The Town That Took on the Taxman


The Town That Took on the Taxman

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Transcript


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RADIO: 'Good morning. This is BBC Radio Wales.

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'Today, some businesses in Crickhowell are trying to use

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'the same loopholes as big, multinational companies.'

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Welcome to Crickhowell.

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A picturesque little town nestled in the Welsh Brecon Beacons.

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It's an unlikely home for the start of a national revolt.

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RADIO: 'Businesses in a Welsh town are trying to use...'

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The local traders are up in arms.

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It really gets up your nose that other people who should be paying

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a vast amount of corporation tax don't pay anything.

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It's just about fair play.

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They are sick of seeing the taxman let so many of their multinational

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rivals get away with tiny tax bills

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whilst forcing them to pay the full whack.

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I don't have an issue with taxation,

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I have an issue with the fact it can be avoided

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if you've got a bigger lawyer and a bigger accountant than I have.

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So, they've decided to tackle the taxman head on.

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They're on a mission to investigate the tax tricks

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of their multinational competitors...

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I'm getting frustrated now. I want to go and find out.

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..and see if they, too, can legally avoid tax.

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So, it's a scam?

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No, it's a trick and it's completely legal.

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How amazing was that?!

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Outrageous!

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The journey will take them to tax havens...

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It used to be known as the street that's shady on both sides

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and I don't think it's cos the sun didn't get here.

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..tax lawyers...

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I mean, taxes, in my opinion, they are a choice.

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And even the taxman himself.

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You may find a business model coming your way

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where you and I get much, much closer.

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LAUGHTER

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But will it split the town?

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If you're not with me, you're against me.

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-I didn't say that.

-It's exactly...

-I didn't say that.

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I said don't just get in my way.

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Can these small businesses pull off something this big?

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It is a licence to print cash.

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Take a bite of that and see how nice that is

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because you know you've paid fair tax.

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And will this be the spark

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that forces the multinationals to pay more tax?

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And, before you know it, you've suddenly got a movement.

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I'm Heydon Prowse. I'm a journalist and a comedian.

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Recently, I've been looking at how multinationals

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avoid paying their fair share of tax

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and I want to try out what I think is quite a funny idea.

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What if a town full of small businesses tries to play

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by the same rules as the big boys?

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Could it ever work?

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Could we take a small town offshore for tax purposes legally

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or is it one rule for the small guys

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and another for the big multinational corporations?

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I'm off to a place that might just be up for having a go.

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-CHANTING:

-"Crickhowell says no! Crickhowell says no!"

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Crickhowell is a small town, but it's got a rebellious spirit.

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Last year, locals successfully fought

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to keep a supermarket chain off their high street.

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Ah, look! Grenfell & Sons.

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Not just Grenfell & Sons,

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but Grenfell & Sons, and Granddaughter & Grandson's.

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Ironmongers, Webbs & Sons, another family-run business.

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Every single place seems to be different, original, unique.

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No Starbucks. I haven't seen one Cafe Nero

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and I haven't seen one Costa.

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You don't have any chains. You've got no chains, no...

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-Well, we've got Boots.

-You've got Boots.

-Yeah, yeah.

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-And they're terrible.

-Are they?

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-Yes, they wouldn't even put Christmas lights up.

-That's...

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All the town, Christmas lights up and they wouldn't do it.

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This high street is a dying breed, isn't it?

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It is a dying breed, yes.

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-How many high streets are there in the UK?

-Not many like this.

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It's what makes Crickhowell special.

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Big businesses coming onto this high street would obliterate that

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and it would be really sad and I'm a little bit scared that might happen.

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But in this fight to compete with the big multinationals,

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small businesses feel they have one major disadvantage.

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They are treated very differently by her Majesty's Revenue and Customs.

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If anybody tells you running a business is in this day and age

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is easy, they are lying.

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We don't find it any easier to pay the taxes than the big boys.

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Obviously, if we don't, they will come after us big time.

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We are a small business. When the corporation bill comes in, we panic.

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-Yeah.

-Um... You know, and we have to pay by 31st December

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-or we get fined.

-Yeah.

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And then you hear these companies who are actually going out there

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and getting away with...

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I don't know what they're paying in taxes and it really does upset us.

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The taxman gives them no option.

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They have to pay every single penny they owe, or else.

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But it would appear that HMRC isn't quite so strict

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with some of the country's biggest companies.

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Amazon paid just £11.9 million in corporation tax last year

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on £5.3 billion of UK sales.

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That's 0.002%,

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which is bad news for the local bookshop.

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Cafe Nero hasn't paid a penny since 2007.

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Shame for a local Crickhowell coffee shop

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which paid £130,000 in corporation tax over the past five years.

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Last year, Facebook paid around five grand,

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less than almost every business in town.

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Are you guys coming to the meeting later?

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-We would love to support it actually.

-Great! Come down.

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So, will Crickhowell stand up to HMRC

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and beat the multinationals at their own game?

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I've called a meeting in the local town hall to pitch the big idea.

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We just handed out a few flyers

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and we spoke to a few people in the businesses today

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on the high street and it seems there are about 200 or 300 people

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which is great.

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I think I may regret this stupid idea

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when I work out how I'm actually going to pull it off.

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APPLAUSE

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Hello. Hi.

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It's a real pleasure to be here.

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We've been walking up and down the Crickhowell high street all day

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and it's been amazing.

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Some incredible local businesses you have here.

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You've got businesses with three generations of people working in them

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and, more importantly, you have two different representatives

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from two different coffee shops here

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and not a single representative from Starbucks.

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LAUGHTER AND CHEERING

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It's not only that these big corporations are siphoning off

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money into tax havens,

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it's that the savings they are making are allowing them to undercut

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local businesses like yours who do actually have to pay tax.

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Can we do a hands up? Who actually pays tax?

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I pay tax.

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Yes, we all pay tax.

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Keep your hands up if you really enjoy the experience.

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As a whole, small businesses, like ourselves,

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like lots of people here, are the biggest employers in the country

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and we don't get the recognition we deserve.

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And if we all stopped paying taxes, the country would be bankrupt.

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Not just financially bankrupt, but, as it is now with the banks

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and large corporations, morally bankrupt.

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APPLAUSE

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So, what I would like to do with the local businesses of Crickhowell

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is I'd like to work out a way to take you all offshore

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to legally avoid tax

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in the same way that the multinational corporations do.

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I know I don't have the expertise personally and I know

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we don't have the money to pay for very expensive tax lawyers,

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but I vehemently believe, and I'm incredibly,

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perhaps foolhardedly optimistic, that we can do this.

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So, who's with me?

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APPLAUSE

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I appear to have convinced some people that this is a good idea,

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but is it even possible?

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I need to find a core team to investigate.

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We're feeling pretty indignant about the amount of tax

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that we've suddenly found ourselves paying this year.

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Yeah, I would be interested.

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-One of us would be interested. That would be great.

-OK. All right.

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I think there is something in it.

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You get a little group of people, they develop the idea, bring it back

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and say, OK, this is what we've come up with.

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-Then tell the rest of the town how to do it.

-Yeah.

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If the big companies are allowed to get away with paying what

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they think is a fair share of tax,

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the same rules should apply to me.

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-Are you up for it?

-Yes.

-Sure?

-No, I'm up for it.

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I think it will be a good crack, yes.

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I'm not convinced it's going to work,

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but what I am convinced of is that it will get people's attention.

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So, here's Crickhowell's crack tax squad.

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Jo runs the local meat and fish smokery

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with her ex-banker husband, Jonathan.

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They moved to Crickhowell for the good life.

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For Jo, tax avoidance just isn't cricket.

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We didn't start our business to be really rich.

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We've had a lovely time bringing our children up

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on the side of a mountain. That was our choice.

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So, it's not that one feels sort of chippy about income.

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It's much more about fair play.

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I'm not a financial person at all

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and I'm going to go on a very steep learning curve.

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Local coffee shop owner Steve is ex-army and still likes a fight.

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He's frothing about some of his big coffee rivals.

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When you hear these stories of Amazon and Starbucks,

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and all the rest of it, being almost tax neutral, it's irritating.

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It'll be great to see whether there are any chinks in the armour

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that suddenly open up. I think I'll be an asset on this

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because I'm not going to toe the line.

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I mean, I have views and I will express them. They may not be yours.

