I don't agree that they're snug. | 0:48:33 | 0:48:35 | |
The purpose of our relationship managers with large businesses | 0:48:35 | 0:48:38 | |
is about managing the risk that they pose. | 0:48:38 | 0:48:40 | |
You regularly sit down with some of the most egregious tax avoiders | 0:48:40 | 0:48:44 | |
in the country, and you talk about tax competitiveness. | 0:48:44 | 0:48:47 | |
You regularly do that. We've looked at the minutes on your website. | 0:48:47 | 0:48:50 | |
It is our job to engage with these people | 0:48:50 | 0:48:54 | |
and understand what they are doing. | 0:48:54 | 0:48:55 | |
They are not, from our point of view, | 0:48:55 | 0:48:57 | |
beyond the pale to engage with. | 0:48:57 | 0:48:59 | |
We want a level playing field. | 0:48:59 | 0:49:01 | |
And, at the moment, we don't have a level playing field | 0:49:01 | 0:49:04 | |
because those sort of conversations are never had with people like us. | 0:49:04 | 0:49:07 | |
There are about 5 million small businesses, | 0:49:07 | 0:49:09 | |
there are only about 2,000 large. | 0:49:09 | 0:49:11 | |
So I do not have the ability to put a named person | 0:49:11 | 0:49:15 | |
on every small business. | 0:49:15 | 0:49:17 | |
'It's time to see if Jim will give us the same deal as the big boys.' | 0:49:17 | 0:49:21 | |
If I could show you a way whereby we play by the same rules | 0:49:22 | 0:49:25 | |
as the big boys, we put our intellectual property offshore. | 0:49:25 | 0:49:28 | |
If I can put a system in front of you | 0:49:28 | 0:49:30 | |
-that meets all of that criteria... -With a lot of businesses. | 0:49:30 | 0:49:33 | |
..you'd have to judge us fairly, as you are with the others, | 0:49:33 | 0:49:36 | |
-otherwise you'd end up in the law courts. -Absolutely. | 0:49:36 | 0:49:38 | |
Great. Brilliant. | 0:49:38 | 0:49:40 | |
You may find a business model coming your way | 0:49:40 | 0:49:42 | |
where you and I get much, much closer to each other. | 0:49:42 | 0:49:45 | |
-LAUGHTER -Ooh! | 0:49:45 | 0:49:47 | |
Well, that's going to be fascinating... Fascinating to see. | 0:49:47 | 0:49:50 | |
I'll enjoy a beer with you. | 0:49:50 | 0:49:52 | |
As I say, I think that's where you'll see that I will | 0:49:52 | 0:49:55 | |
deploy resources to try and manage that risk on behalf of the public. | 0:49:55 | 0:49:58 | |
I don't think he'd ever come across small business people ever before. | 0:50:00 | 0:50:04 | |
He's only ever dealt, you know, in the top echelons. | 0:50:04 | 0:50:08 | |
The emphasis on the scale of operation came through, I think. | 0:50:08 | 0:50:11 | |
-Yeah. -"We can't afford to look at you | 0:50:11 | 0:50:13 | |
"unless you are sufficient scale to cause a problem." | 0:50:13 | 0:50:16 | |
So we've just got to get out there and get other people signed up | 0:50:16 | 0:50:19 | |
-and show... -Piles and piles more people, yes. -Yeah. | 0:50:19 | 0:50:22 | |
Yeah, the most positive outcome I got is he didn't say no. | 0:50:22 | 0:50:25 | |
-He didn't laugh us out of court. -No. | 0:50:25 | 0:50:27 | |
So he's left the door open, and I think we should walk in. | 0:50:27 | 0:50:30 | |
We set up some offshore holding companies. | 0:50:32 | 0:50:35 | |