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Jeff used to be a foreman in the local steelworks.

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Now he runs the outdoor equipment shop with his partner, Jane.

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Well, I'm going to find out exactly how and why and who

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is responsible for this great scam on the British taxpayer

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and citizen really.

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Irena moved here from Russia 15 years ago

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and now runs two successful Crickhowell businesses.

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They call her the local oligarch.

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I think I might be the only optometrist

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and ice-cream parlour owner in the world.

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I will try to be as direct as I can.

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Russians want more direct answers. We want either a yes or a no.

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Every time you see an accountant or a lawyer,

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you get out of the room and you think,

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I still haven't got the answer. Was it a yes or no?

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Irena seems to be up for saving some cash, as long as it's legit.

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If you find a legal way of paying less tax, yeah, it would be great.

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So, they are ready and like all the best adventures,

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this one begins in the pub.

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-Hi.

-Hello, everyone.

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-Hello.

-This is David Quinton.

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Barrister David Quinton used to advise big corporations

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on how to avoid their tax.

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Can he help little Crickhowell do the same?

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I've actually brought something which I can use

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to demonstrate what an uphill struggle it is.

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This is UK tax legislation.

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Ooh!

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No, no, that's just the start!

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LAUGHTER

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Bedside reading!

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17,000 pages of tax law.

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This could be tricky, but will it put them off?

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-I'm not daunted by this.

-Brilliant!

-I'll tell you why.

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-In that case...

-I'll tell you why...

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LAUGHTER

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Let me tell you why I'm not daunted by it.

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-Because, at the end of the day, legislation is legislation.

-Yeah.

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But precedents are set every single day in the courts

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against legislation just as thick as this

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that somebody finds a loophole in.

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All you've got to do is find the loophole.

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You wouldn't have a business if there weren't loopholes in this.

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There wouldn't be tax barristers if there weren't loopholes in this.

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Yes or no?

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Well, er...

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A lot of us would get paid a lot less if there weren't loopholes.

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Exactly. So, that's a positive.

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The little guy, as it were, has a massive uphill struggle.

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Whereas if you're a wealthy, multinational company

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there will be staff at HMRC dedicated to making your life

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as a taxpayer as easy as possible

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and, partly to do with the sheer power of their wealth,

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the government and the revenue have to negotiate with them.

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They don't have to negotiate with you. They can stamp on you.

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Irena seems to have a knack for spotting a short cut.

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Instead of us inventing something,

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can we just look at successful schemes which already exist?

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-What do Vodafone do? What do Starbucks do?

-Exactly.

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That's a really good idea.

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Where the tax havens come in is you think, well, OK,

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if such and such a thing happened in the UK,

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that would give me a tax charge.

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So, perhaps I can make that part of it happen in a tax haven

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without any of the rules in here

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that - bring it back on shore - applying.

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So, the key, as we suspected,

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is to move the profits made in Crickhowell to a tax haven.

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But which one?

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-BOTH:

-Welcome to the Cayman Islands.

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Tax havens are countries that attract cash by offering tiny,

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or even zero rates, of corporation tax.

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Their slick promos look pretty enticing.

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I quite fancy the Bahamas.

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They are stuffed with money.

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An estimated £14 trillion is stashed in tax havens worldwide.

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But we may have to look for somewhere a little less exotic.

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-PROMO:

-'What is it that makes a secret worth keeping?'

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Let's eliminate the faraway ones to start with

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and just stick with the European ones.

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It would appear the Isle of Man has some low-cost options

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so when you're looking at everything else and the costs incurred...

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It provides a very good quality of life providing you don't mind the weather.

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That's exactly what it says. That's exactly what it says!

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# Jive talkin'

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# You're telling me lies

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# Jive talkin'... #

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And, we're off!

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# Jive talkin'

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# So misunderstood, yeah

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# Jive talkin'... #

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The glamorous Isle of Man.

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It's a speck of land between Ireland and Wales

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with just under 90,000 people on it.

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It's given the world TT motorcycle racing,

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the Bee Gees

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and a massive tax planning industry.

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The Isle of Man has an extraordinary 30,000 registered companies -

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one for every three people.

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But how exactly do multinationals use tax havens like this?

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To find out, we have arranged to meet Cat Turner,

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who used to work in the island's tax advice industry.

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-Where are we constitutionally now, in the Isle of Man?

-OK.

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We're not part of the United Kingdom,

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we are not part of Great Britain, but we are one of the British Isles.

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I see some red postboxes, so where does the Queen sit in all of this?

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Ah. The Queen is our head of state, but she is not our Queen.

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It means that when we make our own laws,

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there are a few things that we can do ourselves.

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What is the tax rate?

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So, for corporates, there is zero tax.

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Zero corporation tax in the Isle of Man.

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Back in the UK, our Crickhowell companies pay 20%.

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So, first stop, Douglas - the island's capital -

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to visit the financial district.

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So, this is Athol Street.

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This is the street an awful lot of lawyers and accountants hang out.

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It used to be known as "the street that's shady on both sides",

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and I don't think it's cos the sun didn't get here -

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I think it is because it's where a lot of that sort of planning went on.

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But it's still pretty much the hub

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of financial planning on the Isle of Man.

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Just to ask a question, because you were a gamekeeper,

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-you are now a poacher.

-Something like that!

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I worked for 30 years in the finance industry and...

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To my shame, I guess, that was my job,

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to help people create products that would minimise tax.

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So, classic tax avoidance.

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Planning, savings, whatever you want to call it.

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Spent a long time helping rich people get richer.

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Now, Cat is helping us.

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She says the first thing these guys need

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is something called a corporate service provider

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to set up their own offshore company.

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So that's a corporate service provider.

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That's a corporate service provider.

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There are lots of them. What they do

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is talk to people like you, who need some planning and some structuring,

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set up a company, provide you with directors

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if you don't want to be directors yourselves...

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And there is a corporate service provider right here

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that is home to an investment company that owns the majority of shares

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in one of Steve's big coffee rivals - Caffe Nero.

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We're outside the offices of Dixcart,

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who are corporate service providers and, among other things,

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they provide the registered office for Saratoga Limited,

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which is the ultimate parent for the Caffe Nero group.

0:17:350:17:39

Is Caffe Nero listed as a UK company?

0:17:390:17:42

Some of the operating entities for Caffe Nero

0:17:420:17:44

are UK operating entities, but the holding company,

0:17:440:17:47

which owns shares in those underlying companies...

0:17:470:17:50

-Is offshore.

-..is right here.

0:17:500:17:51

Can we get inside there?

0:17:510:17:52

Cos I want to find out how we do this.

0:17:520:17:55

-I'm getting frustrated, now.

-Let's go.

-I want to go and find out.

0:17:550:17:58

I'll order everyone some coffee. What does everyone want?

0:17:580:18:00

LAUGHTER

0:18:000:18:02

-Oh, hi.

-All right?

-How's it going?

0:18:020:18:04

We were wanting some coffees,

0:18:040:18:05

some flat whites and some cappuccinos,

0:18:050:18:07

maybe a few skinny lattes.

0:18:070:18:09

Is there anyone from Caffe Nero here at all?

0:18:090:18:12

INDISTINCT

0:18:120:18:13

No-one from Caffe Nero?

0:18:130:18:15

I heard we can get some coffee here and take it back, tax-free.

0:18:150:18:18

Steve, do you want to give us some advice on how to do a better coffee?

0:18:180:18:21

Just make sure you don't roast the coffee too high, OK?

0:18:210:18:24

Because you kill the top note.

0:18:240:18:26

Thanks a lot. Cheers.

0:18:260:18:28

Caffe Nero say that they don't use tax havens like the Isle of Man

0:18:290:18:33

to reduce their UK corporation tax,

0:18:330:18:36

but what is clear is that a company here

0:18:360:18:38

can be little more than a doorbell and a mailbox.

0:18:380:18:42

That is exactly what Crickhowell needs.

0:18:420:18:45

But is it possible?

0:18:450:18:47

'Time to make a few calls.'

0:18:470:18:50

We'd like to set up an offshore holding company

0:18:500:18:52

in order so that we can, essentially,

0:18:520:18:55

channel some of our earnings to the Isle of Man.

0:18:550:18:59

We are located in South Wales.

0:18:590:19:01

There are loads of corporate service providers on the island,

0:19:010:19:04

but you have got to know what to ask.

0:19:040:19:07

-I love the phone cover.

-(Try to sound rich!)

0:19:070:19:10

-HE SNORTS WITH LAUGHTER

-Posh accent, Jo.

0:19:100:19:12

Put on a posh accent.

0:19:120:19:14

Oh, hello. My name is Jo Carthew.

0:19:140:19:16

I'm calling on behalf of a group of companies from South Wales.

0:19:160:19:21

At the moment, we have got, um,

0:19:210:19:23

four very successful independent companies

0:19:230:19:26

who are sort of keen to move forward with this.

0:19:260:19:31

So £390 to set it up.

0:19:310:19:34

And then what you are saying is an annual fee structure.

0:19:340:19:37

I thought it would be more than that.

0:19:370:19:38

Well, I look forward to getting your e-mail.

0:19:380:19:41

Thank you. OK, bye-bye.

0:19:410:19:44

You were so nice, he wanted to help you.

0:19:440:19:45

-That was lovely.

-You were so nice, he wanted to help you.

0:19:450:19:48

-Absolutely red-hot! Well done, kid!

-He'll be googling you now, as well!

0:19:480:19:52

APPLAUSE

0:19:520:19:54

Jo has got us an appointment for this afternoon.

0:19:550:19:58

Steve and Irina head off to do the deal...

0:19:580:20:00

# Somewhere

0:20:000:20:02

# Beyond the sea... #

0:20:020:20:05

..and return with Crickhowell's very own offshore company.

0:20:060:20:10

We are going to set up different share structures

0:20:100:20:12

so if we bring other people in later, brilliant.

0:20:120:20:14

We signed the deal there and then. We've got an Isle of Man company.

0:20:140:20:18

It's the next morning. With their offshore company up and running,

0:20:220:20:25

they're off to find out how to move their profits

0:20:250:20:28

from their Crickhowell businesses into their Isle of Man company.

0:20:280:20:32

But they have got to do it in a way that is acceptable to the taxman.

0:20:320:20:35

Who better to ask for advice than the investigative journalist

0:20:410:20:44

who, in 2012, broke the story

0:20:440:20:47

of how Starbucks was then avoiding UK corporation tax?

0:20:470:20:51

He is Tom Bergin.

0:20:510:20:52

One of the very first things I noticed about Starbucks

0:20:550:20:57

and its experience in the United Kingdom

0:20:570:20:59

was that over the course of around 13 or 14 years,

0:20:590:21:01

it had never declared a profit.

0:21:010:21:03

The structures which big companies use to cut their tax bill

0:21:030:21:06

mean reducing the profits onshore.

0:21:060:21:08

That is counterintuitive, because obviously,

0:21:080:21:10

companies are supposed to be in business to make profit.

0:21:100:21:13

But the situation one ends up in is one whereby the company

0:21:130:21:17

looks like it's not profitable, even though it actually is,

0:21:170:21:20

in truth, generating a lot of money.

0:21:200:21:22

Could you give us an example of what someone has done that might fit,

0:21:220:21:26

or that we might be able to slot our concept in with?

0:21:260:21:30

A really common way is through the use of what is called

0:21:300:21:33

intellectual property.

0:21:330:21:34

Now, intellectual property can be just about anything.

0:21:340:21:37

It can be the use of a brand name,

0:21:370:21:39

but it can also be something as simple as...how you flip a burger.

0:21:390:21:43

The way in which you move in a coffee store.

0:21:430:21:46

So, in the case of Starbucks, it had to pay 6% of its turnover

0:21:460:21:49

to an affiliate just for the right of using the Starbucks brand.

0:21:490:21:53

-So, Starbucks was paying itself to use its own brand.

-Yes.

0:21:530:21:57

And the great thing about intellectual property

0:21:570:21:59

is that it's really hard to price.

0:21:590:22:01

It's very difficult for a tax authority,

0:22:010:22:03

because they'll say, "Oh, how do you justify that?"

0:22:030:22:06

They say, "Well, we think it's a reasonable price. Prove it's not."

0:22:060:22:09

So we see this with respect to tech companies.

0:22:090:22:12

Around half of Google's profits go to Bermuda.

0:22:120:22:15

Now, Google doesn't have any staff in Bermuda,

0:22:150:22:19

let alone any programmers, so it is quite clear -

0:22:190:22:22

and Google is open about this - the code is not created in Bermuda.

0:22:220:22:26

-But the profit all ends up there.

-Yeah.

0:22:260:22:28

That's because the intellectual property

0:22:280:22:30

was moved from the United States, where it was created,

0:22:300:22:33

and other jurisdictions, into Bermuda.

0:22:330:22:35

Maybe we could...we could produce

0:22:350:22:40

-a "Visit Crickhowell" intellectual property...

-Brand.

-Brand.

-Yeah.

0:22:400:22:45

-So you unify the whole village under one brand.

-Yes.

0:22:450:22:50

But the whole point is that

0:22:500:22:51

our village is made up of lots and lots of small independents.

0:22:510:22:54

That's what we are trying to market. But they are all from Crickhowell.

0:22:540:22:58

So you have, like, an umbrella company that holds the...

0:22:580:23:02

The marketing...

0:23:020:23:03

Intellectual property of the shopping Crickhowell.

0:23:030:23:06

And then possibly move the intellectual property around,

0:23:060:23:10

because that is the easiest thing for us to do.

0:23:100:23:12

For two reasons - one, because we have such diverse businesses,

0:23:120:23:15

and two, it is a big grey area, cos as you've said,

0:23:150:23:18

when you have your discussions with the taxman,

0:23:180:23:21

it's very difficult for them to challenge reasonable decisions.

0:23:210:23:25

Have we got a board? Oh, let's take this.

0:23:250:23:27

Tom has got more to tell us, but first, a brainstorm.

0:23:270:23:31

What is special about Crickhowell?

0:23:310:23:33

What could be its unique intellectual property?

0:23:330:23:36

Anything goes - no such thing as a bad idea. So, Irina.

0:23:360:23:41

Branding, we like branding.

0:23:410:23:43

OK. Jo?

0:23:430:23:45

Is this, like, word association? You just say anything?

0:23:450:23:48

Anything that you think is connected to IP.

0:23:480:23:52

-Local.

-Local.

0:23:520:23:54

-Orange.

-Sorry?

-Orange.

-Orange?

0:23:540:23:58

Anything goes, remember. It's a brainstorm.

0:23:580:24:01

-It's a brainstorm.

-What? We might patent a colour.

0:24:010:24:05

I think we should think about the things

0:24:050:24:07

that do specifically relate to your town, you know?

0:24:070:24:09

-Family.

-But you need a line that the visitor

0:24:090:24:13

-can associate themselves with.

-Yeah.

0:24:130:24:15

It's a bit like, "Skegness, it's bracing."

0:24:150:24:18

How long have they had that?

0:24:180:24:20

We could say, "No tax, thanks."

0:24:200:24:22

-It's about fair tax.

-It's about fair tax.

0:24:220:24:24

If you're not paying the taxes, we are not paying the taxes.

0:24:240:24:27

-Fair Tax Town!

-Fair Tax Town. Fair Tax Town.

0:24:270:24:29

-Fair Tax Town is brilliant. It is brilliant.

-It gives you...

0:24:290:24:33

It gives you information and it also asks the question,

0:24:330:24:37

-"What is this Fair Tax business?"

-Yeah.

0:24:370:24:39

Then people will ask and say, "What are you trying to do?"

0:24:390:24:41

Two days in and suddenly,

0:24:470:24:49

the team is talking like this could actually work.

0:24:490:24:52

Cheers. Well done, well done. Really good, well done.

0:24:520:24:56

Say, for instance, you're saving yourself 40 grand a year in tax,

0:24:560:24:59

you should be coughing up, say, 20% of that

0:24:590:25:05

into some sort of community fund.

0:25:050:25:07

You could, of course, pass it to the consumers

0:25:070:25:09

so you could actually compete on a better level.

0:25:090:25:12

'Tom joins us for a drink and it is soon clear

0:25:140:25:16

'that it's a little bit more complicated than we had hoped.'

0:25:160:25:19

One of the problems that you have if you just set up a company

0:25:210:25:25

in a tax haven and try and have it

0:25:250:25:27

license intellectual property to an onshore company

0:25:270:25:31

is that you might have additional taxes to pay, in that case.