And figured out a sneaky trick... | 0:50:35 | 0:50:37 | |
The viral video has reached hundreds of thousands of people. | 0:50:37 | 0:50:40 | |
Thanks, Facebook! | 0:50:40 | 0:50:42 | |
Crickhowell is trending on Facebook, and will be trending soon, | 0:50:42 | 0:50:46 | |
I'm sure, on twitter. So that's very cool. | 0:50:46 | 0:50:49 | |
-I don't know what trending is. -THEY LAUGH | 0:50:49 | 0:50:51 | |
He's got most of the facts. Turn to page three. | 0:50:51 | 0:50:54 | |
Half a page! Wow! | 0:50:54 | 0:50:56 | |
And it's even been picked up by the press. | 0:50:56 | 0:50:59 | |
That's a bad picture, isn't it? | 0:51:00 | 0:51:01 | |
They don't send their own photographers, the FT! | 0:51:01 | 0:51:04 | |
-You wondered what your mum was up to. -Yeah. | 0:51:04 | 0:51:07 | |
Your mother is a revolutionary! | 0:51:07 | 0:51:09 | |
Little Crickhowell is suddenly in the middle of a media frenzy. | 0:51:10 | 0:51:14 | |
But there are some sceptical voices out there. | 0:51:16 | 0:51:19 | |
-RADIO: -'Let's talk to Richard Murphy, who is director of Tax Research UK, | 0:51:19 | 0:51:23 | |
'who says this is an irresponsible stunt. | 0:51:23 | 0:51:25 | |
'What do you think HMRC may do? | 0:51:25 | 0:51:27 | |
'There are a whole host of weapons the Revenue have got to beat this. | 0:51:27 | 0:51:30 | |
'So it isn't going to work. | 0:51:30 | 0:51:32 | |
'And that's really what I'm saying - | 0:51:32 | 0:51:34 | |
'why do something which is not really going to achieve the goal?' | 0:51:34 | 0:51:38 | |
If they're really going to take on the taxman | 0:51:40 | 0:51:42 | |
and put the scheme into action, | 0:51:42 | 0:51:43 | |
they're going to need some pretty heavyweight backing. | 0:51:43 | 0:51:47 | |
Steve's got a meeting with one of the country's top tax barristers. | 0:51:47 | 0:51:50 | |
-Steve. -Jolyon, nice to meet you. It's a pleasure. | 0:51:54 | 0:51:57 | |
'Jolyon Maugham QC doesn't devise tax schemes, | 0:51:57 | 0:52:00 | |
'but defends them when HMRC challenges them in court. | 0:52:00 | 0:52:04 | |
Typically, QCs like Jolyon charge between five and 40 grand a day. | 0:52:04 | 0:52:08 | |
OK. So, technically, in what we've put together here, | 0:52:10 | 0:52:12 | |
would that pass the scrutiny of HMRC? | 0:52:12 | 0:52:16 | |
The structure is very similar, in a simplified form, | 0:52:16 | 0:52:21 | |
to a lot of the structures that multinationals put in place. | 0:52:21 | 0:52:26 | |
And, you know, you will have some arguments with the Revenue. | 0:52:26 | 0:52:29 | |
Of course. | 0:52:29 | 0:52:30 | |
And I'm not guaranteeing that you'll win those arguments, | 0:52:30 | 0:52:33 | |
but you've got perfectly sensible, arguable points. | 0:52:33 | 0:52:36 | |
You've got a perfectly sensible, arguable case | 0:52:36 | 0:52:39 | |
that you have reduced your tax liability | 0:52:39 | 0:52:42 | |
in consequence of entering into these transactions. | 0:52:42 | 0:52:45 | |
I'll put my cards on the table now. | 0:52:45 | 0:52:46 | |
I didn't for one second expect we'd get this far. | 0:52:46 | 0:52:50 | |
I mean, we went on this journey of discovery. | 0:52:50 | 0:52:52 | |
We're now at a place where we clearly have got something | 0:52:52 | 0:52:56 | |