0:25:310:25:34

I mean, specifically, withholding taxes.

0:25:340:25:36

What Tom is saying is that the Government has got wise

0:25:380:25:41

and imposed a special tax on payments to a tax haven

0:25:410:25:44

for intellectual property.

0:25:440:25:46

It's called withholding tax.

0:25:460:25:48

At 25%, it is 5% more

0:25:480:25:51

than corporation tax.

0:25:510:25:54

So, you'd think the whole scheme would be pointless.

0:25:540:25:57

But you would be wrong. Of course, there is a loophole here, too.

0:25:570:26:00

So how did the big boys do it?

0:26:000:26:02

The most common way is through the Netherlands, the Dutch sandwich.

0:26:020:26:05

-This is a very common technique.

-What?

-The Dutch sandwich.

0:26:050:26:09

OK. Tell us more.

0:26:090:26:11

The Dutch sandwich is basically a way in which big companies

0:26:110:26:15

get around attempts the Government's put in place

0:26:150:26:17

to stop them from avoiding tax.

0:26:170:26:19

Next stop, Amsterdam, to see if Crickhowell can get their hands

0:26:220:26:26

on a Dutch sandwich of their own.

0:26:260:26:28

Unlike the British government, Holland doesn't charge companies tax

0:26:320:26:35

on payments to tax havens for intellectual property.

0:26:350:26:39

No withholding tax.

0:26:390:26:42

Fantastic...for multinationals.

0:26:420:26:45

To find out whether this can also help Crickhowell,

0:26:450:26:48

we are off to see two guys at the Dutch Financial Times.

0:26:480:26:52

We have been told that you are experts on this strange

0:26:540:26:58

Dutch anomaly in Europe,

0:26:580:27:00

that you were the people to speak to,

0:27:000:27:02

and how the system works.

0:27:020:27:04

If you set up a Dutch company, it's Dutch law,

0:27:040:27:09

there is no withholding tax on interest on loans and royalties.

0:27:090:27:15

You don't have to pay any withholding tax.

0:27:150:27:18

Just for my sake, in simple words,

0:27:180:27:20

we have set up our Isle of Man company,

0:27:200:27:22

-we are going to put the intellectual property into there.

-Yes.

0:27:220:27:25

We are then going to start this cycle

0:27:250:27:29

where we set up a licence, sublicence, in the Netherlands...

0:27:290:27:36

-Yeah.

-..in a daughter company...

0:27:360:27:38

-Yes.

-..and then we're going to start the money moving around in a circle.

0:27:380:27:42

-Right.

-Yes.

-That's it.

0:27:420:27:43

This scheme is amazingly simple.

0:27:430:27:46

The key is to set up a Dutch company,

0:27:460:27:49

sandwiched between the UK and a tax haven.

0:27:490:27:52

That company can get money tax-free

0:27:520:27:54

because there is no withholding tax

0:27:540:27:56

on payments from the UK to Dutch companies,

0:27:560:27:59

and with no withholding tax in the Netherlands,

0:27:590:28:02

they can get that money

0:28:020:28:03

to the Isle of Man tax-free, too.

0:28:030:28:06

-But we would have to have a daughter company here to do that.

-Yeah.

0:28:060:28:09

-You need an entity here.

-And what does that entity look like?

0:28:090:28:13

Maybe you can see, there, behind the trees?

0:28:130:28:16

-Yes.

-You see that building over there?

0:28:160:28:19

There are more than 4,000 companies over there, based there.

0:28:190:28:23

They don't have very much room!

0:28:230:28:24

They don't even really have a presence?

0:28:240:28:26

-They are literally an address?

-Yes, yeah.

0:28:260:28:28

-So, it is a scam?

-No, it is trick, and it is completely legal.

0:28:280:28:33

So, how many multinational companies

0:28:330:28:34

are doing this in Amsterdam right now?

0:28:340:28:36

What's the scale of it?

0:28:360:28:37

The total number, it is almost 15,000 of these entities

0:28:370:28:42

who are only in the Netherlands for tax reasons.

0:28:420:28:46

This is what the yearly flow is...

0:28:460:28:50

-My God.

-..through the Netherlands.

0:28:500:28:52

It is almost 8,000 billion euros.

0:28:520:28:57

-Is that 8 trillion?

-8 trillion.

0:28:570:29:00

8 trillion euros a year is flowing through the Netherlands.

0:29:000:29:03

8 trillion in and out.

0:29:030:29:06

I can't believe that!

0:29:060:29:08

I mean, actually, you just wouldn't be doing your shareholders justice

0:29:080:29:12

if you weren't here with a daughter company, would you?

0:29:120:29:15

-You would be stupid!

-It is outrageous.

0:29:150:29:17

LAUGHTER

0:29:210:29:24

OK, we are off.

0:29:240:29:25

Excited by the apparent ease of tax avoidance,

0:29:250:29:28

the team want to find out more.

0:29:280:29:29

Forward, troops!

0:29:290:29:32

Two local journalists, Henk and Martin,

0:29:320:29:34

have volunteered take us on a tour of the city's hidden nameplates.

0:29:340:29:38

Hello. Hello.

0:29:380:29:41

We are here and we are at the office of Subway.

0:29:410:29:45

Can we get a little snap with the name plate, while we are here?

0:29:450:29:48

Hang on, let me clean it for you, first. Hang on...

0:29:480:29:51

Every Subway shop in the UK has to pay 8% of all their sales

0:29:510:29:56

in order to use the Subway brand.

0:29:560:29:58

The money comes through this office in Amsterdam.

0:29:580:30:01

Around half of it is then moved onwards

0:30:010:30:03

to the tax haven of Lichtenstein.

0:30:030:30:05

Why don't you ring the bell?

0:30:050:30:07

We're trying to get a Dutch sandwich,

0:30:070:30:09

we were told to come here, we would be able to get one.

0:30:090:30:13

-INTERCOM:

-Do you have an appointment?

0:30:130:30:14

And Subway isn't the only one.

0:30:160:30:19

We're at Facebook.

0:30:190:30:20

Facebook's scheme is known as the "Double Irish",

0:30:200:30:24

with the Dutch Sandwich.

0:30:240:30:25

Don't even ask.

0:30:250:30:27

Facebook has a very complicated structure.

0:30:270:30:29

It goes via Luxembourg, Delaware, Ireland,

0:30:290:30:32

and the money ends in the Cayman Islands.

0:30:320:30:35

-This is the fiscal office of U2 and the Rolling Stones.

-ALL:

-Aaah!

0:30:380:30:43

It's not just multi-nationals using the Netherlands for tax reasons.

0:30:430:30:48

This office collects the royalties

0:30:480:30:50

for much of U2 and the Rolling Stones' back catalogue.

0:30:500:30:53

Good morning!

0:30:530:30:54

Why?

0:30:540:30:55

Because Holland offers generous tax breaks on artistic royalties.

0:30:550:30:58

-INTERCOM:

-Hello.

0:30:580:31:00

Hello, I was just passing as I'm just here for the weekend,

0:31:000:31:03

and I just wondered if Bono was in

0:31:030:31:05

to sign a copy of my Joshua Tree album.

0:31:050:31:07

Thank you.

0:31:130:31:14

OK, so, the GDP of the world is 87 trillion.

0:31:140:31:18

-87?

-87. 10% of the entire GDP of the world is...

0:31:180:31:24

-In Holland.

-..is going through this country right now.

0:31:240:31:27

-Cheers.

-Fantastic.

0:31:270:31:28

We have beaten it down to the bare bones,

0:31:280:31:32

whereas, before, it was impossibly complicated and people were

0:31:320:31:36

telling us it's impossible to do this, and it's really difficult.

0:31:360:31:40

But, in fact, it isn't. It isn't that difficult.

0:31:400:31:43

I was trying to make it more complicated than it was.

0:31:430:31:46

-I've hardened my resolve, but softened my view.

-Good, that's good.

0:31:460:31:49

And the way it's hardened my resolve is, actually,

0:31:490:31:51

you know, I genuinely want to take this a step further now

0:31:510:31:54

-and really see, OK...

-Yeah, you keep talking about...

0:31:540:31:56

-..let's put it into practice.

-..expanding it.

0:31:560:31:59

And what would it look like in 12 months' time?

0:31:590:32:01

Jeff's scepticism about the project is melting away,

0:32:010:32:04

and Steve is starting to think big.

0:32:040:32:06

You guys could teach other towns how to do what you've done.

0:32:060:32:09

How do you scale it up? That's right.

0:32:090:32:11

-We could sell them the expertise.

-OK, now you're thinking.

0:32:110:32:14

-But they would have to pay a nominal fee for the training.

-To us?

0:32:140:32:19

-No, to us.

-To us, yeah.

-No, you're just making the show,

0:32:190:32:24

-we ARE the show.

-Oh, it's you and us now!

0:32:240:32:27

It's very kind of you, but we'll run it from here.

0:32:270:32:30

Damn!

0:32:300:32:31

It's the next day, and we're ready

0:32:340:32:36

to set up our very own Dutch mailbox company.

0:32:360:32:38

-How's it going?

-Welcome.

0:32:400:32:43

Welcome to the Netherlands.

0:32:430:32:44

Thank you.

0:32:440:32:45

'Time to meet Dennis and Rolf, two men so proud to be part of

0:32:450:32:48

'Amsterdam's tax avoidance industry that they've even agree to be filmed.

0:32:480:32:52

'But will they help Crickhowell outwit the taxman?'

0:32:520:32:57

Yeah, that's absolutely possible.

0:32:570:32:59

It's nice to see some businessmen, and ladies, of course,

0:32:590:33:03

here in our Amsterdam office to, er, to talk about this tax avoidance,

0:33:030:33:08

because that is what we are talking about.

0:33:080:33:11

How is it possible to pay, in a legal way,

0:33:110:33:14

without the boundaries of the law,

0:33:140:33:16

as less tax as possible?

0:33:160:33:18

So the basics that we discuss today,

0:33:180:33:20

and you had a phone-call already with my colleague, Rolf,

0:33:200:33:23

they are clear and they are sound.

0:33:230:33:26

-Shall we set this company up?

-Yeah, OK.

-Let's do it.

0:33:260:33:28

-This one...

-Yeah.

-..and this one, please.

-Yeah.

0:33:280:33:31

'Dutch law says that all companies need an honorary chairman

0:33:310:33:35

'who will come, in person, to Holland each year

0:33:350:33:37

'for the annual general meeting.

0:33:370:33:39

'Seems a good excuse for a regular trip to Amsterdam,

0:33:390:33:42

'so I generously volunteered.'

0:33:420:33:44

It's very similar to what we've done in the Isle of Man, isn't it? Incredibly similar.

0:33:440:33:49

-OK, so, that's done.

-Thank you so much.

0:33:490:33:51

-Congratulations.

-Thanks very much.

-You've got a new company.

0:33:510:33:56

-You're a Dutch taxpayer now.

-Yes.

-Not too much!

0:33:570:33:59

-We should prepare the first shareholders meeting, actually.

-OK.

0:33:590:34:02

You should sit at the head of the table, actually.

0:34:020:34:05

-OK.

-Should we change seats then?

0:34:050:34:06

-Let's swap.

-Yeah, yeah.

0:34:060:34:09

Well, here we are.

0:34:110:34:13

'Our tax squad has done it. The final piece of the puzzle is in place,

0:34:130:34:17

'and we're all thrilled, apart from Irena,

0:34:170:34:20

'who's beginning to have some doubts.'

0:34:200:34:22

I appreciate it's absolutely legal, everyone is doing it.

0:34:220:34:26

Do you feel like you're just doing your job?

0:34:260:34:28

Do you feel like you are helping people?

0:34:280:34:31

-Do you feel like, er...

-The...

0:34:310:34:34

What's your views on the whole system?

0:34:340:34:37

What we are doing, and I am speaking for myself now,

0:34:370:34:41

is really helping people and their businesses

0:34:410:34:47

to be as successful as possible

0:34:470:34:50

by paying less taxes than they normally would.

0:34:500:34:55

What I think is strange is that some people even denounce tax avoidance,

0:34:550:35:00

even before we can even explain how we are providing

0:35:000:35:04

the substance to it, how we are actually creating this structure.

0:35:040:35:08

I mean, taxes, in my opinion, they are a choice,

0:35:080:35:10

an individual choice of every citizen.

0:35:100:35:12

A moral responsibility, in that sense, for me, is like,

0:35:120:35:15

it's make-believe. It's like Santa Claus.

0:35:150:35:17

You have rules which state how much tax you should have to pay

0:35:170:35:21

and the freedom is created by the legislator.

0:35:210:35:24

You should use that freedom.

0:35:240:35:27

The job is done and we are about to head home.

0:35:350:35:38

But first, Hank and Martin take us on a canal trip.

0:35:380:35:40

They want to explain exactly how Amsterdam ended up

0:35:400:35:43

as the tax avoiders' favourite city.

0:35:430:35:46

Amsterdam was the city where

0:35:460:35:47

the first stock exchange in the world was founded,

0:35:470:35:51

and it was a financial centre from the 1600s until now.

0:35:510:35:57

But we've never had a big manufacturing base.

0:35:570:35:59

In Holland, for 30-40 years this century,

0:35:590:36:04

you've led innovation in a number of sectors,

0:36:040:36:07

and if you'd had the moral courage, instead of going for the easy money,

0:36:070:36:12

tax, you'd have developed that innovation economy.

0:36:120:36:15

-You just haven't done it.

-It's not these guys' fault!

0:36:150:36:17

They're just the journalists!

0:36:170:36:20

There's a big hole in the argument.

0:36:200:36:23

-You make your choices in life...

-Yeah, you're right.

0:36:230:36:25

..the Netherlands has chosen to go down a tax route, because it's easy.

0:36:250:36:29

It's an industry! It's an industry.

0:36:290:36:31

I've got four daughters and I want them to be engineers,

0:36:310:36:34

I want them to be creative, I want them to add value to society.

0:36:340:36:38

None of this adds value to society.

0:36:380:36:40

I'm bloody liberal! I'm not left-wing, for Christ's sake,

0:36:400:36:44

you've turned me into a Communist!

0:36:440:36:46

In three days!

0:36:470:36:49

'Behnaz Akbar is here now with the latest weather forecast.

0:36:520:36:55

-'How's it looking?

-Yeah, shivery is a good way of describing it.

0:36:550:36:58

'It's been a pretty chilly night.

0:36:580:37:00

'We do have another dry, unsettled day to look forward to.

0:37:000:37:02

'So, a chilly start this morning...'

0:37:020:37:04

Back in Crickhowell, it's the weekend.

0:37:040:37:07

The guys have time to reflect on the trip with family and friends,

0:37:070:37:11

and also think about what the next move should be.

0:37:110:37:14

Is it easier to just say, "How many companies don't do this?"

0:37:160:37:20

There are office blocks with one or two employees in,

0:37:200:37:25

where 30 or 40,000 companies are registered.

0:37:250:37:28

-It's just crackers.

-It's disgusting.

0:37:290:37:31

The tax lawyer we spoke to at the start of the operation said,

0:37:310:37:34

"Oh, you don't want to do that, it's far too complicated" and everything else.

0:37:340:37:39

But it turned out to be remarkably easy.

0:37:390:37:42

So, basically, all we have to do now is present it to the town.

0:37:420:37:48

If we can get it set up so it's possible for small towns to do it,

0:37:480:37:52

then it just gives us a lot of clout

0:37:520:37:55

in the argument with the powers that be

0:37:550:37:57

that this situation shouldn't exist.

0:37:570:38:00

Irena catches up with her neighbour, Peter,

0:38:020:38:04

who owns the local department store.

0:38:040:38:06

And he's worrying her.

0:38:060:38:08

-But if we all do it...

-Mm-hmm.

-..and we all live here...

-Mm-hmm.

0:38:080:38:12

..who's going to pay for the roads, for the NHS, for the schools?

0:38:120:38:16

There's going to be no services because nobody is paying for it.

0:38:160:38:19

My family will say, "Pfft, don't want to get involved in that,"

0:38:190:38:22

because, how will that reflect on our customers?

0:38:220:38:25

They'll just think we're crooked, what else are we up to,

0:38:250:38:28

and they won't come in the store.