that is viable, but is going to have some battles to fight. | 0:52:56 | 0:52:59 | |
What's the next step? | 0:52:59 | 0:53:01 | |
You, the coffee shop, put in your annual tax return. | 0:53:01 | 0:53:05 | |
And your tax liability last year might have been 100 | 0:53:05 | 0:53:09 | |
-but, this year, it will be 20. -Yeah. | 0:53:09 | 0:53:11 | |
That's fine. That will raise a flag. | 0:53:11 | 0:53:13 | |
It will with my accountant as well! | 0:53:13 | 0:53:15 | |
It will raise a flag with your accountant as well. | 0:53:15 | 0:53:17 | |
And HMRC will open an enquiry. | 0:53:17 | 0:53:21 | |
HMRC cannot and will not allow that return to go unchecked. | 0:53:21 | 0:53:26 | |
So you then go to the tax tribunal, | 0:53:26 | 0:53:29 | |
you have a row before specialist tax judges. | 0:53:29 | 0:53:32 | |
Perfectly possible, even probable | 0:53:32 | 0:53:34 | |
that you wouldn't be in a tax tribunal inside three or four years. | 0:53:34 | 0:53:38 | |
Really? | 0:53:38 | 0:53:39 | |
It's a long, arduous, painful process. | 0:53:39 | 0:53:44 | |
But I do relentless, I'm comfortable with that. | 0:53:44 | 0:53:47 | |
-JOLYON CHUCKLES -I'll go the distance. | 0:53:47 | 0:53:49 | |
-They're going to really hate you. -THEY LAUGH | 0:53:49 | 0:53:52 | |
-I'm all for it. And they can come on down. -Yeah. | 0:53:52 | 0:53:56 | |
Yeah, great. | 0:53:56 | 0:53:57 | |
Well, I'm excited. I'm really pumped up. | 0:54:01 | 0:54:04 | |
Now I'd like to fight the legal battle, | 0:54:04 | 0:54:06 | |
and really try and change tax law. | 0:54:06 | 0:54:09 | |
So you're moving from the theoretical into the very practical. | 0:54:09 | 0:54:12 | |
And possibly creating transformational change | 0:54:12 | 0:54:15 | |
in the tax system in Britain. | 0:54:15 | 0:54:17 | |
Back in Crickhowell, it's the Christmas market. | 0:54:21 | 0:54:24 | |
And not even the weather can drown Steve's enthusiasm. | 0:54:24 | 0:54:27 | |
Do you know about Fair Tax Town? | 0:54:28 | 0:54:31 | |
And there's a surprise. | 0:54:31 | 0:54:32 | |
Irena's back to join Steve on the campaign trail. | 0:54:32 | 0:54:36 | |
What we're doing is we're getting 500 towns in Britain... | 0:54:36 | 0:54:39 | |
We just want the high street not to disappear! | 0:54:39 | 0:54:42 | |
She's realised that, although they SEEM to be doing the same thing | 0:54:42 | 0:54:45 | |
as the multinationals, in fact, they are doing it for different reasons. | 0:54:45 | 0:54:49 | |
-It's not OK... -Yeah! -..for Facebook to avoid tax. | 0:54:49 | 0:54:52 | |
'Me and Steve, we've just accepted each other as we are. | 0:54:52 | 0:54:57 | |
'He's actually much softer than he tries to show. | 0:54:57 | 0:55:00 | |
'He's very soft, Steve.' | 0:55:00 | 0:55:03 | |
-So that's the plan. -That's our plan. | 0:55:03 | 0:55:05 | |
So rather than beating the boys, you're kind of joining them? | 0:55:05 | 0:55:08 | |
-Well, what we're doing... -No, we're not. We're not joining them. | 0:55:08 | 0:55:10 | |
-We're never going to avoid tax. -That's the important bit. | 0:55:10 | 0:55:13 | |
-We are paying tax. -Well... | 0:55:13 | 0:55:15 | |
It's how all good protests start. | 0:55:15 | 0:55:17 | |