0:38:280:38:30

And they won't come in to your store,

0:38:300:38:32

the butchers, the bakers or anywhere else.

0:38:320:38:34

No, I agree with you completely. I got up this morning and I thought,

0:38:340:38:38

"Do you know what? It doesn't matter what everyone else does,

0:38:380:38:42

"I've got some moral principles," which, it's just,

0:38:420:38:46

that's the way the world works, and if someone wants to drop litter,

0:38:460:38:51

it's up to them. I'm going not to do it.

0:38:510:38:54

Steve has zero doubts. He's come back fired up,

0:38:560:38:59

and believes the tax scheme could really work.

0:38:590:39:02

He's designing a Fair Tax Town brand,

0:39:020:39:04

which he wants the businesses of Crickhowell to adopt.

0:39:040:39:07

We'd be putting the brand identity and the brand handbook offshore,

0:39:080:39:14

and you pay all your profits to buy that brand handbook.

0:39:140:39:18

He reckons that, with enough support, they could be a threat to the taxman.

0:39:180:39:22

Either the loopholes get closed, or hundreds,

0:39:220:39:25

if not thousands of small businesses could go offshore, too.

0:39:250:39:28

I don't want to avoid paying tax,

0:39:280:39:30

I want to create the principle and prove the principle

0:39:300:39:33

that I will do it and make it work, and then you've got a problem, HMRC.

0:39:330:39:38

As Steve gets more determined, Irena gets more worried.

0:39:420:39:45

She fears Steve wants to put into practice

0:39:450:39:48

the kind of things Starbucks used to do.

0:39:480:39:50

To carry out the threat, Crickhowell would have to join together

0:39:530:39:57

and lower ourselves down to the same level

0:39:570:39:59

as Starbucks and other big companies.

0:39:590:40:02

There won't be any tax paid by anybody

0:40:020:40:04

and there won't be any money left for anything.

0:40:040:40:07

Irena has become convinced that if the scheme really works

0:40:080:40:12

they'll just be seen as a bunch of tax avoiders.

0:40:120:40:14

The three of them get together for a crisis meeting, with Jo on the speakerphone.

0:40:160:40:20

'That's the thing, we don't need to say we're doing it,

0:40:200:40:23

'we just need to show that it is possible.'

0:40:230:40:25

It needs to be a credible threat. And credible.

0:40:250:40:27

'That it's possible and credible.'

0:40:270:40:29

I completely disagree, Jo. I sincerely hope Crickhowell would say no to it,

0:40:290:40:34

and wouldn't be in with the bad boys who don't pay any taxes.

0:40:340:40:38

I think Crickhowell should be above it.

0:40:380:40:40

This entire set-up is in an effort to copy Starbucks, threaten...

0:40:400:40:47

-Exactly, you...

-No!

-..you're doing exactly what they're doing!

0:40:470:40:50

We're not doing what Starbucks are doing,

0:40:500:40:52

because we derive no benefit from it.

0:40:520:40:54

What we're doing is, we're copying Starbucks as a, basically, to put pressure on the Government

0:40:540:41:00

to change the system that allows Starbucks to get away with it!

0:41:000:41:05

What I don't want to do is spend an awful lot of time trying to

0:41:050:41:08

persuade people that are vacillating over their engagement.

0:41:080:41:12

If they're not with us, then they move to one side

0:41:120:41:15

and we move forward without them.

0:41:150:41:17

Yeah, if you're not with me, you're against me, is that it?

0:41:170:41:19

-I didn't say that.

-That's exactly what you said.

-No, I didn't say that.

0:41:190:41:22

I said, "Don't just get in my way." Our threat has to be real,

0:41:220:41:25

you've got to be carrying a big enough stick

0:41:250:41:27

to land the blow you're threatening to land.

0:41:270:41:30

And if we don't go there with that credibility,

0:41:300:41:32

we're going to be dog meat.

0:41:320:41:34

Steve is at home with the family, and he's incredibly worried that

0:41:380:41:41

Irena isn't going to be the only dissenting voice in Crickhowell.

0:41:410:41:44

So you've all got to get everyone in Crickhowell to be behind you,

0:41:450:41:49

to believe in what you're doing,

0:41:490:41:51

to trust you,

0:41:510:41:52

and then I think you'll have a big bunch of followers.

0:41:520:41:55

I'm highly sceptical of whether you'll get that out of Crickhowellians,

0:41:550:41:59

-I think they're...

-Maybe you underestimate.

0:41:590:42:02

I think it's full of fragile people.

0:42:020:42:04

But, um... So I'd rather surrender...

0:42:050:42:07

I'm not sure I agree with that.

0:42:070:42:08

No, I know you don't, but I do.

0:42:080:42:10

I love the Fair Tax Town idea.

0:42:100:42:12

But I think you have to widen it to Fair Tax Town where you incorporate lots of other people.

0:42:120:42:17

So I would cast my net wider.

0:42:180:42:20

I am beginning to think, maybe, Steve...

0:42:200:42:24

..is not going to win over any friends if he's being...

0:42:260:42:30

..disparaging about the people in Crickhowell.

0:42:310:42:34

They're not sure whether Steve's the right person to run it,

0:42:340:42:36

because he ruffles lots of feathers.

0:42:360:42:38

Um, but he's certainly very energetic and doesn't give up,

0:42:380:42:42

so in that way he's absolutely the right person.

0:42:420:42:45

But, um, will everyone want to follow? I'm not sure.

0:42:450:42:50

Steve's been persuaded to at least try to win the support

0:42:520:42:55

of Crickhowell's other businesses.

0:42:550:42:57

I will endeavour to explain what we got up to while we were away and what's happened since.

0:42:580:43:03

Irena, unfortunately, can't be here.

0:43:030:43:05

She's got a bit-part in a Bond film.

0:43:050:43:07

LAUGHTER

0:43:070:43:09

Right, OK, well, this is how it works.

0:43:120:43:15

You've sold your intellectual property to the Isle of Man,

0:43:150:43:18

but you can't lease it from there, so you lease it back

0:43:180:43:21

at so much per month, according to what your profits are going to be,

0:43:210:43:24

you lease it back from the company in Holland.

0:43:240:43:26

And, so, you send them money every month,

0:43:260:43:29

and they send the money to the tax haven.

0:43:290:43:32

You can, also, because you've got

0:43:320:43:35

this huge pot of money in your tax haven,

0:43:350:43:39

borrow money from there,

0:43:390:43:41

despite the fact it's yours, but it's not really yours,

0:43:410:43:43

because it belongs to a different company.

0:43:430:43:45

Borrow money from there, and then you can claim tax back

0:43:450:43:48

on the interest you're paying on the loan!

0:43:480:43:50

And pay yourself dividends,

0:43:500:43:52

-and pay yourself dividends.

-And pay yourself dividends.

0:43:520:43:54

And you can control the amount of dividends you draw,

0:43:540:43:57

so you only pay a lower rate,

0:43:570:43:58

lower rate of tax on... It's just super.

0:43:580:44:01

It is a licence to print cash.

0:44:010:44:03

And it happens all the time.

0:44:030:44:05

I'm going to hand some of these... You don't...

0:44:050:44:08

Just share them, because we've got more people here than I expect.

0:44:080:44:11

Can you pass those round? Thank you.

0:44:110:44:12

So, for instance,

0:44:120:44:13

we could sell this to another town.

0:44:130:44:15

UMV Crickhowell, do you want to be like us?

0:44:160:44:18

Well, here's the brand handbook, this is how you do it.

0:44:180:44:21

Fair Tax Town, this is the scrutiny, if you like,

0:44:210:44:24

the little magnifying glass on the big companies.

0:44:240:44:27

This is...allows you to say, take off Crickhowell,

0:44:270:44:30

put in Talgarth, put in Brecon, put in whatever.

0:44:300:44:33

But the fair tax piece is in the middle, and this allows you, then,

0:44:330:44:36

to brand it to whatever community wants to carry it.

0:44:360:44:38

And then you build that as a brand identity.

0:44:380:44:41

And, before you know it, you've suddenly got a movement.

0:44:410:44:45

And that movement, I think, will have a real, real traction.

0:44:450:44:48

APPLAUSE

0:44:480:44:50

With most of the businesses now on board,

0:44:520:44:55

Crickhowell unleashes the Fair Tax Town brand on an unsuspecting world.

0:44:550:45:01

Free cake!

0:45:010:45:02

Free cake this way!

0:45:020:45:04

Thank you.

0:45:040:45:06

Yes!

0:45:060:45:07

Yeah, that's good.

0:45:070:45:08

These are the window ones.

0:45:080:45:10

Right, I think we'll be able to pop it up there.

0:45:100:45:12

# Lazing on a sunny afternoon. #

0:45:130:45:17

-Yes!

-How you doing, Heydon?

0:45:170:45:19

-Look at that, a miniscule piece of tax.

-Whoa!

0:45:190:45:24

Take a bite of that and see how nice that is,

0:45:240:45:27

cos you know you've paid fair tax.

0:45:270:45:29

We've set up some offshore holding companies.

0:45:290:45:31

They even make their own promo video.

0:45:310:45:34

-Does that work?

-Very good.

0:45:340:45:36

Recently...

0:45:360:45:37

Yeah, my brain's gone.

0:45:370:45:40

If it's optional for the multinationals,

0:45:410:45:43

then it only fair that it's optional for us small...

0:45:430:45:46

-LAUGHING:

-She's making me laugh!

0:45:460:45:48

Could Crickhowell be about to go viral?

0:45:480:45:52

Us smalmm...

0:45:520:45:53

-HE SIGHS

-Got the wrong teeth in now.

0:45:530:45:54

We've come together to see

0:45:540:45:56

if we can copy the tax avoidance tricks that the big boys use.

0:45:560:46:00

The big question now is how the taxman will react to our plans.

0:46:020:46:05

There's only one way to find out.

0:46:050:46:08

The team arrives in London

0:46:080:46:10

to meet with Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs.

0:46:100:46:12

With Irena a conscientious objector,

0:46:120:46:15

Emma from the bookshop has taken her place.

0:46:150:46:17

It could be a make-or-break meeting.

0:46:170:46:20

Time to plan how to play it.

0:46:200:46:21

And who better to talk to than an ex top taxman?

0:46:210:46:25

Richard Brooks is now an investigative journalist,

0:46:250:46:27

but he used to work for HMRC.

0:46:270:46:30

He left because he was unhappy

0:46:300:46:32

about the organisation's close relationships with big corporations.

0:46:320:46:35

-We want some tips on what to do when we get in.

-Tips.

-Tactics.

0:46:350:46:39

-Right.

-Tactics, please.

-OK.

0:46:390:46:42

Well, if I were you, my approach would be to say

0:46:420:46:46

that I want exactly what the largest businesses in Britain get.

0:46:460:46:51

Maybe the thousand or so largest companies operating in Britain

0:46:510:46:56

will have dedicated customer relationship managers.

0:46:560:47:00

Well, if they're planning any offshore tax scheme,

0:47:000:47:02

they go to their customer relationship manager,

0:47:020:47:04

they talk it over and they see if they can agree...

0:47:040:47:07

They get sort of pre-approval?

0:47:070:47:08

Well, yeah, they will agree on what the right tax treatment is.

0:47:080:47:11

While they can see large businesses doing it,

0:47:110:47:14

they're probably fairly happy.

0:47:140:47:16

You know, they know what's going on, it's under control.

0:47:160:47:19

But if they see people like you trying to get in on the act,

0:47:190:47:23

it's going to alarm them.

0:47:230:47:24

I hope it does!

0:47:240:47:26

THEY LAUGH

0:47:260:47:27

'So here's the plan.

0:47:330:47:35

'The team are going to ask HMRC for the same VIP treatment

0:47:350:47:39

'that they give to big multinationals.

0:47:390:47:41

'The meeting's with the director general of business tax, Jim Harra.

0:47:430:47:47

'He's the National Tax Personality Of The Year.

0:47:470:47:50

'And the buck stops with him.'

0:47:500:47:53

It seems that big businesses are able to come

0:47:530:47:57

and negotiate their tax terms with HMRC.

0:47:570:48:01

So, really, that's why we're here.

0:48:010:48:03

We'd just like some advice, really.

0:48:030:48:05

The multinationals, from our point of view,

0:48:050:48:07

are both a high-value group but also a high-risk group.

0:48:070:48:11

Our approach is to man-mark them,

0:48:110:48:14

so we put quite a lot of resource onto making sure

0:48:140:48:17

we understand what they're doing, what their tax strategy is,

0:48:170:48:20

the details of all their transactions.

0:48:200:48:22

Is man-marking just a different way of saying "have a cosy relationship"?

0:48:220:48:26

-Man-marking system?

-I don't agree that we have cosy relationships.

0:48:260:48:30

THEY LAUGH

0:48:300:48:31

-The purpose of...

-Just snug.

0:48:310:48:33

No, I don't agree... I don't agree that they're snug.

0:48:330:48:35

The purpose of our relationship managers with large businesses

0:48:350:48:38

is about managing the risk that they pose.

0:48:380:48:40

You regularly sit down with some of the most egregious tax avoiders

0:48:400:48:44

in the country, and you talk about tax competitiveness.

0:48:440:48:47

You regularly do that. We've looked at the minutes on your website.

0:48:470:48:50

It is our job to engage with these people

0:48:500:48:54

and understand what they are doing.

0:48:540:48:55

They are not, from our point of view,

0:48:550:48:57

beyond the pale to engage with.

0:48:570:48:59

We want a level playing field.

0:48:590:49:01

And, at the moment, we don't have a level playing field

0:49:010:49:04

because those sort of conversations are never had with people like us.

0:49:040:49:07

There are about 5 million small businesses,

0:49:070:49:09

there are only about 2,000 large.

0:49:090:49:11

So I do not have the ability to put a named person

0:49:110:49:15

on every small business.

0:49:150:49:17

'It's time to see if Jim will give us the same deal as the big boys.'

0:49:170:49:21

If I could show you a way whereby we play by the same rules

0:49:220:49:25

as the big boys, we put our intellectual property offshore.

0:49:250:49:28

If I can put a system in front of you

0:49:280:49:30

-that meets all of that criteria...

-With a lot of businesses.

0:49:300:49:33

..you'd have to judge us fairly, as you are with the others,

0:49:330:49:36

-otherwise you'd end up in the law courts.

-Absolutely.

0:49:360:49:38

Great. Brilliant.

0:49:380:49:40

You may find a business model coming your way

0:49:400:49:42

where you and I get much, much closer to each other.

0:49:420:49:45

-LAUGHTER

-Ooh!

0:49:450:49:47

Well, that's going to be fascinating... Fascinating to see.

0:49:470:49:50

I'll enjoy a beer with you.

0:49:500:49:52

As I say, I think that's where you'll see that I will

0:49:520:49:55

deploy resources to try and manage that risk on behalf of the public.

0:49:550:49:58

I don't think he'd ever come across small business people ever before.

0:50:000:50:04

He's only ever dealt, you know, in the top echelons.

0:50:040:50:08

The emphasis on the scale of operation came through, I think.

0:50:080:50:11

-Yeah.

-"We can't afford to look at you

0:50:110:50:13

"unless you are sufficient scale to cause a problem."

0:50:130:50:16

So we've just got to get out there and get other people signed up

0:50:160:50:19

-and show...

-Piles and piles more people, yes.

-Yeah.

0:50:190:50:22

Yeah, the most positive outcome I got is he didn't say no.

0:50:220:50:25

-He didn't laugh us out of court.

-No.

0:50:250:50:27

So he's left the door open, and I think we should walk in.

0:50:270:50:30

We set up some offshore holding companies.

0:50:320:50:35

And figured out a sneaky trick...

0:50:350:50:37

The viral video has reached hundreds of thousands of people.

0:50:370:50:40

Thanks, Facebook!

0:50:400:50:42

Crickhowell is trending on Facebook, and will be trending soon,

0:50:420:50:46

I'm sure, on twitter. So that's very cool.

0:50:460:50:49

-I don't know what trending is.

-THEY LAUGH

0:50:490:50:51

He's got most of the facts. Turn to page three.

0:50:510:50:54

Half a page! Wow!

0:50:540:50:56

And it's even been picked up by the press.

0:50:560:50:59

That's a bad picture, isn't it?

0:51:000:51:01

They don't send their own photographers, the FT!

0:51:010:51:04

-You wondered what your mum was up to.

-Yeah.

0:51:040:51:07

Your mother is a revolutionary!