And the movement is starting to spread to other towns. | 0:55:20 | 0:55:23 | |
We're Blazing Saddles of Hebden Bridge, | 0:55:23 | 0:55:25 | |
and we support the Fair Tax Town movement. | 0:55:25 | 0:55:28 | |
Sowerby Bridge is supporting the Fair Tax Town movement. | 0:55:29 | 0:55:33 | |
I'm off to Crickhowell one last time. | 0:55:40 | 0:55:43 | |
It has been an incredible journey. | 0:55:43 | 0:55:45 | |
This idea might have started as my silly experiment, | 0:55:46 | 0:55:49 | |
but the Crickhowellians have really turned it into their battle. | 0:55:49 | 0:55:53 | |
And I've come to understand | 0:55:53 | 0:55:55 | |
why this battle is so important for Crickhowellians, | 0:55:55 | 0:55:58 | |
because the multinationals, with their tax advantages, | 0:55:58 | 0:56:00 | |
are never very far away from high streets like that. | 0:56:00 | 0:56:04 | |
And they're a dying breed. They are constantly in jeopardy. | 0:56:04 | 0:56:07 | |
So it is an important fight, not just for high streets like that | 0:56:07 | 0:56:10 | |
but also for the entire country. | 0:56:10 | 0:56:11 | |
Because, as they keep saying, | 0:56:11 | 0:56:13 | |
tax does pay for some quite important things, | 0:56:13 | 0:56:15 | |
like schools and roads and hospitals. | 0:56:15 | 0:56:17 | |
And I've got a feeling that these guys aren't going to back down. | 0:56:17 | 0:56:21 | |
-Hey! -Hey. -Nice to see you. -How are you? | 0:56:25 | 0:56:27 | |
-Hello! How are you? -Nice to see you. | 0:56:27 | 0:56:31 | |
Nice to see you. | 0:56:31 | 0:56:32 | |
'The whole team's got together at Steve's for end-of-year drinks.' | 0:56:32 | 0:56:37 | |
'We live in a sort of charade economy, | 0:56:37 | 0:56:39 | |
'whereby ordinary people pay their tax.' | 0:56:39 | 0:56:43 | |
But big business, that's earning far more than anybody else, | 0:56:43 | 0:56:46 | |
doesn't pay any. So I'm pleased to be doing something about it. | 0:56:46 | 0:56:49 | |
Cos it's so grossly unfair. | 0:56:49 | 0:56:51 | |
'Their big plan for the New Year | 0:56:52 | 0:56:54 | |
'is to recruit as many more Fair Tax Towns as possible. | 0:56:54 | 0:56:58 | |
'They want real clout with HMRC and, if nothing changes, | 0:56:58 | 0:57:02 | |
'the threat's there - | 0:57:02 | 0:57:03 | |
'the tax scheme will go into action for real.' | 0:57:03 | 0:57:07 | |
'What I really hope is that this campaign that we started' | 0:57:08 | 0:57:14 | |
is actually going to make a real difference, | 0:57:14 | 0:57:16 | |
and that we really might be able to convince | 0:57:16 | 0:57:19 | |
the Government that they really should change the tax laws, | 0:57:19 | 0:57:22 | |
and make a more even playing field for high-street businesses. | 0:57:22 | 0:57:27 | |
Shall we just have a toast for Crickhowell | 0:57:27 | 0:57:31 | |
and the Fair Tax Town campaign? | 0:57:31 | 0:57:34 | |
-ALL: -Cheers! | 0:57:34 | 0:57:36 | |
To misquote Churchill, it is not the beginning of the end. | 0:57:36 | 0:57:40 | |
It is just the end of the beginning, | 0:57:41 | 0:57:43 | |
as far as Fair Tax Town, universally spread through Britain, goes. | 0:57:43 | 0:57:48 | |
-ALL: -Cheers. | 0:57:49 | 0:57:51 | |
Well done. | 0:57:51 | 0:57:52 |