0:51:070:51:09

Little Crickhowell is suddenly in the middle of a media frenzy.

0:51:100:51:14

But there are some sceptical voices out there.

0:51:160:51:19

-RADIO:

-'Let's talk to Richard Murphy, who is director of Tax Research UK,

0:51:190:51:23

'who says this is an irresponsible stunt.

0:51:230:51:25

'What do you think HMRC may do?

0:51:250:51:27

'There are a whole host of weapons the Revenue have got to beat this.

0:51:270:51:30

'So it isn't going to work.

0:51:300:51:32

'And that's really what I'm saying -

0:51:320:51:34

'why do something which is not really going to achieve the goal?'

0:51:340:51:38

If they're really going to take on the taxman

0:51:400:51:42

and put the scheme into action,

0:51:420:51:43

they're going to need some pretty heavyweight backing.

0:51:430:51:47

Steve's got a meeting with one of the country's top tax barristers.

0:51:470:51:50

-Steve.

-Jolyon, nice to meet you. It's a pleasure.

0:51:540:51:57

'Jolyon Maugham QC doesn't devise tax schemes,

0:51:570:52:00

'but defends them when HMRC challenges them in court.

0:52:000:52:04

Typically, QCs like Jolyon charge between five and 40 grand a day.

0:52:040:52:08

OK. So, technically, in what we've put together here,

0:52:100:52:12

would that pass the scrutiny of HMRC?

0:52:120:52:16

The structure is very similar, in a simplified form,

0:52:160:52:21

to a lot of the structures that multinationals put in place.

0:52:210:52:26

And, you know, you will have some arguments with the Revenue.

0:52:260:52:29

Of course.

0:52:290:52:30

And I'm not guaranteeing that you'll win those arguments,

0:52:300:52:33

but you've got perfectly sensible, arguable points.

0:52:330:52:36

You've got a perfectly sensible, arguable case

0:52:360:52:39

that you have reduced your tax liability

0:52:390:52:42

in consequence of entering into these transactions.

0:52:420:52:45

I'll put my cards on the table now.

0:52:450:52:46

I didn't for one second expect we'd get this far.

0:52:460:52:50

I mean, we went on this journey of discovery.

0:52:500:52:52

We're now at a place where we clearly have got something

0:52:520:52:56

that is viable, but is going to have some battles to fight.

0:52:560:52:59

What's the next step?

0:52:590:53:01

You, the coffee shop, put in your annual tax return.

0:53:010:53:05

And your tax liability last year might have been 100

0:53:050:53:09

-but, this year, it will be 20.

-Yeah.

0:53:090:53:11

That's fine. That will raise a flag.

0:53:110:53:13

It will with my accountant as well!

0:53:130:53:15

It will raise a flag with your accountant as well.

0:53:150:53:17

And HMRC will open an enquiry.

0:53:170:53:21

HMRC cannot and will not allow that return to go unchecked.

0:53:210:53:26

So you then go to the tax tribunal,

0:53:260:53:29

you have a row before specialist tax judges.

0:53:290:53:32

Perfectly possible, even probable

0:53:320:53:34

that you wouldn't be in a tax tribunal inside three or four years.

0:53:340:53:38

Really?

0:53:380:53:39

It's a long, arduous, painful process.

0:53:390:53:44

But I do relentless, I'm comfortable with that.

0:53:440:53:47

-JOLYON CHUCKLES

-I'll go the distance.

0:53:470:53:49

-They're going to really hate you.

-THEY LAUGH

0:53:490:53:52

-I'm all for it. And they can come on down.

-Yeah.

0:53:520:53:56

Yeah, great.

0:53:560:53:57

Well, I'm excited. I'm really pumped up.

0:54:010:54:04

Now I'd like to fight the legal battle,

0:54:040:54:06

and really try and change tax law.

0:54:060:54:09

So you're moving from the theoretical into the very practical.

0:54:090:54:12

And possibly creating transformational change

0:54:120:54:15

in the tax system in Britain.

0:54:150:54:17

Back in Crickhowell, it's the Christmas market.

0:54:210:54:24

And not even the weather can drown Steve's enthusiasm.

0:54:240:54:27

Do you know about Fair Tax Town?

0:54:280:54:31

And there's a surprise.

0:54:310:54:32

Irena's back to join Steve on the campaign trail.

0:54:320:54:36

What we're doing is we're getting 500 towns in Britain...

0:54:360:54:39

We just want the high street not to disappear!

0:54:390:54:42

She's realised that, although they SEEM to be doing the same thing

0:54:420:54:45

as the multinationals, in fact, they are doing it for different reasons.

0:54:450:54:49

-It's not OK...

-Yeah!

-..for Facebook to avoid tax.

0:54:490:54:52

'Me and Steve, we've just accepted each other as we are.

0:54:520:54:57

'He's actually much softer than he tries to show.

0:54:570:55:00

'He's very soft, Steve.'

0:55:000:55:03

-So that's the plan.

-That's our plan.

0:55:030:55:05

So rather than beating the boys, you're kind of joining them?

0:55:050:55:08

-Well, what we're doing...

-No, we're not. We're not joining them.

0:55:080:55:10

-We're never going to avoid tax.

-That's the important bit.

0:55:100:55:13

-We are paying tax.

-Well...

0:55:130:55:15

It's how all good protests start.

0:55:150:55:17

And the movement is starting to spread to other towns.

0:55:200:55:23

We're Blazing Saddles of Hebden Bridge,

0:55:230:55:25

and we support the Fair Tax Town movement.

0:55:250:55:28

Sowerby Bridge is supporting the Fair Tax Town movement.

0:55:290:55:33

I'm off to Crickhowell one last time.

0:55:400:55:43

It has been an incredible journey.

0:55:430:55:45

This idea might have started as my silly experiment,

0:55:460:55:49

but the Crickhowellians have really turned it into their battle.

0:55:490:55:53

And I've come to understand

0:55:530:55:55

why this battle is so important for Crickhowellians,

0:55:550:55:58

because the multinationals, with their tax advantages,

0:55:580:56:00

are never very far away from high streets like that.

0:56:000:56:04

And they're a dying breed. They are constantly in jeopardy.

0:56:040:56:07

So it is an important fight, not just for high streets like that

0:56:070:56:10

but also for the entire country.

0:56:100:56:11

Because, as they keep saying,

0:56:110:56:13

tax does pay for some quite important things,

0:56:130:56:15

like schools and roads and hospitals.

0:56:150:56:17

And I've got a feeling that these guys aren't going to back down.

0:56:170:56:21

-Hey!

-Hey.

-Nice to see you.

-How are you?

0:56:250:56:27

-Hello! How are you?

-Nice to see you.

0:56:270:56:31

Nice to see you.

0:56:310:56:32

'The whole team's got together at Steve's for end-of-year drinks.'

0:56:320:56:37

'We live in a sort of charade economy,

0:56:370:56:39

'whereby ordinary people pay their tax.'

0:56:390:56:43

But big business, that's earning far more than anybody else,

0:56:430:56:46

doesn't pay any. So I'm pleased to be doing something about it.

0:56:460:56:49

Cos it's so grossly unfair.

0:56:490:56:51

'Their big plan for the New Year

0:56:520:56:54

'is to recruit as many more Fair Tax Towns as possible.

0:56:540:56:58

'They want real clout with HMRC and, if nothing changes,

0:56:580:57:02

'the threat's there -

0:57:020:57:03

'the tax scheme will go into action for real.'

0:57:030:57:07

'What I really hope is that this campaign that we started'

0:57:080:57:14

is actually going to make a real difference,

0:57:140:57:16

and that we really might be able to convince

0:57:160:57:19

the Government that they really should change the tax laws,

0:57:190:57:22

and make a more even playing field for high-street businesses.

0:57:220:57:27

Shall we just have a toast for Crickhowell

0:57:270:57:31

and the Fair Tax Town campaign?

0:57:310:57:34

-ALL:

-Cheers!

0:57:340:57:36

To misquote Churchill, it is not the beginning of the end.

0:57:360:57:40

It is just the end of the beginning,

0:57:410:57:43

as far as Fair Tax Town, universally spread through Britain, goes.

0:57:430:57:48

-ALL:

-Cheers.

0:57:490:57:51

Well done.

0:57:510:57:52

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